Muzzleloader 1X vs All-Scope-Ban?

[Ballistic]

Nope--If everyone else is rockin 12X+ power scope and LR front stuffers so am I! Why in the he!! would I want to be at a disadvantage compared to everyone else when it's basically an any weapon front stuffer hunt? This ain't about beaver skin hats and buckskin pants dude. I want the rules to change for all of us because I want the muzzleloader hunt to be different from the any legal weapons hunt--that is it buddy! It's not that different as it stands and you know it as well as I no matter how much you lie to yourself.

Case in point-->I bought my kid a CV wolf, Mid grade scope, triple 7, harvester sabots, 240 grains XTPs. All in maybe $450 bucks--less than a mid grade center fire rifle by itself and here I am all set up!

Right out the gate we were grouping 1" @ 100 yards, 35 clicks on the turret to reach 300 yards which is good enough for a kid. SUPER easy drop chart. It was so dammed easy! That's a front stuffer with a rookie killin deer at 300 yards easy, In low light or what have ya. Muzzy hunting is cheap and killin is easy. I want to make it harder and different--you want to kill sh!t at 500 yards with your front stuffer--ok but I think different. You like the easy road, I like the hard road but we are on on the same road so knock it off with the 'nobody is stopping you bullscrap'!

Utah Archers take note--this is what will happen when you let crossbows through the door--same sh!t will be said by JakeH when he's rockin a crossbow shots at 150yards with his crossbow and your sitting their with your stock crossbow at 70 yards max. 'Nobody is stopping you from shooting a stock compound!' When the flood gates come open there is no stopping Utards from maxing out killing power--if anything we are good at killin sh!t and it shows.

1st off I’m happy that you can easily shoot 300 yards with your easy recipe with a cheap muzzy setup. From what I’ve seen this isn’t the case. The bullets and load you’re describing can really get pushed in a gust of wind and the speeds can really change a lot when temps change. If you can have a young shooter doing the same - then kudos to you.
The majority can’t hit squat at 300 yards at the bench and much worse in field conditions.
The muzzleloader hunt with scopes right now will never be the same as a rifle hunt. I’m finding it really hard to believe that the 2 systems are even being compared to each other.
I do empathize with those that are shooting open sights and have a hard time when they miss or wound an animal. They are the same that cry “it’s not fair” that someone shot a deer and tagged it with a scope. Usually it’s the same hunters that put a few rounds down the barrel the day before the hunt and hit a 18” piece of paper and call it good to go. I see and hear about it at the range all the time.

Again - glad it’s easy for you.
I’ve been playing the muzzy game for over 30 years and have all of the latest tech that that law will allow. I’m not going to say that it’s easy to shoot a muzzy long range and I’m still waiting for someone to prove me wrong.
I’ll get access to a long range facility and have a friendly match for those of you that say it’s easy. I’ll make it simple 12” targets and start with a cold bore shot at 350 yards.
No talking allowed to simulate hunting by yourself.
No benches - you’ll have to shoot off your pack or a bipod just like hunting. We could allow a rear bag that a Hardly hunter would take or maybe just skip that part because not many a hunter that I’ve seen carries one.
And then we can increase distances 150 yards at a time until we make it out to 1200 yards.
You miss -your out !

I already know the outcome - so someone please please accept. I’m hoping I’m wrong seriously and will apologize to all of you that say this is so easy to do and is just like a rifle.
We can even separate the sabot shooters from the full bore just to see how easy it really is. Bring your children and we can have a kids comp just to see how that works as well.

And I really hope those that have a Gunwerks muzzy show up.

 

[Hunter21]

Nope--If everyone else is rockin 12X+ power scope and LR front stuffers so am I! Why in the he!! would I want to be at a disadvantage compared to everyone else when it's basically an any weapon front stuffer hunt? This ain't about beaver skin hats and buckskin pants dude. I want the rules to change for all of us because I want the muzzleloader hunt to be different from the any legal weapons hunt--that is it buddy! It's not that different as it stands and you know it as well as I no matter how much you lie to yourself.

Case in point-->I bought my kid a CV wolf, Mid grade scope, triple 7, harvester sabots, 240 grains XTPs. All in maybe $450 bucks--less than a mid grade center fire rifle by itself and here I am all set up!

Right out the gate we were grouping 1" @ 100 yards, 35 clicks on the turret to reach 300 yards which is good enough for a kid. SUPER easy drop chart. It was so dammed easy! That's a front stuffer with a rookie killin deer at 300 yards easy, In low light or what have ya. Muzzy hunting is cheap and killin is easy. I want to make it harder and different--you want to kill sh!t at 500 yards with your front stuffer--ok but I think different. You like the easy road, I like the hard road but we are on on the same road so knock it off with the 'nobody is stopping you bullscrap'!

Utah Archers take note--this is what will happen when you let crossbows through the door--same sh!t will be said by JakeH when he's rockin a crossbow shots at 150yards with his crossbow and your sitting their with your stock crossbow at 70 yards max. 'Nobody is stopping you from shooting a stock compound!' When the flood gates come open there is no stopping Utards from maxing out killing power--if anything we are good at killin sh!t and it shows.

If it’s so easy for anyone to just to throw on a Mid grade scope and be shooting 1” @ 100 yards right out of the gate. Make 35 clicks on the turret and any rookie is killin deer easily at 300 yards then why haven’t success rates blown up?? Why have success rates stayed basically the same with and without scopes if it’s so easy with them??

 

[Airborne]

If it’s so easy for anyone to just to throw on a Mid grade scope and be shooting 1” @ 100 yards right out of the gate. Make 35 clicks on the turret and any rookie is killin deer easily at 300 yards then why haven’t success rates blown up?? Why have success rates stayed basically the same with and without scopes if it’s so easy with them??

Who gives a crap about success rates—this isn’t about success rates, it’s about the muzzy hunt being different than the any legal weapons hunt. I thought that was made clear?

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills

 

[twopointdn]

Nope--If everyone else is rockin 12X+ power scope and LR front stuffers so am I! Why in the he!! would I want to be at a disadvantage compared to everyone else when it's basically an any weapon front stuffer hunt? This ain't about beaver skin hats and buckskin pants dude. I want the rules to change for all of us because I want the muzzleloader hunt to be different from the any legal weapons hunt--that is it buddy! It's not that different as it stands and you know it as well as I no matter how much you lie to yourself.

Case in point-->I bought my kid a CV wolf, Mid grade scope, triple 7, harvester sabots, 240 grains XTPs. All in maybe $450 bucks--less than a mid grade center fire rifle by itself and here I am all set up!

Right out the gate we were grouping 1" @ 100 yards, 35 clicks on the turret to reach 300 yards which is good enough for a kid. SUPER easy drop chart. It was so dammed easy! That's a front stuffer with a rookie killin deer at 300 yards easy, In low light or what have ya. Muzzy hunting is cheap and killin is easy. I want to make it harder and different--you want to kill sh!t at 500 yards with your front stuffer--ok but I think different. You like the easy road, I like the hard road but we are on on the same road so knock it off with the 'nobody is stopping you bullscrap'!

Utah Archers take note--this is what will happen when you let crossbows through the door--same sh!t will be said by JakeH when he's rockin a crossbow shots at 150yards with his crossbow and your sitting their with your stock crossbow at 70 yards max. 'Nobody is stopping you from shooting a stock compound!' When the flood gates come open there is no stopping Utards from maxing out killing power--if anything we are good at killin sh!t and it shows.

That is what most did in 2016 when the change was made to allow magnified scopes if they agreed with the change or not they did not want to be disadvantaged. I went three years with my 1x scope on my muzzleloader after they made the change in my own form of boycotting the decision and then switched after get tired of being disadvantaged of others shooting over me at ridiculous ranges for muzzleloaders. It has only gotten worse with time and will continue to get worse if left unchecked. On the pole on the other thread I voted to go back to the 2016 regulations and I would welcome the WB board to do the same. It was a much more enjoyable hunt back then and I am not the only one that believes that way.

 

[Hunter21]

Who gives a crap about success rates—this isn’t about success rates, it’s about the muzzy hunt being different than the any legal weapons hunt. I thought that was made clear?

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills

Didn’t you just make it about success when you said any rookie kid can throw on a scope and kill deer easily at 300 yards??? I understand if you and others want the muzzleloader hunt to be different from any weapon hunts. Simply leave it at that!! It’s just how you personally want to hunt. There’s no need to come up with false narratives about how easy it is and anyone can turn into a killing machine. We have seven years of data showing this is just not true. There have been several made up narratives just like yours and basically everyone has been debunked. We have finally gotten down who cares about the herds, success rates, science, etc. We just want them off because we want the hunt to be different and that’s the way we like to hunt. Could have just came out and told the real reason from the start and not tried to sell us on all the BS!!

 

[Vanilla]

One has to be careful talking about the data around success rates. There are a crap ton of variables nobody has accounted for in controls that play into this. It’s not simply what happened before and what happened after with scopes being the only difference.

It’s illustrative, but not definitive. I said it before, I collated the data and it changed my perspective some, but that data has serious limitations and can’t just be cited as the end all be all and be taken seriously.

 

[Hunter21]

One has to be careful talking about the data around success rates. There are a crap ton of variables nobody has accounted for in controls that play into this. It’s not simply what happened before and what happened after with scopes being the only difference.

It’s illustrative, but not definitive. I said it before, I collated the data and it changed my perspective some, but that data has serious limitations and can’t just be cited as the end all be all and be taken seriously.

My point was just that if throwing on scope made it that easy, success would have skyrocketed and been very noticeable. Not just a few percentage points one way or another. I realize are success rate data isn’t the best!

 

[elkassassin]

So?

The SIG BDX is Not Legal To Use For Hunting In Utah!

But The Set-Up in This Youtube Clip Would Be Legal I Take it?

The Reason I'm Asking is I Might Rig One of These Up & See If I Can Shoot a Buck at 3,000 Yards!

Depending On What They Do With SmokePole Rules & Regs!

 

[Airborne]

Didn’t you just make it about success when you said any rookie kid can throw on a scope and kill deer easily at 300 yards??? I understand if you and others want the muzzleloader hunt to be different from any weapon hunts. Simply leave it at that!! It’s just how you personally want to hunt. There’s no need to come up with false narratives about how easy it is and anyone can turn into a killing machine. We have seven years of data showing this is just not true. There have been several made up narratives just like yours and basically everyone has been debunked. We have finally gotten down who cares about the herds, success rates, science, etc. We just want them off because we want the hunt to be different and that’s the way we like to hunt. Could have just came out and told the real reason from the start and not tried to sell us on all the BS!!

I’m saying it’s more similar now to the any legal weapons hunt. That was the point of me relaying my experience. It’s easy to plug and play just like a regular rifle. Not a lot of try to get pretty amazing results…just like the ALW hunt.

I’m not selling success rates, false narratives, or herd health. No matter how much the LR crowd wants to bring it around to their favorite worn out argument

 

[elkfromabove]

Who gives a crap about success rates—this isn’t about success rates, it’s about the muzzy hunt being different than the any legal weapons hunt. I thought that was made clear?

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills

Then, my question is; If the ONLY reason for removing advancing technology from muzzleloaders is to make the muzzleloading hunts different from the rifle hunts, then what are the reasons for removing advancing technologies from the archery and any weapon hunts? I don't know of any groups wanting to remove technologies from those weapons for that reason. Do you?

Besides, if you remove scopes from the muzzy hunts and then reduce or limit the power of scopes on rifles, it makes the hunts more alike, not more different.

Plus, we're still waiting for those "amazing results".

 

[roadrunner]

Who gives a crap about success rates—this isn’t about success rates, it’s about the muzzy hunt being different than the any legal weapons hunt. I thought that was made clear?

I feel like I’m taking crazy pills

If it's simply about making a muzzleloader hunt a muzzleloader hunt by removing scopes, why is this still being discussed ad nauseum?

It's not rocket science.

If it’s so easy for anyone to just to throw on a Mid grade scope and be shooting 1” @ 100 yards right out of the gate. Make 35 clicks on the turret and any rookie is killin deer easily at 300 yards then why haven’t success rates blown up?? Why have success rates stayed basically the same with and without scopes if it’s so easy with them??

A better question is how many tags go unfilled now that the shooter can be more selective because range has been increased whereas before they weren't?

 

[Airborne]

Then, my question is; If the ONLY reason for removing advancing technology from muzzleloaders is to make the muzzleloading hunts different from the rifle hunts, then what are the reasons for removing advancing technologies from the archery and any weapon hunts? I don't know of any groups wanting to remove technologies from those weapons for that reason. Do you?

Besides, if you remove scopes from the muzzy hunts and then reduce or limit the power of scopes on rifles, it makes the hunts more alike, not more different.

Plus, we're still waiting for those "amazing results".

The tech committee seems to be blocking emerging tech from archery and ALW, not walking it back much aside from some special and uncommon electronics. They may have set some definitions for specialty primitive hunts but those are not going to be applied to the entirety of the state.

I don't know what you mean by your last sentence

 

[Ballistic]

I’m saying it’s more similar now to the any legal weapons hunt. That was the point of me relaying my experience. It’s easy to plug and play just like a regular rifle. Not a lot of try to get pretty amazing results…just like the ALW hunt.

I’m not selling success rates, false narratives, or herd health. No matter how much the LR crowd wants to bring it around to their favorite worn out argument

Ok
Have a challenge for all you posters that talk about how easy it is to shoot out to 1200 yards. And how easy a muzzy is -just plug and play.
This is a 100 yard challenge. It’s an egg shoot. Eggs are a little over 2”

This will be easy for you so called experts that know how amazing a muzzleloader shoots - or do you ?
You just have to lay prone like you would hunting. Or you can really showcase your skills by sitting or standing. No benches allowed.
Make sure you bring a brand new cheap off the shelve muzzy and a scope. Or whatever you want.
I’ll bring my labradar to verify your single digit speeds from shot to shot. Since your experts - you already know this is necessary to engage targets way out there at muzzleloader velocities (black powder or blackhorn 209).

This has to be a competition though.
I get to bring a 6 BR.
That way we can compare just how similar the 2 weapon systems are. I’ll make my target dimes - just to make it fun and to put some pressure on both of us. You know - a similar type of pressure that you get from hunting.
After 100 yards we will go 200/300/400/500.
Not 1200 - because 1200 should be saved for your cold bore shot on a 12” square steel plate -lol !

Come on you posters that know it all. Let’s have a friendly match.

 

[elkfromabove]

First off, the tech committee is NOT the RAC's, Wildlife Board, nor the DWR. They are only a source of ideas for those entities. Whether or not the committee even has a vote isn't know, but rest assured the Wildlife Board has an agenda tied to their request for this information and it isn't just to make 2 weapon hunts more different from each other. If that were the case, they wouldn't even bother the bowhunters, 'cause archery is nowhere near being the same as the other 2 weapons and can NEVER be. The very concepts are miles apart, let alone the physical execution of sending the projectile from the hunter to the animal.

Also, all those entities have to sell the idea to the public, the state legislature for legal code, the state treasury for state funds, and the US Fish and Wildlife Service for federal funds and I suspect that their reason given will likely not fly because it's divisive, difficult to enforce, and discourages growth in the hunting industry.

However, if you are correct that these tactics only affect certain or special hunts and isn't applied to all hunts, then even I can support them. I just don't like being forced to needlessly comply to someone else's ethics that don't help the deer/big game numbers or hunter numbers or opportunities to hunt.

Sorry, I misunderstood your comment on post 609. "Not a lot of try to get pretty amazing results...just like the ALW hunts." The results are already like each other. However, it remains yet to be seen whether adding new technologies will actually increase results. The adding of magnifying scopes on muzzys in 2016 didn't, at least not beyond 2016.

Edited:
I just recalculated the success rates of the 6 years before and the 6 years after 2016 when the mag scopes were allowed. And using actual numbers of deer divided by the actual number of hunters in the field rather than just averaging the success rates per year, I've discovered that there was, indeed an increase of success rates after the scopes were allowed. As it turns out the average rate before was 28.9 and the average rate after was 31.9 for a 3.0 increase. In other words, the mag scope allowance appears to make a difference. I apologize for the misdirection. HOWEVER, (There's always one of those, isn't there.), the years 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 were all below 30.0 while everything else, except 2019, was above 30.0. Why those 4 in a row were different is hard to say, but it was unusual. In any case, these figures only pertain to muzzleloaders.

 

[Airborne]

@Ballistic
What range do you think the AVERAGE (common definition) successful ALW rifle shot is on deer & Elk in Utah? What AVERAGE time(s) of day does this shot take place?

I appreciate that you are a bada$$ shot--good for you buddy

If my claim that the current modern muzzleloader is not that much different than the current average rifle then maybe all of these shot contests you are proposing should be based on meeting this average (shot distance/time of day).

We are not hunting eggs nor punching paper. We are the average Utard out killing deer. The average Muzzy doofus has a $300 CVA wolf equivalent with $250 scope and the average rifle hunter has a $400 bolt action 30-06 with a $250 probably vortex scope.

On the average killin distance for deer those two platforms are not that different. Both can hit a paper plate at 200 yards within the first/last 15 minutes of light with an average shooter behind the gun.

Hence my argument that based on averages these weapon platforms are currently not that different. I think they should be more different--that is all

 

[elkassassin]

I Wonder If 10r Would Be Willing To Jump On THE BOARD Again?

 

[JakeH]

Nope--If everyone else is rockin 12X+ power scope and LR front stuffers so am I! Why in the he!! would I want to be at a disadvantage compared to everyone else when it's basically an any weapon front stuffer hunt? This ain't about beaver skin hats and buckskin pants dude. I want the rules to change for all of us because I want the muzzleloader hunt to be different from the any legal weapons hunt--that is it buddy! It's not that different as it stands and you know it as well as I no matter how much you lie to yourself.

Case in point-->I bought my kid a CV wolf, Mid grade scope, triple 7, harvester sabots, 240 grains XTPs. All in maybe $450 bucks--less than a mid grade center fire rifle by itself and here I am all set up!

Right out the gate we were grouping 1" @ 100 yards, 35 clicks on the turret to reach 300 yards which is good enough for a kid. SUPER easy drop chart. It was so dammed easy! That's a front stuffer with a rookie killin deer at 300 yards easy, In low light or what have ya. Muzzy hunting is cheap and killin is easy. I want to make it harder and different--you want to kill sh!t at 500 yards with your front stuffer--ok but I think different. You like the easy road, I like the hard road but we are on on the same road so knock it off with the 'nobody is stopping you bullscrap'!

Utah Archers take note--this is what will happen when you let crossbows through the door--same sh!t will be said by JakeH when he's rockin a crossbow shots at 150yards with his crossbow and your sitting their with your stock crossbow at 70 yards max. 'Nobody is stopping you from shooting a stock compound!' When the flood gates come open there is no stopping Utards from maxing out killing power--if anything we are good at killin sh!t and it shows.

Nope--If everyone else is rockin 12X+ power scope and LR front stuffers so am I! Why in the he!! would I want to be at a disadvantage compared to everyone else
Why do you care what everyone else is packing? This is not a competition between you and the other hunters.

I want to make it harder and different--you want to kill sh!t at 500 yards with your front stuffer--ok but I think different. You like the easy road, I like the hard road but we are on on the same road so knock it off with the 'nobody is stopping you bullscrap'!
You want to dictate how others hunt, if you truly liked the hard road it wouldn't matter what the others in the field are using on "their" hunt, you can make your hunt as hard or easy as you like. So I will not knock it off, you knock it off and worry about your damn self and hunt the way you want to hunt, stop pushing your views onto the others.

Utah Archers take note--this is what will happen when you let crossbows through the door--same sh!t will be said by JakeH when he's rockin a crossbow shots at 150yards with his crossbow and your sitting their with your stock crossbow at 70 yards max. 'Nobody is stopping you from shooting a stock compound!'

This is funny, I consider myself an archery guy primarily, but am an equal opportunity hunter so I will go hunt for whatever weapon system I can get a tag for. My dad got his crossbow exception this year so we have gotten him a crossbow to use. It is a very good crossbow and before this I had no experience with them at all. We have been shooting it a lot and I can tell you with the current limitations the state has on the crossbow 150 yards is not a very doable shot, and I really dont think it would be a very consistent shot especially in a hunting situation even if there wasn't restrictions. My dad's max range is going to be around 80 yards, which is exactly what my max range is with my vertical bow.

After learning it and using it, I will say this there are aspects of a crossbow that are better than a regular bow, but it's not a far superior weapon there are plus and minus to both systems.

That said I have no plans to switch over anytime soon and there has been absolutely no talk of them "letting crossbows through the door" so not even sure what you are talking about.

And I'm not competing with my fellow Archers, it's not a me vs the other guy deal so this analogy makes no sense.

But at least I am speaking from experience and not just blindly making crap up.



Case in point-->I bought my kid a CV wolf, Mid grade scope, triple 7, harvester sabots, 240 grains XTPs. All in maybe $450 bucks--less than a mid grade center fire rifle by itself and here I am all set up!

Right out the gate we were grouping 1" @ 100 yards, 35 clicks on the turret to reach 300 yards which is good enough for a kid. SUPER easy drop chart. It was so dammed easy! That's a front stuffer with a rookie killin deer at 300 yards easy, In low light or what have ya.

When your boy drops the hammer on his buck from 300 yards I hope he is successful, my guess it's not because of luck, or easiness, as I'm sure he has put the time and effort into what he's doing to be successful. Good luck to your boy.

 

[Ballistic]

Good Post
1- I’m not a good shot - once was - ok sometimes -I’m old and my eyes aren’t great.
2- My post isn’t aimed at you - you aren’t claiming 1200 yard shots - but I don’t agree with your statement of plug and play -easy as a rifle.
3- I picked a 6BR for a reason. That cartridge is a low recoil high precision round that the benchrest crowd still has a cult following. I would bet that the average person could shoot this platform really well.
4-The average person can’t shoot a muzzy well. I’ve witnessed several hunters with lots of $$$ that can’t shoot them well. Did I just say Gunwerks out loud -yep !
5- I am a former longe range steel competitor. There are tons of variables involved to have 1st round hits on steel at extended ranges and that’s with the best of rifles.
6- The best shooters in this country -that I would say surpass what the very best shooters as hunters are - Are the PRS shooters.
Those shooters will never make or boast of guaranteed 1st round hits. I know a few of the top shots that are also long range hunters. They miss shots - not often but it happens
7- I will firmly stand behind my posts that a muzzleloader (the best made today by hanks precision rifles and arrowhead precision) or even a Gunwerks -will never be able to perform at the levels of a centerfire rifle.
8-The shooters that compete have fliers and shrug their shoulders and usually say -“Its a damn muzzleloader” and they are using smokeless powders with 40 plus pound setups.
9-When using blackhorn/blackpowders the results are less than stellar. Standard deviation variations are very high. Accuracy can be good at 100 yards but every 1 fps changes into 1 yard at extended ranges.

10-If your distance with a rifle is max at 200 yards then why are you shooting 300 yards with a muzzy ?

Lastly -I’m really trying hard to lure those into a match (not to showcase my poor shooting) to see if someone can actually do this long range shooting that’s being presented as easy or equal to a rifle.
I just haven’t met anyone -except social media hype -that can do this.

Would love to see what happens when the smoke clears -pun intended.

 

[Ballistic]

@Ballistic
What range do you think the AVERAGE (common definition) successful ALW rifle shot is on deer & Elk in Utah? What AVERAGE time(s) of day does this shot take place?

I appreciate that you are a bada$$ shot--good for you buddy

If my claim that the current modern muzzleloader is not that much different than the current average rifle then maybe all of these shot contests you are proposing should be based on meeting this average (shot distance/time of day).

We are not hunting eggs nor punching paper. We are the average Utard out killing deer. The average Muzzy doofus has a $300 CVA wolf equivalent with $250 scope and the average rifle hunter has a $400 bolt action 30-06 with a $250 probably vortex scope.

On the average killin distance for deer those two platforms are not that different. Both can hit a paper plate at 200 yards within the first/last 15 minutes of light with an average shooter behind the gun.

Hence my argument that based on averages these weapon platforms are currently not that different. I think they should be more different--that is all

Good Post
1- I’m not a good shot - once was - ok sometimes -I’m old and my eyes aren’t great.
2- My post isn’t aimed at you - you aren’t claiming 1200 yard shots - but I don’t agree with your statement of plug and play -easy as a rifle.
3- I picked a 6BR for a reason. That cartridge is a low recoil high precision round that the benchrest crowd still has a cult following. I would bet that the average person could shoot this platform really well.
4-The average person can’t shoot a muzzy well. I’ve witnessed several hunters with lots of $$$ that can’t shoot them well. Did I just say Gunwerks out loud -yep !
5- I am a former longe range steel competitor. There are tons of variables involved to have 1st round hits on steel at extended ranges and that’s with the best of rifles.
6- The best shooters in this country -that I would say surpass what the very best shooters as hunters are - Are the PRS shooters.
Those shooters will never make or boast of guaranteed 1st round hits. I know a few of the top shots that are also long range hunters. They miss shots - not often but it happens
7- I will firmly stand behind my posts that a muzzleloader (the best made today by hanks precision rifles and arrowhead precision) or even a Gunwerks -will never be able to perform at the levels of a centerfire rifle.
8-The shooters that compete have fliers and shrug their shoulders and usually say -“Its a damn muzzleloader” and they are using smokeless powders with 40 plus pound setups.
9-When using blackhorn/blackpowders the results are less than stellar. Standard deviation variations are very high. Accuracy can be good at 100 yards but every 1 fps changes into 1 yard at extended ranges.

10-If your distance with a rifle is max at 200 yards then why are you shooting 300 yards with a muzzy ?

Lastly -I’m really trying hard to lure those into a match (not to showcase my poor shooting) to see if someone can actually do this long range shooting that’s being presented as easy or equal to a rifle.
I just haven’t met anyone -except social media hype -that can do this.

Would love to see what happens when the smoke clears -pun intended.

 

[Betterluckythangood]

A mistake was made in 2016 by non-long term thinking individuals!

If the “restriction” is put back in place, that will be correcting a mistake!!!

 

[Airborne]

Nope--If everyone else is rockin 12X+ power scope and LR front stuffers so am I! Why in the he!! would I want to be at a disadvantage compared to everyone else
Why do you care what everyone else is packing? This is not a competition between you and the other hunters.

You kiddin me?! Hunters are competing against each other. If you haven't tried to get to a critter before the other guy then you really haven't has much experience on the Utah general deer hunt! The ability to shoot further gives ya that head start

I want to make it harder and different--you want to kill sh!t at 500 yards with your front stuffer--ok but I think different. You like the easy road, I like the hard road but we are on on the same road so knock it off with the 'nobody is stopping you bullscrap'!
You want to dictate how others hunt, if you truly liked the hard road it wouldn't matter what the others in the field are using on "their" hunt, you can make your hunt as hard or easy as you like. So I will not knock it off, you knock it off and worry about your damn self and hunt the way you want to hunt, stop pushing your views onto the others.

We all want to dictate how others hunt--you cool with leg hold traps for deer and elk or armed drones? How bout poison or night vision or maybe flying units and guiding in hunters from the air in real time?

We all want to dictate how others hunt--our wildlife is a public resource and we all have opinions on how those animals get hunted and to what level of fairness there is. To hide behind a 'you do you and leave me alone' stance is disingenuous although I don't think you are being that way on purpose--you just haven't thought this fully through.

This is funny, I consider myself an archery guy primarily, but am an equal opportunity hunter so I will go hunt for whatever weapon system I can get a tag for. My dad got his crossbow exception this year so we have gotten him a crossbow to use. It is a very good crossbow and before this I had no experience with them at all. We have been shooting it a lot and I can tell you with the current limitations the state has on the crossbow 150 yards is not a very doable shot, and I really dont think it would be a very consistent shot especially in a hunting situation even if there wasn't restrictions. My dad's max range is going to be around 80 yards, which is exactly what my max range is with my vertical bow.

After learning it and using it, I will say this there are aspects of a crossbow that are better than a regular bow, but it's not a far superior weapon there are plus and minus to both systems.

That said I have no plans to switch over anytime soon and there has been absolutely no talk of them "letting crossbows through the door" so not even sure what you are talking about.

It's an analogy regarding what happens when you let the cat out of the bag--trying to put it back is tough. Analogy my man!

And I'm not competing with my fellow Archers, it's not a me vs the other guy deal so this analogy makes no sense.

But at least I am speaking from experience and not just blindly making crap up.



Case in point-->I bought my kid a CV wolf, Mid grade scope, triple 7, harvester sabots, 240 grains XTPs. All in maybe $450 bucks--less than a mid grade center fire rifle by itself and here I am all set up!

Right out the gate we were grouping 1" @ 100 yards, 35 clicks on the turret to reach 300 yards which is good enough for a kid. SUPER easy drop chart. It was so dammed easy! That's a front stuffer with a rookie killin deer at 300 yards easy, In low light or what have ya.

When your boy drops the hammer on his buck from 300 yards I hope he is successful, my guess it's not because of luck, or easiness, as I'm sure he has put the time and effort into what he's doing to be successful. Good luck to your boy.

My little hunting buddy is my daughter (full blood female and always will be! ) and she already has a muzzy kill under her belt, little 2x3 at 200 yards, first shot scoped up easy for a 13 year old but I appreciate the good luck wishes!

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Airborne?

Do You Know What A PM Is?

If You Do?

Check Your PM!

 

[Elkslayer2015]

In 2013
Permits issued was 15,694
Hunter afield was. 13,578
With 30.7% success

In 2014
Permits issued was 15,825
Hunter afield was. 13,502
With 31.1% success

In 2015
Permits issued was 16,149
Hunter afield was. 13,873
With 34.5% success

In 2016
Permits issued was 16,941
Hunter afield was. 14,561
With 39.3 % success

In 2017
Permits issued was 16,279
Hunter afield was. 14,218
With 33.5% success

In 2018
Permits issued was. 16,734
Hunter afield was. 14,134
With 37.5% success


Looks like an increase to me.

 

[elkfromabove]

First off, the tech committee is NOT the RAC's, Wildlife Board, nor the DWR. They are only a source of ideas for those entities. Whether or not the committee even has a vote isn't know, but rest assured the Wildlife Board has an agenda tied to their request for this information and it isn't just to make 2 weapon hunts more different from each other. If that were the case, they wouldn't even bother the bowhunters, 'cause archery is nowhere near being the same as the other 2 weapons and can NEVER be. The very concepts are miles apart, let alone the physical execution of sending the projectile from the hunter to the animal.

Also, all those entities have to sell the idea to the public, the state legislature for legal code, the state treasury for state funds, and the US Fish and Wildlife Service for federal funds and I suspect that their reason given will likely not fly because it's divisive, difficult to enforce, and discourages growth in the hunting industry.

However, if you are correct that these tactics only affect certain or special hunts and isn't applied to all hunts, then even I can support them. I just don't like being forced to needlessly comply to someone else's ethics that don't help the deer/big game numbers or hunter numbers or opportunities to hunt.

Sorry, I misunderstood your comment on post 609. "Not a lot of try to get pretty amazing results...just like the ALW hunts." The results are already like each other. However, it remains yet to be seen whether adding new technologies will actually increase results. The adding of magnifying scopes on muzzys in 2016 didn't, at least not beyond 2016.

Edited:
I just recalculated the success rates of the 6 years before and the 6 years after 2016 when the mag scopes were allowed. And using actual numbers of deer divided by the actual number of hunters in the field rather than just averaging the success rates per year, I've discovered that there was, indeed an increase of success rates after the scopes were allowed. As it turns out the average rate before was 28.9 and the average rate after was 31.9 for a 3.0 increase. In other words, the mag scope allowance appears to make a difference. I apologize for the misdirection. HOWEVER, (There's always one of those, isn't there.), the years 2008, 2009, 2010, 2011 were all below 30.0 while everything else, except 2019, was above 30.0. Why those 4 in a row were different is hard to say, but it was unusual. In any case, these figures only pertain to muzzleloaders.

In 2013
Permits issued was 15,694
Hunter afield was. 13,578
With 30.7% success

In 2014
Permits issued was 15,825
Hunter afield was. 13,502
With 31.1% success

In 2015
Permits issued was 16,149
Hunter afield was. 13,873
With 34.5% success

In 2016
Permits issued was 16,941
Hunter afield was. 14,561
With 39.3 % success

In 2017
Permits issued was 16,279
Hunter afield was. 14,218
With 33.5% success

In 2018
Permits issued was. 16,734
Hunter afield was. 14,134
With 37.5% success


Looks like an increase to me.

In 2019
Permits issued was 16,342
Hunter afield was 13,840
With 27.0% success

In 2020
Permits issued was 14,712
Hunter afield was 12,801
With 30.1% success

In 2021
Permits issued was 13,352
Hunter afield was 11,098
With 33.9% success

In 2022
Permits issued was 13,048
Hunter afield was 11,002
With 34.5 % success

While the rates do not go up on a yearly basis, the average of the rates have risen from 28.3% (2007-2014) to 33.2% (2015-2022), an increase of 4.9%. Yes, they are going up!

 

[Shadow]

Harvest rates for the most part have gone up slightly. Meanwhile, deer populations in several units has dropped drastically. Just my opinion but if there are less deer available but success rates have still increased, wouldn’t that lend credibility to the argument that scoped guns are having an impact?

 

[elkassassin]

If I Apoxyed The Power Ring Adjustment Sitting On 1X!

Would You Guys Be OK With Me Having This Scope On My SmokePole?

I Don't Know What The Top Knob Is For So I Won't Apoxy It!

VX-5HD 1-5x24 CDS-ZL2 Illum. FireDot Duplex

Don't let its small size fool you. This scope is big game ready. At only 14.7 ounces, our VX®-5HD 1-5x24mm riflescope is built for long days in the wilderness. But we didn't stop there; its 1-5x magnification range, rugged construction, and clear glass make it a great choice for competition or...

www.leupold.com

 

[elkassassin]

It'll take a Decent 1-4 X Scope For My Original Remington SmokePole!

She'll Destroy a Red-Dot Or a Cheap 1X with 1-2 Pulls of the Trigger!

 

[MrShane]

If I Apoxyed The Power Ring Adjustment Sitting On 1X!

Would You Guys Be OK With Me Having This Scope On My SmokePole?

I Don't Know What The Top Knob Is For So I Won't Apoxy It!

VX-5HD 1-5x24 CDS-ZL2 Illum. FireDot Duplex

Don't let its small size fool you. This scope is big game ready. At only 14.7 ounces, our VX®-5HD 1-5x24mm riflescope is built for long days in the wilderness. But we didn't stop there; its 1-5x magnification range, rugged construction, and clear glass make it a great choice for competition or...

www.leupold.com

Elk,
‘Fixed’ means unmovable.
I hate the cheap 1x fixed power scopes.
Back in the day I installed a Leupold 1-4x (pre ‘16) and still have it on my Encore.
I called dwr and said as long as it was fixed I was good to go.
I used some Plasti-Dip to coat around the power ring leaving the 1x marking exposed.
I ran it up to the LEO’s at the Salt Lake office who approved it as a fixed 1 power scope.
I was warned that I better not be caught in the field with that scope with any of that torn Plasti-Dip torn off.
That was probably in ‘03-‘04’ish time frame.
It held until I ripped the plastic off and cranked that bad boy up to 4 power!
I love taking my game at extreme close up distances so the 4 power was plenty enough for me and never changed that scope to this day.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey MrShane!

Was It The UDWR Janitor You Talked To?

I Don't Know If You Shoulda Posted That But You Got Me LMAO!

 

[elkfromabove]

Harvest rates for the most part have gone up slightly. Meanwhile, deer populations in several units has dropped drastically. Just my opinion but if there are less deer available but success rates have still increased, wouldn’t that lend credibility to the argument that scoped guns are having an impact?

"Deer populations" and "deer available" are 2 separate things. "Deer populations" include the bucks, does and fawns, while "deer available" are only the bucks.

If you are just talking about the deer populations dropping, the answer to your question is no. That's because we are hunting bucks, not does, and it's the doe numbers that drive the population numbers.

On the other hand, killing bucks at higher muzzleloader success rates probably means that scoped muzzleloaders have an impact on the "deer available" numbers. and the answer to your question is "yes".

 

[MrShane]

Hey MrShane!

Was It The UDWR Janitor You Talked To?

I Don't Know If You Shoulda Posted That But You Got Me LMAO!

How did you know the janitor gave me permission!

 

[Hawkeye]

Was it that famous DWR janitor in Cedar City? Given past history, you should be good to go if he gave you the greenlight.

Hawkeye

 

[elkassassin]

Because Like hawky Said!

He's The Guy That Gives A Guy The Green Light!

How did you know the janitor gave me permission!

 

[Vanilla]

Because Like hawky Said!

He's The Guy That Gives A Guy The Green Light!

Or a gal…

 

[elkassassin]

I Oiled Up A Few Of My Guns Tonight!

I Say GAWD-DAMN!

Cleaned & Oiled Up My SmokePoles!

I Held Quite A Bit Of Evolution!

Then I Got To Thinkin!

I'm Lacking The Newest Of Evolution Though!

I Just Couldn't Find That 1200-1400 Yard CHIP Shot SmokePole That I Don't Own That Everybody-Else Is Using!

Anybody Know Where I Can Get Some GOEX 3fff Powder For My HAWKENS?

I Might Need Some If They Take Us Back Far Enough!

 

[elkassassin]

But It's OK To Hunt With This If You're Hunting With Rifles!

Looks Like a PISSCUTTER Scope Though!

 

[deadibob]

Hey deadibob?

Can you Make #3 A little More Clear As To What You're Sayin?

Hey deadibob?

Can you Make #3 A little More Clear As To What You're Sayin?

I would love to make it more clear but Founder put me in the corner for a few days because of my comments. I’M BACK BEEOTCHES!?

 

[deadibob]

60A-30M(fixed open sight)-10R

You continue missing the point by a freaking mile.
No one is trying to save deer with these restrictions......it's getting old trying to explain this over and over and over.

The purpose of this appointed committee is to tame technology, period.

Your archery equipment hasn't been crippled by banning electronics and neither has the centerfire rifles by banning electronics.

Your bow still shoots as far as it did 10 years ago, just as centerfire rifles do.
Those two weapons are both the short and long respectfully.

It's the muzzleloader that continues to evolve because of high power scopes.
That hunt was never intended to be what it is becoming.

Even you I believe once stated a bow will never shoot over 100 yards accurately and consistently, simply because of natural elements like wind.
No gadget will help an arrow find it's way to long range and never will. There are far too many natura variables.

Magnum cartridge rifles were designed to shoot longer distances and have been around since the H&H magnums were introduced in 1912.

Do you know what a "top of the line" muzzleloader looked like in even 1980?
It was a Hawkin style with open sights.
What do our muzzleloaders look like today?
Go look at the Gunwerks website for starters and come back try convincing the hunting world these types of muzzleloaders won't be widespread in our future if we don't apply the brakes right now.
The scope is what is causing the advancements in the rifles themselves along with the components.

For the last time........NO ONES END GOAL IS SAVING BUCKS.

What a load of horse puckey. The evolution of long range rifle shooting has evolved leaps and bounds in the last thirty years.
Magnum rifles don’t make a difference if you can’t see them to shoot them. Nobody was shooting deer at 1,000 yards with a .300 H&H 100 years ago. Now you can just range them, dial it up and shoot at 1/2 a mile or more.

If nobody’s end goal is saving bucks then WTF change a thing?? If we are concerned about technology but not concerned about saving bucks then why are we worried about technology? Why are we only worried about muzzle loaders but not any weapon hunts? I’ll tell you why, it’s because those who are in charge and trying to make changes are phat lazy b@$t@rds who can’t get 100 yards off the road and need laser guided missiles to kill anything over 1/2 a mile away. They are only worried that some deer might get killed before they get their chance at it.

This is going to end the same way it always does with government, do just enough to say they did something without fixing anything.

Personally I can’t stand any weapon hunts because that is where you find the most dangerous and incompetent “hunters” in the field. If you’ve ever hunted the Utah general deer hunt then you know what I’m talking about and this is where the term “UTARD” came from.

 

[Ballistic]

What a load of horse puckey. The evolution of long range rifle shooting has evolved leaps and bounds in the last thirty years.
Magnum rifles don’t make a difference if you can’t see them to shoot them. Nobody was shooting deer at 1,000 yards with a .300 H&H 100 years ago. Now you can just range them, dial it up and shoot at 1/2 a mile or more.

If nobody’s end goal is saving bucks then WTF change a thing?? If we are concerned about technology but not concerned about saving bucks then why are we worried about technology? Why are we only worried about muzzle loaders but not any weapon hunts? I’ll tell you why, it’s because those who are in charge and trying to make changes are phat lazy b@$t@rds who can’t get 100 yards off the road and need laser guided missiles to kill anything over 1/2 a mile away. They are only worried that some deer might get killed before they get their chance at it.

This is going to end the same way it always does with government, do just enough to say they did something without fixing anything.

Personally I can’t stand any weapon hunts because that is where you find the most dangerous and incompetent “hunters” in the field. If you’ve ever hunted the Utah general deer hunt then you know what I’m talking about and this is where the term “UTARD” came from.

?Bullseye
Except for the UTARD part- even though it's true.
LOL

 

[deadibob]

?Bullseye
Except for the UTARD part- even though it's true.
LOL

We’re not all Utards but there sure are a lot of them. They mostly rifle hunt because they can’t take the time to learn a weapon that takes skill.

I have never seen a horror show like the Utah general any weapon hunts. Guys wounding a buck and someone else finishes it off and then a fight breaks out over who gets to tag it ( I will always let you tag an animal if there is any question because then I can keep hunting). Getting scoped by idiots who don’t have binoculars and they want to see what you’re doing so they aim their rifle at you. There are lots of other examples but the any weapon hunts are what the idiots flock too.

If there were only one hunt in which to restrict technology it should be the any weapon hunt.

 

[Dryfly]

I currently have a 4-16x on my muzzy and I think we should ban everything but percussion cap or flintlock rifles. No scopes and no sabots, full bore lead ball or conicals. Will I hunt with my scope this year? Yes I will but I will fine with restrictions that reduce success rates because that's the only way tags will be available in the future in any quantity.

I bowhunt and I think we need to restrict it all to primitive equipment. No compounds, longbow, and recurves only.

Any weapon hunts need serious restrictions as well. 4x magnification scopes as a maximum should make a difference. If that isn't good enough then pre-1970 technology for weapon type restrictions as well.

The same folks that cry against weapon restrictions are the same people that moan about not being able to draw tags. Well you can't have both in the future because times have been changing and they are continuing to change at a rapid pace. Success rates are too high and herd numbers won't sustain it for long.

Yes people will cheat but the DNR needs a source of revenue so make the fines huge and give those cheaters a ten year hunting ban when they are caught. Extra bonus points or a tag for those who turn them in if there's a successful prosecution.

Face reality and either quit hunting or learn to hunt with more challenging methods. ...and here comes the ButthurtRestrict it too much and in my opinion the guys doing the crazy longer range stuff will still do it fairy.

 

[Dryfly]

If things get restricted too much, that wont stop people from trying to keep their longer ranges with any weapon types. It will indeed increase the number of wounded animals by magnitudes.

Especially bowhunters (I am one of them) If you make everyone go to traditional bows the wounding rate will go through the roof. Many folks can't hit a damn thing now with a compound bow, what happens when you put a long bow in their hands? In my opinion most are still going to take the shot.

I have long been in favor of everybody having to pass a shooting test every few years with a bow and BROADHEAD tipped arrows in order to even hunt. Many screw on broadheads the night before the hunt that they have never even shot with. Things change and errors are magnified, too many don't even know this already.

Same with muzzle loaders, I think 4x is reasonable. Open sights only will again lead to many wounded animals, many will still be at very long ranges.

 

[Shadow]

I get what you’re saying Dryfly but the fact remains, you can’t fix stupid. The guy who screws in broad heads the night before the opener is the same type who will try shooting a deer at 500 yards in the wind with his muzzy. Atleast without a good sight view of the animal through the 12 power scope, that idiot may decide to pass on the 500 yard shot.

 

[elkassassin]

How Bout The LongRanger That Buys A Box Of Random Bullets The Night Before Season?

Remember:

There Are 3 Weapon Types With All Kinds Of GADGETRY For All Of Them!

 

[Shadow]

Agreed Bess. And like I said, you can’t fix stupid.