When did I complain or feel sorry for myself. I was just stating an example of “change”.
He bought a preference point not a bonus point and that is the issue. The website talks about preference points dozens of times and no where does it say a thing about bonus points. It goes into detail on explaining how preference points work, you can't just change them from preference to bonus after 3 decades unless you offer a refund.
He bought a preference point not a point.
Nobody made anyone buy anything. You chose to buy a preference point with no guarantee. Get it through your head.
Okay! Did he choose to buy a preference point or did he choose to buy a bonus point?
Yes they can. Being upset with a change is one thing. Saying a change can’t be made without a refund is just factually incorrect.
They can drop the whole point program and about your only recourse is to sing the blues.
Fair enough. They shouldn't make a change without a refund because this is what they sold for 3 decades:
Where did they say nothing will change?
Where does it say they last forever or guarantee a tag?
I think it's great you've done better with preference points, I just haven't experienced the same thing.
I'm in the same boat. between my three sons and myself, we submit about 175-200 applications every year. With the exception of NM, which is random only, we have never pulled a random out-of-state tag. Granted, not too many states have true random tags any more - NM, ID, 50% in AZ, 25% in WY come to mind off the top of my head.
I do not agree. I think it is perfectly fine to make a change to the system after 3 decades. I guarantee that no one expected demand to increase like it has and supply decrease like it has over the last 3 decades.
How many points do you and your family have? Have you already waited in line and got tags? Are you a resident or non-resident? All these answers shape your point of view. It is okay to have different points of view.
I said they shouldn't. It is plain not fair. Why does everyone want to change everything? What is your main reason for wanting change? Residents don't have points for most species. Residents have 25% random on the big 2 and random on everything else. Non-res have so few sheep tags, why make a change? Really curious for the reasons why.
Agreed.
Understood, I just don't see it that way. I see it as PP's were purchased in order to give you Preference in a draw conducted under a PP system. There should have been an understanding on everyone's part that if a PP draw went away those point would be useless to them. PP's aren't place holders, they are Points to give you Preference under a PP system. No more, no less. Now some folks think it should be switched to a Bonus Point System. Converting PP's to BP's is a fair compromise in my mind. Understand that you don't agree with my thoughts.
Currently the 25% random is all but gone in sheep and moose for NR's. Maybe that's fine, maybe it's not. I don't know. I'm also not convinced that switching to BP's is going to cure more problems than it will create for some folks. I do think that in the long term for hunters as a whole, not just me or folks that have been in the system for decades, a BP system change would be more practical than what exists now.
Swing for the fences on elk in Wyo. If you strike out, get yourself a pocket full of those unlimited tags and go hunt the Mule Creek Ranch. (No relation).............now back to the difficult decision - do I modify my WY elk application before the May 8th deadline. The new regs kinda threw a wrench into what I was previously planning
When you are charging $100-150 per point for a preference point for 15+ years, I just don't see why people (myself included) should have understood that the system would go away in 25 years. I don't know, I know I am bias based on my stockpiling points and planning, but this just doesn't sit well. I think Utah's system would be a good compromise if you want to change something. I just think with so few tags it doesn't make much sense to change anything now. Residents can do what residents want to do with their 90%, no problem there but they were only paying $7 per point so they are in a different boat.
Bet you would feel different if it was you that had purchased the points for years.
For residents I don't want change. I've drawn my sheep and moose tag under the current system. If random went to 50% or they changed to BP that would increase my future chances, but I'm fine leaving it just like it is.
Paid for them with hard earned money not entitled just want a fair shake.
23 sheep and moose points and I am in my 40s.
Yeah, only been purchasing points for 26 years.
You do feel differently though and stated as much last year that it should stay at least 50% preference as it wouldn't be fair.
Follow the money. Over $3.5M reasons to change it.
Here you go Sebastian, I'll give you the list.
That's what I've pushed for from the start, what's your point? Pun there.
Yes at $7 a point so you have put in a whopping $364 for both sheep and moose while I have put in $2800 in half that time. Quite the difference.
Guys like you are the very reason many Residents don't give 2 chits about NR's.
We have been told for years, including in the 90/10 push, that non resident preference point money doesn't matter. It can be replaced easily. It is a non-issue, a drop in the bucket.
It can be, don't overplay your hand.
You got some of those sheep and moose points for $7 even as a NR.
What? I agreed with you. I am sure the price increase on special last year already covered it.
Requiring a license up front, like most states do, to even apply for a license or point would be another good way to get $100-$150 out of NR's.
Okay, we all know that. The question is if they change to bonus points from preference points, do I get "exactly what I paid for" or not?
He might not have. $1000 in points could of happened in 5 years or less.
You get more than what you’ve paid for if they use bonus points in the random.
It’s Not Fair. Sing it…..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fUYaosyR4bE
The current system is 75/25 which creates 1 random moose tag and no random sheep for NR.
This is where things go south. You're not describing most residents.
Debatable I guess. Depends how many points you have. Everyone in Colorado with lots of points want to change it from bonus to preference....
Statistics must be as hard on you as third grade was....
Colorado CPW awards preference points by species. When you don't draw your first hunt choice, you automatically earn a preference point, https://cpw.state.co.us/learn/Pages/BigGameLicenseOptions.aspx
Not for sheep, moose and goat. A bonus point it is and it is under debate.
I remember back in 2011 I was able to sneak in and grab a non-resident second season G17 tag with only two preference points. Shouldn't have even been eligible to draw with less than the minimum 3 preference points, but nobody wanted to hunt that unit back then. Now the odds are about 1/50 in the bonus!!!
Just one
There is public comment at TRW, actually may be the most important public input.
Tell her to kill the mule deer/whitetail split idea when you talk with her.
My point was, with the 75/25 intact your assumptions about bonus points are wrong.
I asked her straight up if we could stop re-hashing all the things that were tabled by the Task Force.
You have it backwards for Utah. Most OIL hunts in Utah only issue one tag and it is usually issued in the random draw. Many times a greenhorn with no points draws while bonus point holders are passed by the random applicant. This sucks as when they only have 1 permit offered which is the case with all NR Desert and RM sheep it always goes random. In the past there was 2 permits offered on the San Rafael North and 1 went random and the other to the high bonus point holders. This hunt went away for NR when the herd declined. Now it’s all random so hardly worthwhile in Utah to even purchase a bonus point as everything is random unless there are two or more permits.
Utah is 50% preference and 50% bonus. The poster said they go bonus if there is only 1 tag and as you both mentioned it could go to anyone and unlikely will go to the max points applicant.
Utah only has a bonus point for most hunts including all OIL Hunts. For General Deer only they use a preference point system.
That is definitely not true. Plenty of hunts use preference points but you need to have at least two available tags. If you are talking about Desert Bighorn then that is correct.
Utah LE is about 49.99% preference. Not bonus points. But UDWR inappropriqtely calls them LE bonus points which leads to confusion and unproductive conversations (like the one above).
Your trying to change how states operate their point systems is becoming ever more clear. Utah has NO PREFERENCE POINT system on any LE or OIL hunts. The only system they use a Preference point system is for General Buck deer. Trying to redefine and fantasize about how states should operate their drawing systems just exposes your Ignorance.
Better read the fine print! If more than 1 tag, they go preference.
Look at the resident side and it is a very different situation. The bonus tags are actually preference tags and the the regular tags are actually bonus tags and it is working okay. Just not enough tags for non- res.
As you were told above, the first NR tag available is assigned to be a "Regular Permit" (awarded bonus style).
Yes, if you're only looking at Utah LE ram, you won't see this play out on the NR side. Look at Utah LE elk and you'll see the Utah preference program in action for NRs.
Statute would read "50% of available licenses" so it would always round up.
Correct, the people wanting all these changes like to run their soup coolers about how to do it, but they aren't the ones that will be trying to explain it to the TRW or Commission. Both of which don't even really understand the current system, let along asking them to make meaningful change.
Being greedy with 24 sheep point I would prefer points to be cubed in the random draw if the above happens.
Sorry - they use the term "bonus point" for their points but it is in reality a preference point since it gives preference to the highest point holder first and then on down the line, and not just additional chances in the drawing.
In other words, Utah uses a bonus/random system for all Sheep hunts. No preference at all for top point holders and rare that anyone with more than 20 points ever even draws a OIL tag. A few years ago a greenhorn drew with ZERO points and last year one applicant only had 4 points drew a Desert sheep. It’s not a preference AT ALL given to top point holders. Wyomings system isn’t broke, why change what has worked.
If that is the way they would write the language, then it would be important especially to NR's as to which half it went to.
Incorrect. WY 90/10 for Big 5 completely broke M/S for NRs. And that is why the TRW committee is back to looking at this issue.
Yes, if by "bonus/random system", you mean "preference/bonus system". And yes, for Rams & mountain goat, the preference tags ("bonus permits") have not happened at all in recent years. Only the regular permits (awarded simple bonus style) have been awarded. But when a 2nd NR permit is available for a Utah LE hunt code, it will be a "bonus permit" and awarded in % true preference style (just like CO, to the max point holder).
No, the residents of Wyoming took back what was far too generous for decades and fixed it.
It currently goes to PP. I should've known you didn't know that based on your ideas.
90/10 M/S didn't "break" anything. It eliminated almost all NR random tags.
Urge 2 Hunt
We focus on trophy elk, mule deer, antelope and moose hunts and take B&C bucks most years.
