Thanks NM
- Thread starter EVILNR
- Start date
LAST EDITED ON Jul-22-14 AT 07:55PM (MST)[p]> In new mexico's case,
>they decided to buckle years
>ago to the landowners complaints,
>and we all see what
>happened when they did this.
>Are new mexico ranchers that
>much poorer than az ranchers,
>who seem to handle the
>situation that was given to
>them, ie: cost of doing
>business?
-
- Interestingly enough, a good chunk of big ranches in NM are owned by nonresidents just as Arizona.
>they decided to buckle years
>ago to the landowners complaints,
>and we all see what
>happened when they did this.
>Are new mexico ranchers that
>much poorer than az ranchers,
>who seem to handle the
>situation that was given to
>them, ie: cost of doing
>business?
-
- Interestingly enough, a good chunk of big ranches in NM are owned by nonresidents just as Arizona.
Couesmagnet,
I agree with you on many of your points and that is exactly what we are trying to do is cut out the chaff from the wheat and bring more tags back into the public draw.
As far as big ranches in 16: Elk Occupied Acreage, Farr Ranch 16E 36,369 Los Adobes,16C, 38,065 Ake Ranch 16E, 10,580 Bob Salvo, 16D, 9340 Blair Ranch 16D, 6340 Harriet Ranch, 16E, 11,840 Los Adobes,16E, 7803 Luera Ranch 16E, 7368 Bull Run Ranch 16E, 6555 ##### Welborn 16E, 7686 John Hand 16E, 6500
Some of these ranches are UW such as the huge Adobe Ranch and many are RO.
We want to tighten up those ranches also as there are some huge inequities on some of these ranches, i.e. are all of "elk occupied acres" actually providing much benefit to the elk herds.
NM has twice as many elk as AZ and a much different land pattern with probably more crop land being affected here than over there and is like comparing apples to oranges I think. I know both states pretty well and AZ is the hardest place for a resident or non resident alike to get an elk tag. Most years all of you guys set around and twiddle your thumbs, or bite the bullet and come to NM , the land of opportunity for all.
I agree with you on many of your points and that is exactly what we are trying to do is cut out the chaff from the wheat and bring more tags back into the public draw.
As far as big ranches in 16: Elk Occupied Acreage, Farr Ranch 16E 36,369 Los Adobes,16C, 38,065 Ake Ranch 16E, 10,580 Bob Salvo, 16D, 9340 Blair Ranch 16D, 6340 Harriet Ranch, 16E, 11,840 Los Adobes,16E, 7803 Luera Ranch 16E, 7368 Bull Run Ranch 16E, 6555 ##### Welborn 16E, 7686 John Hand 16E, 6500
Some of these ranches are UW such as the huge Adobe Ranch and many are RO.
We want to tighten up those ranches also as there are some huge inequities on some of these ranches, i.e. are all of "elk occupied acres" actually providing much benefit to the elk herds.
NM has twice as many elk as AZ and a much different land pattern with probably more crop land being affected here than over there and is like comparing apples to oranges I think. I know both states pretty well and AZ is the hardest place for a resident or non resident alike to get an elk tag. Most years all of you guys set around and twiddle your thumbs, or bite the bullet and come to NM , the land of opportunity for all.
Just a note to reference my above statements on the landowner permit system and such are strictly my own ideas and am working with a few individuals to put my proposals together. It is not an official position of the NMCOG as all of the individual members submit their thoughts and ideas to the Council before any official statements are made.
Whom do you think feeds a huge portion of the "State" owned elk? Should the private landowner just support all the elk so that every Joe Blow can come here and have some of the best hunting in the west and do it on the backs of the people whom are helping keep the elk herds growing and healthy? The program has enabled the elk herds to expand from 35,000 to over 90,000 in just a short 25 years, and much of the expansion has been out onto the private lands.
yeah it's hard to take that bone, or in this case a T-bone steak, away from the dog without a fight. i don't see much change though anytime soon since the commission is loaded heavy with these big dogs. i would rather they just say thank you instead of trying to justify the entitlement.
Please explain what you mean by "justifying" the entitlement.
Not much to justify when the private landowners provide habitat for our growing elk herds.
To get technical you can call the resident hunters entitled to a huge degree. They get their licenses cheaper and therefore the non-resident hunter is paying way more than their share, all the while the big share of the elk habitat is on private and Federal lands, not on state lands with the "state's wildlife".
I personally think NM has the best of the best in hunting opportunity and diversity of species that anyone can hunt and on a much more regular basis than say AZ, by a huge, huge margin and a decent chance to get a trophy without all the fuss and cumulated dollars of waiting 10-22 years for preference points in AZ.
Not much to justify when the private landowners provide habitat for our growing elk herds.
To get technical you can call the resident hunters entitled to a huge degree. They get their licenses cheaper and therefore the non-resident hunter is paying way more than their share, all the while the big share of the elk habitat is on private and Federal lands, not on state lands with the "state's wildlife".
I personally think NM has the best of the best in hunting opportunity and diversity of species that anyone can hunt and on a much more regular basis than say AZ, by a huge, huge margin and a decent chance to get a trophy without all the fuss and cumulated dollars of waiting 10-22 years for preference points in AZ.
smarba
Active Member
- Messages
- 583
I believe the sense of "entitlement" stems from the fact that in numerous/majority/all other states animals eat rancher's crops and they aren't compensated with hunting tags, yet somehow manage to survive.
Whether it's by charging trespass fee, etc.
While I appreciate that SOME ranchers take pride in helping wildlife, the truth of the matter is that most of the time when cattle are through crapping all over public land and denuding the landscape and are then rounded up, the water wells/windmills are TURNED OFF and no longer help any wildlife until the cattle are put back. In general I don't think it's a net improvement for wildlife on public.
With regards to game animals on private land, trespass fees would accomplish the same thing and solve it.
Again, I'm generalizing, but when we see landowners ONLY want bull tags (most cow tags go unused), it is apparent that they actually like game on their land because it has become an income source for them. Same thing with landowners refusing to have fences put around their crops to reduce the damage - they WANT elk and the $$ they can get from tags due to crop damage.
Do LOs have to report how much they sell tags for? pay taxes on them?
I suspect in SOME cases, raising elk has become more of an income source than raising hay or cattle was in the first place.
The LO system was only put in place, what 20-years ago? Obviously ranchers made a living before they were able to get elk tags...
I was out doing some scouting last weekend on BLM and checking out some tanks (windmills/solar/metal stock tanks). Cattle had been pulled off, and the tanks were full, but they were surrounded with 6"x6" cattle panel fencing that would not allow any big game animals to go under to drink and only mature deer (not fawns) would have been able to jump over to drink. Why?!
These are the kind of inconsistencies that drive us crazy.
Working TOGETHER is the only way to improve the overall situation, though.
Whether it's by charging trespass fee, etc.
While I appreciate that SOME ranchers take pride in helping wildlife, the truth of the matter is that most of the time when cattle are through crapping all over public land and denuding the landscape and are then rounded up, the water wells/windmills are TURNED OFF and no longer help any wildlife until the cattle are put back. In general I don't think it's a net improvement for wildlife on public.
With regards to game animals on private land, trespass fees would accomplish the same thing and solve it.
Again, I'm generalizing, but when we see landowners ONLY want bull tags (most cow tags go unused), it is apparent that they actually like game on their land because it has become an income source for them. Same thing with landowners refusing to have fences put around their crops to reduce the damage - they WANT elk and the $$ they can get from tags due to crop damage.
Do LOs have to report how much they sell tags for? pay taxes on them?
I suspect in SOME cases, raising elk has become more of an income source than raising hay or cattle was in the first place.
The LO system was only put in place, what 20-years ago? Obviously ranchers made a living before they were able to get elk tags...
I was out doing some scouting last weekend on BLM and checking out some tanks (windmills/solar/metal stock tanks). Cattle had been pulled off, and the tanks were full, but they were surrounded with 6"x6" cattle panel fencing that would not allow any big game animals to go under to drink and only mature deer (not fawns) would have been able to jump over to drink. Why?!
These are the kind of inconsistencies that drive us crazy.
Working TOGETHER is the only way to improve the overall situation, though.
couesmagnet
Active Member
- Messages
- 435
LAST EDITED ON Jul-28-14 AT 06:14PM (MST)[p]The money generated by the sale of the lo tags should be put towards high fences then if the elk are such a problem , not in the ranchers pocket. If new mexico has more elk than az, it's only cause new mex has more elk units/habitat in the state over all. I seriously doubt new mexico has a higher elk density than az unit for unit. Saying new mexico has more elk than az is just another spin on this debate, and density is what really matters not the over all amount of elk habitat. The landowner tags are just a handout in my opinion. Ranchers have had a 100 years to adapt to elk herd densities, and the elk have just as much right to be there as the cattle, except in new mexico's case. The ranchers are laughing all the way to the bank that the residents there bought into the whole lo tag argument in the first place. If you got rid of the lo tags it would free up at least 15 percent, and in some cases up to 20 percent more tags for non res and res alike. Let the ranchers really on the hunters to thin the elk out, and i would bet that any of the ranchers that are having elk problems will beg hunters to come on their ranches to handle the problem. I think the lo tags actually reduce the amount of huntable land to non landowners cause they go to closed tags instead of unit wide if there were no lo tags. Enough said, nothings going to change over there until the diy non resident is shoved out and the residents turn their misguided anger at their own landowners who have totally tricked the system. Lo tags = entitlement/welfare for the rich. If the ranchers there need lo tags to survive then they shouldn't be ranching in the first place. What about ranches owned by non hunters who run cattle? They don't even allow one elk to be shot on their land ever, and they seem to be doing ok? I understand the ranchers have problems with the elk, and a few tags could be rationalized without the need for spin, but ranches in 15, 13, and some of the 16's are way way way to high right now.
Our elk herds only got restarted in the mid to late 60's and it took them until the late 80's to expand out of the upper Gila into all of the hereto fore farm, ranch and private lands that had no elk for well over 100 years. These people had investment backed expectations from the very get go that did not include elk.
I do agree with you however that many of the real big ranches get rewarded way too much. We are working on that angle to to go back and look at some of these ranches whom probably don't support the amount of elk they are presently given credit for. They just happen to have a lot of acres that under the present formula isn't fair or at least I don't think so.
We are not talking elk densities although we (NM) have some huge elk densities with maybe not as good as bull to cow ratios as AZ but NM lets more licenses for twice as many elk and therefore the opportunity is much greater to hunt elk in NM than AZ.
We have a good and unique system although it needs some revamp to make it more fair and equitable for all. NM has great elk hunting opportunity and as the rise in trophy hunters wanting the best trophy units so does the angst amongst the ones whom can't draw a trophy bull unit very often.
I do agree with you however that many of the real big ranches get rewarded way too much. We are working on that angle to to go back and look at some of these ranches whom probably don't support the amount of elk they are presently given credit for. They just happen to have a lot of acres that under the present formula isn't fair or at least I don't think so.
We are not talking elk densities although we (NM) have some huge elk densities with maybe not as good as bull to cow ratios as AZ but NM lets more licenses for twice as many elk and therefore the opportunity is much greater to hunt elk in NM than AZ.
We have a good and unique system although it needs some revamp to make it more fair and equitable for all. NM has great elk hunting opportunity and as the rise in trophy hunters wanting the best trophy units so does the angst amongst the ones whom can't draw a trophy bull unit very often.
couesmagnet
Active Member
- Messages
- 435
Thanks for the spirited debate stoney. I've read several of your posts on other subjects, and have enjoyed several of your responses . I love the gila in new mexico just to be clear, and i just hope the diy guy gets a little less demonized over there and the residents don't just focus on them and not let the real culprits(landowners) get away unscathed in the whole witch hunt over there.
Coues,
I agree that the DIY guys need equal chances at obtaining elk licenses here and in time I think the pendulum will swing back to a more fair system. The legislative processes required to make changes are very onerous and gut wrenching to say the least. It's all about trade offs for most of the legislators and so nothing ever gets done like it should.
I agree that the DIY guys need equal chances at obtaining elk licenses here and in time I think the pendulum will swing back to a more fair system. The legislative processes required to make changes are very onerous and gut wrenching to say the least. It's all about trade offs for most of the legislators and so nothing ever gets done like it should.
This is my personal opinion. The statement above regarding big ranches get rewarded to much is very interesting. I know of several big ranches that do not use all the authorizations issued based on the formula. I for one an glad they don't because if they did, there would be big problems with herd density in many units. Please look at unit 9 carefully. The formula provides for many to be issued to Floyd Lee, L Bar, Lobo.....and I know they don't hunt all issued. If they did the unit numbers would be devasted. The public lands are whored out in 9 and the problem is surfacing big time. Big ranches manage numbers very well. Not sure how they are being rewarded by the department.
Hello Marc-These are pics taken 2 weeks ago in the destroyed unit 9.
http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos2/685lobo-late-july-2014-021.jpg
http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos2/7298lobo-late-july-2014-031.jpg
http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos2/685lobo-late-july-2014-021.jpg
http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos2/7298lobo-late-july-2014-031.jpg
Ropinfool-Yes it is on private and yes, I 100% agree that to many cow tags issued by the department on the public side in 9 has greatly impacted the factory. If Lee's, Lobo, and L-Bar hunted their cow tags like they issued them......go figure.
In my personal opinion, anyone that believes the unused authorizations issued to larger ranches should go back into the public draw should carefully consider the ramifications and impacts to all aspects of land and wildlife resources in doing so. In unit 9's case, and again in my opinion, the mere fact the larger ranches are not harvesting all their respective authorized bull and cow tags will allow for a faster recovery and eventually provide the public side more wildlife resource hunting opportunity. However, the brakes have to be applied on both sides for that to work.
Jim
In my personal opinion, anyone that believes the unused authorizations issued to larger ranches should go back into the public draw should carefully consider the ramifications and impacts to all aspects of land and wildlife resources in doing so. In unit 9's case, and again in my opinion, the mere fact the larger ranches are not harvesting all their respective authorized bull and cow tags will allow for a faster recovery and eventually provide the public side more wildlife resource hunting opportunity. However, the brakes have to be applied on both sides for that to work.
Jim
I used to hunt there every year for either turkey or elk. I hunted unit 10. The big difference between AZ and NM is that we have very little private land sprinkled around and limited areas of the state with quality habitat. That said we never allowed any private tags and it was a NM creep that sued us to get that done. I saw nothing growing on the private land where I hunted and no real reason to limit elk damage. I did run into several outfitters for the private ranch who tried to tell me they had rights to public land and tried to run me out. I climbed a hill behind that ranch and shot a 360 bull with my muzzleloader and it wasn't ten minutes before the outfitter and his clients showed up wondering how the hell I got up there. I climbed.
I talked to your G&F back when the Taulman deal was on and she told me very few cow tags for LO ever get punched. Kind of proof that it is not about damage and all about money. I am too old to deal with your state any longer but I do hope you DIY hunters can get organized and get the LO tag deal stopped completely. It will be important to the future of bringing young hunters up that won't have much money. I am good with 90%/10% split and no LO tags. Good luck with that fight.
I talked to your G&F back when the Taulman deal was on and she told me very few cow tags for LO ever get punched. Kind of proof that it is not about damage and all about money. I am too old to deal with your state any longer but I do hope you DIY hunters can get organized and get the LO tag deal stopped completely. It will be important to the future of bringing young hunters up that won't have much money. I am good with 90%/10% split and no LO tags. Good luck with that fight.
One comment that keeps coming up is that by making it harder for nonresidents to draw, somehow New Mexico's hunting will be ruined. If AZ is an example, that is backwards. AZ is be many measures the most restrictive state in the west for nonresidents. Up to 10%. No outfitter tags. No landowner tags. Zero of either. AZ has some of the best hunting in the west. Probably, on average THE best big game hunting. The shrewdest thing AZ does is make nonresident pay $160 for a general hunting license just to apply. Plus $15 per species. And since they don't have a chicknass commission like we do in NM, they keep the money if NR doesn't draw. The give the smallest opportunity to NR, but raise huge money from NR. Talk about having your cake and eating it too! NM needs to double or triple the game hunting license fee for NR (and R for that matter) and make it non refundable. Then you would really have something to ##### about.
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