TRW joint committee to take up preference to bonus point issue
- Thread starter jm77
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Fake News! Its Wyo State Law, we are not legally allowed to have a wildlife related committee where Josh Coursey is not a member. Drop your PP's and drop them now.
nripepi
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In the same boat with 23. Just waiting for a better unit and for my kids to grow up. Shouldn't be penalized for that after paying for decades. If they go 50/50 Preference and Bonus most could live with that and would avoid a lawsuit. Not saying who would win such a lawsuit but I am sure it would happen if they scrap preference points after 3 decades.
nfh
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50/50 I have thought about and I think our wait time would extend 5-10 years.
I understand low point holders and NR wanting BP to help their chances. Ya PP suck and the wait sucks but at least we can plan for a hunt and know when we will draw.
5yearcoueshunter
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They should just stop all point sells. Keep the current system for 10 more years to clear the highest point holders. Then convert to 100% bonus/random with the remaining people that have points and no point people.
nfh
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You must be holding out for a special sheep tag?
Currently it is a total waste for Nonres just starting off applying in Wyo to apply for sheep and moose pts with the current system.
Obviously with the nonres pref pt system for sheep and moose like it is, the WG&F will lose out on a fairly large chunk of $ as nonres drop out of those particular draws.
If the WG&F changes to another system for nonres sheep and moose there will likely be a larger chunk of nonres that will continue to contribute to the pref pt budget plus generate additional funding from nonres willing to start applying each year for pts.
Changing to bonus pts for nonres sheep and moose is definitely an advantage to the WG&F budget and nonres with less than close to max pts. It's a real bummer for those with close to max pts that have dedicated years and $ to the program.
Obviously with the nonres pref pt system for sheep and moose like it is, the WG&F will lose out on a fairly large chunk of $ as nonres drop out of those particular draws.
If the WG&F changes to another system for nonres sheep and moose there will likely be a larger chunk of nonres that will continue to contribute to the pref pt budget plus generate additional funding from nonres willing to start applying each year for pts.
Changing to bonus pts for nonres sheep and moose is definitely an advantage to the WG&F budget and nonres with less than close to max pts. It's a real bummer for those with close to max pts that have dedicated years and $ to the program.
elks96
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Yep. The further away we can get from points and the closer to true random the better…
BuzzH
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Right, and you would howl like a mashed cat if you were in the top tiers of the point pool...fact.
Everything has to benefit you.
Don't agree with true random for moose and sheep. Needs to be some benefit for time in the game. Don't need to see as many kids drawing moose and sheep as adults. But those just entering the system need to have some hope.
I'd have to agree with having some sort of advantage to those that have applied for more years and pay for expensive pref/bonus pts.
How many are thrilled with the Wyo mtn goat odds? Obviously, kids and those just starting out have the same draw odds as those that have applied 20 years without drawing a tag. Some may like no pts but it's somewhat of a drag for those that have devoted years to applying.
How many are thrilled with the Wyo mtn goat odds? Obviously, kids and those just starting out have the same draw odds as those that have applied 20 years without drawing a tag. Some may like no pts but it's somewhat of a drag for those that have devoted years to applying.
LIK2HNT
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Big difference between applying and buying points for 24 years for sheep and applying for Mtn. Goat for 24 years and only paying an application fee.
jm77
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May not have to worry much longer about mtn goats. Today at the Commission meeting Doug Brimeyer admitted the Dept is reducing goat herds where they live next to Bighorns. I guess you call them invasive long enough and the name sticks.
LIK2HNT
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Do they really effect bighorns?
jm77
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The biggest die-offs in sheep I know about are the Gros Ventre and Whiskey Mtn herds. No goats around those areas.
Mtn goats have lived beside wild sheep since goats were introduced back into the alpine in Colorado years ago. I've spent hours upon hours watching both species in the alpine and they pretty much avoid each other. Obviously, where goat numbers get out of hand the tundra takes a pounding, but other than that I really haven't seen any adverse effects.
It's pretty sad that mtn goats get such a bad rap across the Western US. I've always thought there is so much mtn goat habitat potential in the Wind Rivers and elsewhere where wild sheep are almost non-existent. There could be a lot more goats for visitors to enjoy and hunt....but most states seem to think of them as 2nd class citizens. Take a look at what they've done in Washington state to goats the past few years.
Domestic goats and domestic sheep vs wild sheep are another story!
How many non-native, invasive trout live in Rocky Mtn and other National Parks and nothing is done to reduce their numbers?
How many non-native pheasants live in Wyoming? Pheasants are actually stocked every year by the WG&F.
Pick your poison on invasives. Well, invasive cheatgrass....that is another story in itself!
It's pretty sad that mtn goats get such a bad rap across the Western US. I've always thought there is so much mtn goat habitat potential in the Wind Rivers and elsewhere where wild sheep are almost non-existent. There could be a lot more goats for visitors to enjoy and hunt....but most states seem to think of them as 2nd class citizens. Take a look at what they've done in Washington state to goats the past few years.
Domestic goats and domestic sheep vs wild sheep are another story!
How many non-native, invasive trout live in Rocky Mtn and other National Parks and nothing is done to reduce their numbers?
How many non-native pheasants live in Wyoming? Pheasants are actually stocked every year by the WG&F.
Pick your poison on invasives. Well, invasive cheatgrass....that is another story in itself!
elks96
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Nope. I have been top tiers in some licenses and I would still love to see it go random. From the get go, when points first became a thing I have always argued on the side of random.
Sorry but you are wrong on this issue. When I was a nonresident and had a pile of WY points, I was arguing for the NR tags to go back to 100% random.
Bookhead
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Have you drawn some great tags since your became a resident?
elks96
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Depends on what you mean by great…
We have had several better than average hunts for both elk and lopes have had one ewe sheep tag….
I have drawn a pretty top tier area for lopes 3 times since moving here… On the flip side my wife has missed every year on a tag that has over 75% odds.
I support everyone, every year, having the same opportunity. I do not feel like anyone should be favored of entitled because they are older, younger, etc. The only exception of course is resident vs NR.
goforbroke
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I like preference points. I'm okay with a 50/50 split, but random states like Idaho and New Mexico - is like wasting money for me. I never draw random. With that said, Wyoming is too much $$$ for their preference points.
SDBugler
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JM
Thanks for bringing this to everyone's attention. Is there a link or a location where more info can be read? Is this just sheep/moose/bison points? Or would this also include NR deer/elk/antelope points?
My $0.02.......
As an old guy, I can understand both sides to this. On one hand there are those that have invested many years/dollars already and to now change the rules is hard. I also understand that true PP systems make tags unobtainable to those just starting out.
The best thing I ever did was start building points for my three sons as soon as they were old enough in as many western states as possible/feasible. Every year demand increases and supply decreases and many of these tags are truly becoming once-in-lifetime chances at best.
jm77
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There are no meeting materials out yet, but it will be the same BP system proposed by the Task Force I'm sure. It will be for moose and sheep only.
Wyoming has a hybrid PP/random system. 75/25. This doesn't work with the 90/10 allocation for the moose and sheep by individual hunt area. Simple fix that @BuzzH and I have pushed in the past is a 50/50 PP/random. Top point holders get first crack at half the tags and everyone gets a chance at the other half. Simple.
nfh
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makes sense. You want to burn points for the high holders you have a chance to cash out.
or if you want to take a random shot and also take some smaller point holders off the list this will work.
a 50/50 would please both sides. low and high point holders. Even if that means another 5 or so years waiting on a tag i would still support it
jm77
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By my count it would be 7 ram and 2 ewe to random for NR.
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dwalton
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Ewe tags are all on random draw, no points.
SDBugler
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Thanks!
Glad to hear it is only for moose and sheep and not intended for E/D/P. The NR E/D/P system is already complicated enough with 40/60 and 75/25 splits.
BuzzH
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Doubtful NR and R will be under different systems.What if a NR moves to WY after the change? Would the BP turn into PP? Or will the residents go to BP too.
treedagain
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Not sure I would support a change to the sheep tags. Guys spending years and $$$ to get an edge and have them pull the rug out in the name of fairness. Just change all the tags to residents
MQQSE
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They have been under different systems before. For example, points to NR on deer but not residents. Would be cool to get switched to bonus but then move in state and have them changed back to preference.
BuzzH
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Your fantasy, make it as big as you want.
LIK2HNT
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True, but a bonus point is better than a random draw.
Obviously, there are those that believe everyone should have the same chance each year to draw a tag. With that being said, every year additional hunters join the pool of applicants for each and every tag issued. Draw odds continue to rise for every random tag issued each year if the same number of tags are issued.
With a totally random draw system some hunters will draw tags several times while others with poor luck may never draw a tag in their lifetime.
A bonus pt system of any kind rewards those that have applied for years with slightly better draw odds compared to those just starting to apply.
As Wyoming's population continues to increase, tags (especially high demand tags) will become tougher and tougher to draw.
There are benefits to just about every draw system.
What becomes apparent is that hunters draw more tags that are available in years when critters are doing well. In lean times when disease, predators, winterkills, drought etc. have severely impacted critters, tag numbers are severely cut.
It's pretty easy to focus the attention on tag systems rather than putting more healthy critters in the mountains and prairies!
With a totally random draw system some hunters will draw tags several times while others with poor luck may never draw a tag in their lifetime.
A bonus pt system of any kind rewards those that have applied for years with slightly better draw odds compared to those just starting to apply.
As Wyoming's population continues to increase, tags (especially high demand tags) will become tougher and tougher to draw.
There are benefits to just about every draw system.
What becomes apparent is that hunters draw more tags that are available in years when critters are doing well. In lean times when disease, predators, winterkills, drought etc. have severely impacted critters, tag numbers are severely cut.
It's pretty easy to focus the attention on tag systems rather than putting more healthy critters in the mountains and prairies!
BuzzH
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Somewhere between barely and slightly.
elks96
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How is that screwing anyone? Why does any one deserve a better chance? The only fair thing is making everyone have an equal chance as everyone else every single year.
Random draw is the fairest and best system period. Everything else is just form of entitlement.
If systems were changed to all random, the WG&F would lose a fairly large chunk of funding revenue. This is especially true when nonres pay from $31 to $150/hunter/species for pref or bonus pts.
Paying each year for pref/bonus pt fees may not matter to residents since their fees are so low but for nonres paying up to $150/year just to apply for each species it adds up. Pref/bonus pt fees are a pretty easy money-maker for the WG&F.
Applying for pref/bonus pts is more of an investment of time and money rather than an entitlement deal for most nonresidents. For those Wyo residents that stand on the sidelines waiting to draw high demand tags while their neighbor draws several tags, the random draw likely seems like a pretty whacky system.
I guess Wyo residents should be thrilled that mtn goats have no pref or bonus pt system? The same random system could be available for sheep and moose, but I don't think it would fly with nonres.
Paying each year for pref/bonus pt fees may not matter to residents since their fees are so low but for nonres paying up to $150/year just to apply for each species it adds up. Pref/bonus pt fees are a pretty easy money-maker for the WG&F.
Applying for pref/bonus pts is more of an investment of time and money rather than an entitlement deal for most nonresidents. For those Wyo residents that stand on the sidelines waiting to draw high demand tags while their neighbor draws several tags, the random draw likely seems like a pretty whacky system.
I guess Wyo residents should be thrilled that mtn goats have no pref or bonus pt system? The same random system could be available for sheep and moose, but I don't think it would fly with nonres.
SDBugler
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Ummmmm..............really??????
Do you really know how SD works?
What tags are you specifically saying are going to minimum point holders?????
Not too many elk tags went to those with less than 10 points. This is one example of one of the BH elk units. It was EXACTLY 20% available to those with 2 or more points as stipulated in the draw requirements. And you do know that those with over 10 points are also included in the lower pool draws?
And this is the CSP and BH sheep draw. Again, the tags were allocated to the different point groups EXACTLY as indicated in the draw requirements. And again those with higher points are included in the lower point draws.
And for another example two of the the unit 452 sheep tags went to max point holders, one went to a 19 point holder, and one to a 15 point holder. Nobody with less than 15 points even drew even though they had a chance!!!
The unit 252 sheep tags went to 1 with max, 1 with two less than max, and 1 to three less than max.
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SDBugler
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I dug deep to find one that didn't' go to the top few point holders. Here is CSP archery elk.....
These went to 6, 13, and 18 less than max.
I'm the guy with 33 points. Am I mad - heck no! With high demand and VERY few tags, I'm expecting to be buried next to a pile of preference points. Just the way it is when there are so few tags available but everyone has a chance, and the higher point holders have better odds.
Again, this system is working.
I have other issues with the SD draw system but the SD bonus point system works GREAT!!!!!
These went to 6, 13, and 18 less than max.
I'm the guy with 33 points. Am I mad - heck no! With high demand and VERY few tags, I'm expecting to be buried next to a pile of preference points. Just the way it is when there are so few tags available but everyone has a chance, and the higher point holders have better odds.
Again, this system is working.
I have other issues with the SD draw system but the SD bonus point system works GREAT!!!!!
SDBugler
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Keep in mind there are many variations of bonus point systems.
Some square the number of points and add one for the current year.
Some simply give you an extra chance for every bonus point.
Some allocate all the tags to bonus point pool.
Some allocate a portion of the tags to preference points and a portion to bonus points.
Some allocate a tiered system of allocation to bonus points.
I don't know of many states that do it the same.
Bookhead
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Cool story bro.... I could spend an hour looking up units and seasons that prove my point too but I got fish to catch
Bookhead
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Random draws suck hind tit and your wasting your breath trying to change my mind
SDBugler
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Where did I say I was so concerned about WY? Or where was I bashing WY? I was simply responding to your comment about how SD’s bonus system was so bad with some factual data.
If you have some examples of where high point holders are getting screwed please share.
When you look at the bonus system in SD a certain percentage of tags are REQUIRED to go to high point holders. And the high point holders are also included again in the low point draws.
Please explain to me how the system is so bad and screws the high point holders, or show some examples.
Actually NR do have access to one of the 10 available sheep tags.
Regarding NR elk hunting, as I mentioned in another post, I’ve voiced my opinion to the commission in the past that NR’s “should” be allocated some tags.
If you want to get into the weeds on pheasant and archery deer hunting for a few extra days early in the season when most birds are off limits and found in private crops anyway, then we can also open up some issues about why NR’s can’t hunt DIY in “public land wilderness” areas.
EVERY state has good things and every state has bad things. And I will admit there are things in SD that I don’t agree with.
BuzzH
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You can hunt DIY in wilderness areas as a NR in Wyoming.
BuzzH
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Meh, opinions vary. Shocking you can't find someone in Wyoming to share a hunt with.
Your resident friends you hunt with in sodak hold your hand and tuck you in at night? That's sounds a bit different, but I won't judge.
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Guarantee that the friends and complete strangers I have helped hunt Wyo Wilderness areas had 10x less hand holding than you did when you teamed up with Founder and killed the buck he found for you.
SDBugler
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Guarantee and 10x are pretty strong statements. Since you seem to know all the details of my hunt, even though you weren’t there, please explain in more detail in comparison with your hunts where you accompanied others.
Guarantee is based off your description of your experience with Founders service and my firsthand experience with the hunters I have hiked with.
What you got from Founder. He scouted for bucks for himself. He found a buck that was really good but he had his sights set on a different buck. He found the buck. Figured out which basin the buck summered in. Determined where it fed and where it bedded. He took pics. Sent them to you. You said looks good to me. He told you where to park. Which basin to hunt. Where he saw the buck and where he saw the buck coming and going from. This next part is an assumption based off his description of the service he provides. He gave you suggestions on where to camp, where to glass from, where to get water and how to approach the buck if spotted. This next part is also from your description. He provided further advice and encouragement while you were in the field trying to find the buck Founder found.
What a Wilderness trip with me consists of. Tell me your name address and what tag you have. I need this to get the guide license from G&F. Tell me the dates you want to hunt, how many days you want to hunt and what trailhead you want me to meet you at. I show up and follow along behind the hunter. We go at his pace. When he says he wants to camp, I say fine and find a place to pitch my tent. He picks basin to hunt, where to glass and when to leave and return to camp. When and if he kills I will hold a leg while he cuts if he needs help but I have no intention of getting my hands dirty. I have on a couple occasions packed a bag of assorted cuts but more often than not I don’t. Depends on time left in the hunt and distance to truck. The hunter is responsible for all his own stuff as am I. I don’t share a tent with anyone, so I am responsible for tucking myself in at night.
The 10x part is harder to quantify but I ran it through ChatGPT and that’s what it came up with.
It doesn't surprise me that the WG&F has already lost a bit of nonres sheep and goat pref pt revenue with a lot of nonres tossing in the towel. It is a lot more appealing for nonres to spend their hard-earned cash applying in surrounding states that offer draw options where every applicant has a chance to draw tags. That is likely one great reason for the WG&F to switch to a different draw system for nonres sheep and moose tags.
jm77
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No points for mtn goats. Random draw only.
Horniac
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Surprisingly there has not been a drop of preference point revenue to date even with last year’s change to 90/10.
Number of NR sportsman going into the draw with preference points:
Sheep: 2023 =12,114 2024 =12,157
Moose: 2023 =11,964 2024 = 12,151
Over 2,000 NR’s bought their 1st moose and sheep preference point last year under the new 90/10 quota despite their wait for a preference point tag doubling from an already impossible 200 years to 400+ years under the current system.
Not sure if the application services are blindly buying points for their clients or guys buying a point just don’t have a clue as to how the draw system works…
Horniac
SDBugler
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I prefer to either do solo hunts or to share them with my family. I used to share my out of state hunts with my dad until he passed away about 5 years ago. Now that my sons are getting out of college we share our hunts together. We have shared a lot of wilderness and non-wilderness hunts in SD, WY, AZ, CO, NM and MT.
I don't understand or agree with why WY is the only state that says I have to "share my wilderness" hunts with a WY resident or hire a guide. But that's up to WY - they have the right to implement whatever laws/regulations that they choose. You have the right to agree with them or not just as I do. You have the right to voice your opinion about them just as I do. It doesn't make your onions right or wrong and it doesn't make my opinions right or wrong either. I have openly stated that I disagree with several issues with my home state. I have never heard you once say that you disagree with anything that WY does. Maybe you are happy with everything within WY, I don't know.
I have also shared some hunts with friends and even introduced/assisted several friends and friends-of-friends to elk hunting and to backpack hunting.
Oh, and since you don't understand a joke (hand holding / tucking in) no I don't do that with my resident friends.
nripepi
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I know a few non-residents well outside of a tag that are thinking they will change it to Bonus Points so staying in a bit longer in case they do. Others have disposable income and don't realize their points are worthless with the current systems and keep getting them. Then there are the ones who actually have a chance to get a tag that have to keep paying and trudging along hoping their time will come before their too old. If more people knew their $150 was worthless and there would not be changes from preference to bonus then they should not buy them. There was a point where you were required to buy them even if you were applying for a random tag so many acquired them during that time frame as well.
SDBugler
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Mule
The services you provide are something I have been looking for for quite a while except for someone with horses. I would someday like to hunt VERY remote areas like the Thorofare but all the outfitters want to offer the complete package with camp, food, guiding etc. That isn't something I'm interested in. I wish there was someone that did exactly what you are doing but included pack stock!!
As for my hunt that you referenced where I "teamed up" with Founder, you got a couple things correct but a lot of assumptions were incorrect. For the record below is a clip from the message I sent to Founder. I did not do the "scouting package" that he used to provide. In fact, he hadn't started offering that service to others until AFTER we had messaged back and forth a few times.
"Brian
Great write-up on your hunt. Sorry you weren't able to harvest the buck you were after. I can understand your frustration. I chased a 195" - 200" typical buck for 3 years here in South Dakota passing on several other nice bucks during that time. I only saw him twice in those three years but one time was at 15 yards opening day of archery season but no shot opportunity since he was facing directly away. I never heard of him being shot so assume he eventually died of old age.
The reason I am writing to you is that I am considering burning my max 10 deer points in Wyoming on a Region G hunt next year. I would likely hunt the last 7 days of archery season and the first 14 days of rifle season. Since I have 10 points I would be able to pair up with another hunter with little or no points and likely still draw the tag in the regular drawing rather than just waste those points. From reading your posts this year it appears that you hunted region G this year and likely won't have any points next year. If I put in for the region G tag, I would be willing to apply as a group with another hunter rather than waste 5 of my 10 points. I mostly hunt with family and my sons are in college and high school so can't take the time off for this hunt (they also have max points anyway) and my dad is 74 and this would be too tough for him to do as a backpack hunt. I also don't have any hunting friends that are up to a difficult backpack hunt in this area, so I'm looking to find someone who would like to hunt this area next year but doesn't have the points to draw. I thought maybe you would like another chance at the buck you chased this year. All I would ask for in return is for some "general" advice from someone with experience in the unit. I'm NOT looking for a partner to take me to his favorite spots. I not even looking for a hunting partner, just someone who can offer a little advice on areas to avoid, areas to consider, hunting techniques, local deer habits, etc. Let me know if this is something you would be interested in. My direct email
is..............."
To clarify some of your assumptions:
What you got from Founder. He scouted for bucks for himself. Actually we BOTH scouted that summer. Founder took several long weekends and I took a week off work and drove 16 hours out to western WY to get some boots on the ground and look for some shooter bucks. My son who was going to school in MT joined me for a few days that week. Founder and I shared notes with each other about where we scouted and quantity/quality of bucks that we were seeing. He found a buck that was really good but he had his sights set on a different buck. He found the buck. Correct Founder found the buck that I ended up harvesting. He had located another buck that he was going to target that season and offered me to hunt this buck If I wanted. I had also found a couple good bucks during my scouting trip and had also planned to scout/hunt during the last week of archery season. I figured his buck was probably a little bit larger than what I assumed the bucks i had found earlier would likely finish out at, and also my archery week got cancelled because my father in law passed away literally minuets before I was going to leave town for the trip. Therefore, I ended up deciding to hunt the buck Founder had located rather than waste time checking on my other bucks since I would only be arriving at the unit the day before the rifle season and wouldn't have time.
Figured out which basin the buck summered in. Determined where it fed and where it bedded. Yes he found the buck on a particular hillside one morning. No he didn't pattern it. He only saw it and watched it the one morning.
He took pics. Sent them to you. You said looks good to me. He told you where to park. Which basin to hunt. Where he saw the buck and where he saw the buck coming and going from. Yes he took a picture of the buck when he found it and shared it with me. Like I said before, we shared information on what bucks we were seeing. He suggested a parking spot but there were two trails into that area on USGS maps and on GPS chip so no big secret. In fact, I used both trials/parking areas during my hunt. No he didn't tell me which basin to hunt. He just shared where he "had seen" the buck. No he didn't pattern the buck - he only saw it the one morning and he wasn't sure where it was coming from or where it bedded - only shared where he saw it that particular morning. Over the course of the 7 days hunting that buck, I hunted in an area that that was pretty large radius from that location.
This next part is an assumption based off his description of the service he provides. He gave you suggestions on where to camp, where to glass from, where to get water and how to approach the buck if spotted. Yes he offered suggestions on where to camp - I elected to camp in a different spot for my own reasons. He told me where he found water but that is not where I got my water. I got water at a different location farther away, again for my own specific reasons. He told me where he was sitting when he spotted the buck and made a suggestion where to glass from. Over the course of the 7 days that I hunted that buck I glassed from several different locations (I only glassed from his suggested location one morning. I didn't like that location due to personal reasons). On the day that I harvested the buck I was glassing from a different location and had I been glassing from the location that he suggested, I would have spooked the buck out before daylight due to thermals. I approached the buck from the only possible way that morning based on where I was and what the wind/thermals were doing at that day/time.
This next part is also from your description. He provided further advice and encouragement while you were in the field trying to find the buck Founder found. During the 7 days days our texts consisted of "Hey how are you doing? What are you seeing? What is the pressure like?, etc. He provided no more advice than my wife and family - "Good luck", "Keep after it", Don't give up", "It will happen" etc. He never told me HOW to hunt, WHERE to hunt, etc. just encouragement like any of us would do for a fellow hunter. There was also a guide with a client that I saw in that general area most of the week. I assume they were also hunting that particular buck.
Yes Founder originally located the buck that I ended up harvesting. Would I have harvested THAT particular buck without him - no. Would I have killed a different trophy buck without him - yes more than likely. Would my experience have been any different absolutely not. I would have hunted just as hard for one of my other target bucks or any other buck that I had or had not seen while scouting.
The services you provide are something I have been looking for for quite a while except for someone with horses. I would someday like to hunt VERY remote areas like the Thorofare but all the outfitters want to offer the complete package with camp, food, guiding etc. That isn't something I'm interested in. I wish there was someone that did exactly what you are doing but included pack stock!!
As for my hunt that you referenced where I "teamed up" with Founder, you got a couple things correct but a lot of assumptions were incorrect. For the record below is a clip from the message I sent to Founder. I did not do the "scouting package" that he used to provide. In fact, he hadn't started offering that service to others until AFTER we had messaged back and forth a few times.
"Brian
Great write-up on your hunt. Sorry you weren't able to harvest the buck you were after. I can understand your frustration. I chased a 195" - 200" typical buck for 3 years here in South Dakota passing on several other nice bucks during that time. I only saw him twice in those three years but one time was at 15 yards opening day of archery season but no shot opportunity since he was facing directly away. I never heard of him being shot so assume he eventually died of old age.
The reason I am writing to you is that I am considering burning my max 10 deer points in Wyoming on a Region G hunt next year. I would likely hunt the last 7 days of archery season and the first 14 days of rifle season. Since I have 10 points I would be able to pair up with another hunter with little or no points and likely still draw the tag in the regular drawing rather than just waste those points. From reading your posts this year it appears that you hunted region G this year and likely won't have any points next year. If I put in for the region G tag, I would be willing to apply as a group with another hunter rather than waste 5 of my 10 points. I mostly hunt with family and my sons are in college and high school so can't take the time off for this hunt (they also have max points anyway) and my dad is 74 and this would be too tough for him to do as a backpack hunt. I also don't have any hunting friends that are up to a difficult backpack hunt in this area, so I'm looking to find someone who would like to hunt this area next year but doesn't have the points to draw. I thought maybe you would like another chance at the buck you chased this year. All I would ask for in return is for some "general" advice from someone with experience in the unit. I'm NOT looking for a partner to take me to his favorite spots. I not even looking for a hunting partner, just someone who can offer a little advice on areas to avoid, areas to consider, hunting techniques, local deer habits, etc. Let me know if this is something you would be interested in. My direct email
is..............."
To clarify some of your assumptions:
What you got from Founder. He scouted for bucks for himself. Actually we BOTH scouted that summer. Founder took several long weekends and I took a week off work and drove 16 hours out to western WY to get some boots on the ground and look for some shooter bucks. My son who was going to school in MT joined me for a few days that week. Founder and I shared notes with each other about where we scouted and quantity/quality of bucks that we were seeing. He found a buck that was really good but he had his sights set on a different buck. He found the buck. Correct Founder found the buck that I ended up harvesting. He had located another buck that he was going to target that season and offered me to hunt this buck If I wanted. I had also found a couple good bucks during my scouting trip and had also planned to scout/hunt during the last week of archery season. I figured his buck was probably a little bit larger than what I assumed the bucks i had found earlier would likely finish out at, and also my archery week got cancelled because my father in law passed away literally minuets before I was going to leave town for the trip. Therefore, I ended up deciding to hunt the buck Founder had located rather than waste time checking on my other bucks since I would only be arriving at the unit the day before the rifle season and wouldn't have time.
Figured out which basin the buck summered in. Determined where it fed and where it bedded. Yes he found the buck on a particular hillside one morning. No he didn't pattern it. He only saw it and watched it the one morning.
He took pics. Sent them to you. You said looks good to me. He told you where to park. Which basin to hunt. Where he saw the buck and where he saw the buck coming and going from. Yes he took a picture of the buck when he found it and shared it with me. Like I said before, we shared information on what bucks we were seeing. He suggested a parking spot but there were two trails into that area on USGS maps and on GPS chip so no big secret. In fact, I used both trials/parking areas during my hunt. No he didn't tell me which basin to hunt. He just shared where he "had seen" the buck. No he didn't pattern the buck - he only saw it the one morning and he wasn't sure where it was coming from or where it bedded - only shared where he saw it that particular morning. Over the course of the 7 days hunting that buck, I hunted in an area that that was pretty large radius from that location.
This next part is an assumption based off his description of the service he provides. He gave you suggestions on where to camp, where to glass from, where to get water and how to approach the buck if spotted. Yes he offered suggestions on where to camp - I elected to camp in a different spot for my own reasons. He told me where he found water but that is not where I got my water. I got water at a different location farther away, again for my own specific reasons. He told me where he was sitting when he spotted the buck and made a suggestion where to glass from. Over the course of the 7 days that I hunted that buck I glassed from several different locations (I only glassed from his suggested location one morning. I didn't like that location due to personal reasons). On the day that I harvested the buck I was glassing from a different location and had I been glassing from the location that he suggested, I would have spooked the buck out before daylight due to thermals. I approached the buck from the only possible way that morning based on where I was and what the wind/thermals were doing at that day/time.
This next part is also from your description. He provided further advice and encouragement while you were in the field trying to find the buck Founder found. During the 7 days days our texts consisted of "Hey how are you doing? What are you seeing? What is the pressure like?, etc. He provided no more advice than my wife and family - "Good luck", "Keep after it", Don't give up", "It will happen" etc. He never told me HOW to hunt, WHERE to hunt, etc. just encouragement like any of us would do for a fellow hunter. There was also a guide with a client that I saw in that general area most of the week. I assume they were also hunting that particular buck.
Yes Founder originally located the buck that I ended up harvesting. Would I have harvested THAT particular buck without him - no. Would I have killed a different trophy buck without him - yes more than likely. Would my experience have been any different absolutely not. I would have hunted just as hard for one of my other target bucks or any other buck that I had or had not seen while scouting.
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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Alaska has a guide requirement for goats, grizzlies, brown bears, and dall sheep. Unlike Wyoming, unless you're a first degree of kin, you have no way around hiring a guide.
Wyoming has an easy way around the Wilderness Guide Law.
I agree it's not a good law, but it's also not worth my time to try to change statute. Further, if it were something I would pursue, it would only happen if outfitters were awarded outfitter set aside tags. Also, Residents would want something as well, a higher alotment of Elk, Deer, and Pronghorn tags.
That would leave a pretty small pool of tags to NR's, so maybe it would be in your best interest to find something else to complain about and/or find states to hunt wilderness where the guide requirement isn't such a big issue for you.
Further, there are plenty of things Wyoming GF and the legislature does and attempts to do that I don't agree with. Maybe you should pay attention a bit more, nearly all of them have been discussed on this board.
Things like:
1. CWD management.
2. Giving too many elk, deer, and pronghorn LQ tags to NR's.
3. Opposed getting rid of 7250
4. Oppose splitting mule deer/whitetail into 2 separate tags
5. Over issuing both buck and doe pronghorn tags
6. War on elk
7. Black bear hunting favoring archery hunters at the expense of rifle hunters in some areas of the state.
8. point averaging
I could go on, but rather than whine about them, I typically just work to make the appropriate and proper changes if its worthwhile. If you notice, I don't often, if ever, complain like a spoiled child over how your state chooses to (mis)treat NR's.
Its non-stop whining, complaining, foot stomping, suckers hitting the dirt, and breath holding from NR's on how we manage our wildlife.
Which is always curious to me considering that very few states have the quality and amount of NR opportunity than we provide.
Carry on.
Iowan
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There are so few non-resident tags for these species none of this really matters. You are kidding yourself if you think you are going to draw one of these tags except for a minuscule fraction of nonresidents with the most points. Even if they go to bonus points or even some multiplier it is a waste of money from my perspective - if that's your dream or passion keep on donating. When you look at the number of point holders versus the tag numbers it is sort of silly to even think about a tag. I draw one or two good tags out west each year, I am more about hunting than gambling. I would give Wyoming my 19 moose points in exchange for one antelope point.
Wyoming elk, mule deer, and antelope are a different story.
Wyoming elk, mule deer, and antelope are a different story.
BuzzH
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Beings how every non resident that whines about the draw is going to move to Wyoming "some day" or "when they retire", maybe that's why they keep buying points?
Could be they're waiting for the results of that lawsuit they like to threaten about as well.
MQQSE
Active Member
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Need to burn deer points first before moving to WY to cash sheep points.
BuzzH
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Not much to burn them on, good luck with that.
nfh
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Here is the meeting details. Looks like 1:30 pm may 14th they cover this topic. Looks like it's limited to in person and online comments
DeerHunter53
Long Time Member
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And I will howl like a mashed cat if this happens. WTF did I buy points for a dream hunt for years to only have it taken away from me now that I am retired.
I am not one of those hunters who assume that they are owed anything but if you paid for it you should receive what you paid for.. Period
I want the three hunts I have waited 15 years for, I have played by the rules the F&G should make accommodations to facilitate that.
elks96
Long Time Member
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You got exactly what you paid for a point...
BuzzH
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MQQSE
Active Member
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Dumbest answer that I see people repeatedly post about this topic.
elks96
Long Time Member
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What was he buying? A point. That is how points work. You bought a point, in no way do points = tags. Unless you chose to use them... But the funny part is eventually all true point based systems end up the same place. The only person getting the tag is the guy who outlives all the others.
Can you show me any point system that guarantees tags?
dwalton
Very Active Member
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Just had a nice conversation with my senator, who happens to be the Senate TRW Chairman. She seemed really interested in how a 50/50 split in the tag allocation would be much simpler than blowing everything up and converting to a bonus point system. She asked me to gather some information to present to her, and we would meet again next week.
jm77
Long Time Member
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Would be very interested to hear how that goes.
jm77
Long Time Member
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Honestly, isn't that true? No one was ever "guaranteed" a license and top point holders are still drawing tags in the PP drawing. The fact that applicants have increased, numbers of licenses have decreased and the res/nr allocation has changed, doesn't change what a point is.
MQQSE
Active Member
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We all didn’t buy a point, we bought our spot in line. We bet we could outlive the time it took to cover the calculated distance between point one and tag delivery date. We also bet we could stay organized enough to remember the due date to send our hard earned money into the state and not step out of line for even one year. For missing one year moves us back in line.
Now it is the have and have not argument. Once there are enough have nots, the system topples. The rich feed the poor. The hard working feed the lazy. Many ways to look at it.
It’s wasn’t only a point that was purchased. The have nots call it a point because that is easy to do.
Bookhead
Very Active Member
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No I think if you bought your place in line they would of sent you a license dated for the year you were supposed to hunt. But you didn't you bought a point
MQQSE
Active Member
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If all goes well, my place is May 2024, then I’ll be like you have nots and be whining and calling them points.
BuzzH
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Great then we won't have to listen to you complain anymore.
MQQSE
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One less whiny ***** on the MM
BuzzH
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What state will be your next to pretend to be a victim?
MQQSE
Active Member
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It all depends. Colorado seems primed to do me wrong. I’ll be sure to sing about it on here.
SDBugler
Very Active Member
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ALL the states have/are making changes to draw systems and license allocations to address increasing demand and decreasing resources. For example, AZ changed their PP system to a 50/50 and "my line" got a lot longer. When I started chasing points for elk in AZ 19 years ago I estimated that I had a 10-12 year wait to archery hunt the unit that I wanted. My estimate was tracking pretty closely until they changed their system. When they changed to 50/50 the front of the line got farther away every year. Last year I decided to burn my points on a shorter line unit. I had a blast and passed up a few good bulls holding out for something special. But I got out of that race as our family will have several upcoming September hunts and now I can apply for late season hunts and accompany my sons on some of their upcoming September hunts. This is just something that we all need to face as both residents and as non-residents.
It is hard for us old timers with 20+ points in several states/species, but we need to realize and swallow the fact that we need to adjust to accommodate younger hunters and to accommodate increasing resident demand.
It is hard for us old timers with 20+ points in several states/species, but we need to realize and swallow the fact that we need to adjust to accommodate younger hunters and to accommodate increasing resident demand.
MQQSE
Active Member
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I did the same thing with my deer points in AZ last year. I was actually lucky and drew the only NR Nov Kaibab tag for that Nov season they have. The writing was on the wall and I was fortunate to even draw the tag that I did. Probably did it at the expense of someone with more points than I had.
205” Muley out of the deal, so AZ is only good list.
I've done pretty well in point systems.....
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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Meh, I don't feel sorry for myself because I have 20+ points for several species in a few states.
That's a choice, I could have hunted some great units more often but decided not to. It's not the fault of changing systems, not the fault of allocations changing, not because more people are applying, it's on me.
Anyone that believed point systems, allocations, animal populations, etc. etc. would never change was living in fantasyland.
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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I've done better in random draws. I've drawn only 2 really good tags on a preference system in 42 years. Drew a few more OK tags on preference in AZ.
A vast majority of my best tags were all random including MSG.
I am totally opposite from Buzz. I’ve been fortunate to draw MANY pref/bonus pt tags in CO, NV, WY, UT, and even SD and Alaska. I’ve only drawn a very few nonres random tags in the same states in my lifetime.
Some of my luck has been figuring out strategies to draw great units that others often overlook! It often takes a lot of time, knowledge, and good ole fashion good luck to be successful drawing great tags!
Some of my luck has been figuring out strategies to draw great units that others often overlook! It often takes a lot of time, knowledge, and good ole fashion good luck to be successful drawing great tags!
MQQSE
Active Member
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What preference/bonus tags does Alaska have?
Wyoming Hunting Guides & Outfitters
Urge 2 Hunt
We focus on trophy elk, mule deer, antelope and moose hunts and take B&C bucks most years.
