MDF ASKS FOR HB469 VETO

[2lumpy]

The influencers bring waaaaaay to many additional dollars to the table that supplement government funding to ever disappear, not to mention the multitudes of jobs and tasks that are created with all the projects taking place that wouldn't be there otherwise.

Can or should there be areas of political changes to either shift power or at least corral and tame it?
I don't think anyone on the outside would say "No".

Yep……. Exactly rightSlsmdunk. And……….. when you come to the party late………. and don’t have all the back history and your not aware of all the napkins meeting, from the back of the bar, you think you understand what’s going on but in fact you are just another product of the chaos.

Reminds of this song, sung by Joe Diffie. The ole boys that wrote the lyrics to this little ditty understand reality better than 99% of the world.

Now, read the lyrics, so you’re not distracted by the video images.

Third Rock From the Sun

Lyrics
Welcome to Earth, third rock from the Sun
She walks into Smokey's, one hip at a time
Like a broken field runner slippin' through the lines
He likes the way she looks, so he calls the little wife
Says "Don't wait up for me, I'll be working late tonight"
Wife hangs up the phone bursts into tears
Calls her sister up and cries, "Get over here"
Sister tells her boyfriend, "Be back in a while"
Boyfriend wants a beer, the store is just a mile
He leaves the motor runnin', he'll only be a minute
His car drives away with teenagers in it
The driver tells his buddies, "Got one life to live"
They scream into the night, let's get it over with
'Cause and effect, chain of events
All of the chaos makes perfect sense
When you're spinnin' round
Things come undone
Welcome to Earth, third rock from the Sun
The kid guns the gas, car starts to swerve
Heads for a semi-truck, jumps the curb
Truck hits a big boy in the Shoney's parking lot
Flies through the air, takes out the bank clock
Clock strikes a light pole, transformer sparks
Lines go down, town goes dark
Waitress calls the cops, says she saw it all
Swears a giant alien has landed at the mall
Cops ring up the mayor says, "There's panic in the street
We hate to wake you up, but we can't find the chief"
Mayor says, "Use your head, if he ain't in his car
He's hiding from his wife, down at Smokey's bar"
'Cause and effect, chain of events
All of the chaos makes perfect sense
When you're spinnin' round
Things come undone
Welcome to Earth, third rock from the Sun
'Cause and effect, chain of events
All of the chaos makes perfect sense
When you're spinnin' round
Things come undone
Welcome to Earth, third rock from the Sun

 

[Hawkeye]

Lumpy-

Since you know all the back history, and were present at the “napkin meetings,” please educate the rest of us knuckleheads as to how to fix the problems we are facing. What realistically should the DWR and the WB be doing today to grow our deer herds? And why didn’t SFW ram those policies through since they controlled the steering wheel for the last three decades?

Hawkeye

 

[2lumpy]

Lumpy-

Since you know all the back history, and were present at the “napkin meetings,” please educate the rest of us knuckleheads as to how to fix the problems we are facing. What realistically should the DWR and the WB be doing today to grow our deer herds? And why didn’t SFW ram those policies through since they controlled the steering wheel for the last three decades?

Hawkeye

Come on Hawkeye, you’re a critical thinker. You’ve had so many hints, it should be like a smoke alarm light flasher and a screaming fire alarm…… going off in your motel room at three in the morning.

I want to say go back to the 1970’s and think through the specific events that have happened until today but you can’t, because you’re too young and the old history is not accessible………. that’s okay because there has been enough history since you’ve been active to get you through the process and figure out what’s going on now and why a few of us claim the DWR is in control of our wildlife.

Put your frustrations in a box and set them in the fridge for an hour, then……. go back and as far as you can and think it through. You’ll figure it out and I won’t have to worry about getting my tires slashed in the middle of the night.

 

[notdonhunting]

I don't know the answer and maybe one of you can answer.
With the DWR being a division of the DNR, would auctioning of the EXPO tags and other conservation tags create a problem with the budget. And I know with some of these goverment budgets it is hard to put money to the side allowing the fund to grow so they could do a project years down the road.


I agree these conservation organizations need to be more transparent (mostly one in particular) with the money earned and the money spent, but I belive we get more bang for the buck through the conservation organizations than the government.

 

[2lumpy]

I don't know the answer and maybe one of you can answer.
With the DWR being a division of the DNR, would auctioning of the EXPO tags and other conservation tags create a problem with the budget. And I know with some of these goverment budgets it is hard to put money to the side allowing the fund to grow so they could do a project years down the road.


I agree these conservation organizations need to be more transparent (mostly one in particular) with the money earned and the money spent, but I belive we get more bang for the buck through the conservation organizations than the government.

That one’s a little more tricky to understand notdon. but there could be more truth to that than you know. Just saying.

 

[2lumpy]

I don't know the answer and maybe one of you can answer.
With the DWR being a division of the DNR, would auctioning of the EXPO tags and other conservation tags create a problem with the budget. And I know with some of these goverment budgets it is hard to put money to the side allowing the fund to grow so they could do a project years down the road.


I agree these conservation organizations need to be more transparent (mostly one in particular) with the money earned and the money spent, but I belive we get more bang for the buck through the conservation organizations than the government.

And I don’t see that as a negative thing in any sense.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Lumpy!

That's One Of My Favorite Songs!

I Re-Worded The Song a few Years Back & Boy Did That Ever PISS A Bunch Of People Off!

"Got one Wildlife to live"
They scream in the night Before, let's get it over with"

 

[slamdunk]

And I don’t see that as a negative thing in any sense.

I haven't studied the other groups websites, but it's extremely easy to see the financials of the MDF right on their page, including audits past and present.

I can't fathom any entity getting away with shady dealings today, especially the one being focused on so hard in this thread.

 

[SS!]

I can't fathom any entity getting away with shady dealings today, especially the one being focused on so hard in this thread.

????????

 

[Vanilla]

I don't know the answer and maybe one of you can answer.
With the DWR being a division of the DNR, would auctioning of the EXPO tags and other conservation tags create a problem with the budget. And I know with some of these goverment budgets it is hard to put money to the side allowing the fund to grow so they could do a project years down the road.


I agree these conservation organizations need to be more transparent (mostly one in particular) with the money earned and the money spent, but I belive we get more bang for the buck through the conservation organizations than the government.

The legislature would definitely need to be involved with that hypothetical change posed there. But if the state wanted to do that, the legislature could make it possible. Laws can be changed, after all. I’m not even arguing for that. I’d prefer all those tags go back into the public draw. I was simply responding to the post about how much money these “conservation” organizations bring to the table, when in fact, it’s almost all government/public resource produced money in the first place. They would have it if the state didn’t hand them these tags, and that is partly why they do it, and if we could remove the dark underbellies involved, it probably wouldn’t be such a bad thing we do it.

As for shady dealings…ummmm…never mind. I do agree MDF has been very transparent with financials, to their credit. But they just tried to bite the hand that feeds them, so they’re in my dog house anyway.

 

[elkassassin]

 

[bucks]

It seems to me that when Utah split up the units,From 5 to not sure the number 18 or twenty something? we had a year or two that the deer were abundant,That is when the outfitting business in the state of Utah went from a few to god only knows how many! My dad used to tell me when I was in my teens that the deer were in trouble ,and that they were disappearing,I at the time thought he was crazy,because there seemed to be deer every were.This was 38 years ago!!!,So all im saying is that the old old timers seen this coming back when I was hunting deer in the Glory days,Now if there is a deer that has horns out past his head width he has eyes on him until he is DEAD.Regulate the hunting industry and for sure the outfitting business that is a start.
NO MORE AUCTION TAGS,NO MORE GIVING TAGS TO FOUNDATIONS TO AUCTION OR GIVE AWAY,MAKE THE MONEY TO MANAGE WILDLIFE FROM THE SALES OF LICENSESE,REGULATE THE CWMU LANDOWNER TAGS BETTER(AS IN DONT GIVE OUT SO MANY TAGS TO PROPERTY OWNERS WHO SELL LEASES TO BIG MONEY OUTFITTERS MOST OF THE TIME ANYWAY)GET BACK TO THE GRASS ROOTS OF WHAT HUNTING IS OR WAS.Just look at the expo in salt lake for example,this is the biggest money making event in Utah.So we are selling the wildlife<NOT HUNTING THEM IMO.
Im just curious how much money a year Doyal ,Wade,Jarett,Adam,And a whole bunch more make a year at the expense of wildlife?More than likely a bunch more than most of us punching the key board here on MM.

 

[hossblur]

This thread has taught me a lot of things, yet left me asking questions to my Peirs to gain more political knowledge since that seems to be the hang up of many in opposition to Special Interest groups, the Expo or the combination thereof.

There seems to be disagreement on who actually calls the shots in making policies on big game laws, the WB or the DNR itself.

In doing some research on the matter, this appears to be the conclusion?
Section 3 being the Finale

<< Previous Section (23-14-2.6)

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Index	Utah Code
Title 23	Wildlife Resources Code of Utah
Chapter 14	Division of Wildlife Resources and Wildlife Board
Section 3	Powers of division to determine facts -- Policymaking powers of Wildlife Board. (Effective 5/12/2020)

---

Effective 5/12/2020
23-14-3. Powers of division to determine facts -- Policymaking powers of Wildlife Board.

(1)	The Division of Wildlife Resources may determine the facts relevant to the wildlife resources of this state.

(2)

(a) Upon a determination of these facts, the Wildlife Board shall establish the policies best designed to accomplish the purposes and fulfill the intent of all laws pertaining to wildlife and the preservation, protection, conservation, perpetuation, introduction, and management of wildlife. (b) In establishing policy, the Wildlife Board shall: (i) recognize that wildlife and its habitat are an essential part of a healthy, productive environment; (ii) recognize the impact of wildlife on humans, human economic activities, private property rights, and local economies; (iii) seek to balance the habitat requirements of wildlife with the social and economic activities of man; (iv) recognize the social and economic values of wildlife, including fishing, hunting, and other uses; and (v) seek to maintain wildlife on a sustainable basis. (c) (i) The Wildlife Board shall consider the recommendations of the regional advisory councils established in Section 23-14-2.6. (ii) If a regional advisory council recommends a position or action to the Wildlife Board, and the Wildlife Board rejects the recommendation, the Wildlife Board shall provide a written explanation to the advisory council recommending the opposing position.

(3)	No authority conferred upon the Wildlife Board by this title shall supersede the administrative authority of the executive director of the Department of Natural Resources or the director of the Division of Wildlife Resource

The Division owns the authority over the WB in the end.

Piers Morgan? Yes I saw it's spelled differently too

 

[hossblur]

As it should be………. it’s the frustration of sportsmen that has gotten us to where we are today.

Once again, as if saying it yet again will make a darn bit of different. If the bureaucracy would do its job, the “influencers” could and would disappear into the sagebrush and the aspen trees.

You TRULY believe guys like Peay are gonna just fade away?

 

[bucks]

They won't as long as there is a pay day involved.Loose the MONEY you lose the infiltrators.

 

[2lumpy]

It seems to me that when Utah split up the units,From 5 to not sure the number 18 or twenty something? we had a year or two that the deer were abundant,That is when the outfitting business in the state of Utah went from a few to god only knows how many! My dad used to tell me when I was in my teens that the deer were in trouble ,and that they were disappearing,I at the time thought he was crazy,because there seemed to be deer every were.This was 38 years ago!!!,So all im saying is that the old old timers seen this coming back when I was hunting deer in the Glory days,Now if there is a deer that has horns out past his head width he has eyes on him until he is DEAD.Regulate the hunting industry and for sure the outfitting business that is a start.
NO MORE AUCTION TAGS,NO MORE GIVING TAGS TO FOUNDATIONS TO AUCTION OR GIVE AWAY,MAKE THE MONEY TO MANAGE WILDLIFE FROM THE SALES OF LICENSESE,REGULATE THE CWMU LANDOWNER TAGS BETTER(AS IN DONT GIVE OUT SO MANY TAGS TO PROPERTY OWNERS WHO SELL LEASES TO BIG MONEY OUTFITTERS MOST OF THE TIME ANYWAY)GET BACK TO THE GRASS ROOTS OF WHAT HUNTING IS OR WAS.Just look at the expo in salt lake for example,this is the biggest money making event in Utah.So we are selling the wildlife<NOT HUNTING THEM IMO.
Im just curious how much money a year Doyal ,Wade,Jarett,Adam,And a whole bunch more make a year at the expense of wildlife?More than likely a bunch more than most of us punching the key board here on MM.

I understand your frustration, I really do but outfitters and auction buyers are not killing our does and fawns………. are they?

What you father was talking about wasn’t just loosing all the buck deer, he was seeing the decline of “all deer”.

Who’s responsible for all the deer?

If 500,000 does produce 150,009 buck deer per year, for us to hunt and kill, how many buck do 250,000 does produce? Half as many……… is that right?

If you and I want to kill more bucks, what has to happen?

Who controls the number of does, fawns and bucks? NOT THE OUTFITTERS AND NOT THE AUCTION BUYERS AND NOT THE CONSERVATION ORGANIZATIONS?

You want more bucks, you know who to call!

 

[middlefork]

Nice little study about what happens to cattle and ranchers during drought.

https://hazards.utah.gov/wp-content/uploads/drought_impact_on_cattle_industry-Final-August-2020.pdf

There is obviously many other things effecting deer too.

 

[hossblur]

I understand your frustration, I really do but outfitters and auction buyers are not killing our does and fawns………. are they?

What you father was talking about wasn’t just loosing all the buck deer, he was seeing the decline of “all deer”.

Who’s responsible for all the deer?

If 500,000 does produce 150,009 buck deer per year, for us to hunt and kill, how many buck do 250,000 does produce? Half as many……… is that right?

If you and I want to kill more bucks, what has to happen?

Who controls the number of does, fawns and bucks? NOT THE OUTFITTERS AND NOT THE AUCTION BUYERS AND NOT THE CONSERVATION ORGANIZATIONS?

You want more bucks, you know who to call!

We are currently feeding, and losing tons of fawns, due to starvation.

You want 500,000 does, they need land.

This bill gets a little.

 

[bucks]

There is no sure way of fixing this issue,I think that Mother Nature is going to be in charge of the wildlife!

 

[2lumpy]

There is no sure way of fixing this issue,I think that Mother Nature is going to be in charge of the wildlife!

Ya there is, and she’ll let people be in charge, if they want to. “They” don’t!”

 

[slamdunk]

We are currently feeding, and losing tons of fawns, due to starvation.

You want 500,000 does, they need land.

This bill gets a little.

We are taking a hit at the top with old age classes and fawn crops.
We'll feel this one for a few years.

 

[notdonhunting]

For all the guys on this thread that keep saying we need to stop auctioning tags and we need to stop the EXPO.
I got a question.
Who is going to pay for water guzzlers, reseed winter range, emergency feeding of big game during severe winter's, research on why fawns are not even surviving birth or atleast their first day, research on migration paths where and when and many other projects the DWR will never be able to fund.
We as the costumers will never pay the price that the DWR would need to charge.
In my opinion the research they are getting about migration might be one of the most important research that has been done. I personally belive the changing of migration routes is the number one reason the lost of deer herds throughout the west.

 

[elkhunterUT]

For all the guys on this thread that keep saying we need to stop auctioning tags and we need to stop the EXPO.
I got a question.
Who is going to pay for water guzzlers, reseed winter range, emergency feeding of big game during severe winter's, research on why fawns are not even surviving birth or atleast their first day, research on migration paths where and when and many other projects the DWR will never be able to fund.
We as the costumers will never pay the price that the DWR would need to charge.
In my opinion the research they are getting about migration might be one of the most important research that has been done. I personally belive the changing of migration routes is the number one reason the lost of deer herds throughout the west.

I think most guys are ok with the auctioning of SOME tags that yield high $ amounts to generate funds for the things you mentioned, just like all other western states do.

Utah’s approach is beyond crazy with something like 750 auction tags (not sure of the exact #) and 200 expo tags. Let me ask you this-with Utah’s insane # of auction and expo tags, why aren’t things exponentially better in Utah than they are in the surrounding western states that choose to not pimp their wildlife to the highest bidder?

 

[slamdunk]

For all the guys on this thread that keep saying we need to stop auctioning tags and we need to stop the EXPO.
I got a question.
Who is going to pay for water guzzlers, reseed winter range, emergency feeding of big game during severe winter's, research on why fawns are not even surviving birth or atleast their first day, research on migration paths where and when and many other projects the DWR will never be able to fund.
We as the costumers will never pay the price that the DWR would need to charge.
In my opinion the research they are getting about migration might be one of the most important research that has been done. I personally belive the changing of migration routes is the number one reason the lost of deer herds throughout the west.

You're wasting your time, trust me......but thank you ?

 

[slamdunk]

I think most guys are ok with the auctioning of SOME tags that yield high $ amounts to generate funds for the things you mentioned, just like all other western states do.

Utah’s approach is beyond crazy with something like 750 auction tags (not sure of the exact #) and 200 expo tags. Let me ask you this-with Utah’s insane # of auction and expo tags, why aren’t things exponentially better in Utah than they are in the surrounding western states that choose to not pimp their wildlife to the highest bidder?

There are nowhere near 750 auction tags, that's absolutely ridiculous ?

 

[slamdunk]

I think most guys are ok with the auctioning of SOME tags that yield high $ amounts to generate funds for the things you mentioned, just like all other western states do.

Utah’s approach is beyond crazy with something like 750 auction tags (not sure of the exact #) and 200 expo tags. Let me ask you this-with Utah’s insane # of auction and expo tags, why aren’t things exponentially better in Utah than they are in the surrounding western states that choose to not pimp their wildlife to the highest bidder?

Wyoming's herds are crashing just like every western state.
Do you know what they proposed and even their residents blew their corks?
Cutting non-resident tags.....their highest revenue for Wildlife.
Cutting revenue steams is NEVER a good idea.

That is one state that desperately needs conservation dollars.

 

[elkhunterUT]

There are nowhere near 750 auction tags, that's absolutely ridiculous ?

I know there were 542 auction tags in 2012. I think JakeH or someone else recently posted the full list of tags from this year or last year and it was ridiculously long.

What is the exact # slam?

 

[notdonhunting]

I think most guys are ok with the auctioning of SOME tags that yield high $ amounts to generate funds for the things you mentioned, just like all other western states do.

Utah’s approach is beyond crazy with something like 750 auction tags (not sure of the exact #) and 200 expo tags. Let me ask you this-with Utah’s insane # of auction and expo tags, why aren’t things exponentially better in Utah than they are in the surrounding western states that choose to not pimp their wildlife to the highest bidder?

In my opinion migration disruption is the largest cause of declining deer numbers. The landscape and the way Utahs road system has a much greater effect on the natural deer migrations than any other state. A freeway that runs from north to south the length of the State following along the foothills of some of the largest deer and elk herd units. Two other freeways going east to west right through the Wasatch rang and the Manti/Fishlake, the two largest deer and elk herds in the state.

 

[slamdunk]

I know there were 542 auction tags in 2012. I think JakeH or someone else recently posted the full list of tags from this year or last year and it was ridiculously long.

What is the exact # slam?

There are approximately 300 conservation tags, it varies from year to year based on the number of public tags allotted.

For example there are 900 Wasatch elk tags for public draw, 8 Expo tags which is less than 1%.

Other states really do the same thing. They set aside a portion of tags just for guides. New Mexico is 15%. The difference is none of the money from those tags goes back to wildlife like Utah's does.

Conservation is based on the number of public permits with a max of 8 for a limited entry unit.

Honestly if someone will really dig into it. The Utah model gives away less than most states and generated more money for wildlife and habitat work.

 

[notdonhunting]

I am not talking about most of the guys, I could name you several that has posted in this thread that ALL AUCTION TAGS should be stopped.
I have no problem with guys having that opinion and I can understand how they come to that opinion. I even agree with some of the concerns, I personally think the good that comes from the funding of these conservation projects is worth my draw odds being worse by less than a percent of a point. I also know the DWR will not, can not fund most of these projects.

 

[Vanilla]

Slam told us the conservation groups were bringing mega amounts of money to the table so they can’t be shunned. They’ll gladly make up the difference if we take them off the welfare teet. Right Slam?

Of course I’m being sarcastic, but this illustrates my point above very well. I absolutely argue for returning those 530+ expo/conservation permits each year to the public draw. Yes, returning them to the public draw where I believe they belong would shake up the system in a giant way. If we “needed” to auction a smaller number, then let the DWR do it in-house.

 

[Muley_73]

I believe every single one of the tags is available to the public...are they not???

 

[slamdunk]

Slam told us the conservation groups were bringing mega amounts of money to the table so they can’t be shunned. They’ll gladly make up the difference if we take them off the welfare teet. Right Slam?

Of course I’m being sarcastic, but this illustrates my point above very well. I absolutely argue for returning those 530+ expo/conservation permits each year to the public draw. Yes, returning them to the public draw where I believe they belong would shake up the system in a giant way. If we “needed” to auction a smaller number, then let the DWR do it in-house.

Do you seriously think you'd see a measurable, more positive outcome putting those tags into general draw in comparison as far as dollars and benefit comes into play with a 1% tag allocation?

 

[slamdunk]

I believe every single one of the tags is available to the public...are they not???

Absolutely 100%, especially the Expo tags where money doesn't come into play.

Anyone can bid on a conservation tag without physically attending a banquet.

$5 per tag at Expo versus $10 state draw, all of which are public.
No one is forced to enter the Expo to apply for a $5 tag, you just have to walk into the lobby and validate in person.

Guess what?
My own daughter applied for an Expo tag for $5, drew Manti Late elk and we harvested a 382" bull in November.
And you know what else is cool about that?
She's still got 14 regular LE points to draw again!

 

[Vanilla]

And give $3.50 of every $5.00 to SFW to continue to screw us over.

Details matter.

 

[Muley_73]

Slam,
I know they are all public tags. I have drawn an expo tag and so have a lot of my friends and family. Also purchased auction tags as have friends and family. It's mind blowing that some are so narrow minded that they push for those tags to be devalued. The dollars generated by a few support a ton of good that benefit all sportsman....even the ones unwilling to put up true value dollars for those tags.

 

[Muley_73]

And give $3.50 of every $5.00 to SFW to continue to screw us over.

Details matter.

Getting hung up on some details just prevents you from moving forward and having better days....Life advice...for free.

 

[slamdunk]

And give $3.50 of every $5.00 to SFW to continue to screw us over.

Details matter.

Every penny is audited of that $1.75 that goes to SFW.

I know where the other $1.75 goes because I physically put it there.

Hey Niller....I personally invite you to an MDF project this summer to spend those dollars and I'll buy your fuel to get there ?

 

[slamdunk]

In fact, that offer extends to anyone on this forum!

 

[slamdunk]

Slam,
I know they are all public tags. I have drawn an expo tag and so have a lot of my friends and family. Also purchased auction tags as have friends and family. It's mind blowing that some are so narrow minded that they push for those tags to be devalued. The dollars generated by a few support a ton of good that benefit all sportsman....even the ones unwilling to put up true value dollars for those tags.

My son, his wife and three people in my office at work have drawn Expo tags.

Few fail to recognize these are a chance to draw an additional LE tag without losing points.
Regardless of low odds, it's still an opportunity that wouldn't be there without the Expo.

 

[elkassassin]

But Hossy Ain't Happy!

 

[hossblur]

For all the guys on this thread that keep saying we need to stop auctioning tags and we need to stop the EXPO.
I got a question.
Who is going to pay for water guzzlers, reseed winter range, emergency feeding of big game during severe winter's, research on why fawns are not even surviving birth or atleast their first day, research on migration paths where and when and many other projects the DWR will never be able to fund.
We as the costumers will never pay the price that the DWR would need to charge.
In my opinion the research they are getting about migration might be one of the most important research that has been done. I personally belive the changing of migration routes is the number one reason the lost of deer herds throughout the west.

I agree on migration.


But. I spent some time with a waterfowl manager. He ran one of the biggest WMA in the state. He was telling me, his budget issues, including salary issues.

He couldn't get things, so his resource was groups. He also couldn't hire top people, because clubs or the bird refuge wages were much better.

The point being, yes, there needs to be money in the system. But we hire biologists to do a job, pinch their budgets, while millions flow to groups who the biologists we hired are now forced to turn to.

Why did we need to sell off tags, let $fw keep a portion, have them buy a frag mower, so we could mow frag? Kinda seems like we should have just bought a frag mower, and kept the money we paid $fw management for other equipment.

Take MDF new grant. Imagine if that went straight to UDOT, earmarked for highway fence, how much more fencing do we get, using UDOT purchasing power, minus Miles salary?

We auction off the most expensive deer tag in the state on AI, to "save the island?". Yet, when there is a sheep die off, and New sheep bought and transplanted, where were the saviors of the island? KUIU didn't profit from AI tag sells.

The most consequential group in N Utah, for habitat, and hunting acres created, is the Nature Conservancy. They get zero tags.

MDF, who is light-years better than $fw, still spends over a million on salaries and management. Who knows what $fw does. That million buys a lot of highway fence.

The DWR already has that management structure.

So we, because they are our tags, pay 3 management groups. Three leaders. 3 sets of lawyers, etc, etc, etc. That's mismanagement of our money.

And frankly, it's failed. Because as you point out, and I agree, migration destruction has been #1 in the hit to deer, that we can control. Deer still try to migrate across our roads.

But, as we sit here, we don't even have fences, let alone over/underpasses. Despite tens of millions of auctioned off tags. Deer fence state wide isn't nearly as sexy as doing lots of little projects, to little projects, get done while the biggest, and most beneficial doesn't.

We do have pen raised pheasants, which is nice, but which do nothing to "save the mule deer", which is why $fw was handed so much power and money to start with.

 

[hossblur]

My son, his wife and three people in my office at work have drawn Expo tags.

Few fail to recognize these are a chance to draw an additional LE tag without losing points.
Regardless of low odds, it's still an opportunity that wouldn't be there without the Expo.

Imagine not having a points scheme, every year would have huge excitement, knowing you had the same chance as everyone else.

And, 5 people, like Bess, didn't draw for another year to afford them that opportunity. There was a loser in that transaction

 

[hossblur]

But Hossy Ain't Happy!

Perfectly happy. I'm not torn between to lovers

 

[hossblur]

There are nowhere near 750 auction tags, that's absolutely ridiculous ?

How many are there? Over 500, correct?

 

[Keystone]

@slamdunk

I think I talk for a lot of guys in not trusting tge management side of these groups, be it salaries, or vision.

In my thinking, if the RACs git a list of their #1 issue, sent to WB, and tge WB decided the #1 issue, and we auctioned those 200 tags to fund that, more guys, including myself would buy in.

Fencing, which I agree with notdon and hoss, I think is #1, roadkill is a killer we could do something about.

How would it be, if expo 2024(and subsequent expos), all profits from tags will fund fencing. We could accomplish that need, fairly quickly, everyone would know exactly where tge money goes, we wouldn't need 3 presidents, 3 management groups, etc. And, the guys who already support would, and guys like me, hoss. and the majority who don't, might jump in.


The sells job, Tony Abbott and the Don sold, looked more like that vision, than what we have now.


That's my .02

 

[elkantlers]

$5 per tag at Expo versus $10 state draw, all of which are public.
No one is forced to enter the Expo to apply for a $5 tag, you just have to walk into the lobby and validate in peperson.

These tags are mainly for the purpose of getting people to the expo, Wildlife is secondary. If they weren't, they would allow people to apply online without making the trip to the expo to validate. Which, would bring in substantially more money in application fees and more money to wildlife. This was proven when we didn't have to validate during the Covid year.
Making people travel to SLC to Validate an application is extremely unfair to people who live in places like Blanding, St. George, Vernal and many others.

 

[hossblur]

These tags are mainly for the purpose of getting people to the expo, Wildlife is secondary. If they weren't, they would allow people to apply online without making the trip to the expo to validate. Which, would bring in substantially more money in application fees and more money to wildlife. This was proven when we didn't have to validate during the Covid year.
Making people travel to SLC to Validate an application is extremely unfair to people who live in places like Blanding, St. George, Vernal and many others.

Places the hunting actually happens

 

[slamdunk]

Imagine not having a points scheme, every year would have huge excitement, knowing you had the same chance as everyone else.

And, 5 people, like Bess, didn't draw for another year to afford them that opportunity. There was a loser in that transaction

Honestly, I wish we'd go back to a random draw like the good old days.
I remember the excitement of waiting to hear the names called out and it was equally fair across the board.

But......I can say that because I don't have 50% of my life invested in anything but my Bison.

 

[slamdunk]

These tags are mainly for the purpose of getting people to the expo, Wildlife is secondary. If they weren't, they would allow people to apply online without making the trip to the expo to validate. Which, would bring in substantially more money in application fees and more money to wildlife. This was proven when we didn't have to validate during the Covid year.
Making people travel to SLC to Validate an application is extremely unfair to people who live in places like Blanding, St. George, Vernal and many others.

Yes this is correct.
They are still public tags but with a catch of "inconvenience".

Vernal isn't too far, I know @elkassassin makes the annual journey even though he tries to hide wearing full camo ?

 

[slamdunk]

@slamdunk

I think I talk for a lot of guys in not trusting tge management side of these groups, be it salaries, or vision.

In my thinking, if the RACs git a list of their #1 issue, sent to WB, and tge WB decided the #1 issue, and we auctioned those 200 tags to fund that, more guys, including myself would buy in.

Fencing, which I agree with notdon and hoss, I think is #1, roadkill is a killer we could do something about.

How would it be, if expo 2024(and subsequent expos), all profits from tags will fund fencing. We could accomplish that need, fairly quickly, everyone would know exactly where tge money goes, we wouldn't need 3 presidents, 3 management groups, etc. And, the guys who already support would, and guys like me, hoss. and the majority who don't, might jump in.


The sells job, Tony Abbott and the Don sold, looked more like that vision, than what we have now.


That's my .02

Great input and I agree with the highway mortality issue, it's our biggest killer of deer as it doesn't distinguish bucks from does.
It's a free for all Doe hunt 365 days a year.

Having said that, there are a lot of fencing and wildlife crossing projects going on all over the state.
Almost all of the Strawberry Valley on highway 40 is done now for example.
Yes it's a very slow process but there are a lot of obstacles to face with fencing projects, including DOT for one.

And as I have mentioned multiple times, anyone can access the WRI site and see where all these conservation dollars go, including the Expo money.

I feel the DNR would would gain a lot more support if they would make these conservation projects easier and more visible to access by the general public.
Yes I post the WRI website a lot, but only us on the inside (I have barely a toe in)even know about it because we are involved.
I have mentioned and suggested this action before but the feedback I get is basically the same from all entities.
"The handful of opposition doesn't affect the overall success of the process"

 

[SS!]

Wyoming's herds are crashing just like every western state.
Do you know what they proposed and even their residents blew their corks?
Cutting non-resident tags.....their highest revenue for Wildlife.
Cutting revenue steams is NEVER a good idea.

That is one state that desperately needs conservation dollars.

You’re so clueless it’s sad. What did they propose that the residents “blew their corks”?

You don’t even know what unit your tag was good for in WY. Lucky you guys didn’t get caught poaching. You never told me thank you btw.

Stick to UT where the best tag in Utah results in a 160 class buck ?

 

[hossblur]

Great input and I agree with the highway mortality issue, it's our biggest killer of deer as it doesn't distinguish bucks from does.
It's a free for all Doe hunt 365 days a year.

Having said that, there are a lot of fencing and wildlife crossing projects going on all over the state.
Almost all of the Strawberry Valley on highway 40 is done now for example.
Yes it's a very slow process but there are a lot of obstacles to face with fencing projects, including DOT for one.

And as I have mentioned multiple times, anyone can access the WRI site and see where all these conservation dollars go, including the Expo money.

I feel the DNR would would gain a lot more support if they would make these conservation projects easier and more visible to access by the general public.
Yes I post the WRI website a lot, but only us on the inside (I have barely a toe in)even know about it because we are involved.
I have mentioned and suggested this action before but the feedback I get is basically the same from all entities.
"The handful of opposition doesn't affect the overall success of the process"

Kinda the point.

Guzzlers are great. We lose more deer to cars than thirst.

But, guzzlers take better pics, and are sexier than 15 miles of fence between BFE, and BFE.

And yeah, there are hurdles. Imagine, if you would, a group, with their lobbyist so connected the Trump's and Romney's seek him out, working to take down those hurdles, vs creating them.

That's how the tags/expo was sold.

It wasn't sold as a small project here, small one there. With millions spent in salaries and management along the way.

That's not a slap at you, or the dudes on the ground.

The shotgun approach fails because everything gets a "bb", nothing gets " killed".

Or, you don't worry about the roof, before you poor the foundation.

Biggest bang for the buck, is fence. Water and food don't matter to roadkill.

 

[Vanilla]

Stick to UT where the best tag in Utah results in a 160 class buck ?

Yep, only a few of those 160 class bucks left too. All you out of staters need not come here. Nothing to see!

 

[slamdunk]

You’re so clueless it’s sad. What did they propose that the residents “blew their corks”?

You don’t even know what unit your tag was good for in WY. Lucky you guys didn’t get caught poaching. You never told me thank you btw.

Stick to UT where the best tag in Utah results in a 160 class buck ?

YOU, are the epitome of "Clueless" and your baseless attempt at slander shows how small you really are.

Always looking for an argument with absolutely zero reason to even get involved in conversations about wildlife issues in states you don't even reside in.?

I don't owe you a thing, not so much as an internet "Thank You" for anything.

Unless you have anything positive or truly beneficial to spout out of your pie hole, try doing the 99% of us that see right through youre BS comments a favor and refrain from wasting bandwidth.

I've already told you I didn't even have a Wyoming tag, I was along for a ride and it was July.

Retract your strutting feathers, you're just a pigeon under the bridge.

 

[notdonhunting]

We auction off the most expensive deer tag in the state on AI, to "save the island?". Yet, when there is a sheep die off, and New sheep bought and transplanted, where were the saviors of the island? KUIU didn't profit from AI tag sells.

Correct me if I am wrong hossblur, but SFW or MDF don't profit from the sale of the AI tag.
That money goes to the AI state park the state park that is under the DNR.
But we are supposed to trust the DWR at handling all the Conservation Tags. The DWR is just another agency under the DNR.
KUIU stepped up and purchased sheep, but that doesn't mean SFW would not have stepped up and purchased new sheep.
I say thanks KUIU.
The DWR will never be able to help with conservation projects as good as these conservation organizations do. The fact is the DWR has a tight budget and outside resources brought in will only go right into there budget and the ones that control the budget will see this as a excuse to cut the budget.
Again I can totally understand the guys that are saying put the permits back into the draw system for all, but the guys that think the DWR could auction permits are being pretty naive at best.
I agree we should have a priority list that these conservation organizations should follow, maybe something like a 80 percent go to priority and 20 pervent goes to pet project let's fight for something like that, fighting to stop them is not going to happen.

 

[slamdunk]

@notdonhunting
You are correct....not a dime of that AI tag goes to any conservation group.

 

[Vanilla]

It’s interesting that those of us that think the money should stay in house and not make the Don Peays of the world rich, yet you cite an example of entirely outside money (what I’m asking to happen across the board) from Kuiu with absolutely zero strings attached.

No demand for expo contracts to get rich. No demand for publicly owned conservation tags to auction off to pretend they were bringing money to the table to “help” the DWR, they just did it.

Exactly what I’m asking others to do, but I guess I am naive to think that people can actually do things without handouts from the government and robbing the public. Because Kuiu didn’t do it…wait.

Nope, not naive. A wishful thinker, maybe, but what I’m saying is 100% possible.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Niller?

You Got Stock in Kuiu?

It’s interesting that those of us that think the money should stay in house and not make the Don Peays of the world rich, yet you cite an example of entirely outside money (what I’m asking to happen across the board) from Kuiu with absolutely zero strings attached.

No demand for expo contracts to get rich. No demand for publicly owned conservation tags to auction off to pretend they were bringing money to the table to “help” the DWR, they just did it.

Exactly what I’m asking others to do, but I guess I am naive to think that people can actually do things without handouts from the government and robbing the public. Because Kuiu didn’t do it…wait.

Nope, not naive. A wishful thinker, maybe, but what I’m saying is 100% possible.

 

[notdonhunting]

It’s interesting that those of us that think the money should stay in house and not make the Don Peays of the world rich, yet you cite an example of entirely outside money (what I’m asking to happen across the board) from Kuiu with absolutely zero strings attached.

No demand for expo contracts to get rich. No demand for publicly owned conservation tags to auction off to pretend they were bringing money to the table to “help” the DWR, they just did it.

Exactly what I’m asking others to do, but I guess I am naive to think that people can actually do things without handouts from the government and robbing the public. Because Kuiu didn’t do it…wait.

Nope, not naive. A wishful thinker, maybe, but what I’m saying is 100% possible.

Possible? Yes
Probable? Not likely
I don't see companies lining up to feed the deer through this rough winter
I don't see companies lining up to fund fencing
Who is going to oversee the funding that would come in from outside sources. It will take multiple companies every year?
Is the DWR going to create a department just to oversee this funding and where this funding is going to be spent?
The DNR already auctions off a deer permit to help fund projects for Antelope Island, I wonder what that money has been spent on. KUIU bought the sheep.

 

[middlefork]

Every company exhibiting could divert dollars from the convention to on the ground projects in leu of exhibiting if it made sense to them. One decided it did

There would be no convention if there were no tags involved.

There is a "department" already within the DWR that approves projects..

 

[middlefork]

Mule Deer Foundation
Joel Pedersen
(801) 973-3940
[email protected]
Booth # 1605
Sportsmen for Fish & Wildlife
Troy Justensen
(801) 557-3362
[email protected]
Booth # 1405
Permit provided by the Utah Division of Wildlife Resources and Utah State Parks.
You will not want to pass up the opportunity to hunt Antelope Island! The Mule Deer on the
Island are World Class! We would like to thank the Utah Legislature and Utah State Parks for
allowing this unique opportunity. Only two tags will be available for Mule Deer on the Island,
one bid tag and one public draw tag. 90% of the proceeds will go back to improve habitat on the
Island and benefit Mule Deer translocations throughout the state.
Season Dates: November 13 -20, 2023

 

[elkassassin]

World Class Huh?

Well!

Maybe In Today's World!

 

[slamdunk]

Every company exhibiting could divert dollars from the convention to on the ground projects in leu of exhibiting if it made sense to them. One decided it did

There would be no convention if there were no tags involved.

There is a "department" already within the DWR that approves projects..

I don't believe this for even a minute.
Hunting conventions are huge regardless of tags.

SCI blows our Expo out of the water.
How many of us on here belong or support SCI?

 

[hossblur]

@notdonhunting
You are correct....not a dime of that AI tag goes to any conservation group.

Another part of the controversy surrounding the permits is that people have misconceptions of where the money goes, Shaw said. Ninety percent of the proceeds from the Antelope Island State Park mule deer and bighorn sheep permits go back to the island and pays for conservation and habitat projects for the wildlife, and the other 10 percent of the proceeds go to DWR and Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife to cover costs associated with hosting the auction, he said.

-ksl

Well, maybe not a dime, but this year $fw grabbed $50k from Jimmy Johns?

 

[middlefork]

I don't believe this for even a minute.
Hunting conventions are huge regardless of tags.

SCI blows our Expo out of the water.
How many of us on here belong or support SCI?

SCI is pretty much $$$$ hunting.

 

[gundog2]

Looks like this thread went sideways, but I will pile on. Conservation groups have convinced Utah hunters that we need to pimp off 500 conservation permits and 200 expo permits to maintain the wildlife. No other state would allow this. Has it really made hunting or wildlife better off? I have my doubts. We have to shake up the rules every two or three years to appease a lot of unsatisfied hunters. We keep taking the bait, but things keep getting worse. I will be interested to see how the new elk plan plays out. My expectations are lower than ever.

 

[hossblur]

Possible? Yes
Probable? Not likely
I don't see companies lining up to feed the deer through this rough winter
I don't see companies lining up to fund fencing
Who is going to oversee the funding that would come in from outside sources. It will take multiple companies every year?
Is the DWR going to create a department just to oversee this funding and where this funding is going to be spent?
The DNR already auctions off a deer permit to help fund projects for Antelope Island, I wonder what that money has been spent on. KUIU bought the sheep.

How much feed do you think the deer could get for $fw and MDF cut of the expo? How about just for what they each spend on salaries and lobbyists? With nearly all of their funding coming via conservation tags.

The tag on AI was auctioned off to give Don Peays friends, and supporters the easiest trophy deer hunt in the west. Along with a 10% cut of the proceeds.

Funding the island, was tossed in to try and appease all the voices opposed, including the cities county, tourism board.

The draw tag got tossed in to shut up the avg Joe.

Peay even got his good friend Karl Malone to talk about how much he'd pay to hunt the island in the press to "educate" the legislature.

He was playing chess, while naively we played checkers.

Correct me if I am wrong hossblur, but SFW or MDF don't profit from the sale of the AI tag.
That money goes to the AI state park the state park that is under the DNR.
But we are supposed to trust the DWR at handling all the Conservation Tags. The DWR is just another agency under the DNR.
KUIU stepped up and purchased sheep, but that doesn't mean SFW would not have stepped up and purchased new sheep.
I say thanks KUIU.
The DWR will never be able to help with conservation projects as good as these conservation organizations do. The fact is the DWR has a tight budget and outside resources brought in will only go right into there budget and the ones that control the budget will see this as a excuse to cut the budget.
Again I can totally understand the guys that are saying put the permits back into the draw system for all, but the guys that think the DWR could auction permits are being pretty naive at best.
I agree we should have a priority list that these conservation organizations should follow, maybe something like a 80 percent go to priority and 20 pervent goes to pet project let's fight for something like that, fighting to stop them is not going to happen.

We are supposed to trust private interest groups, who we don't elect and have no say over with tags?

$fw didn't buy sheep, because they didn't want to. Sheep cost money. What they did do was provide a trailer, and a big banner so it looked like they were doing something.

 

[hossblur]

Looks like this thread went sideways, but I will pile on. Conservation groups have convinced Utah hunters that we need to pimp off 500 conservation permits and 200 expo permits to maintain the wildlife. No other state would allow this. Has it really made hunting or wildlife better off? I have my doubts. We have to shake up the rules every two or three years to appease a lot of unsatisfied hunters. We keep taking the bait, but things keep getting worse. I will be interested to see how the new elk plan plays out. My expectations are lower than ever.

Kind of. But the point is, MDF, which is almost completely funded via the legislature, decided to publically bite the hand that feeds it, and in doing so, hurt the conservation movement it supposedly champions.

@slamdunk, who is a great dude, and great advocate for MDF, is doing a yeomans job, trying to deflect incoming.

But, imo, the takeaway is simple. Don't talk about "the legislature not being involved", after you take the government cheese. MDF and $fw survive solely on gov cheese.

 

[Vanilla]

Yep, the Island is still a 90:10 split.

And yep, MDF very much bit the hand that feeds it on this issue. It still bugs me they’d do this. This thread has turned into an expo bash, but if you can’t see how it’s all related, then you’ve got to open your eyes.

I’ll get back to my original message back in the first few posts of the thread: It’s easy for MDF to ask the governor to veto a bill that will provide direct benefit to hunters and anglers in Utah to the tune of millions over time that have never been appropriated before when they know the state is going to still hand out eggs to them from the golden goose for free each year. I wonder if the legislature would have done this and sent the money to MDF foundation instead of just the lowly peasants if this same letter would have come out?

This letter asking the governor to veto this bill reeks of hypocrisy.

 

[slamdunk]

Another part of the controversy surrounding the permits is that people have misconceptions of where the money goes, Shaw said. Ninety percent of the proceeds from the Antelope Island State Park mule deer and bighorn sheep permits go back to the island and pays for conservation and habitat projects for the wildlife, and the other 10 percent of the proceeds go to DWR and Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife to cover costs associated with hosting the auction, he said.

-ksl

Well, maybe not a dime, but this year $fw grabbed $50k from Jimmy Johns?

Yes, my bad, you are correct.
I was not clear on the question and therefore gave the wrong answer.

What I meant was all the funds from the deer tag goes back to the island to fund the island, not spread out to other projects across the state.

Even at that, 10% "fee", .89 cents of every dollar goes back into conservation and it IS audited.

 

[slamdunk]

Yep, the Island is still a 90:10 split.

And yep, MDF very much bit the hand that feeds it on this issue. It still bugs me they’d do this. This thread has turned into an expo bash, but if you can’t see how it’s all related, then you’ve got to open your eyes.

I’ll get back to my original message back in the first few posts of the thread: It’s easy for MDF to ask the governor to veto a bill that will provide direct benefit to hunters and anglers in Utah to the tune of millions over time that have never been appropriated before when they know the state is going to still hand out eggs to them from the golden goose for free each year. I wonder if the legislature would have done this and sent the money to MDF foundation instead of just the lowly peasants if this same letter would have come out?

This letter asking the governor to veto this bill reeks of hypocrisy.

That letters intent is being twisted.

MDF is not against what was inside the bill, not at all.

If you read the letter, it clearly describes the MDF's disagreement on how items within the bill were "slipped in" without going through the process designed for Wildlife policies.

 

[elkhunterUT]

That letters intent is being twisted.

MDF is not against what was inside the bill, not at all.

If you read the letter, it clearly describes the MDF's disagreement on how items within the bill were "slipped in" without going through the process designed for Wildlife policies.

The hypocrisy called out in this thread though is that MDF and SFW have been involved in plenty of situations where they also “slipped in” something outside of normal process. Seems to be the way things work in this state ??‍

I personally was upset about what got slipped in HB469 as well-I wish the nonsense would stop in all instances!

 

[hossblur]

Yes, my bad, you are correct.
I was not clear on the question and therefore gave the wrong answer.

What I meant was all the funds from the deer tag goes back to the island to fund the island, not spread out to other projects across the state.

Even at that, 10% "fee", .89 cents of every dollar goes back into conservation and it IS audited.

You truly believe $fw does anything to warrant $50k on that tag? Seriously?

That island grows some of, if not the biggest deer in the state. It was long before THE DON.

Further. Show me where, on that island, habitat work has accomplished anything?

It hasn't. The herd remains basically the same size. There's only so much fresh water. There's only so much ground suitable for deer or sheep. It's geologically limited.

It's a joke, and everyone knows it. It is exactly what it is. The easiest trophy deer hunt in the west, close to an international airport, a freeway, luxury hotels, and good food.

For the amount of "conservation" money that has been raised out there, it should be the actual "Serengeti of the West".

The Don did what he does best, securing GOVERNMENT handouts to finance his private interests. Using naive and gullible legislators by blowing "conservation" up their butts.

Sorry @slamdunk, but MDF trying to destroy millions in habitat acquisition is a jump the shark moment. Especially under the guise of limited government interaction.

And yeah, I agree 100% with Vanilla. Had MDF got 10% fee and control of this new habitat money, they'd been issuing press releases praising Snider and the Governor.


If MDF is truly anti legislator involvement, walk away from the expo, funded via "elevate Utah", the DWR, Salt Lake city and county tax concessions, and take a stand against gov intervention in wildlife issues.

Whoever decided to release that letter, should be terminated.

 

[hossblur]

Further. We are supposedly hunters. We all know, their will be nearly zero cats killed via the new law. We know this because none of us were killing cats previously. Snider was 100% correct, as was the Governor in noting that it wasnt worth destroying the bill, for something that amounted to nothing

 

[hossblur]

I should be terminated for that horrible sentence.????. I edited it????

 

[slamdunk]

Further. We are supposedly hunters. We all know, their will be nearly zero cats killed via the new law. We know this because none of us were killing cats previously. Snider was 100% correct, as was the Governor in noting that it wasnt worth destroying the bill, for something that amounted to nothing

I cannot argue this point and I agree.
I've been saying the same thing to people about the cat's won't even be affected by this.

 

[slamdunk]

I should be terminated for that horrible sentence.????. I edited it????

Lol.....no worries, I'm guilty myself for long sentences ?

 

[slamdunk]

You truly believe $fw does anything to warrant $50k on that tag? Seriously?

FWIW these funds were split 50/50 between SFW/MDF.
I know where the MDF $25k portion goes.
$2,750 goes into administrative, $22,250 goes into the ground and yes, that is audited as well.
I can't account for SFW.

That island grows some of, if not the biggest deer in the state. It was long before THE DON.

Those deer weren't hunted until 2011

Further. Show me where, on that island, habitat work has accomplished anything?

It hasn't. The herd remains basically the same size. There's only so much fresh water. There's only so much ground suitable for deer or sheep. It's geologically limited.

I cannot vouch for how the money is spent on AI, nor do I know if any is spent specifically for the deer.
My guess is no, as the focus in on the Bighorn Sheep.

It's a joke, and everyone knows it. It is exactly what it is. The easiest trophy deer hunt in the west, close to an international airport, a freeway, luxury hotels, and good food.

For the amount of "conservation" money that has been raised out there, it should be the actual "Serengeti of the West".

The Don did what he does best, securing GOVERNMENT handouts to finance his private interests. Using naive and gullible legislators by blowing "conservation" up their butts.

Sorry @slamdunk, but MDF trying to destroy millions in habitat acquisition is a jump the shark moment. Especially under the guise of limited government interaction.

And yeah, I agree 100% with Vanilla. Had MDF got 10% fee and control of this new habitat money, they'd been issuing press releases praising Snider and the Governor.


If MDF is truly anti legislator involvement, walk away from the expo, funded via "elevate Utah", the DWR, Salt Lake city and county tax concessions, and take a stand against gov intervention in wildlife issues.

Whoever decided to release that letter, should be terminated.

I have no comments for these last few phrases and I won't attempt to just guess ?

 

[notdonhunting]

Hossblur you always forget include all partners.
You quote tge KSL article of 10 percent split between DWR & SFW but them you go to on only day SFW is getting 10 percent. You have no idea what that 10 percent split is.
When ever you talk about the expo you always mention that the SFW takes $3.50 of the application fees you never mention it is actually only $1.75 and MDF takes $1.75
AI is a prime example of why I do not want government running the system of funding conservation projects. The government will always have too consider all special interest groups and they will be building transgender bathrooms instead of planting bitter brush.

Fixed $1.50 to 1.75

 

[slamdunk]

Hossblur you always forget include all partners.
You quote tge KSL article of 10 percent split between DWR & SFW but them you go to on only day SFW is getting 10 percent. You have no idea what that 10 percent split is.
When ever you talk about the expo you always mention that the SFW takes $3.50 of the application fees you never mention it is actually only $1.50 and MDF takes $1.50
AI is a prime example of why I do not want government running the system of funding conservation projects. The government will always have too consider all special interest groups and they will be building transgender bathrooms instead of planting bitter brush.

And again for the record, .89 cents of that $1.50 is audited to ensure where it goes.

 

[Vanilla]

That letters intent is being twisted.

MDF is not against what was inside the bill, not at all.

They may not have been against the contents, but they asked the governor to not allow the contents to become law. There is no twisting here. That is what happened, and that is a big deal to me.

Like I said from the beginning, it’s easy to take money out of other people’s pocket when yours (MDF, not you slam) is secure. This act by MDF will stick in my craw for a long time. They have some repairing of trust to do. Like I said early in this thread, I’ve always appreciated their transparency and have considered them different than the other group. This letter went a long way to destroying that belief for me.

The appropriations in this bill will DIRECTLY impact the average hunter and fisher (not just the wealthy that can afford to buy their way in) like so much other money we’ve talked about in this thread. These appropriations are unprecedented in Utah. And MDF publicly asked for the governor to veto them. That is what happened. That is not twisted at all. They may have had other reasons, but I couldn’t care less what the reasons were, this is what they asked the governor to do.

Easy to do that when the millions coming their way once again this year off the government welfare teet was not at risk at all.

Man, I had shifted my focus to my annoyance with SFW honks not being willing to admit how they’ve been lied to and screwed over all these years, and now I’m back to my annoyance at MDF in their selfish and hypocritical move on this one. Thanks for getting me back on track, all!

 

[elkassassin]

50K Hossy?

You Might Wanna Study That Just A Little!

Another part of the controversy surrounding the permits is that people have misconceptions of where the money goes, Shaw said. Ninety percent of the proceeds from the Antelope Island State Park mule deer and bighorn sheep permits go back to the island and pays for conservation and habitat projects for the wildlife, and the other 10 percent of the proceeds go to DWR and Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife to cover costs associated with hosting the auction, he said.

-ksl

Well, maybe not a dime, but this year $fw grabbed $50k from Jimmy Johns?

 

[hossblur]

Hossblur you always forget include all partners.
You quote tge KSL article of 10 percent split between DWR & SFW but them you go to on only day SFW is getting 10 percent. You have no idea what that 10 percent split is.
When ever you talk about the expo you always mention that the SFW takes $3.50 of the application fees you never mention it is actually only $1.50 and MDF takes $1.50
AI is a prime example of why I do not want government running the system of funding conservation projects. The government will always have too consider all special interest groups and they will be building transgender bathrooms instead of planting bitter brush.

You are correct. I try to give MDF a break

Want to know why?

It's 9:36, Sat.

Check the time of the response.

Can someone show me where MDF expo money goes?

Same question for $fw

 

[slamdunk]

They may not have been against the contents, but they asked the governor to not allow the contents to become law. There is no twisting here. That is what happened, and that is a big deal to me.

Like I said from the beginning, it’s easy to take money out of other people’s pocket when yours (MDF, not you slam) is secure. This act by MDF will stick in my craw for a long time. They have some repairing of trust to do. Like I said early in this thread, I’ve always appreciated their transparency and have considered them different than the other group. This letter went a long way to destroying that belief for me.

The appropriations in this bill will DIRECTLY impact the average hunter and fisher (not just the wealthy that can afford to buy their way in) like so much other money we’ve talked about in this thread. These appropriations are unprecedented in Utah. And MDF publicly asked for the governor to veto them. That is what happened. That is not twisted at all. They may have had other reasons, but I couldn’t care less what the reasons were, this is what they asked the governor to do.

Easy to do that when the millions coming their way once again this year off the government welfare teet was not at risk at all.

Man, I had shifted my focus to my annoyance with SFW honks not being willing to admit how they’ve been lied to and screwed over all these years, and now I’m back to my annoyance at MDF in their selfish and hypocritical move on this one. Thanks for getting me back on track, all!

It'll be interesting to see how this will play out, I see and understand your points.

I will be at the SLC banquet all day today, I'll try to get some clear answers from the financial team that will be there.....I need educated in this as much as anyone if not more.

 

[elkassassin]

You truly believe $fw does anything to warrant $50k on that tag? Seriously?

That island grows some of, if not the biggest deer in the state. It was long before THE DON.

50K?

GEEZUS Hossy!

Pay Attention!

Further. Show me where, on that island, habitat work has accomplished anything?

It hasn't. The herd remains basically the same size. There's only so much fresh water. There's only so much ground suitable for deer or sheep. It's geologically limited.

It's a joke, and everyone knows it. It is exactly what it is. The easiest trophy deer hunt in the west, close to an international airport, a freeway, luxury hotels, and good food.

For the amount of "conservation" money that has been raised out there, it should be the actual "Serengeti of the West".

The Don did what he does best, securing GOVERNMENT handouts to finance his private interests. Using naive and gullible legislators by blowing "conservation" up their butts.

Sorry @slamdunk, but MDF trying to destroy millions in habitat acquisition is a jump the shark moment. Especially under the guise of limited government interaction.

And yeah, I agree 100% with Vanilla. Had MDF got 10% fee and control of this new habitat money, they'd been issuing press releases praising Snider and the Governor.


If MDF is truly anti legislator involvement, walk away from the expo, funded via "elevate Utah", the DWR, Salt Lake city and county tax concessions, and take a stand against gov intervention in wildlife issues.

Whoever decided to release that letter, should be terminated.

 

[slamdunk]

You are correct. I try to give MDF a break

Want to know why?

It's 9:36, Sat.

Check the time of the response.

Can someone show me where MDF expo money goes?

Same question for $fw

Look at the WRI site.....

 

[elkassassin]

Hossy Is Gonna Have A COME-APART When He Finds Out There's Another 0 Involved!

 

[hossblur]

50K?

GEEZUS Hossy!

Pay Attention!

10% of $500,000 is $50k

 

[2lumpy]

I don't believe this for even a minute.
Hunting conventions are huge regardless of tags.

SCI blows our Expo out of the water.
How many of us on here belong or support SCI?

The taxidermy at the SCI certainly does, the evening dinner and auction is more of a “who’s who” in the International hunting world, as far as the donations that are made by way of the auction, the Expo holds its own. The SCI auctioneer looks, dresses and acts more like Buffalo Bill Cody at a Wild West Show…… I prefer John at the Expo. The dinner dress attire and the trophy ladies……… well….. that’s where the Expo fails miserably.

I’m not a member of SCI but I have paid dearly a couple times to watch the very wealthy party……. They do it well. Not my thing….. but they do a respectable job protecting the hunting legacy and the rest of us hillbilly’s should be grateful for their long history …… their contributions, monetarily and politically. They do stand in the gate, on a lot of issues, in our behalf.

 

[hossblur]

Look at the WRI site.....

@notdonhunting

THIS is why I give MDF a break. Transparent and easy accounting.

Jump on $fw site, see if you can find similar

 

[2lumpy]

Lol.....no worries, I'm guilty myself for long sentences ?

Long sentences…….. I thought that was a virtue.

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Hossy?

You Thinkin There Might Be a PEAYDAY Involved?

@notdonhunting

THIS is why I give MDF a break. Transparent and easy accounting.

Jump on $fw site, see if you can find similar

 

[hossblur]

Hey Hossy?

You Thinkin There Might Be a PEAYDAY Involved?

The org runs the way the founder designed it to

 

[hossblur]

Hossblur you always forget include all partners.
You quote tge KSL article of 10 percent split between DWR & SFW but them you go to on only day SFW is getting 10 percent. You have no idea what that 10 percent split is.
When ever you talk about the expo you always mention that the SFW takes $3.50 of the application fees you never mention it is actually only $1.75 and MDF takes $1.75
AI is a prime example of why I do not want government running the system of funding conservation projects. The government will always have too consider all special interest groups and they will be building transgender bathrooms instead of planting bitter brush.

Fixed $1.50 to 1.75

Honestly.

Why does Salt Lake City reap the benefit from tags auctioned in your neighborhood?

Seriously. What did 12 mile, or 6 mile, gain from giving up bulls on it? Specifically?

Farmington Bay, has gotten a lot out of the frag mower, no doubt, and Ogden Bay has gotten dike work, funded partially by $fw, so at least they are seeing something from the deer it gave up.

Salt Lake City made bank. What elk did it give up?

If the Manti or Beaver, or where ever, is gonna give up 5 or 6 figure tags than those units should see 100% of the proceeds.

Not 80 or 90, 100%

In the least.

And yes, the fund from selling the tags can be earmarked, not for transgender toilets or even salaries.

Could get Snider to champion the effort, think $fw/MDF would support it?

Why not? It would be for wildlife after all

 

[slamdunk]

Honestly.

Why does Salt Lake City reap the benefit from tags auctioned in your neighborhood?

Seriously. What did 12 mile, or 6 mile, gain from giving up bulls on it? Specifically?

Farmington Bay, has gotten a lot out of the frag mower, no doubt, and Ogden Bay has gotten dike work, funded partially by $fw, so at least they are seeing something from the deer it gave up.

Salt Lake City made bank. What elk did it give up?

If the Manti or Beaver, or where ever, is gonna give up 5 or 6 figure tags than those units should see 100% of the proceeds.

Not 80 or 90, 100%

In the least.

And yes, the fund from selling the tags can be earmarked, not for transgender toilets or even salaries.

Could get Snider to champion the effort, think $fw/MDF would support it?

Why not? It would be for wildlife after all

If 100% goes back in, who pays for the venues of these auctions and the personnel to run them?
Guys like me are "volunteer", as are the majority of the staff "doing the Lord's work" if you will.

I don't know what Bair gets paid nor do I care because he IS the face of the WHCE and does an impeccable job.

If you dig into the transparent financials, the top end employees aren't getting rich my no means.
The guy on top always makes the most in any business model, but I guarantee you it's not even remotely as close to what most people may think.
Regional Directors are in the 50-60k range. I know this because I see the job postings.

Anyone who seriously thinks the RMEF wouldn't have made profits off taking over the Expo, you're not thinking clearly.

Would you do it for free?
No....

The RMEF didn't come to the table with a clear business model package.
It is required to have TWO entities doing the Expo.
Not only did they not have one, when they were asked who their partner group was, they said "MDF" which was absolutely never negotiated.

 

[hossblur]

If 100% goes back in, who pays for the venues of these auctions and the personnel to run them?
Guys like me are "volunteer", as are the majority of the staff "doing the Lord's work" if you will.

I don't know what Bair gets paid nor do I care because he IS the face of the WHCE and does an impeccable job.

If you dig into the transparent financials, the top end employees aren't getting rich my no means.
The guy on top always makes the most in any business model, but I guarantee you it's not even remotely as close to what most people may think.
Regional Directors are in the 50-60k range. I know this because I see the job postings.

Well, I'm assuming the dudes in tan shirts taking vouchers, were already paid for from the DWR?

But frankly, I don't give a flying crap. Why are we selling animals to pay for a vendor and trade show? Does autorama get tags?

You truly believe if those tags were on an online auction site, they wouldn't fetch similar numbers?

The tags sold at the rmef banquets I go to, have never been bought by someone at a table, always via proxy.

And I don't care who brings the hookers and blow for @fstop and @founder?

 

[elkassassin]

Looks Like They Did Throw Some Money To Improve Your QUACKER Hunting Hossy?

 

[slamdunk]

Well, I'm assuming the dudes in tan shirts taking vouchers, were already paid for from the DWR?

But frankly, I don't give a flying crap. Why are we selling animals to pay for a vendor and trade show? Does autorama get tags?

You truly believe if those tags were on an online auction site, they wouldn't fetch similar numbers?

The tags sold at the rmef banquets I go to, have never been bought by someone at a table, always via proxy.

And I don't care who brings the hookers and blow for @fstop and @founder?

Of course those tags would fetch the same numbers, but who's going to do it, the DWR?
They don't even have enough man power to police the hunting units, let alone assign the manpower and time to conduct these multiple auctions all around the state at 8pm.
These auctions are bounced around the state to allow tags to be auctioned in those respective regions, it would be a catastrophe trying to auction them all in one online event.....my head hurts even trying to fathom how this would work since I myself work these auctions.
I'm working the SLC banquet auction tonight in fact.

 

[hossblur]

Yup. The frag mower is a great thing.

But if that's the standard, DU will be needing some tags