Wyoming Guides can No Longer Scout for Outfitters???

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I think starting this thread opened a can of worms that should have stayed closed. I can't see anything good coming out for Founder from this. Too many eyes on this thread and almost unanimous in their opinion that this theory of finding a loophole is morally wrong.
 
I’ve asked before without answer, name one thing in this country that’s illegal to talk about and divulge location other than a deer in Wyoming?
You can talk about deer locations in Wyoming until your face turns blue Brian, you just can't sell or barter for them.
 
Did you even bother to read my post? A buddy can help a buddy for free anytime they want. And, for consideration (payment) of monetary exchange means directly - physical presence, or indirectly - self guided drop camp.
You're just making this up as you go! Are you some kind of hunting forum expert that knows Title 23 of Wyo Statutes? SMH
 
I think starting this thread opened a can of worms that should have stayed closed. I can't see anything good coming out for Founder from this. Too many eyes on this thread and almost unanimous in their opinion that this theory of finding a loophole is morally wrong.
What loophole? Wanting to know if I need a guides license and be employed by an outfitter to scout for him is some loophole? What are you talking about!?!? How’s wanting those questions answered a loophole?
 
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What loophole? Wanting to know if I need a guides license and be employed by an outfitter to scout for him is some loophole? What are you talking about!?!? How’s wanting those questions answered a loophole?
We didn’t ask you, you asked us.
 
Not to change the subject or pile on, but the truth is interjecting "free market Capitalism" into wildlife management will be the ruin of hunting as we know it. Set-aside and auction tags already take opportunity away from the regular hunter, who up to this point has carried wildlife on his/her back through the North American Model.

Globalhunter, every regulation on the books goes through the public process. We get to scrutinize the regulations and turn a thumb down or up. This isn't the fist of government coming down on us. This regulation was discussed at the Conservation Roundtable meeting comprised of hunting, conservation and yes outfitter groups all together in a room. Take a guess on how many groups supported it? By far the majority agrees with regulation or it would have been defeated at the Commission level. Oh, at the roundtable support was unanimous.

Free Market Capitalism dominates virtually every aspect of interstate commerce already...including hunting! If there was no demand for auction tags, LO tags, guided hunting, finder's fees, leases, etc, none of this would be an issue. We would all have one set price, a price set by the govt agencies, and that would be it. A service was offered, some were willing to pay for it apparently, and a price was paid...just like every single aspect of hunting across the board. Including license fees for example...states keep raising fees (regardless of why) because they know the "free market" will bear it, otherwise they wouldn't or couldn't. All clear examples of FMC.

Sir, my point wasn't to disagree with the outcome of this particular case, I really don't know much about it. I just hate seeing "more" regulation that eventually gets around to effecting us all, and stifles creative, entrepreneurial thinking. I do realize regulation is always needed...it just seems we are often times regulating ourselves to death. My input had nothing to do with the "specific" topic at hand.
 
It seems pretty crazy to write a law because of one single person. Hasty and ill planned laws like this always have a lot of unintended consequences and require a large degree of selective enforcement to try and limit the unintended consequences.

Here is an idea for you Founder, why don't you just charge people to go scouting with you. That way they can help offset the cost of your scouting trips and find their own deer so they are legal.

I don't know if they still do it, but the Eastmans used to advertise the opportunity for clients to pay ti accompany them on "scouting" trips to the mule deer winter range. That's an angle that might be worth pursuing.
 
Capitalism. It’s a beautiful thing most of the time.

Founder puts in the work and sells information. The problem isn’t Founder, it’s the guys wanting to cut corners by buying a location of a big buck or paying for a guide.

Everyone wants the success, but they don’t want to put in the research and hard work. That creates opportunity for someone to make a dollar.

I only wish that there were two record books. One for guys that put in the time and one for guys who buy a buck.
How about the guys that live 2500 miles away and can't put the time scouting?
 
Free Market Capitalism dominates virtually every aspect of interstate commerce already...including hunting! If there was no demand for auction tags, LO tags, guided hunting, finder's fees, leases, etc, none of this would be an issue. We would all have one set price, a price set by the govt agencies, and that would be it. A service was offered, some were willing to pay for it apparently, and a price was paid...just like every single aspect of hunting across the board. Including license fees for example...states keep raising fees (regardless of why) because they know the "free market" will bear it, otherwise they wouldn't or couldn't. All clear examples of FMC.

Sir, my point wasn't to disagree with the outcome of this particular case, I really don't know much about it. I just hate seeing "more" regulation that eventually gets around to effecting us all, and stifles creative, entrepreneurial thinking. I do realize regulation is always needed...it just seems we are often times regulating ourselves to death. My input had nothing to do with the "specific" topic at hand.

Sorry, but you're dead wrong. Interstate commerce has absolutely NO bearing on hunting in North America. Study up on the USO lawsuit and the resulting Federal Legislation that specifically was passed to ensure interstate commerce DID NOT limit the States Right to manage and control hunting. That legislation also reassured the States right to discriminate against NR hunters as well, charge different fees, etc.

S. 339

To reaffirm the authority of States to regulate certain hunting and
fishing activities.



_______________________________________________________________________


IN THE SENATE OF THE UNITED STATES

February 9, 2005

Mr. Reid (for himself, Mr. Baucus, Mr. Stevens, Mr. Nelson of Nebraska,
Mr. Ensign, Mr. Enzi, Mr. Crapo, Mr. Hatch, Mr. Conrad, Mr. Salazar,
Mr. Craig, Mr. Bingaman, Mr. Thomas, and Mr. Kyl) introduced the
following bill; which was read twice and referred to the Committee on
the Judiciary

April 21, 2005

Reported by Mr. Specter, without amendment

_______________________________________________________________________

A BILL



To reaffirm the authority of States to regulate certain hunting and
fishing activities.

Be it enacted by the Senate and House of Representatives of the
United States of America in Congress assembled,

SECTION 1. SHORT TITLE.

This Act may be cited as the ``Reaffirmation of State Regulation of
Resident and Nonresident Hunting and Fishing Act of 2005''.

SEC. 2. DECLARATION OF POLICY AND CONSTRUCTION OF CONGRESSIONAL
SILENCE.

(a) In General.--It is the policy of Congress that it is in the
public interest for each State to continue to regulate the taking for any purpose of fish and wildlife within its boundaries, including by means of laws or regulations that differentiate between residents and nonresidents of such State with respect to the availability of licenses or permits for taking of particular species of fish or wildlife, the
kind and numbers of fish and wildlife that may be taken, or the fees charged in connection with issuance of licenses or permits for hunting
or fishing.

(b) Construction of Congressional Silence.--Silence on the part of Congress shall not be construed to impose any barrier under clause 3 of Section 8 of Article I of the Constitution (commonly referred to as the ``commerce clause'') to the regulation of hunting or fishing by a State
or Indian tribe.

SEC. 3. LIMITATIONS.

Nothing in this Act shall be construed--
(1) to limit the applicability or effect of any Federal law
related to the protection or management of fish or wildlife or
to the regulation of commerce;
(2) to limit the authority of the United States to prohibit
hunting or fishing on any portion of the lands owned by the
United States; or
(3) to abrogate, abridge, affect, modify, supersede or
alter any treaty-reserved right or other right of any Indian
tribe as recognized by any other means, including, but not
limited to, agreements with the United States, Executive
Orders, statutes, and judicial decrees, and by Federal law.

SEC. 4. STATE DEFINED.

For purposes of this Act, the term ``State'' includes the several
States, the District of Columbia, the Commonwealth of Puerto Rico,
Guam, the Virgin Islands, American Samoa, and the Commonwealth of the
Northern Mariana Islands.




Calendar No. 85

109th CONGRESS

1st Session

S. 339
 
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Let me ask the question again. Why is founder not doing this in his home state of Utah. After all founder just wants to help out the DIY hunter. I believe it's because more than anything he wants everyone to see he can find deer in H/G, which helps the cause when mooching points to hunt these units every year.

Want to bet we see the point sharing game go away/changed in the next few years because of people like founder. There are always a few out there who ruin for others. Is it because founder is too self centered to see what he's doing. I say yes....
 
Tracker, hire a guide and go the legal route. Here is a novel idea. Drive out a few days early and scout a before the opener. If it's too much of a burden and you feel you can't have a great hunt without paying someone then I'm sure you could hunt closer to home.
 
How about the guys that live 2500 miles away and can't put the time scouting?
Im, sorry but I see this as the root of the problem. Where you live is a choice, and I do not think the ability to pay should drive policy.

You end up paying some guy so you can level the field a little with the local guy who wears out a pair of boots every summer. The local guy ends up getting pissed because you shot a deer some punk found while he was out spotlighting and drinking beer, and told the local hunting pimp. Who has an outfitters license. And round and round we go.

It reminds me of the drug argument. Dealer or user - whose fault is it?

Founder, you are one scary dude if you pose the single greatest threat to mule deer in Wyoming. Can you use your powers for good and go after woofs?
 
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Im not sure why eveyone thinks it's just about him. No one remembers the website that was trying to get going selling coordinates in every western state? I do guys like this just helped eveyone remeber to get the law passed
 
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Tracker, hire a guide and go the legal route. Here is a novel idea. Drive out a few days early and scout a before the opener. If it's too much of a burden and you feel you can't have a great hunt without paying someone then I'm sure you could hunt closer to home.
What is the “non-legal” route you’re implying? Because I know for a fact what I’ve provided for 4 years is legal.
 
I disagree. I should be able to write a book telling about all my adventures, telling where I’ve hunted and where I saw wildlife. I’ve asked before without answer, name one thing in this country that’s illegal to talk about and divulge location other than a deer in Wyoming?
It’s stupid beyond stupid. They can’t make a law against children saying horrible things about other children and bullying them to suicide, but they can stop someone from publishing where he saw a deer.
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"They" have call sorts of laws that regulate professions. Try jumping state lines and wiring a house.

What you are looking for is a grey area to cut throats of legal buisness. You aren't advocating Wyoming do away with licensing requirements for guides/outfitters. You want your own special exception.

You are 100% free to tell folks where deer are. When You start charging them, you are now engaged in commerce.
 
What's a filming permit on FS to support your "legal buisness" cost?

Asking for a friend
None needed. Feel free to call the F.S., I have multiple times. I can assure you, what I do is done legally.
It’s one thing to not like what I do, but it’s pretty uncool trying to paint someone as a criminal when you zero evidence of such a thing, just wild guesses.
 
I can think of one in particular. Acted like he owned the unit I was hunting in my own state. His wife (ex now I believe) had a tag as well, but nobody was allowed to hunt anywhere close to where he was...

He and and his wife were both NR and he is a "famous" rock star outfitter.
My wife had a tag and the same exact thing happened well they tried to stop us but it didn't work so well for them
 
Maybe you should go back and read the entire thread you created to destroy your scouting business, I will guarantee you the Wyoming Game and Fish is reading this.
I’m in contact with the game and fish about this, that’s exactly the point of the thread. I’m waiting on information from the G&F to clear up questions. He said yesterday he’ll get to it ASAP, but it could be a couple days.
I’d be very happy if they read the whole thread and can answer my questions. I’m guessing they ain’t got time to read all that, but I know he’s read my email and will be able to answer questions soon.
My business is no secret thing, nor do I want it to be. I’m not trying to “get away with something” that G&F is unaware of.
 
None needed. Feel free to call the F.S., I have multiple times. I can assure you, what I do is done legally.
It’s one thing to not like what I do, but it’s pretty uncool trying to paint someone as a criminal when you zero evidence of such a thing, just wild guesses.


It was a legit question.

I know Newberg has huge permit fees. I've heard Rinella talk about it as well. Others as well.

Tv shows pay them. Movies pay them.

Is it because it's not needed? Or because you aren't technically using your videos as an ad for your service?

I have a hard time believing you talked to the film permit office, told them you run a commercial scouting service, and film videos to use for said service, and there was no permit required.

Im sure it is ok for Brian the deer hunter to film. But Founder the buisness, I'm betting has different rules.

But, thats yet ANOTHER of the grey area, loopholes your trying to exist in.

How do you file taxes? Do you have a tax ID#?

How do you insure yourself? If one of your customers hits one of your spots and gets killed by a bear, are you liable? Partially liable?

It's no secret to you I don't like what you do.

1. You are the slippery slope. Started with service like Eastmans. Then comes you. Next will be real time. Then GPS "painters"

2. I have a license, a DBA, TaxID, buisness license, liability, city, state, county tax.
It gets pretty tiresome "competing" with those that don't because "they aren't a buisness", just guys with a "side hustle".

I'm sure your handful of dudes don't do much damage to a herd. But, using your number, each one is a possible $7000 job to a LOCAL guide who pays LOCAL taxes, shops at LOCAL stores, buys LOCAL gas, etc, etc.

Most states have protections in place to protect local buisness. Ask contractors, doctors, teachers, etc.
 
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It was a legit question.

I know Newberg has huge permit fees. I've heard Rinella talk about it as well. Others as well.

Tv shows pay them. Movies pay them.

Is it because it's not needed? Or because you aren't technically using your videos as an ad for your service?

I have a hard time believing you talked to the film permit office, told them you run a commercial scouting service, and film videos to use for said service, and there was no permit required.

Im sure it is ok for Brian the deer hunter to film. But Founder the buisness, I'm betting has different rules.
Again, call the F.S. I did. Why would you think I’d want to take a big risk on getting in trouble? I don’t have the brain of a teenager who just does stuff and hopes not to get caught. I question and requestion. I read laws, rules and understand them before I proceed.
Think a moment, do you really think in 4 years of me consulting hunters that no person has contacted the F.S. and G&F about what I do? Of course they have!!! If I were breaking the law, they wouldn’t have needed to pass a new law!
 
Commercial Filming
A special use permit is required for all commercial filming activities on National Forest System lands. A special use permit is not required for broadcasting breaking news.

Commercial filming is defined as the use of motion picture, videotaping, sound recording, other moving image or audio recording equipment on National Forest System lands that involves the advertisement of a product or service, the creation of a product for sale, or the use of actors, models, sets or props, but not activities associated with broadcasts for news programs. For purposes of this definition, creation of a product for sale includes but is not limited to a film, videotape, television broadcast or documentary of historic events, wildlife, natural events, features, subjects or participants in a sporting or recreation event and so forth, when created for the purpose of generating income.
 
Commercial Filming
A special use permit is required for all commercial filming activities on National Forest System lands. A special use permit is not required for broadcasting breaking news.

Commercial filming is defined as the use of motion picture, videotaping, sound recording, other moving image or audio recording equipment on National Forest System lands that involves the advertisement of a product or service, the creation of a product for sale, or the use of actors, models, sets or props, but not activities associated with broadcasts for news programs. For purposes of this definition, creation of a product for sale includes but is not limited to a film, videotape, television broadcast or documentary of historic events, wildlife, natural events, features, subjects or participants in a sporting or recreation event and so forth, when created for the purpose of generating income.



Don't need to call, there's actually a whole site dedicated to it.
Yep, there it is. I guess instead of calling the F.S. to get facts or even report me, you’ll just make accusations without fact? Come on man!
 
If I wanted to know about guiding requirements in WY, I wouldn't be asking the Game dept, they don't regulate guides and outfitters.
 
Hoss there are many down right stupid laws. Pretty soon you will need a law to take a pee in the mountains. I see this more as protecting WY guides and outfitters who are trying to have a monopoly, IE wilderness laws, etc.
They can change the law of point sharing, but Founder isn't breaking any laws and I doubt he will in the future. He will get his answers and proceed as needed.
 
Commercial Filming
A special use permit is required for all commercial filming activities on National Forest System lands. A special use permit is not required for broadcasting breaking news.

Commercial filming is defined as the use of motion picture, videotaping, sound recording, other moving image or audio recording equipment on National Forest System lands that involves the advertisement of a product or service, the creation of a product for sale, or the use of actors, models, sets or props, but not activities associated with broadcasts for news programs. For purposes of this definition, creation of a product for sale includes but is not limited to a film, videotape, television broadcast or documentary of historic events, wildlife, natural events, features, subjects or participants in a sporting or recreation event and so forth, when created for the purpose of generating income.

Brian, please explain how your now illegal scouting service didn't require a NFS permit. Seems to me what you were doing fits this definition to a "T". You were creating a product for sale using videotape of wildlife on NFS land.

Or maybe that's not how you explained it to whoever you talked to?
 
Brian, please explain how your now illegal scouting service didn't require a NFS permit. Seems to me what you were doing fits this definition to a "T". You were creating a product for sale using videotape of wildlife on NFS land.

Or maybe that's not how you explained it to whoever you talked to?
Why don't you figure it out and then you can turn me in if you think I'm breaking a law, instead of trying to spread a lie based on your uninformed, factless assumption? YOU should educate before tossing around accusations you can't backup. Whether you like me or what I do doesn't matter, trying to spread lies is wrong.
 
Yep, there it is. I guess instead of calling the F.S. to get facts or even report me, you’ll just make accusations without fact? Come on man!


Straight from the FS website.



I know. Another gray area. If you film them for scouting personally, or to put on this site, it's ok.

But if you can do that then on the same site advertise your professional service, is it for the service? Or to share here?

You were the one who was so careful to always say "share" when this topic came up. Because as long as you were just "sharing", the commercial laws and regs wouldn't apply.

This time YOU used the word "worked". In doing so you verified you weren't "sharing", you were engaged in commercial commerce.

I have ZERO intention on being a rat. But I used this as ANOTHER example of the rules, laws, regs, you were skirting past trying exploit loopholes.
 
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Hoss there are many down right stupid laws. Pretty soon you will need a law to take a pee in the mountains. I see this more as protecting WY guides and outfitters who are trying to have a monopoly, IE wilderness laws, etc.
They can change the law of point sharing, but Founder isn't breaking any laws and I doubt he will in the future. He will get his answers and proceed as needed.


I agree. There are tons of stupid laws.

Where is Founder trying to eliminate the regs on outfitting? Or film permits?

He isn't advocating doing away with guides requirements, he's trying to NOW figure out a way to use them as protection for his enterprise. Thus the "subcontractor" questions.
 
Straight from the FS website.
Gotcha. Well, call them, report me, then if I'm found guilty you can talk without spreading lies. It's just not cool man, but I'm not new to the world and know your crowd is out there waiting for your opportunities.
 
Gotcha. Well, call them, report me, then if I'm found guilty you can talk without spreading lies. It's just not cool man, but I'm not new to the world and know your crowd is out there waiting for your opportunities.

100% guarantee if you were jumping through the hoops and putting out the money guides are, you would see your buisness with different eyes.

Why would I call and rat you out?

What lies did I spread.

I posted the permit requirements from the FS. I don't work for the FS so I'd have no idea if you have them.
 
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Why don't you figure it out and then you can turn me in if you think I'm breaking a law, instead of trying to spread a lie based on your uninformed, factless assumption? YOU should educate before tossing around accusations you can't backup. Whether you like me or what I do doesn't matter, trying to spread lies is wrong.
Calm down Brian, I am giving you my opinion on this like others have on this 240 comment thread. Not understanding what you think it is I am lying about?

As far as turning you in, yeah, I don't think so. This whole thing is out in the open and always has been. Not my style anyway.
 
This whole thing is funny as hell. How many f&g laws does Wyoming have because of utards? Hey flounder, just sell bucks in your own damn state. Problem solved. You’re welcome.
 
I disagree. I should be able to write a book telling about all my adventures, telling where I’ve hunted and where I saw wildlife. I’ve asked before without answer, name one thing in this country that’s illegal to talk about and divulge location other than a deer in Wyoming?
It’s stupid beyond stupid. They can’t make a law against children saying horrible things about other children and bullying them to suicide, but they can stop someone from publishing where he saw a deer.
Did you really just compare bullying and suicide to your business of charging money to sell off wildlife? How high on yourself can you get? You CHARGE MONEY to talk about said deer and locations. You are not a good ol boy telling someone info like a friend. You are only doing it to profit for yourself, not out of the goodness of your heart for other hunters. You care about nobody but yourself with your business. And that's exactly what it is, a business.
 
Did you really just compare bullying and suicide to your business of charging money to sell off wildlife? How high on yourself can you get? You CHARGE MONEY to talk about said deer and locations. You are not a good ol boy telling someone info like a friend. You are only doing it to profit for yourself, not out of the goodness of your heart for other hunters. You care about nobody but yourself with your business. And that's exactly what it is, a business.
The guys I help would probably say I helped them. But yes, I do sell the information packages for money, money to pay for my time, gas and food on the hill. The guys I help can't scout for whatever reason and so yes, they are paying me to be their eyes and ears. But I help people quite often who don't buy information packages from me. The information isn't as in-depth as what I sell, but many would say it was helpful.
My comparison to bullying is the fact that it's unconstitutional to outlaw people from saying things on the internet that drives children to suicide, but when it comes to a deer in Wyoming, apparently that is more important and worth defying the constitution.
Government shouldn't be in business of dictating what can and can't be published and sold. I was publishing a report for my clients and selling it to them and if done so now, could go to jail for it because the government doesn't like what I say in that publication. That's what I find ridiculous.
However, that shipped has sailed and this thread is about the new rule and how guides, whether direct employee or sub-contractor, is effected.
 
Im, sorry but I see this as the root of the problem. Where you live is a choice, and I do not think the ability to pay should drive policy.

You end up paying some guy so you can level the field a little with the local guy who wears out a pair of boots every summer. The local guy ends up getting pissed because you shot a deer some punk found while he was out spotlighting and drinking beer, and told the local hunting pimp. Who has an outfitters license. And round and round we go.

It reminds me of the drug argument. Dealer or user - whose fault is it?

Founder, you are one scary dude if you pose the single greatest threat to mule deer in Wyoming. Can you use your powers for good and go after woofs?

Spotlighting and drinking beer I wish it was that easy. Holy crap that might work on the AZ strip, Nevada , or the Pauns. But in G&H that seems a little tougher. Film permits are a joke that itself is theft to have to pay to run a camera on land you pay taxes on. I can see points to arguments for and against Brian's business. However if Wyoming cares so much about it's deer and this applies to Utah as well we'd be banning LR hunting. And I'm all for the tech in hunting to be scaled way back. Founder and his service is far less efficient than tech. And there is far more integrity in his service than say Scout to hunt. Firearm tech and human development are the largest factors killing mule deer.
 
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Spotlighting and drinking beer sounds a lot more sinister than some guy from Utah hiking around in the backcountry giving up the location of all the big deer.
 
Founder won't stop til 300. There are still 20 more ways he can ask the same question, so that will get us to #269, and some more posts saying get a guide's license will put us over 300. C'mon, boys!
 
I still find it hilarious how many people hate founder and his business because it is unethical and crosses some moral lines, but don't care about guides and their services (some have even hired them!) Trying to figure out how you work yourself through those moral gymnastics is exhausting..

It's NOT okay to tell someone where I saw an animal for money. It IS okay to take that person straight to that animal, do everything for them but pull the trigger, take care of their animal for them, pack it out, give them a place to sleep, cook for them, etc.. haha. REALLY??

I get the guys who don't like that he isn't regulated like the guides have to be, that actually makes sense for any business. It sucks if you have to pay to even operate your business and then someone else comes in essentially doing the same thing, but doesn't have to pay. BUT, all of you who just don't agree with the morality of his service, and then don't say a word when people mention guided hunts are hypocrites at best.

The comments about Founder hurting the deer herds really get me too. Lets just ignore the hundreds of outfitters that take clients that wouldn't kill a deer on their own into the mountains every year and come out with a trophy animal. Yeah, Founder is the problem...:rolleyes:

It gets even better when all these people have so much hate for Founder, that they can't even listen to what he is asking. He is trying to do this LEGALLY. He is figuring out the law and what he needs to do to be able to legally continue to scout G and get paid for it. His questions are legitimate. He's trying to figure out if he has to be on payroll, or if he can be hired as a subcontractor. With the way this law is written it would be a little sketchy for any guide in Wyoming to pass along specific positions of animals to an outfitter. It definitely could use some clarification.

To answer the original question with my opinion (for what it's worth), guides wouldn't have to worry about this law cause they aren't selling the position of animals. They are hired to do a job and part of that job is finding animals, but they aren't actually being compensated for the locations. They are being compensated for the work they put in as an employee for an outfitter. I would think you should be fully legal to scout for an outfitter under this law as long as you were hired as a guide to do so.

I think most people who don't have a stick up their butt where Founder is concerned can see how stupid this law is that as long as your being compensated for your work by an outfitter to find an animal, you can share the gps coordinates all you want, but as soon as you do that for any other person you're a criminal.

A little hard to say WYOGA doesn't have your state by the balls with laws like this being passed. Wyoming has more laws giving outfitters special treatment over the common hunter than any other state in the west. Wonder why that is?
 
Maybe someone should get you a cheerleading jersey with founder's name on it.

I dislike most guiding (have no issues with guiding on private property), Wyoming wilderness law, WYOGA and founder's scouting service. Better?
 
So let me make this a little more simple for people that dont understand. Guides and outfitters pay their dues to the state for making money off the state. They are also highly regulated. They have to provide information of how many clients they take where they are and when. What makes anyone thinks its ok to pay nothing come in and make money off the state without having to jump through the same hoops of the people doing it legally who are licensed? Thats the same as someone finding some kind of loophole to not buy a hunting licence when everyone else buys one might be able to get away with it somewhere is it right? I dont think so
 
I still find it hilarious how many people hate founder and his business because it is unethical and crosses some moral lines, but don't care about guides and their services (some have even hired them!) Trying to figure out how you work yourself through those moral gymnastics is exhausting..
Tell us please, how many of us "hate" Founder? I don't.

Personally, I don't like what he does, but like him I worked hard for all my big mule deer without an outfitter or paying someone to tell me where they took pictures of a particular buck.

Get off your stupid "hate" routine, everyone has an opinion and most don't have to write a book to give it.
 
So let me make this a little more simple for people that dont understand. Guides and outfitters pay their dues to the state for making money off the state. They are also highly regulated. They have to provide information of how many clients they take where they are and when. What makes anyone thinks its ok to pay nothing come in and make money off the state without having to jump through the same hoops of the people doing it legally who are licensed? Thats the same as someone finding some kind of loophole to not buy a hunting licence when everyone else buys one might be able to get away with it somewhere is it right?

Dang, that was a concise, intelligent, very easy to understand opinion/ argument. You make a very valid point that makes pretty much anyone have to at least consider your point of view.

If others would do the same this wouldn’t have turned into what is has. But hey, then we wouldn’t be approaching 300 posts ? Boys gotta have their fun
 
I don't like his service for ethical reasons

I don't like his service because he's undercutting legalized businesses

I don't like guides/outfitters on public land

I don't know Founder nor hate him, in fact I give him credit for not talking about free speech tgen dumping guys who disagree with him.
 
The question still remains the same. Let’s assume that a Founder decides to either become a WY licensed outfitter or guide. The new rule says “No Person May sell or barter location of big game animals”.

Is Founder’s scouting service legal or illegal? Remember the new rule says “No Person”.
 
The question still remains the same. Let’s assume that a Founder decides to either become a WY licensed outfitter or guide. The new rule says “No Person May sell or barter location of big game animals”.

Is Founder’s scouting service legal or illegal? Remember the new rule says “No Person”.
I suggest Founder should self-identify as an inanamate object, then the "no person" would not apply. Beat them at their own game.

What is is?
 
Freedom of Speech is a right, at least it was.

You can talk about deer locations in Wyoming until your face turns blue Brian, you just can't sell or barter for them.

Exactly, its not a First Amendment claim when Commerce is involved. The government has broad latitude to control commerce.

That's why its okay for two consenting adults to have sex, but the government can render unlawful an identical act when money changes hands.

As I said above, Founder can give away deer locations, but that doesn't protect the act of selling those same locations.

Just my .02
 
Exactly, its not a First Amendment claim when Commerce is involved. The government has broad latitude to control commerce.

That's why its okay for two consenting adults to have sex, but the government can render unlawful an identical act when money changes hands.

As I said above, Founder can give away deer locations, but that doesn't protect the act of selling those same locations.

Just my .02
First of all, this thread isn't about my First Amendment rights, it's supposed to be about figuring out how the rule beginning with "No Person Shall....." impacts guides and who and how one becomes exempt from the law so that they can scout for game in the summer and share it with the outfitter they work for.

BUT, I love a good debate. I would agree on that (grizzly) First Amendment comments, however, prostitution has been proven to create harm in society (increased drug use, abuse, etc) and there are times when freedoms need to be controlled to protect people. However, IMO, freedoms shouldn't be taken away to protect the pocket book of outfitters in Wyoming. I think when government begins taking away rights from public to protect certain businesses, there's a problem brewing.

As said before though, that ship has sailed. The law is what it is. I've changed what I offer in my information packages, and actually still working to refine my consulting to avoid any problems. BTW, I'd have no problem paying fees or whatever if there were such a thing with the state or Forest Service for what I do.

Again however, this thread is about the new rule and how it's written and who is going to be exempt even though the rule doesn't exempt anyone. Either an employed guide will legally be able to scout for their employer or not is the question, along with the question as to how to be exempt if the answer to the first question is positive. I'm still in contact with G&F to find out what I can. I'd just like to pursue work scouting for an outfitter if it's legal, but who knows???? I'm probably blacklisted in Wyoming anyway. :)
 
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There is a way around it. You've heard it at least 50x.

Get licensed as a guide.

You are being disingenuous. Your looking for a loophole.

If you are a licensed guide working for yourself, you need not worry about selling your locations to a third party.

But you are also a smart guy.

That is a capital investment. Right now you don't have one.

You aren't special. States protect industries.

A Utah contractor license isn't good in Wyoming.

Your "exemption" is simple. It's a piece of paper from the State of Wyoming that says

GUIDE/OUTFITTER
 
Pretty sure he would have to get licensed as an outfitter not a guide to provide those services. It's not that easy to do. You don't just pay a fee and you're an outfitter.
[/QUOT


Yup.

That's why he's searching for a loophole.

That's why they are pissed he's cutting them using one
 
No person, not even an outfitter or a guide can sell or barter locations. In the original draft bill, outfitters and landowners were exempt. It was argued internet services, that did what Founder does, could get an employee outfitter and be legal. In fact, the old draft made selling locations legal, by exempting outfitters and landowners. That was an ethical dilemma.

Even if Brian gets a guide license, he cannot be paid based on game animal locations; "no person" remember.

However, as a guide he can scout until he's "blue in the face" for the outfitter and share locations as a normal part of a guide's duties.
 
I can see Hoss opinion be an outfitter. Outfitters need to pay the state. Well, outfitters should pay the state, they have be getting a lot of perks.

I can see founders thought. Outfitter association in WY gets laws pass to stop most common average non resident hunters. Some can't afford a guided hunt. wilderness rule. You can camp, fish, and hunt small game in WY as a non resident, BUT it is unsafe to hunt deer or elk, You need an outfitter. WY outfitter association protects outfitters, but hurts the average little guys.

It would be nice if Founder could pay a 100 dollar fee, minimal paper work, and continue as he was. Or work under an outfitter share some info, and carry on.

We will have to see what happens.
 
No person, not even an outfitter or a guide can sell or barter locations. In the original draft bill, outfitters and landowners were exempt. It was argued internet services, that did what Founder does, could get an employee outfitter and be legal. In fact, the old draft made selling locations legal, by exempting outfitters and landowners. That was an ethical dilemma.

Even if Brian gets a guide license, he cannot be paid based on game animal locations; "no person" remember.

However, as a guide he can scout until he's "blue in the face" for the outfitter and share locations as a normal part of a guide's duties.
I understand what you're saying, but it seems so cut and dry to you, yet all 4 of these rules state "No Person Shall......", yet you're saying with one of these rules there is an except for guides working for an outfitter. Right? How exactly do you know that? How do you know that it's illegal for a guide working for an outfitter to Fly to Locate Game after August 1st, but OK for them to sell location information to the outfitter in the form of paycheck? You see, that's where my questions come in. What is it?

I can assume, as I believe you are, but I can't afford to roll the dice on that and go work for an outfitter, find deer and tell him where I found them. So I'm looking for the answer from G&F. Whether I get paid with a paycheck from the outfitter or some other sort of check, I'm still doing the same thing.

Here are 4 rules that state "No person shall....". Why would anyone automatically assume that any of them would have an exception for a licensed guide or anyone else unless it specifically states an exception?

No person shall use any aircraft with the intent to spot, locate and aid in the taking of any game animal from August 1 through January 31 of the following calendar year. Additionally, no person shall use any aircraft to spot, locate and aid in the taking of any trophy game animal during any open season. Nothing in this Section shall apply to the operation of an aircraft in a usual manner where there is no attempt or intent to locate any game animal, such as aircraft used for the sole purpose of passenger transport.
(NO EXCEPTION for employed, licensed guide)

No person shall use any device attached to a legal firearm, muzzleloader or archery equipment, capable of producing a thermal or infrared image, or other imaging outside the normal visible light spectrum, with the intent to spot, locate and aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.
(NO EXCEPTION for employed, licensed guide)

No person shall use any real-time video photography equipment, real-time thermal or infrared imaging device, or other real-time imaging device outside the normal visible light spectrum, capable of automatically transmitting an image, picture or video for remote viewing, with the intent to spot, locate and aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.
(NO EXCEPTION for employed, licensed guide)

No person shall sell or barter any geographic location information for any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison to aid in the taking of any big game animal, trophy game animal or wild bison.
(Is there an exception for an employed, licensed guide on this one????)
 
Founder, Hopefully it is as cut and dry as you make it out to be! It would be nice to rein in all the guides, outfitters,and what ever it is that you want to call your business, let the animals go back to hunting for yourself! If a person doesn’t have time to scout then luck be on their side. I live in California but hunt in Wyoming often, I would greatly increase my opportunities with an outfitter or “consulting firm” such as yours, I must just like tag soup to much.
 
Founder,
Will you be offering any Memorial Day sales? How about veteran discounts? Asking for a friend....
 
I understand what you're saying, but it seems so cut and dry to you, yet all 4 of these rules state "No Person Shall......", yet you're saying with one of these rules there is an except for guides working for an outfitter. Right? How exactly do you know that? How do you know that it's illegal for a guide working for an outfitter to Fly to Locate Game after August 1st, but OK for them to sell location information to the outfitter in the form of paycheck? You see, that's where my questions come in. What is it?

I can assume, as I believe you are, but I can't afford to roll the dice on that and go work for an outfitter, find deer and tell him where I found them. So I'm looking for the answer from G&F. Whether I get paid with a paycheck from the outfitter or some other sort of check, I'm still doing the same thing.

Here are 4 rules that state "No person shall....". Why would anyone automatically assume that any of them would have an exception for a licensed guide or anyone else unless it specifically states an exception?

Brian, what I am saying is there are no exceptions to selling or bartering game locations. Period.

But, a licensed professional guide, who works for an outfitter and gets a wage or salary from the outfitter can scout. If that guide is paid by the outfitter based on deer he finds, in effect selling the outfitter locations, that is illegal. If the outfitter tries to sell or barter to someone a location of a big buck, that is illegal. No one is exempt from selling the location.

Take the regulation literally, because that's what a judge will do.
 
Here my question about the wilderness law WHY can residents go unguided but outstate hunters have to go guided. BULL$HIT Welfare law
Now I thought that wilderness belong to every American.
Now I understand that the animals sleeping, grazing, breeding, etc on that same land belong to the state.
I bet it would piss off every resident if they would have to pay for a trespass fee to hunt on it and the nonresident got a free pass because he spending money in that state.

Now lets talk grazing fees for ALL STATE OWNED ANIMALS for being on that land taken by a resident hunter.
Boy that could really start a wild who gets the most money and Rights to what.
I sure like stirring the pot.
 
Gator take a deep breath! Resident hunters paying a trespass fee is a fairly tail and you know it. And are you saying residents don't spend money in the state, only NR? I guarantee I spend more just in gas hunting Wyoming than any NR, AND buy all my groceries/ supplies in here too. I would wager most NR purchase all of their groceries/supplies prior to coming into Wyoming. Good try though.
 
You can be all for government taking away freedom of speech, not me!!!


Nobody is taking your freedom of speech. Not even close. I bet you could put gps cords on a billboard if you wanted. So long as you didn't profit from doing so.
 
Best thing about the wilderness law is it keeps founder out from sellings GPS locations in those areas
I love the motivation you give me to press on. :)
And assuming sportsmen in Wyoming don’t want my help, would blow your “best thing” out of water. Sorry to burst your bubble. :D:devilish:
 
How about this.. I'll save all you non-residents a bunch of money spent. I'll happily give you a list of founders favorite spots he sells! It's pretty easy considering he hunts and scouts some of the most known and watched areas in the greys. Ill even tell you one of his favorite personal spots he goes each year he has a tag if you want to check it out too! ALL FREE. Why you ask? Cause according to founder the government is trying to take away his free speech, all while he charges you for it. So ill just give it to you free instead. Come one come all
 
Nobody is taking your freedom of speech. Not even close. I bet you could put gps cords on a billboard if you wanted. So long as you didn't profit from doing so.
Yes, that ship has sailed. It’s a waste of my time really to debate it. I feel one way, others disagree.
 
You are correct about one thing though. You are wasting your time. And now that a precedent has been set, I think you'd be hard pressed to attempt it elsewhere without going through the proper channels. Thus eliminating any profit you might acquire. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that?
 
How about this.. I'll save all you non-residents a bunch of money spent. I'll happily give you a list of founders favorite spots he sells! It's pretty easy considering he hunts and scouts some of the most known and watched areas in the greys. Ill even tell you one of his favorite personal spots he goes each year he has a tag if you want to check it out too! ALL FREE. Why you ask? Cause according to founder the government is trying to take away his free speech, all while he charges you for it. So ill just give it to you free instead. Come one come all
Throw a dart at a map of western Wyoming and where it lands has as good a chance of being my favorite spot this year as any other.
I haven’t a favorite spot. My favorite spots, my “Best of the Best”, are unknown until I visit them this summer. My very favorite spot will hold a buck I’ll be hunting, but I’m sure I’ll have 4-5 favorites this year.
But have at it dude! Fine with me. Here’s a link to my consulting page so you can see what I provide and do better. :) You’ll really show me!!
 
You are correct about one thing though. You are wasting your time. And now that a precedent has been set, I think you'd be hard pressed to attempt it elsewhere without going through the proper channels. Thus eliminating any profit you might acquire. I'd like to hear your thoughts on that?
I’ll be honest, I’m very confident that I’ll be consulting clients this year and spending much time in the backcountry. Been getting much contact recently. That’s my thoughts, but we’ll see. I know you won’t like that answer, but......
 
You would be incorrect assuming I dont like that answer. I hope you do find a LEGAL and profitable way to do what you love. But I recognize an unwinnable battle when I see one. You're like the kid in high school who has the booze but can't shut the hell up till it gets taken away. It doesn't matter who is right. Only matters who is in charge.
 
You would be incorrect assuming I dont like that answer. I hope you do find a LEGAL and profitable way to do what you love. But I recognize an unwinnable battle when I see one. You're like the kid in high school who has the booze but can't shut the hell up till it gets taken away. It doesn't matter who is right. Only matters who is in charge.
Well, you’ll be happy to know, I’ll ONLY do it legal. I do have consulting packages though that aren’t affected by the new law.
 
You honestly don't think a judge will see through your "glassing location" packages? I've been to court a couple times, those bastards notice that stuff. And then they say things like "intent" and other "ostensibly pervasive knowledge ". Have you considered maybe writing a book about your experiences. If your so worried about free speech, that may be a better route for you.
 
Founder....after a lot of research, speaking with a bunch of "law" professors / attorneys I know personally, and a lot of years studying the law personally....would the WY state's "law" here hold water / claim"....no, not even close! It would easily beat beat, hands down...on several levels, but fighting it and the monetary fight (whether its worth it) is the issue for you...good luck!
 
Throw a dart at a map of western Wyoming and where it lands has as good a chance of being my favorite spot this year as any other.
I haven’t a favorite spot. My favorite spots, my “Best of the Best”, are unknown until I visit them this summer. My very favorite spot will hold a buck I’ll be hunting, but I’m sure I’ll have 4-5 favorites this year.
But have at it dude! Fine with me. Here’s a link to my consulting page so you can see what I provide and do better. :) You’ll really show me!!
Oh come on founder.. ruffle your feathers a bit? 2 years ago you walked by a 226" buck... you put up video of his buddy right here on this site.You've spent multiple hunts with your own tag in the same spot that is easily recognizable from the photos right here on the site. Im just willing to offer that advice to your potential clients for free. Cause it won't effect my hunting one bit!
 
How about this.. I'll save all you non-residents a bunch of money spent. I'll happily give you a list of founders favorite spots he sells! It's pretty easy considering he hunts and scouts some of the most known and watched areas in the greys. Ill even tell you one of his favorite personal spots he goes each year he has a tag if you want to check it out too! ALL FREE. Why you ask? Cause according to founder the government is trying to take away his free speech, all while he charges you for it. So ill just give it to you free instead. Come one come all

So, where Founder would tell 1 person about a spot, you will tell 1000s. His person is not likely to hunt that spot again for years, if ever. And you will tell us all, so that many will be hunting it annually. But since it won't hurt your hunting, not a problem with you. You will really show him! Be sure to put your name on the ad, like he does. I am sure many will want to show their appreciation
 
So, where Founder would tell 1 person about a spot, you will tell 1000s. His person is not likely to hunt that spot again for years, if ever. And you will tell us all, so that many will be hunting it annually. But since it won't hurt your hunting, not a problem with you. You will really show him! Be sure to put your name on the ad, like he does. I am sure many will want to show their appreciation
Like the person he sells the location to wont tell anyone else? Yea right thats a good one.
 
Like the person he sells the location to wont tell anyone else? Yea right thats a good one.
Never said that. That is the nature of hunting, no matter how someone finds a good spot. Happens every year when anyone tells a friend who tells a friend... And if one person tells someone, how many does 1000 tell?
 
Oh come on founder.. ruffle your feathers a bit? 2 years ago you walked by a 226" buck... you put up video of his buddy right here on this site.You've spent multiple hunts with your own tag in the same spot that is easily recognizable from the photos right here on the site. Im just willing to offer that advice to your potential clients for free. Cause it won't effect my hunting one bit!
Yep, I walked right by that buck. Grrrrr. I was trying to cover too much ground on that trip. Believe me, I kick myself over that one. Of course, I’m sure I’ve walked past quite a few big bucks in my time. I cover a lot of miles.
Well, I can’t stop you or anyone from telling everyone where I’ve hunted in the past. Nor can I stop you from telling where I will be hunting in the future if you have that information as well.
I have no control over that and don’t worry about it.
 
Never said that. That is the nature of hunting, no matter how someone finds a good spot. Happens every year when anyone tells a friend who tells a friend... And if one person tells someone, how many does 1000 tell?
For me to properly calculate your question. Are the 1000 from utah or are they flat landers?
 
For me to properly calculate your question. Are the 1000 from utah or are they flat landers?

That’s the beauty. 1000 from Wy, 1000 from Utah, 1000 from.....

But as far as the other, I can only speak for myself. I used a consulting service in 2003. I have told exactly zero people, and have never been back to that spot
 
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