Senate File 69: allocation on Big Game License (change to 10% for NR)

Buzz, If you believe a 1.4$ increase in sheep tags is going to help draw tags quicker...good for you!

I looked at bison and goat. With 90% of tags going to res the increase chance for res would be 0.5% for bison and 0.2% for goat. I know Buzz isn't a rocket scientist but there is a snowballs chance in the summer for a Wyo res to draw a bison or goat tag in their lifetime even if they took all the tags away from nonres!
 
I'm glad you clarified things! If this passes Wyo res with max or 1 pref pt less than max may have a snowballs chance to draw a sheep in their lifetimes...and a couple units res w/11 or 12 pref pts may draw licenses in their lifetime! Wyo res bison and goat hunters will still have a snowballs chance of ever drawing a tag whether this comes to pass or not!

After the dust settles and Wyo res get stuck with doubling what they currently have to fork out each year to apply for these licenses there will likely be a lot of whining going on! Wyo res can thank Buzz for steam rolling the higher res prices for applying with literally 0 improved chance of drawing tags in their lifetimes!

There will be 0.2%, 0.5%, and 1.5% better chance for goat, bison, and random sheep tags for Wyo res if this passes. Not sure if it is worth it?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-15 AT 11:01AM (MST)[p]>>>"Ya a lot of outfitters are
>>>crooks anyways a couple on
>>>that page are really bad
>>>and one I think you
>>>mentioned last night he leases
>>>the family ranch went in
>>>and killed every deer and
>>>antelope on it completely
>>>ruined the hunting on it
>>>it's taken 15 plus years
>>>of management hunting to bring
>>>the big deer it had
>>>on it back there just
>>>after the money now and
>>>screw the younger generation"
>>>
>>>I doubt that surprises anyone. wyoelkslayer?
>>>
>
>>So now EVERY guide and outfitter
>>in the state of Wyoming
>>is a crook because they
>>are going to fight to
>>keep their livelihood going that
>>this 50% cut in tags
>>may present?
>
>Do you make it up as
>you go Mike? Where did
>you read that? Maybe you
>should clean the steam off
>your glasses. But I will
>tell you this, he was
>talking about your old buddy!
>

Didn't make anything up after I read your post! You took ONE guy saying ONE outfitter raped a ranch and then made the statement: "I doubt that surprises anyone" in calling out "wyoelkslayer?" If you didn't mean to stretch it out like you didn't mean all of them are that way then what was the purpose of even putting up that post? Sy is also not my "old buddy", but from the way I've seen him operate on the Orchard Ranch I wouldn't say that I would agree with the guy in your post either because they appear pretty careful in the number of hunters they take every year and what they take off that big ranch. That's the only comment I can make because that's the only place I can see where and how SY operates.
 
BuzzH---Please save yourself some time from now on when you talk about the outfitters and put a nice lengthy post in a file somewhere on your computer so you can just do a C/P onto a thread! I'm really worried that these lengthy posts are going to cause your trigger finger to fall off from it's constant use bashing them, LOL! Also, I don't believe that I, or anyone else, has ever argued that you aren't correct in your overall analysis of them. However, I firmly believe that a decent percentage of them are just as much a conservationist as you and a good share of us other folks that love the land are. Jake Clark is one that immediately comes to mind and there are many others out there like him that aren't raping the land just because their income is made by outfitting/guiding. It's sort of like bashing you because you work for the USFS and because you are paid by taxpayer money your a POS do nothing. Get my drift? To lump them all together like you always do is just not right or fair IMHO, but that's your MO and I'm sure it will continue.
 
Mikey,

Facts matter...and you when you provide one on this thread, it will be your first.

Fact is, a majority of Resident hunters want 90% of their sheep, goat, moose, and bison tags.

That's the only fact that matters.
 
Buzz, please enlighten all of us with my next question. If the 90% sheep, moose, goat, and bison tags going to Wyo res passes are you planning on doing something similar with deer, elk, and antelope tags?

All I want is a yes or no answer...nothing else!
 
>Mikey,
>
>Facts matter...and you when you provide
>one on this thread, it
>will be your first.
>
>Fact is, a majority of Resident
>hunters want 90% of their
>sheep, goat, moose, and bison
>tags.
>
>That's the only fact that matters.
>


You wouldn't know what a FACT is if it jumped up and bit you in the azz!!! Look the definition up in the dictionary sometime and if you can find where it says any time BuzzH makes a statement that it's FACT I'll kiss your, LOL!
 
Sebastian,

No.

I will oppose any such legislation to reduce NR quota percentages on deer, elk, and pronghorn.

I will support Wildlife Managers when they adjust (both up and down) total quotas on all three species, based on science and biological reasons.

BTW, expect other changes on some of the stuff we've talked about previously. Some very receptive ideas floated at last nights GF meeting here in Laramie....
 
Jims,
With the number of resident applicants and the number of sheep and moose tags currently available all will draw a tag. There is many areas that do not require full points to get a tag for sheep and moose.
Why should Wyoming be the ambassador of generosity when it comes to non resident licenses?
Why do you think resident fees will go up? That has to be passed in legislation. The game and fish lost more revenue than this will be just in the reduction of tags last year. And that tag number should go back up a little this year baring a high winter kill. Maybe the outfitters should make up the difference. They don't contribute anything now and yet profit from the Wyoming wildlife. And maybe fees should go up. Paying a higher fee to hunt what is essentially a once in a lifetime hunt is more than fare. And many residents also are willing to pay it.
 
and Buzz is not "the one" to thank. Although I'm glad he is on our side of this. He is great asset for issues like this. You can thank everyone that is in favor of this. Which is most resident hunters. Its hot topic in Wyoming. I haven't seen hunters come together like this since the outfitters tried to get transferable landowner tags. Ask Sy Gilliland how that went.
 
>Mikey, If I bother to type
>it, your best move would
>be to take out your
>notepad and pen...


LOL! If your head and ego get any bigger it will explode! This Bill may well pass, but if it doesn't you are going to be the laughing stock of every site you visit with your FACTS!!!!

PS: It is probably close to a fact that the only reason nobody will go for a 90/10 split for elk, deer, and antelope is that you know darn well that there is no way to cover that huge money loss without supplemental funding of some sort. Residents will certainly not pony up what would be needed to cover the millions in losses. Also, now with oil prices in the tank and Wyoming losing many millions of dollars a day in revenue, I'd make an educated guess and say that there is no way any funding possibilities will be brought up outside the routine funding by fee increases for those of us that play the game. If all you residents are so sure that the majority will go for a fee increase, how about having a Bill introduced that will double your fees and leave the NRs where they are at? I'm sure they'd go for that when the Legislature didn't even feel confident to pass a 10% increase the last time, LOL!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-15 AT 01:05PM (MST)[p]Mikey,

Like I said, your best move is to just take out the notepad and pen, pull your head out of your a$$, and start listening.

If you think the reason that the legislature killed the funding bills last session because Residents didn't want a fee increase...you're delusional.

I have talked with lots of Legislators why it didn't happen, and it wasn't because Residents didn't want a fee increase...far from it.

They were given the information from polls, meetings, etc. that supported a Resident Fee increase. All the wildlife groups supported a Resident fee increase as well. The Legislators had nothing to fear from push-back by Residents if they would have approved a Resident fee increase.

If you were waiting for an opportune time to take out that notepad and pen, this is it...you've been lead to water.
 
Thankfully, a genetic anomaly prevents my pulse from rising when talking about Sheep, Goats, and Moose so I have zero points.

I have seen estimates of a 50%-75% reduction of NR applicants paying for PP. While a "guess" on all accounts, there is no way on planet earth that 50% will drop out.
Does it make financial sense to stay in? Of course not, but had most bothered to use a calculator, they wouldn't have started in the first place.
 
>Thankfully, a genetic anomaly prevents my
>pulse from rising when talking
>about Sheep, Goats, and Moose
>so I have zero points.
>
>
> I have seen estimates of
>a 50%-75% reduction of NR
>applicants paying for PP. While
>a "guess" on all accounts,
>there is no way on
>planet earth that 50% will
>drop out.
>Does it make financial sense to
>stay in? Of course not,
>but had most bothered to
>use a calculator, they wouldn't
>have started in the first
>place.

WapitiBob,

I too am somewhat surprised and perplexed by the continued purchase of NR sheep and moose preference points by those NR just getting into the game for the first time and those in the lower level bonus point pools when even at the CURRENT NR quotas they will never draw a tag in their lifetime. Some possible explanations;

1. NR's are relying on the advice of their application service and don't really understand each state's draw system and are blindly buying a preference points for moose and sheep in WY. Remember the commonly used adage; "apply, apply, apply!"

2. NR's are actually applying for a preference or random tag in the drawing by fronting the $2,252 sheep tag fee and the $1,402 moose tag fee along with the $15 application fee. This makes the most sense to me as to the low or no point applicants.

3. NR's are hoping those point holders above them draw out, die, or quit applying for a tag so they can move up more quickly than would otherwise be possible based on their current point level. We all know however from Hornedtoads' calculations that the attrition rate has been extremely low,

4. NR's are hoping they will be able to take advantage of any potential change to the preference point system by continuing to buy points (i.e. squaring points, increased % of random tags, etc) so that they can draw faster than originally anticipated.

5. NR's are hoping the animal populations increase with a corresponding increase in the NR tags so they can draw sooner than initially anticipated.

How else can one explain 1,317 NR obtaining their first preference point for sheep last year? They will all be dead before they have any shot at a tag - even under the current NR quota. They will be dead TWICE under the new proposed 10% NR tag quota. Now, some of the newbies might have actually fronted the tag fee hoping to draw a random tag. But looking at the draw demand report we see that only approx 25% of the NR's with sheep points actually applied in the drawing for a shot at a random tag and I would bet it is a mix throughout the point classes. Most likely those with enough disposable income or credit card credit to front the $2,252 for a lottery chance at a random draw sheep tag. After all, as they say, someone has to draw!

IMO, for the fiscal note not to include any loss of NR preference point fee revenue is wishful thinking and irresponsible. Myself, I have 15 sheep points so I will probably hang in there for a few years to see what happens. On the other hand, I have been buying my son moose and sheep preference points since he was 12 years old but no more. He has accumulated 10 years of what will become useless preference points at a cost to me of $1,589. Consider it a donation to WYG&F.

It might just be me, but this propsed change after 10 years of buying expensive preference points just leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Kind of like last year when NM changed their sheep, ibex, and oryx NR quotas right in the middle of the draw. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me...

Horniac
 
"I too am somewhat surprised and perplexed by the continued purchase of NR sheep and moose preference points by those NR just getting into the game for the first time and those in the lower level bonus point pools when even at the CURRENT NR quotas they will never draw a tag in their lifetime."

This is why I firmly believe the NR will continue to apply and not pull out even with the new quota's, should they pass. I will be shocked if even 20% pull out.
 
The fiscal impact cannot include speculation, that's left to the outfitters in this case.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-15
>AT 01:05?PM (MST)
>
>Mikey,
>
>Like I said, your best move
>is to just take out
>the notepad and pen, pull
>your head out of your
>a$$, and start listening.
>
>If you think the reason that
>the legislature killed the funding
>bills last session because Residents
>didn't want a fee increase...you're
>delusional.
>
>I have talked with lots of
>Legislators why it didn't happen,
>and it wasn't because Residents
>didn't want a fee increase...far
>from it.
>
>They were given the information from
>polls, meetings, etc. that supported
>a Resident Fee increase. All
>the wildlife groups supported a
>Resident fee increase as well.
>The Legislators had nothing to
>fear from push-back by Residents
>if they would have approved
>a Resident fee increase.
>
>If you were waiting for an
>opportune time to take out
>that notepad and pen, this
>is it...you've been lead to
>water.


So tell me oh wise one, while I have my pen and pad ready. Why was there no increase in fees if all the Legislators in the state were told that the majority of residents they represent were in favor of one? After all, they are supposed to vote the way the majority of their constituents ask them to, aren't they?
 
Mikey,

You know it all about Wyoming...you tell me smart guy.

You've never seen politicians vote against the majority?

Live in a cave or in denial?

Laffin'...
 
>Mikey,
>
>You know it all about Wyoming...you
>tell me smart guy.
>
>You've never seen politicians vote against
>the majority?
>
>Live in a cave or in
>denial?
>
>Laffin'...


Just about what I figured you'd say Mr. Wise Guy! Sure Legislators can vote against the majority, but now it looks as if you've painted yourself in a corner. I asked a simple question that a person as wise as you are and that knows all the FACTS should be able to reasonably answer without another smartazz comment that you're very famous for on more than this website! Please tell all of us dumb members why the fee Bills went down to defeat when the majority of the resident hunters and organizations were backing them. Please, either respond with a proper legitimate answer or no comeback at all!
 
If you cannot say excatly how many will pull out then the impact will have to include speculation don't be stupid.

It's called an estimate.



Like Honiac says it will be intersting to see how many dropped out of of the MT draw, if it's not quite a few I know I will. being a max point holder is only worth so much when there are a million of you after a dozen tags. if you have to live 388 years like a lower point holder in WY it's even tougher.














Stay thirsty my friends
 
I believe JM77's point is that an estimate of 75% loss is no more valid than an estimate of a 10% increase. Being that neither can be quantified, based purely on a WAG (wild ass guess, not to be confused with FF or BFD), the "estimate" has no place in the Legislation.
 
Get a grip 440 and don't call me stupid. If you had any idea what kind of whiner you appear like on these posts...

That's right Bob, the G&F will not add the unknown into a fiscal impact statement on a bill. They may, however, if asked in testimony, acknowledge there may be additional losses or gains.
 
>>Mikey,
>>
>>You know it all about Wyoming...you
>>tell me smart guy.
>>
>>You've never seen politicians vote against
>>the majority?
>>
>>Live in a cave or in
>>denial?
>>
>>Laffin'...
>
>
>Just about what I figured you'd
>say Mr. Wise Guy!
>Sure Legislators can vote against
>the majority, but now it
>looks as if you've painted
>yourself in a corner.
>I asked a simple question
>that a person as wise
>as you are and that
>knows all the FACTS should
>be able to reasonably answer
>without another smartazz comment that
>you're very famous for on
>more than this website!
>Please tell all of us
>dumb members why the fee
>Bills went down to defeat
>when the majority of the
>resident hunters and organizations were
>backing them. Please, either
>respond with a proper legitimate
>answer or no comeback at
>all!

Mike,
There was a lot more to the failing of the license fee increase bill than you know. The 90/10 bill could not even be compared to it, totally different situations.
 
One side sees the other as a bunch of tender-ass whiners.
One side sees the other as a bunch of smart-ass gloaters.
I'm sure that most of us are somewhere closer to the middle.
This discussion is worth every penny we're paying for it but hey, y'all know where I stand.

Whiner's group member,
Zeke
 
For those that don't believe that it will take longer than a lifetime for those that don't have close to max pts to draw here's a few numbers from the 2014 draw.

There were 16 units available for Wyo res to apply in 2014. Of those 16 units 13 units took 17 or more pref pts to have a chance of drawing tags. 1 unit took 15 pts, 1 unit 14 pts and the last unit required 12 pts to have a decent chance of drawing sheep tags. There were no tags available in 2014 that took fewer than 12 pts to draw.

These numbers don't even account for all of the Wyo res with close to max pts that applied for just pref pts and didn't apply for units.

I'm sure everyone is aware of pt creep. This happens when the supply is much smaller than the number of applicants for high demand units. In reality the supply for sheep tags are a lot higher than tags issued. With current tag numbers issued, there would be 34 additional sheep tags issued if Wyo res were offered 90% of the tags. The 34 additional tags will hardly put a dent in the number of Wyo res sheep applicants that currently have close to max pref pts. Just as I stated in my other post...Wyo res that currently don't have close to max pref pts will hardly have a snowball's chance of ever drawing sheep tags irregardless if this deal passes or not!
 
I looked up an additional draw stat that might interest Wyo res that believe there chances will improve if they don't have close to max pref pts to draw.

If 90% of the sheep tags are issured to res...there would be 192 total tags issued to Wyo res. In 2014 there were 10,954 total applicants that applied for sheep. It would take 57 years to filter through 10,954 applicants. Those hunters that are currently 10 years old would be 67+ years old before they were assured tags, 20 years old or older would be 77+ years old before they draw tags, and so on. Unfortunately this doesn't account for additional hunters that start applying for pref pts from this year on.

The real eye-opener is the past 4 years there have been roughly 1,000 new, additional Wyo res sheep applicants that just started applying for pref pts each year. With only only 192 tags issued and over 1,000 new Wyo res applicants that start applying for tags each year there is no way young hunters will ever have a chance to draw tags in the pref pt pool...end of story!
 
jims said

>The real eye-opener is the past
>4 years there have been
>roughly 1,000 new, additional Wyo
>res sheep applicants that just
>started applying for pref pts
>each year.
>

Perfect reason to pass this bill.

I'll listen jims when Colo starts giving NR 25% on sheep.
 
Another thing Sebastian doesn't think about, is that people stop applying all the time.

If you look at 10 years worth of data, the point pools shrink faster than they draw tags.

Some give up, some get hit by a bus, lose interest, draw other states, etc. etc. etc.

Plus, if we put more sheep on the mountain, we will cycle through the pools much faster.
 
Buzz and JM,
There is no way kids and new Wyo res hunters just starting out applying will ever draw a sheep tag in the pref pt pool in their lifetime!

If you take a look at the draw stats there was actually over 1,700 new Wyo res that applied for sheep starting in 2014. Take a look at the draw stats and there aren't fewer than 192 applicants in pref pt pools until applicants with 18+ pref pts! If there are only 192 tags issued and more than 192 applicants in a pref pt pool it means that point creep will continue.

Unfortunately kids and those just starting out applying for sheep tags have 0 chance in their lifetime of ever drawing sheep tags in the pref pt draw and only around a 3% chance of drawing in the random draw pool....end of story. Sorry Buzz but you are absolutely wrong!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-15 AT 11:20PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-15 AT 11:15?PM (MST)

Sebastian,

Go look at 10 years worth of data...get back to me.

Attrition in the point pools is a given, happens every year.

Its also pretty apparent, for those that care to look, that many of the top point holders don't even enter the draw. All they do is continue to collect points, which reduces the number of preference points required to draw a preference tag in many units.

Populations of bighorns are also very likely to increase over time.

Care to talk about moose? Or did you already draw a moose tag, so you don't care about anyone else now that you got yours?

Just curious how its going with you pushing to get NR's 25% of Colorado's sheep tags?

How's the legislation coming along?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-15 AT 11:41PM (MST)[p]I looked 10 years back and it's the same thing! Young or new hunters starting out applying in Wyo will never have a chance of drawing a pref pt sheep tag in their lifetimes....end of story! It's just as simple as that!

To tell you the truth Buzz, I already drew a Wyo moose tag. My son and I both dropped out of the moose draw about 6 years ago because I saw the writing on the wall. I haven't applied for a Wyo sheep tag in around 15 years. As much as you may think I only am concerned about myself, I have quite a few nonres average Joe buddies that some year would like to hunt Wyo sheep and moose. When it comes to average Joe hunters (both res and nonres) I'm always willing to help out! Take a look at gear and advice forums on this and other website and you'll notice that I'm not only concerned about my own interests and self! If you want me to gather moose data I would be glad to....I'm pretty sure it will open your eyes to exactly what is going on! You likely won't believe me so I'm not exactly sure if it's worth wasting my time.

To all Wyo res hunters....the fact is....Wyo res youth and hunters just starting out applying for Wyo sheep tags will never draw tags in the pref pt draw in their lifetimes!
 
Jims you are not counting attrition. Go look at the point totals. See how the number of people go down as number of points goes up. Its not because they drew tags or there is more interest now. Every year there is a lot of people buying that first point. But like Buzz said some get hit by busses.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-15 AT 07:41AM (MST)[p]Wyohunter, the numbers were taken directly off the WG&F website and are exactly what I used in my statements above. These numbers are actually a lot lower than they likely would be if 90% of tags go to Wyo res. The reason I say this is because there will likely be a purge of additional new applicants that start applying for sheep, goat, moose, and bison with the misconception that their draw odds will increase. In all reality if this deal passes there likely will be more new applicants that start applying for tags for the first time than the current levels and the additional 10% tags will supply. If you think point creep is bad now....it would be called POINT LEAPING if this happens!

The truth to the matter is young and new Wyo res that start applying for sheep tags don't have a chance of drawing sheep pref pt sheep tags in their lifetime with 90% of the total sheep tags going to residents!
 
Sebastian,

Really, they have no chance in their lifetimes?

According to your figures, they would.

Also, go back and look again at the point pools...notice how the point pools decline in number.

For example with Resident applicants...last year 1757 people applied with no points. The point pool with 5 points is already down to 625.

You're running your "figures" assuming all 10,000 people stay in the game. Attrition in the point pools is a fact, I just pointed it out to you.

Look at the point totals after this year, there wont be 1757 people in the 2015 2 point pool. I bet at least 200, if not more, drop out.

In the land of changing priorities, instant gratification, etc. most are not going to apply faithfully for 20+ years. The point pool table is proof and why the number of applicants decline sharply past the 5 point pool.

Those that stay the course in Wyoming will hunt sheep in their lifetimes...some way sooner rather than later.
 
Buzz, you are absolutely correct with the res pref pt pool attrition numbers. I am keeping these numbers in mind with my statements! You can spin them around all you want. With the new 90% res sheep tags there would only be 192 res tags issued in the pref pt pool. If you look close there are over 192 applicants in every pool until you get to the guys with 19 pref pts. Take a look at the big picture and there were 10,954 resident applicants for a scant 192 sheep tags in 2014!

Do you seriously think more hunters will drop out if they hear that there are more tags available to Wyo res? The reality is there will likely be more res that apply for sheep, moose, mtn goat, and bison since they may have the misconsumption that they suddenly have a chance to draw res tags!

Wyo res may want to think long and hard about this one! With these tags in such high demand it doesn't take many additional applicants to make pref pt creep suddenly turn to pref pt leap! In fact, my guess is that if this deal passes Wyo res draw odds will actually decrease. It would almost be like they are shooting themselves in the foot! The ones that will totally get screwed are the young hunters and new hunters just starting out! I would seriously think long and hard about the long term consequences and impacts this bill will have on Wyo res, Wyo nonres, and finances!

The truth to the matter still is Wyo res kids and first time applicants don't stand a chance in drawing pref pt sheep tags in their lifetime....take a closer look at the pref pt tables and you will understand completely what I am saying!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-15 AT 10:15AM (MST)[p]jims it's obvious you're right but you're never going to win.

Math isn't their strong point all they know is we're getting something they feel entitled to. just this passed before the stupid voters do the math on it.




Stay thirsty my friends
 
Sebastian,

You're not right, the pool I started applying in 15 years ago looked pretty much the same, actually, IIRC, it was worse.

Now, 15 years down the road, my point pool is down to 331, and there are a couple areas that I could likely draw.

The separation of those chasing the top units is starting to become apparent as are the point hoarders.

How many NR's with max sheep points applied for a tag last year in Wyoming?

What you fail to realize is that people in each point pool drop at a pretty significant rate for all kinds of reasons, in particular those at the lower end. That really changes things for individual draw odds 10 years down the road for those that stay the course.

Heres the bottom line, this 90/10 bill is smart legislation and will no question put 100+ Wyoming Residents in the field for moose, sheep, goat, and bison each year.

That's the results we're looking for...try to "spin" that math.

I like the improved odds of having another 100 tags available to Residents...they've earned it, and deserve 90%...period.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-15
>AT 10:15?AM (MST)
>
>jims it's obvious you're right but
>you're never going to win.
>
>
>Math isn't their strong point all
>they know is we're getting
>something they feel entitled to.
>just this passed before the
>stupid voters do the math
>on it.
>
>
>
>
>Stay thirsty my friends

There's that "stupid" word again. Everyone but you, right 440?
 
jims

If you can't see the attrition on point holders, you are either blind, in denial, or what 440 is calling Wy residents.
 
So Buzz, do you have 15 sheep points? If so, you really need this to pass to increase your odds. Good for you brother if it passes. I am in the exact opposite boat, if it passes I will never draw with 14 non resident points. Mind if I tag a long on your sheep hunt? If you do have 15 points, you are far from having a bias opinion.
 
Buzz and JM, Obviously both of you would be in favor of this because it gives those with close to max pts a fraction better chance to draw in the pref pt pool. Unfortunately this comes at the expense of the majority of lower pref pt tier applicants. What is sad is you don't seemed concerned about the affects this will have on young and new applicants just starting out...they will be screwed!

If this passes wouldn't you expect the attrition of point holders to slow considerably? You might ask around to see how many of your Wyo res hunting buddies and their entire families that currently apply for sheep, moose, mtn goat, and bison tags will stick with it and continue to apply. My uneducated guess is attrition will slow dramatically and more Wyo res will start applying for these tags. Unfortunately they are doing this with the misconception that they will have better chances for drawing tags.

My prediction is Wyo draw odds increase for both Wyo res and nonres in the random draw. Secondl, young hunters starting out will never stand a chance in the pref pt pool. Lastly the most important prediction....Buzz and JM will likely draw sheep tags in the next 5 years at the expense of young, new, and nonres hunters!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-18-15 AT 03:01PM (MST)[p]Sebastian,

Now you're just flat not making sense...

Buzz and JM, Obviously both of you would be in favor of this because it gives those with close to max pts a fraction better chance to draw in the pref pt pool. Unfortunately this comes at the expense of the majority of lower pref pt tier applicants.

How is having more Residents cycling through the system and drawing tags hurting those in lower point pools?

The more people that draw tags, the more the point pools clear...that's just a fact.

No, I don't expect attrition to slow, it hasn't historically with increases in available permits.

It pretty simple Sebastian, people move out of state, people forget to apply, people have shifting priorities, some quit hunting, some die, some get too old...the list is endless on why attrition happens.

Some drop out of the Wyoming Sheep draw because one B&C sheep in a lifetime is enough. My Dad would have 15 points if he would have kept applying here. But, trying to top a 185 and change gross, net 183 and change B&C sheep would be tough to do in Wyoming.

IMG_0763.JPG


But, regardless of the reasons, it does, and those that stay dedicated to the process find themselves at the top of the heap. Those willing to draw lesser units, they find themselves drawing preference point tags in lower pools.

Its all fact....just take a look at the draw odds.

Personally, I don't care if I ever draw another tag, in fact, I care so little the last bull elk tag I drew in AZ in 2012, I donated to Hunt Of A Lifetime.

I've already killed one bighorn and one thin horn sheep, along with a pile of other critters.

It just isn't that big of a deal personally. I just want Wyoming Residents afforded the same split as those in surrounding states.

Its just that simple.
 
Buzz, nice ram! Who's the elf on the right side of the picture?

To simplify things there has to be more attrition and tags drawn than new hunters starting out applying or pref pts will continue to creep. Does that make sense? I can't explain it any simpler than that!

How many Wyo res hunters and their families do you know that currently don't apply for sheep, moose, goat, and bison because they don't think they stand a snowballs chance of ever drawing a tag? I just got an email from a Wyo buddy that stated he would likely start applying his daughter for sheep and moose tags if Wyo goes to a 90/10 split. How many Wyo families do you think share that same opinion?

Doesn't it also make sense that if Wyo res suddenly believe they have a better chance to draw these tags that they will continue applying rather than dropping out? You are correct that there will always be attrition but you forget that every year there are more and more Wyo res that apply for these high demand tags. If this deal passes don't you think this will be broadcast all over the news and more applicants will start applying for these species than are currently applying?

That's about as simple as I can explain this! If this deal passes young and new hunters in Wyo will likely never draw sheep pref pt tags in their lifetime!
 
>I read the Outfitter Council is
>saying the Committee is split
>2/2 and 1 undecided. Hearing
>on Tuesday.

Just heard the same thing over on Bowsite, so the FACT that this is going to pass may not even make it out of Committee!!
 
Exactly right, and determine the path of hunting and find out who's with us and against us.

Will hunting stay in reach of the average sportsmen or is tri-state going to get his way and sell it to the highest bidder?

An epic showdown is coming and it doesn't have anything to do with tag splits...most are too hung up on self interest to recognize it, sadly.
 
One only has to look at European nations, which are much older than ours, to see the coming fate of public land hunting. You can watch it happen almost yearly in Wyoming and many other western states. Wealthy landowners gobbling up section after section of once public land, in some cases owning the majority of one or more countys. Then charging large sums of money for access to that land.

It may not happen in our lifetimes, but our children certainly face the possibility of European style hunting where only the rich, powerful, or connected can hunt.
 
So what your going to do about it?

Whine on an internet board or get with the program to make changes while you can to ensure that hunting stays within reach of the average sportsmen?

I think I know the answer.

Carry on.
 
I have sent a bunch of emails and responses to emails back. I have gotten a fair number of friends to do the same. Really trying to get in there ear to stop this.
 
>I have sent a bunch of
>emails and responses to emails
>back. I have gotten
>a fair number of friends
>to do the same.
>Really trying to get in
>there ear to stop this.
>

If anyone wants to comment on this bill either for or against, here is the link;

http://legisweb.state.wy.us/postcomments/HotlineDisclaimer.aspx

You are limited to 140 characters and you don't have to be a resident to comment - though they might throw it in the trash if you are a NR!

Horniac
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-15 AT 10:21AM (MST)[p]Also hit these people hard with longer emails.

THIS IS A COPY FROM ANOTHER SITE>Brad

I e-mailed the WY Outfitters and Guide Assn. on this bill and they replied very quickly as follows:
"Kyle:

Thank you for the email. We are working diligently to make sure that this bill is defeated. We have a full time lobbyist who is monitoring this bill along with four of our board members who are currently in Cheyenne working on this as well. If you would like to contact the sponsors of this bill and express your concerns directly to them, please do so. Below is their contact information.

Senator Larry Hicks: [email protected]

Senator Paul Barnard: [email protected]

Representative Eric Barlow: [email protected]

Representative Stan Blake: [email protected]

Representative John Freeman: [email protected]

Representative Allen Jaggi: [email protected]

Representative Bunky Loucks: [email protected]

This bill was first introduced last year so we have been working hard to make sure everybody is aware of this bill and the ramifications it will have on the non-resident hunter and the economy for the state of Wyoming. WYOGA established the Wyoming Hunter Defense Fund (WHDF), www.wyominghunterdefensefund.com. Please visit this website as the WHDF was organized to maintain the ability of sportsmen to access their hunting opportunities in Wyoming. The WHDF will work to conserve and protect wildlife habitats and to educate the business community and residents of Wyoming as to the financial contributions made by sportsmen to Wyoming?s economy. Feel free to make a monetary donation to help fight these legislative issues.

Best regards,

Laurie Marcovitz, Administrator

Wyoming Outfitters & Guides Association
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-15 AT 01:13PM (MST)[p]Too bad WYOGA doesn't get their facts in line.

First of all the bill was NOT introduced last session.

WYOGA stretches the truth, the bill last session would have reduced the NR allocation to 10% for ALL species.

This one does nothing of the sort. It only reduces the allocation for msgb to 10%, which is either the same or more than any other Western State.

Worked the Capitol today, I hear good things for the 90/10 split, but you really never know until the committee votes.

One thing for sure, WYOGA will be called out tomorrow and the ramifications, either way, are not going to be positive for WYOGA on future issues.

Political capital is going to be spent tomorrow by WYOGA, they should have stayed out of this one. Its a non-winner for them. Burning bridges and drawing lines...its all it is.

But, hey, I'm all about not getting in the way of others when they start making mistakes.

I like what this bill is doing, no matter the outcome on the bill itself.
 
So big deal, you're trying to say the WYOGA is stretching the truth, so call them out all you want. We could also probably say the same thing the way you're stretching things in the little harm you say it will do monetarily and how it greatly helps all the residents, which is an absolute bunch of bull when in the overall scheme of things the odds of drawing most tags won't go up enough to make a difference to 95% of the applicants. And geez, I could swear you said last week it was FACT that this Bill was going to be enacted! Now by all appearances it's going to swing one way or the other by one vote to nix it or get it onto the floor. Funny how your FACT seems to have now changed, LOL! Even if that swing vote goes your way, it sounds like it's a long way from going to the Governor's desk for signing.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-15 AT 02:21PM (MST)[p]Wow topgun, you've learned a lot in your 67 years on earth.

Every bill has a long uphill crawl to become law, its the way the system is designed to work.

I'm not stretching the truth on anything, there is no way that any fiscal note can be applied to anything other than the loss in fees from 100 tags.

The rest is speculation, nothing more.

Its pretty obvious, that those that chase sheep, moose, goat, muskox, oryx, etc. tags, that we aren't capable of reading draw odds. Yet, despite the worst of odds, we all still apply if there is even the most remote of chances.

Its no different with this bill. NR's can swear up and down that they're going to quite applying in Wyoming...fine. Take your application money to the next state that offers less tags, lower draw odds, and in many cases not even a guarantee of a tag.

Makes total sense to me.

These types of bills separate the guys that are concerned with the long-term health of herds and funding the agencies/wildlife and those that only want to take from the resource to hang another head on the wall.

I look at every single application fee, license I don't use, and tag that I obtain, as a donation to enhance wildlife, wildlife habitat, and hunting opportunities for ALL, as well as the Agencies charged with Management of same.

Residents that live here, pay taxes here, put up with 65mph wind, sit on various wildlife committees, attend public meetings here, donate hours of work to conservation/wildlife, spend their pay checks here...deserve 90% of the msgb tags.

Its not one bit unreasonable, and those really are the facts that matter.

We'll see which side your on when WYOGA flips the special/regular fee from 40/60 to 60/40.

The crocodile tears will be impressive, I'm sure.

You really have no flesh in the game floppy, you just like to run your mouth. Its why you'll always be in the cheap seats, but, its really where you belong.

I'll get my way on this one...always do.
 
Take a look at post #35. Buzz wrote: "Your problem is that you think of yourself first, how you can benefit personally from drawing another tag." Buzz never runs his mouth!
 
I sent my email in support of this legislation to the TRW committee and encourage other residents to do the same. It will be interesting to see if they side with the popular majority or the vocal special interest. Unfortunately, given their track record, my money is on the latter.
 
If passing SF69 means Resident fee increases, that's fine with me, a majority of Residents are in favor of increases anyway.

Easy to say harder to do. I guess you have no low income residents in your state because I'm sure they are just jumping up and down with joy over paying more OF course they shouldn't be hunters if they are are on welfare.
Sure hope none of them are kids.

Residents that live here, pay taxes here, put up with 65mph wind, sit on various wildlife committees, attend public meetings here, donate hours of work to conservation/wildlife, spend their pay checks here...deserve 90% of the msgb tags.

I guess the resident who don't "sit on Various wildlife boards, attend public meeting, and donate hours of work to conservation/wildlife. Will sooner then later be handed the same $hitty end of the stick as the NR sheep guys.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Sebastian,

Quick question, how is that legislation coming along to increase the NR sheep quota in Colorado to 25%?

Let me guess, as per usual, when all is said and done, you'll have said more than you've ever done.
 
Gator, thank you for your well articulated post, the level of thought is over-whelming.


Gator blabbered: Easy to say harder to do. I guess you have no low income residents in your state because I'm sure they are just jumping up and down with joy over paying more OF course they shouldn't be hunters if they are are on welfare. Sure hope none of them are kids.

Not really, a majority of resident hunters here in Wyoming are in favor of Resident fee increases. When hunting is compared to say...things like a tank of fuel, the cost of rifles, the cost of ammo, it becomes apparent that THE cheapest part of the entire hunting equation is the permit. To address your youth concerns, we have reduced priced permits for NR as well as R youth. We also excluded raising youth fees in the last fee increase bill that was introduced in the last session. Of course, if you'd bother to research before you open your soup-cooler, you wouldn't have made yourself look so foolish.

I can not, and will not, lower license fees to free so that those on welfare can hunt. Sure, we have people on welfare, somehow I just don't believe that hunting sheep, moose, goat, and bison is real high on their priority list. In particular with reduced priced cow/calf and doe/fawn tags available.

If a person on welfare has the money to afford a vehicle, a rifle, ammunition, etc. than I would expect they could also come up with the money to afford a tag. There are much bigger stumbling blocks for those on welfare to overcome before they take to the field as hunters, many of the things I already mentioned.

Hunting opportunities are afforded nearly every resident of Wyoming that cares to participate, I will not apologize for my not wanting to give welfare recipients more welfare in the form of my public wildlife.

Somehow, you must believe that hunting wildlife is a right, I can assure you that it is, in fact, a privilege. A privilege afforded us through the graciousness of the majority of the public that doesn't hunt.

Gators continued blabbering: I guess the resident who don't "sit on Various wildlife boards,
attend public meeting, and donate hours of work conservation/wildlife. Will sooner then later be handed the same $hitty end of the stick as the NR sheep guys.

I guess in a round-about, and obtuse way, perhaps you are right. I attended a public meeting last Friday in Laramie regarding herd management, population objectives, and season setting. There were 5 (FIVE) hunters that weren't too busy on a Friday night to comment on proposals that directly impact them as hunters. If Residents want to guide management, they sure have an awful funny way of showing it. Last I checked, to be part of the process, you have to be engaged and have the gumption to get off the couch. Very few do.

The plus side to that, is for those that care to do the basic minimums, they get their voice heard and have a lot of influence. Been there, done that, and did it even today in Cheyenne. WHY? Because I showed up with an idea that had merit, the TRW committee agreed, and my amendment is in the bill.

Hunter apathy is a huge issue, and I see it regularly...everyone bit ches, and nobody shows up to change their lot in hunting related issues.

If the average R and NR feels like they have been handed the "$hitty end of the stick"...well, I can point them to the nearest mirror to help them understand why they are holding that "$hitty stick".

Its pretty apparent from your post, that you ought to pay attention to your tag line, as you most surely have not gone the extra mile and are right in the center of the apathetic hunter crowd.



>"I have found if you go
>the extra mile it's Never
>crowded".
>>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
A lot of wine and dine spent on this one? You think? Maybe not!

Controversial bills most often have a hidden agenda.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-15 AT 04:58PM (MST)[p]Buzz, didn't you hear....Colo isn't a sheep state it's an elk and deer state! Colo offers unlimited number of elk tags to nonres in OTC units and 40% of elk, deer, and antelope tags in most limited units to nonres. Colo seems like a pretty nonres friendly state to me? I should be a prideful,wanna-be politician like Buzz...I know how to run circles around any question!
 
Junior, Buzz has a hidden agenda....drawing another sheep tag and posting a pic of himself and ram on this website!....so he can rub it in all of the nonres face that have been paying pref pt and application fees for up to the last 20 years!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-19-15 AT 06:14PM (MST)[p]BuzzH: "These types of bills separate the guys that are concerned with the long-term health of herds and funding the agencies/wildlife and those that only want to take from the resource to hang another head on the wall.

***BS! This Bill has nothing to do with any such thing and you're just flapping your gums again, LOL! You're taking tags from people just because of where they live and by doing that funds are going to drop unless you figure out a way to quickly replace them because of the huge gap between resident and NR fees. Seems you forgot who provides the majority of fees that the G&F takes in every year. Seems as if you would think of the game animals and funding first and have that funding in place BEFORE the tag allocation changes!

BuzzH: "I look at every single application fee, license I don't use, and tag that I obtain, as a donation to enhance wildlife, wildlife habitat, and hunting opportunities for ALL, as well as the Agencies charged with Management of same."

***It appears you figure that you're the only one doing that with that stupid remark. One of our NR tags is more than most everything you pay in fees in a year added together. That, as you say, is FACT!

BuzzH: "Residents that live here, pay taxes here, put up with 65mph wind, sit on various wildlife committees, attend public meetings here, donate hours of work to conservation/wildlife, spend their pay checks here...deserve 90% of the msgb tags. Its not one bit unreasonable, and those really are the facts that matter."

***No argument there IF it had been that way from the start and everyone in the game knew that it wasn't going to change. Any time changes are made in a system after it's started someone will usually get screwed. That is FACT!

BuzzH: "We'll see which side your on when WYOGA flips the special/regular fee from 40/60 to 60/40."

***Just because we've stated that we have to go along with the WYOGA on this because they are all the NR has to defeat this doesn't mean we are in love with them. You know darn well where we'll all be if they try to reverse that split!

BuzzH: "The crocodile tears will be impressive, I'm sure."

***I'm not going to cry over anything because I was smart enough not to get into any of these schemes where it would take more years than a normal lifetime to draw a tag! It's a damn shame that these schemes are perpetrated on the public, but that's the way it is and there are obviously many thousands of people that can't figure out the simplest math to know they have no chance of ever drawing a tag and yet still keep throwing their money away.

BuzzH: "You really have no flesh in the game floppy, you just like to run your mouth. Its why you'll always be in the cheap seats, but, its really where you belong."

***See the above comment, as I'm not in the stupid games that so many people are playing and have no chance to win. Your comments throughout this post just add credence to what everyone already knows and that's the fact that you're the biggest egotistical Narcissist windbag of anyone on any hunting website out there, LOL! Must be nice to be #1 at something in life even if it is being a jackass, LOL! One question---How were you able to do a lot of lobbying in Cheyenne today like you mentioned when all the Government buildings should have been closed for the Holiday today?

BuzzH: "I'll get my way on this one...always do."

***In your egotistical, warped mind I'm sure you feel you do, LOL! Sure is funny now that your Fact that this Bill was sure to pass is not so sure now and you're coming up with more BS reasons to try to cover your azz if it fails!!! It's also funny that in one post even though only 550 people were polled and possibly 63% +/-4.9% error rate were in favor that allows you to say the majority of residents favor that increase, LOL! Then you come right back in a post and complain that apathy is so bad amongst residents that only 5 people showed up for a meeting you attended. Maybe most that didn't attend knew you were going! I'll bet the majority of those 5 that were there are in favor of a fee increase and that probably also means the entire state is ready to roll over and open their pockets, LOL!
 
>BuzzH why come on here and
>get everyone all push out
>of shape it doesn't make
>any sense?


Because that's how a Narcissist gets their rocks off!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-15 AT 02:58AM (MST)[p]"I think I know the answer.

Carry on."




Lol no...no you don't, internet tough guy.

Beu63sf.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-15 AT 06:59AM (MST)[p]Senate File 69: = DOA?

What's the agenda?

If this doesn't pass, what message is being sent? How will the message be portrayed by the non-resident?
The Ramifications are endless on this one.
 
Word on the street now is that the 2 Committee members that were going to vote Yea have changed their minds after being advised of the huge amount of revenue the G&F may lose when a lot of NRs quit buying PPs and drop out. So now it looks like the sure "FACT" that this would pass may go down 0-5 in Committee after the actual hearing today!
 
The huge amount of revenue the G&F may lose when a lot of NRs quit buying PPs and drop out.

Ramifications!

This may happen either way!
 
Another FACT---One of the two people on Committee that have changed from Yea to Nay was one of the Bill sponsors, LOL!
 
You have to be thankful for common sense in today's world.

Lets hope the language nerds are exposed for the lack of!
 
We can all be happy, as NR hunters, if this doesn't pass and we can all feel really smug for taking pot-shots at Buzz but the FACT is that the horse is out of the barn.
My best guess is that this 90/10 will pass sometime. There's simply too much momentum and too many residents who want to decrease NR tags and increase Res tags (even though it doesn't really make mathematical sense and everyone knows it).
This looming change doesn't feel right to me but I don't blame the residents either. Hunting, by nature, is a deeply personal yet selfish sport and we are a selfish lot!
Good luck to all in the drawings but a little added luck to me. ha
Zeke
 
Zeke---The horse may be out of the barn, but right now it looks like it may be getting it's azz kicked, LOL! If it was anyone but you know who and his puppet coming up with that FACT that this Bill would pass and that he always gets what he wants, this wouldn't be nearly the victory to celebrate that it may be if it goes down!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-15 AT 01:15PM (MST)[p]>Just saw posted it was defeated!!!!!
> 1 aye, 4 nay


Yep, it sure was and now on to other Bills that need to be looked at and defeated. I'm hearing from a MM member that there is now a Bill HBO149 to reverse the 60/40 regular price/special price NR license structure to 40/60 for deer, elk, and antelope and the WYOGA is behind it. That had already been mentioned as possible/probable by our Laramie guru and will be tough because there will probably be no residents backing the NRs on this one. It's obviously strictly to help the high rollers that can pay outfitters more money for guided hunts draw a bigger percentage of the tags available. The average Joe may get screwed on this one because there are plenty out there with the money to go to the head of the line with no attention paid to anyone but themselves, as can be seen by how many put in for that split the way it is now at 60/40. Money, money, money, is the name of the game nowadays gentlemen and unfortunately it's not going to get any better as the years go by.

Edit: I can't find that Bill Number anywhere in the Legislative List that's on the Wyo.gov website or any others dealing with a reversal of the 60/40.
 
Remember only 12% of Wyoming residents bought tags last year. Given that the state of Wyoming owns the wildlife. Right now with all the funding problems facing the game and fish dept it would be a good time to consider going to the same split Colorado has for deer and elk i.e., 35% for nonres and 65% for res. This would nearly double the economic benefits to the state from hunters (over 100 million dollars). Colorado does this with nearly ten times the population. The non hunting majority in Wyoming would vote for this economic boost from their wildlife. And Wyoming res hunters will still be able to get all the tags they need to fill freezers.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-15 AT 01:19PM (MST)[p]Nice win to those that were opposed the 90/10.

Zeke has it right, this isn't a sprint, its a marathon, we're on about mile 1.

The testimony was full of holes, half-truths, and in some cases flat out lies. Lots of speculation as well.

I will give Senator Hicks a lot of credit, he presented the bill, along with the facts and figures, very well. His skills at the Capitol have improved greatly.

We will be working with Senator Hicks to introduce the bill until it passes.

Since, as many have claimed, these bills are all about funding, there is going to be legislation introduced later today to help promote more first time NR applicants to the moose and sheep draws. Its a great idea that will increase revenue to the GF Department as well as bring fairness to those in the lower point pools. There will be a huge spike in first time applicants, when they are given 50% of the NR allocation of moose, sheep, goat, and bison tags, bringing in much needed funding. Its also not very fair to favor those in the higher point pools over those in lower pools.

Since my NR buddies all have plenty of money, I think its only fair to look out for them, as well as the Department funding. I will be testifying in favor of the 60/40 split for SP vs. Reg priced fees that the outfitters have introduced. Its solid legislation that increases funding, and will give my family and friends higher draw odds in the Antelope, Deer, and Elk. They will draw more tags, more often, and I will be able to spend more time hunting with them.

The funding issue and everything having to do with money is a double-edged sword. That blade is about to apply a cut both ways.
 
That might make sense economically, but it sure wouldn't make for a quality hunt if there was a huge influx of NRs and as much orange in WY as there was the one time I hunted CO! It's basically the premium tags that are argued about because there are plenty of good tags for deer, antelope, and especially elk.
 
Buzz,
This sounds like you've done a 180. It's completely contrary to most previous discussions that we've had.
You've previously lambasted wyoga, sfw and Hicks as being self-serving, selfish jerks who couldn't fight their way out of a paper bag yet now you're onboard with every single issue.
Now it appears that you've aligned yourself with the very groups and issues of which you tried to blame only them while keeping your hands clean.
A guy can change his mind, I guess, but please don't try to pass off their issues as poor ideas when you're in lock-step.
Zeke
 
Zeke,

Its all about the money...has nothing to do anymore with fairness.

Every group at the Capitol, with the exception of maybe 2, are 100% committed to only worrying about MONEY and GF revenue.

If that's the game that wants to be played, then just WTF do you want me to do?

How I am supposed the cherry pick the times when fairness and equity should trump money issues?

The Department is screaming about not having funding, the outfitters are screaming that dropping 78 tags will bankrupt them, and you want me to differentiate based on what?

You don't want your allocation of NR msgb tags cut, due to funding, fine. I'll support keeping the 75-25 split, due to funding.

But, don't expect me to turn around and feather your nest to preserve your 40-60 split on special-regular, just to save you a buck, when the WYGFD can increase revenue by me supporting a 60-40 split.

That is the problem that we all face, you cant have it both ways. You either make an ask of me to support DIY, average joe hunter, and support me in those efforts, or we give it all the money interests.

Most here are too blinded by selfish interests, and will actually SUPPORT a group that is kicking them in the sack, to preserve 78 tags.

In an even bigger piece of hypocrisy, some expect me to show up and burn political capital to defeat a bill that will raise GF revenue? Bullchit, I wont do it. This isn't a one-way street, you help me, I'll help you. Kick me in the sack, expect a kick right back.

This bill today, showed me pretty clearly who is with average sportsmen and who is again' us. Three friggin' people showed up for the average guy, the rest are only worried about money.

Its that simple. I have received ZERO support from NR hunters on issues that impact Residents and I am DONE fighting for NR's that wont support Residents.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-15 AT 02:30PM (MST)[p]Now who's shedding the big tears oh wise one whose FACT that this was damn near a slam dunk just got dumped down the crapper! If you were as influential as your big ego thinks it is, it should have been a 4-1 or 5-0 vote to pass it out of Committee. You and your "selfish interests" BS about everyone else but you are no better than any of the rest of the public trying to look out for their own good. It's just the nature of things and when we have to fight the WYGOA next on the tag reversal they want we'll fight it without you and your big ego. Big Deal, as it's obvious you don't have the clout you think you do!!! We may lose and then again we may not, and that's a FACT because you are correct about one thing and it's about money that is the name of the game and it's a damn shame that's what it has come to nowadays!!! Do whatever you have to do, but please get off your pulpit before you fall and break your fuggin neck!
 
Did you want us to support a 50% reduction in sgmbg tags? really?
What are the other issues that we can help residents with?
ALMOST any other issue I'll be there for you in any way I can to help the Res and NR hunter.
I'm not made of money but I do understand it take funding for the G&F for us ALL to enjoy what we've been enjoying. I understand hunting needs be a financial sacrifice for the NR hunter. I don't expect something for nothing but when Points are cheapened, by any means, it hurts those of us who have expressed the most interest over the longest period.
It just seems like you're now going out of your way to hammer the chit out of the NR hunter when it's actually only a couple guys that you should be bi tch-slapping.
How can we help?
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-15 AT 02:41PM (MST)[p]Zeke; it's very obvious where he's coming from now with all the additional fumes he's venting and how he'll now try to screw the top PP pool people and try for a 50/50 PP/Random draw when he was just of the opposite thought yesterday. He's like a big baby that is stomping up and down and throwing a hissy fit because he didn't get his way and/or dropped his sucker in the dirt. Screw him because it's obvious he's a politician and will go whichever way the tide is flowing at any particular time of the day or night to win!
 
Sorry Buzz I'm confused, now you say you would support the special $ tags going to 60% instead of the current 40%?
 
I thought the 90/10 split was the right thing to do for the residents. How you get there from 75/25 is the problem. I believe some discussions needed to happen before the Bill was introduced to create some sort of game plan instead of just chopping off the top point guys.
 
Topgun,

You're 100% wrong, a majority of sportsmens groups here in Wyoming are only worried about funding the GF. Its just a fact.

I cant be the 1 guy that is looking out for equity and the average hunter, until the GF is fully funded. I just cant do it, and no other group is willing to do it either.

So, no matter what legislation is introduced, as long as it doesn't TAKE resident opportunity, my hands are tied to support it.

Exactly why I will support the 60/40 flop on special VS regular tag fee structure. It will raise more revenue and that's the focus.

Welcome to the new world of $1k elk tags, $600 deer tags, and $500 antelope tags.

If any of you NR's want to show up to fight WYOGA on this, theres an interstate that runs East/West called I-80. It will take you to Cheyenne, where you can fight your own battle.

I'll be the guy on the other side of the aisle supporting getting the GF fully funded.

See you there!
 
better not be my senators that didn't support sf69. They will get a tounge lashing. Its going to happen just a matter of time.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-20-15 AT 04:03PM (MST)[p]Zeke,

Realize this isn't personal, its just business. Its what the NR and R hunters have allowed hunting to become.

Its no longer about the sport, its about the money.

BTW, you didn't expect to kick Residents in the sack and then expect a hug afterwards...did you?

Compromise is giving something up to get something in return...no more one-way street.
 

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Big Wyoming Buck for Buckfever34
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Wyoming Hunting Guides & Outfitters

Badger Creek Outfitters

Offering elk, deer and pronghorn hunts on several privately owned ranches.

Urge 2 Hunt

We focus on trophy elk, mule deer, antelope and moose hunts and take B&C bucks most years.

J & J Outfitters

Offering quality fair-chase hunts for trophy mule deer, elk, and moose in Wyoming.


Yellowstone Horse Rentals - Western Wyoming Horses
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