Significant restrictions are being proposed in 2024 Novembers RAC's

Vanilla said:
I will always defend the “non loss” of any tags. You see, I’m an opportunist. Something you used to claim you were too! I think deep down inside you realize how silly your take is on this. In time, you will admit you swung and missed here. Unfortunately, it will be too late. We’ll already be way too far down the path to come back.

I like seeing people get to hunt. It makes me happy to see people out doing this. Non loss of tags is a great thing!!! But once it gets down to 3800, don’t come crying to me!
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Opportunists don't get emotionally attached to a scope. Or even a weapon.

Deep down?

Your argument is no different. than the dudes that cried about trail cams, then muzzy scopes.

You're just try to cloak it with some conspiracy theory about people you've still yet to name.


Sorry man, I've heard chicken little one to many times.

I'm going swan hunting tomorrow. Amazing, because I listened to dudes tell me, waterfowling would end if we couldn't shoot lead. Skies been falling an awful long time
 
Personally, I'm of the opinion that we need to find a way to increase age classes of bucks on many of our units, increase game populations especially after winter 2022-2023, increase opportunity when we can, and make sure every 12-17 year old has a tag every year. If that means shorter seasons, youth only seasons, weapon restrictions, APR, or anything else that makes sense to a prudent person sign me up.

Nothing makes me more frustrated than having kids on the bench. My daughter loved hunting her first year, was on the bench in 2024, and has lost most of her interest in hunting because she didn't get to go this year. I should have taken her out of state to keep that spark alive. I'll have another first time hunter in 2025.

I hate seeing adults smoke baby bucks. Maybe we should require an image to be uploaded with the harvest reporting and fine adults $100 for shooting 2pts and spikes.

I think that anyone who hits a deer with a car should have to pay $100 into a predator control account for mitigation and habitat work for failure to exercise due care.

I'm opposed to increasing any fees until we see bigger better herds and hunter satisfaction.
 
If it’s that bad rotate some units off/closed for 1 year then go to another unit do the same thing. Do a study to see where we’re at. Issue tags to those who just want to harvest a small buck the same for who wants to harvest a 4 point only. All these ideas is just making my head spin. Just shut the season down if it’s that bad just do it.
 
Buck hunting is not a limiting factor for Utah’s deer herds. It simply is not. Until it is, ending hunting in any unit is insane.

The ONLY goal of these proposals is to make it easier for people to find big bucks. Hard stop. Nothing further.

Some measure their success as a hunter in inches, some don’t. We have plenty of units and hunts people can apply for to measure success in inches if they want. But as is the nature of these folks, they will always want more. No matter how much they’re given, they will demand more. They will never be satisfied.

And they will be the nail in the coffin for hunting as we know it in Utah.
 
I would love to get together and just talk about these issues in person. I’m sure there some good ideas that we could come up with. Any way I get what you’re saying Vanilla.
 
I like This:

The Big Bucks Are Still There,They're Just Harder To Find!

We Need To Get The 3 OPPOR-F'N-TUNISTS Units Going!

Give Each One Of Them OPPORTUNISTS 5 Tags annually!

And Let Them FRICK Them Units Up!

When They Are Destroyed!

Keep Sending Them Their 5 F'N Tags!

(((They Don't Want Their Tags Cut,So Don't Cut Them!)))

But After Their Units Are FRICKED Up They Can't Change To Other Units!

I Can See How Long These Units Would Last!

There Wouldn't Be A F'N Deer Left After Year Two!

They Can't Or Won't Look In To The Future As Far As Tomorrow Morning!

But By GAWD They'll Have Their COVETED Tags!
 
Vanilla said:
Buck hunting is not a limiting factor for Utah’s deer herds. It simply is not. Until it is, ending hunting in any unit is insane.

The ONLY goal of these proposals is to make it easier for people to find big bucks. Hard stop. Nothing further.

Some measure their success as a hunter in inches, some don’t. We have plenty of units and hunts people can apply for to measure success in inches if they want. But as is the nature of these folks, they will always want more. No matter how much they’re given, they will demand more. They will never be satisfied.

And they will be the nail in the coffin for hunting as we know it in Utah.
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*To find bucks*



Yes. To find bigger bucks.

You're starting to sound like Tri.

A tag IS NOT a guaranteed kill. There are high fence units if that's your deal.

Not a single tag is being cut.

If there was, I'd join you.

If you're actually worried, pick up a bow.

But nowhere is a guarantee of hunting with the 20x a deal. ALW. Not ASR(any scoped rifle)
 
If y'all really want to increase killing opportunity without making a significant impact on herd numbers, you should look into fawn only hunts. Non additive mortality is a beautiful thing, just like shooting fawns/calves is a beautiful thing.
 
Vanilla said:
Buck hunting is not a limiting factor for Utah’s deer herds. It simply is not.
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If you truly believe this, that would mean you would support unlimited resident tags. It’s an interesting idea.

That would mean there is no reason to manage harvest by unit. It would mean the LL holders hold no advantage over the next guy. It would mean not much reason to continue the DH program.

It would also mean everyone could get a tag every year instead of every third, fourth or fifth year. I could almost get behind it.

Am I understanding you correctly? Are my assumptions correct?
 
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hossblur said:
*To find bucks*



Yes. To find bigger bucks.

You're starting to sound like Tri.

A tag IS NOT a guaranteed kill. There are high fence units if that's your deal.

Not a single tag is being cut.

If there was, I'd join you.

If you're actually worried, pick up a bow.

But nowhere is a guarantee of hunting with the 20x a deal. ALW. Not ASR(any scoped rifle)
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Once again, none of that has anything to do with what I said. Not even tangentially. You’re completely lost on this one, my friend, and totally reaching now.

I guess you want tag cuts now too if you’re arguing against what I posted that you quoted. My oh my, how the times change, huh bessy?
 
Vanilla said:
Once again, none of that has anything to do with what I said. Not even tangentially. You’re completely lost on this one, my friend, and totally reaching now.

I guess you want tag cuts now too if you’re arguing against what I posted that you quoted. My oh my, how the times change, huh bessy?
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You've yet to say anything other than some conspiracy about "they", without explaining who "they" is.


We all made choices. Nowhere in any reg is there mention of guaranteed weapon choice. No one made you, or your brothers buy guns incapable of being modified. That was your choice. Just as it will be your choice as to whether or not you hunt one of these units, or one of the dozens of others that don't have the reg.

I hunted open sight muzzy this year. Hunted the same places, same days as always. The open sights, added a challenge that wasn't there years prior. Bucks survived, that probably wouldn't have years prior. Now, if the same happens with rifles, those bucks will make it another year.

You aren't guaranteed a deer because you have a tag. That's the Tri management concept. You are only given the oppurtunity to pursue. If not having your scope makes you not hunt, then you weren't much of a hunter anyway, and there are folks who otherwise would sit home, who don't have such silly attachments that will take your place. The whining about keeping tech, only shows how much tech has infiltrated.

Us opportunists will take a tag. Ill bet you wouldn't give up that guaranteed tag every year, if it meant keeping your scope.
 
OK Nilly!

It's Past Time To Hear Your Statewide Big Game Proposal!

Remember When You Wanted Me To Post Mine & I Did?

The Deal Was That You'd Post Yours As Well!

Let's Hear It!

Must Be A DOOSEY If It Takes This Long To Write It Up!

But I'm/We are Willing To Review It!
 
hossblur said:
You've yet to say anything other than some conspiracy about "they", without explaining who "they" is.


We all made choices. Nowhere in any reg is there mention of guaranteed weapon choice. No one made you, or your brothers buy guns incapable of being modified. That was your choice. Just as it will be your choice as to whether or not you hunt one of these units, or one of the dozens of others that don't have the reg.

I hunted open sight muzzy this year. Hunted the same places, same days as always. The open sights, added a challenge that wasn't there years prior. Bucks survived, that probably wouldn't have years prior. Now, if the same happens with rifles, those bucks will make it another year.

You aren't guaranteed a deer because you have a tag. That's the Tri management concept. You are only given the oppurtunity to pursue. If not having your scope makes you not hunt, then you weren't much of a hunter anyway, and there are folks who otherwise would sit home, who don't have such silly attachments that will take your place. The whining about keeping tech, only shows how much tech has infiltrated.

Us opportunists will take a tag. Ill bet you wouldn't give up that guaranteed tag every year, if it meant keeping your scope.
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You still think this is about me, huh?

Haven’t hunted the Cache since they stupidly went with Option 2. Never said all of those rifles were incapable of being modified. And have never once claimed I was guaranteed an animal. In fact, you KNOW my feelings are the exact opposite. So now that you’re arguing things you and I both know 100% that you know better, what does that leave all of us to conclude about your position?

Hossy, you’ve done lost your mind here. It’s all good. Everyone could tell you lost the firm ground you were standing on a week ago.
 
You started with a story about a pre 64 win, that a dude couldn't hunt with as it wouldn't fit the regs. That dude, was hunting with a gun, he modified as it came with sights to start with.

Then you complained that there would be pressure "downstream". Funny, as you, by your own admission, created that downstream pressure moving from the cache.

Then, you claimed their was a conspiracy to make the Pine Valley an LE, of course with zero evidence.

You complained" Between my brothers and I, I’m guessing we own 15+ rifles. Not a single one would be a lawful firearm in the Cache unit.", but now say you didn't say they couldn't be modified.

You've talked about the secret, behind closed doors push by "they" to cut tags via limiting weapons and APR, which, is pretty odd, considering we manage buck:doe, and both would most likely lead to more bucks:doe following the hunts.

We are 6 pages into this, and I'm still trying to get who "they" are.

I'm also still trying to see where a tag cut is mentioned.

So let's start with "they".

How about a name, that doesn't seem too hard.
 
It’s like a game of chess on here. Thing keep changing like more restrictions on hunters less opportunities and so on. I Want to know how bad is it and what’s does the data say? Non of this mumble jumble stuff straight up. I think if we had this information you’ll find a lot of us would probably are on the same page.
 
I hereby propose the following, effective immediately:

Resident buck tags will be OTC and unlimited. Little 12 year old Susie and Timmy can’t wait until they are 16. Fine, they get a tag. Grandpa Seth gets a tag. No problem. More importantly the COMMON MAN gets a tag every year. You only get one and choose your weapon and season. Old family traditions at deer camp become a possibility again.

The LE program remains unchanged.

The DH program gets phased out in two years. Enjoy it while you can.

LL licenses become irrelevant. Don’t complain, you already got your money’s worth and a lot more.

Arrive at your hunting campground and it’s too crowded, tough, go somewhere else. Go to your next spot and you don’t like the deer numbers or buck to doe ratio, too bad go somewhere else.

You have the whole state excluding LE units to hunt.

No need to manage by unit because if it gets bad, people quit hunting it.

If people don’t like this system they give up hunting altogether. There are plenty more to take their place.
 
Do You Remember When We Went To 30 Some Odd General Units That Was Gonna Fix Everything?

Somehow,Somewhere I Missed All The Fixes They Were Gonna Create!

They Claimed They Could & Would Manage The New Units For The Good!

I Must Have Missed All The GOOD They Created!


Betterluckythangood said:
I hereby propose the following, effective immediately:

Resident buck tags will be OTC and unlimited. Little 12 year old Susie and Timmy can’t wait until they are 16. Fine, they get a tag. Grandpa Seth gets a tag. No problem. More importantly the COMMON MAN gets a tag every year. You only get one and choose your weapon and season. Old family traditions at deer camp become a possibility again.

The LE program remains unchanged.

The DH program gets phased out in two years. Enjoy it while you can.

LL licenses become irrelevant. Don’t complain, you already got your money’s worth and a lot more.

Arrive at your hunting campground and it’s too crowded, tough, go somewhere else. Go to your next spot and you don’t like the deer numbers or buck to doe ratio, too bad go somewhere else.

You have the whole state excluding LE units to hunt.

No need to manage by unit because if it gets bad, people quit hunting it.

If people don’t like this system they give up hunting altogether. There are plenty more to take their place.
Click to expand...
 
Betterluckythangood said:
I hereby propose the following, effective immediately:

Resident buck tags will be OTC and unlimited. Little 12 year old Susie and Timmy can’t wait until they are 16. Fine, they get a tag. Grandpa Seth gets a tag. No problem. More importantly the COMMON MAN gets a tag every year. You only get one and choose your weapon and season. Old family traditions at deer camp become a possibility again.

The LE program remains unchanged.

The DH program gets phased out in two years. Enjoy it while you can.

LL licenses become irrelevant. Don’t complain, you already got your money’s worth and a lot more.

Arrive at your hunting campground and it’s too crowded, tough, go somewhere else. Go to your next spot and you don’t like the deer numbers or buck to doe ratio, too bad go somewhere else.

You have the whole state excluding LE units to hunt.

No need to manage by unit because if it gets bad, people quit hunting it.

If people don’t like this system they give up hunting altogether. There are plenty more to take their place.
Click to expand...
Sounds somewhat similar to Wyoming. Population dynamics are quite a bit different though.

What if you switched the start date of general season alw elk with general season any legal weapon deer? This moves the hunt for both species further away from their post and pre-rut when they are more susceptible. And for deer specifically, early weather definitely leads to an increase in success rates. If it did reduce success rates, you could create more opportunity instead of cutting tags.

Just throwing this out for other opinions, haven’t really thought deeply about it.
 
Furthermore:

Multi season tags. Gone.

They are nonsense to begin with.

Hams hunts. Gone. That is just someone getting too creative.

If you want to give some bucks a better chance to get older, limit scope power to 9x. So sorry if you have to get within 400 or 500 yards or so. Learn about animal behavior and learn to hunt and not just shoot. Save your “weapon love” for the range. Yes, it is enforceable.
 
I think it’s a waste of time just limit tags sales would do more to allow more deer to survive. Sure it’s going to get some hunters mad if they can’t hunt but if our deer herds are that bad most will get on board…just my thoughts.
 
hossblur said:
You started with a story about a pre 64 win, that a dude couldn't hunt with as it wouldn't fit the regs. That dude, was hunting with a gun, he modified as it came with sights to start with.
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Actually, it was modified. Unfortunately! Grandpa put a muzzle brake on it back in the 70s hoping grandma would shoot it. She never did a single time. But it became mine. Sure, I could take it to a gunsmith and have the necessary changes made, but that is my whole point that seems to keep going completely over your head.
hossblur said:
Then you complained that there would be pressure "downstream". Funny, as you, by your own admission, created that downstream pressure moving from the cache.
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Now you’re just making stuff up. But when you’ve got no real stance or solid argument, why not?

I did hunt what is now the Cache when it was just the northern region. Remember when they went with Option 2 because it was going to help them manage better and increase opportunity? How’s that go for you, Hossy?

Once they did Option 2 to save the mule deer and give hunters more opportunity, I’ve had tags on the Tintic, Wasatch West, Wasatch Current Creek (now East?), Pine Valley, and Manti. Maybe I’m forgetting something? But never Cache.

But maybe citing Option 2 to save mule deer and increase hunter opportunity helps to clearly begin why I’m skeptical on these current proposals that you’ve taken hook, line, and sinker apparently. More on that later.

But is your position this won’t push folks off these test units onto other units? And you don’t think that will impact others? If so, you’re smoking crack man!

hossblur said:
Then, you claimed their was a conspiracy to make the Pine Valley an LE, of course with zero evidence.
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No, I didn’t claim that. Scroll back up and try again. If you do so, you might see people actually advocating for that VERY THING in this thread! It’s not a conspiracy to suggest people will go for that in 6 years when people have advocated for that on this very forum currently! This is absolutely a step in that direction. I have no idea if it will happen, but I’ll go double or nothing on all that beer you owe me that there will be public calls for both tag cuts on the Pine Valley and turning it LE in the next 6 years.

hossblur said:
You complained" Between my brothers and I, I’m guessing we own 15+ rifles. Not a single one would be a lawful firearm in the Cache unit.", but now say you didn't say they couldn't be modified.
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Correct. Saying not one of those rifles would be a legal rifle under the proposal for Cache is not the same thing as saying none can be modified. What rifle can’t be modified if you have enough money? That is just silly Hoss. Don’t be silly.


hossblur said:
You've talked about the secret, behind closed doors push by "they" to cut tags via limiting weapons and APR, which, is pretty odd, considering we manage buck:doe, and both would most likely lead to more bucks:doe following the hunts.
Click to expand...

Nearly every unit in the state is over the buck to doe ratio in the old management plan. Tell me how the WB has given out so many more tags because of that over the last 10 years. Hoss, I have actual events and history to point to on this and you’re acting like I’m some lunatic Trumper denying an election here. Tell me about all these tag increases we’ve seen the last 5 years with Buck to Dow ratios being higher than the plan nearly state wide and I’ll listen to you be sarcastic on this specific topic.

hossblur said:
We are 6 pages into this, and I'm still trying to get who "they" are.

…

So let's start with "they".

How about a name, that doesn't seem too hard.
Click to expand...

Carl Albrecht. Now go do your own research. (There may be some people that actually know reading this and that ought to make their butts pucker a bit…stay tuned!)


hossblur said:
I'm also still trying to see where a tag cut is mentioned.
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Mentioned? Ha! Just go look at the tag numbers the last 5 years. Did they “mention” that in the previous mule deer plan? (Hint, since you’re struggling mightily these days, the answer is “no.”)

hossblur said:
So let's start with "they".

How about a name, that doesn't seem too hard.
Click to expand...

Let’s go back to this one. Go over all these proposals. You have to pay attention, but it’s there. There seems to be lots of cuts happening to certain types of hunters, but if you’re savvy, you can see there is some expansion for one group. Not only in weaponry, but season dates, etc. Not shocking. There is a lot of placating going on, year by year, little by little.
 
elkassassin said:
Do You Remember When We Went To 30 Some Odd General Units That Was Gonna Fix Everything?

Somehow,Somewhere I Missed All The Fixes They Were Gonna Create!

They Claimed They Could & Would Manage The New Units For The Good!

I Must Have Missed All The GOOD They Created!
Click to expand...

When you come to SLC in Feb, maybe bring that up.
 
6 pages deep to get Carl Albrecht?

What's funny, is you look at the committees he sits on that have sway in wildlife, and you somehow think that dipshit holds power.

Hint: the rep from Hooper, actually does hold power, and he, owns a CWMU that would lose $$$ with weapon restrictions.
As would Doyle, WLH, Heaton, the State of Utah, Antelope Island, etc.

If you doubt that, simply check the hash tags on the IG pics, and which gun and scope companies they are.

As to your pre 64.

A set of Lyman folders will cost you $29.

I hope you can swing that.

My muzzy sights cost me $35. I nearly quit hunting over that, so I feel your pain.

I have to choose my unit for 3 years at a time, I'm fine extending that to 5. But that needs to apply to you as well, you seem to have little concern on your downstream pressure via your LL or unit jumping, it's disingenuous to now claim you're concerned.


In 46 years, I've hunted 2 units. Nebo, and Manti. And only because main street in Manti is the boundary between the two. If it goes long bows, spears or flat rocks, I'll be there.
 
hossblur said:
Those same people have been calling for tag cuts since 1990.
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Them, and many others. And they’ve been really successful thus far!

Which is why you continuing to criticize my skepticism about this is a real head scratcher. It’s not like I’ve made this crap up out of thin air.

Sorry you don’t see you’re being used as a tool to drive the agenda. But you are. And in 6 years, I’ll still be around. We can revisit this then.
 
I hunt near my cabin in SW Colorado. The hunting had gone down hill and several years ago they closed quite a few 4 wheeler/motorized trails.

That restricted the hunting ability of some hunters and probably lowered the harvest. But hunting quality has improved. Different kind of “new restrictions” but doubt many here would be against these changes. It did piss off some locals though. It certainly reduced opportunity for some hunters who have hunted there their whole life, and def reduced it for those with disabilities or age related restrictions without lowering the number of tags sold….
 
The success rate for harvesting a deer in Utah in 2023 was 22%. The Utah Big Game Annual Report provides information on the total deer harvest by management unit, including the number of hunters afield, the mean days hunted, and the success rate.

I wander what it will be with mandatory reporting now that it’s in place?
 
quest said:
I wander what it will be with mandatory reporting now that it’s in place?
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I am one that has advocated for many years to go to mandatory harvest reports for all big game in Utah. That said, I do not believe it's going to change the overall data all that much. I'm still in favor of it, but I think we will see a lot of similarities. I could be wrong in that prediction, however.
 
I don’t how putting on more weapon restriction is helping opportunity? How low does the success rate have to be so we can grow more deer it almost seems they just want us to stop hunting? Your thoughts?
 
quest said:
I don’t how putting on more weapon restriction is helping opportunity? How low does the success rate have to be so we can grow more deer it almost seems they just want us to stop hunting? Your thoughts?
Click to expand...

I agree 100% that this is not about more opportunity for the average joe, and that is a smoke screen for the real goals and motivation here.
 
quest said:
I don’t how putting on more weapon restriction is helping opportunity? How low does the success rate have to be so we can grow more deer it almost seems they just want us to stop hunting? Your thoughts?
Click to expand...
Because weapon restrictions aren't meant to grow the herd numbers, that's an entirely different avenue.
 
slamdunk said:
Because weapon restrictions aren't meant to grow the herd numbers, that's an entirely different avenue.
Click to expand...

Agreed. So let's go down those entirely different avenues! That is how you increase opportunity.

Let's all just admit these proposals are about trophy hunting and move on.
 
Vanilla said:
Them, and many others. And they’ve been really successful thus far!

Which is why you continuing to criticize my skepticism about this is a real head scratcher. It’s not like I’ve made this crap up out of thin air.

Sorry you don’t see you’re being used as a tool to drive the agenda. But you are. And in 6 years, I’ll still be around. We can revisit this then.
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My man.

You LITERALLY hand those people your money. Those same people use the "overwhelming success" of the expo, and the money brought in, to lobby on their behalf, and their desires.

Here's an idea.

DONT.

Don't come in a forum, talk all about how your standing up against "they", then scurry over to their party and fork over your cash to reinforce their power.

Don't.

They have power, be ause they have money.

YOUR MONEY.

They don't have mine. I'm not financing their lobbying, then talking a big game about standing up to them.

No one is interested in your(or anyone else) bitching about the powers that be in Utah wildlife management if YOU FINANCE IT.

It's like folks bitching about drug dealers while buying drugs.
 
quest said:
I don’t how putting on more weapon restriction is helping opportunity? How low does the success rate have to be so we can grow more deer it almost seems they just want us to stop hunting? Your thoughts?
Click to expand...

It doesn't.

It also doesn't take it.

If deer count is same, tags will be as well.

There won't be an adjustment on counts because of access to a scope.

And in a buck:doe management state, more bucks on the landscape in November, could mean more tags.
 
So now that I've shown how ridiculous your claims have been here and you've got nothing, we are on to attacking me about the hunt expo? Dang hossy, you've got a chip on your shoulder for some reason. Did I kick your dog without knowing?

Fact: I've never paid to attend the expo a single time. Ever.
 
hossblur said:
And in a buck:doe management state, more bucks on the landscape in November, could mean more tags.
Click to expand...
Really? How has that worked out the last 5 years? Hoss, we have history to draw on here! Wake the frick up.

Also, I'm glad you amended your other post Hossy, but good thing I had it before you did so.

"The same ALW tag last year will be there this year." You sure about that? What has the WB done the last 5 years to make you believe this?
 
Vanilla said:
Agreed. So let's go down those entirely different avenues! That is how you increase opportunity.

Let's all just admit these proposals are about trophy hunting and move on.
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I agree with most this, except for questioning "moving down the other avenues".

No one on this entire site cares to dig into the WRI link which I have posted countless times, or follow any of the multitude of collaring programs posted on various social media platforms.

I've posted our local habitat projects over the years and can count on one hand in a decade how much interest there has been from this site, yet people crying about DH hours needed.

All there is on here is hatred for special interest groups and hatred for the DNR.

I have thought long and hard about asking @Founder to create me "conservation" forum where i can post dozens of various projects from every conservation entity there is, but it's not worth my time arguing all the negativity about things that ARE being done.
 
Vanilla said:
I agree 100% that this is not about more opportunity for the average joe, and that is a smoke screen for the real goals and motivation here.
Click to expand...

Vanilla said:
So now that I've shown how ridiculous your claims have been here and you've got nothing, we are on to attacking me about the hunt expo? Dang hossy, you've got a chip on your shoulder for some reason. Did I kick your dog without knowing?

Fact: I've never paid to attend the expo a single time. Ever.
Click to expand...

You finance the very people you now claim to oppose. When $fw rolls into WB meetings with those 4x8' checks, to "donate" to DWR, THATS YOUR MONEY. Ain't mine, ain't Mr Shane's.

When The Don invoices for his lobbying efforts for $fw, he is paid, with your money.

The dog that got kicked by the hypocrisy of bitching about "they", then showing up in Feb to hand them cash(follow the money, remember?) Died. It's pup, died. We are now on the 3rd generation of kicked dogs, and it's always the same bullshit excuse as to why you (and others)finance the people you supposedly oppose.

Remember the year no one showed up to attend?

Attendance is for the trade show.

The money for the lobbyists and special interest groups, comes from your lotto.
The campaign donations to guys like Albrecht come from the same deep pockets that are lobbied for via $fw.


You cannot try and separate the 2.

Like I said, you can't buy drugs from the cartels, then ***** about the cartels.
 
Vanilla said:
Really? How has that worked out the last 5 years? Hoss, we have history to draw on here! Wake the frick up.

Also, I'm glad you amended your other post Hossy, but good thing I had it before you did so.

"The same ALW tag last year will be there this year." You sure about that? What has the WB done the last 5 years to make you believe this?
Click to expand...

I had to because I knew you'd go on a tangent, just like you did.

The last 5 years?

I believe, the Pine Valley had tags added last year?
 
You are king of moving the goal posts in this thread. And now the expo is the boogie man. Whatever. Let's get back to how these proposals are going to give you such great hunting opportunities in the future.

I'm not intersted in a never ending moving the goal posts circle jerk. I've answered every question you've asked. But I'm not going to just keep swatting at phantom arguments. Say something worth addressing, and I'll do that.
 
quest said:
Are you guys talking about the Expo?
Click to expand...

That became the topic when hoss cried "uncle" on all his crappy analogies and arguments he's made on this thread. Now this is an expo thread, apparently.

And those that are actually pushing this are laughing all the way.
 
I’ve been there a couple of times for the taxidermy show competing. So what’s all the gossip about? So there’s more going on behind the scenes? How’s does all this tie in with what this post about?
 
Myself and other like-minded individuals don’t seek to end long range hunting but merely put a check on it since it is getting out of hand and everyone knows it.

Reducing scope power to 9x is merely a reasonable and prudent step in doing so.

Of course it would take good, conservation-minded, forward-thinking individuals in positions of power to do so because the blowback would be tremendous.
 
Vanilla said:
You are king of moving the goal posts in this thread. And now the expo is the boogie man. Whatever. Let's get back to how these proposals are going to give you such great hunting opportunities in the future.

I'm not intersted in a never ending moving the goal posts circle jerk. I've answered every question you've asked. But I'm not going to just keep swatting at phantom arguments. Say something worth addressing, and I'll do that.
Click to expand...

Yeah

It's well known I just barely, regarding your hypocrisy trotted out the DONT FUND THE ENEMY point.

Not a single person has ever heard me say that. Ever.

The goalpost did t move, the folks you oppose, you pay.

Same thing I've said to Bess, Newberg, Muley 73, Lumpy, and dozens of others, for at least a decade, if not longer.


Every year, Bess says the same thing you did.

But you set yourself on some platform as being the champion of oppurtunists. I didn't.
 
Plateau said:
Here are the weapon definitions of the proposed plan.
https://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac_minutes/memorandum-2024-10-17-deer-hunt-strategies-research-proposal.pdf

It does not have to be straight-walled.

Restricted weapons definitions:
Restricted archery — current definition with the following additional restrictions:
(a) must be a single-stringed longbow or recurve bow with no cables, pulleys or cams;
(b) has no sights; and
(c) has a draw weight of 40 pounds or more.
Restricted muzzleloader — current definition with the following additional restrictions:
(a) the ignition system is limited to traditional flintlock, wheellock, matchlock, musket cap, or percussion cap which must be entirely visible when the hammer is drawn back. All other ignition systems, including 209 primers, are prohibited; and
(b) contains only open sights or peep sights.
Restricted rifle — current definition with the following additional restrictions:
(a) contains only open sights or peep sights; and
(b) cannot be semi-automatic.

Do you think the Northwest Legal CVA's fit this requirement?
https://muzzle-loaders.com/products...07Qxus6UKFIM9hnwliRDiIvzQcj6gU83WCeJwGKyuFazE

I have a CVA Optima and for $50 could convert it to musket caps. I'm just not sure it would fit the "entirely visible when the hammer is drawn back" requirement. I guess it probably wouldn't.
Click to expand...
White fits the restrictions
 
I don’t see anything wrong with what we have now. I think it should be up to the individual. If you’re talking about the scope’s that came out that guarantee a kill I’m with you. Look at the success rate 22% that’s pretty bad. Long range hunters are not the problem.
 
Vanilla said:
That became the topic when hoss cried "uncle" on all his crappy analogies and arguments he's made on this thread. Now this is an expo thread, apparently.

And those that are actually pushing this are laughing all the way.
Click to expand...

Yeah.

I'm the one who foolishly claimed a hardship of putting sights, on a pre 64 model 70, that came WITH SIGHTS.

I'm the one who somehow sees a difference in putting them on a muzzy vs Rifle.

I'm the one who spent 6 pages talking about Carl Albrecht, but too afraid to mention his name.

I'm the one talking about "downward pressure" of switching units continuously, while I switch units continuously.

And I'm the one who hand $fw pukes of $5 bills, yearly, then complains about their lobbyist working back rooms.

Now, Vanilla has never heard this, so I hope he is paying attention.

IF YOU HAND THE ENEMIES OF OPPURTUNITY YOU CASH, YOU ARENT PRO OPPURTUNITY.

Maybe we can get a find to buy Vanilla some new sights for his model 70, it's a huge hardship to replace what was there to start with
 
quest said:
I don’t see anything wrong with what we have now. I think it should be up to the individual. If you’re talking about the scope’s that came out that guarantee a kill I’m with you. Look at the success rate 22% that’s pretty bad. Long range hunters are not the problem.
Click to expand...

Does that include archery? Or only alw? And do we take into consideration the massive winterkill from a record winter the year before?
 
If you want to find out how far someone harvested a deer put that question on the mandatory reporting. Let’s get some solid data before we make hunters change their setup.
 
Are you mad because even with all the bread crumbs I've dropped, you haven't been able to put two and two together? You still are focused on one name and an expo, which tells me you still aren't getting it.

Not my fault Hossy! I look forward to the day you move on from your semi-crazy and mostly idiotic ramblings here. But my beefs on this have been clear from my first post. You keep trying to muddy the waters. Who got to you? Do I need to "follow the money?"
 
Last edited:
quest said:
If you want to find out how far someone harvested a deer put that question on the mandatory reporting. Let’s get some solid data before we make hunters change their setup.
Click to expand...

How do you get data on apr, or weapon restrictions if you haven't done either.

That's kinda the point of a small sample size and a limited time frame.

Probably why they had to include Cache and a southern unit, as winter kill is a major variable.

I hunt the Manti I'm fine if it's included.

As an opportunist I'll take the tag, then negotiate the challenges be it weapons, APR , climate, forest fire, road closure, etc

Tag=oppurtunity
 
Vanilla said:
Are you mad because even with all the bread crumbs I've dropped, you haven't been able to put two and two together?

Not my fault Hossy! I look forward to the day you move on from your semi-crazy and mostly idiotic ramblings here. But my beefs on this have been clear from my first post. You keep trying to muddy the waters. Who got to you? Do I need to "follow the money?"
Click to expand...

Mad?

Do you need a hug? Are your feelings hurt?

I know, clowning your gun story was hurtful, but anyone whose ever seen a model 70 was shaking their heads, I chose to vocalize it.

I really was hoping you had some actual inside knowledge. I mean 6 pages "dropping bread crumbs"🙄. To name Albrecht 🤣🤣🤣🤣

How many pages do you need for Don Peay?

No one is "muddying the water". You just want it both ways, and got called out for it.

Your so concerned about "year 6", while 3 months from now, you'll be forking over more cash, giving them the power for year 1-6.

But then, what do I know.?

I'm sure there are guys who bought playboy for the articles while opposing pornography. And I'm sure there are guys who go to the strip club for the lunch special, but oppose naked dancing.

I guess you can champion opportunity while paying the anti oppurtunists too🤣

Now buck up Sally, we actually agree probably 90% of the time, I'll need you not in tears then
 
It isn't really about agreeing or disagreeing. There are plenty of people that have figured out this is about way more than the fake story of opportunity that has been sold.

I'm just trying to help you out. Choose to accept the help or not. Either way, my offer for double or nothing on the beers you owe me is still available if you're so certain I'm wrong in what I posted. I'm pretty certain I'm not, just for the record, but I also have been paying attention the last 15 years.

Or we can just keep this about the expo. Either way.
 
Vanilla said:
It isn't really about agreeing or disagreeing. There are plenty of people that have figured out this is about way more than the fake story of opportunity that has been sold.

I'm just trying to help you out. Choose to accept the help or not. Either way, my offer for double or nothing on the beers you owe me is still available if you're so certain I'm wrong in what I posted. I'm pretty certain I'm not, just for the record, but I also have been paying attention the last 15 years.

Or we can just keep this about the expo. Either way.
Click to expand...

I watched as @Hawkeye gave himself concussions beating his head against the wall on how $fw is funded, where their power is derived from, and what their ultimate goal is. It is.

LOSS OF OPPURTUNITY.

They(and their handful of goons in the legislature like Albrecht and Shultz) cut hundreds of thousands of tags. They pushed for expanding LE. They push for lessening the rules on what can be a CWMU can be.

Do I think that if they could the whole state would be LE, yes. So saying "in 6 years", is silly. They'd do it next year, if given the chance.


Every year, I get the phone # for every legislator on the hill. As subjects come up, I call, and push them.

It's pretty rare, other than a small handful, that they have any knowledge of a subject related to wildlife. But when they do, and I ask, it's because they were given positions from $fw, or were lobbied directly from them. Honestly, short of the yeoman's work Casey Snider is doing, no one represents the majority of us.

So yeah. When you want to fight for oppurtunity, we are arm in arm.

But, the people we fight, you are financing. The anti oppurtunists have a paid, very effective lobbying effort. We don't.

You can not like hearing it, or want to pretend it's not so, but handing $$ to $fw is cutting your throat, as an oppurtunist. It's not a sight. Or a 4 point. Combine every tag in those units, and it's not a tenth, of what the folks your funding took from you.

150,000 dudes LOST AN OPPURTUNITY.

That's a fact
 
notdonhunting said:
Hossblur,
Do you really think it is a good idea to only allow recurve and long bows as archery equipment?
Click to expand...

He does, in the name of "opportunity." You know, on the one unit that they are proposing restrictions to recurve and long bows that they are removing from the general season units and making it LE again.

You know....opportunity! He'll show up with his long bow ready to go on that tag that will still be there, though!
 
Vanilla said:
He does, in the name of "opportunity." You know, on the one unit that they are proposing restrictions to recurve and long bows that they are removing from the general season units and making it LE again.

You know....opportunity! He'll show up with his long bow ready to go on that tag that will still be there, though!
Click to expand...
That is exactly the concept behind the HAMS, and or "Primitive Weapon" hunts.
Restricted weapons, more tags (opportunity).
 
How do you balance opportunity with over over crowding? I would imagine the success rate would go down?
 
slamdunk said:
That is exactly the concept behind the HAMS, and or "Primitive Weapon" hunts.
Restricted weapons, more tags (opportunity).
Click to expand...

Except that the only unit they are proposing restrictions for archery in the new plan is Thousand Lakes, which they are also proposing go back to LE.

Guys, I'm not making this stuff up. This whole "opportunity" narrative is complete bullchit!

Call it what it is: a trophy hunter proposal. We can disagree on managagment desires and goals. Everyone is entiteld to their own opinion, and they can be different. But if we are not willing to be honest about what this really is, it makes it rather hard to even debate the issues.
 
Vanilla said:
Except that the only unit they are proposing restrictions for archery in the new plan is Thousand Lakes, which they are also proposing go back to LE.

Guys, I'm not making this stuff up. This whole "opportunity" narrative is complete bullchit!

Call it what it is: a trophy hunter proposal. We can disagree on managagment desires and goals. Everyone is entiteld to their own opinion, and they can be different. But if we are not willing to be honest about what this really is, it makes it rather hard to even debate the issues.
Click to expand...
I am fully aware of those facts, yes.

That unit has been an armpit for decades, even as an LE.
 
Well what is a trophy? My idea of a trophy is 30 inch 4x4 but that’s not realistic in this environment. I think bucks in the 22 to 24 inch range is more realistic. Which are lacking in our deer herds.
 
quest said:
Well what is a trophy? My idea of a trophy is 30 inch 4x4 but that’s not realistic in this environment. I think bucks in the 22 to 24 inch range is more realistic. Which are lacking in our deer herds.
Click to expand...
The adjective "trophy" has been grossly abused in this thread.

The goal is older age classes, not "Trophy" like B&C standards.
 
slamdunk said:
I am fully aware of those facts, yes.

That unit has been an armpit for decades, even as an LE.
Click to expand...

Then why did you say the archery proposal (which is what notdon specifically asked about) would increase tags? If you're aware, and you still said it would increase tags, something is amiss.

Come on Slam. Just be honest about the motivation. Then we can agree to disagree on how we best manage.
 
Vanilla said:
Then why did you say the archery proposal (which is what notdon specifically asked about) would increase tags? If you're aware, and you still said it would increase tags, something is amiss.

Come on Slam. Just be honest about the motivation. Then we can agree to disagree on how we best manage.
Click to expand...
I wasn't referring to anything "statewide" on archery, if that is the argument, I was only referring to the definitions the technology committee put into place for the long bows and recurve style archery.

Perhaps I misunderstood his comment.
 
How Bout We Grow Some More Deer So We Can Offer More F'N Opportunity?

Instead Of:

Let's YANK The Magnified Scopes Off Of SmokePoles,Study It For 5 GAWD-DAMNED Years,And See If That Fixed The DRATville Deer Herd!

Then When They See That Didn't Fix The Deer Herd They Can Say:

Well,We Tried!

Let's Go To STUPID SHHITT Plan # 567 & Try That For 5 Years & See If That Fixes It!

HINT:

It Won't And Not Any Of These Other STUPID SSHITT Plans Is Gonna Fix It Either!

Gonna Take Some Major CHANGE To Try & Turn It Around!
 

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