MDF ASKS FOR HB469 VETO

slamdunk

slamdunk

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We cannot let rational wildlife bills become law by "slipping them through the cracks".
Extremely slippery slope!
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I guess MDF is ready to give back $1m per year to the DWR specifically for hunting and fishing access that vetoing will take from Utah sportsmen if this bill doesn’t become law?

The process on one aspect of this bill sucked, no doubt. The rest of the bill is extremely beneficial to Utah fish and wildlife and Utah sportsmen. Feels like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Organizations that have benefitted immensely off the welfare tag system Utah created for them that are now advocating for me as an Utah sportsman to lose $1m per year of ongoing and non-lapsing funding sticks in my craw. It really, really bothers me.
 
Vanilla said:
I guess MDF is ready to give back $1m per year to the DWR specifically for hunting and fishing access that vetoing will take from Utah sportsmen if this bill doesn’t become law?

The process on one aspect of this bill sucked, no doubt. The rest of the bill is extremely beneficial to Utah fish and wildlife and Utah sportsmen. Feels like cutting off your nose to spite your face.

Organizations that have benefitted immensely off the welfare tag system Utah created for them that are now advocating for me as an Utah sportsman to lose $1m per year of ongoing and non-lapsing funding sticks in my craw. It really, really bothers me.
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That’s what makes this move by Snider so dirty. He snuck this into a bill that would be tough to veto. It’s good ole boy at its best and the process they skipped is important.

If the WB votes for the same outcome then I would be fine with it. At least then it went through the process of proper management.
 
Silentstalker said:
That’s what makes this move by Snider so dirty. He snuck this into a bill that would be tough to veto. It’s good ole boy at its best and the process they skipped is important.

If the WB votes for the same outcome then I would be fine with it. At least then it went through the process of proper management.
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Thank you.....exactly what I about to say.
 
From what I have been told, Sen Sandall is who slipped this in, not Rep Snider.

Not that it changes the process, but it should change who gets your ire.

And again, for all those who are asking this to be vetoed, are you making up the difference? We’re talking millions upon millions of dollars over time you’re asking the governor to single-handedly decide we shouldn’t get. You making up for it?
 
I didn't see anything in the bill that says that the WB/DWR can't regulate cougar hunting. Only that they can be hunted year around with a hunting license.
 
Sandall/Snider - they are both sponsors of this bill. If it was Sandall then shame on him.

Funding and what’s good about this bill is no reason to except what happened. If it’s vetoed - that’s on Sandall and Snider not on the public asking for the process to be followed.
 
Is MDF now going to change its name MLF (Mountain Lion Foundation)? Will this bill hurt or help mule deer? Will this bill hurt our help mountain lions? Was MDF equally concerned about following the proper process when the last Expo Contract was awarded? Did MDF express outrage when the DWR and WB failed to follow their own administrative rules?

Selective outrage at its best.

Hawkeye
 
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SureShot said:
It wasn't vetoed. It was signed today. Yeehaw!
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Fantastic! However one feels about the flawed process of the lion portion of this bill, this legislation is groundbreaking for the state of Utah for all the parts that did go through the better process. I applaud everyone involved in making that happen.

elkassassin said:
Hey Niller!


This SLIPPING SHHIT IN Has Gotta STOP!
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Could not agree more bessy! If you knew how much YOUR legislature does this on issues all across the board, your head would explode. This isn’t a new practice in the legislature, and it drives me nuts each time.

Hawkeye said:
Is MDF now going to change its name MLF (Mountain Lion Foundation)? Will this bill hurt or help mule deer? Will this bill hurt our help mountain lions? Was MDF equally concerned about following the proper process when the last Expo Contract was awarded? Did the express outrage when the DWR and WB failed to follow their own administrative rules?

Selective outrage at its best.

Hawkeye
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I’ve got to tell ya, I’ve always looked at MDF differently than that “other” organization. This one rubs me the wrong way BIG time! It’s time to get all these “conservation” organizations off the government welfare teet, particularly when they do things that actively hurt public sportsmen. Very disappointing, indeed. There needs to be some recourse here…we’ll see how that can happen.
 
No words needed. These two had Sherbert and now Cox in the palm of there hands. Credit to MDF for at least having a stance, and making a meaningful public statement on the matter.

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TheOneRidgeRunner said:
Done. Lions Unprotected

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We don't care that they are unprotected, that's not the point.
The MDF has spent millions of dollars in cooperation with the DNR and outside biologist on collaring studies of thousands of big game showing the damage predators are doing on our big game and we have supported every measure to get their numbers at rock bottom to help wildlife rebound.
This proposed Veto was because of how it was implemented.
 
slamdunk said:
We don't care that they are unprotected, that's not the point.
The MDF has spent millions of dollars in cooperation with the DNR and outside biologist on collaring studies of thousands of big game showing the damage predators are doing on our big game and we have supported every measure to get their numbers at rock bottom to help wildlife rebound.
This proposed Veto was because of how it was implemented.
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I feel there was a lot better way to go about fixing the Lion issue than cutting Utah hunters and anglers from groundbreaking resources Utah has never invested in previously.

But I guess when we use public resources to hand MDF millions of dollars, they don’t have to worry about where the money will come from. That must be nice.

Seriously too bad they pulled this crap.
 
Vanilla said:
I feel there was a lot better way to go about fixing the Lion issue than cutting Utah hunters and anglers from groundbreaking resources Utah has never invested in previously.

But I guess when we use public resources to hand MDF millions of dollars, they don’t have to worry about where the money will come from. That must be nice.

Seriously too bad they pulled this crap.
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I respect your view...
 
MDF needs to stick to what they know. Fleecing money from people under the disguise of conservation.

MDF , the original SFW
 
MDF seems to be mostly outraged that a positive development for sportsman did not happen due to their influence. The "normal" process involves back room deals and influence peddling by MDF and SWF. They are just butt hurt that something good happened without them, and they are afraid their power will continue to suffer.
Bill
 
MDF founded in 1988. Now currently has 12,000 members
RMEF found in 1984 - over 220,000 members

Not sure if the stance of the MDF is worth starting a thread for.
 
What agenda item will be slipped in next? My bet is eventually we lose baiting bears, then hounds, then wolves will be slipped in. Niller let us know how that money your bent on will be spent. Keeping legislators like Snider out of the picture is worth millions imo.....but too late now.

I do agree MDF stance is hypocritical crying overreach now. Where were they two years ago when the trail cam, bait ban was shoved down our throats? You same mamby pamby boobs were Sniders biggest fan girls on that agenda item.
 
elkassassin said:
I'm Placing Money Bets RIGHT PFUCKING NOW With Whoever Wants To Wager Some Cash This Un-Limited Lion Hunt Doesn't Fix The Deer Herd!
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It certainly won’t hurt our deer herds.

Elkster, for someone who constantly bitches and moans about the piss-poor condition of our deer herds, you sure are worried about our struggling and endangered mountain lion population.

Hawkeye
 
You Wagering Some GREENBACK With Me Or Not hawkeye?



Hawkeye said:
It certainly won’t hurt our deer herds.

Elkster, for someone who constantly bitches and moans about the piss-poor condition of our deer herds, you sure are worried about our struggling and endangered mountain lion population.

Hawkeye
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Sorry slam, but can MDF point to the section of the north American model that discusses selling off 200+ tags to special interest groups?

Or, can you point us to the objection of SFW dominating the WB?

The whole "process" argument got shot down when the "process" of the expo got back doored. Special interest groups, mdf included have long profited from going outside or behind "the process". None of us got a vote on expo tags, and especially didn't get one on the current contract.

And yeah, I buy(donate items) for dh, my price just doubled, and this is still a good thing
 
hossblur said:
Sorry slam, but can MDF point to the section of the north American model that discusses selling off 200+ tags to special interest groups?
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This is actually a really good point, but one that still misses the mark. The number of tags in the expo plus conservation programs in Utah is well over 500, not just the 200 expo tags. And MDF gets more of them than anyone not named SFW.

I wonder where that fits into the NA model?

Boy, this act by MDF to try and directly hurt Utah hunting and fishing bothers me more than anything since the expo contract farce. It’s too bad, I had always defended MDF as being different. Now I know better, I guess. As long as their millions from our public resources keep coming into them, they couldn’t care less about the rest of us. That’s what this action tells me, loud and clear. That’s really frustrating.
 
Bigwiffy said:
Niller let us know how that money your bent on will be spent.
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I think it will be spent on this: To-

lease or acquire land or water assets that achieve one or more of the following:
(a) protect and enhance wildlife populations;
(b) provide the public the opportunity to hunt, trap, or fish; and
(c) conserve, protect, and enhance wildlife habitat.
 
I’m not a very bright guy, so I’m confused reading these comments tonight.
I’ve previously said I don’t like it when the Legislature has to come in and do the job that’s supposed to be done by the bureaucracy. As I said when this house bill made its way to Monster Muley last week. I don’t like it when the Legislature regulates wildlife but it’s been happening for years, and I believe it’s being done, most times because the DWR wants the Legislature to do it, to take the heat they are too inept to handle themselves.

It’s very interesting, in my mind anyway, to hear all the ranting and raving how it’s so wrong for the Legislature to pass these bills into law, and not allow the DWR/Wildlife Board to do the job, they as wildlife professionals should be doing, and something has to be done to get the Legislature to STOP!.

Interesting and amusing, to say the least.

Listed below are the comments that the members of Monster Muley made when the Legislature and this Representative Snider gentleman put forth House Bill HB 0295 in the 2021 Legislature. To save you reading it, it’s the bill that passed into law the banning of baiting and banning the use of trail cameras in 2021. Just two years ago.

https://le.utah.gov/~2021/bills/hbillenr/HB0295.pdf

This bill was passed by the Legislature into law in 2021, by the same Chief Sponsor, Representative Snider.

Some of the same folks b!tching tonight are the same guys that were very happy in 2021 with the Legislature for usurping the bureaucracy system and passing these two bills into law.

As you review the comments below, made by MM members two years ago, you’ll notice not a single member mentioned how wrong it was that the Legislature overstepped it’s boundaries in 2021. It was apparently just peachy when it usurped the DWR that year, with HB 0295.
https://www.monstermuleys.info/xf/threads/utah-trail-camera-and-baiting-season-bill.186974/

Here’s a second thread on the same subject in 2021, regarding the Legislature doing the job of the DWR. . Not one member expressed any frustration with the Legislature in this thread either.

https://www.monstermuleys.info/xf/threads/poll-utah-trail-camera-ban.187049/

Now, after these two threads comes this third one. This one is a beast for length, the guys are really fired up about HB0295 in this thread .
A total of 341 posts are made in this thread. Only individuals briefly mentioned the Legislature, two that I remember specifically were Hawkeye and packout. Hawkeye said much the say in 2021 as he did this year with HB0469. That being, he didn’t like to see the Legislature making wildlife laws when it was the DWR / Wildlife Board’s job to manage/regulate wildlife. In Post #333, packout spells the Legislature’s standard operating procedure to y’all, when he says, “ If the Board does not act on some type of trail cam regulations then it seems the Legislature will.”


Packout knows how all this works, because…….. he has been paying attention for the 15-20 years.

I think, out of 341 posts m, there were only two other individuals that even mentioned the Legislature in this 2021 lengthy discussion, on what’s go or bad about baiting and cameras and Hawkeye was almost the only one that said he didn’t like the process. Two guys!
Here it is if you want to take an hour to read all 341 posts……to see if I’m wrong.

https://www.monstermuleys.info/xf/threads/utah-trail-cam-ban.186959/
So now that the same Legislator and the same process that got baiting and trail camera outlawed, gets cougar regulations changed, all of a sudden, the Legislature is out of line and the process has got to stop. Well where have you been forever?

Sorry folks, this critter has been out of the barn for decades, for the same reason it’s out of the barn again this year.

Personally I could care less about cougars, one way or the other. I agree with a lot of you, I doubt many cougars are going to get killed by guys carrying a deer or elk hunting license anyway. What I do care about is the same point Packout made 2 years ago, with baits and cameras issue. that is, if the DWR doesn’t do it’s job, the Legislature will. Further more, and it’s never happened yet, that I know of, if neither the DWR or the Legislature won’t do it, somebody is eventually going to take a run and get stuff like this into the court system, by way of law suits etc. If you think it’s bad to have the Legislature sticking its nose into this stuff, wait until the attorneys and the Courts start to regulate wildlife.

The answer is…….DWR start doing your job!
 
slamdunk said:
We don't care that they are unprotected, that's not the point.
The MDF has spent millions of dollars in cooperation with the DNR and outside biologist on collaring studies of thousands of big game showing the damage predators are doing on our big game and we have supported every measure to get their numbers at rock bottom to help wildlife rebound.
This proposed Veto was because of how it was implemented.
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Slamdunk, I respect your efforts and I understand the position you’re in, when it come to your relationship with Mr. Joel Petersen but sending that letter was unwise and out side his lane, in my opinion and based on a previous letter to a Governor.

I recall a letter, written by a different conservation President that was sent to Utah’s last Governor and published for the public to see. I’m not sure Cox has the same kind of personality as the last Governor nor do I know if he will react the same way the last Gov did, but it didn’t go well the last time and I would not hold my breath how Cox might react to it this time.

Remember, the Utah Legislature, whether we like it or not, has pass wildlife bills of this nature many many times before HB469. This is common practice here. It seems Mr. Pedersen should have looked at typical Legislature/DWR/DNR processes before he let that one fly. Again, right or wrong……. It’s the standard operating proceed and has been for decades in Utah.

Just saying, this isn’t the first rodeo Utah’s Governor’s have experienced that didn’t end the way some had hoped they would.
 
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Hey hawkeye!

There's A BIGGER Predator Than The Lions Left In This State!

But Now There's A Perfect Excuse They Can Harp on Now for the next 4-5 Years!

The Winter of 22-23!

Sing Me A F'N Song!

Hawkeye said:
Sure. I’ll wager a 12-pack of Dew (diet for me) that this bill will not hurt our mule deer herds — or what is left of our deer herds after this winter.

Utah’s new motto: “Shoot a lion and save some deer!”

Hawkeye
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elkassassin said:
People Regulating Game Thar Don't Have a Damn Clue!
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Elkster-

Unfortunately, that has been happening for years. And the only thing worse than ignorant people regulating big game, is allowing people with a political or financial agenda to regulate big game. And I would include the legislature, the Wildlife Board and many of our conservation groups in that category! It is a messy process — kind of like making sausage.

Hawkeye
 
If we are mad at the DWR for the Wildlife Board decisions or non-decisions (it seems some are still trying to conflate who makes wildlife policy in the state), isn’t it fair to criticize the “conservation” organization that has steered the Wildlife Board for the better part of two decades?
 
2lumpy said:
Slamdunk, I respect your efforts and I understand the position you’re in, when it come to your relationship with Mr. Joel Petersen but sending that letter was unwise and out side his lane, in my opinion and based on a previous letter to a Governor.

I recall a letter, written by a different conservation President that was sent to Utah’s last Governor and published for the public to see. I’m not sure Cox has the same kind of personality as the last Governor nor do I know if he will react the same way the last Gov did, but it didn’t go well the last time and I would not hold my breath how Cox might react to it this time.

Remember, the Utah Legislature, whether we like it or not, has pass wildlife bills of this nature many many times before HB469. This is common practice here. It seems Mr. Pedersen should have looked at typical Legislature/DWR/DNR processes before he let that one fly. Again, right or wrong……. It’s the standard operating proceed and has been for decades in Utah.

Just saying, this isn’t the first rodeo Utah’s Governor’s have experienced that didn’t end the way some had hoped they would.
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Great input and perspectives, thank you and you are correct.

The MDF is definitely all for putting the lions in check, it's just how this was slipped in without going through the channels and it paves the way for what may lie ahead.
 
And It Will Take A HELL Of Alot More Than Lion Management Alone To Bring The Deer Back!

But It's One More Thing We Can Study For 10 Years Before Anybody See's It!

What You Gonna HARP On Next?
 
slamdunk said:
Great input and perspectives, thank you and you are correct.

The MDF is definitely all for putting the lions in check, it's just how this was slipped in without going through the channels and it paves the way for what may lie ahead.
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Unfortunately my friend, we've seen a lot of stuff just "slipped in", the justification for the current expo contract being #1.

Like Vanilla I've tried to walk a wide circle in not tying MDF and $fw together. Mainly because MDF has actually done accounting.

But, MDF is out in the wilderness on this one. Without the sweetheart deals, created by lobbyists in the legislature, and sweetheart arrangements that same government has given back, MDF would be auctioning guns for fundraisers. MDF/$fw have lived of of government for a long time, it's asinine to now pretend they are opposed to gov intervention.

I'm all for getting gov out of wildlife, but that means in every aspect, conservation tags and gov funded expos included
 
Elkster, nobody plays the HARP quite like you my friend. You whine and complain about the piss-poor wildlife management, but anytime they make a change to help wildlife you whine and complain that it not enough and won’t solve the problem.

NEWS FLASH: There is no easy fix for the complex, multi-faceted problems facing our herds. And “Hell Right” is a pipe dream that will never get any traction. I personally appreciate any efforts to help our herds even if they are baby steps.

Hawkeye
 
"Baby Steps"

Like We Ain't Seen any of Them The Last 50 Years!

Until HUNTERS Realize There are 50+ Issues With Suffering Game Herds You Can KISS It Goodbye!

Baby Steps Don't Fix SShhitt!

Like You've Already Heard Me Say:

One Excuse After Another!

Most People Blaming One Problem!

The New Excuse WILL BE The Winter of 22-23!

Which It Has Took a Tole On The Animals!

A Tole On Animals/Herds That Were Already In Poor Shape!

Keep Living Your Fairy-Tale Dreams In Hopes It's All Gonna Fix Itself When it's NOT Gonna Happen!

Carry On With The BABY STEPS!







Hawkeye said:
Elkster, nobody plays the HARP quite like you my friend. You whine and complain about the piss-poor wildlife management, but anytime they make a change to help wildlife you whine and complain that it not enough and won’t solve the problem.

NEWS FLASH: There is no easy fix for the complex, multi-faceted problems facing our herds. And “Hell Right” is a pipe dream that will never get any traction. I personally appreciate any efforts to help our herds even if they are baby steps.

Hawkeye
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Bobby-

We finally found something we agree upon: “Until HUNTERS Realize There are 50+ Issues With Suffering Game Herds You Can KISS It Goodbye!”

Just for the record, I never said things will get better. If you go back and read my posts over the years, I have been consistent in stating that the problems facing mule deer are complex and multifaceted, and include predators, loss of habitat, degradation of habitat, drought, difficult winters, increased auto mortality, increased competition with elk, disease, increased human pressure, improved hunting technology, poor management, political changes, etc. I do not think we will ever return to mule deer numbers of the 50s through 80s. Why? Because it is impossible to turn back the clock and return to the conditions that existed back then.

Does that mean we should throw our hands up in the air and do nothing? No. I appreciate each decision, change in law, habitat project, change in management, etc., that helps our struggling herds. If you open your eyes and look around, you will realize that every western state is facing the same issues. For years Colorado was the envy of every western state when it came to mule deer but their deer herds are currently struggling both in quantity and quality just like Utah. No western state has solved this problem.

I’m no expert and frankly I hope I’m wrong but I predict things will not get significantly better during my lifetime. We will see short periods of improvement and increased numbers but then a difficult winter or other event will come along that will set us back significantly. I’m do not expect to see us ever return to the glory days of mule deer hunting. So get out and enjoy what we have now. Go hunting and make memories. If you care so much about our herds, get involved and make difference. Let your voice be heard. As bad as things are right now, they may be worse in the future, particularly when it comes to drawing tags and having the opportunity to hunt. 20 years from now, you may wait decades to draw a OIL tag to chase a “Basin Pisscutter.” ? Hunting will likely be an elite rich man’s sport that primarily takes place on fenced private preserves. It makes me sick but we are already headed that direction.

Sorry for the long, depressing post. And have a great day!

Hawkeye
 
Hawkeye said:
20 years from now, you may wait decades to draw a OIL tag to chase a “Basin Pisscutter.” ? Hunting will likely be an elite rich man’s sport that primarily takes place on fenced private preserves.

Hawkeye
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You’ve just described Bessy’s Graceland! This is exactly what he’s been demanding for as long as I’ve been on MM, and I’m sure much longer.

And then when it hits this, he’ll complain there is no more “opportunity.”
 
So Again hawky!

You Think These BABY STEPS Are Gonna Be Miracles!

NOT!

You're Right On alot Of What You Said!

But Not Totally Right!

I'm Loading You & Nillers Ass Up This Next Fall & We're Going For A Ride!






Hawkeye said:
Bobby-

We finally found something we agree upon: “Until HUNTERS Realize There are 50+ Issues With Suffering Game Herds You Can KISS It Goodbye!”

Just for the record, I never said things will get better. If you go back and read my posts over the years, I have been consistent in stating that the problems facing mule deer are complex and multifaceted, and include predators, loss of habitat, degradation of habitat,
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Hawkeye said:
drought, difficult winters, increased auto mortality, increased competition with elk, disease, increased human pressure, improved hunting technology, poor management, political changes, etc. I do not think we will ever return to mule deer numbers of the 50s through 80s. Why? Because it is impossible to turn back the clock and return to the conditions that existed back then.

Does that mean we should throw our hands up in the air and do nothing? No. I appreciate each decision, change in law, habitat project, change in management, etc., that helps our struggling herds. If you open your eyes and look around, you will realize that every western state is facing the same issues. For years Colorado was the envy of every western state when it came to mule deer but their deer herds are currently struggling both in quantity and quality just like Utah. No western state has solved this problem.

I’m no expert and frankly I hope I’m wrong but I predict things will not get significantly better during my lifetime. We will see short periods of improvement and increased numbers but then a difficult winter or other event will come along that will set us back significantly. I’m do not expect to see us ever return to the glory days of mule deer hunting. So get out and enjoy what we have now. Go hunting and make memories. If you care so much about our herds, get involved and make difference. Let your voice be heard. As bad as things are right now, they may be worse in the future, particularly when it comes to drawing tags and having the opportunity to hunt. 20 years from now, you may wait decades to draw a OIL tag to chase a “Basin Pisscutter.” ? Hunting will likely be an elite rich man’s sport that primarily takes place on fenced private preserves. It makes me sick but we are already headed that direction.

Sorry for the long, depressing post. And have a great day!

Hawkeye
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Elkster--

I surrender. I never said any of these changes would result in miracles. To the contrary, I’ve told you several times that I am pessimistic that we will ever return to the glory days of mule deer hunting again. You really need to slow down and read what people are posting before you respond.

I look forward to taking a ride with you someday and talking hunting and wildlife management. I’ll provide a cooler full of cold dews. Despite your constant complaining and arguing, I think we’d have a great time!

Hawkeye
 
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Hawkeye said:
Elster-

I surrender. I never said any of these changes would result in miracles. To the contrary, I’ve told you several times that I am pessimistic that we will ever return to the glory days of mule deer hunting again. You really need to slow down and read what people are posting before you respond.

I look forward to taking a ride with you someday and talking hunting and wildlife management. I’ll provide a cooler full of cold dews. Despite your constant complaining and arguing, I think we’d have a great time!

Hawkeye
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You’ll have to sign a non- disclosure agreement……… if ya go Hawkeye.
 
Vanilla said:
You’ve just described Bessy’s Graceland! This is exactly what he’s been demanding for as long as I’ve been on MM, and I’m sure much longer.

And then when it hits this, he’ll complain there is no more “opportunity.”
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Yup.

But he will still get a tag every year
 
Well I guess we will have to wait and see how Cougars will be regulated and what the season dates, etc. will look like. People are losing their minds over this bill and really all it does it make it so you don't need a permit. You don't need a permit for a cottontail but they are still regulated and there are still seasons put in place.
 
travishunter3006 said:
Well I guess we will have to wait and see how Cougars will be regulated and what the season dates, etc. will look like. People are losing their minds over this bill and really all it does it make it so you don't need a permit. You don't need a permit for a cottontail but they are still regulated and there are still seasons put in place.
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I have a lion permit in my pocket right now that's good year round.
 
travishunter3006 said:
Well I guess we will have to wait and see how Cougars will be regulated and what the season dates, etc. will look like. People are losing their minds over this bill and really all it does it make it so you don't need a permit. You don't need a permit for a cottontail but they are still regulated and there are still seasons put in place.
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That's not the point, the point is how it bypassed the system and mysteriously ended up on Cox's desk.
 
I personally know 10+ lions killed this winter without lions by folks with the harvest objective and/or spot and stalk tags. And I don’t have that many friends. ?

Hawkeye
elkassassin said:
Please Keep Us Posted On How Many Lions You Take Without Hounds This Year!
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elkassassin said:
Lions Killed without Lions?

You've Got Friends!
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It’s similar to all these phantom deer people keep killing. I trust Bessy’s analysis that there are no deer left in Utah, so these people are killing deer without deer. Weird, I know!
 
slamdunk said:
That's not the point, the point is how it bypassed the system and mysteriously ended up on Cox's desk.
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It didn't bypass the system. The system was used exactly how it is designed. Some people really don't like it, some don't care and some like it.

I have no dog in the fight. Just bringing clarity to a very volatile issue.
 
elkantlers said:
Come on Slam, you know as well as I do there was some shady behind the scenes stuff that went down.
That Justification letter wreaks of Muley freak. Just like MF, that letter is pretty hallow and only satisfies the weak minds.
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I wasn't involved back then and can only offer what is stated in the official letter, like it or not.
I'm not defending what went down, nor am I even a member of SFW.
 
travishunter3006 said:
It didn't bypass the system. The system was used exactly how it is designed. Some people really don't like it, some don't care and some like it.

I have no dog in the fight. Just bringing clarity to a very volatile issue.
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This is a factually inaccurate statement. Clarity comes from facts, not fake news.
 
So what are we going to say when Snider decides he doesn't like trapping or archery hunting and decides to write a bill and send it to Cox?

Are we going to then say "the system wasn't bypassed, it was used exactly how it was designed."?
 
Everybody Will Bend Over Once Again & Take It!

They'll Slip It In again With Something That Niller & Others Like!

I'm Sure They Didn't Like The Messages I Sent Them on This Last BS They Drempt Up!

But What I Say Means Nothing!

WAFJ!

I Think Things Need To Change So We Can Vote On One Item at a Time Rather Than A Whole Bunch of Things All JAMMED Together!

But They'll Always Start With What's Easiest To Get!

When They Come For The AR's I Hope To God People Are Smart Enough To Stand Up!







slamdunk said:
So what are we going to say when Snider decides he doesn't like trapping or archery hunting and decides to write a bill and send it to Cox?

Are we going to then say "the system wasn't bypassed, it was used exactly how it was designed."?
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
They'll Slip It In again With Something That Niller & Others Like!
Click to expand...

You didn’t like this bill before the cougar part was slipped in at the last second? Honestly, it’s just a yes or no question, as this implies only me and some others did, meaning you did not.
 
slamdunk said:
I wasn't involved back then and can only offer what is stated in the official letter, like it or not.
I'm not defending what went down, nor am I even a member of SFW.
Click to expand...
Well you’re “involved” this time around with the same result so…….
 
travishunter3006 said:
The legislation passed a law. That is how the system works. How is that factually false?
Click to expand...

I'll be honest, I thought you were referring to the letter slamdunk posted about the expo contract award.

But that said, what happened here is certainly more nuanced than the legislature simply passing a law. The legislative system was set up to have issues vetted by both elected representatives and also the citizenry that they represent. This is why every bill starts in Rules Committee, proceeds to the house or senate and gets assigned to a standing committee, where the idea is presented to a committee with public feedback, and the committee votes to give it a favorable recommendation or not. If it passes committee, it goes to the house or senate floor and gets multiple readings, which allows legislators beyond the committee to weigh in and then it gets its final reading in that chamber where it either passes or fails. If it passes, it is sent to the other chamber where it did not start and goes through this entire process a second time.

All of this, or the "system," is intended to make sure we have well-vetted bills that result in good policy. We may not always like or agree with what the legislature does, but if a bill is passed on the system described above and how the system was set up, there are many people to blame and it has had a chance to be vetted.

This cougar situation did not follow that "system" at all. The system was completely circumvented when Senator Sandall highjacked the bill and put this in what was otherwise a very good bill for hunters and anglers that went through the "system" as described.

This is definitely not how the system was designed. Not even close.
 
Vanilla said:
I'll be honest, I thought you were referring to the letter slamdunk posted about the expo contract award.

But that said, what happened here is certainly more nuanced than the legislature simply passing a law. The legislative system was set up to have issues vetted by both elected representatives and also the citizenry that they represent. This is why every bill starts in Rules Committee, proceeds to the house or senate and gets assigned to a standing committee, where the idea is presented to a committee with public feedback, and the committee votes to give it a favorable recommendation or not. If it passes committee, it goes to the house or senate floor and gets multiple readings, which allows legislators beyond the committee to weigh in and then it gets its final reading in that chamber where it either passes or fails. If it passes, it is sent to the other chamber where it did not start and goes through this entire process a second time.

All of this, or the "system," is intended to make sure we have well-vetted bills that result in good policy. We may not always like or agree with what the legislature does, but if a bill is passed on the system described above and how the system was set up, there are many people to blame and it has had a chance to be vetted.

This cougar situation did not follow that "system" at all. The system was completely circumvented when Senator Sandall highjacked the bill and put this in what was otherwise a very good bill for hunters and anglers that went through the "system" as described.

This is definitely not how the system was designed. Not even close.
Click to expand...
Exactly as described in the Veto letter, yes.

Even if the outcome were to be the same ending, this was shoved through bypassing committee level, on to the RAC, and in the hands of the wildlife board before ultimately being signed as law.
 
slamdunk said:
Exactly as described in the Veto letter, yes.

Even if the outcome were to be the same ending, this was shoved through bypassing committee level, on to the RAC, and in the hands of the wildlife board before ultimately being signed as law.
Click to expand...

I wouldn't be surprised if some of The Rac and WB members, Specifically Heaton, didn't have their noses right in the middle of HB469. Who do you think would likely be pushing to legalize Trail cams on Private property all the while happy as a clam they can't be utilized on Public?
 
slamdunk said:
on to the RAC, and in the hands of the wildlife board before ultimately being signed as law.
Click to expand...

These have nothing to do with the legislative process I described above.

In fact, the RACs and Wildlife Board exist only because the legislature says they can. Maybe if the WB wasn't so skewed to one certain influence the legislature would be less prone to acting on wildlife issues?

I know I've discussed my concerns with the Wildlife Board and its biases towards one point of influence directly with my elected representatives in the legislature. Many others have too. Wildlife Board really ought to take notice, if they haven't already.
 
MDF is not a good foundation for mule deer. I tried to get them to fight for the mule deer on the San Juan Elkridge unit and they were not willing to help. In 2021 the UDWR wanted to change the population objective on this unit from 2000 head to 1000. I tried to get the MDF to help fight this proposal. That we needed to keep the UDWR accountable for this herd and do something for the herd not lower the objective just to make them look better. MDF would not fight with me and with a local group not affiliated with anyone else. We spent hours calling and talking with RAC/wildlife board, and wrote letters to do our part. We were able to keep the San Juan Elkridge population at the 2000 head no thanks MDF and the lack of support to help the mule deer.
Slam dunk tried to help but the MDF itself would not budge on helping
 
cantkillathing said:
MDF is not a good foundation for mule deer. I tried to get them to fight for the mule deer on the San Juan Elkridge unit and they were not willing to help. In 2021 the UDWR wanted to change the population objective on this unit from 2000 head to 1000. I tried to get the MDF to help fight this proposal. That we needed to keep the UDWR accountable for this herd and do something for the herd not lower the objective just to make them look better. MDF would not fight with me and with a local group not affiliated with anyone else. We spent hours calling and talking with RAC/wildlife board, and wrote letters to do our part. We were able to keep the San Juan Elkridge population at the 2000 head no thanks MDF and the lack of support to help the mule deer.
Slam dunk tried to help but the MDF itself would not budge on helping
Click to expand...

Wasn't any money in it.
 
cantkillathing said:
MDF is not a good foundation for mule deer. I tried to get them to fight for the mule deer on the San Juan Elkridge unit and they were not willing to help. In 2021 the UDWR wanted to change the population objective on this unit from 2000 head to 1000. I tried to get the MDF to help fight this proposal. That we needed to keep the UDWR accountable for this herd and do something for the herd not lower the objective just to make them look better. MDF would not fight with me and with a local group not affiliated with anyone else. We spent hours calling and talking with RAC/wildlife board, and wrote letters to do our part. We were able to keep the San Juan Elkridge population at the 2000 head no thanks MDF and the lack of support to help the mule deer.
Slam dunk tried to help but the MDF itself would not budge on helping
Click to expand...
I do remember that situation and although I am sorry I couldn't get you the help you were asking for, I'm glad it ended up going your way regardless.

Having said that, I just finished a phone call with my regional director and discussed this situation.
He did invite you to call him any time and discuss some possible projects on that unit and what it would take to light the fuse.
He also added that MDF cannot do anything solely without being approved by the Division and their biologists.
We can't plant a single piece of vegetation, build a guzzler or collar a deer without a DNR signature first.

As for lobbying along with you to the Division to get working on that unit, we need "factual" direction first and foremost, and unfortunately it takes a lot more than hunters just wanting more deer for recreational reasons.

Example-
Sometimes a unit is under heavy stress from drought, predators, significant loss of habitat from wildfires, any number or even combinations of negative things and in order to keep a herd healthy, it requires temporary removals.
Keep in mind Livestock grazing also plays major roles in a units carrying capacities, especially during negative natural conditions of the habitat.

PM me if you're interested in trying to get something going on that unit and I will do everything in my power to get you at least answers in the very least, but hopefully physical work done on the ground.
 
I can’t speak for MDF. I can however tell what I was told by a previous MDF employee when I complained about the lack of support from him and the organization.

His response was mule deer population and how that population is managed is not MDF’s mission. MDF’s mission is mule deer habitat. He was correct on its mission statement, as per this image, from the MDF web page.

AF1CE885-B0D8-4FBB-A682-DA1043DBEA12.jpeg
 
@2lumpy
Exactly.

Personally I wish we lobbied more for the actual sportsmen, but it's just not the goal of the organization.

Yes of course we help provide funding for collaring of deer and predators for studies, but we do not advocate for unit herd sizes or quality.
We focus our resources on habitat and conservation of Mule Deer, whereas big game "herd management" requires attention to all species within those particular units.
 
slamdunk said:
I do remember that situation and although I am sorry I couldn't get you the help you were asking for, I'm glad it ended up going your way regardless.

Having said that, I just finished a phone call with my regional director and discussed this situation.
He did invite you to call him any time and discuss some possible projects on that unit and what it would take to light the fuse.
He also added that MDF cannot do anything solely without being approved by the Division and their biologists.
We can't plant a single piece of vegetation, build a guzzler or collar a deer without a DNR signature first.

As for lobbying along with you to the Division to get working on that unit, we need "factual" direction first and foremost, and unfortunately it takes a lot more than hunters just wanting more deer for recreational reasons.

Example-
Sometimes a unit is under heavy stress from drought, predators, significant loss of habitat from wildfires, any number or even combinations of negative things and in order to keep a herd healthy, it requires temporary removals.
Keep in mind Livestock grazing also plays major roles in a units carrying capacities, especially during negative natural conditions of the habitat.

PM me if you're interested in trying to get something going on that unit and I will do everything in my power to get you at least answers in the very least, but hopefully physical work done on the ground.
Click to expand...
I dont think the regional director of MDF ever reached out, but regardless, they should have been more involved with the deer, and looking for ways to increase deer compacity or help mule deer reach their carrying capacity. I have screamed for years that the deer herd on this unit was declining, and luckily SFW did put some money in the ground and did an excellent project on the dark canyon plateau, and small portion if beef basin, this project has produced some great habitat. Unfortunately now I dont know how we will get projects from here on out because it is all part of the bears ears national monument.
MDF should have people or someone in place that is knowledgable of what is going on in areas, they should have had the knowledge that 12 years ago the DWR did the same thing and took the 3500 population objective and took it down to the 2000 population, and used the same verbiage and the same reasons as before, but never, i mean never did anything to show why the deer herd was dying, we all knew it was bears, lions, coyotes, etc...but the DWR stance 12 years ago was that bear dont eat deer, that we cant do anyhing about the coyotes, and that we needed to just pray for rain and that would solve our problems. WE did nothing for years. Finally 8 years later and 8 years too late we gradually increased bear permits, and finally have reduced the bears on elkridge and some local houndsmen have tried to hammer the unit for lions, and the deer herd is showing signs of rebound, a good MDF would have knowledge of the area and or people that could feed them with information that is more useful than allowing any deer herd in the state to be reduced because of lack of effort.
 

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