Utah muzzleloader BS

pauns08

pauns08

Active Member
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So what is our retarded utah DWR thinking in the new muzzy scope rules? After shooting quite a few days this summer and not being near as accurate as I'd like with a 1x scope, open sights, and also the Williams precision globe sight I've decided they all suck past about 150 yards. Before this year I was shooting a half inch group at 100 yards and 400 yards was darn near a chip shot with the 4-12 power scope that I had on it and now I'm pretty happy just hitting a 10 inch paper plate at 150 yards. So does the dwr really think that the select few guys that were shooting their muzzleloaders 500+ yards are going to completely decimate the deer herd? Well I can tell you the guys shooting 500 yards knew what they were doing and were quite accurate, now you're going to have everyone shooting at deer at 200-300 yards where really nobody has any business shooting at a deer at 200-300 yards with the new rules. Now before anyone says "I can accurately shoot 300+ yards with the new rules" no, no you can't. You might be able to luck into a 12 inch group but to me that's not considered accurate enough to ethically take an animal. So why not let us have the most accurate weapon we can have?
 
I understand what you guys are saying and maybe my comment came off as I want to shoot a deer with my muzzy at 500+ but that's not at all it but I would like to shoot a moa group at 100 yards and it's almost unattainable I feel like. I feel like you're still going to have every guy out there shooting at and wounding animals at 200 yards. I guess there is no difference in wounding one at 200 yards with the primitive style that they went back to than wounding one at 600 yards with a turret scope.
 
Pauns,

I was a bit frustrated with the change also having 19 NR deer points. It appears that the change put more folks in for the muzzy draws so it didn’t discourage folks from hunting muzzys.
 
lostinOregon said:
Pauns,

I was a bit frustrated with the change also having 19 NR deer points. It appears that the change put more folks in for the muzzy draws so it didn’t discourage folks from hunting muzzys.
Click to expand...
Ya it didn't discourage me I still put in for muzzy tag and drew it but I'm having a hard time and it's frustrating not being as accurate even at 100 yards as I was with a better scope. I feel like we owe it to the animal to be the most precise as we can with our shooting.
 
The Biggest Issue Is They Didn't Do A FAIR TAKE Across The Board Including Archery Equipment & LONG-RANGERS With Their Rifles!

Let's Get A Couple More Committee's Going!
 
500 yards with the right equipment is not a difficult muzzy shot anymore. The reasons you stated above are exactly why the Wildlife Board (not the DWR) banned scopes again.

You and I can disagree with them for their reasons, but their stated reasoning is because, as you clearly stated, 400 yards with a muzzy was darn near a chip shot, and they believed the muzzy hunt should be different. Nothing more, nothing less.

First time I ever picked up my friends Paramount with a custom made turret I shot a sub moa group at 300 yards and then was 1.5” off center for at 500. I had shot two shots at 100 yards to make sure it was on before this. So yeah, it wasn’t hard to do with the right equipment.

I shot it better than I shoot my 7mm. I am not some sniper either. I consider myself a very average shooter.

It’s going to take more people actually pulling the fancy scopes off and seeing how hard muzzy hunting used to be before you see those draw odds change. But it will happen. As you stated, 200 yards with 1x or open sights is a dang hard shot. Some can do it consistently, but I couldn’t. And that is exactly what the policy makers for wildlife in Utah were going for.
 
I too am going to struggle with the "new" regulation in Utah. My eyes don't see far away very well at all anymore.

Either I'll be able to make it work where I am comfortable taking shots within my abilities, or I won't muzzy hunt.
 
I can see far away great but not close up! I took the aperture out of the rear sight. Making a "ghost ring" type of sight. Works better for what my eyes are doing.
 
Ya I understand what the reason was I guess I'm just frustrated trying to get the muzzys to the point I feel really good with them out to 150 yards. I was a bowhunter forever so I get the point of trying to get closer I just wanted to try a different weapon so I picked up muzzy hunting about 5 years ago and really loved it and I still do and I'll continue to muzzy hunt.
 
I believe it was changed, since allot of the big bucks were taken before the rifle season started and kind of p off the people. I never got to hunt utah muzzy with variable scope so to me it's they way it was before. I drew this year after 6 years of applying as a non resident.
 
So?

It was Them DAMNED SmokePolers That Killed All The Bucks In DRATville Huh?

mickeyelk said:
I believe it was changed, since allot of the big bucks were taken before the rifle season started and kind of p off the people. I never got to hunt utah muzzy with variable scope so to me it's they way it was before. I drew this year after 6 years of applying as a non resident.
Click to expand...
 
A friend of mine drew the Paunsaugant a couple years ago, hired a guide after waiting 27 years with his muzzle loader.There was one giant buck everyone was after and he was big. One guided hunter took a crack at him at 600 yards and hit him, no one ever saw the Buck again nor did they find him. It wasn’t long after there was talk of removing scopes. Come up to Idaho where you shoot primative. Only in Utah are Custom 1000 yard muzzle loaders with turret scopes used and made.
 
While it might be about saving some bucks here and there... its really about the experience. With new muzzies and high powered scopes, the muzzy hunts were really just single-shot rifle hunts.

I wish you luck buddy! 150 yards with open sights or 1x scope is doing well and something to feel good about. But, I've never taken a crack at a buck with open sights passed 100 yards myself. 😁
 
I've got several red dots between pistols, ARs and scatter guns, so I like them and are custom to them, currently the trijicon has been my go to.
I can consistently shoot 250 yards with one on my muzzy, no 1" group stuff but 3" to 4" groups at 250 yards, I feel confident killing a deer or elk at that range, but that is the absolute max I would shoot, most of my shots are under the 200 yd mark.
Even when I had 3x9 on my muzzy my groups where obviously tighter, but I still didn't push it past 250yd
 
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hawkbill said:
A friend of mine drew the Paunsaugant a couple years ago, hired a guide after waiting 27 years with his muzzle loader.There was one giant buck everyone was after and he was big. One guided hunter took a crack at him at 600 yards and hit him, no one ever saw the Buck again nor did they find him. It wasn’t long after there was talk of removing scopes. Come up to Idaho where you shoot primative. Only in Utah are Custom 1000 yard muzzle loaders with turret scopes used and made.
Click to expand...
We wish we had your Idaho muzzy regs!
Very jealous!!
 
I was opposed to them allowing magnified scopes on muzzleloaders when they made the change in 2015-16ish. I’m glad they change it back to the prior regulations for many reasons already stated. I am a average shooter, my eye sight is getting worse every year, and I do not have a fancy long range muzzleloader but MOA at 100 yards is possible with the regulations currently in place. 300+ yards… not so much but that was the intent for making the changes.

Good luck.
 
So Hossy?

Let's talk Real PRIMITIVE Weapons!

Do You Have A HAWKENS?

I Filed The Front Sight Down On Mine Down To A Hair About 40 Years Ago!

Now I Can't See It!:D



hossblur said:
Shot again this weekend. Using open Williams sights. 100 yards is a go. 150 front sight covers things up.

Which, is exactly what a "primitive" gun should do
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
So Hossy?

Let's talk Real PRIMITIVE Weapons!

Do You Have A HAWKENS?

I Filed The Front Sight Down On Mine Down To A Hair About 40 Years Ago!

Now I Can't See It!:D
Click to expand...

I couldn't afford a Hawkins.

I have a Thompson New Englander
IMG_20240812_180126.jpg
 
I live in Arkansas. They done away with our muzzle loader season. They opened it up to straight wall cartridge/ml. As long as it's a swc and not a semi automatic . U are good to go. Alternative season I think is what they call it now. They just changed it about a month ago. I liked muzzle loader season before. Not many people hunting. They will be this season. U can use any size of scope. I remember my first knight muzzle loader. Scope couldn't be more than a 1 power . I put a red dot on mine. Had to let them get close. I still planning on going muzzle loader hunting. I always take a vacation. I may goto Mississippi muzzle loader hunting.
 
pauns08 said:
So what is our retarded utah DWR thinking in the new muzzy scope rules? After shooting quite a few days this summer and not being near as accurate as I'd like with a 1x scope, open sights, and also the Williams precision globe sight I've decided they all suck past about 150 yards. Before this year I was shooting a half inch group at 100 yards and 400 yards was darn near a chip shot with the 4-12 power scope that I had on it and now I'm pretty happy just hitting a 10 inch paper plate at 150 yards. So does the dwr really think that the select few guys that were shooting their muzzleloaders 500+ yards are going to completely decimate the deer herd? Well I can tell you the guys shooting 500 yards knew what they were doing and were quite accurate, now you're going to have everyone shooting at deer at 200-300 yards where really nobody has any business shooting at a deer at 200-300 yards with the new rules. Now before anyone says "I can accurately shoot 300+ yards with the new rules" no, no you can't. You might be able to luck into a 12 inch group but to me that's not considered accurate enough to ethically take an animal. So why not let us have the most accurate weapon we can have?
Click to expand...
Well you just proved the whole point about scopes making the muzzleloaders into pretty much single shot rifles.
 
My brother has gotten big into muzzy hunting. I was with him 2 years ago when he shot a bull elk at 335 yards across a canyon, pretty impressive for a muzzy. He has a Paramount muzzy. It was topped with a 3x9 vortex. With the new laws he switched to a red dot 1x scope, not sure the brand. This year he dumped a nice buck at 300ish yards. He puts a lot of time into shooting and tinkering with his equipment. Even with the red dot scope he is getting amazing accuracy at long ranges. He is shooting tight enough groups out to 400 yards to accurately take a deer.

The original intent of muzzy hunting was a primitive weapon hunt. Many of today's Muzzy's are no longer primitive, they are basically as deadly as any centerfire rifle at long ranges. This makes for interesting conversation.

States are beginning to look at, and in some cases, have started implementing laws to restrict technology.

I think banning high power scopes on muzzy's is not a bad thing in and of itself in sticking with the original intent of what the muzzy hunt should be, i.e., a primative weapons hunt, it sets a dangerous precedence.

Keep in mind, the silent majority always loose, so let your voice be heard.

Typically, ban laws start because someone decided there was an "unfair advantage" being utilized and in turn start having conversations with people of influence. Ultimately they get in touch with lawmakers to begin the process of get a bill created and passed. That's basically what has happened in Utah with trail cams and it will continue as long as the silent majority remain silent.
Where will it stop? Then answer is it won't stop until hunting is banned altogether.
 
"Then answer is it won't stop until hunting is banned altogether"

Exactly that's part of the reason I think it's bull sh*t they even started restricting weapons and why we let them, because now where are they going to stop?
 
Wapiti said:
My brother has gotten big into muzzy hunting. I was with him 2 years ago when he shot a bull elk at 335 yards across a canyon, pretty impressive for a muzzy. He has a Paramount muzzy. It was topped with a 3x9 vortex. With the new laws he switched to a red dot 1x scope, not sure the brand. This year he dumped a nice buck at 300ish yards. He puts a lot of time into shooting and tinkering with his equipment. Even with the red dot scope he is getting amazing accuracy at long ranges. He is shooting tight enough groups out to 400 yards to accurately take a deer.

The original intent of muzzy hunting was a primitive weapon hunt. Many of today's Muzzy's are no longer primitive, they are basically as deadly as any centerfire rifle at long ranges. This makes for interesting conversation.

States are beginning to look at, and in some cases, have started implementing laws to restrict technology.

I think banning high power scopes on muzzy's is not a bad thing in and of itself in sticking with the original intent of what the muzzy hunt should be, i.e., a primative weapons hunt, it sets a dangerous precedence.

Keep in mind, the silent majority always loose, so let your voice be heard.

Typically, ban laws start because someone decided there was an "unfair advantage" being utilized and in turn start having conversations with people of influence. Ultimately they get in touch with lawmakers to begin the process of get a bill created and passed. That's basically what has happened in Utah with trail cams and it will continue as long as the silent majority remain silent.
Where will it stop? Then answer is it won't stop until hunting is banned altogether.
Click to expand...
For the majority the 1x scope limits the ability
We will always have someone who can perfect it
Hell some guys are doing 300 with open and traditional
 
0 scopes on muzzleloaders imo. If guys are going to keep crying about this type of crap then I'd be all for having to go back to the old musket style round ball type of hunt. The game and fish put these rules and laws into effect because of the lack of chance animals are getting. 300 yards with a muzzy is way too far...it's a primitive arm. Also the reason I'm all for no optics on bows. Some guys are putting those magnifying lenses on their peep sights....those shouldn't be allowed.
 
MountainSqwabler said:
0 scopes on muzzleloaders imo. If guys are going to keep crying about this type of crap then I'd be all for having to go back to the old musket style round ball type of hunt. The game and fish put these rules and laws into effect because of the lack of chance animals are getting. 300 yards with a muzzy is way too far...it's a primitive arm. Also the reason I'm all for no optics on bows. Some guys are putting those magnifying lenses on their peep sights....those shouldn't be allowed.
Click to expand...
Agreed everyone should quit crying and just hunt
 
I can 100% understand the frustration people feel that went out and bought new scopes and new equipment because they said it was legal to do so. I won't poo poo that. That really sucks for those that did.

However, I will say I'm in favor of what they did and I think it will have a net positive impact on the experience overall in the end. I am contemplating going back to muzzy hunting now that they've put the old rule back in place.
 
Vanilla said:
I can 100% understand the frustration people feel that went out and bought new scopes and new equipment because they said it was legal to do so. I won't poo poo that. That really sucks for those that did.

However, I will say I'm in favor of what they did and I think it will have a net positive impact on the experience overall in the end. I am contemplating going back to muzzy hunting now that they've put the old rule back in place.
Click to expand...
Utah came close to doing it right.
Maybe next round the Tech Committee will nail it!
 
Here is a buck from 2001. Back then I shot a couple times a week every week. Shooting from 50 yards to 250 yards. My 250 yard target was a 10” paper plate. I could hit it every time. Buck was shot a at 225 yards off shooting sticks kneeling. Now my eyes have a hard time shooting open sights. But with practice it can be done. Sort of like the guys that shoot traditional bows very well. It takes a lot of practice.
IMG_8516.jpeg
 
That’s impressive, I agree it should be traditional. I also remember years ago the long range muzzle loader shows up at the hunt Expo and spread like the plague through Southern Utah, so did Apples😹
 
I went down the muzzy rabbit hole also. Still have my T/C Hawkins and Renegade with multiple barrels for each. Then when White was available I bought one. Also a great muzzle loader. Then Remington came out with the 700 muzzy. Got one in .45 and one in .50 cal. Purchased aftermarket stocks and bedded them, had Jewel make me triggers. Williams peep on the .50 and 3x9 Leupold on the .45. Pretty much covered everything for me. Could hunt any state and felt I was hunting with a top tier rifle for any situation.

When Remington came out with the Ultra, CVA Paramount, or others I never tried them. Felt my rabbit hole was deep enough. I had a Browning 45/70 BPCR I was going to convert into a muzzy, but came to my senses.

Not sure now where I was going with this, but if you are allowed to run tech. you will.
 
I maintain that a muzzleloader in the hands of a skilled archery hunter is a pretty dangerous combination…

I’m waiting patiently with a decade of points, hoping that they make further restrictions to the muzzleloader game in Utah to thin the herd of applicants.

Flintlock ignition with open notched v sights would be just fine.

Or (the rules I like)

Firearms must be original or similar reproductions of muzzleloading firearms manufactured before 1800. They must also be single-barrel long guns that are .44 caliber or larger, or single-barrel handguns that are .50 caliber or larger.
 

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