Significant restrictions are being proposed in 2024 Novembers RAC's

[Vanilla]

No, we've never tried an APR on a restricted quota unit.
Correct me if I'm wrong.

They failed before because it was used on "come one, come all" basis.

This APR proposal is a totally new beast.

Whatever the success rates were on say Bookcliffs with unlimited tags, apply it now with limited tags.....THEN we'll compare notes.

And THEN we can restrict that quota even more! Oh, the opportunity!!!

Can we at least quit claiming that is what this is about?

 

[slamdunk]

And THEN we can restrict that quota even more! Oh, the opportunity!!!

Can we at least quit claiming that is what this is about?

Hypothetical....

 

[elkassassin]

I Know That's Been HASHED & THRASHED For Years!

I Never Did Hear The Outcome?

Unfortunately, no…that is not the current state of the law.

But, the battle continues.

 

[elkassassin]

We Need To Get About 5 Or Maybe 6 Different Types Of Units Going For The Different Types Of Deer Hunters!

When The OPPORTUNISTS Destroy Their Units They Are Done!

Then The PISSCUTTER POUNDERS Destroy Their Units They Are Done!

When The OPPORTUNISTSTS That Want Tags Every Year Destroy Their Units They Are Done!

When The OPPORTUNISTS That Want Middle Aged Units Destroy Their Units They Are Done!

We Need A Couple Of YOUTH Units,These Need To Be YOUTH ONLY UNITS,Let Them Shoot Whatever They Want,If they Get Over-Hunted They'll Have To Decide Rather It Goes To A Draw Or Every Other Year Or Whatever They Decide To Do!

We Need A Couple Of APR Units Under hogg_65's Rules,If Somebody Breaks The Rules They Are Banned From Ever Hunting In This State Again!

Once You Join/Enter Your Type Of Hunting You Are In It For Life With The Exception Of The Youth Having To Make A 2nd Choice When They Turn 16!

You Ain't Gonna Change After You've Helped Screw Your Unit Over!

Somebody Is Gonna BAWL!

GIT-R-F'N-DONE!

 

[Vanilla]

We Need To Get About 5 Or Maybe 6 Different Types Of Units Going For The Different Types Of Deer Hunters!

Don’t we already have that? Isn’t that what premium LE, LE, and general season managed for different buck to doe ratios supposed to be?

That’s my biggest rub Bessy. We already have all types of hunts. But there are some that aren’t satisfied until everything becomes what they want it to be.

I say if you want to hunt bigger, older deer more easily, get in line and go do it! I’ve got no problem with that. If you want to apply for a unit that those deer are hard to come by, and you’re just content with the experience, then go do it. Why does everything have to be pushed one way by these special interests?

This whole proposal will make us all content with accepting the idea of combining all points, or at the very least, you get to apply for general season or LE only, but not both. Maybe that was the plan all along? FUBAR it so badly that everyone will finally accept that provision. It wouldn’t be the first time policy was purposefully driven into a giant cluster to get people to accept what the original goal was anyway.

 

[elkassassin]

That's Not Quite How it's Been Working!

Anytime Something Good Happens Within The DRATville Deer Herd Every OPPORTUNIST Starts SCREAMING For Another Piece Of The Pie!

Let Them Make Their Own Pie & Eat It!

When They FRICK It Up They Can Live With It!

They Are Not Jumping In To Another Pool To FRICK It Up Too!

Let The OPPORTUNISTS Make Their Own Votes For Their Type Of Units!

Let The Guys That Are Willing To Take A Chance On An APR Unit Make Their Own Votes On Said Units!

Let The Youth Vote On Their Own Type Of Units!

And Etc!

This BS Of A Few RAC's Around The State Turning That Input In And Then The WB Doing Damn Well As They Please Regardless Of What The RAC'S Decided Is TOTAAL BS!

Can You Tally This Up For Me Nilly?

Can You Figure On Average How Many Sportsmen/Hunters Showed Up At The RAC's In A Percentage Rate Compared To How Many Big Game Hunters We Have In This State?

I'll Guess And Say The First Two Numbers Are .00 Might Even Be .000 HELL I Don't Know But I'd Like To Know What Percentage Of Hunters In This State Show Up At The RAC Meetings?

And Then It's All WASTED When Presented To The WB & They Make Their Own Decisions!

SWEET JUDAS!

Don’t we already have that? Isn’t that what premium LE, LE, and general season managed for different buck to doe ratios supposed to be?

That’s my biggest rub Bessy. We already have all types of hunts. But there are some that aren’t satisfied until everything becomes what they want it to be.

I say if you want to hunt bigger, older deer more easily, get in line and go do it! I’ve got no problem with that. If you want to apply for a unit that those deer are hard to come by, and you’re just content with the experience, then go do it. Why does everything have to be pushed one way by these special interests?

This whole proposal will make us all content with accepting the idea of combining all points, or at the very least, you get to apply for general season or LE only, but not both. Maybe that was the plan all along? FUBAR it so badly that everyone will finally accept that provision. It wouldn’t be the first time policy was purposefully driven into a giant cluster to get people to accept what the original goal was anyway.

 

[Betterluckythangood]

And we can go to 9x. I’ve got at least 3 of em. But then we need to ask ourselves “Why?” Who wants this and why will it benefit them? Then I have to ask if I care if those people are benefitted to the detriment of everyone else. I think you know the answer.

Here is who benefits. The additional hunters who are now able to draw a tag that otherwise wouldn’t have due to a slightly lower success rate. Assuming you are issuing tag quotas based on harvest.

Those same hunters now have a chance at a more mature buck because a few bucks survived the previous season because they were out of range with a 9x.

The detriment of everyone else? Who loses their tag or opportunity in this case?

 

[elkassassin]

That 9X Is Kinda Supreme To My De-Magnifying 1X On My SmokePole!

Take The Rifle Hunters Down To A Maximum Of 2X Or If They Don't Like That They Can Go Open Sights!

 

[elkassassin]

The Average DRAT Eye Is 1.3 to 1.6 Power!

 

[Vanilla]

Assuming you are issuing tag quotas based on harvest.

You know what they say about “assuming.”

That certainly hasn’t been the practice in Utah. And even when our deer herds have increased pretty substantially, those extra tags you’re assuming will come haven’t come.

Maybe things will change this time though…

 

[slamdunk]

I remember waaaaaay back when I started hunting elk at 16 years old.

I hunted the Wasatch unit, Strawberry area, family cabin on the Soldier Creek side.

Killed my fair share of branch antlered bulls over the years, even one small barely a 6x6.

Then......

A group got together, familied up with the DNR, made a drastic change and pulled the rug right out from underneath me.

They told me I can't shoot branch antlered bulls anymore.

Guess where I still enjoy hunting spike bulls 30+ years later.........

 

[johnnycake]

Hypothetical....

Are ya still too chicken to answer straightforward, that you prefer Scenario A over Scenario B?

 

[slamdunk]

Are ya still too chicken to answer straightforward, that you prefer Scenario A over Scenario B?

I don't owe you anything Cupcake, the guy who gets his jollys off running over Doe's in Daddys big truck.
Nor will I waste another second of my time on you.

FYI......Those 5% two points wasted i mentioned did far less damage to a herd that that one cute little doe with big eye lashes you and Nilly laughed about digging out of Daddy's grill.

Crawl back under your rock.

 

[quest]

Putting 9x isn’t going change anything. Come on the harvest rate is low 22% it can’t get much worse. Most those bucks are probably harvested under 300 yards.

 

[Betterluckythangood]

Putting 9x isn’t going change anything. Come on the harvest rate is low 22% it can’t get much worse. Most those bucks are probably harvested under 300 yards.

I agree, most of those bucks were probably harvested under 300 yards and not many guys can pull off a 500+ yard shot under normal hunting conditions, however, you cannot keep improving the range and efficiency of weaponry at the same time while the deer numbers keep dropping without cutting more tags and expect to sustain the quality of our hunting currently. (Poor in general)

The pipe dream of “growing more deer” is just that, a pipe dream. (Delusion) You can help here and there and sustain them and populations will fluctuate but the idea that they increase dramatically is nonsense due to habitat loss alone.

Look ten years down the road.

 

[johnnycake]

Nor will I waste another second of my time on you.

I doubt it. Coward.

 

[hossblur]

I've gone almost entirely to archery. Restrict archery any more and I'll just go back to rifle. 9x scope doesn't restrict me on a rifle, but if you take compound bows out, well, archery tags will be undersubscribed, which I'm sure the recurve guys will love. How do we restrict them?

Loin cloths

 

[hossblur]

Now I’m understanding the hurt better. You feel cheated on. I’m sorry. PM me the address where I can send those tissues!

APRs are dumb. They don’t “work,” and we already know they don’t work.

Weapon restrictions in the name of opportunity when the WB is just going to keep cutting the tags are also dumb.

Grow more deer. Everyone gets what they want. Except the uber selfish minority groups that are pushing these things and convincing some it’s just the evil SFW that is at fault, when those groups will never be satisfied. Ever. They will always take.

But carry on. My position has been and is still clear. These proposals are bad news. I hope they don’t pass.

Get well soon Hossy! I promise I didn’t cheat on ya. But that $81.25 was certainly worth my Pauns tag! (Now go off on that one!)

Give the junkie a little taste, he's an addict forever

 

[hossblur]

Now I’m understanding the hurt better. You feel cheated on. I’m sorry. PM me the address where I can send those tissues!

APRs are dumb. They don’t “work,” and we already know they don’t work.

Weapon restrictions in the name of opportunity when the WB is just going to keep cutting the tags are also dumb.

Grow more deer. Everyone gets what they want. Except the uber selfish minority groups that are pushing these things and convincing some it’s just the evil SFW that is at fault, when those groups will never be satisfied. Ever. They will always take.

But carry on. My position has been and is still clear. These proposals are bad news. I hope they don’t pass.

Get well soon Hossy! I promise I didn’t cheat on ya. But that $81.25 was certainly worth my Pauns tag! (Now go off on that one!)

There's that scene in braveheart where the highlanders finally decided to fight the British, United.


Then the fight starts, and the noblemen ride away, bought off with titles and money.


I'm glad to hear, a pauns tag was the price to buy you off.

Vanilla got a pauns tag, 150,000 dudes oppurtunity.

But, he's the champion of the oppurtunists.


I'll notice you didn't take me up on NOT supporting the anti oppurtunists this year.

Wanna bet on if Carl Albrecht is a $fw member?

The guy you're so "concerned with.

Keep digging

 

[Tikka]

I believe the objective is 12-15 per hundred on any given unit to be considered "healthy".

Someone may clarify....

8-100 anything more than that and the bucks start eating fawns…

Well that’s at least what I heard on a podcast…. Therefore it has to be true…

 

[middlefork]

Ok Hossy I'll play.
Contributions to Convention/SFW = 0 Not a penny.
DH- I'm one. Deer taken on a DH tag the last 9 years =0
No LL
Why I've had a tag for the last 58 years? Because it is perceived as a subprime unit and I've made choices.
But it is not me who is asking for APR or weapon restrictions. Why am I not complaining? Because I have not had to wait multiple years for a tag.
You want to experiment with APR's and weapon restrictions have at it. Start with the 3+ point units.

 

[quest]

It seems to me 12-15 means there’s no surplus to hunt. Even with 17/100 is to low 18+ is just making it. I’d like it to be 19+.

 

[Vanilla]

Hossy, I'll overnight those tissues! Don't worry pal, they are on the way.

 

[waterfowl kid]

So on these APR units, you'll have the youth knocking the crap out of the yearling bucks, along with dads/moms mentoring their kids as a way to harvest a yearling buck on an adult tag. Then all of the other adults will be forced to hunt harder then they did before in order to find a 4 point buck, which puts more stress/pressure/harvest on these mature deer. So basically, what are they trying to do? Let the youth thump the yearlings, and make sure you maximize pressure and harvest on mature deer? This will not end well.

 

[hossblur]

Hossy, I'll overnight those tissues! Don't worry pal, they are on the way.

1262 W W 1450 S Suite 2, Marriott-Slaterville, UT 84404

 

[elkassassin]

So?

Would That Be Hossy SFW?

1262 W W 1450 S Suite 2, Marriott-Slaterville, UT 84404

 

[elkassassin]

If You'll Read Above I've Recommended Different Types Of Hunts For Different Types Pf Hunters!

When Them Different Types Of Hunters FRICK Their Own Units Up They Are F'N DONE!

AKA: DON'T COME A BAWLIN!

So on these APR units, you'll have the youth knocking the crap out of the yearling bucks, along with dads/moms mentoring their kids as a way to harvest a yearling buck on an adult tag. Then all of the other adults will be forced to hunt harder then they did before in order to find a 4 point buck, which puts more stress/pressure/harvest on these mature deer. So basically, what are they trying to do? Let the youth thump the yearlings, and make sure you maximize pressure and harvest on mature deer? This will not end well.

 

[hossblur]

So?

Would That Be Hossy SFW?

 

[Simpleton]

This whole proposal will make us all content with accepting the idea of combining all points, or at the very least, you get to apply for general season or LE only, but not both. Maybe that was the plan all along? FUBAR it so badly that everyone will finally accept that provision. It wouldn’t be the first time policy was purposefully driven into a giant cluster to get people to accept what the original goal was anyway.

I am not convinced that is the goal of this particular proposal (personally I think it is to pacify a squeaky wheel group/area).

However, I'd sure like to see people have to choose to apply for deer in a single draw (like every other state in the West) instead of multiple point pools and draws for the same species. It would not make more deer, but at least then people would have to put their money where their mouth is.

There would be only one question, do you want to participate in a "more difficult" hunt more often, or a hunt with a higher probability that you will kill less often?

Unless there is a miracle in deer population growth, the days of having cake and eating it too are (should be) over. We can either do it by choice, or let the current way continue to push point creep on LE tags converting them to pseudo OIL tags, and soon GS will become a 1-2 time per decade event for a guy. We are well beyond a point where you can have it both ways. The sooner we (as individuals and a state) accept that, the sooner the bellyaching can be redirected to the new irritant.

 

[Vanilla]

About time for people to put up or shut up, I take it?

 

[Keystone]

1262 W W 1450 S Suite 2, Marriott-Slaterville, UT 84404

And gentlemen, thats a mic drop.

And frankly funny as hell

 

[Ac300win]

You all can continue to talk about restricting other kinds of hunters all you want. I’m kind of interested in this quote right here:

View attachment 162361

@Packout - tell us more about this. All these APRs and weapon restrictions don’t do much for this. This is what I want to talk about. Help us out. Explain to us what is happening that we don’t know about. How we growing more deer?

You would think something along the lines of:
-stop shooting so many deer annually until populations rebound.
-manage deer herd for growth/abundance not buck to die ratios
-robust predator control. Offer incentives
-continue efforts to decrease road/highway mortalities especially in core migration corridors
-offer/expand rewards for turn in poacher programs
-continue aggressive habitat restoration and enhancement
-address big game habitat needs/enhancement conflict with sheep and cattle allotments on federal land (prioritize big game over AUM’s subsidized extensively by tax payers)

 

[willfrye027]

9x is plenty for shooting at 1000 yards. Most guys over power themselves on scope magnification, can’t spot the impact, and then can’t find the buck again in the scope. Rarely do I crank up beyond 8x on game because it’s crucial to actually see where you hit through the scope and correct from there..

There is no way to restrict long range hunting without removing the rangefinder.

Anyways, carry on

 

[elkassassin]

So Shutting Up Will Fix everything?

How About Some Smart Changes?

About time for people to put up or shut up, I take it?

 

[Vanilla]

So Shutting Up Will Fix everything?

How About Some Smart Changes?

Some people shutting up would sure fix a lot!

 

[elkassassin]

Nobody Can Man-Up & Make Changes That'd Help!

Same Ole BULLSSHHITT This Same Time Of Year & Every F'N Year!

Gonna Make A Change That Ain't Gonna Help Fix The Deer Herd!

And Study It For 5-6 Years!

WAFJ!

Some people shutting up would sure fix a lot!

 

[Simpleton]

Nobody Can Man-Up & Make Changes That'd Help!

Same Ole BULLSSHHITT This Same Time Of Year & Every F'N Year!

Gonna Make A Change That Ain't Gonna Help Fix The Deer Herd!

And Study It For 5-6 Years!

WAFJ!

What would you like to do? What changes would help?

Shoot zero bucks? For how many years?

Width restriction with prison time for any hunter that takes a buck under 24"?

Cut tags (even more) so when someone does get a tag once every decade they feel they "deserve" a buck and feel compelled to kill anything in order to validate their wait?

Reduce each hunt to a 2 day season and require the weapon must be fashioned from natural materials and work can't begin on weapon construction till sunrise on opening day?

Just for clarity, all of these are rhetorical and presented in jest.

 

[Simpleton]

There is NOTHING that you can change about the hunts that will FIX the herds. We aren't killing does on general units. Everything that has to do with changing hunting tactics is about managing PEOPLE, period.

"Cut tags for more big bucks."
"But we want opportunity."
"APRs will give us more big bucks and everyone can get tags"
"The research says that doesn't work."
"It's different this time. Trust me."
"But it won't grow the herd."
"Well... yeah but we need more big bucks (for breeding I promise, not for hunting)"
The chat has ended, please scroll to top to restart
The cyclical argument is exhausting and mind numbing.

I don't always agree with @Vanilla but on this I do. We have LE tags already. General season tags are not intended to be trophy or mature buck hunts. The fact is we've been spoiled by being able to bank points for LE while hunting in our backyards nearly every year. This has pushed point creep to the point that LE tags are so rare that people are searching for another route to big bucks. Spoiler alert... they are still there. Every year (even this year) there are multiple bucks killed on most general units that the majority of hunters would happily slap almost any LE tag on. The catch is that it requires a combination of luck, effort, and time to kill one. MOST people aren't willing to make that trade.

Herd building and health is a biological topic. It should be dictated by..... biologists. I know that this is extremely controversial, but biological issues shouldn't be based on public pressure whether from public forums or from the ballot box (see the Colorado bill that thankfully failed).

All views in this post are my own opinion. Nothing above is intended to hurt any individual's feelings.

 

[hogg_65]

They have passed both agendas items so far.
Management plan and Restricted weapons, APR plan.

 

[hogg_65]

They have passed both agendas items so far.
Management plan and Restricted weapons, APR plan.

Management plan and Restricted weapons, APR strategies plan.

 

[Vanilla]

You would think something along the lines of:
-stop shooting so many deer annually until populations rebound.

I just have to say this clearly: Hunting bucks is NOT a limiting factor currently for Utah’s deer herds.

This is not debatable. It’s a cold hard fact. Until it becomes a limiting factor, reducing harvest by either restrictions on weaponry or cutting tags is simply a measure to grow larger antler sizes. Which has never been and never will be a metric for a healthy deer herd.

People can still want for that to happen, and demand management strategies to do it. But we can’t honestly say it at the same time as wanting the deer herd to expand until bucks start birthing fawns. It’s 2024, almost 2025, so who the heck knows? Could happen.

Stopping shooting bucks is not going to cause the deer population overall to increase. Hard stop. End of story.

 

[elkassassin]

But YOU Always Want MORE Opportunity & MORE Tags!

I'll Make You A Deal!

Grow Some More Deer!

Then Maybe Issue A Few More Tags For More Of Your Sacred Opportunity!

Until Then Keep Hunting Every Year With Your SPECIAL Tag!

KEEP POUNDIN Them,Maybe It'll Just Fix Itself Magically!

I just have to say this clearly: Hunting bucks is NOT a limiting factor currently for Utah’s deer herds.

This is not debatable. It’s a cold hard fact. Until it becomes a limiting factor, reducing harvest by either restrictions on weaponry or cutting tags is simply a measure to grow larger antler sizes. Which has never been and never will be a metric for a healthy deer herd.

People can still want for that to happen, and demand management strategies to do it. But we can’t honestly say it at the same time as wanting the deer herd to expand until bucks start birthing fawns. It’s 2024, almost 2025, so who the heck knows? Could happen.

Stopping shooting bucks is not going to cause the deer population overall to increase. Hard stop. End of story.

 

[Betterluckythangood]

I just have to say this clearly: Hunting bucks is NOT a limiting factor currently for Utah’s deer herds.

This is not debatable. It’s a cold hard fact. Until it becomes a limiting factor, reducing harvest by either restrictions on weaponry or cutting tags is simply a measure to grow larger antler sizes. Which has never been and never will be a metric for a healthy deer herd.

People can still want for that to happen, and demand management strategies to do it. But we can’t honestly say it at the same time as wanting the deer herd to expand until bucks start birthing fawns. It’s 2024, almost 2025, so who the heck knows? Could happen.

Stopping shooting bucks is not going to cause the deer population overall to increase. Hard stop. End of story.

You are making the claim that no amount of pressure or or no limit on tags will be a limiting factor on Utah’s deer herds.

Therefore why not make them unlimited and OTC for three years at which point that theory will be proven correct or totally debunked barring some catastrophic winter?

 

[Vanilla]

You are making the claim that no amount of pressure or or no limit on tags will be a limiting factor on Utah’s deer herds.

No I'm not. Point to a single time in the many many years and probably hundreds of posts on this topic where I have made that claim.

 

[Betterluckythangood]

I just have to say this clearly: Hunting bucks is NOT a limiting factor currently for Utah’s deer herds.

Correction above ^^^

If this is the case. Why not make tags OTC and unlimited for three years at which point that theory would be proven correct or totally debunked?

 

[quest]

Buck’s form bachelor groups and the young bucks learn from older bucks and so on. Not all bucks are going to produce big antler. There’s something wrong with the overall health of the deer herd if all you seen are young bucks.

 

[Vanilla]

I just have to say this clearly: Hunting bucks is NOT a limiting factor currently for Utah’s deer herds.

Correction above ^^^

(Emphasis added)

Words matter. And if you are going to try to call someone out, make sure you pay attention to the words. Especially if you’re just making stuff up to argue nonsense for the sake of arguing.

If this is the case. Why not make tags OTC and unlimited for three years at which point that theory would be proven correct or totally debunked?

Making tags unlimited would be an extreme change from what is CURRENTLY happening, which is not something you’ve ever heard me advocate for. Nor will I advocate for that. Ever. But by all means, I support SFW and want unlimited tags according to this thread all the sudden, which is a weird dichotomy, but whatever…just go with it. Facts don’t matter to people anymore anyway.