Proposed Updated Draw System

[RRCowboyStar]

This will be voted on during the Nov 14-15 meeting. Lots of change is coming!

16.DrawChanges_Issue_Main.pdf

cpw.widen.net

 

[Mallardsx2]

These changes will help point creep, but they needed to be further reaching on taking peoples points IMHO.

 

[Simpleton]

These may help point creep in some areas, but for the top end units (assuming everyone understands the draw and doesn't burn 20 points on a second choice tag) you will be pulling half as many top point holders. Thus pushing the max points required for the preference draw higher, at twice the pace.

I don't oppose it, but there just isn't a good answer short of taking points if you acquire a tag (no matter the method of acquisition).

 

[vansterdam123]

...Thus pushing the max points required for the preference draw higher, at twice the pace.
...

Exactly, preference points systems don't work. By going 50/50 preference/bonus, CPW is only going to make the creep worse on the preference side of the draw.

They will do this for a few years and then scrap preference points altogether when they figure this out.

 

[Togwotee]

Preference point systems work, you just have to have the points.

I like it the way it is. once I burn my 27 elk points you pull the rug out from under all those who've paid their dues. less max point tags means more point, creep end of story.

 

[vansterdam123]

Preference point systems work, you just have to have the points.

I like it the way it is. once I burn my 27 elk points you pull the rug out from under all those who've paid their dues. less max point tags means more point, creep end of story.

You have 27 elk points, so of course you want to see the preference systems remain.

With the preference tags cut to 50% of the total, you're about to get a big dose of the point creep that proves preference systems don't work (for anything but the lowest of demand hunts).

Hopefully you have a plan to settle for a lesser tag and get out of the game prior to the change to 50/50 preference/bonus.

 

[ORIONTHEHUNTER]

How about having to pick between moose, sheep, and goat now that is a kick to the sack to a lot of people especially residents

 

[Danny_Ocean]

Well, I know which species I’m going with on the “pick one” option.

 

[JBHunt]

And just like that we lost our chance at reissue tags

 

[Mallardsx2]

And just like that we lost our chance at reissue tags

A reissue tag worth 25 points in the primary draw should have NEVER ended up in the hands of someone with 0 points in the first place under the current system of preference points.

At least now, these tags are burning people’s points instead of being given out for free.

Reducing preference creep was one of the items that the dpwg was supposed to do in the first place. They barely managed to scratch the surface on that.

 

[Bluehair]

How about having to pick between moose, sheep, and goat now that is a kick to the sack to a lot of people especially residents

I was thinking we got ****** in the neck.

I would be pissed if I had a pile of points (which means you’re old) for the big 3. It’ll damn sure slow the point growth for them.

I am skeptical that the odds are statistically identical with the “bonus” draw. I’ll let the nerds argue over that one.

But I do believe that my odds for a moose tag are going up next year if they adopt this.

 

[diablo]

“All recommendations will be discussed and considered by the Commission in a three-step process (November, January and March), with final consideration and voting at the March 2025 Commission Meeting”

“Adopted policies/regulations will not be implemented until the 2028 draws in order to allow time for draw reprogramming”

 

[Mallardsx2]

“All recommendations will be discussed and considered by the Commission in a three-step process (November, January and March), with final consideration and voting at the March 2025 Commission Meeting”

“Adopted policies/regulations will not be implemented until the 2028 draws in order to allow time for draw reprogramming”

"Operation warp speed" as brought to you by the CPW as per usual. lmfao.

I did get a chuckle out of the colored lady who sits on the commission mentioning that there "wasn't enough time for public comment" on these topics and Haskett said that there had been public comment for MONTHS. The lady said she had not seen that. lol What a joke.

 

[txhunter58]

“The first choice preference point only hunt code for each species is eliminated under both alternatives”

In some ways I like this, but one consequence is that there will be MORE people applying for hard to draw tags every year, decreasing odds in the bonus draw for people wanting to actually draw that year.

Before there was a PP code in CO, what did you do when you couldn’t go that year but wanted to get a point? You put in for an impossible to draw tag. That is what people who just want a point will do for their first choice.

Example, in Utah I wanted to draw an elk tag most of all, so I put in for Henry’s deer every year instead of a tag I had a chance of drawing. Figured if lightening struck and I got that tag, I would go deer hunting. And I’m sure I’m the only one who did that. And it screwed with everyone’s odds.

 

[Bluehair]

“All recommendations will be discussed and considered by the Commission in a three-step process (November, January and March), with final consideration and voting at the March 2025 Commission Meeting”

“Adopted policies/regulations will not be implemented until the 2028 draws in order to allow time for draw reprogramming”

Well ****, I guess they go down next year.

 

[oldmossback]

I am sure this "BONUS" will mean significantly increased prices to apply? Basically like the "super" in Wyoming

 

[diablo]

It’s about time they limited the number of ram tags you can draw in a lifetime. I met an old dude on my moose hunt this year who claimed to have drawn 4 ram tags in CO!

 

[Danny_Ocean]

It’s about time they limited the number of ram tags you can draw in a lifetime. I met an old dude on my moose hunt this year who claimed to have drawn 4 ram tags in CO!

Its the luck of the draw, what unit you select and what weapon you use. I don't consider myself very old, but I've had 2 ram tags, 3 goat tags, a bull moose tag. I hope to pick up a cow moose next year, and try for one more ram tag. I got side tracked on the Desert ram, but I feel a guy actually has the chance to draw a Rocky.


I know some old school archers that were drawing S32 when it was archery only every other year or at least it seemed like it back in the day. I know they had 4-5 tags at least.

 

[Crampy]

First, that CPW commission doesn’t have the knowledge/courage to institute some of the good stuff in the DPWG recommendations.

Second, the preference point flooded mess in CO was allowed to exist for so long that it will take a generation for any changes made to drain the swamp.

 

[TKMulePacker]

Reply

First, that CPW commission doesn’t have the knowledge/courage to institute some of the good stuff in the DPWG recommendations.

Second, the preference point flooded mess in CO was allowed to exist for so long that it will take a generation for any changes made to drain the swamp.

Colorado Draw Process reform is on Trumps first 100 days list, watch the F out.

 

[jims]

Two things not included-

1). Pay up front

2). Those that purchase landowner tags burn points

 

[Deercy]

I like Colorado's system. I should see how many animals I've killed on leftovers, 2nd choice, landowner vouchers, and low point units. My main area for elk is 100 percent in 2nd choice. I have a stack of elk points, while hunting and killing 9 elk in 10 years. Antelope and deer go as fast as possible. The returns get under my skin a bit, but this state has crazy amounts of opportunity under the current configuration.

 

[Thill]

How about having to pick between moose, sheep, and goat now that is a kick to the sack to a lot of people especially residents

I can't wait to share this with my buddies that are in there late 50/60's and each have 20+ points for each species and have been applying before the weighted point systems came out.

You should be able to hear them scream F- you from anywhere in the state.

 

[txhunter58]

Unless I misunderstand how these species tags are allocated, the top point guys odds will go up!

Let’s say you have 100 guys all with 25 points and currently they are all putting in for all species.

Now they have to chose, so theoretically only 33 apps for each species. making less people you are competing with for that species. I would rather have a 1/33 chance than 1/100

Wish Utah would change the system back to only being able to apply for one species. I would draw a deer tag much quicker.

 

[Thill]

Unless I misunderstand how these species tags are allocated, the top point guys odds will go up!

Let’s say you have 100 guys all with 25 points and currently they are all putting in for all species.

Now they have to chose, so theoretically only 33 apps for each species. making less people you are competing with for that species. I would rather have a 1/33 chance than 1/100

Wish Utah would change the system back to only being able to apply for one species. I would draw a deer tag much quicker.

I suspect most would put in for Sheep, then of course you only had 50% of available tags under the new system. So if they issued 2 tags, only one would make it the top point pool.

100 applicants normally applying for 2 tags 2/100 chance is now 1/100 chance

It will take a few years for any real patterns to show up.

 

[Horniac]

I suspect most would put in for Sheep, then of course you only had 50% of available tags under the new system. So if they issued 2 tags, only one would make it the top point pool.

100 applicants normally applying for 2 tags 2/100 chance is now 1/100 chance

It will take a few years for any real patterns to show up.

The way I read it is that they are no longer using preference points but converting them to bonus points for MSG. So no preference point tags just another name in the hat for each point with a minimum of 3 points to get into the draw? Similar to NV but not squared and no longer that worthless weighted system.


"A 100% bonus draw will be used for all Rocky Mountain bighorn
sheep, mountain goat and moose license hunt codes ( *see
appendix A for description of draw types). This new draw method
will replace the previous weighted draw for these species."

Horniac

 

[Crampy]

…
Now they have to chose, so theoretically only 33 apps for each species. making less people you are competing with for that species. I would rather have a 1/33 chance than 1/100

Making people pick one (amongst MSG) does absolutely nothing to “improve odds”.
Today, Almost everyone applies for all Three, MSG.

By picking one species, your odds go up for that species by the exact same amount they went down for the other two.

You are just concentrating your luck on to your species of choice.

WY recently thought this “Idaho model” of choosing one of the three was a panacea. Stats guy had to come in and explain it to the dimwits on their commission.

 

[Crampy]

The way I read it is that they are no longer using preference points but converting them to bonus points for MSG. So no preference point tags just another name in the hat for each point with a minimum of 3 points to get into the draw? Similar to NV but not squared and no longer that worthless weighted system.


"A 100% bonus draw will be used for all Rocky Mountain bighorn
sheep, mountain goat and moose license hunt codes ( *see
appendix A for description of draw types). This new draw method
will replace the previous weighted draw for these species."

Horniac

All they are doing is getting rid of their 3 point floor for MSG.

CPW’s goofy “weighted points” for MSG was just a confusing way of doing simple Bonus points (linear, non exponent). The exact same result is obtained with both systems and CPW has admitted this.

See here: https://www.toprut.com/news/2019/02/26/colorado-weighted-point-system/

 

[diablo]

Today, Almost everyone applies for all Three, MSG.

I would have thought the same thing but only about 35% applied this year for all three according to the doc linked above:

“In 2024, ~46% (approx. 33,000) of combined sheep, goat and moose applicants only applied for one species. These applicants would not be impacted whatsoever with this proposed change.
~35% (approx. 25,000) of combined sheep, goat and moose applicants applied for all
three species.
~19% (approx. 13,000) applied for two of the three species (sheep, goat, moose)”

 

[Horniac]

All they are doing is getting rid of their 3 point floor for MSG.

CPW’s goofy “weighted points” for MSG was just a confusing way of doing simple Bonus points (linear, non exponent). The exact same result is obtained with both systems and CPW has admitted this.

See here: https://www.toprut.com/news/2019/02/26/colorado-weighted-point-system/

Aren't they just getting rid of the 3 post floor just for antlerless MSG but keeping it for bulls, rams, mountain goat?

"Applicants must hold a minimum of three species-specific
preference points to be eligible to draw a ram Rocky Mountain
bighorn sheep, bull moose, or either-sex mountain goat license."

Agree on the weighted system not improving odds over a simple bonus point system and as you said CPW has admitted this as well:

"*This is not exactly how CPW’s weighted
draw works, however the draw odds are statistically identical."

Horniac

 

[khunter]

It’s about time they limited the number of ram tags you can draw in a lifetime. I met an old dude on my moose hunt this year who claimed to have drawn 4 ram tags in CO!

Nice for the old dude! I have only drawn three ram, a ewe, two mt. goat and 4 moose.

 

[elks96]

The best system all the way around is the random draw on all species for everyone every year. With the msg all being once in a lifetime. Until then it is just a stupid game where we realize that most never get anything good and those close to making it get screwed every time the system changes…

 

[jims]

I am somewhat shocked that the CPW is not going to the root of the pref pt leaping problem with a few easy solutions.. There are 3 things that would significantly prevent point leaping that aren't on the CPW's agenda:

1) Anyone issued a tag burns points. That includes -landowner, 2nd choice, issue-after, and leftover tags. This gives hunters incentive to burn rather than build points. Those with low points will likely have great opportunity to hunt on a regular basis. Those that want to build points will be out of luck until they burn their points.

2) Return to paying up front to apply. Applicant numbers leaped the year the CPW pulled the requirement of applicants paying upfront. My guess is that this has been a headache for the CPW dealing with those that haven't paid for their tags prior to the deadline and re-issuing tags that aren't paid for. This would total eliminate that nonsense.

2) Go to all draw for elk. Elk hunters that draw tags will burn rather than build pref pts. The CPW will finally be able to manage elk and hunter numbers.

 

[Bluehair]

I’m too lazy to throw the challenge flag on all us slide rule statisticians, but I believe my odds for moose will go up in 2028.

It’s a step in the right direction finally. Lets see if they have the balls to pass it.

 

[jims]

It doesn't appear that changing from weighted to bonus pts is going to do anything. If you didn't look at Crampy's link above, I've attached it below.

The system that benefits those that apply more years, but every applicant still has a chance to draw tags is squared bonus pts used in Nevada. Take a look at the Toprut link below.

The link also shows draw odds with no point system. This would be the clear choice if you never want to draw a high demand limited tag in your lifetime! Everyone has the same 0.01% chance to draw though!

Toprut - Western Big Game Hunting Reference

Draw odds, harvest data, interactive maps and more - Toprut is the most open and accessible western big game hunting research site ever created.

www.toprut.com

 

[Bluehair]

It doesn't appear that changing from weighted to bonus pts is going to do anything. If you didn't look at Crampy's link above, I've attached it below.

The system that benefits those that apply more years, but every applicant still has a chance to draw tags is squared bonus pts used in Nevada. Take a look at the Toprut link below:

Toprut - Western Big Game Hunting Reference

Draw odds, harvest data, interactive maps and more - Toprut is the most open and accessible western big game hunting research site ever created.

www.toprut.com

In my case (moose is the only one I have pp’s for), It will eliminate whatever percentage of people who will choose to apply for sheep or goats instead.

Good for me,but bad for you if you are old and have points for all 3. Those are the loud f bombs mentioned earlier.

And I will take 30 chances in the hat over 1 chance manipulated 30 times every time.

 

[jims]

You can tell I am peeved when the bold print and exclamation marks start coming out!

Getting rid of the 3 pt floor is the dumbest move I can think of next to eliminating paying upfront! Yep, guess how many additional applicants will suddenly apply when they see they have a chance to draw a tag the first year of applying!

Stupid, stupid move!

Considering the current system, take a look at how many applicants are on the floor with 0 to 2 pts and how many are dumped into 3 pt pool each year compared to how many tags are issued.

I can guarantee that applicant numbers will leap if the floor is removed! Did I say STUPID?

The only benefit I can see is the CPW will make more $ by having more SMG applicants! Another ploy for more applicants to generate more $ at the expense of point leaping to hunters! INSANE!

 

[Thill]

Jims - They are not going to revert back to paying the fees upfront, I was part of some prior focus groups and we were sternly told this would not happen. With declining hunter enrollment, requesting all fees be paid upfront, can place a financial burden on families. Where as just paying an application fee can allow a family from potentially paying/loaning the CPW thousands of dollars to which the family knows the odds would not be good to draw many or any of the tags.
I know this blew up the MSG tag applicants when they started this, but I can't imagine sitting down with kids and telling them they sorry kids - but mom and dad don't have enough money to loan the CPW for the next 6-8 weeks when we know what are chances of the drawing the tag will be.

Before this was explained to me, I was mad that the upfront fees were dropped. We need to keep encouraging applicants to apply not telling them they can only apply if they are financially successful and able to afford it.

Requiring a family of 4 residents to front (Deer/Elk/Antelope) fees can easily top $6-800. And this doesn't even account for MSG or any nonresidents.

I am tired of over-crowded public lands, but I hate to see public hunting or applications fees become a financial barrier, when if you look at the statistics you know that it will take 2-3 years for you or any your family members to draw this tag.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[txhunter58]

I am somewhat shocked that the CPW is not going to the root of the pref pt leaping problem with a few easy solutions.. There are 3 things that would significantly prevent point leaping that aren't on the CPW's agenda:

1) Anyone issued a tag burns points. That includes -landowner, 2nd choice, issue-after, and leftover tags. This gives hunters incentive to burn rather than build points. Those with low points will likely have great opportunity to hunt on a regular basis. Those that want to build points will be out of luck until they burn their points.

2) Return to paying up front to apply. Applicant numbers leaped the year the CPW pulled the requirement of applicants paying upfront. My guess is that this has been a headache for the CPW dealing with those that haven't paid for their tags prior to the deadline and re-issuing tags that aren't paid for. This would total eliminate that nonsense.

2) Go to all draw for elk. Elk hunters that draw tags will burn rather than build pref pts. The CPW will finally be able to manage elk and hunter numbers.

Options 2 and 3 would cost the dept too much money. They are already losing going to 75/25. They want to stop the bleeding. Not saying it’s right, just stating facts. Its only a matter of time before elk tags go all draw, but not this round. Baby steps

 

[txhunter58]

Jims - They are not going to revert back to paying the fees upfront, I was part of some prior focus groups and we were sternly told this would not happen. With declining hunter enrollment, requesting all fees be paid upfront, can place a financial burden on families. Where as just paying an application fee can allow a family from potentially paying/loaning the CPW thousands of dollars to which the family knows the odds would not be good to draw many or any of the tags.
I know this blew up the MSG tag applicants when they started this, but I can't imagine sitting down with kids and telling them they sorry kids - but mom and dad don't have enough money to loan the CPW for the next 6-8 weeks when we know what are chances of the drawing the tag will be.

Before this was explained to me, I was mad that the upfront fees were dropped. We need to keep encouraging applicants to apply not telling them they can only apply if they are financially successful and able to afford it.

Requiring a family of 4 residents to front (Deer/Elk/Antelope) fees can easily top $6-800. And this doesn't even account for MSG or any nonresidents.

I am tired of over-crowded public lands, but I hate to see public hunting or applications fees become a financial barrier, when if you look at the statistics you know that it will take 2-3 years for you or any your family members to draw this tag.

Just my 2 cents.

So charge adults the fees up front, but not youth.

While I think they have a point, I think they didn’t say the “whole truth”. That they would lose all those app fees from people who dropped out.

I actually think it’s more of a problem for people who apply to multiple states than not being able to float that money on a credit card for couple months if they only apply to CO.

 

[jims]

The 3 things I mentioned above will decrease point leaping to the highest degree.

Do these come at a price? Yes, any hunter that draws a tag burns points. Yes, it may mean waiting to hunt less crowded conditions if elk goes to all draw, but the CPW will finally be able to manage elk herd numbers and hunting pressure. Yes, it may mean fronting $ for a few months.

There are obvious trade-offs between revenue and pref pts leaping. Not fronting the tag fees to apply is huge and has contributed to more point leap than all other factors or new proposals combined.

If a hunter can't front the $, why should they apply? When my kids were growing up, I was financially strapped but always found ways to fork out these fees for a few months. This $ is ultimately refunded if not drawn.

If you seriously think about it, the CPW was concerned about youth and families upfronting the tag fee money to apply. Do you think they should share the same concern about youth paying full prices for SGM tags if youth do happen to draw tags? To stay consistent with their concern, shouldn't they drop the price of youth SGM tags?

The CPW could adopt lower prices for youth SMG tags so families can afford to apply their kids for up front tag fees and pay lower price for these tags when drawn. Fronting tag fees will overall minimize point leap for these species more than anything else on their agenda.

 

[Thill]

So charge adults the fees up front, but not youth.

While I think they have a point, I think they didn’t say the “whole truth”. That they would lose all those app fees from people who dropped out.

I actually think it’s more of a problem for people who apply to multiple states than not being able to float that money on a credit card for couple months if they only apply to CO.

I could certainly live with the idea of charging adults up front, and allowing youth a token application fee.

 

[Thill]

The 3 things I mentioned above will decrease point leaping to the highest degree.

Do these come at a price? Yes, any hunter that draws a tag burns points. Yes, it may mean waiting to hunt less crowded conditions if elk goes to all draw, but the CPW will finally be able to manage elk herd numbers and hunting pressure. Yes, it may mean fronting $ for a few months.

There are obvious trade-offs between revenue and pref pts leaping. Not fronting the tag fees to apply is huge and has contributed to more point leap than all other factors or new proposals combined.

If a hunter can't front the $, why should they apply? When my kids were growing up, I was financially strapped but always found ways to fork out these fees for a few months. This $ is ultimately refunded if not drawn.

If you seriously think about it, the CPW was concerned about youth and families upfronting the tag fee money to apply. Do you think they should share the same concern about youth paying full prices for SGM tags if youth do happen to draw tags? To stay consistent with their concern, shouldn't they drop the price of youth SGM tags?

The CPW could adopt lower prices for youth SMG tags so families can afford to apply their kids for up front tag fees and pay lower price for these tags when drawn. Fronting tag fees will overall minimize point leap for these species more than anything else on their agenda.

Good points on these matters.
As far as the MSG stuff, I think under the current and even the proposals being considered, -the likelyhood of drawing any of these tags it is so slim in most cases that you probably need as many chances/years/applications to improve your chances.

As we have discussed many times before, the losers in most of the changes are the higher point holders and non-residents.

 

[Crampy]

Jims - They are not going to revert back to paying the fees upfront, I was part of some prior focus groups and we were sternly told this would not happen.

Good. Charging up front is inefficient and archaic.

The only reason anybody wants it is to buy there way in to better odds.

 

[Togwotee]

You have 27 elk points, so of course you want to see the preference systems remain.

With the preference tags cut to 50% of the total, you're about to get a big dose of the point creep that proves preference systems don't work (for anything but the lowest of demand hunts).

Hopefully you have a plan to settle for a lesser tag and get out of the game prior to the change to 50/50 preference/bonus.

if's unfair as hell to jerk the rug out from under people who've paid their dues and their money for decades because some whiney little biatch's want to cut to the front of the line. but it's happened in WY so I'm sure it can happen in CO.

Yes, I have every intention of burning them on the best tag I figure I can draw right away. I don't have another 27 years to play.

 

[Crampy]

Aren't they just getting rid of the 3 point floor just for antlerless MSG but keeping it for bulls, rams, mountain goat?

Yes. Thank you for the correction.

 

[Utah400Elk]

Does anybody know when the proposed changes might take affect? I am sitting in 25 elk points and this will definitely determine when and how I use them. I wanted to go 61 archery elk in the next three-four years but I might need to change it up.

 

[Togwotee]

It says 2028, but I'm not sure if that's the final word. at least that would give us some time, unlike WY where you go to sleep on the 5-yard line and wake up needing a spotting scope to see the goal post.

Those at the very top of the point pool don't have a lot to worry about. but if you're a few rungs down the ladder like me it's time to get serious.

 

[TKMulePacker]

Correct me if im mistaken, but if they take 50% of the quotas for the premium tags and put it into a random draw... Would that not seriously screw over those in the 20-30pt range? How does knocking people out of the pool with half the required points fix anything?

 

[wweaver79]

Couple mentions of burning points on a landowner tag purchase- this would help creep for sure. Would have got me last year anyway.

 

[LivingTheDream]

"Pick One. Applicants may only apply for a license for one of the
following species each draw year: Rocky Mountain bighorn sheep,
desert bighorn sheep, mountain goat or moose. Preference points
can still be purchased for the other three species (except desert
sheep) annually. The agency remains neutral on this
recommendation and would like to hear feedback from the
public."

As a NR. I really like this, I think a lot of NR buy points or put in for all 3, just to see if they can draw. Still allowing people to buy points is pretty much revenue neutral and doesn't screw anyone who has been build points for years. Still a long shot to draw but bet it does help some.

Just bring back up front fees and maybe I will draw a tag in my lifetime.

 

[Togwotee]

Correct me if im mistaken, but if they take 50% of the quotas for the premium tags and put it into a random draw... Would that not seriously screw over those in the 20-30pt range? How does knocking people out of the pool with half the required points fix anything?

It doesn't fix anything for those who've paid their dues. the idea is to screw them and give the tags to a newbie or someone who's burnt their points already.

If you take this and the reduction in the NR quota it's going to be a real hose job for the long haulers.

 

[RRCowboyStar]

The 50% Random will definitely pose some questions, If you are in no man's land, why not put in for a high point unit, does this open more opportunity for those mid/low point units?

 

[Togwotee]

Maybe , but probably not for a few years after it's implemented. seems like if you had say 10-15 points you'd drop back and burn them while you still could. at least that's what I'd do. but after those points are burnt the number required may drop.

 

[Ridn9high]

CPW had made point creep and the PP system the way it is with their very forgiving turn your tag in system because the weather isnt lining up with the hunt or some other BS reason to turn it in. They should do as Wyoming does and not let anyone turn them in except for a few exceptions.
Think about all the tags that get turned in each year and all the point holders that got their PP’s back and are still in the PP game, when they should be at 0. Then all of us who buy them off the reissue and get to hunt good units every year and not use ours points, when in reality someone should lose their points for that tag.

 

[Thill]

I truly feel sorry for top point holders and NR in CO.

You better have plan or should I say exit plan - if you are going to stay in the CO point game!

 

[jims]

Reissue should burn points!
Landowner tags should burn points!

 

[Utah400Elk]

I would love to see a Idaho type system. You can only apply for one tag each year. Give everybody a few years to adjust and then implement. Also, if you get a tag via draw, landowner, or re-issue, you burn points.

I think this would do a lot to help with point creep. I know I get points every year and this would definitely change what I do. Requiring full fees up front and single application would affect point creep. The tag allocation is a state issue to me. Most of the other western states are at 10%. Colorado has been very generous. I like the 50/50 split for NR preference points and bonus points…with the delay to allow high point holders to adjust.

JMO. I will play whatever game the implement and will adjust what I do based on their new system.

 

[wweaver79]

The Idaho system would help. ( modified with bonus points ) I have been hopelessly applying for moose and therefore out of the deer elk pronghorn draw for the last 15 years or so. That would make a big change in point creep. Up front fees again would help, maybe not put the money in the bank for 4 months like Wyoming does with elk however. So many options to look with this. What other states have done with what works and what does not by this point. But they cannot abandon all the point holders and do a complete re do at this point.

 

[COLOelkman]

I’m too lazy to throw the challenge flag on all us slide rule statisticians, but I believe my odds for moose will go up in 2028.

It’s a step in the right direction finally. Lets see if they have the balls to pass it.

From articles I've read, the change they are proposing will have the same odds as the current system. Although I don't fully understand why, I trust the statisticians that have evaluated these systems. The only system that I've seen that helps those with higher points is like Nevada where they square your points. So anyone still has a chance to draw but those of us that have waited much longer have a better chance. I've no idea why they would change the system to a new one that doesn't effect the overall odds. Seems like a little smoke and mirrors to appease those that have complained (like me) about the current system. Frustrating to wait 20+ years and see people draw that have only waited a few years!

 

[goforbroke]

I like the proposed changes. Gives me hope every year, but most tags will still go to top point holder. reissue burns points. Seems very similar to Utah and I like their system. I am one of those that seems to never draw until I have max points, so Idaho and New Mexico are a waste of dollars for me.

 

[Bluehair]

From articles I've read, the change they are proposing will have the same odds as the current system. Although I don't fully understand why, I trust the statisticians that have evaluated these systems. The only system that I've seen that helps those with higher points is like Nevada where they square your points. So anyone still has a chance to draw but those of us that have waited much longer have a better chance. I've no idea why they would change the system to a new one that doesn't effect the overall odds. Seems like a little smoke and mirrors to appease those that have complained (like me) about the current system. Frustrating to wait 20+ years and see people draw that have only waited a few years!

The guys who apply for sheep and goat won’t be in the draw for moose. Assuming the same percentages as in the proposals, won’t that reduce the moose applicants substantially?

The statisticians say the odds are the same for 30 chances in the hat, or having your initial draw number “randomly” manipulated 30 times.

I want to see the proof. They should show their work

You fellers sure are trusting of The Deep State.

 

[Crampy]

From articles I've read, the change they are proposing will have the same odds as the current system. Although I don't fully understand why, I trust the statisticians that have evaluated these systems. The only system that I've seen that helps those with higher points is like Nevada where they square your points. So anyone still has a chance to draw but those of us that have waited much longer have a better chance. I've no idea why they would change the system to a new one that doesn't affect the overall odds. Seems like a little smoke and mirrors to appease those that have complained (like me) about the current system. Frustrating to wait 20+ years and see people draw that have only waited a few years!

Correct. Making someone only apply for one (MSG) just simply puts all your eggs in one basket. Rather than spread over 3 baskets. It “concentrates your odds” on your preferred species. It does not create more tags, make more people happy.

For the folks that apply for all three, MSG. Yes, odds do improve slightly for the applicants that only applied for that one species previously.

 

[nripepi]

Correct. Making someone only apply for one (MSG) just simply puts all your eggs in one basket. Rather than spread over 3 baskets. It “concentrates your odds” on your preferred species. It does not create more tags, make more people happy.

For the folks that apply for all three, MSG. Yes, odds do improve slightly for the applicants that only applied for that one species previously.

It will probably improve Moose or Goat odds some assuming more people choose Bighorn. It is not really fair to those that have been building points for all 3 for decades, this really hurts those folks with lots of points for all 3. Could you always buy points for all 3, like 10 or 20 years ago?

 

[nripepi]

I think it would be more fair for those with a lot of points (I do not have those as I have burnt mine) to go to 75/25 instead of 50/50 Preference/Bonus though Preference/Bonus is more fair to them than Preference/Random or Bonus/Random for sure.

Just no easy way to do this when you have had a system in place for 3 decades and people still have 3 decades of points! You really need to make all Elk tags limited to help fix this issue for the younger generation some.

 

[LIK2HNT]

Been building points for SMG for 25 years. Picking one would have cut my odds of drawing a tag by 67%. Lucky I drew Mtn Goat a few years ago. So now my odds will only cut 50%.

 

[Bluehair]

Been building points for SMG for 25 years. Picking one would have cut my odds of drawing a tag by 67%. Lucky I drew Mtn Goat a few years ago. So now my odds will only cut 50%.

This. I’m on the other side with only moose points.

 

[1989Cohunter]

I think it would be more fair for those with a lot of points (I do not have those as I have burnt mine) to go to 75/25 instead of 50/50 Preference/Bonus though Preference/Bonus is more fair to them than Preference/Random or Bonus/Random for sure.

Just no easy way to do this when you have had a system in place for 3 decades and people still have 3 decades of points! You really need to make all Elk tags limited to help fix this issue for the younger generation some.

Pretty much nailed it in my opinion. No matter what it’s going to be un fair to someone. 75/25 would help dampen the blow a bit though. And I also think all elk should be le at this point.

 

[HntHrdr]

“All recommendations will be discussed and considered by the Commission in a three-step process (November, January and March), with final consideration and voting at the March 2025 Commission Meeting”

“Adopted policies/regulations will not be implemented until the 2028 draws in order to allow time for draw reprogramming”

My gut tells me the current commission which is over half non/ anti hunters and couldn’t give two squirts about being there will just go with whatever the working group says

 

[COLOelkman]

The guys who apply for sheep and goat won’t be in the draw for moose. Assuming the same percentages as in the proposals, won’t that reduce the moose applicants substantially?

The statisticians say the odds are the same for 30 chances in the hat, or having your initial draw number “randomly” manipulated 30 times.

I want to see the proof. They should show their work

You fellers sure are trusting of The Deep State.

You can read the article on Toprut and confirm so these aren't deep state people but rather hunters that started their own website which is now part of OnX. I've emailed and discussed things with them before enough that I trust their opinions.

 

[HntHrdr]

Been building points for SMG for 25 years. Picking one would have cut my odds of drawing a tag by 67%. Lucky I drew Mtn Goat a few years ago. So now my odds will only cut 50%.

I’m with you, I think im 10+ points in for the big three… i can’t imagine if i was 25+… this is painful, pretty sure what 99% of guys will continue to apply for so it may slow creep in M/G but S creep will just bottle neck and go up

 

[txhunter58]

Been building points for SMG for 25 years. Picking one would have cut my odds of drawing a tag by 67%. Lucky I drew Mtn Goat a few years ago. So now my odds will only cut 50%.

Not true, because less people will put in for the tag you apply for.