Thanks NM

E

EVILNR

Very Active Member
Messages
1,696
For putting the screws to us Evil NR's. For if you had not, I would not have drawn my Idaho Bull Elk (rifle) tag. I also would not be buying OTC Mule deer, Bear and Wolf tags which are also in season. If I hadn't dropped NM like a cheating girlfriend I probably would not have even applied to go out with my new gal, Idaho. Seems to be the beginning of a wonderful relationship.Big Smile :D
 
>For putting the screws to us
>Evil NR's. For if you
>had not, I would not
>have drawn my Idaho Bull
>Elk (rifle) tag. I also
>would not be buying OTC
>Mule deer, Bear and Wolf
>tags which are also in
>season. If I hadn't dropped
>NM like a cheating girlfriend
>I probably would not have
>even applied to go out
>with my new gal, Idaho.
>Seems to be the beginning
>of a wonderful relationship.Big Smile
> :D

Enjoy the cheap date, buddy. New Mexico just went high class like Arizona and Utah. As a new Colorado resident I'm joining you in the shallow dating pool of equal opportunity hunting. Still throwing my money and respect at NM after killing so many tremendous animals there as a resident.
-Cody

http://themeateater.com/
www.streamflies.com
 
So in other words your going to Idaho to hunt Wolves.
Unit 48 is equivalent to a NM unit 50 tag.Heck the state would
have given you one of those and you wouldn't have had to travel so far.At least this season you will be hunting big game instead of Boa Constrictors.
 
If the fearmongering news outlets have it right NM is getting trainloads of new "residents" headed there way that they will enjoy supporting with their tax dollars for the next 30 years.

They'll probably lobby to get reduced price tags based on some perceived wrong LOL.
 
I'm also done applying for NM until things change there. I cant complain, I drew a great pronghorn tag as well as an oryx tag.

Between the reduction in NR DIY tag allocations, the landowner welfare tags, and outfitter sponsored welfare tags its simply not worth the investment, IMO.

The sheep tags fiasco was also handled like chit.

While I cant, and wont, blame the Resident hunters for wanting more opportunity, I will blame them for how they chose to gain access to more tags. There were better options than the course they took.

Instead of making a stand against the bullchit transferable landowner tags, where people with 2-3 acres of property are getting LO tags, they chose to stick it to NR DIY hunters.

I also think its ridiculous that a good portion of tags have to be applied for through an outfitter.

As per always, the Residents take the path of least resistance, cowered to the land owners and outfitters, and stuck it to the DIY NR hunters.

I have a faint glimmer of hope that the Resident hunters of New Mexico will one day open their eyes to the real problem with tag allocations.

New Mexico is literally giving away the farm to special interests in regard to their wildlife resources.

If things change, and I see some results via Resident hunters taking action against the tag give-aways, I will start applying again. I would also be willing to assist (monitarily and otherwise) with any course of action that NM takes to get rid of outfitter sponsored tags and/or transferable landowner tags. I'm willing to assist, but as a NR, I cant take the lead on this issue.

Until then, my money is best spent in States that afford DIY NR hunters a reasonable, and equitable, chance at a tag.
 
I don't know about Any one else but it sure gets old seeing people whine on public forums. Why not whine where it really matters. There is all these proposed changes on the game and fish website available for public comment. Yet hardly any one has sent in comments. Changes in the past have been put out for public comment and people done voice their opinion where it really matters. Instead they cry after changes are made not in their favor. How many others states can you go to and have atleast a chance at drawing a tag every year?
 
Oh cry me a river no pun intended. You NR have been crying a river over these tag allocations. The thing is 98% of resedents agree with you, but continue to talk trash.

The best quote I read in a long time,,, "at least come enjoy the tacos"! EPIC
 
Many residents do and did make comments to game commish and G&F on the tag % allocations,locked gates,outfitter pool bs and cleaning up the LO tag problems. But the commission and G&F don't care,they do what the corrupt politico's and big $ say. When we do get a good member on commission,they get replaced.

As a hunter who now never hunts outside NM for many of the reasons the whiners keep posting about here,it's worse in other states.

Points BS with creep,$165 lic fee's to just keep points,and 10 + yrs to draw tags that cost way more than here,LO tags and gift golden tags that cost way more than here,and 10%and less NR pools.

I didn't whine,I just quit applying elsewhere.
I will continue to push for getting rid of outfitter pool ,10+% NR pool,cleaning up a good program in LO tags.

See ya,don't trip on the way home. Take an illegal with you on the way,their heading to your states anyway.....AAARGGH!....sorry, I almost shed a tear..., it was just NM dust.
 
Ahhh yes, the negativity and begrudgement rears its ugly head again!
Did I draw a glory tag? Nope.
Whining? Nope.
Just remember one thing, it will be Oct, I'll be in the hills with tags in my pocket!
Good luck to EVERYBODY this fall.
 
>Ahhh yes, the negativity and begrudgement
>rears its ugly head again!
>
>Did I draw a glory tag?
>Nope.
>Whining? Nope.
>Just remember one thing, it will
>be Oct, I'll be in
>the hills with tags in
>my pocket!
>Good luck to EVERYBODY this fall.
>

Indeed, your narcissistic and negative remarks were met with narcism and negativity. Thanks for caring enough to share your Idaho hunting itinerary with your New Mexico amigos. Good luck to you in every regard.

http://themeateater.com/
www.streamflies.com
 
Hell I will be Dove and Pheasant hunting this fall instead of Big game, because I when 0-6 on states and draws.
Maybe I will get a OTC Idaho tag. LOL

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Wow, you sure seem like a joy to be around a campfire!

Best of luck in IDAHO, and keep those pics of this NM forum.
 
>
>Indeed, your narcissistic and negative remarks
>were met with narcism and
>negativity. Thanks for caring enough
>to share your Idaho hunting
>itinerary with your New Mexico
>amigos. Good luck to you
>in every regard.


Can't say it better than that.
 
>>
>>Indeed, your narcissistic and negative remarks
>>were met with narcism and
>>negativity. Thanks for caring enough
>>to share your Idaho hunting
>>itinerary with your New Mexico
>>amigos. Good luck to you
>>in every regard.
>
>
>Can't say it better than that.

LOL, you NM guys are sooooo uptight.
Relax, it's all good. I was trying to put a positive
Light on a negative situation. I mean I don't get it.
Now your upset cause I drew a tag in another state?
That's just plain envy!
Maybe I'll post pics when I get back to give y'all something
Else to hack on.LOL!
In truth, I hope you guys (crazy may,nmpaul,nmelktrout) and all
The rest kill a trophy of a lifetime this fall.

>
 
As is often the case in life, when one door gets slammed, another opens. No use crying over the slammed--make the most of open.

Good luck on your hunts.
 
+110%
Buzz I find it ironic that you are complaining about outfitter welfare. "Wilderness guide law Wyoming"

I don't like that law either. But I play with in the rules.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
I dont think you'd find it ironic at all. There are very few residents that are against the Wyoming Wilderness Guide Law. I think the law is horrible and needs to change IMO. Trouble is, the residents and outfitters have a pretty good hold on the legislature and they like the law. It would likely require an initiative and a trip to the ballot to change. Like many laws, its easier to fight them prior to becoming law. I wasnt a Resident of Wyoming when the law was passed.

I do agree though, that the WY law is a bunch of bunk. Clearly discriminatory and welfare to outfitters. No question.

I am very vocal about my displeasure with WY's law, Montana OSL's when they had those, transferable landowner tags, Alaskas guide requirement for sheep, goat, and griz.

Not sure how to be any more consistant....
 
I thought of you tonight and you post EVILNR, right before I cut into an elk tenderloin from a bull elk harvested in the Gila covered with saut?ed wild mushrooms hand picked near Chama after an amazing day of trout fishing. But it wasn't the elk that made me think of you, it was the dry ugly potato that sat next to it. On the package it said Idaho's best and well if hunting there is anything like that promise of the potato, I'll let you keep it! Tell your new gal (I - da- hoe) she may need some extra fertilizer to help her grow some nice juicy papas like the ones found in Colorado, on second thought don't tell her anything she will get plenty of bull s#!t from you to fertilize the entire state. Enjoy your Wolf stakes this fall, I hear they are amazing with Idaho russets. Either way, Good Luck to you SPUD!
 
I thought of you tonight and you post EVILNR, right before I cut into an elk tenderloin from a bull elk harvested in the Gila covered with saut?ed wild mushrooms hand picked near Chama after an amazing day of trout fishing. But it wasn't the elk that made me think of you, it was the dry ugly potato that sat next to it. On the package it said Idaho's best and well if hunting there is anything like that promise of the potato, I'll let you keep it! Tell your new gal (I - da- hoe) she may need some extra fertilizer to help her grow some nice juicy papas like the ones found in Colorado, on second thought don't tell her anything she will get plenty of bull s#!t from you to fertilize the entire state. Enjoy your Wolf stakes this fall, I hear they are amazing with Idaho russets. Either way, Good Luck to you SPUD!


Lol, that's awesome!!!! Good luck in Idaho EVIL.
 
Heres the problem New Mexico when you treat guys like that there can be ramifications.
It probably won't hurt new mexicos economy to have a few guys drop out, but it does hurt hunting in General when states do things like cut Non-resident tags and people act the way you are. First it causes an us against you attitude, state hunters against other state hunters. Its just what the antis want. The problem is they know us hunters too well and often use us against ourselves. Yeah being selfish with a few tags really didn't help your draw odds as residents, that's a fact, but it did piss a lot of guys off and then to strut around with your chest out isn't helping us out much. Some guys that can actually make a difference in the bigger scheme of things get put off by our uninformed and fool attitudes. I know a lot of guys are a bit myopic about this, but the long term prognosis for hunting and us hunters isn't all that peachy. I have a good friend that used to write some big checks to benefit hunting, but after Arizona did it and now New mexico did it and the way hunters deal with it, he writes checks to the Sierra Club. Job well done boys and if they are whining, why not listen to them instead of kick them in the *$(# on the way out. Good work boys. Im sure when your sitting around picking your a$^%^ someday wondering why you can't have a gun or hunt anymore, you'll blame it on Obama, when all along it was the hunter himself who self destructed the whole system. "Maybe next time you could say something like, I feel your pain brother, I wish it were different, but theres only so many tags and I have a few nonresident buddies who drew out. still great hunting in New Mexico, yeah it costs a bit more, but odds are still reasonable when compared to other states."

Just Sayin.

T
 
Some of you guys are way over thinking this.

If a NR could afford to apply in NM for elk with at least a $500 tag, then he can find a way to go hunting in this state, his own state or another state.

There are only so many resources for hunting, and G&F seems to think there is even more than there is with the # of tags sold for deer.

This aint the old old days that during the week a half dozen guys make the decision to go hunting one week and jump in their trucks the next weekend and buy tags at the hardware store.

If you are passionate about hunting you have to invest the time also, and the decisions that NM made will not change those guys, and though this has been beaten to death, considering their resources they were WAY WAY behind the rest of the western states.

I am just counting on EVILNR making a post like this every year for the next 20 years. If founder has the bandwith, it seems there is always plenty of interest in it.
 
NMPAUL said, "If you are passionate about hunting you have to invest the time also, and the decisions that NM made will not change those guys

I disagree. I know many passionate hunters who are done applying in NM.

I've applied for tags in NM as a NR since 2001 and will not apply again until there is some consideration given to the DIY NR hunter. I also wont apply until the Residents stand up to the transferable LO tags and the outfitter welfare programs. Its that simple. As a NR I dont have a leg to stand on trying to change that...it has to be challenged by the R hunters.

For the record, I have testified at Wyoming GF commission meetings and at the legislature in support of NR hunters. Often times I get dirty looks, lectures, and lively debate from Residents who would rather I not support NR hunters. I understand and appreciate the economy and financial support the NR hunters provide to Wyoming. In particular the DIY types who purchase hotel rooms, groceries, gas, tires, hunting supplies, etc. etc. They also pay a large portion of the license fees collected by the GF. I routinely thank NR hunters in the field for their support of the Wyomings GF and abundant wildlife.

I always felt the sheep, ibex, and oryx tags were not distributed fairly and the Residents took it in the teeth, in particular with sheep tags. That should have never happened, was wrong on every level, and I understand why Residents were not happy. I wouldnt have been either.

What gets tiresome is the "all or nothing" in most anything and everything these days. There is middle ground where you can throw the NR's a percentage of tags to keep them applying while keeping the Residents happy with the vast majority. You can also clean up the LO tags and outfitter welfare tags.

I'm 100% on board with the Residents getting 75-90% of the tags, but for the NM Residents to act the way they do toward NR hunters on this board is childish.
 
>NMPAUL said, "If you are passionate
>about hunting you have to
>invest the time also, and
>the decisions that NM made
>will not change those guys
>
>
>I disagree. I know many passionate
>hunters who are done applying
>in NM.


You completely misunderstood me. I was responding to a guy saying that somehow what NM did was going to discourage hunting in general.

As if people would quit hunting because their odds now suck in NM.

My point is that serious hunters (the type that would invest $ and time to hunt as NR in NM) most likely will not quit hunting.

Re read my post and the one I was responding to (Tooele) and you should understand Buzz.

It has all been said, so I dont want to say it all again. Did DIY NR get the shaft? Yep, that is my opinion.


Was the previous system BS? Yep, it was the least equitable of any of the western states to Resident hunters and I have applied in all of them.

The new system overall is better, but, as I mentioned NR DIY hunters got screwed because they had no representation, and they were the easy ones to screw.

The Terk ruling was a long time coming, and of course the timing was bad, but, it needed to happen (15 years ago).

I cant speak for anyone else, but, I have no animosity towards NR hunters. I think they should be able to apply for cow hunts. Lots of my friends will miss those hunts and they cannot afford bull tags.

EVILNR, likes to come on here and poke with a stick every once in awhile, and that is all good. As long as everyone has a little self control, it is entertaining to a point.

BuzzH, I agree there are certain people that will stop applying in NM. I dont blame them. Poor odds, no points, big $.
However, they will find other states to apply in like EVILNR did, and the odds in NM may get better. I doubt that though. The resources are shrinking and number of hunters are growing.

NM still has head and shoulders the BEST youth hunting opportunities of any western state, and of all things that is the most important to me.
 
NMPaul,

You have made a pretty fair assessment of the NM state of affairs. It is always good to have guys like you whom are positive thinkers.

Buzz on the other hand has not taken the time and the thinking necessary to back up his claims in regard to the Private Landowner Elk Permit system and or the 84/10/6 system of allocating public lands tags.

We are in the process of making some needed changes in tightening up the landowner permit system and really taking a hard look at it to eliminate the small acreage owners whom don't provide very much beneficial elk use on their properties all the while keeping the small landowners who provide a whole lot of benefit to elk by irrigated crops, riparian areas and etc.

We are working with the NMDGF and Commission to tweak, revamp and tighten up the system to make it more equitable to all landowners whom provide a huge share of beneficial elk use and habitat, especially this time of year. By tightening up the program we think many more tags will go back into the public draw.

I have upwards of 60 head of grown elk plus a lot of calves and among this group are over 20 bulls. They are on my alfalfa. and permanent pasture every night for four months solid. We don't want to high fence as we want to be able to provide this necessary habitat for our elk herd even though it costs me almost $7000 of extra hay I would other wise have to buy for my outfitting horses and mules. We provide a safe habitat for the cows with calves and they calve here and because they are on prime vegetation they lactate better and insure most of the calves will get big and survive. We have an elk mecca here for growing big antlers. Of the twenty bulls three are already growing out to 350-375 bulls right now. Another four or five are 300-330 and they aren't through growing. They poached the 427 bull less than a mile from my fields last year. We are propagating, promoting and ensuring a healthy elk herd here.

We are not alone. There are thousands and thousands of examples like this state wide.
 
Stoney,

Thanks to you and your neighbors and the nutrition you provide the elk during a critical period of time I have been able to hunt several great bulls, and the alfalfa fields are the sole reason. I pursed that bull for 3 years and it was a horrific day when he was found dead. It was like my best dog died, still a hole in my insides.

NM has been great to me, I have drawn several great tags and harvested some nice animals. This will be the first year in 10 yrs I haven't hunted for elk in NM. I am a NR and will never stop applying as long as there is a remote chance I can draw a Gila elk tag. I do have issues with tag allocation #'s in the guided vs the non-guided pool, and there are issues with the LO tag #'s and allotment scheme, but it still a no miss state if you want a chance at drawing a tag that allows you a possibility of chasing a great bull.

The rapidity with which things have changed in NM makes it more difficult for people to accept, hell it wasn't long ago I could hunt unit 13 OTC as a NR, 15 yrs later odds are a guy will only get drawn once every 10 yrs. I've hunted Washington, Montana, Colorado, Idaho, Arizona(resident)and Wyoming for elk and If I could only apply for 1 state(aside from AZ), it would be hands down NM.

Thanks again Stoney.

Don Roach

Antlerfools.com
 
I have a tag in unit 23 this year is this the unit you are talking about the 427 bull being poached in! if so would you give any infor on good hunting in this unit first time hunting this unit and would appreciate any infor do you allow hunting on your propertery? I have the first archery hunt thanks for your time and help in advanced!!!!

P.S. I am a new mexico resident!!!!Thanks stoney
 
Stoney,

Its all gum flapping...you havent tightened up anything except the stranglehold that private landowners and outfitters have on New Mexicos wildlife.

Talk is cheap...
 
Buzz,

Take a big drink of STFU! It has been stated over and over NM residents do not really agree with the quota allotments.

If you choose to not throw your name in the hat for a tag in NM so be it. Enjoy the OTC hunts and tag creep in other states!
 
Elkman,

You don't like it and do nothing about it.

Congratulations?

I've always got a hunting schedule that would kill an average man...fact.
 
nmelkhunter14,

Yes, I can help you and most of the private landowners go with the UW designation and their lands are open. On the land I own and rent we have no, none, zip, nauta posted signs. The elk start pulling out when the good summer rains hit (hopefully in the next few days) but many of them are still in the area and come into the fields less regularly.

Shoot me a PM and I will exchange my email and phone number with you. I have lived here for forty years and can try to help you as much as possible. If you are ever by here stop by and I would be glad to help you in anyway I can.
 
Buzz,

It is very plain that you know not of what you speak or try to make the rest of us believe.

Sad that you don't inform yourself a little bit more before bad mouthing the unique and fair to all system NM has for allocating its hunting licenses.

Have a very nice day!
 
a WI guys take on this...

I understand why NM residents were upset about the tag allocations in the past. I also completely understand how my fellow NR are not happy with the current allocations. The fact of the matter is there is A LOT of $$$ on the table here and when ever thats the case GREED muddy's the water. I have no problem with NM residents getting most of the tags, you live there, you should get the vast majority. My only problem is the idea that in order to increase my odds I have to appyly with an outfitter. Let NR have our 16% but let us decide if we want to hire an outfitter after we draw a tag. With that being said, there is nothing I'm going to do or say from WI to change the current system. I will however find a way to turn those lemons into lemonade...I applied with an outfitter this year for little to no $$ upfront with no intentions of using them as a guide. I still didn't draw a tag but at least I did everything in my power to increase my chances. Then after not drawing any of my other 49 tags that I applied for this year...I called around and found the most reasonably priced LO tag I could. The price for the tag is up substantially over the past couple years and my contact for the tag was disturbed himself at the greed that friends/other landowners are charging us (NR's) for these tags. The long term problem I see is that it feels like we're turning into ol' ENGLAND. It feels like only the people who are "wealthy" will be able to afford to have a decent hunt. I realize there are many exceptions but the general trend over the last decade is much harder to draw tags, and large increases in cost. I'm very lucky and don't have to worry about cost much but many of my friends and clients do, its a shame that its gotten to this point with no end in sight...


I wonder if the people with the most arrogant and disrespectful comments on these forums would handle themselves the same way face to face and in person?? I know during my last hunt in NM back in '09 I was following an old truck in the dark, (my brothers and myself were on ATV's) behind them. It was an hour or so before first light and we had a long drive ahead of us and wanted to drive by them, as the road opened up wide enough to go by the truck (traveling much slower than we could) we attempted to go out and around the truck, he stepped on the gas and a tried to run us off the road. I immediately hit the breaks as did my other two brothers on their ranger. As the truck came to a stop the RESIDENT got out charging at us yelling and swearing that this was his road and we weren't going to get passed him. He didn't realize that we were all young and pretty healthy boys and weren't about to back down! I replied that we were going passed him and if he didn't like it then tough luck! It dang near ended up a throw down in the headlights but he got back in the truck and that was the end of it. I was cursed up and down for being a non resident and being on his road...I had a feeling standing in the middle of the NATIONAL FOREST I paid more in FED income taxes that year than he had payed during his lifetime! The best part came around noon that day as I once again passed him and his buddies who were still road hunting (he was driving and 3 others were standing in the box with rifles in tow)...I had a beautiful 6x6 in the back of the ranger and was already on my way back to camp. I couldn't help but think yup, thats good kharma right there ;-)

My personal experience would lead most to form an opinion of NM...something like this. The residents are rude and arrogant but the hunting is too good not to go! Most on these forums go along ways to prove that isn't the case at all...and yet a few others give that opinion a lot of credibility..either way, I plan on taking another nice bull back home to WI this fall!!
 
I've hunted NM as a NR for several years and have never run across anyone the least bit rude or disrespectful. Doesn't do any good to whine about the lack of NR tags but I'm happy to see so many other NR hunters saying they will no longer apply. Better odds for me. I will continue to apply, hunt, and leave NM as beautiful as I found her. Thanks for having me!
 
Sorry guys, the good old days of easy tags for nonresidents is over. It was great while it lasted, but now we have to put up with the same or similar draw odds handed out to nonresidents in many other states. Now that I'm a non-resident it really burns. In fact it burns to the point that out of my family and buddies we went 0 for 24 on applications this year.

As for the aforementioned "stranglehold that private landowners and outfitters have on New Mexico[']s wildlife": I couldn't agree with this statement more. Although I hope the irony of that situation is not lost on several of the nonresidents that have chosen to vent to New Mexican hunters on this website. Directing your ire at every-day New Mexican hunters who want more public hunting opportunity is NOT the way to confront the landowner tag or outfitter pool problems.

Indeed, it seems that my numerous outfitter and landowner buddies sell the bulk (and in some cases all) of their landowner vouchers to nonresident hunters. Not surprisingly it seems that most of their clients applying in the outfitter pool are also nonresidents. (Granted that was not a scientific polling by any shake of a stick) So it seems that the nonresident hunters do have a voice in New Mexico and it comes in the form of money supporting landowner vouchers and the outfitter application pool. And yes, I personally know a few residents who take advantage of both programs, but most New Mexicans simply cannot afford these luxuries. A year or two ago this forum was inundated with nonresidents declaring they would no longer apply in New Mexico. Interestingly, I recall that New Mexico saw a record number (or close to a record number) of applications in the following draw.

If nonresidents really wanted to put an end to the privatization of hunting opportunity we should boycott the purchase of landowner tags and use of the outfitter pool - I just don't see that happening any time soon.

Well, for what it's worth that's my shakedown and takedown of the equation.

Happy Independence Day to all,

Cody

http://themeateater.com/
http://www.firstlite.com/
www.streamflies.com
 
Good morning gentlemen and ladies.

We have been blessed with good rains the last two or three days and the Gila is looking very good with potential to take some really big bulls this year.

New Mexicans and non-resident hunters have many great opportunities here albeit the premium tags are getting harder and harder to draw and the landowner permits are selling for record highs. It is fast becoming a rich mans sport and many of us are working tirelessly to stem the tide.

At the Sportsmen Summit held in Socorro two weeks ago and hosted by the NMWF all sides came together to start the process to hopefully tighten up the Private Land Elk License system. We are starting an effort to get a tighter handle on landowners whom truly deserve some compensation for all the support they provide for our wildlife, and especially elk, and cut the ones whom don't.

I am working closely with Game Commissioner Ramos and Game Dept. members including Cal Baca whom heads up the landowner program for the Dept. We have several ideas that will hopefully put more elk tags back into the public draw. The whole Landowner license allocation system has grown into a behemoth that need a much tighter rein and scrutiny to ensure that only the ones that whom provide the habitat for the health and continuing expansion of our elk herds as they go more and more off the public lands and on to private. NM is made up of 58% private land and 42% public land. Private landowners provide a huge portion of our expanding elk herds vitally needed habitat to flourish.

I support on the average 50 elk every night, for over four months, on the small 40 acre irrigated farm (alfalfa/permanent pasture) and it provide vital needed green feed, water, cover and safe haven for these elk during the critical spring and summer months. Almost every cow has a calf and we have over 20 bulls in this herd. We haven't gotten a landowner tags in over three years and have it appealed to the Game Dept. to have it put on the E-Plus instead of the SCR where we will be hopefully fairly compensated for our providing this vital habitat. Not only me but down the valley my neighbors help support these and many more elk with their irrigated fields. The only difference they get tags every year and because they have more acreage, to qualify for the E-Plus tags. It has cost me for five or six years upwards of $7,000 worth of hay every year, I have to buy to support my herd of twenty horses and mules I use in my outfitting business here. We don't want to high fence but just be fairly treated. IElk is my love and passion. This is one reason I am working so hard to try and make the system more fair to everyone and even the public hunters. Our properties are not posted as they are UW designated and this in itself has opened up as much as 500,000 acres of private lands that can be hunted for elk in the state of NM.

Through the Sportsmen Summit meeting we have targeted this as one of our main issues that we are working hard on now to bring some sense back into the original intent of the landowner program and bring more equity back to the public draw.

The outfitter quota is very contentious and good argument for both sides but I think is off the table for any legislative action this coming year.

I am a public lands outfitter with few to no landowner tags used and as I operate in the Gila Wilderness where there are no landowner tags I compete with 17 other outfitters for 13 tags on each archery hunt. I live on the lottery system. Last year I didn't draw hardly any and about starved to death. This year we drew better and am able to get some of my bills paid. I am not in this busines to make big money. I am doing it, and have for several decades, just for the love of hunting.

I assure you I will be in the fight for everyone, residents, non-residents, and landowners alike and hope to make New Mexico a desired designation for some of the best hunting anywhere.
 
>If nonresidents really wanted to put
>an end to the privatization
>of hunting opportunity we should
>boycott the purchase of landowner
>tags and use of the
>outfitter pool - I just
>don't see that happening any
>time soon.


That is it in a nut shell. Kabitching at residents is misdirected.
 
It's great to see outfitters and NMWF coming together on issues.

Stoney, were you representing NMCOG?

I have no problems with NRs and when I meet them while hunting I always encourage them to enjoy all our states has to offer. Then again I've never met anyone one like Evil or some rich a-hole who thinks they own the forest.
 
NMPaul,

Just curious who it was that allowed the outfitters and landowners to lay the pipe to DIY R and NR hunters in New Mexico in the first place? You going to blame the State laws that passed allowing this crap on NR of New Mexico?

You're asking NR hunters to clean up the mess that the Residents allowed to happen.

Also, a citizens/sportsmens initiative to correct the LO/Outfitter give-aways, cannot be passed by NR's of New Mexico.

Stoney,

I find it odd that all of sudden you've found a moment of clarity and that you're currently playing ball with the NMWF???

It wasnt but a few months ago, your "tune" toward the NMWF was much different.

Remember?

Here, I'll remind you:

Stoney said, "This is an old on going problem but is getting worse everyday. That is the undue influence the western states' Wildlife Federations are perpetrating on the unsuspecting sportsmen and hunters of all the western states as well as across the nation.

These groups are no friend of the true and average sportsmen and conservationist.

These groups have duped the average joe hunter for many years, and continue to infect and poison true conservation efforts with their real mission to remove ranchers, hunters, loggers, miners and recreationist from the western landscape."

It seems to me that the ONLY group in New Mexico that is a "friend of the true average sportsmen and conservationist" is the New Mexico Wildlife Federation.

Glad you've finally seen the light and flip-flopped from your wrong headed stance and views, of a couple months ago, in regard to the NMWF.

I will give you enough credit that you realize you better sit down with them...or be left in the dust.
 
Buzz, I did not allow a damn thing. Nobody asked me to make policy.

I guess you don't know how the system works.

Myself and very few average Joes have the ability or the means to affect policy.

If I did, I would not blow whatever political horsepower I had on your problems. Maybe I would insist on drug testing to receive welfare, sealing the border, or reducing the number of deer tags in NM. How is that for some random crap that is more important to me than your problems.

Like I said a couple of posts back the new system is better than the previous, though not perfect, and certainly not what I would have put in play if anyone had asked me to do it.

If it makes you feel better to cry about the residents, then knock yourself out. This whining is getting old and stupid, but, if having a place to share your problems helps your therapy, we are glad to listen.

There are no rules on this forum to keep you from making a fool of yourself.
 
Buzz,

My position hasn't changed much on the WF and I have been working with Garrett VeneKlasen the executive director for the NMWF in a civil fashion to try to come up with ways we can work together on issues that we agree on. Nothing more nothing less. The Landowner permit system is something we are working on together to help the resident hunters get a fair percentage of the licenses allocated to the private landowners by tightening up the requirement for landowner signups and inequities. This should put more licenses back into the public draw.

On almost all other issues we vehemently differ on the green liberal love of government overreach into the rural people's lives and well beings and they use the unsuspecting few hunters whom gloss over the WF's so called conservation ethics, to bolster their membership and give them puffed up chests, such as your's Buzz. The WF's want more government control i.e. National Monuments, unrestricted stream access, restrict public land mineral and oil production, fracking, pro wolves, pro grizzlies, pro sage grouse habitat to stop oil and gas production and on and on ad nauseum.

Nothing has changed with the conservative side of the equation other than we are trying to wake up the resident sportsmen to the fallacies and liberal agenda of the WF's.

At the Sportsmen Summit held in Socorro, NM a couple of weeks ago it was truly amazing to see and witness some of the WF members and their true ignorance and ineptitude. The NMWF is hated by most resident sportsmen, The NM Game & Fish Dept. and the NM Game & Fish Commission. As long as we have a republican governor the WF folks don't make much hay in this state.

I don't imagine you and your fellow WF morons in Wyoming have much say in the great State of Wyoming. Maybe you could get a membership in the Center for Biological Diversity as your agendas are more in tune with them than the true conservative sportsmen.
 
NMPaul,

You avoided the question, nothing new there. The red herring excuses were also a nice touch. NM Residents did allow the LO/Outfitter set asides to happen. Apparently you think the LO and Outfitter sponsored tag programs just mysteriously happened??? I'm well aware of how the system works, and also well aware of how NM resident hunters found themselves in the mess they're in right now. NM resident hunters allowed themselves to be steam-rolled by the outfitters and landowners. There is a price to pay for complacency.

Congratulations?

Theres a reason why WY doesnt have a transferable LO tag program or an outfitter sponsored license. The WY Resident hunters care enough about the sport and the NAM to not allow it to happen in the first place. Not that it hasnt been proposed via legislative action, just that the sportsmen in WY are organized enough, and active enough, to stop it. Something severely lacking in NM.

Stoney,

I understand your fear of the NMWF...they do get things done for the average hunter and have a lot of influence over conservation, hunting, and land management in NM. They've had some great success there, and rumor has it they have formed some new partnerships.
 
"I dont think you'd find it ironic at all. There are very few residents that are against the Wyoming Wilderness Guide Law. I think the law is horrible and needs to change IMO. Trouble is, the residents and outfitters have a pretty good hold on the legislature and they like the law. It would likely require an initiative and a trip to the ballot to change. Like many laws, its easier to fight them prior to becoming law."

Buzz,

You seem to have a double standard when it comes to criticizing NM residents. Like most western states the Cattlemen association had been the most power organization in the state from territorial times throughout the early history of statehood. For as long as I can remember there has been agricultural seats on the Game commission. This gives them a lot of influence with policy.

A couple of years ago many people worked hard to increase the percentage of tags Residents received and I am very grateful to those people. The original bill called for a straight split between residents and non-residents without a outfitter subsidy. As with most bills a compromise had to be worked out. That is politics and that is not specific to NM.

Bottom line is the Cattlemen's association and NMCOG have political power in our state and eliminating LO tags or the outfitter subsidy is not politically feasible. At least no more than eliminating those things in Wyoming or Alaska. This year Colorado just increase LO tags and is starting to look a little more like our system, hopefully it will not snowball in Colorado.

Seeing NMCOG and NMWF working together gives me hope. Are they going to fix all the problems with the landowner system, of course not. Any improvement is welcomed.
 
>NMPaul,
>
>You avoided the question, nothing new
>there. The red herring excuses
>were also a nice touch.
>NM Residents did allow the
>LO/Outfitter set asides to happen.
>Apparently you think the LO
>and Outfitter sponsored tag programs
>just mysteriously happened??? I'm well
>aware of how the system
>works, and also well aware
>of how NM resident hunters
>found themselves in the mess
>they're in right now. NM
>resident hunters allowed themselves to
>be steam-rolled by the outfitters
>and landowners. There is a
>price to pay for complacency.
>
>
>Congratulations?
>
>Theres a reason why WY doesnt
>have a transferable LO tag
>program or an outfitter sponsored
>license. The WY Resident hunters
>care enough about the sport
>and the NAM to not
>allow it to happen in
>the first place. Not that
>it hasnt been proposed via
>legislative action, just that the
>sportsmen in WY are organized
>enough, and active enough, to
>stop it. Something severely lacking
>in NM.


Lets get it straight. I did not avoid a question. There was no question to avoid.
It was you that had a reading comprehension problem from the very beginning.

Here is my suggestion. Get a life. I have a life and your problems are just not that interesting to me.

This is like arguing with my wife. There is no point to this.

I could care less about your issues. I think you are weird for trying to drag me and others into your stupid little drama.

Find another purpose to your life rather than trying to provoke arguments with the NM residents. The current system is way better than the previous one. It took this long to get to this point.
 
Arguing with people like Buzz is like arguing with a sack of lug nuts... Intertaining but dosent acomplish anything.
The NM split is what it is... most of us have delt with it an moved on... whining on an internet board will not change anything... LOL
Jack
 
I understand why the NM Residents are so defensive about the way they've been "handled" by the outfitters and landowners there.

I would be too if my wildlife and hunting opportunities were being handed to special interests to the tune of thousands of buck/bull permits a year.

Nothing better than "landowners" with 2-3 acres getting bull elk permits every year while you gals face chitty draw odds and get to hunt a bull every once in while.

But, hey, at least you knocked it out of the park with them cow permits!

How gracious of the LO's and Outfitters to let you manage their bull-to-cow ratios and keep the cow elk off their alfalfa.

WOW!
 
>I understand why the NM Residents
>are so defensive about the
>way they've been "handled" by
>the outfitters and landowners there.
>
>
>I would be too if my
>wildlife and hunting opportunities were
>being handed to special interests
>to the tune of thousands
>of buck/bull permits a year.
>
>
>Nothing better than "landowners" with 2-3
>acres getting bull elk permits
>every year while you gals
>face chitty draw odds and
>get to hunt a bull
>every once in while.
>
>But, hey, at least you knocked
>it out of the park
>with them cow permits!
>
>How gracious of the LO's and
>Outfitters to let you manage
>their bull-to-cow ratios and keep
>the cow elk off their
>alfalfa.
>
>WOW!

Actually Buzzed, there is an element of truth in your last post.

In fact as DIY Residents we are so ineffective and have so little political clout that we had the worse system for Residents in any Western state until the last couple years.

Fair enough?

With that being said, I guess your argument that we are some how to blame for the crap deal the DIY NR got is shot to hell.

You cant have it both ways. I hope you can some how find peace with all this.
 
buzz, you are completely right about the landowners and outfitters screwing the residents. and yes it's partly our fault but not all. the game comission is at most fault since that is primarily what it's made up of. the residents haven't had much say in things so far. no doubt it's a biased system and not toward residents or NR's. we're just funding the welfair for the landowners and outfitters. now there are a lot of landowners who are doing things right and probably getting what they deserve, but there are a lot who aren't. the outfitters are just the folks leaching off of a bad system.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-14 AT 05:19AM (MST)[p]Are we talking resident opportunity to be able to hunt in NM??

This year I know one fellow from Roswell whom drew and get this:

Antelope Muzzle uit 29
Barbary Sheep Rifle unit 29 30
Deer Rifle unit 8
Elk Rifle unit 4/Sargents
Oryx rifle White Sands Missle Range

Is he one lucky son of a gun or what? Maybe there is hope for the resident hunters to be able to hunt this great state and the great system we have now?

The big issue is the very high demand for trophy elk units and that is where the rub is. A resident can hunt every year in NM, it might just not be unit 16D or 16A or 17 for big elk, or the other better trophy quality units.

Residents and non-residents alike can hunt Turkey, Javelina, Waterfowl, and small game each and every year and yet it comes down to big bull elk and elk hunting in general.

Buzz's take on cow elk hunting is laughable at best. He didn't ferret out anything other than something else to complain about.

Enough of the bitching already you cry babies.
 
stoney,

You dont believe that LO and Outfitters have taken it to the Resident hunters in New Mexico?

WOW!

I think its a "great" system you have in place where the "landowners" with 2-3 acres get to either sell bull elk tags or hunt quality units each year. Of course the oufitters also work with the LO's that get those transferable tags and sell hunts as well as the tags to their clients.

These threads expose the truth in regard to how corruption with the landowners and outfitters sponsored tag programs hurt Resident and Non Resident DIY hunters.

It also serves as a warning to States that dont have either outfitter sponsored tags or transferable landowner tags to do everything they can to keep them out of their states.

Wyoming has been very successful in keeping out Ranching for Wildife programs, transferable landowner tags, and also any kind of outfitter sponsored licenses. I dont see any of those programs getting any kind of traction here. Montana also did away with their Outfitter Sponsored Licenses as well, clearly proving that Sportsmen can, and do, change policy.

New Mexico Resident Sportsmen need to unite and get the current train wreck of LO and Outfitter tag programs stopped. An organized bunch of Sportsmen are a political heavy weight that have the ability to sway elections and demand policy change. Time for New Mexico to take back THEIR public wildlife and quit giving it away to corruption and greed.

The spin off of New Mexico Residents helping themselves, is that they will also be helping Non Residents as well. Win-win, with the upside being, there isnt a downside.

Oh, and Stoney, let me guess how the "compromise" with the cow tags going to Residents happened.

You sold them that snake oil by making claims like, "you cant eat horns", "Those old mature bulls are like shoe leather", and the age old "Any elk is a trophy".

What a joke, I'd of told whoever was at the table negotiating that, to stick it in their arse. I'm not going to be used as a management tool for keeping elk herds in check for the benefit of LO's and Outfitters, without having a bigger piece of the bull permits.
 
Buzz,

Wrong again! Quite to the contrary the LO's and Outfitters have insured that our elk herd expanded since the inception of the program from a paltry 30,000 to 40,000 to an ever growing 90,000+.

This would not have been possible other wise with out the dedication, blood sweat and tears and hard work to reward the landowner's with incentive to allow elk on to their private properties, never before having few to no elk. The state of NM is comprised of 41.8% federal public lands. It would and never will support 90,000 and growing elk with out the private property owners. The private property owners also support the lion's share of the antelope herds.

Without the Landowner elk and antelope system devised by the Game Department and Commission and the hard work to compensate in a legal fashion all the while providing incentives to allow the herds to grow. Most of these landowners had never had the elk depredation prior to the elk being released on federal public lands and they herds prospered and spread out onto the private holdings.

The resident and non-resident hunters should be thankful for this program as they would have 1/3 to 1/2 less opportunity to harvest these private land/public lands wildlife. All we hear from the WF members and the duped sportsmen whom have been lied to and propagandized by you folks, is a bunch of crying and whining because you aren't able to further your agenda of liberal conservatism.

Other states should take heed to the success of our programs and Colorado is going our way fast because they see the need to work closely with private landowners to propagate their herds and all the while growing more wildlife for all to benefit from.

Regardless, a landowner who has 2 or 3 or 100,000 acres is entitled to participate in the program if that parcel is providing significant benefit to the elk or antelope herds. If the landowner's 1 acre is a vital source of spring and summer feed, water or other beneficial use by elk and many have small irrigated crops and or pasture that have long been only used by their livestock and then in the 1980's elk moved in and ate a huge share of their annual income that used to support their few head of livestock.

We are working closely with Cal Baca, NMDGF landowner programs manager and Ralph Ramos NMDGF Commissioner along with the NMWF, the NMCOG, RMEF and all sportsmen groups to open up and take a hard look at straightening up the program so only the landowners whom truly provide significant benefit to the health of the elk herds are included in the program. We have some new tweaks to the formulas, significant increased monitoring of elk usage on all landowners, and needed changes to bring the program into rewarding only landowners whom do truly support and propagate the elk herds.

"Their" public wildlife wouldn't be near as plentiful with out the support of the landowners. Get over it Buzz private property is the key to expanding our herds providing more public licenses for resident and non-residents alike. The public land can't and will not ever be able to hold the numbers of wildlife that are so in high demand in this ever expanding population growth and the extreme desire to hunt elk.

The cow tags and the WMA were not the outfitter's ideas, it was the NMWF pet legislator George Munoz (D) Gallup, whom came up with the idea. Hell the outfitters lost a huge part of our late season revenues and we used to take a lot of cow hunters. The resident hunters like it because their are many whom are just meat hunters and the cow hunts are extremely popular. You are just twisting the facts to promote and further you hell bent cause of badmouthing and bitching about, your seeming lack of opportunity and fair tale of your liberal so call conservation. Baloney! You green agenda is taking this great nation down by your going along with the radical environmental programs of stopping all consumptive uses on the public land. Wake up buddy or like I said earlier maybe you can join the Wild Earth Guardians or the Center for Biological Diversity, as your agenda mirrors thiers to a T, only you are too ignorant or too in love with your hyped up self worth as a so called conservationist. Hell the private landowners with the help of true conservationists made and brought our wildlife numbers back to what they are today and don't think for a minute people of your ilk have done much about the true conservation movement. You guys hinder and block many things such as the very successful Landowner program.

I bet you won't stop coming back to NM for many of your hunting needs. How is the Oryx you got last winter. They are delicious table fare. You don't have anything like that in Wyoming and the many more species we have here for the enjoyment of all sportsmen.

Now go back to your worthless federal government job and waste more taxpayer money, like most federal employees, and especially the USFS. They are the most hated agency in the West bar none.
 
im a resident and i disagree with you stoney. i guess when you say the system is successful, you mean for the LO's and outfitters? you seriously think it's fair to give a tag to someone with 1 acre? and you think it's fair to give tags in units where the LO's don't own land? and you think its fair that the LO tags can choose their own dates that don't coincide with the public hunts? and you think it's fair that LO's can choose their own weapons such as hunt with a rifle in a unit designated for only bow and muzzleloader for the general public? i take it your either a LO or an outfitter. guess it just depends on what you stand to gain. i personally don't think it's a good system at all.

btw, ralph is a great guy, but he's also an outfitter.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-14 AT 01:04PM (MST)[p]As a outsider it's VERY clear who Stoney is looking out for. Thx for improving the elk herd but I don't want somebody holding my hand.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-08-14 AT 01:59PM (MST)[p]Stoney,

I find it pretty entertaining when you start the name calling. Green, liberal, etc.

I always figured the more flak a person takes, the closer they are to directly over the target. I can assure you this is the case with this discussion.

Rather than try to debate with facts, you drag up your usual rhetoric from the same worn out play book, trying to hide the facts under the cloak of supposed "conservative" values you claim to have.

I'm just wondering how your "conservative" values allow you to sleep at night knowing that LO's and Outfitters are being subsidized via the States Wildlife? Giving landowners direct payments in the form of transferable tags, which is nothing more than the privatization of the Publics Wildlife Resources. Hard for me to find much of a conservative slant on tag welfare for outfitters and landowners. It just doesnt jive with free market, stand on your own two feet, conservative values.

It would make more sense, from a conservative standpoint, to do away with the outfitter tag welfare. Let R and NR hunters apply under the existing 84-16 tag split and then allow those that draw the choice of hiring an outfitter or not. That makes the most sense for two reasons:

1. You create a totally fair market for the allocation of the PUBLIC wildlife Resource.

2. You dont prop up the outfitting industry, where those looking for better odds at a tag, are required to subsidize an outfitter via PUBLIC wildlife. The outfitting businesses either succeed or fail based on performance, rather than just their ability to increase someones draw odds.

Thats a huge win-win, those that draw tags are given a choice, the shady outfitters are shown the door, and the best outfitters provide the best service possible to those choosing to use their services.

As to the landowner tag issue, I agree that private landowners, in some cases, are excellent stewards of the land and the publics wildlife. I have no problem rewarding those individuals with non-transferable LO tags, unit specific, based on wildlife usage, and good for their deeded land only.

Further, if they want to make more, let them lease their deeded ground to an outfitter, charge trespass fees, or enroll in a program like Montanas Block Management or Wyomings Access yes programs.

There is NO reason for transferable landowner tags when landowners clearly have avenues to control wildlife numbers on their deeded ground, as well turn a profit via access.

Again, I find no conservative slant to a system that subsidizes LO's with publically owned wildlife resources.

If you truly are "conservative" like you claim, I have no idea why you would be in support of a State Program that subsidizes LO's and Outfitters with a public wildlife.

It just doesnt add up, and seems pretty hypocritical of you to call anyone liberal. It would serve you well to take a good look in the mirror before you accuse anyone of being liberal again.
 
You guys need to go back and read my post again. None of your comments make sense against the landowner permit system. You guys miss the point and the facts.

The landowner permit system has been and is very successful in the greatly increased size of NM's elk herd, which would not have happened other wise. Their would have been depredation hunts to protect the private landowner and the elk herds would be struggling to live in the great numbers they are now if they were restricted to public lands.

One acre of alfalfa on the edge of the Federal public land supports the health and propagation of our elk herds tremendously when the private landowner whom has been hit with big numbers of elk, is wiped out financially. I could go on and on with the worth of no matter what the size of acreage is enrolled in the program, if it significantly contributes to the well being of the elk, and the landowner is damaged financially, it is better to reward him rather than just have the Game Dept. go in and shoot the elk or have open season on them. Pretty darn simple isn't it boys.

As far as non-transferable tags and ranch only designation that is fine if the place is big enough and or holds elk year round and especially during hunting seasons. If the tags is non transferable they would be devalued and nix the compensation the landowner deserves. This is moronic at best Buzz and you seem to not grasp the Private Landowner Elk License system. It is very complex and the law is 6 pages long. We are working hard to improve it.

You guys still cry and whine about the program and mainly rail against outfitters in total ignorance and hatred toward us. That is a good debate and will get into that later. Right now look up NM Statute "Title 19 Chapter 30 Part 5 Private Land Elk License Allocation" and enlighten yourselves into the complex law that guides the system. We are working hard to make the system better for the public land draw portion of the formula and all i get is a bunch of crap at how bad the evil old outfitters are and how we are the root of all your hunting opportunity challenges. The program consist of the E-Plus, The SCR (Small contributing Ranch) and the O-Plus or out of the core landowners RO tags. Read the whole statue and learn what you should know before all of the lip flapping over it.

Get a life Buzz. You seem to not have clue as to your situation in your simple liberal based conservatism. I can read you the book, draw you the maps and you still screw the teacher. What more can I say? Oh believe me I could go on and on about your peculiar conservation ethic.

The "public wildlife" you seem to keep harping on is being supported in a huge way by private landowners and the allocation of licenses, while not perfect, is being looked at hard to make it more fair to all sides.
 
What a joke!

Make it 90/10 Hire a dang outfitter, if you want.

Oh, you are keeping the elk alive on your alfalfa fields RIGHT!

Those poor elk!
 
Elkman,

How shallow your thinking goes. Do you not realize that if it weren't for private landowners elk numbers would be a whole lot less and you would have much less hunting opportunity than you do today.

You are the joke and a misinformed mouthpiece for the road to no where. You want it all for your selfish self gratification and simple minded scheme of the way wildlife is managed in NM.

Danged old outfitters anyway. They are the cause of all of your not being able to draw a premium elk tag in NM. It has nothing to do with the fact that there are more and more demand and applicants for these trophy units.
 
same difference. the LO system is just another subsidy, nothing more. it's a pretty liberal system if you ask me. and if you wanna start name calling there's plenty of whining from the LO's and outfitters. the current LO system sucks.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-09-14 AT 08:16AM (MST)[p]Far from it ropin, it is a form of depredation compensation as the Game Dept. cannot directly compensate landowners for direct depredation damages so the LO system was instituted to make it a legal way to take care of the depredation claims.

You as a resident hunter are the truly subsidized hunter as the non-residents pay your way so you can hunt cheap and still draw some kind of elk tag every year, just not the unit 16D,A and 15 and 17 trophy unit tags. The fight from your side is solely over the trophy units. You have so much opportunity in NM is it absolutely mind boggling to hear all the moans and groans from the subsidized resident hunters.
 
we'll just agree to disagree.

it started out as depredation but is now about a supplimental or primary source of income for LO's. Opinions vary directly on what your finanial gain is. personally, i don't see why the government needs to "compensate" the landowners for damages anyway. again, just another handout. we wanna start subidizing every industry or business that looses money? talk about a liberal sysem.

i like the 80/20 or 90/10 and hire an outfitter if you like. if we're talking business, that's a much more capitalistic approach. if we're talking managing game or depredation, why not just add more tags to the draw and if the LO has a problem them they have to allow hunters to enter. they can even charge access fees. makes much more sense to me.
 
Ropinfool,

I couldnt agree more with you. Its more than apparent that the entitlement attitude is deeply entrenched in the LO and Outfitter lobby.

What did stoney say, "the landowners "deserve" transferable tags".

If thats not an entitlement attitude I dont know what is.

It makes no sense to issue unit wide transferable landowner bull elk tags to take care of depredation. If they want to take care of depredation, issue them non-transferable LO cow permits. If they still have depredation problems, allow limited public access to shoot cows. Last I checked, you dont control an elk depredation problem by hammering bulls. Bottom line is, they arent worried about depredation, only about how much they can sell their transferable bull tags for.

There is already a mechanism in place, called trespass fees and/or leasing, to compensate LO's for big-game damage if the money is all that matter to them.

There is NO place for transferable landowner tags or outfitter sponsored tags. Its in defiance of the North American Model and a welfare/subsidy program to assure business to oufitters and landowners. Period, end of story. It takes away hunting opportunties from the average guy, in particular the Residents.

So much for capitalism, free markets, and keeping the State out of private enterprise.
 
Some good ideas from both of you.

Ropin the 80/20 sounds fair and is something the outfitters could probably live with but the 90/10 is putting us in the AZ realm with premium tags almost impossible to ever draw.

Buzz, your cow hunt idea is pretty much right on also.

In today's high demand market for the premium trophy bull tag units is has become somewhat of an entitlement. The only thing I would correct you on is that many landowners with the incentive and or unit wide tags that are more valuable it replaces their lost income from elk depredation especially in this modern explosion of the elk herd which is a win win for both sides and gives the landowners an incentive to accept the elk and actually keep from high fencing and in turn provides for the expansion of the elk herds both onto the public land which mostly neighbors most of the SW landowners private property.

Unit 4 has an absolute ton of almost total private lands and is a core elk area and they are all RO tags as it should be. These are mostly small landowners whom have been over whelmed with the expanding elk herds, and has totally changed the way they have always depended on their small acreages to support their small herds of livestock to make their livings.

We are working hard to bring the needed changes into the landowner program to put many more tags back in the public draw. Your ideas are good for the most part and will be included in our further discussions with the Game Dept.

By the way our new Director Alexa Sandoval of the NM Dept. of Game & Fish seems to very sharp and being an ex-game warden is keenly tuned in and informed on our proceeding and I think will be a big help to bring the needed reforms. She is a very sharp cookie and not timid. We are expecting great things from her.

Also Garrett VeneKlasen (CEO) and Joel Gay from the NMWF are in tune with the proceedings and we look forward to a good working relationship on this matter. Joel as their Communications Director puts out one of the best NM wildlife and conservation newspapers, the NMWF "Outdoor Reporter", and I think will be much more positive in the future without the liberal propaganda slant it has had for many years under their previous executive directors. With that said we still are at opposite ends of the conservation scale, on many issues.
 
Hey Stone,

Swallow thinking huh?

If you want to debate, I will tie half of my brain behind my back to make it fair!

I would be for 80/20, 90/10.

Like Rope said why should you be subsidized? If there is damage to acreage etc, there are means to control that.

Someone living in the boot heal should not get permits for unit 51 etc.
 
Elkman,

I see you hide behind a no name on this Monster Muley site and where are you at in helping get the things you want so bad. Do you actually come and get involved or just ##### from your soap box tree stand.

Bring on the debate as I would take you on any day of the week and twice on Sundays. At least you admit to having at least a half brain to hang somewhere. The other half, well it shows by your simple minded comments just how really mis-informed you are and you seem to just blow smoke and not even have a clue of what you speak!

When you can come back at me with exactly and in detail how we are subsidized bring that on also. I hunt mainly the Gila Wilderness and in 2013 there were 17 outfitters putting in for 13 tags each hunt so now that is really a guarantee that any one of the 17 outfitters can even draw one or two and now that is really living the good life and high on the hog. Like I have said numerous times the non-resident hunters subsidize you residents by the tune of 8 times making your hunting licenses darn right cheap. No?
 
ive talked to alexa and she seems pretty open. btw, i grew up in a ranching family so i see both sides. ive always had a hard time with subsidies. it just goes against my right wing conservative thinking lol. funny how the majority of LO's are republican "conservatives" yet they will give you a hundred reasons why they have their hand out and deserve to be subsidized. im all for preserving our heritage and wildlife, but im not willing to give handouts. if the elk are eating your alfalfa, then put up a high fence at your expense and raise the price of you hay. if you can't sell it, then you might not make a profit but that's business. so on and so on..... there are better solutions here i believe. the gm&f needs to step up and manage the wildlife and quit letting LO's, etc do their thinking for them. i know i'm just a small fish in a big pond and my opinion isn't the popular one. i just refuse to call this current system a good one when it's not.
 
Rope,

Exactly! That is why we are working so hard to make the system equitabel to the ones whom truly support propagate and help increase the herd for your and all resident and non-resident hunters. To deny other wise is burying your head in the sand. I refuse to high fence my acreage because I am willing to help get our wildlife through the dry part of the spring and summer and increase the hunting opportunities for everyone on the UW SCR farms we are irrigating. The one 40 acre parcel with the present formula does not have enough "weighted acres" to qualify for the E-Plus system that enable the landowner to get a tag or two every year. Yet we support 30-60 head of elk every night and provide a safe habitat in the River bottom and surrounding FS Cedar Breaks hills. This herd has over 20 bulls (some real big ones) and over 30 cows with 17 calves on the big cows and the rest yearling heifers. We are Small Contributing Ranch designation which is a drawing and haven't drawn a tag for 4 years. We have it under appeal and this is one of thousands of examples of what is currently going on with the LO system that needs some correction.

Conservatives, liberals, Democrats, Independents, Republicans, Libertarians and all walks of life are landowners and up until a few years ago most had no elk on their private lands. this is why the Dept. and all interested parties worked for many years to come up with a legal way to compensate for depredation of the private lands that are vital to the health and welfare of the ever expanding elk herd in NM.

To blindly not see this and keep whining about subsidies, you need to get involved to help us correct the wrongs and the inequities in the system and help us tighten it up to bring many more tags that deserve to be in the public draw rather than the tags going to some landowner whom has jumped on the big dollar band wagon when they may contribute very little to the well being of our elk.

Stay connected to this relatively new movement to convene a State Wide Committee to take a long hard look at how to make the system work better for all and especially put more tags back into the public draw. I will be meeting with the Game Dept. Lands Director Cal Baca soon and we the NM Council of Outfitters and Guides are working hard with the NMWF and other sportsmen groups to hopefully make the system better and fair to all sides. Game & Fish Commissioner Ramos is working very hard to help all of this happen.
 
in small acreage cases like that, if a tag is given at all, in my opinion, it should be only cow tags not bull. for that matter maybe all depredation tags should only be cow tags. common sense to me says that if i want to thin the herd i need to get rid of cow's, not bulls....but i ain't a biologist lol.

glad your doing your part. the gm&f/comission needs to get equal imput from all parties and not be so biased. it's just more politics and who's got more weight than anything else, but that's normal i guess. it's all about money, right. good discussion!
 
Rope,

In many or most instances where heavy elk use is present on private property a cow tag or two doesn't pay the depredation damage. Most of us do not want to reduce the cow herd and we desire to make our elk herds more productive which in turn provides more hunting opportunity and public tags.

Be sure and participate when you can as all voices should be heard and your ideas are desired and needed by all sides to come up with an improved system that is sorely needed.
 
Stoney,
I agree and I believe most residents as me see mismanagement of the system in regards to LO that have very small parcels receive compensations for land that bares no livestock, or help the wildlife. What the elk tear up their fences? Now for those of you LO like you who provide a safe haven water food, etc for the elk, yes you should be compensated and I thank you. Just not sure what or how much?! I definitely agree and understand that you provide a service to wildlife. I have hunted many years both in my native state CO and in New Mexico for 25 years. I have never hunted horn and never will. I enjoy the whole hunt weather I tag an animal or not. I have taught my son the many lessons learned in hunting such as perseverance, making sure your bow, rifle, muzzleloader, etc.. are working well and sighted in for a quick clean kill, Understanding death, care of meat, and the gift you have just received.. Unfortunately IMO we are a dying bread as hunting and especially elk (Bulls) has become a big money game that has and will continue to corrupt many people now and for the years to come.
 
It is very simplistic.

Make it a 80/20, 90/10 spilt.

Issue tags for cows for depredation. Charge a trespass fee and make sure they are not scum bags and hopefully they are kids etc.

If some of these big ranches throw their cow tags in the trash, take away bull permits.

I am not dumb, and I know it is NM. This corrupt system will not change much. I have seen it happen firsthand on an area that is not even in my radar to apply for anymore.
 
Love,

I am also a native of Colorado, spent my first thirty years there and have been down here in SW NM for forty years and we love it here. I have hunted elk since I was old enough to walk behind my dad in the Flattops of NW CO. My Great Grandad John Franklin Bird guided Teddy Roosevelt in Yampa, Colorado for big mule deer in 1899.

We are trying to clean up the LO system that will address the landowners whom provide little to no elk benefit no matter what acreage they own. An acre or two of crops means a whole lot to a landowner and his livelihood, and in many many cases to the elk. some huge ranches are way over compensated with huge amounts of tgs and sometimes I wonder if they actually provide that muchj benefit. There are a lot inequities.

I'm with you on the big money game. My daughter's neighbor south of Reserve in 16A (w/10 acres) got $9500 for a MB tag in 16A this year. Absolutely mind boggling! Commissioner Ramos has some ideas on this problem and it may come to some radical change to the whole program if the whole behemoth isn't reined in.
 
Stoney.

Love the flattops grew up in Glenwood Springs great country. Came from 4 generations.. I wish you luck and look forward to the reform.
 
you sounds like a good guy stoney and yes more folks from all parties need to get more involved.

on a separate note, the coyoties are eating my barn cats....wonder if the state will "compensate" me for them. my kids get pretty attached.....and we wouldn't wanna get the hantavirus. that could sure cost me a lotta money!
 
'pinfool,

Your barn cats are coming onto my property and eating the food I leave out for my rabbits. Should I shoot the cats your kids are so attached to? Or, do I continue to feed your barn cats until I can afford to put up a high fence to keep your barn cats out of my property? Or do you prefer I call you at 3AM every other night, when your barn cats are eating my rabbits' food? Or do you prefer I call you while you are at work after I've had to come home from work in the middle of the day to shoo away your barn cats? See, the thing is, I raise my rabbits to put meat on my table and I don't really mind your barn cats because my kids like them too, except that they are eating me out of house and home. I've noticed that when your barn cats finish eating the scraps you give them, they come over to my property because they like to eat the food I put out for my rabbits.

Never mind. I don't care about your barn cats anymore. I have a lot of friends who like to shoot varmints...I think I'll charge them a trespass fee and let them shoot your barn cats when they come on my property. Oh, wait, the barn cats only show up in the middle of the night and the middle of the day, but the 'barn cat hunting rules' only allow barn cat hunting from 5PM to 6PM every other Tuesday. Since I'm an ethical rabbit rancher, it looks like I'm out of luck and I'll have to suck it up. Pretty soon I'll have to sell my rabbits just so your barn cats can have free range!
 
Isn't NM a fenced out state anyways? Meaning if you dont want another persons barn cats or elk on your property, it's your responsibility to fence them out? Maybe I'm wrong just what I've heard.
 
It's a "Fence Out" state for cattle. But if a rancher doesn't want elk to come onto his property he asks G&F to buy him a fence or shoots elk whenever he wants.

Or if the cattle can't get to the Wildlife Habitat Improvement guzzler because of the fence constructed to keep them out, the rancher cuts the fence or turns a blind eye when his cattle bust through it, which is why all new HSP are incorporating welded pipe fencing instead of barbed wire.

Wish it weren't so. Many parties pushing for reform of the entire landowner tag process.

I've always heard that prior to the elk LO system the #1 complaint for property damage was from beavers. Not sure if this is true, perhaps someone can confirm?
 
I agree beavers are detrimental. I've known men who lost house and home as a result of beavers that weren't from their spread. I do what I can to protect the environment and eat me some beaver every third chance I get. In my experience NM beaver is by far the tastiest. The pelts are clean and don't require me to go all the way up to Idaho to get me some. Let me know how the beavers are up in Idaho EVILNR. That is if you can get any.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-14 AT 06:46AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-14 AT 06:37?AM (MST)

I have some good friends with ranches in the gila. It is truly unbelievable how many landowner tags they get for the ranch. I would be very surprised if they have enough bulls tht live on the ranch than the numbers Of tags they could get every year. They don't use them all cause even they know they could never shoot that many elk of it every year. I have been there several times and when I think of that many tags bein authorized for the place it makes me cringe to think if they sold them all what would happen to the entire area for miles including public land. The residents try real hard to limit the evil non resident hunter while at the same time French kiss the landowners by giving tags away like their growing on trees. Most ranches are ranch only tags so this doesn't open crap to be hunted for everyone involved. Meanwhile all the elk that dare to go to the private get slaughtered with lo tags. Who is naive enough to think that the elk stay on these ranches cause I've been watching them jump the fence for 14 years into public. Screw the DIY non residents and French kiss the landowners selling their tags to guess what, rich non residents. Does anyone see the irony hear. If I was a holier than though New Mexico resident right now I would wonder who was the head and who was the ass. Seems the ass is leading the head around and several are proud of being lead by the ass there.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-14
>AT 06:46?AM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-14
>AT 06:37?AM (MST)
>
>I have some good friends with
>ranches in the gila.
>It is truly unbelievable how
>many landowner tags they get
>for the ranch. I would
>be very surprised if they
>have enough bulls tht live
>on the ranch than the
>numbers Of tags they could
>get every year. They don't
>use them all cause even
>they know they could never
>shoot that many elk of
>it every year. I have
>been there several times and
>when I think of that
>many tags bein authorized for
>the place it makes me
>cringe to think if they
>sold them all what would
>happen to the entire area
>for miles including public land.
>The residents try real hard
>to limit the evil non
>resident hunter while at the
>same time French kiss the
>landowners by giving tags away
>like their growing on trees.
>Most ranches are ranch only
>tags so this doesn't open
>crap to be hunted for
>everyone involved. Meanwhile all the
>elk that dare to go
>to the private get slaughtered
>with lo tags. Who is
>naive enough to think that
>the elk stay on these
>ranches cause I've been watching
>them jump the fence for
>14 years into public. Screw
>the DIY non residents and
>French kiss the landowners selling
>their tags to guess
>what, rich non residents. Does
>anyone see the irony hear.
>If I was a holier
>than though New Mexico resident
>right now I would wonder
>who was the head and
>who was the ass. Seems
>the ass is leading the
>head around and several are
>proud of being lead by
>the ass there.

Excellent post, spot on I'd say!
 
I have read most of this crap on this post!! HOWEVER it does suck that the NR cant hunt anymore, I was born in Farmington and went through high school in Grants, Hunted Taylor and the Zuni's my whole life, Moved to FLA and cant hunt MY HOME RANGE anymore really pisses me off. I made the choice to move but I always came back to NM to see Family and go Hunting! IT REALLY DOES SUCK. JUST MY FEELINGS no political agenda!!!!
 
Couesmagnet,

Landowner tags that are RO are the big ranches that have somewhat resident elk populations but the majority of the smaller ranches except up north are UW and last year it amounted to over 300,000 acres of private land opened up to public hunting and much of it very good elk hunting if you catch the elk on the property during the hunt. On my and most of my neighbors in unit 23 it is UW and open to the public and many good bulls have been killed on this private land by public elk tag hunters the last several years.

As far as doing cows only on the landowner system it wouldn't amount to much compensation to most of the really deserving landowners whom provide elk habitat. Many are hammered hard by elk and the Game Dept. has tried all of the above and more to help with the depredation damages. Nothing worked and so the Jennings Bill was instituted to give the property owners some relief. The bill legislates that the landowner can take matters into their own hands only after the Game Dept. has made several attempts to alleviate the problem. Now you have three or four landowners whom did take matters into their own hands and as a result they killed many elk and antelope and it got very ugly in the public opinion arena. The one up in unit 15 did his slaughter after refusing to accept several good offers for more landowner tags and he refused, got pissed off and started shooting elk.

There are several of us working hard to do a revamp of the Landowner elk license system and have got many good proposals to make many needed changes to the program if we can get the Game Commission to form a state wide committee to work the program over from top to bottom. I have got about 6 or 7 pages of very needed proposed changes already at the Game Dept. and Game Commission and have added more in the last two days and am waiting on a call from Bob Osborn at the NM Game Dept. Private lands office, to return my call on a couple of questions and clarifications before submitting my revised proposal to them. The NMCOG is working hard to bring about these changes to make it more fair for everyone including the public hunters and many of the landowners who have been unfairly treated and do away with many of the small landowners whom provide little to no elk benefit.

Many complaints I hear here are lacking on the needed research or knowledge to make the statements some of you do. Do a little checking and ask some questions before blowing and going on how bad things are perceived to be.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jul-22-14 AT 09:39AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jul-22-14 AT 09:33?AM (MST)

>Couesmagnet,
>
>Landowner tags that are RO are
>the big ranches that have
>somewhat resident elk populations but
>the majority of the smaller
>ranches except up north are
>UW and last year it
>amounted to over 300,000 acres
>of private land opened up
>to public hunting and much
>of it very good elk
>hunting if you catch the
>elk on the property during
>the hunt. On my and
>most of my neighbors in
>unit 23 it is UW
>and open to the public
>and many good bulls have
>been killed on this private
>land by public elk tag
>hunters the last several years.
>
>
>As far as doing cows only
>on the landowner system it
>wouldn't amount to much compensation
>to most of the really
>deserving landowners whom provide elk
>habitat. Many are hammered hard
>by elk and the Game
>Dept. has tried all of
>the above and more to
>help with the depredation damages.
>Nothing worked and so the
>Jennings Bill was instituted to
>give the property owners some
>relief. The bill legislates that
>the landowner can take matters
>into their own hands
>only after the Game Dept.
>has made several attempts to
>alleviate the problem. Now you
>have three or four landowners
>whom did take matters into
>their own hands and as
>a result they killed many
>elk and antelope and it
>got very ugly in the
>public opinion arena. The one
>up in unit 15 did
>his slaughter after refusing to
>accept several good offers for
>more landowner tags and he
>refused, got pissed off and
>started shooting elk.
>
>There are several of us working
>hard to do a revamp
>of the Landowner elk license
>system and have got many
>good proposals to make many
>needed changes to the program
>if we can get the
>Game Commission to form a
>state wide committee to work
>the program over from top
>to bottom. I have got
>about 6 or 7 pages
>of very needed proposed changes
>already at the Game Dept.
>and Game Commission and have
>added more in the last
>two days and am waiting
>on a call from Bob
>Osborn at the NM Game
>Dept. Private lands office, to
>return my call on a
>couple of questions and clarifications
>before submitting my revised proposal
>to them. The NMCOG is
>working hard to bring about
>these changes to make it
>more fair for everyone including
>the public hunters and many
>of the landowners who have
>been unfairly treated and do
>away with many of the
>small landowners whom provide little
>to no elk benefit.
>
>Many complaints I hear here are
>lacking on the needed research
>or knowledge to make the
>statements some of you do.
>Do a little checking and
>ask some questions before blowing
>and going on how bad
>things are perceived to be.
>

Stoney, my response comes with nothing but respect, but i've done plenty of checking of my facts from contacting landowners to buy tags for the last 14 years, to hunting around,on,and near just about every ranch in the gila. I have bought tags for myself and found tags for friends for years, so it is with substantial knowledge i make my claims. You know as well as i do that there are several small ranches in the gila that are private only lo tags just the same as the big ranches, and just about as many that are private than are unit wide. Yes, a lot of the big ones are ranch only, but how big are the "big" ones. In reality the "big" ones aren't what most would call "big" anyways, and usually total out at less than 2 to 5000 acres. These elk very commonly leave these ranches which aren't usually wider than a couple miles wide in their dimensions especially in the 16 units. If you can site a ranch in 16 that is truly big enough that the elk don't leave on a weekly basis i would be very surprised indeed. How ever you want to spin it i will have a very educated response for you cause of my extensive knowledge of the gila and 100's of days spent in the gila. As for the ranchers, arizona has plenty of big ranches and we don't have one landowner tag available for sale. How can this be when new mexico gives away the farm to appease the landowners every year, and az tells the landowners to deal with it, and they do deal with it quit well. In new mexico's case, they decided to buckle years ago to the landowners complaints, and we all see what happened when they did this. Are new mexico ranchers that much poorer than az ranchers, who seem to handle the situation that was given to them, ie: cost of doing business? The land improvement thing is pretty much useless and the improvements done to the land only bring more tags to the landowner. Keep in mind that the improvements most likely benefit the landowners cows, and are done to just get another bull tag to sell. I have seen how the improvement system works there and how little you have to do to get another bull tag so we could go in depth here as a seperate argument if you wish. A couple small improvements and walla another bull tag. Keep in mind the bull that was already their before the token improvements were made is still there and not much has changed other than the net tags allocated for the token improvements just made. We could go on and on and feel free to test my knowledge of the gila in general or just the landowner system, it's your choice which one. thanks for listening to this uninformed person from arizona. Also keep in mind that if there were no landowner tags available in new mex , the ranchers would be charging trespass fees that could come close to comparing to the fees collected from selling the lo tags in the first place. Or, the landowners would be begging hunters to come on their ranches to thin out the elk doing damage to their fields. We have several ranches here in az that charge over 6000 dollars to hunt and it's kinda strange there wasn't a landowner tag involved like in N.M. Spin it how ever you want guys but deep inside you all know what the real deal is. Get rid of the diy non resident unless he owns a ranch there or has tons of money. How about get rid of the landowner system and have more tags available for residents and non residents alike, wow that was easy!!!! The landowners have their hands deep in the cookie jar of cash there, and it will be hard to take away their cookies they have snuck out of the jar for years, but residents of new mexico need to open their eyes if they really want to find the culprit stealing all the tags from the residents, and all they have to do is roll out of bed and look at the nearest 1000 acre ranch getting several tags a year to sell. just look next door at arizona if you need any pointers guys.
 
Wow! This thread has gone all over the darn place form EVILNR eating wolf steaks to me eating beavers to hunting barn cats and how the license allocation systems just suck. We are forgetting 1 piece of the pie, not every one will be happy. Ever! As a non resident the harm in my opinion to you not applying is limiting your chances at some great hunts. As an unhappy resident I encourage you to boycott and stop applying until things are exactly as you want them. Show us all how displeased you are and let your lack of application fees make the game commission take notice. As for you EVILNR, I agree New Mexico may have been to much for you. To hunt in NM it is very much like a marriage. You have to be patient, loyal, understanding, willing to work hard to make things successful, but above all that know that things will not always be perfect. As for comparing NM to a cheating girlfriend well the problem wasn't the cheating, I think it had more to do with the fact that she isn't as easy to give up her goods. As for easy girls giving up those tags, well I think you finally found your soul mate. After all she does refer her self as I- Da- Ho!
 

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