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H

HunterX

Guest
I've been hunting for as long as I can remember. I have seen and done my fair share of misses on game probably more then most. If there was ever an expert on missed shots I'd definitely be in the running. From experiencing all these missed shots ranging from 100 yards all the way up to 700. I've come to one important conclusion but before I tell what that is I want to ask a question.

If a picture is worth a 1000 words then what's a video worth? I invite each and everyone of you to please watch this video I put together. Here's the hard part I want you to just watch the deer and how they react to the shots in relation to the distance they are being shot at. I know there where a lot of hunter mistakes made but that's not what I want you to look for. I want everyone to see if they notice a difference in the deers behavior in correlation to the distance of the shots being taken? Then ask yourself one question...Is shooting game at long rang really fair to the animals being shot at? Please watch and then decide for yourself...

 
Does Stinky know he was being filmed?

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To answer you question, nope not fair. Now one to the next part. If there is only one shooter in these vids then he needs to quite hunting. Not because of his ability but because he knows his ability to shoot is horrible but yet he continues to blast away at extended ranges obviously outside his capabilities. The shooter needs bich slapped...
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-11 AT 01:53PM (MST)[p]
SO you found video's that you can use to make it look like all animals run after being shot at from close range and all animals just stand there being shot at from far. big deal. I could find video of animals shot at 100,200,300 yards that just stand there and look around. big deal! I could find video where an animal runs like hell after being shot at from 700 yards. big deal!
The only thing you prove in that video is the shooter really sucks and better limit his shots inside 100 yards to give himself a chance.

I will agree that it is not fair to the animal when the shooter clearly should not be shooting at those ranges because he is simply guessing and is just hoping to get lucky!
 
Interesting vid. I feel like the first buck might not have been a clean miss. He has a strange run going on. Second scene has 2 shooters. Makes a good what NOT to do video.
 
the only thing i got out of it was the shooters suck....and i really thought coues deer were a little more jumpy than that.
 
hunterX,

You ask if it is fair to the animals if we shoot at long range. Well ask yourself this. Is it really "fair" to the animal if we are shooting at 20, 50, 100 yards. Is it "fair" to the animal if we are shooting at it from any range??? Is it "fair" to the animal that we are trying to take its life??? Trying to kill it for our own pleasure, so his head can be on our wall??? The answer is NO it is not "fair" to the animal at any range!
 
Whom ever was doing the shooting should just stop hunting!!! If your that bad you either need glasses, need to re-zero your rifle, buy a new scope. These are just rediculous videos period!! I guess the best thing these videos show is how bad some hunters are at shooting....They obviuosly never practice.
 
Is it fair? Well I have seen video, shot by personal friends that shows dumb deer stand there when shot at from 50 yds - 200 yds too. Also seen animals take off when shot at out beyond 500 yds.

My main concern is that idiots who don't know how to shoot long ranges will only wound, and not kill the animal.

Besides, what can you do to change this "problem??" NOTHING
 
I more than got the gist of why you did the video the way we were talking on the other thread about distances. However, it may not help the cause and it made me sick, especially to see that one big bodied deer the guy shot at broadside in the open 4 or 5 times and was missing low by what looked to be at least 10 or 15 feet! I don't care who it was, but I know where I'd like to shove his rifle sideways and it's where the sun don't shine!!! I'm not going to ask if either of those guys in that video might have been you and if it was I sure wouldn't admit it! Anyway, that deer was smart to just stand there because he might have run into one if he had started moving around for God's sake. Pitiful, just pitiful shooting at whatever distance any of those shots were taken!!!
 
X, if thats you, you should be taking notes, and typing less.

--------------------------------------

If rifle hunting was gay swbuckmaster would do it...
 
Here's the ONLY thing that ANYONE can assume: The shooter is a 75yrd shooter trying shots at 500 yards, well beyond HIS ability and range.

Fair? Fair you say? Is a 3x9 on an ole '06 fair?

Come on bro, get real. Think about what you're saying!

Zeke
 
dont think it is fair to the animal at all, the guys pulling the trigger are the ones that give shooters and hunters a bad name .one point that is missed is look at the way the mule deer buck is standing when the person is shooting ...with its butt pointing right at him!!! poor ethics
 
I couldn't watch after the 3 minute mark! That is PATHETIC!!! A ##### slap wouldn't be enough in my mind for the shooter! Wait til Bessy gets a hold of this vid! If that was you shooting...I'd cut your loses and not respond or change your handle and be a born again MM'er!


Traditional >>>------->
 
I think you might have a better chance if you go to your local hobbie store and buy a toy remote control helicopter that could drop small sticks of dynamite near the deer? You might even get a little dust in his eyes from the explosion and could continue shooting 15ft low for the remainder of the day?? Just a thought??
 
Fair? Is shooting an unsuspecting deer at 20yds with a bow under a treestand fair? I say we make bows louder to be more fair....

Also, were these hunts guided? and if so, by who? and why was the shooter not called off after the 3rd or 4th shot missed by FEET?

-----------------------------------------------
http://andymansavage.blogspot.com/
 
There were 5 shooters. The second and last bucks were shot at by the same 2 guys one year apart. All the other bucks were shot at by all different guys. I did none of the shooting. I did do the videoing. I've been videoing hunts for over 10 years and have a seen my fair share of missed shots by all types of hunters.

Out of all the game I've seen missed 9 times out of 10 if they are past 500 yards they pretty much stand there until they get tired of rocks hitting them or finally get hit. I have yet to see a buck get shot at past 500 that has ran off before the 3rd of 4th shot. As seen in the video you don't have to be very quite when shooting at anything past 500 yards. The 1st coues buck that gets shot at I actually had to edit out the voices due to some not so choice words being used. This clip was a real good example of how loud one could be without spooking the deer. To be fair I have seen deer stand there and get shot at at closer distance but nothing like what I've seen past 500. Anything past this distance you can really tell the animals are at a huge disadvantage. This disadvantage is so great that many people consider it not fair chase.

I knew this would ruffle some feathers and have a few guys jump to conclusions but this was not why I post the video. Sounds like most of you never get to see this type of thing because your either a better shot or have better ethical values. Sad truth is this happens more often then most want to admit. I have the video to prove it. This is why I posted the video because most of you has never had the chance to see an animal get shot at over and over again at these distances. And now that you have seen it for yourself you can better understand why some of us think that long range shooting can be considered not fair chase.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-11 AT 04:32PM (MST)[p]Seeing as I have been on your side of this the whole time on the other thread, I'm not going to give you too much static! However, I do have to ask why you are hunting with people like that? Even if they were paying me money to do it, after the first shot and bad misses on those animals I would have been shutting the camera off and telling those guys to head for their truck!!!
 
HunterX, what exactly are you try to do? Should we ban optics on rifles all together and go to open sights. I don't see how it would be possible to stop the trend of long range shooting. Guys are going to shoot beyond there limits no matter what rifle and scope combination they've got, it's still gonna happen.

I've seen deer and elks shot near and far that run on the first missed shot. I sat next to the shooter on a monster bull at 207 yards that didn't move for 4 shots. She reloaded, the bull actually walked closer to 100 yards, and she missed 2 more times before the bull finally walked off into the thick stuff. There are many conditions that go into the animals spooking while being shot at. You could probably cherry pick some videos showing them taking off at 500 yards on the first shot as well if you had time.
 
Kind of embarrassing to watch. At first I thought they were missing on purpose to judge the deer's reaction.

I would have shut the camera off a long time ago and headed back to the truck.

Eel
 
I'm callin BS on the yardage of that last Buck!

Don't know if somebody's just screwin with us or what?

And they claim Coues Deer are smart?

Them ain't Basin Bucks,Cap one round off at a Basin Buck & I don't care the yardage and that PISSCUTTER will be in the next County!
 
In the first place, deer don't know what a gun is and in most cases, when you shoot and miss by some distance, they won't run...unless you hit something solid close by, creating a sound which puts them on their guard.

Secondly, man is a predator and when deer see hunters, before or after a shot, they are inclined to re-establish their "comfort zone" and put some distance between the danger and themselves.

I have seen several deer bed down within yards of a buck that was dropped stone dead. They remained there for several minutes, until the hunter reached the shelf they were all on.

At no point does any animal on the planet, comprehend the concept of a bullet, the noise it makes, nor the danger it presents. Same thing with vehicles....you can drive right up to most animals and they seldom run, until you get out and present your human profile.

Deer...animals, don't run from shooting at them, they run from "who" is a threat to them.

And I agree with One dryboot....it ain't "fair" to shoot bullets at dumb animals, regardless of the distance and I find the use of the word "fair" in any hunting discussion, simply stupid!

Your post does confirm one thing however; you got some really dumb friends!



"whackin' a surly bartender ain't much of a crime"
 
Yardage is correct within 50 yards. The hunters never used a range finder before. They thought it was broken because it wasn't ranging. It has a 500 yard limit thats why they couldn't get a range. After they got done shooting I went over and ranged it out and came up with 600 by add two ranges together. I didn't believe it either when I was videoing it. Looked like they were around 300 yards.
 
That video pretty much says it all.
This long range crap is gonna screw it up
for everybody.
You ever see the sign on the exit door of a plane that
says "do not open during flight"? It's there because
some idiot tried it!!!!!!! Same deal, this stuff is
getting out of hand.
And dont give me any flak about the "ethics police".
Somebody has to have some ethics, and we need to
police our own ranks before someone else does.
arrogance, ego,
It's just wrong, stop it!!!!!!
 
X-

You want to really know what is sad.......you sir.

If you are seriously telling anyone that they shouldn't be doing something (long range) when you are giggling, not calling shots and hunting with IDIOTS you sir are the problem, not long range, close range whatever. The next time your buddy shoots at a deer twenty times take his gun from him and beat him half to death with it.

There is NO excuse for that kind of BS, that is the most asinine post I have ever read, I know 11 year old kids with more intelligence than you and the shooters.

I really don't believe I have ever read a post that made me mad, this one did......its more sorrow than anything, sorrow for the sport and coming to realize people do this all the time and you have the audacity to laugh and giggle after a deer is not only missed, BUT BLOWN!!!!

For god sakes stay out of Long Range, spread the word to anyone that associates with you as well. I highly suggest hunters safety course for you and your friends/colleagues and some sort of ethics course. You guys need help, and I'm not even kidding one bit.

God help whatever states deer herds you guys are hunting around. You guys have probably killed more deer than you would ever know what to do with and retrieved about 1%.

Shame on you all, and good luck, you all could use something.

The deers reaction should be the last thing on earth you are worried about.
 
Again HunterX, what exactly do you propose we do about this supposedly disturbing long range trend? You keep bashing it to death in these posts, but what exactly is your solution?
 
I have missed a shot over 500 yards once or twice. At 300-400 yards I don't even miss. These people need to quit hunting. They suck!
 
X

After watching that garbage I noticed a few things.

First, The shooters in the video are horrible shots and have no business hunting.

Second, for being apposed to long range hunting you continue to be an active participant in the activity and did nothing to discourage it.

Thirdly, I am sure anyone can cherry pick clips to illustrate their point.

I doubt you have any footage of long range successes or close range for that matter with these shooters.

There are always two sides to a story and you sir are presenting one side.

Seems to me that someone is calling the kettle black.
 
Wasn't a giggle of amusement but of astonishment of what I was watching. It was a holy crap this can't be happening moment. I thought The shots where a lot closer then they really were and couldn't believe that they were missing as bad as they were. I didn't find it funny.

So let me get this straight if I'm videoing a hunt and the hunter misses I should turn the camera off and hit the guy in the head with it. OK got it!

This crap happens all the time short range long range doesn't matter people make mistakes some dumber then others. Don't think I'm the only one who has seen or got video of it. Next time you watch a hunting shot pay attention to how many parts look like they've been edited out. It happens more then most people know.
 
HunterX, Hardly indicative to what LR hunting is. It seems you have a lot of time on your hands, why don't you go over to longrangehunting.com and check out how guys that know what they are doing shoot? I know your stance on the LR thing, but at the very least you will learn something about rifles and ballistics. That's stuff all hunters should know anyhow. You've showed some idiots so fair is fair. mtmuley
 
So X-

What the hell is your point about Long Range?????? Its unethical????

Your video is now the new definition in my mind of UNETHICAL!!

I think its better in my little mind to assume you are the only one that recorded crap like this, and did nothing about it, hell even boasted about being a poor shot........

You come across feeling bad for the deer and asking is it fair......????????
Is it fair that a few idiots can blow shots like this, god only knows how many you have all wounded, and then say Long Rang is Unethical, or Unfair.......

The Irony is just about to much........Ever heard the line "people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones" You Sir have a lot of work.......

Im still sitting here astonished you even bring ANY of this up.....
 
I am so sick of this dumbass conversation
Its simpele
If you agree on shooting animals at long range "THEN DO IT"
If you don't agree with it "DON'T DO IT"
Its takes just as much training,discipline,passion and money to shot consistently at 800 yards with a rifle as it does stalking a animal and shooting it with a bow at 45 yards.
I know this because every year I spend the time and money on both ways of hunting.And I enjoy both ways
But the last thing I'm going to do is put together some bull sh!t
video and try to push what I like and believe on somebody else

But what I will do is ansere your question
YES,all ways of legally taking big game is fair.I pay my money and do my best to conserve are wildlife for the next
generation.
Regardless whether its at 45 yards or 800 yards
 
>Again HunterX, what exactly do you
>propose we do about this
>supposedly disturbing long range trend?
> You keep bashing it
>to death in these posts,
>but what exactly is your
>solution?


Busy right now I'll be able to respond later tonight.
 
Never Satisfied: It does not take much stalking to get within a half a mile of an animal {800 yds} on the other hand to approach an animal to within 45 yds, especially a mature buck in most cases can be quite difficult. So I am confused at your argument.
 
Am I the only one that noticed they are using radios when they are hacking away at that last mule deer? Pretty sure there is a game and fish dept in some southwestern state that would be very interested in this video.
 
I noticed as well, and am not suprised..........This guys ethical compass is so messed up it was the least of my concerns.

Its fair to use 2-way radios to the deer........:)
 
>Again HunterX, what exactly do you
>propose we do about this
>supposedly disturbing long range trend?
> You keep bashing it
>to death in these posts,
>but what exactly is your
>solution?

Nothing you can do about it really. How can you make and in force a law that restricts the distance one shoots. Not my intention. My goal in posting the video was to show others what I have seen and how when an animal is shot at out past 500 yards they pretty much are defenseless. I know there are guys out there that can consistently hit game at these distances. Just because you can do it does it make it right? Just because a guy can easily hit a duck on water, dove in a tree or a quail on the ground should he do it? I knew I was going to get a new one torn by making this post but it amazes me how some of you guys jump to such outlandish conclusions about my ethics.
 
>Am I the only one that
>noticed they are using radios
>when they are hacking away
>at that last mule deer?
>Pretty sure there is a
>game and fish dept in
>some southwestern state that would
>be very interested in this
>video.


Most of you guys have already made up your minds about me and my hunting ethics so you won't believe this anyways but the radio wasn't used to get the hunters on the deer just used to let me know they were going to shot and to make sure my camera was on. As far as I know it's not illegal to use radios for hunting purposes in the state of AZ.
 
Never_satisfied x10!

Idelkhunter25 Good post at #30 X10!

HUNTER-X

First Why would you sit there and film that Chit? You speak of ethics yet you film the same guys more than once sucking AZZ at shooting and post it here as some example of what not to do.

Second If you can hit the F'ing critter they will ALL react the same in my experience.

Third that video and the guy filming and especially the guys repeatedly sucking at life are my new definition of unethical.

Bill
 
>Yardage is correct within 50 yards.
> The hunters never used
>a range finder before.
>They thought it was broken
>because it wasn't ranging.
>It has a 500 yard
>limit thats why they couldn't
>get a range. After
>they got done shooting I
>went over and ranged it
>out and came up with
>600 by add two ranges
>together. I didn't believe
>it either when I was
>videoing it. Looked like
>they were around 300 yards.
>


WOW! I think that is possibly the dumbest thing I have ever heard of! The only thing you prove is that these people should not be shooting! And you had to combine two ranges to come up with the total distance? Lmao and it is accurate within 50 yards?
CLEARLY these guys don't have the equipment to be shooting! So why were they? They thought the rangefinder was broken cuz it wouldn't range that far. Lol I'll bet they were standing up shooting freehand as well. Your a joke!
 
What I dont get is why you would even want someone filming you if you're that bad. I'd be too embarassed to even watch the video again alone.
 
There were a few comments made about cherry picking this clips to show just one side. Yes I did cherry pick these clips because they best show how defenseless game can be at these distance. How else would I prove my point? I don't have any video of bucks getting shot at past 500 yards that run after being shot at and I can't recall ever seeing this happen so I couldn't post this anyhow.

I know that animals missed at close range will sometimes stand around for another shot. I've already stated this in a previouse post. This can happen at any distance but once you get out past 500 yards missed animals tend to not have a clue whats going on. All the deer I've seen missed within 300 yards show at least some kind of awareness they are being shot at.

Look guys I'm not trying to ban LR hunt just trying to educate a few of you that may not be aware of how defenseless an animal is a these great distances. A few of you said that I was being one sided and in a way they were right but it's actually the other way around. Think about it how many times have you seen videos like this before? All we mostly see are videos with the one shot long range kills. Very rarely do you see the other side of long range hunting like I've shown you today.

Some of you think I'm being a hypocrite by coming on hear saying the things I'm saying. Have I taken shots in the past I shouldn't have? Yes I have. I never said otherwise and just because I video something that is unethical doesn't mean I condole it either.

From most of the post already made on this thread it sound like a lot of you have ever miss an animal past 500 yards and probably never will. Well how else are you to know how an animal reacts to being missed at these distances then. If a person has never seen an animal missed at long range how can they say if it's fair chase or not. It would be nice for people to realize this without having to experience it like I have.
 
I for one agree there is a challenge at both levels I've shot all my game within 75 yards but I practice during the Off season out to
600 don't plan on ever shooting one at that range but if you know what your doin go for it. And those guys need some more time behind the rifle it looks like to me.
 
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X-

Im still confused........You are obviously passionate about fighting long range hunting, why its wrong, "defenseless animals", etc.

Yet it appears that you are not bothered by your clients or friends total and blatant disregard towards animals by using broken range-finders, equipment that is obviously not familiar to them, shooting at running deer, using electronic radios to communicate and who knows what else, to tell me that its wrong to shoot at defenseless animals past 500 yards because they do not run after missed??????.......I do not understand....

So what your implying is its okay to be a jackass and not familiarize yourself with your equipment as long as its under a couple hundred yards ("because it happens all the time")but not okay or "fair" to shoot at a buck in its bed with all the equipment, knowhow etc. in good conditions at 500 Yards?????


Hello Pot, Meet Kettle......

I don't know about you, but I would prefer to KILL efficiently no matter the distance or what the deer "feels"

If your so worried about defenseless animals you better consider shooting sleeping bucks in there beds with archery equipment and or rifles as well, hell maybe you better look into requiring all hunters about to shoot a buck in its bed, yelling a few war whoops to make sure the deer isn't so defenseless....
 
Is it fair to the deer that you had no clue what the ranges were?

Is it fair to the deer that you had to combine two range readings just to figure out the yardage after the shots were taken?

Is it fair to the deer that your range was + or- 50 yards of being correct.

is itfair to the deer that these guys had no clue where they needed to aim and they were simply guessing!

I itfair to the deer that these guys clearly did not have the equipment to make a shot?

your video did nothing to promote ethical, moral or common sense behavior! Your video does not depict those that do and can shoot longer range. the only thing that video proves is idiots will take shot after shot after shot simply guessing and hoping to get lucky! It is not the long range hunters that give hunters a bad name. Its guys like on this video that give hunting a bad name. I can not believe you would even post this garbage and try and convince people this is how it is.
And lastly ,I think even Topgun is shaking his head at your actions!
 
I have seen far worse than that, a guy lobbing bullets at a small herd of elk, the animals just ran around in circles until the shooter ran out of bullets, luckily none got hit that time, but usually the elk aren't so lucky.
 
I'm not against long range shooting, but I am against the guys who go out a week before season, sight there rifle in at 200 yards and then go on some website, and download a ballistics chart tape it on there rifle and claim to be long range shooters. As stated in previous posts shooting long range takes lots of practice(which these guys obviously had none of) We all owe it to the game we hunt and the sport we love, to be as accurate with the choice of weapon that we choose weather be a rifle bow or muzzleloader. This video just makes me sick.
 
These guys don't need to quit hunting. They need to get to know their rifle. Practic, practice , practice. If your range finder is not rangeing then get closer under 300yds so there is less guess work. Practice rangeing. don't take shots that you can't make at the range.

"You'll never get a big one if you shoot a little one"
 
How many days did these guys spend at the range.Bet these guys never even sighted in their guns before the season started. These guys look like Hunters(for the lack of a better word) picked up that rifle that was sighted in 4 years ago or longer and then went hunting.
Can't fix stupid is all I can say.
What is sad is there are alot of "shooters" out there who do the same thing year after year, claiming they don't have time,money,bullets,a place to shoot,ect, Because you have some "Want to be hunters" out shooting at deer what does have to do with real hunting and real shooters who practice using their weapons year around. all you have shown is some people shouldn't be given a license or a tag.
If these are your friends you should proably upgrade.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
>These guys don't need to quit
>hunting. They need to
>get to know their rifle.
> Practic, practice , practice.
> If your range finder
>is not rangeing then get
>closer under 300yds so there
>is less guess work.
>Practice rangeing. don't take
>shots that you can't make
>at the range.
>
>"You'll never get a big one
>if you shoot a little
>one"

+1 I couldn't agree more.
 
You guys don't think I know some of these shots shouldn't have been taken. I never said hey guys check out this awesome video it's pretty funny. I simply ask if shooting animals at long range could be considered fair chase? Not if the guys were making bad shots or not. I'm sorry if the video offended a few of you but the only way to show how an animal reacts to getting missed at long range is to actually show an animal being missed at long range. I asked for people to watch the deers reaction and nothing more and I clearly stated this in my post. I want to know if people think a deer will react the same being shot at from 300 as it would from 500+ and what type of reactions they have noticed in their own experiences. If you have anything to say relating to how an animal reacts to being shot at at various distances please feel free to respond otherwise I'd appreciate it if people would stop high jacking this thread.

Thanks!
 
I remember saying to myself after watching long range shooting on "Best of the West" that it would be more fuel for the antis to throw on the fire. I am totally against these long range five hundred and longer shots. Not just because you're more apt to cripple the animal, but because it is not sportsmanlike. What's wrong, are you too lazy to get closer or just a sorry ass hunter with no skills to do so? PC
 
Paul thanks for being the One to come up with the line in the sand of what constitutes an ethical range. So its 500 not 450 not 550 but 500. OK THANKS! Why would YOU shoot an animal at 400 are you too lazy or chitty to get closer?
 
wow that was painful to to watch!!! those guys need to learn how to shoot their rifles at those ranges...i chalk that up to inexperience....
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-11 AT 02:29PM (MST)[p]Sorry but you can't post a video like that, call it long range hunting and then expect us to only watch the deer and how it reacts and ask if its fair chase.
Fair chase to me is being prepared, taking time to improve yourself and your shooting so when you pull the trigger, you know where its going to hit! Fair chase is knowing when to pass a bad shot because you know you can't make the shot. Fair chase is knowing your limitations before you go into the field. Fair chase is not how close or far
you are to the animal, its being able to cleanly, quickly and effectively put the animal down without suffering.
Fair chase is NOT pulling your gun out the week before the hunt, shoot three bullets to see if you can hit a paper plate at 100 yards, then go out and shoot 2,3,400 yards with a hope and a prayer just trying to get lucky.
Fair chase is knowing that when you pull that trigger, that animal is going to die a quick, clean kill because youhave spent the time practicing and made that shot a1,000 times before.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-11 AT 02:48PM (MST)[p]You talk LR shooting then show a video showing some of your Jack-Wagon friends shooting long distance and they can't hit Crap but hey don't pay attention to that.
WTF you posted it(video) you get to hear what we think about it, I could care less what the deer do, it what you didn't do that counts.
Give me a couple boxes of shells somethings is going to die maybe that what your friends say..

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-11 AT 03:02PM (MST)[p]I agree with you(one-dryboot) for the most part you made some valid points there. The part I disagree with is the comment that says I can't post a video and asking people to watch how the deer reacts. Why not?? If I'm trying to show people how a deer reacts while being shot at 500+ yards then I don't see any other way to do it other then show a video of deer getting missed at 500+ yards. There's really no other way of doing it.
 
I can kill rocks and metal plates pretty consistant out to 700 yards (3 out of 4). I know what my 300 win mag with custom handload barnes triple shocks and vortex 3.5-10x50 with the bdc turret will do out to that range but will I take a shot at a deer that far? No, I will try to get closer I know I can make the shot but get buck fever pretty bad so I choose not to. I have a great respect for the guys that can do it right, everytime. The guys that can't or don't know their limits have no business. As far as making a law? There's no way or reason to.

I have never killed an animal past 14 yards with my bow and I'm proud of that. My first elk with a bow was at 6 feet, didn't use my sights I looked down the arrow. I have killed deer as close as 20 feet with my rifle out to 400 has been my farthest.

I have seen deer or elk that weren't even being shot at run from shots that were farther than 500 from them run. And this year I had a 190 class muley stand at 200 yards in short brush looking at me for 4 shots (ya it still haunts my dreams.... Buckfever.) Your arguement is bs and shouldn't be a concern especially by someone as hipocritical as you.

Before the ethics police come after me, to this day I have not drawn blood on an animal I did not recover.

4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
Huntindad4, you're right about that, but I don't think 400 is a long shot at all. However, I would try to get as close as possible. I was really thinking back to the guys shooting elk at 800 yards. I only used 500 because that is where the deer in the video weren't even spooked. PC
 
>
>
>I have seen deer or elk
>that weren't even being shot
>at run from shots that
>were farther than 500 from
>them run. And this year
>I had a 190 class
>muley stand at 200 yards
>in short brush looking at
>me for 4 shots (ya
>it still haunts my dreams....
>Buckfever.) Your arguement is bs
>and shouldn't be a concern
>especially by someone as hipocritical
>as you.
>
>Before the ethics police come after
>me, to this day I
>have not drawn blood on
>an animal I did not
>recover.
>
>http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/User_files
/4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg

Thanks this was the kind of reply I was looking for beside the name calling part.
 
all you gents saying you are hitting silouetes, plates ect at 700 yards plus, are probably doing so on a bench right ? do you guys pack a bench and sand bags up on the ridge? shooting from a bench and shooting from field positions regardles of your tri, bi pod or backpack in the bitterbrush is total different ballgame. my 2 pennies
 
Your trying to prove a point using one sided footage.you don't show the whole story.you only show what your trying to sell. I have seen animals at 1-200 yards sit there and just look around while being shot at. a bull elk at 90 yards stood for 5 shots with a muzzleloader before just walking off. Ya you don't see short range animals stand there for 10 shots because even the worst shot will hit the animal at close range given a few chances. I have seen animals run like hell after the first shot that was 500+yards.
So your trying to sell a story using only what you see fit. your trying to make it seem that all long range animals just stand there stupid and all short range animals run like hell.
 
Beav, I always shoot the same way I would in the field. For closer shots I'll sit using sticks,a tree ect... Longer shots I always shoot prone! Using my bi-pod and then stabilize the back of the stock using a backpack, rocks, whatever I see fit. If there is brush you can move until it is not a problem. if you can't get in a good shooting position where you can make the shot, then don't shoot.its that simple!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-11 AT 04:49PM (MST)[p]That's is good to know. I for one have never seen anything like this. Everything I've seen shot at past 500 yards did exactly what the deer in the video I posted did. As far as my video being one sided you are right but to be fair I don't have any footage of anything standing around getting missed at close range nor do I have any footage of animals running like hell after being missed at long range. I know it happens every now and then I've just never got footage of it. All the deer I've seen shot at past 500 just stood there and had no clue as to what was going on unless rocks were blown up on them or in front of them. In general shots between 400 and 300 the deer knew something was up and would run a bit after being shot at then stand there trying to figure what was going on. Most of the time anything under 300 the deer would just flat out run. There was one time I watch a bedded buck get missed twice at 150 yards. The guy shot over it on the first shot and the buck stayed bedded after missing high the 2nd time the buck bolted so I know there are exceptions but in general this is what I've seen. Until I see or hear otherwise I'm having a hard time considering shots taken past 500 yards as fair chase because from what I've seen they lose too much of their natural ability to detect the hunter. Just my opinion.
 
All the expert testimony coming from you experts that claim to have never taken what is considered a long range shot cracks me up. HunterX, you've obviously filmed deer that are great at estimating ranges. mtmuley
 
>all you gents saying you are
>hitting silouetes, plates ect at
>700 yards plus, are probably
>doing so on a bench
>right ? do you guys
>pack a bench and sand
>bags up on the ridge?
>shooting from a bench and
>shooting from field positions regardles
>of your tri, bi pod
>or backpack in the bitterbrush
>is total different ballgame. my
>2 pennies

I dont have a bench, when shooting under 300 i'm on sticks over 300 i'm laying prone.


4b1db2ac644136c4.jpg
 
hunterx,
if your not gonna use your head,you might as well have 2 #####'s
you can't hit ##### @ 212 yards,why the ##### do you think you can hit'em @ 500+ yards,i've got a 25-35 if you would like to borrow it for them sniper shots,
i'm sure glad your a ethical hunter out there trying to cripple animals,

"what a stooge"
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-11 AT 08:57PM (MST)[p]>all you gents saying you are
>hitting silouetes, plates ect at
>700 yards plus, are probably
>doing so on a bench
>right ? do you guys
>pack a bench and sand
>bags up on the ridge?
>shooting from a bench and
>shooting from field positions regardles
>of your tri, bi pod
>or backpack in the bitterbrush
>is total different ballgame. my
>2 pennies


I was shooting, and hitting targets at 1760 yards last week (that would be a mile)...Using bi-pods and a coat in the rear, I rarely shoot off a bench, except for load development, or cursory zero verification. Of course its not always possible to get prone in the field under hunting conditions..Guess what? If you cant get prone, or some other very solid comfortable position, it is a no shot situation at long range..FOR GUYS THAT KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING.

Some of you are against LR hunting, mostly because of vids just like this, and I'd agree with you..Not to knock anyone thats proficient with the LR made easy systems being marketed, cuz I know there are a few out there..But I hate them (BOTW and its ilk), because they market to guys that dont really want to do it right, dont want to learn what it takes, just want a fast easy shortcut.That equals disaster, IMO

On the other hand, most of the guys that want to take the easy route (and will proly never be good at shooting), are likely the same guys that never seen a shot they wouldnt take, no matter what the range, or the conditions.

Keep in mind, the reason these threads draw so much opposition is because there's a big difference between half assers, and guys that know what they are doing..



--------------------------------------

If rifle hunting was gay swbuckmaster would do it...
 
I don't claim to be an expert on anything since an expert is just a drip under pressure, as my Dad used to say, LOL! I would tend to say that what HunterX is trying to say may be accurate, but I will admit that it can also work the other way. The best mulie I've shot was only about 65 yards and it was just before legal quitting time. I was watching the sagebrush to the south when I saw him come over the hill and down onto the hillside to my left that I was sitting on. I adjusted my camera tripod for the shot and then squeezed off on what was a chip shot. He didn't bat an eye and I said WTF! I eased another one in the chamber and squeezed another one off and same thing! I eased another one into the chamber and finally realized that he had turned from broadside to head-on as I was adjusting the tripod for the first shot and he must have seen my movement. Anyway, I settled down and found his chest, rather than the sagebrush that I thought was his chest on the first two shots, and dropped him with the third shot. I would have never believed a mature animal like that would have stood there that close with that kind of noise and with the first two shots having to have passed very close to him. That is the only big game animal I've ever shot at that I didn't hit and kill with the first shot and I still can't believe he stood there like that! To this day I'm mad at myself for probably getting too excited because of his size and not realizing what had happened because it could have caused a wounded animal on those first two shots.

HunterX---I was on your side on what we were discussing that got you to start this thread, but I don't know how you didn't expect this thread to not turn into the zoo it has become when you posted that particular video! I feel it took a lot of, if not all, of your credibility on what ethical is away from you and what we were trying to get across and it darn sure didn't help me having initially sided with you. I have been shaking my head so much after watching it yesterday that I almost needed a trip to my chiropractor for a neck adjustment! I realize what you were trying to do, but that particular video wasn't the way to do it!

one_dryboot---Don't have a heart attack when you read this, but I'm pretty much with you 100% on your posts here on this thread! How about that, LOL!!!
 
The fact that you are using footage of deer missed at long range to make the point that it is just too damn easy yet they didn't get any of those deer seems to me to point out that maybe it isn't all that simple.

Their reaction if they could would be to laugh at the shooters and trample you into the dirt for continually (whether because your paid or because your friends with them and not man enough to tell them not to shoot beyond their capability) promoting the shooters.

I like others have said have seen all kinds of reactions on muleys and blacktails at all kinds of ranges with rifle and bow after missed shots and in my experience it has been more relative to age class and hunter pressure in the area than range. But what do I know I only have about 29 or so years of hunting experience to draw on and not much video footage of shots but none of misses to support my story. Kinda reminds me of the saying I saw it on the web so it must be true, only in this case I saw it on hunter-x's video so it must be true.

You keep taking footage of your harmless to the deer herd buddies and worrying about the reaction of the ones they miss and me and my friends and family will keep killing them and the only reaction they will have will be to die (9times outta 10) and the LAST thing on my mind will be whether YOU or anybody else for that matter approve of my shot.

Paul C your last post provides some clarity to your first and your opinion on the matter but my point is who are you to draw the line and decide where I or anybody else can shoot from.

Bill
 
the difference is around 400 yards...


--------------------------------------

If rifle hunting was gay swbuckmaster would do it...
 
hunter

shouldn't this be on the "club em with a stick " forum?

if you hit the target on the first shot it doesn't run away!
if your idea is to give them some warning shots maybe you and your friends should find a new sport.
are you bored and just trying to stir the chit?
 
the guys saying that 1000 yard shots are a chip shot when you have mad skills without a bench or sand bags.......i think the world of you all but i am going to call B.S. ! there is no way. maybe the wind doesn't blow in utah ??? i am no internet pro i shoot quite a good bit and have made my share of long shots not 600 + but it is very hard to get a good lock on the vitals in most circumstances. i will say i have zero doubt some guys could make me out to be a liar and i would agree with them it can be done. a couple years ago i was set up on a buck at 355 yards. even with a solid rest there was a slight breeze and i had to wait for quite some time to get a lock on the vitals. and this is less then half the yardage shots are bieng talked about. again..... some people CAN do it and do so with precision and mastery. but my thought is there will be too many " monkey see monkey do " guys out there who will be shooting at deer whenever the retical sweeps over or around the deer and shoot legs off, jaws off , hit the wrong deer ect.

i used to shoot with a guy before he passed that had a 700 yard range and rang the gong a ton. but this is in a controlled envirnment anybody could do it. but the feild is another thing all together. so my final word is the " pro's " keep on keepin' on ! to the wanna bee's practice, practice, buying a 6,000 $ dollar rig doesn't make you an all-pro.
 
Paul C I do see the difference and understand that not everyone should be shooting past 500 but then again not everyone should be shooting past 200 IMO.

Your 400 might be someone's 600 and another person's 800 and still another person's 200.

Way more to look at here than range such as wind, rest, animal position and attitude and most importantly the shooter's ability.

The people you need to convince not to do this are those who can't consistently and humanely hit the mark most likely because of lack of practice. But they will not stop unethical behavior because you ask them to. Remember ethics and unfortunately lack of ethics knows no boundaries, all hunter types contain both types and every shade of gray in between whether it be rifle, muzzy, compound, crossbow , pistol or traditional archery. You cannot police ethics.

Every hunter is capable of becoming proficient enough to stalk within feet of their prey and every hunter is capable of becoming proficient enough at long range to shoot game efficiently out to ranges beyond 500 yards with the right setup.Both take work and practice and as long as a hunter is willing to put in the work WHO THE HELL ARE YOU! to tell him which one he is allowed to enjoy! Its like telling fat ugly people not to breed.

Bill
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-11 AT 08:24AM (MST)[p]beavis14---Your post is basically what I have been saying from the get-go and getting castrated for!!! I think I'd be relatively safe in saying there are a lot more wannabes like those guys in the video than there are that can make those long distance shots. I know the longest shot I've ever attempted and made was 311 yards on a nice mulie that I couldn't get any closer to and on my max setting on my 3x9 Leupold he was more like a tiny dot than a deer at that distance. However, I do realize the guys successfully shooting these long shots have a lot higher power scopes with adjustable turrets though. I think I can pretty well look at a deer and know whether he is close enough for a high percentage shot without even ranging him and if I can't hold right on him at 9x to make the shot he's too far for my liking!

huntindad4---I think your post is pretty accurate on all aspects of hunting and I'm starting to come around to the realization that if guys can do what we are talking about that I should let them be and do more of my "preaching" to the wannabes and that's sort of what I've really meant all along and got carried away. I do feel that almost everyone on this site are what I would call very dedicated and passionate, as well as ethical in their approach to their particular method of hunting. Even though these discussions get heated, I will truthfully say that this site has the best bunch of what I would call true hunters than any I have ever been on!!!
 
"It's like telling fat, ugly people not to breed"

......but even that is OK, if they have a good solid rest, plenty of cover and enough gun to get the job done!

Personally, I just don't want to WATCH them do it!



"whackin' a surly bartender ain't much of a crime"
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-11 AT 04:32PM (MST)[p]oh never mind..

--------------------------------------

If rifle hunting was gay swbuckmaster would do it...
 
Hey everyone I know this is long but please read it.

Not bored or trying to cause a stir. The reason I post the video I was attempting to have an adult discussion about how deer react after being shot at in relationship to the distance they are being shot at from. Obviously I failed and failed big. But for the life of me I can't believe some of the comments that have been posted on this thread about the hunters in the video. None of you were there and none of you know these guys. So before you make any more judgments about these hunters please read what I've wrote below.

The first deer missed in the video happened in Nov of 2004. He was shot at by a 45 year grown man. It was his first deer hunt and he was very excited. I've only met the guy 1 time before this hunt. He started shooting his gun every weekend after he found out he drew the tag so about 5 months. He was comfortable shooting up to 300 yards or so and he was more then capable of making the shot he took. He took the shot of a tripod so he had a good rest. The deer was facing away for about 2 to 3 mins and the guy waited until the bucked turned broadside. He shot 1 time and missed. The bullet actually hit a single limb that the hunter didn't see. I don't know how bad this effected the shot or not but afterwords when I talked to him about it he said he felt good about the shot and he thought the branch is what caused the miss. He wasn't happy at all he missed and he was very upset about it for the rest of the hunt. Bottom line the guy did everything right he just missed. It happens. Does this guy deserve some of the things people said about the shooters in this video? Should he have his hunting license taken away and his gun shoved up his butt? I think not.


Now for the second deer shot at in the video. It happened Oct 2004. The hunters were a father and son team and it was only their 2nd year hunting. The boy was 13 at the time of this hunt. I was asked to go along and help glass and to video their hunt for them. We found the deer opening morning and closed the distance from 1000 yard to just above 200. Both the kid and the dad got set up on tripods so they too had a good rest to shot off of. The buck was feeding in front of us and was offering a quartering away shot. We waited 5 or so minutes for the buck to give a broadside shot. As soon as the buck turned the kid shot barely missing the buck by an inch or two high. Then the dad took a running shot fallowed up by another shot by the kid. All shots were clean misses and after talking to the kid about it he said he might have jumped the trigger a bit because he had buck fever. He too felt bad about missing the shots along with his dad. Once again they did just about everything right except for both of them taking a running shot after the first shot was missed. What can I say they got excited between the both of them they've hunted deer about 10 days in their whole life so I can understand why they were so excited. Do their actions warrant what has been said about them? I'd have to say no.

Now on to the 3rd deer in the video. This happened in 2008. The hunter has been hunting for years and knows a lot about guns and shoots year round. I have seen this guy shoot and he's an excellent shot. I hunted with him for quite a while and he is a very good friend of mine. I've been with him for three of his deer kills and this is the first time I've seen him not kill a deer he has shot at. I don't know everything about his gun other then it's a long range set up and he's comfortable up to 700 yards with it and more then capable of make a 500 yard shot. He was set up on a tripod so he had a good rest. His first shot was about 2 feet high but I didn't see it because I flinched from the muzzle blast. This gun had a muzzle break and was extremely loud. I could see a bit of dust and it looked like he shot high so I told him maybe high. He decided to make no adjustments for his second shot because we didn't know for sure where the first bullet hit. His second shot was high again and this time I saw it and when I told him where he hit he couldn't believe it. He checked his turrets and they were off from where he thought they were so he cranked them down and took another shot hitting low this time. He said a few choice words and made 1 final adjustment and took two more shots that went right under the buck. None of his shots were rushed shots or shots that he wasn't capable of making. The guy just missed a tough shot to make. All shots were good broadside shots. After we got back to the truck he shot a box of shells out of his gun at various distance to make sure his gun was still on. After he found out that his gun was still on he was very upset with himself that he didn't have his turrets dialed in correctly. Mistakes happen and in the 15 years that I've been hunting with the guy this is the first time I've seen him not miss like this. So should I have taken his gun from him and shoved it up his ass? He's a grown man more then capable of making a 500 yard shot and I've seen him do it time and time again. Who am I to tell a guy that is a better shot then me that he needs to stop shooting. Does this warrant the things said about the shooters in this video? If it does then more then half the hunter out there need to have there license taking away and should just quit hunting.

On to the 4th deer missed in the video. This happened Nov 2007. The hunter is a 23 year old young man who has been hunting and shooting his whole life. He shoots year round every chance he gets and is a very good shot. I've seen him at the range and he's good up to 600 yards. We start off by getting the hunter set up on a tripod so he has a good rest. He watched the buck in his scope for a good 5 mins preparing himself before taking a shot at the buck. After this time he felt pretty confident he could make the shot and he told me as soon as the buck stops he was going to shot. The buck stops and 10 seconds later the hunter shoots missing the buck barely over his back. The shot was perfect left and right but 6 inches higher then what he was aiming for. I don't know about you but being off by 6 inches at 550 yards isn't a that bad of a shot. It's probably comparable to being off by 1 or 2 inches at 100 yards. Anyways he takes his time and takes three more shots at the buck missing on all three shots. The buck wasn't going anywhere and the hunter could have easily taken more shots but he had the will power to do the right thing and realized he should probably stop shooting so he did. We were able to watch the buck for good 15 mins and all this time the hunter could be taking more shots at the buck but he didn't. To this day I still think very highly of this guy for electing to not shoot anymore at this buck. He didn't say much on the 2 hour hike back to the truck needless to say he was very disappointed in himself. He even had two more days to hunt but he choose not to hunt anymore because he was so upset with himself so we went home early. Since then I've had the please of hunting with this guy this past season in 2010. During this hunt he had bucks in his scope on 7 different occasions twice at around 8oo yards, twice around 600, twice around 450, and once at 375. Never once did he take a shot because the right situation never presented itself. He could have easily taken numerous shots that other hunters probably would have taken but he didn't. So once again does this hunter deserve the crap that has been posted? I'm going to say hell no on this one!

Now for the last missed buck on the video. The hunters are the same father and son team as in the second video one year later it happened Oct of 2005. The kid is now 14 and this is only the third time they've been deer hunting. We find this buck on opening morning. After finding the buck I locate what looks to be like a good spot for the guys to shot from. I range it out and it is 500 yards from our current position. To me it looks like they should be around 300 yards from the deer from this spot so that's what I tell them. When they get over to the shooting location the dad ranges the deer but it won't work. He tries a few more times and still couldn't get it to work so he thought it must be busted. Well since I told him I thought it should be around 300 yards that's what he thought it was. Boy was I off. For some reason just before getting set up to shoot they separate from each other by about 100 yards I never ask why they did this but they did. So the shots were coming in from different angles. This is why they look like they are hitting all over the place but shots from both the dad and the kid were pretty close left and right considering the distance. They both get set up on their tripods and wait for the buck to offer them a shot. When the buck finally stops broadside the kid shoots and misses. Well we all know whats going to happen if your shooting a 600 yard shot with a 308 using 150 gr corelocks with a gun zeroed in at 100 yards. Your going to hit very low. So low that I couldn't see where they were hitting in my viewfinder. So long story short they both empty there guns taking 5 shots each. Out of these 10 shots 8 were standing broadside or quartering away. I can't remember how many shots it took for me to realize how low they were hitting but I know it was at least after the 5th or 6th shot before I was able to see where they were hitting. After they got done unloading their guns and stopped to reload I tried to reach them on the radio to see how far they were from the deer but they couldn't hear me on their end. After reloading the kid takes one more shot and this time the dad sees just how low they are hitting so he tells his kid to stop shooting and to try and get closer. As the kid works his way closer the bucks finally spooks and starts to take off. Well the kid see this and sets up as quick as he can and takes two running shots both missing just behind the buck. He tries his best to calm his nerves and realized he needs to wait for the buck to stop before shooting again. The kid gets 2 more shots both standing broadside barely missing both. After everything was said and done we all talk for quite a while on what could have been done differently. We all agreed the major contributing factor in all this was the lack of experience. If the dad would have known more about rangefinders they would have never shot from where they did and should have been able to sneak up to within 200 yards. Since then they have both learned a lot more about hunting and as far as I know they have not missed any shots of their shots. The dad took a 160 class buck in 09. He had the buck at 300 yards but knew he could get closer. He ended up closing the distance to a measly 45 yards before making a good clean broadside kill on his 1st shot. The son also took a buck in 09 at 120 yards this too was a one shot kill.

These guys aren't what's wrong with hunting today and they definitely don't deserve the comments that some of you have posted about them. They all try their best to be good ethical hunters. They do not go out every hunting season and lob bullets hoping one will hit. They do not dust their guns off a week before they hunt and hope it's still sighted in. Sure they made some mistakes but who here hasn't? Does this mean they should have their guns shoved up the asses and never be able to hunt again. I'm pretty sure majority of hunters out there has missed a shot or two in their lifetime. I really don't care what people say about me because I know who I am and I know I'm not what some of you say I am. But to say what has been said about these other guys by people that have no clue who they are and how they hunt is totally uncalled for and is complete garbage.
 
so what was your point on this post ?

you defend the guys who missed in your video and then tell everyone else that they shouldn't take long shots.

how far of a shot is to far?
 
HunterX---IMHO you can't blame anybody but yourself for what was said after we watched that video. It's a little late to tell us all of this now because it should have been done BEFORE the video was posted if you didn't want or figure all those types of comments would be coming. I almost sent you a PM to suggest that you not do what you told us you were going to do and I sure would have if I had seen that video before you posted it! I will go along with a lot of what you just said, but no matter who the people were, at least in the one instance where they didn't have a clue where their first couple shots hit, they should have quit and attempted to get closer or figure out what was going on. That's why I was so mad at myself after missing those two close shots I mentioned on that buck I got just before dark, but because he was so close I at least knew I had to be within a couple inches of him on the first two shots.
 
To quote a certain someone:

"The only folks who think shooting is "difficult",is them who don't do much of it."

Funny how those that do will nod their heads up and down..those that dont will get defensive.

--------------------------------------

If rifle hunting was gay swbuckmaster would do it...
 
I just seen this thread and the video has been removed from Youtube???? I need to see this video so I can give my expert armchair opinion on the matter!
 
"I give up...Huntin' dad 4...You must be the most uneducated idiot in the world. Use context clues moron!! pc"

Wow Paul! Not sure where that came from.

If memory serves context clues are hints in a sentence to help the reader understand a word that they would normally have to look up in a dictionary. I suppose it could also be used to help to understand a concept that the reader does not have the factual knowledge to grasp. SOOO.....

Wouldn't the uneducated idiotic moron need concept clues to understand the word/sentence/topic? And the smart guy would be the one needing to enter them in the sentence to help the moron to understand???

Wait were you even directing that at me or???

Bill
 
Bill, just rattlin' your cage. It's what I do best..

Plus, you are totally correct. It was refreshing to hear the very words I used teaching English language arts for fifteen years.

Have a great weekend, Paul

PS...Budweiser time!!!
 
I guess the truth just bites a bit sometimes! LOL

I have been called an idiot before and a moron and probably even uneducated but when you used all three at once I was crushed! HaHa!

I should have known you were one of them damn school teachers.

Have a good one and drink a cold Bud for me.

Bill
 
Cripes Bill, you've got it made if they're only calling you an idiot or moron! They haven't called you Hitler or Gestapo yet like they did me on that one thread recently, LOL!!!
 
haha...Gawd!! I thought I had a bad reputation. You two take the cake..Just got back from Visalia with the grand kids. I'm done in..Now it is really Bud time!!! pc
 
Bla bla bla muther truckin bla to each his own shoot what you are capable of shooting ethically and on a consistant basis.

x why did you remove the video from this site ?




'IT AINT EASY BEING ME'
 
It could be DWR was look at it too. LOL

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
 

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