Significant restrictions are being proposed in 2024 Novembers RAC's

slamdunk said:
No, we've never tried an APR on a restricted quota unit.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

They failed before because it was used on "come one, come all" basis.

This APR proposal is a totally new beast.

Whatever the success rates were on say Bookcliffs with unlimited tags, apply it now with limited tags.....THEN we'll compare notes.
Click to expand...

And THEN we can restrict that quota even more! Oh, the opportunity!!!

Can we at least quit claiming that is what this is about?
 
We Need To Get About 5 Or Maybe 6 Different Types Of Units Going For The Different Types Of Deer Hunters!

When The OPPORTUNISTS Destroy Their Units They Are Done!

Then The PISSCUTTER POUNDERS Destroy Their Units They Are Done!

When The OPPORTUNISTSTS That Want Tags Every Year Destroy Their Units They Are Done!

When The OPPORTUNISTS That Want Middle Aged Units Destroy Their Units They Are Done!

We Need A Couple Of YOUTH Units,These Need To Be YOUTH ONLY UNITS,Let Them Shoot Whatever They Want,If they Get Over-Hunted They'll Have To Decide Rather It Goes To A Draw Or Every Other Year Or Whatever They Decide To Do!

We Need A Couple Of APR Units Under hogg_65's Rules,If Somebody Breaks The Rules They Are Banned From Ever Hunting In This State Again!

Once You Join/Enter Your Type Of Hunting You Are In It For Life With The Exception Of The Youth Having To Make A 2nd Choice When They Turn 16!

You Ain't Gonna Change After You've Helped Screw Your Unit Over!

Somebody Is Gonna BAWL!

GIT-R-F'N-DONE!
 
elkassassin said:
We Need To Get About 5 Or Maybe 6 Different Types Of Units Going For The Different Types Of Deer Hunters!
Click to expand...

Don’t we already have that? Isn’t that what premium LE, LE, and general season managed for different buck to doe ratios supposed to be?

That’s my biggest rub Bessy. We already have all types of hunts. But there are some that aren’t satisfied until everything becomes what they want it to be.

I say if you want to hunt bigger, older deer more easily, get in line and go do it! I’ve got no problem with that. If you want to apply for a unit that those deer are hard to come by, and you’re just content with the experience, then go do it. Why does everything have to be pushed one way by these special interests?

This whole proposal will make us all content with accepting the idea of combining all points, or at the very least, you get to apply for general season or LE only, but not both. Maybe that was the plan all along? FUBAR it so badly that everyone will finally accept that provision. It wouldn’t be the first time policy was purposefully driven into a giant cluster to get people to accept what the original goal was anyway.
 
That's Not Quite How it's Been Working!

Anytime Something Good Happens Within The DRATville Deer Herd Every OPPORTUNIST Starts SCREAMING For Another Piece Of The Pie!

Let Them Make Their Own Pie & Eat It!

When They FRICK It Up They Can Live With It!

They Are Not Jumping In To Another Pool To FRICK It Up Too!

Let The OPPORTUNISTS Make Their Own Votes For Their Type Of Units!

Let The Guys That Are Willing To Take A Chance On An APR Unit Make Their Own Votes On Said Units!

Let The Youth Vote On Their Own Type Of Units!

And Etc!

This BS Of A Few RAC's Around The State Turning That Input In And Then The WB Doing Damn Well As They Please Regardless Of What The RAC'S Decided Is TOTAAL BS!

Can You Tally This Up For Me Nilly?

Can You Figure On Average How Many Sportsmen/Hunters Showed Up At The RAC's In A Percentage Rate Compared To How Many Big Game Hunters We Have In This State?

I'll Guess And Say The First Two Numbers Are .00 Might Even Be .000 HELL I Don't Know But I'd Like To Know What Percentage Of Hunters In This State Show Up At The RAC Meetings?

And Then It's All WASTED When Presented To The WB & They Make Their Own Decisions!

SWEET JUDAS!





Vanilla said:
Don’t we already have that? Isn’t that what premium LE, LE, and general season managed for different buck to doe ratios supposed to be?

That’s my biggest rub Bessy. We already have all types of hunts. But there are some that aren’t satisfied until everything becomes what they want it to be.

I say if you want to hunt bigger, older deer more easily, get in line and go do it! I’ve got no problem with that. If you want to apply for a unit that those deer are hard to come by, and you’re just content with the experience, then go do it. Why does everything have to be pushed one way by these special interests?

This whole proposal will make us all content with accepting the idea of combining all points, or at the very least, you get to apply for general season or LE only, but not both. Maybe that was the plan all along? FUBAR it so badly that everyone will finally accept that provision. It wouldn’t be the first time policy was purposefully driven into a giant cluster to get people to accept what the original goal was anyway.
Click to expand...
 
Vanilla said:
And we can go to 9x. I’ve got at least 3 of em. But then we need to ask ourselves “Why?” Who wants this and why will it benefit them? Then I have to ask if I care if those people are benefitted to the detriment of everyone else. I think you know the answer.
Click to expand...
Here is who benefits. The additional hunters who are now able to draw a tag that otherwise wouldn’t have due to a slightly lower success rate. Assuming you are issuing tag quotas based on harvest.

Those same hunters now have a chance at a more mature buck because a few bucks survived the previous season because they were out of range with a 9x.

The detriment of everyone else? Who loses their tag or opportunity in this case?
 
That 9X Is Kinda Supreme To My De-Magnifying 1X On My SmokePole!

Take The Rifle Hunters Down To A Maximum Of 2X Or If They Don't Like That They Can Go Open Sights!
 
Betterluckythangood said:
Assuming you are issuing tag quotas based on harvest.
Click to expand...

You know what they say about “assuming.”

That certainly hasn’t been the practice in Utah. And even when our deer herds have increased pretty substantially, those extra tags you’re assuming will come haven’t come.

IMG_4399.jpeg


Maybe things will change this time though…
 
I remember waaaaaay back when I started hunting elk at 16 years old.

I hunted the Wasatch unit, Strawberry area, family cabin on the Soldier Creek side.

Killed my fair share of branch antlered bulls over the years, even one small barely a 6x6.

Then......

A group got together, familied up with the DNR, made a drastic change and pulled the rug right out from underneath me.

They told me I can't shoot branch antlered bulls anymore.

Guess where I still enjoy hunting spike bulls 30+ years later.........
 
johnnycake said:
Are ya still too chicken to answer straightforward, that you prefer Scenario A over Scenario B?
Click to expand...
I don't owe you anything Cupcake, the guy who gets his jollys off running over Doe's in Daddys big truck.
Nor will I waste another second of my time on you.

FYI......Those 5% two points wasted i mentioned did far less damage to a herd that that one cute little doe with big eye lashes you and Nilly laughed about digging out of Daddy's grill.

Crawl back under your rock.
 
Putting 9x isn’t going change anything. Come on the harvest rate is low 22% it can’t get much worse. Most those bucks are probably harvested under 300 yards.
 
quest said:
Putting 9x isn’t going change anything. Come on the harvest rate is low 22% it can’t get much worse. Most those bucks are probably harvested under 300 yards.
Click to expand...
I agree, most of those bucks were probably harvested under 300 yards and not many guys can pull off a 500+ yard shot under normal hunting conditions, however, you cannot keep improving the range and efficiency of weaponry at the same time while the deer numbers keep dropping without cutting more tags and expect to sustain the quality of our hunting currently. (Poor in general)

The pipe dream of “growing more deer” is just that, a pipe dream. (Delusion) You can help here and there and sustain them and populations will fluctuate but the idea that they increase dramatically is nonsense due to habitat loss alone.

Look ten years down the road.
 
ktg said:
I've gone almost entirely to archery. Restrict archery any more and I'll just go back to rifle. 9x scope doesn't restrict me on a rifle, but if you take compound bows out, well, archery tags will be undersubscribed, which I'm sure the recurve guys will love. How do we restrict them?
Click to expand...

Loin cloths
 
Vanilla said:
Now I’m understanding the hurt better. You feel cheated on. I’m sorry. PM me the address where I can send those tissues!

APRs are dumb. They don’t “work,” and we already know they don’t work.

Weapon restrictions in the name of opportunity when the WB is just going to keep cutting the tags are also dumb.

Grow more deer. Everyone gets what they want. Except the uber selfish minority groups that are pushing these things and convincing some it’s just the evil SFW that is at fault, when those groups will never be satisfied. Ever. They will always take.

But carry on. My position has been and is still clear. These proposals are bad news. I hope they don’t pass.

Get well soon Hossy! I promise I didn’t cheat on ya. But that $81.25 was certainly worth my Pauns tag! (Now go off on that one!)
Click to expand...


Give the junkie a little taste, he's an addict forever
 
Vanilla said:
Now I’m understanding the hurt better. You feel cheated on. I’m sorry. PM me the address where I can send those tissues!

APRs are dumb. They don’t “work,” and we already know they don’t work.

Weapon restrictions in the name of opportunity when the WB is just going to keep cutting the tags are also dumb.

Grow more deer. Everyone gets what they want. Except the uber selfish minority groups that are pushing these things and convincing some it’s just the evil SFW that is at fault, when those groups will never be satisfied. Ever. They will always take.

But carry on. My position has been and is still clear. These proposals are bad news. I hope they don’t pass.

Get well soon Hossy! I promise I didn’t cheat on ya. But that $81.25 was certainly worth my Pauns tag! (Now go off on that one!)
Click to expand...


There's that scene in braveheart where the highlanders finally decided to fight the British, United.


Then the fight starts, and the noblemen ride away, bought off with titles and money.


I'm glad to hear, a pauns tag was the price to buy you off.

Vanilla got a pauns tag, 150,000 dudes oppurtunity.

But, he's the champion of the oppurtunists.


I'll notice you didn't take me up on NOT supporting the anti oppurtunists this year.

Wanna bet on if Carl Albrecht is a $fw member?

The guy you're so "concerned with.

Keep digging
 
Ok Hossy I'll play.
Contributions to Convention/SFW = 0 Not a penny.
DH- I'm one. Deer taken on a DH tag the last 9 years =0
No LL
Why I've had a tag for the last 58 years? Because it is perceived as a subprime unit and I've made choices.
But it is not me who is asking for APR or weapon restrictions. Why am I not complaining? Because I have not had to wait multiple years for a tag.
You want to experiment with APR's and weapon restrictions have at it. Start with the 3+ point units.
 
So on these APR units, you'll have the youth knocking the crap out of the yearling bucks, along with dads/moms mentoring their kids as a way to harvest a yearling buck on an adult tag. Then all of the other adults will be forced to hunt harder then they did before in order to find a 4 point buck, which puts more stress/pressure/harvest on these mature deer. So basically, what are they trying to do? Let the youth thump the yearlings, and make sure you maximize pressure and harvest on mature deer? This will not end well.
 
Last edited:
If You'll Read Above I've Recommended Different Types Of Hunts For Different Types Pf Hunters!

When Them Different Types Of Hunters FRICK Their Own Units Up They Are F'N DONE!

AKA: DON'T COME A BAWLIN!





waterfowl kid said:
So on these APR units, you'll have the youth knocking the crap out of the yearling bucks, along with dads/moms mentoring their kids as a way to harvest a yearling buck on an adult tag. Then all of the other adults will be forced to hunt harder then they did before in order to find a 4 point buck, which puts more stress/pressure/harvest on these mature deer. So basically, what are they trying to do? Let the youth thump the yearlings, and make sure you maximize pressure and harvest on mature deer? This will not end well.
Click to expand...
 
Vanilla said:
This whole proposal will make us all content with accepting the idea of combining all points, or at the very least, you get to apply for general season or LE only, but not both. Maybe that was the plan all along? FUBAR it so badly that everyone will finally accept that provision. It wouldn’t be the first time policy was purposefully driven into a giant cluster to get people to accept what the original goal was anyway.
Click to expand...
I am not convinced that is the goal of this particular proposal (personally I think it is to pacify a squeaky wheel group/area).

However, I'd sure like to see people have to choose to apply for deer in a single draw (like every other state in the West) instead of multiple point pools and draws for the same species. It would not make more deer, but at least then people would have to put their money where their mouth is.

There would be only one question, do you want to participate in a "more difficult" hunt more often, or a hunt with a higher probability that you will kill less often?

Unless there is a miracle in deer population growth, the days of having cake and eating it too are (should be) over. We can either do it by choice, or let the current way continue to push point creep on LE tags converting them to pseudo OIL tags, and soon GS will become a 1-2 time per decade event for a guy. We are well beyond a point where you can have it both ways. The sooner we (as individuals and a state) accept that, the sooner the bellyaching can be redirected to the new irritant.
 
Vanilla said:
You all can continue to talk about restricting other kinds of hunters all you want. I’m kind of interested in this quote right here:

View attachment 162361

@Packout - tell us more about this. All these APRs and weapon restrictions don’t do much for this. This is what I want to talk about. Help us out. Explain to us what is happening that we don’t know about. How we growing more deer?
Click to expand...
You would think something along the lines of:
-stop shooting so many deer annually until populations rebound.
-manage deer herd for growth/abundance not buck to die ratios
-robust predator control. Offer incentives
-continue efforts to decrease road/highway mortalities especially in core migration corridors
-offer/expand rewards for turn in poacher programs
-continue aggressive habitat restoration and enhancement
-address big game habitat needs/enhancement conflict with sheep and cattle allotments on federal land (prioritize big game over AUM’s subsidized extensively by tax payers)
 
9x is plenty for shooting at 1000 yards. Most guys over power themselves on scope magnification, can’t spot the impact, and then can’t find the buck again in the scope. Rarely do I crank up beyond 8x on game because it’s crucial to actually see where you hit through the scope and correct from there..

There is no way to restrict long range hunting without removing the rangefinder.

Anyways, carry on 😂
 
elkassassin said:
Nobody Can Man-Up & Make Changes That'd Help!

Same Ole BULLSSHHITT This Same Time Of Year & Every F'N Year!

Gonna Make A Change That Ain't Gonna Help Fix The Deer Herd!

And Study It For 5-6 Years!

WAFJ!
Click to expand...

What would you like to do? What changes would help?

Shoot zero bucks? For how many years?

Width restriction with prison time for any hunter that takes a buck under 24"?

Cut tags (even more) so when someone does get a tag once every decade they feel they "deserve" a buck and feel compelled to kill anything in order to validate their wait?

Reduce each hunt to a 2 day season and require the weapon must be fashioned from natural materials and work can't begin on weapon construction till sunrise on opening day?

Just for clarity, all of these are rhetorical and presented in jest.
 
There is NOTHING that you can change about the hunts that will FIX the herds. We aren't killing does on general units. Everything that has to do with changing hunting tactics is about managing PEOPLE, period.

"Cut tags for more big bucks."
"But we want opportunity."
"APRs will give us more big bucks and everyone can get tags"
"The research says that doesn't work."
"It's different this time. Trust me."
"But it won't grow the herd."
"Well... yeah but we need more big bucks (for breeding I promise, not for hunting)"
The chat has ended, please scroll to top to restart
The cyclical argument is exhausting and mind numbing.

I don't always agree with @Vanilla but on this I do. We have LE tags already. General season tags are not intended to be trophy or mature buck hunts. The fact is we've been spoiled by being able to bank points for LE while hunting in our backyards nearly every year. This has pushed point creep to the point that LE tags are so rare that people are searching for another route to big bucks. Spoiler alert... they are still there. Every year (even this year) there are multiple bucks killed on most general units that the majority of hunters would happily slap almost any LE tag on. The catch is that it requires a combination of luck, effort, and time to kill one. MOST people aren't willing to make that trade.

Herd building and health is a biological topic. It should be dictated by..... biologists. I know that this is extremely controversial, but biological issues shouldn't be based on public pressure whether from public forums or from the ballot box (see the Colorado bill that thankfully failed).

All views in this post are my own opinion. Nothing above is intended to hurt any individual's feelings.
 
Ac300win said:
You would think something along the lines of:
-stop shooting so many deer annually until populations rebound.
Click to expand...

I just have to say this clearly: Hunting bucks is NOT a limiting factor currently for Utah’s deer herds.

This is not debatable. It’s a cold hard fact. Until it becomes a limiting factor, reducing harvest by either restrictions on weaponry or cutting tags is simply a measure to grow larger antler sizes. Which has never been and never will be a metric for a healthy deer herd.

People can still want for that to happen, and demand management strategies to do it. But we can’t honestly say it at the same time as wanting the deer herd to expand until bucks start birthing fawns. It’s 2024, almost 2025, so who the heck knows? Could happen.

Stopping shooting bucks is not going to cause the deer population overall to increase. Hard stop. End of story.
 
But YOU Always Want MORE Opportunity & MORE Tags!

I'll Make You A Deal!

Grow Some More Deer!

Then Maybe Issue A Few More Tags For More Of Your Sacred Opportunity!

Until Then Keep Hunting Every Year With Your SPECIAL Tag!

KEEP POUNDIN Them,Maybe It'll Just Fix Itself Magically!




Vanilla said:
I just have to say this clearly: Hunting bucks is NOT a limiting factor currently for Utah’s deer herds.

This is not debatable. It’s a cold hard fact. Until it becomes a limiting factor, reducing harvest by either restrictions on weaponry or cutting tags is simply a measure to grow larger antler sizes. Which has never been and never will be a metric for a healthy deer herd.

People can still want for that to happen, and demand management strategies to do it. But we can’t honestly say it at the same time as wanting the deer herd to expand until bucks start birthing fawns. It’s 2024, almost 2025, so who the heck knows? Could happen.

Stopping shooting bucks is not going to cause the deer population overall to increase. Hard stop. End of story.
Click to expand...
 
Vanilla said:
I just have to say this clearly: Hunting bucks is NOT a limiting factor currently for Utah’s deer herds.

This is not debatable. It’s a cold hard fact. Until it becomes a limiting factor, reducing harvest by either restrictions on weaponry or cutting tags is simply a measure to grow larger antler sizes. Which has never been and never will be a metric for a healthy deer herd.

People can still want for that to happen, and demand management strategies to do it. But we can’t honestly say it at the same time as wanting the deer herd to expand until bucks start birthing fawns. It’s 2024, almost 2025, so who the heck knows? Could happen.

Stopping shooting bucks is not going to cause the deer population overall to increase. Hard stop. End of story.
Click to expand...
You are making the claim that no amount of pressure or or no limit on tags will be a limiting factor on Utah’s deer herds.

Therefore why not make them unlimited and OTC for three years at which point that theory will be proven correct or totally debunked barring some catastrophic winter?
 
I just have to say this clearly: Hunting bucks is NOT a limiting factor currently for Utah’s deer herds.

Correction above ^^^

If this is the case. Why not make tags OTC and unlimited for three years at which point that theory would be proven correct or totally debunked?
 
Buck’s form bachelor groups and the young bucks learn from older bucks and so on. Not all bucks are going to produce big antler. There’s something wrong with the overall health of the deer herd if all you seen are young bucks.
 
Betterluckythangood said:
I just have to say this clearly: Hunting bucks is NOT a limiting factor currently for Utah’s deer herds.

Correction above ^^^

(Emphasis added)
Click to expand...

Words matter. And if you are going to try to call someone out, make sure you pay attention to the words. Especially if you’re just making stuff up to argue nonsense for the sake of arguing.

Betterluckythangood said:
If this is the case. Why not make tags OTC and unlimited for three years at which point that theory would be proven correct or totally debunked?
Click to expand...

Making tags unlimited would be an extreme change from what is CURRENTLY happening, which is not something you’ve ever heard me advocate for. Nor will I advocate for that. Ever. But by all means, I support SFW and want unlimited tags according to this thread all the sudden, which is a weird dichotomy, but whatever…just go with it. Facts don’t matter to people anymore anyway.
 
Vanilla said:
I just have to say this clearly: Hunting bucks is NOT a limiting factor currently for Utah’s deer herds.

This is not debatable. It’s a cold hard fact. Until it becomes a limiting factor, reducing harvest by either restrictions on weaponry or cutting tags is simply a measure to grow larger antler sizes. Which has never been and never will be a metric for a healthy deer herd.

People can still want for that to happen, and demand management strategies to do it. But we can’t honestly say it at the same time as wanting the deer herd to expand until bucks start birthing fawns. It’s 2024, almost 2025, so who the heck knows? Could happen.

Stopping shooting bucks is not going to cause the deer population overall to increase. Hard stop. End of story.
Click to expand...


You are too smart to play dumb.

We can do biology and social at the same time.


Otherwise, we should kill EVERY buck that exceeds the number necessary to breed(12? 15? per hundred)

And, why not allow hunting bucks in January? May? They will have fulfilled their biological necessity of breeding, just as well kill of any in excess .

Of course we control hunters.
 
Vanilla said:
I just have to say this clearly: Hunting bucks is NOT a limiting factor currently for Utah’s deer herds.

This is not debatable. It’s a cold hard fact. Until it becomes a limiting factor, reducing harvest by either restrictions on weaponry or cutting tags is simply a measure to grow larger antler sizes. Which has never been and never will be a metric for a healthy deer herd.

People can still want for that to happen, and demand management strategies to do it. But we can’t honestly say it at the same time as wanting the deer herd to expand until bucks start birthing fawns. It’s 2024, almost 2025, so who the heck knows? Could happen.

Stopping shooting bucks is not going to cause the deer population overall to increase. Hard stop. End of story.
Click to expand...

Notice my first bullet was stop shooting so many DEER, not just bucks. It doesn’t take much time looking to see how suppressed deer populations are in some units and it seems intentional that Utah F&W conveniently post data dating back only a couple decades to compare historic deer numbers. It’s obvious capacity to raise deer in Utah has decreased over time for a number of reasons but riddle me this:

If the objective is to increase the deer population for more opportunity why are so many doe tags being issued when unit populations are well below stated population objectives for individual mgt units. Noted that not all units under pop MO have die tags but a shocking number do.

Last time I checked more does produce more bucks so the opportunist can shoot more yearlings. Isn’t that how it works or has Utah gone wonky
 
Senseless depredation Doe tags need stopped.

My sons father in law receives 4 every year for his property in San Pete that isn't even being used for agriculture purposes.

4 wasted Does every year adds up to an insane amount of deer over time when you assume one doe births two fawns annually for about 8 years.
Not to even factor in what all those fawns create in their 8 year life span.
 

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

6A8E7179-0D4D-42D1-B50E-4CFE080DD0AD.jpeg
IMG_4722.jpeg
57624AF3-104C-46B7-B4C2-0DF00E646FD9.jpeg
498D41A0-AC86-428D-AA44-BEC096F1E3D3.jpeg
1EB7C5C2-E753-4F5A-AD40-5DFE3373291A.jpeg
Screenshot_20240117_040648_Instagram.jpg
11F93D75-DB1E-466A-9165-2732923A67C1.jpeg
Screenshot_20220204-152001_Gallery.jpg
20190709_230821.jpg
PXL_20240924_035959031.MP~2.jpg
ad56f6f9-f32e-4bc6-950e-fa91cfcffa3c.jpeg
IMG_1164.jpeg
Bearpaw Outfitters

Experience world class hunting for mule deer, elk, cougar, bear, turkey, moose, sheep and more.

Wild West Outfitters

Hunt the big bulls, bucks, bear and cats in southern Utah. Your hunt of a lifetime awaits.

J & J Outfitters

Offering quality fair-chase hunts for trophy mule deer, elk, shiras moose and mountain lions.

Shane Scott Outfitting

Quality trophy hunting in Utah. Offering FREE Utah drawing consultation. Great local guides.

Utah Big Game Outfitters

Specializing in bighorn sheep, mule deer, elk, mountain goat, lions, bears & antelope.

Apex Outfitters

We offer experienced guides who hunt Elk, Mule Deer, Antelope, Sheep, Bison, Goats, Cougar, and Bear.

Urge 2 Hunt

We offer high quality hunts on large private ranches around the state, with landowner vouchers.

Allout Guiding & Outfitting

Offering high quality mule deer, elk, bear, cougar and bison hunts in the Book Cliffs and Henry Mtns.

Lickity Split Outfitters

General season and LE fully guided hunts for mule deer, elk, moose, antelope, lion, turkey, bear and coyotes.

Back
Top Bottom