Utah raises NR fees, a ton!

So what percentage of NR hunters does Utah have to loose for this to be a loosing proposition for them? Anyone? Please speak up. Let's actually look at the math on this.
 
If they was upping the prices to way over what the other states are doing you guys might have a point, but they are coming up to inline with what the other states are selling tags for, or still cheaper. This isnt going to have a large effect on tag sales at all. In fact if there is a dip its going to be because of the virus not the price increase.

I also bet most of you that say you wont be applying again still do.

Bunch of big talk.
 
JakeH said:
If they was upping the prices to way over what the other states are doing you guys might have a point, but they are coming up to inline with what the other states are selling tags for, or still cheaper. This isnt going to have a large effect on tag sales at all. In fact if there is a dip its going to be because of the virus not the price increase.

I also bet most of you that say you wont be applying again still do.

Bunch of big talk.
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Well, you aren't wrong (but still not quite right). I for one will no longer apply for NR mule deer in UT. If I draw the bison tag, at the new high dollar price, that's all I'll want to pay to hunt in Utah (with its failing deer management). So, no "big talk" from me. Just one less NR deer applicant.
 
I have a bunch of limited entry deer points. I have 8 general season deer points also. Once those are gone I will be done with Utah. I hold no grudges, the lemon won’t be worth the squeeze any more for me. Not enough tags to draw and price/quality on general season deer doesn’t match up. Not complaining, just better bank for the buck in other states.

Rich
 
JakeH said:
If they was upping the prices to way over what the other states are doing you guys might have a point, but they are coming up to inline with what the other states are selling tags for, or still cheaper. This isnt going to have a large effect on tag sales at all. In fact if there is a dip its going to be because of the virus not the price increase.

I also bet most of you that say you wont be applying again still do.

Bunch of big talk.
Click to expand...

You can't charge Colorado prices when you don't have Colorado quality. Those prices for the general deer hunt are ridiculous for a non-resident.
 
lostinOregon said:
I have a bunch of limited entry deer points. I have 8 general season deer points also. Once those are gone I will be done with Utah. I hold no grudges, the lemon won’t be worth the squeeze any more for me. Not enough tags to draw and price/quality on general season deer doesn’t match up. Not complaining, just better bank for the buck in other states.

Rich
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Well said. Its not the price of the tag alone that dictates NR applicants choice of states to hunt. With Utah's failing deer management, they can't compete with other states, even if they price the tags the same. Back fire's a comin'. I'll just get my popcorn now...
 
ORIONTHEHUNTER said:
You can't charge Colorado prices when you don't have Colorado quality. Those prices for the general deer hunt are ridiculous for a non-resident.
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Everyone keeps saying how bad Colorado deer hunting sucks. What quality are you talking about? Feel free to PM me your answer.
 
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I will answer Ridgetops, Colorado had a down year last year, but generally speaking buck to doe ratios and deer numbers are higher. Multiple seasons and bigger bucks in general. Your success in general units is not the status quo for Utah general seasons. If you gave most non residents the choice of a 3 point general season in Utah versus a 3 point unit in Colorado, folks are picking Colorado.

Utah is extremely stingy with limited non resident deer tags. Some units, it’s just one tag. They dropped the limited tags by 10 this year alone that are available to non residents for bucks.

Rich
 
ORIONTHEHUNTER said:
You can't charge Colorado prices when you don't have Colorado quality. Those prices for the general deer hunt are ridiculous for a non-resident.
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ridgetops said:
Everyone keeps saying how bad Colorado deer hunting sucks. What quality are you talking about? Feel free to on me your answer.
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LOL, Colorado deer hunting is on a nose dive of a decline, Pretty soon with the current management program they have Utah will be looking pretty dang good.

I killed 192" typical on my last general season deer hunt in Utah. There are quality animals on the Utah general units, you just have to hunt for them.

Ultimately if you don't feel its worth your time dont apply its as simple as that. I doubt they will have trouble selling the tags.
 
I hear you all. Wish every state was not following suite.

Making it a rich mans game. Every couple years have to re plan the hunting situation.

I put in for states I have to many points to throw away until I draw. I will plan more deer and antelope hunts that I can do more often and affordable.

Will hunt and enjoy resident state general tags with family and friends. With an occasional out of state tag or resident limited tag.

I will hunt bears, hogs and dogs. Affordable and can do it yearly if desired.

Sheep, goat, bison are pretty much off the list unless it is alaska or a ranch. Just not worth the money and time, when you very well my be dead prior to even drawing.

Moose and even elk are getting out there for out of state hunts. Maybe put in for one or two states i would want to hunt them in and plan on a good out of state hunt every few years on top of the resident hunts, the occasional limited draw hunts until all my out of state points are used and the bears, hogs and dog hunts.

Just me. Hunt smarter, not harder ($$$) and enjoy it more!!!

Always something to enjoy.

They can double the price of tags and price allot of hunters out, but they will always sell the limited tags out and they know it. That is where you have to try to get ahead of there game and pick what you can afford and enjoy the most with the game changing every few years.

With prices going up, tag numbers being reduced, the states are just hoping to keep enough people in to collect a fee that some of us will never get a tag for prior to old age or death.

I hate to see it and feel for non residence, just like I feel for myself in the states I have hunted in the past on regular basis.

Good luck to all in their decisions and your draws. Enjoy what you can draw!!!
 
LivingTheDream said:
I dont have a problem with the increase on LE and OIL, and honestly they could probably raise them more. But really there arent many of those tags for nonresidents so not sure how much of a funding difference it makes. I think General tags going up is going to hurt Utah in the long run, as that impacts families and groups, eventually it will impact hunter recruitment.
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Unless the Covid-19 issues remain long term, Utah isn't likely to be hurt in the long run. This isn't the first time that nonresidents have had a big fee increase in hunting licenses and permits. The last time it happened was in 2005 and the stats show that the number of nonresident licenses and tags went down for a few years, but rebounded quite well and is now 3.6 times the number that it was in 2004 before the increase. (Of course it fluctuated over the years.) I think we'll do just fine because many nonresidents have family connections in Utah and the hunts are part of those connections.

Year-----NR lic & tags
2004----13,025
2005----11,636
2006----12,402
2007----10,573
2008----13,221
----------------
2019----44,425
2020----47,775


 
Tristate said:
;)

Like I said. Welcome to the real world. The great thing about this is hunters have increased their weight in wildlife decisions in your state even more. The more money our industry brings to the table the more say we get on management of the animals and the less say the antis get.
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This was worse than your first post.
 
elkfromabove said:
Unless the Covid-19 issues remain long term, Utah isn't likely to be hurt in the long run. This isn't the first time that nonresidents have had a big fee increase in hunting licenses and permits. The last time it happened was in 2005 and the stats show that the number of nonresident licenses and tags went down for a few years, but rebounded quite well and is now 3.6 times the number that it was in 2004 before the increase. (Of course it fluctuated over the years.) I think we'll do just fine because many nonresidents have family connections in Utah and the hunts are part of those connections.

Year-----NR lic & tags
2004----13,025
2005----11,636
2006----12,402
2007----10,573
2008----13,221
----------------
2019----44,425
2020----47,775


Click to expand...

Edited: Opps! The first link is the wrong one. It gives the info for 1958 to 2003. Sorry! Here's the one for 2004 to 2015:


(And for the years 2016 to 2019, just change the year at the end on the second link.)
 
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JakeH said:
If they was upping the prices to way over what the other states are doing you guys might have a point, but they are coming up to inline with what the other states are selling tags for, or still cheaper. This isnt going to have a large effect on tag sales at all. In fact if there is a dip its going to be because of the virus not the price increase.

I also bet most of you that say you wont be applying again still do.

Bunch of big talk.
Click to expand...


This is ALWAYS HOW government entities work.

They COMPARE ONLY one side of the equation.

"Others states raised it so we should too"

They NEVER look at how they compare in quality or opportunity to those states.


With the Oil and gas guys and the surrounding industry that supports it taking a bath, there easily could be less participation in NR hunting across the West.
 
People keep saying "hunting" is getting so expensive or that "hunting" is a rich man's game. "Hunting" is not getting expensive, NON-RESIDENT hunting is expensive. There is a difference. People keep acting like this is a big change, but non-resident hunting in general is the big change. It's only over the last 30 years that people have started going out of state to hunt in such great numbers. Ask grandpa about hunting 5 different states and he will laugh at you. They couldn't afford that back then. Maybe 2 if you lived close to the border, or grandpa was really hardcore, but almost nobody was hunting a bunch of states, and I will again reiterate, it was NOT cheap back then either. It might be more dollars today, but if you factor inflation there really isn't much difference.

The way I see it, this is getting back to the tradition of hunting where you live. If you don't have the hunting that you want where you live, then change where you live. Or learn how to make good enough money to hunt as a non-resident and stop whining. Just like anything else in life, you get to make the call on what is truly important to you.

And if the tags truly aren't worth the price they are charging, then they will come down. If the economy continues to suck and nobody is buying tags, the prices will come down. Non-resident tag prices have always fluctuated with the economy. Not that long ago Idaho was giving discounts on tags because they weren't selling. Now the demand is up and no discounts. I hate to agree with Tri, but that's how it has always been and always will be. That's life.

The biggest thing is non-resident hunting was never cheap and it won't ever be cheap. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
 
IdahoHntr said:
People keep saying "hunting" is getting so expensive or that "hunting" is a rich man's game. "Hunting" is not getting expensive, NON-RESIDENT hunting is expensive. There is a difference. People keep acting like this is a big change, but non-resident hunting in general is the big change. It's only over the last 30 years that people have started going out of state to hunt in such great numbers. Ask grandpa about hunting 5 different states and he will laugh at you. They couldn't afford that back then. Maybe 2 if you lived close to the border, or grandpa was really hardcore, but almost nobody was hunting a bunch of states, and I will again reiterate, it was NOT cheap back then either. It might be more dollars today, but if you factor inflation there really isn't much difference.

The way I see it, this is getting back to the tradition of hunting where you live. If you don't have the hunting that you want where you live, then change where you live. Or learn how to make good enough money to hunt as a non-resident and stop whining. Just like anything else in life, you get to make the call on what is truly important to you.

And if the tags truly aren't worth the price they are charging, then they will come down. If the economy continues to suck and nobody is buying tags, the prices will come down. Non-resident tag prices have always fluctuated with the economy. Not that long ago Idaho was giving discounts on tags because they weren't selling. Now the demand is up and no discounts. I hate to agree with Tri, but that's how it has always been and always will be. That's life.

The biggest thing is non-resident hunting was never cheap and it won't ever be cheap. There is absolutely nothing wrong with that.
Click to expand...

NR may have never been “cheap”, but it has has been “reasonable” and not so expensive that the common man couldn’t go hunt in at least one other state if he wanted to. The prices today are pushing, if not beyond that limit. The question is how much is too much?

For a resident that wants less NR hunters, it is pretty simple: limit our numbers. But limiting us with price is not cool in my book. Why does it keep happening? Because your game dept needs our money and “everyone is doing it”
 
15 Years! 15 Years!

Txhunter58,
Don't adjust your prices for 15 years. You preach it now live it. There are people who can't afford healthcare for their pets because of your prices. You are pricing people out of pet ownership. Don't change your prices for 15 years. I'll check in with you in 2035 and we can discuss how that's working out for you.
 
hossblur said:

Utah increases nonresident hunting fees for 2020/2021

Fee increases across board
www.gohunt.com www.gohunt.com

Pretty sneaky to wait until after applications so you NR guys couldn't burn points this year.

Sure be nice if the mtn state's could get together a compact to hold prices for NR from other mtn states.
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Every state around us Utahans have a $3-400 deer tag and elk wow ranged from $700-$1300

OIL species or trophy species are all $2,200 bucks. I don’t see the injustice?

looks like Utah is getting on the same page.
 
Broomer said:
Every state around us Utahans have a $3-400 deer tag and elk wow ranged from $700-$1300

OIL species or trophy species are all $2,200 bucks. I don’t see the injustice?

looks like Utah is getting on the same page.
Click to expand...
That “same page” you speak of should be defined as ripping off the hunters.
 
notdonhunting said:
$70000+ truck
$50000+ camp trailer
$20000+ side × side
$2000 gun
$2000 scope
$2700 sporting scope
$2000+ Binoculars
$1000+ worth of designer camouflage
Out of State License fees thats a problem!
Click to expand...

Let me guess, you pay resident prices for elk and mule deer?

you have just made our point. A guy with all those items is not the common man. He could afford a $2000 elk tag

My Colorado hunting rig last year:

Four-door four-wheel-drive pick-up that I use in my business, $40,000. It’s four years old and I kept my last one for 19 years

Tent, $200 and it’s 17 years old

Don’t own a four wheeler

gun and scope, 40 years old

Don’t own a spotting scope

OK I did splurge on some
binoculars this past year $750

For my outfit including boots, I probably have more than $1000 invested. But most of those items last 8-10 years

not to mention ALL of those items I already have because I hunt my own state.

I have hunting friends with less that I have that used to go hunting out of state. They are just SOL and I guess that is just fine with you.
 
As a non resident of Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, Nevada, Arizona and Montana I hunt exactly none of them. Why? Because to ME it is not worth it.

Please feel free to make your own decisions. I'm not feeling sorry for you.
 
" They are just SOL and I guess that is just fine with you. "

Yep.

When someone brings Fido in to you and can't afford your $2500 operation you want to sell them I guess they are just SOL and it is fine with you????? Come on TXHunter58. You are pricing people out of having their best friend. Keep your prices the same as they are now and we will check back in with you in 15 years. You owe it to pet owners everywhere.
 
One thing you all are forgetting. The animals in Utah (or in your state) are owned by the residents! And they are managed by an instate agency for the owners in a manner the majority of the owners have decided they should be managed whether by direct input or by default. Non-owners may not like it, but they don't (or shouldn't) carry the weight in those decisions that the owners carry. AND they don't (or shouldn't) get the owners' discount that the residents get for hunting their own animals. You nonresidents are hunting animals you don't own, so you should expect to pay for that privilege. If the price is too high for that privilege, then you can either find another state to hunt or help to manage your own state to your liking. But you're wasting your time, energy, and money trying to make someone else manage their animals to your liking.
 
txhunter58 Most out of state hunters that live more than one state away from Utah do not usually bring a camper but most don't stay in a tent, they stay in a hotel and eat restaurant food once or twice a day, i am not saying all out of state hunters I am saying most.
I am not saying you don't drive a older pickup but most out of state hunters i come across during the hunt are driving a pickup that is not more than two years old of the current year.
The fact is utah will continue to sell out there deer permits, this price rase could affect there out of state general season elk permits but it will not affect the deer general season.
I for one enjoy out of state hunters when I run into one that likes to visit I enjoy the conversation about there travels.
Txhunter58 and other out of state hunters I hope you can continue to enjoy hunting Utah or whatever sate you hunt and I hope you have success.
 
Broomer said:
Every state around us Utahans have a $3-400 deer tag and elk wow ranged from $700-$1300

OIL species or trophy species are all $2,200 bucks. I don’t see the injustice?

looks like Utah is getting on the same page.
Click to expand...

All of those states are far better deer hunting than Utah. Heck, even Idaho.
 
I love Utah, wont stop hunting there. Utah can do as they please with their regs; for me, just means that I have to balance my hunting budget, perhaps apply in less places and for less tags, and prioritize better. I do love hunting the general for deer. Archery is a kick in the pants fun.
 
Deerlove said:
Elk which one of these states have you hunted??
Click to expand...

I've only hunted 2 other states besides Utah. Once for elk in the Blue Mountains in southeast Washington in 1966 and many times for the small Coastal Mule Deer in Ventura and Los Angeles Counties in California when I lived there from 1968 to 1989. Why do you ask?
 
middlefork said:
As a non resident of Colorado, Wyoming, Idaho, Nevada, Arizona and Montana I hunt exactly none of them. Why? Because to ME it is not worth it.

Please feel free to make your own decisions. I'm not feeling sorry for you.
Click to expand...
. Thanks for that. Valuable insight that was much needed.
 
txhunter58 said:
NR may have never been “cheap”, but it has has been “reasonable” and not so expensive that the common man couldn’t go hunt in at least one other state if he wanted to. The prices today are pushing, if not beyond that limit. The question is how much is too much?

For a resident that wants less NR hunters, it is pretty simple: limit our numbers. But limiting us with price is not cool in my book. Why does it keep happening? Because your game dept needs our money and “everyone is doing it”
Click to expand...

You missed the whole point. The "common man" has never been an out of state hunter. The "common man" stays home and hunts his own state. It's been that way for a long time. There have been plenty of times in the past that out of state hunting was out of reach for most hunters. Out of state hunting is and always has been a "rich" man's game.

Now, saying that, if it's a priority, out of state hunting is just as affordable as any other pursuit you could spend your time and money on. I still think the "common man" can afford these prices just fine. Somehow I was able to hunt a few different states while paying for college, supporting a family, and never taking on any debt. I have a hard time believing that if it is a priority to you, that you can't afford it.

If the quality isn't worth the money to you, well that's a different story all together. That's good ol capitalism and there are a lot of other states to look at. Ironically, I don't think any of them are cheaper? Maybe a little? If so it isn't by much. I don't know anybody who hunts all 50 states and that just comes down to the fact that for different reasons, most states aren't worth your time. There will be plenty of people who still think Utah is worth it (Me for one) and will continue to pay. And I drive a 20 year old truck and shoot a 20 year old rifle for reference. I can't think of many people who are a whole lot more "common" than me.

It's all cyclic. Look at inflation and price of tags together. For the last while inflation has outpaced the tag prices and they have been relatively cheap. Every time you have a price raise the price exceeds the rate of inflation for a small period and the tags might seem expensive. Within a few years inflation catches up and the tags will start feeling relatively cheap again. That's what happens when you don't change your prices for 15 years.

That could be combated by just raising prices every year with inflation, but raising prices involves legislators and I think most fish and game departments have realized it's best to keep those guys out as much as possible.
 
IdahoHntr said:
You missed the whole point. The "common man" has never been an out of state hunter. The "common man" stays home and hunts his own state. It's been that way for a long time. There have been plenty of times in the past that out of state hunting was out of reach for most hunters. Out of state hunting is and always has been a "rich" man's game.

Now, saying that, if it's a priority, out of state hunting is just as affordable as any other pursuit you could spend your time and money on. I still think the "common man" can afford these prices just fine. Somehow I was able to hunt a few different states while paying for college, supporting a family, and never taking on any debt. I have a hard time believing that if it is a priority to you, that you can't afford it.

If the quality isn't worth the money to you, well that's a different story all together. That's good ol capitalism and there are a lot of other states to look at. Ironically, I don't think any of them are cheaper? Maybe a little? If so it isn't by much. I don't know anybody who hunts all 50 states and that just comes down to the fact that for different reasons, most states aren't worth your time. There will be plenty of people who still think Utah is worth it (Me for one) and will continue to pay. And I drive a 20 year old truck and shoot a 20 year old rifle for reference. I can't think of many people who are a whole lot more "common" than me.

It's all cyclic. Look at inflation and price of tags together. For the last while inflation has outpaced the tag prices and they have been relatively cheap. Every time you have a price raise the price exceeds the rate of inflation for a small period and the tags might seem expensive. Within a few years inflation catches up and the tags will start feeling relatively cheap again. That's what happens when you don't change your prices for 15 years.

That could be combated by just raising prices every year with inflation, but raising prices involves legislators and I think most fish and game departments have realized it's best to keep those guys out as much as possible.
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Its funny how it is always a mountain state resident that feels this way?!?

We are just going to have to agree to disagree. Because I strongly disagree with your primis. I have had more than a handful of friends that used to go with me or with other people hunting in Colorado that can no longer afford it. There were always “common man” guy friends that maybe didn’t pay their fair share of the gas and groceries but with a little help from friends (that were going anyway) they could afford the tag. And I don’t mind paying a bit more than my fair share because I enjoyed hunting with them and an extra back to bring an elk out was always nice.

And me personally, I have been going elk hunting since my late 20s. I certainly wasn’t a rich guy then, but with a little help from friends I was able to buy the tag and go. Now I can afford any price to hunt. The prices do not affect me personally any more. But I still think what is happening to others is wrong.


BTW, Colorado can now raise prices to residents and an non residents every year. And they usually do.
 
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BuzzH said:
Care to explain why Colorado has no spring bear season? No trapping?

Why you cant use hounds to run lions in Oregon?

No lion hunting at all in CA?

Do I need to go on?

All those states get nearly all their wildlife and fisheries management money from hunters and fishermen.

Seems to me the influence of who pays the bills there didn't really seem to matter.

You're overplaying the importance of where the funding comes from.
Click to expand...
Buzz,
In CA the no lion hunting came about through a ballot measure that was voted on by the people in the state, which took control away from the Department of Wildlife. The antis were aware that the Department of Wildlife was going to open lion hunting up on a limited basis and mounted a campaign to prevent that through a ballot measure.

There are two main threads in this blog:
1) should a state be able to raise fees for NR hunters?
2) should fees price out NR hunters (maybe used to paying a set amount)?

1) Of course, a state has the responsibility to manage its fees and fee structure in the best interest of the state, and to fulfill its mission. Raising NR fees is an option that they chose, which could be for many reasons. a) The state perceives that NR tag demand will support the fee increase, b) the state might want to reduce NR tag demand as a precursor to reducing tag numbers, c) NR who pay more for tags might spend more money in the state helping the economy overall, d) resident sentiment and perception ares that there are too many NR hunters taking away from their own opportunity (maybe be right or wrong), e) state needs to raise more money, but the residents are more price sensitive, etc...

2) When prices go up for any good or service those whose wherewithall remains constant will be subject to pricing pressure so naturally NR hunters will get priced out of a state that raises fees. Is that bad? Not necessarily, it probably changes the mix of hunters applying for tags but the overall tag numbers wouldn't necessarily change.
a) if a hunter cannot afford to hunt out of state, then they have the option to hunt iwthin their home state where fees favor residents. They could hunt more in state.
b) NR who really want to hunt in Utah will find a way to do it even with the incremental cost increase for the tag/license. (Someone brought up the cost of all things that go into hunting, and I agree the tag/lic. is a fraction of the cost and a small incremental increase isn't going to be a deal breaker based on my values. And will probably be offset by decreases in the the cost of fuel to get out to wherever.)
c) A lot depends on how one perceives the value of the tag/hunt opportunity. If the incremental increased tag cost changes the entire value proposition for that hunter, then the hunter was probably going to make that value based decision to quit hunting Utah anyway. (Personally, I gave up applying to Oregon, because the value I placed on the hunting experience in OR versus where else I could hunt and apply my limited resources had changed.)
d) should states structure their fees in a manner that allows every NR to hunt everywhere? IMHO - Because there are a limited number of tags, and more NRs that tags to go around it only makes sense to raise the fees to a level that is competitive with other states, as well as maximizes revenue and reflects the perceived value of the hunting opportunity. The Utah lottery system allocate the premium tags, and there is no reason they shouldn't up the ante to reflect the value of the hunt. Also, general hunts have a different purpose and there is increasing demand for the general tags just look at the increase in applications in Colorado and Idaho.
 
After reading nearly all of these posts, I see that some have made great points, some are certainly more informed than me, some are flat wrong, and some are highly entertaining (thank you for that).

IMO, best points made focus on the low quality deer hunting in Utah. Yes, UT can raise fees; yes, they may be more in line with other states; yes, most states care more about residents than NRs. HOWEVER, like most government officials, DWR fails to realize NRs have the freedom to and will look elsewhere based on deer quality and quantity (quality for price = value). It is not a given that the number of NRs applying in previous years will continue after the price increase. And residents, don't forget, once NR applicants decrease, guess where the DWR will look for more price hikes to make up for the difference???

It would be a different story if Utah boasted an excellent deer herd in concert with this price hike. Prices go up and NR hunters would still apply, cause they could still have a great experience and potential harvest. The deer herd is arguably the worst now since the early 90's. It will be very interesting to see how this plays out. Glad I now live in NV!
 
Sad when I can fly to Newfoundland, hunt moose and ship meat home cheaper than I can drive to a state in the US.
 
tracker12 said:
Sad when I can fly to Newfoundland, hunt moose and ship meat home cheaper than I can drive to a state in the US.
Click to expand...
Depends on what you are trying to hunt in the States.
I can hunt Non Resident deer in most states for less than $1500 that includes permit, food and fuel.
If you can round trip fly to Newfoundland get transportation, buy food and ship the meet home for less than $1500.
I want in.
 

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