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YNP Wolf Expert

While Buzz makes some good points, Zeke pretty well nails it. State management is never a guarantee as the Feds power trumps any state law, FEIS or not.

Sagebrush is very correct in stating, "A determined group of dedicated hunters and trappers will never get the population down below the objective." We can look at Alaska and analyze what has and is going on there. Experts say hunting and trapping alone won't control the wolf numbers there. Aerial gunning is the main method to control wolf populations. Do you think for a moment the Montana and Idaho Game Departments will go this route. What about Government full time trappers. Sure it is a good thing that we can now hunt wolves in those states but it won't make a whole lot of difference in my estimation.

In the Mexican Wolf Recovery area here in NM and AZ we are facing a whole nother situation. As we speak the pro wolfers and Feds. are trying to move the goal posts. Buzz, we are fighting for our very existence here and have many years of wrangling with the lawsuits present and coming down the pike. Do you think the Center for Biological Diversity and the Wildearth Guardians are going to give up easily and let us manage these revered critters roaming on their mother earth alter. I estimate we are many years out. What do we do in the meantime? Yes we the people living here whom have to deal directly with the consequences are taking it in the shorts.

For you guys to say well the wolves are here to stay so we just as well adjust to it, I say baloney. We will keep up the fight with Ryan Benson, the SCI and all the rest whom are trying their very best to help the folks down here. They are also working hard to protect Wyoming as well as Idaho and Montana and the northern tier of states whom are being vitally affected.

I for one applaud Wyoming for holding tight. At least for the time being the ranchers and wildlife managers in the much larger part of the state and can breath a little easier.
 
stoney - I don't know what its like on your side of the line but the Mexican wolf isn't fairing so well on our side. As long as the wolfies stay with that subspecies, I think we will be able to control the numbers. Sounds like the additional plants in units 22 & 23 will be rammed down our throats regardless of the public outcry. MGW's don't seem to do too well in close proximity to communities with high hunter densities like Show Low and Payson.
 
sagebrush,

http://www.endangeredworkingcattleman.org/mexican-wolf-update-az-gf-8-2013/

AZ currently has 6 packs of wolves running on Forest Service, San Carlos Apache and White Mountain Apache. NM has 7 packs and a few single collared wolves for a total that the FWS says are around 75 wolves with several of the packs having pups last year. We estimate many more than that.

They are killing cattle and elk on both sides of the state line as we speak, and although the SSS modus operandi is at work in both States it is only a drop in the bucket.

Like you say they are shoving them down our throats irregardless of what havoc it is wrecking on our local citizens and local economies.

Buzz, The Game Dept.'s of both states are trying to get into the chief management drivers seat but the seat is on backwards. The Feds and the pro wolfers' are in the drivers seat.
 
State management is never a guarantee as the Feds power trumps any state law, FEIS or not.

Not true. Read the FEIS and pay attention to the 10(j) rule. Pay attention to the population objectives as well, what triggers delisting and what will cause relisting.

The only way the States are going to lose control of wolf management is if wolves dip below established minimums. Otherwise, the Feds are out of the wolf business.

Sagebrush is very correct in stating, "A determined group of dedicated hunters and trappers will never get the population down below the objective." We can look at Alaska and analyze what has and is going on there. Experts say hunting and trapping alone won't control the wolf numbers there.

Did you find this information on lobowatch...or from the Bensen/Peay wolf propaganda web site?

Its more than a bit disengenuous to compare Alaska with the lower-48. The amount of land mass, wolf populations, access, human density, hunter densities, prey densities, are just a bit different...dont you think? Nothing like comparing aardvarks and oranges...WOW!


Aerial gunning is the main method to control wolf populations. Do you think for a moment the Montana and Idaho Game Departments will go this route. What about Government full time trappers. Sure it is a good thing that we can now hunt wolves in those states but it won't make a whole lot of difference in my estimation.

Both ariel gunning and Government hunters have been, and continue to be used, to control wolves. Been that way since reintroduction. Again, try reading the 10(j) rule...google is your friend here.

Buzz, we are fighting for our very existence here and have many years of wrangling with the lawsuits present and coming down the pike.

You always this dramatic? Fighting for your very existence...really? Dont tell me the wolves are snatching kids from the bus stops.

Do you think the Center for Biological Diversity and the Wildearth Guardians are going to give up easily and let us manage these revered critters roaming on their mother earth alter. I estimate we are many years out. What do we do in the meantime? Yes we the people living here whom have to deal directly with the consequences are taking it in the shorts.

I heard the same arguments from the drama queens in MT, ID, and WY as well. "We'll never hunt wolves"..."We'll never hunt bison"...yeah, bullchit. Both happened and if not for Wyomings dual classification it would have happened even sooner. You can blame all the wolf hippies you want...Wyoming held up delisting and State Control longer than all the wolf hippie groups combined. Just a simple fact.

For you guys to say well the wolves are here to stay so we just as well adjust to it, I say baloney. We will keep up the fight with Ryan Benson, the SCI and all the rest whom are trying their very best to help the folks down here.

The only thing Ryan Bensen has ever fought was the Simpson/Tester rider that actually got the wolves into State Management. Hardly the work of someone who is really concerned about State Rights and State wolf control. Running static and fighting legislation to delist wolves is not doing chit to help anyone.

They are also working hard to protect Wyoming as well as Idaho and Montana and the northern tier of states whom are being vitally affected.

Nope, wrong again. The mid-west states right to manage wolves was a direct spin-off of the Simpson/Tester rider...period. I have emails from BGF/Benson, claiming that the mid-west States were screwed and would "never get wolves delisted thanks to the S/T bill. You need to brush up on the facts...jack.

I for one applaud Wyoming for holding tight. At least for the time being the ranchers and wildlife managers in the much larger part of the state and can breath a little easier

I can tell you that a majority of Wyoming hunters were not real happy with Wyomings stance, in particular since it stalled delisting for several years. If the court cases that Wyomings plan has caused, dont go the right way...there wont be much applauding going on.

There were other ways to accomplish the same thing...without using MY PUBLIC WILDLIFE as a poker chip.

You dont know much about whats gone on here...unlike you, I'm not forced to guess...I live(d) it.
 
Buzz,

Yes you have lived it up there and I have lived it down here. On the contrary I have many friends up your way that keep me very informed.I am living it here so don't even try to go there. I know what these wolves have and are doing to our elk and livestock. I know how the NM and AZ Game Dept.'s have sucked up to the Feds have actually enabled them. AZ is the worst. We have spent an inordinate amount of time and money going to meetings with them and the Game Commission's of both states to no avail. We aren't quitting. I live breath and fight for my livelihood and my rancher friends whom are getting hit hard. For you Buzz to be so arrogant in this regard is absolutely stupefying!

We have had wolves on several occasions near our children at bus stops. You have to understand that these wolves here are human habituated and some are pen raised. Last year my daughter was walking my 8 yr. old grandson to the school bus and they were met face to face at ten yards by a translocated wolf and she ran back and got her camera and pistol and decided not to shoot it because of all the consequences. The wolf moved off up to the neighbors where two other small boys were waiting at their bus stop so she jumped in her pkup and drove up there until the wolf left. The pathetic USFWS personnel that finally recaptured the poor damn wolf were absolutely freakin on the dole wolf lovin no good low lifes. Helicopters, nets and then cuddling the poor starving critter like it was their own baby. My God what has this world come to.

As far as Alaska goes I have several good friends whom are outfitters and one who was put out of the moose and caribou hunting business when aerial gunning was stopped by a liberal minded governor. He said even now with a more limited aerial gunning program it will take 30 years for the moose and caribou herds to return to their former numbers. He still guides for Brown Bear.

I'm very familiar with the 10j rule and its supposed mission of management flexibility. I am very familiar with the ever changing Standard Operating Procedures SOP's they use to twist and turn their wolf management here. Now we are in the USFWS's process of a new EIS undoing all of the original Mexican Wolf Experimental Population 10j rule and proposing a new Final 10j rule under 50 CFR 17.81. They want to declassify the 10j into a Distinct Population Segment DPS and put them on the fully Endangered Species list.

Along with that they want to substantially expand the primary recovery area, basically encompassing everything from I 40 on the north to I 10 on the south through both AZ and NM.

They are also wanting the ability for the wolves to roam from this area north into Utah and Colorado and south into Mexico and a part of Texas. They will call it the Mexican Wolf Experimental Population Area. MWERA

They want to be able to direct release wolves into all portions of the new proposed recovery area. Right now they are supposed to only direct release in the AZ primary recovery area and they bent the original 10j rule to translocate problem wolves from there into the secondary recovery area in NM.

This is just a portion of them moving the goal posts and they won't stop at the 100 wolf goal and lawsuits will drag it out like they did up north until wolf numbers get out of control.

Buzz, I will match you any day of the week and twice on Sundays as to what is going on and what is and has happened especially down here, and I have too many outfitter friends up your way whom keep me posted on your particular issues and have spent countless hours studying and fighting this Government sponsored terrorism program.

Time will tell but Wyo. didn't cave into the extremists and the ass kissers. It may jump up and bite them but I don't think so. It took too many years of negotiations to pull that off.

You can pick and choose and badmouth the real shakers and movers in this anti wolf movement but at least we are fighting for what is right.
 
Buzz,

I think stoney just put or (stoned) you into your corner with your tail between your legs... I think he has your number!!!

Bravo stoney!!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-14 AT 07:11PM (MST)[p]30 years before the moose and caribou herds recover? that's some funny stuff there.
 
Piper and mtmuley

You two still can not decide what or who's side your on. You both live in the west and claim to be sportsman. But you are defending the single most dangerous threat to our hunting future "The Wolf Machine" It's not just the dog you dumb a$$es!!!! Some day if you really are sportsman, your both going to regret how stupid you have been. You both think your so smart, fellas you need to wake up!!!!!
 
I have to say BuzzH hit it with post #103. If it wasn't for WY the wolves would have been delisted and the states having hunting and trapping season a lot sooner. All one had to do at the time was read court documents to understand that was the only thing in the way of delisting.

I just hope Oregon and Washington will have hunting and trapping seasons as soon as the wolves are taken off the state endangered species list.

The ID wolf court case only happened because the hunter/trapper was in a wilderness area. He as able to remove 9 wolves from 2 packs then ID game department pulled him out before they had to go to court. You can read about it here. http://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-n...f/2014/01/idaho_wolf_hunter_called_off_a.html

You can not really compare Alaska to the lower 48. Just look at the land mass, lack of roads, low population up there compared to down here. We should have a little easier time managing wolf populations if we can have hunting and trapping seasons. Lets just hope states don't vote to ban trapping which groups are trying to do now and in the past.
 
If it was not for the Wyoming "Predator Zone" Colorado would be tying to figure out a management plan just like Oregon and Washington. Buzz might have a little different spin on wolves too, cause without the predator zone his Laramie herd might look a little different... You guys forget the first lie..300 Canis lupus or 10 breeding pairs. Now your patting each other on the back for the best management of "F'n" Thousands. Correct me if I am wrong doesn't Wyoming have the fewest wolves between Montana Idaho and Wyoming. Who is the real smart ones here? Probably have to go with Wyoming for holding to their guns!

From personal experience hunting the new educated wolf of today... Your $600 fox pro is NOT going to keep your elk hunting in tact. The predator zone may have slowed things down but that type of management is the only chance we have of real management. That is, other than the SSS fellas!
 
Minor correction stoney, the proposed southern boundary of the MWEPA is the Mexican border in AZ. I imagine the northern boundary will be moved to the big ditch once one of the wolves crosses I-40. The wolf hippies are already eyeing the Strip and the Kaibab and that would make the entire state a wolf sancutary.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-29-14 AT 09:30PM (MST)[p]Its all about habitat wolfhunter, Wyoming has less wolf habitat the Montana and Idaho, they usually get in trouble and get killed by the wildlife service when they wander into the open and more populated areas.

And just exactly tell me how those elk herds are still over objective in southern Montana where the Northern Yellowstone herds winter? whats going on, and again, what's the biggest threat to elk herds?
 
piper,

Please dont provide any intuitively obvious facts to wolfhunter...

Wyoming has always had, and will always have, the lowest wolf populations between the three states.

Thats not because of the predator zone.

Also, the same thing could have happened 4-5 years sooner if Wyoming would have used their heads...really easily.

But, Wyomings stock growers association sure "showed" them Feds...

Laffin'...
 
You
>guys forget the first lie..300
>Canis lupus or 10 breeding
>pairs. Now your patting each
>other on the back for
>the best management of "F'n"
>Thousands. Correct me if
>I am wrong doesn't Wyoming
>have the fewest wolves between
>Montana Idaho and Wyoming.
>Who is the real smart
>ones here? Probably have
>to go with Wyoming for
>holding to their guns!



The numbers of wolves/packs is what it takes to be delisted in the state. If the states ever go below that level the feds will take over management. That is why the states allow the populations to go over that level to make sure they always stay in control. Do you want wolves to be federally listed and in control of the feds with no more hunting or trapping season?

Do a little research on wolf habitat and then look at ID, MT, and WY. I think you will figure out why WY will never have as many wolves as ID and MT. Nice try.
 
Never in my whole life did I think a group of hunters could be so stupid and blind. I bet you brain hemorrhages watched the State of the union address and came away feeling the affordable care act was right on track for our country with the wolves too...

mtmuley I would not call it advocating for poaching. I would call noticing people who live with wolves, like the good people of Salmon Idaho who are fed up with losing 40-60 percent of their elk herd. Then being told by jokers like you they are uneducated or extreme. Those people who sat by and listened to the so called educated propaganda rants. Waiting for legal management. In the meantime they watched the herd numbers spiral down. And finally deciding that if their children were going to hunt elk like they did, they where going to have to take maters into their own hands. Protect their own back yard by what ever means necessary.... Look the IFG knows how bad the wolf problem is in the Frank Church Wilderness, but they pull Gus (the trapper) out for fear of going to court. So I guess what I am saying is the local guy who can see what needs to happen and simply takes care of it, is a real patriot...That is what I am saying mtmuley.

It's funny to me how I have brought up the wolf disaster of the Frank Church Wilderness with Buzz many times and all I get is crickets... So how about it again Buzz what should the good people of Salmon ID do??? Talking is not working... legal hunts and trapping are not working... even the IFG cannot do what they know is right for fear of a lawsuit????
 
wolfhunter,

How about all the tuffies in Salmon try staying out of the bars, pack up their stuff like "gus", and head into the Church. A team of 2 guys could legally kill 10 wolves between them.

That might actually require prying themselves off a bar stool or the couch.

Why would you advocate poaching...when they cant even kill a wolf with a 6 month season and 5 tags? Maybe theres a trap shortage in Salmon?

As to the elk around Salmon, I have a couple friends that live in Salmon. One cant keep the elk off his green fields, and allows the locals to hunt his place. He hunts the Frank, and surrounding area, and kills elk every year.

I also have a friend in Challis that kills elk every year in, or near, the Frank every year. His family has an outfitting business and they do quite well.

The wolf has become the "go-to" excuse for why the lazy cant fill elk tags. I've worked in the Church, and around the Church, for the last decade. The elk are there, and I'd guess anyone with even a hint of physical ability, 2 firing brain cells, and an elk tag would be eating elk steaks all winter.

Its time to drop the excuses...management is in the hands of the states. Time for the tuffies to get off the couch and become pro-active in wolf management.

If all they want to do is belly-ache...well they can just order another shot and beer...and cry on the tuffies shoulder on the next bar stool.
 
buzz

No FACTS from you? You Just belittle the good people of Salmon again. I guess you have no argument. I think you actually believe your better than everyone else. Your arrogance is humorous!! I would bet you what ever amount of money you want Buzz that you could not go to Salmon Id and kill two wolves in 5 days... That is giving you more than double the derby time. Challenge?????????? Are willing to put money where your mouth is?? You know the Frank so well.

mtmuley You would not be able to understand what it means to be a patriot, being the sheep that you are. Your just use to getting in line and having someone else form your thoughts. You had better just spend more time with your liberal friends they will comfort you!
 
wolfhunter,

I'm telling you, if the Salmon tuffies want to solve the wolf problem...its up to them to do it.

They have a 6 month season, can buy 5 tags for about the price of one tank of fuel. They're within easy driving range of wolves. If they were to fill their Idaho Tags, they can be in Montana in 35 minutes...with another pocket full of tags. If they cant find the ambition to help themselves...well, too bad. Oh, I know, its easier to hire a real hunter to find wolves. What a joke.

Its not my fault they suck more at hunting predators than they do elk.

The couple serious hunters I know in the Salmon/Challis areas are still killing elk every year. They dont make excuses...they just flat get it done.

BTW, I killed another bull in 3 hours of hunting in Montana this year in "wolf central", as per usual. Not sure how I pull that off year after year in wolf country...must be "luck".
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-30-14 AT 09:38PM (MST)[p]Buzz,

Your missing the point. It is not about just killing an elk in Salmon. Sure there are still a few around. The point is the numbers of elk are going down every year(FACT) The wolves are getting a hell of a lot smarter and harder to kill (FACT). The trend is not good for the future generations(FACT). All the while your blaming laziness of hunters(FICTION). You pride yourself on killing rag horn bulls(FUNNY). Lets see you man up a little and go to Salmon and down a couple wolves(IN YOUR DREAMS). Like I said rag horn bulls is child's play(FACT). Salmon is one of the highest concentration of wolves in the lower 48(FACT).... If your half the man you try to be on these pages it should be no trouble(LAUGHING). Remember I said Idaho was going to be forced to fire up the helo's or get out the poison to clean house on wolves(FACT). Prove me wrong BUZZ google something!(DREAMING)..... Like I said earlier too, wolf reintroduction will go down as the biggest wildlife FUK-up of all times(FACT)

Why have you not taken any more jabs at stoney. He slapped you around at your own game. Did he have to many Facts for you.
 
Predators play a part in deer and elk populations. We can't just pick one predator when there is several out there affecting our game along with a long list of other issues. Here is a little more info what affects our elk in North America.

http://www.fs.fed.us/database/feis/animals/mammal/ceel/all.html

Conception dates in late summer and fall and thus timing of parturition in late spring and early summer are related to cow nutritional condition, cow lactation status, and bull age [230]. In general, cows in good physical condition conceive earlier than those in poor condition [312]. Because lactating cows are generally in relatively poor condition, they often conceive later than nonlactating cows [208,312]. In Oregon, cows with the highest kidney fat indices (indicating good physical condition) conceived on average 19 days earlier than cows with the lowest kidney fat indices [312].

Conception dates tend to be later and less synchronous in herds where yearling males do most of the breeding [221,230]. In captive elk populations in southwestern Oregon, births of yearling-sired calves peaked in early July, whereas calves sired by 2.5- and 3.5-year-old bulls were born in late May and early June [120]. In an experimental, semi-confined population at the Starkey Experimental Forest and Range in northeastern Oregon, conception dates of elk cows bred by 4- and 5-year-old bulls were on average 16 days earlier than conception dates of cows bred by yearlings [208]. Bull age also alters the length of the rut [230]. When 5-year-old bulls were the primary breeders at the Starkey Experimental Forest and Range, the rut was 41 days, whereas the rut lasted 71 days when yearling bulls were the primary breeders [208]. Late conception dates resulting from a delayed or lengthened rutting season may reduce calf survival because late-born calves may not have enough time to grow adequately and build fat reserves before forage becomes limited and environmental conditions worsen in winter [221,230]. For more information, see Calf survival.

Pregnancy rates of yearlings range from 0 to 81% [221], while pregnancy rates of older cows are higher: for 2.5-year-olds, 33% to 92%, and for 3.5- to 7.5-year-olds (?prime? cows), 49% to 99%. Calf production typically declines in cows >7.5 years old. Prime cows are the major contributors to the productivity of elk populations [230].

The age at which a cow elk first breeds is related to her body weight and physical condition [58,230,344]. According to a review, about half of cow elk come into estrus at 70% of mature weight [128]. Captive elk cows in Alberta weighing <420 pounds (190 kg) during the rut generally did not breed, and cows weighing <510 pounds (230 kg) had a reduced probability of breeding [127]. In the northern Yellowstone herd, no yearling elk weighing <335 pounds (152 kg) became pregnant, whereas 10% of yearlings weighing 335 to 359 pounds (152-163 kg) and 25% of yearlings weighing 359 to 373 pounds (163-169 kg) became pregnant (Greer 1968 cited in [230]). Most 2.5-year-old females are large enough to breed [344] although, in the Oregon Coast Range, many cows failed to breed until 3.5 or 4.5 years old apparently because of poor physical condition (Stussy 1993 cited in [344]).

Nutrition during the previous year may affect yearling breeding rates. In 2 populations in Utah, yearling cows were less likely to breed after a severe winter (0%) than after a mild winter (11-66%). Excessive winter weight loss apparently precluded yearlings from breeding the following fall because a greater proportion of nutrition in summer was allocated to recovery than to growth [105].

Reproductive success in cows is influenced largely by physical condition. During an 8-year study at Starkey Experimental Forest and Range, pregnancy rates of females were positively related to kidney fat index (P=0.04) [209]. In the northern Yellowstone elk herd, as body fat in mid-winter declined, the probability of pregnancy declined. Lactating cows, often in poorer physical condition than nonlactating cows [60], tend to have lower pregnancy rates than nonlactating cows, especially after severe winters or on poor quality rangelands [58,221,230]. Studies in Oregon found pregnancy rates of 48% to 82% for lactating cows and 75% to 100% for nonlactating cows ([312], Harper 1971 cited in [230]). At Starkey Experimental Forest and Range, lactating cows in poor physical condition (indicated by low rump fat) were less likely to become pregnant than lactating cows in good physical condition [290].
 
Sex ratios: Sex ratios of elk at birth are generally close to parity or skewed towards males [221,230]. In captive elk, mothers in good physical condition produced more males than females (P<0.01), whereas mothers in poor condition produced equal numbers of each gender [144]. Similarly, throughout Oregon, cows in poor condition (low kidney fat index) were more likely to produce daughters than cows in good condition [152]. At the National Elk Refuge, Wyoming, elk were supplementally fed for about 3 months during winter for 4 years. In years when supplemental feeding began early, more male calves were born in spring (R?= -0.70, P=0.02). Either survival of male fetuses was favored by nutritional supplementation early in gestation, or survival of female fetuses was reduced by winter stress on gravid females [280].
Adult sex ratios may be highly skewed towards females, particularly in hunted populations. According to Peek [221], adult sex ratios in elk populations may vary from as low as 4 bulls:100 cows in heavily hunted populations to >40 bulls:100 cows in "relatively unexploited" populations with quality forage. Bull:cow ratios may decline as population density increases. In Yellowstone National Park, the bull:cow ratio declined from 62:100 when the population consisted of 5,000 elk to 47:100 4 years later when the population had increased to 12,000 elk.

Hunting: According to reviews, hunting is the major source of adult elk mortality in most populations [221,230,344]. In a north-central Idaho population, annual survival rates of hunted bulls averaged 60% during 5 years, whereas survival rates of cows subjected to limited hunting averaged 89% [320]. A hunted elk population segment in New Mexico had 55% survival, whereas an unhunted population segment had 91% survival (White 1985 cited in [230]).

High hunting pressure coupled with high exposure in areas with dense roads may reduce elk survival [230]. Annual survival rate was 41% for >2-year-old bulls and 44% for yearling bulls in a roaded area and 78% for >2-year-old bulls and 79% for yearling bulls in an unroaded area in north-central Idaho (Unsworth and Kuck 1991 cited in [230]). In northeastern Oregon, increased road access and loss of cover apparently led to a posthunting bull:cow ratio decline from >15:100 to <5:100 (Leckenby and others 1991 cited in [230]).

Predators: Primary elk predators include gray wolves, coyotes (Canis latrans), American black bears (Ursus americanus), grizzly bears (Ursus arctos horribilis), and mountain lions (Puma concolor) [230,358]. Predators are a particularly important source of calf mortality in summer [221,344]. According to a 2006 review, annual elk calf mortality from Washington, Wyoming, and Idaho ranged from 44% to 98%, and highest annual mortality was caused by bears (Ursus spp.), mountain lions, and coyotes [358]. In the northern Yellowstone elk herd, predation was the greatest source of calf mortality (44%) during 4 years. All but one instance of predation occurred during summer. Winter malnutrition (23%) was the second leading cause of elk calf mortality [267].

Predators also kill older individuals. Along the North Fork of the Flathead Valley in northwestern Montana and southeastern British Columbia, gray wolf-caused mortality rates were not different among age classes [159]. In Banff National Park, Alberta, gray wolves killed a higher proportion of adult males and calves than occurred in the population. Adult elk killed by gray wolves were older and in poorer condition than those killed on the road or railway [130]. Conversely, in the Greater Yellowstone Area, gray wolves tended to select elk calves and adult females; 43% of elk killed were calves, 28% were adult females, and 21% were adult males [281]. In the Gallatin Canyon, Montana, gray wolves tended to select elk calves and adult males; adult females were killed by gray wolves 33% less often than expected by chance, adult males were killed 2.2 times more often, and calves were killed 2.5 times more often [67]. In Riding Mountain National Park, Manitoba, gray wolves killed more elk >11.5 years old (47%) than younger animals (26-27%), and elk killed were in good physical condition [45]. Other studies in Glacier National Park area [38] and the northern Greater Yellowstone Area [86] reported that gray wolves killed old adults more frequently than young adults. Along the North Fork of the Flathead Valley, young (≤2 years old) and old (≥8 years old) elk were most vulnerable to mountain lion mortality [159].

Winter severity may influence gray wolf predation on elk. In Banff National Park, calf movements were hindered by shallower snow depths than adult movements, which made them more vulnerable to gray wolf predation. Calves and adult elk occurred in approximately equal numbers in gray wolf diets when snow was 0 to 20 inches (0-50 cm) deep, and calves predominated in the diet when snow was 20 to 24 inches (50-60 cm) deep; only adults were killed in snow >24 inches deep. Although calves occurred in snow >24 inches deep, they may have been less abundant than in shallow snow [129]. In Yellowstone National Park, gray wolf kill rate was higher and mean marrow fat content?an index of physical condition?of killed elk was lower during a severe winter than during a mild winter. More calves were killed during the mild winter, and more male than female elk were killed during the severe winter [197]. Conversely, along the North Fork of the Flathead Valley, annual elk survival rates were not correlated with the number of days/winter with >12 inches (30 cm) of snow [159].
 
Predators may indirectly affect elk survival by modifying elk behavior, which can affect their physical condition. In the Upper Gallatin elk herd, elk were nutritionally stressed and relied on their own stored fat and muscle to meet energy requirements in winter. The presence of gray wolves increased the nutritional deficit, primarily through declines in intake, which was considered sufficient to reduce overwinter survival and reproduction [50].

Malnutrition and weather: According to a review, nutrition can affect productivity of elk by influencing the timing of estrus and birth date, probability of conception, fetal growth and survival, birth weight, resistance to disease and parasites, juvenile growth and survival, age at first reproduction, and adult survival [58]. Deep snow in winter can reduce elk nutrition by reducing access to food. Because of their small body size and low fat reserves, malnourished calves may have high winter mortality. Because they have lower fat reserves in fall due to rutting activities, adult males may have higher winter mortality rates due to malnutrition than adult females. Although severe winters may cause substantial elk mortality, winters with high snow accumulation and consequent delayed plant growth in spring may provide a higher quality diet for elk for a longer period in late summer and fall than years with average phenological development [221,230].
Calves of the year may have high mortality during severe winter weather due to their growth requirements and lack of fat reserves (see Calf survival). In the northern Yellowstone elk herd, calves born following mild winters were heavier than calves born following average or severe winters (P=0.029), and birth weight was positively correlated with annual survival (P=0.006) [267]. The spring following the 1988 Yellowstone fires, calf weights were reduced 17% relative to previous years, and calf mortality during the first 6 weeks of life was twice that of previous years [268].
Calf survival: Calf survival is variable among years and populations. According to a review, winter cow:calf ratios, which reflect changes in calf production and survival, range from <10 calves:100 cows to >70 calves:100 cows [221]. Because elk calves depend on energy stored in fat and muscle during summer and fall to survive winter, birth weight, birth date, gender, and body condition of a calf influence its survival. These variables are influenced by a variety of factors, including the age of the calf's mother and her nutritional condition, the age of the calf's father, population density, weather, predation, or a combination of these factors [58,221,230].

Summer survival of elk calves is positively related to their weight at birth [58,221,267,301]. In captivity, calves that were small (<25.1 pounds (11.4 kg)) at birth had a lower probability of surviving 4 weeks (<50% survival) than larger calves (>35.3 pounds (16.0 kg)) (>90% survival) [301]. In Yellowstone National Park, summer calf survival was positively correlated with birth weight (P=0.001). Predation on calves in summer was the greatest source of mortality (44% of all mortalities) and predated calves weighed less at birth than those that survived, possibly because small calves may be slower and easier for predators to catch than large calves [267]. Neonatal mortality resulting from predation was greater on early-born calves than late-born calves of the Jackson elk herd (P=0.055). Predators may have hunted calves more actively early in the parturition period either because other protein sources were less abundant, or because the proportion of very young and thus very vulnerable calves, relative to all calves, was higher [277].

Late-born calves often have high mortality in winter. In Yellowstone National Park, malnutrition was the leading cause of winter calf mortality, and winter mortality of late-born calves was higher than that of early-born calves [267]. Late-born calves may enter winter smaller than early-born calves, and small calves may have greater rates of decline in body condition in winter due to large surface-to-volume ratios that may predispose them to larger energy losses than large calves. Small calves also have more difficulty traveling and foraging in deep snow than large calves because of their relatively lower chest height and smaller hoof-surface area (see Home range) [230]. Thorne and others [301] reported that small elk calves grew more slowly than calves of normal birth weight on an absolute basis (pounds/day). They grew equivalently on an incremental basis (%/day), so weight differences at birth are likely to increase as calves grow. This may result in lifelong disadvantages.

Male calves may have higher mortality than female calves. In the Jackson elk herd, neonatal survival (birth to July 15) was higher among females (90%) than males (74%), and annual calf survival was higher among females (66%) than males (50%). The researchers suggested that male calves may be more active than females and thus fall prey to predators more often [277].

Calves of yearling cows, older cows, and cows in poor body condition during pregnancy experience substantially higher mortality than do calves of healthy, prime cows. Prime cows produce the heaviest, earliest born calves, which, in turn, have comparatively high survival rates [230], even though they may be subject to higher neonatal predation [277]. Calf mortality in Banff National Park between 3 months after conception and 6 months after parturition was 38% for yearling cows, 27% for 2- to 13-year-old cows, and 44% in ≥14-year-old cows (Flook 1970b cited in [230]). Calf survival may also be reduced when yearling bulls are the primary breeders because of late conception dates resulting from a delayed or lengthened rutting season [221,230].

Recruitment and calf survival may depend on population density and relative forage availability. Over 23 years on the northern Yellowstone winter range, when the elk population numbered about 5,000 individuals, summer calf recruitment rate was 56 calves/100 cows. When the population increased to 15,000 individuals, summer calf recruitment was about 30 calves/100 cows. Winter calf mortality was <1% when the population was at 5,000 individuals but increased to over 50% when the population was at 15,000 individuals. The authors suggested that food became limiting at high population densities [62]. In Grand Teton National Park, calf:cow ratios averaged 45:100 when the population of cows, calves, and yearling males was 500 individuals. The calf:cow ratio declined to approximately 25:100 when the population was 1,300 individuals (Boyce 1989 cited in [221]). In Yellowstone National Park, winter calf survival was negatively correlated with population size during 4 winters (P=0.0002) [267].
 
Nutrition: Nutritive value of elk forage varies among different types of forage, which provide different levels of critical nutrients at different times of year. Protein in herbaceous plants is typically less than or equal to that in shrubs during the growing season, but it decreases more rapidly and typically reaches concentrations below shrubs by the end of the growing season. Digestible energy tends to be greater in herbaceous plants than shrubs across all stages of growth. Beginning in fall, both protein and digestible energy of all forage on elk winter ranges decreases rapidly with the cessation of growth and senescence. Herbaceous plant quality continues to decline throughout winter, whereas shrubs typically retain higher quality [25,57].

Elk appear to select mixed diets to meet nutritional requirements [25]. Near Estes Park, Colorado, elk maintained a relatively stable winter diet quality over time and space, despite year-to-year variation in forage quality, by shifting between forage classes (graminoids and browse) during winter [121]. Elk also tend to select habitats that offer the most nutritious foods. In the Burwash-French River area of Ontario, reintroduced elk always selected high-quality plants (based on dry matter digestibility) irrespective of the quality of the surrounding habitat, whereas low-quality plants were only included in the diet when better alternatives were rare. Elk broadened their diet in low-quality habitats containing fewer high-quality plants and narrowed their diet in high-quality habitats containing abundant high-quality plants [110]. For these reasons, researchers suggested that managers maintain plant communities with a diversity of forbs, grasses, and browse to provide for elk nutritional needs [25,122].

According to a review, forage conditions on winter rangelands are often considered most limiting to elk populations, whereas forage on spring and summer range is generally assumed to be adequate for most elk populations [275]. However, Lyon and Christensen [184] stated that the significance of summer range as a factor in preparing elk for overwinter survival was frequently underestimated and that high-quality forage during summer is essential to overwinter survival of most herds. This is supported by a study in which cow elk from high- and low-density populations were given the same winter diet. Elk from the high-density population, which had been on summer range with poorer nutrition availability, had poorer body condition and lower reproduction than elk in the low-density population. The authors concluded that summer range quality determines accumulation of energy stores in elk, while winter range quality and length of winter determine depletion of energy stores. Thus, animals that are nutritionally stressed during summer are probably more affected by winter forage conditions than animals with good nutrition during summer [290].

Successional changes in elk forage: The quantity and nutritional quality of preferred forage species may fluctuate due to disturbance history and the stage of forest succession. Quantity and nutritional quality of elk forage species may increase or decrease after fire, logging, and other disturbances and change as forests mature. Ultimately, successional dynamics are unique for each forage species.

Lick sites: Mineral licks used by elk provide minerals (e.g., sodium, magnesium, and sulfur) and buffering compounds (carbonates and clays) important to elk nutrition and digestion [15]. Consumption of lick water and soils may improve rumen function and nutrient absorption during transition from low-quality, high-fiber winter diets to high-quality spring forage, or from high-quality spring forage to summer forage with higher concentrations of plant defense compounds; improve palatability and digestibility of forage by absorbing tannins and toxins; replace mineral reserves depleted during winter; and supplement elemental intake during molt, antler growth, and nutritional stress associated with pregnancy and lactation [16]. In the North Fork of the Clearwater River drainage, northern Idaho, mineral concentrations of 7 elk forages generally met estimated requirements for elk during May to November, with the exception of sodium [3]. In northeastern Nevada, sodium levels in 12 elk forages on summer range never exceeded about 10% of estimated requirements [25]. These studies suggested the importance of alternate sodium sources such as licks in elk diets [3].

Peak lick use occurs in spring after vegetation green-up and in early summer during calving (e.g., [16,73,357]). In northern British Columbia, high use of wet mineral licks in valley bottoms by male and female elk in late May followed vegetation greening at low elevations. Average attendance at licks by female elk was highest in late June coincident with high lactation demands [16]. Elk in Idaho used natural and manmade salt licks extensively in late April after they had been feeding on succulent forage for 2 to 3 weeks. Peak lick use occurred from late May to early June just prior to and during peak calving, which occurred the first week of June [73].

Human disturbance: Elk are sensitive to human disturbance, although they can be conditioned to the presence of humans such as in national parks [221]. In general, elk avoid roads with human activity and avoid disturbances created by active logging operations [275].

Repeated human disturbance may reduce elk reproduction and calf survival. In an experimental study in central Colorado, repeated human displacement of female elk for 3 to 4 weeks during calving reduced calf:cow ratios on alpine summer ranges. Average calf production was 0.225 calves per cow lower for disturbed elk than for undisturbed elk [224]. A subsequent study showed that elk productivity rebounded following release from disturbance and full recovery occurred by the second year after disturbance ceased [263].

Roads: Elk avoid areas near roads open to motorized vehicles across a variety of seasons, landscape conditions, and geographic regions. Elk generally avoid habitat adjacent to roads, particularly during calving and hunting seasons and during the rut. In the Oregon Coast Range, elk avoided areas within 820 feet (250 m) of roads with human activity year-round, but the greatest degree of avoidance occurred during calving and the rut [348].

Elk avoidance of roads may be stronger during the hunting season [132,344], but in areas where elk are hunted, elk may be distributed away from roads even during the nonhunting season (Rowland and others 2000 cited in [221]). In the Lochsa River area of Idaho, elk winter counts decreased as the percent of summer range logged increased. Apparently logging and associated road building increased elk vulnerability to hunting mortality. The disturbance also caused elk to shift to a winter range where disturbance was less [169]. In the southern Oregon Coast Range, Cole and others [51] found that restricting vehicle access increased elk survival due to reduced poaching (P=0.03) and reduced their movements due to reduced disturbance (P<0.0001). See Wisdom and Cook [344] and Leege [165] for reviews of road effects on elk hunting success.

The width of the area adjacent to roads avoided by elk has been reported as 0.25 to 1.8 miles (0.4-2.9 km), depending on the amount and kind of traffic, quality of the road, and density of cover adjacent to the road [184]. Roads in grasslands and openings are most avoided. In northern Idaho, elk preferred unroaded shrub fields despite greater abundance of forage in roaded clearcuts [172]. In the southern Oregon Coast Range, elk increased use of open, foraging habitats such as grass-forb and shrub communities, after vehicle access was reduced, but they used areas close to roads less than expected regardless of vehicle access [52]. Reintroduced elk on Chequamegon National Forest, Wisconsin, avoided areas near roads when establishing a home range but selected areas near roads within the established home range. At the broad scale, roads may have been avoided because they presented a mortality risk due to cars and hunters. At a smaller scale, roads may have been selected within home ranges because they provided both openings and edges in the predominantly forested landscape (see Preferred habitat) [8].

Elk may use areas near roads as refuge from nonhuman predators. In Banff National Park, in high-predation risk sites with low human use, valley bottom trails were frequented by gray wolves and avoided by elk. The opposite effect occurred in low-predation risk areas, such as near highways, where elk were attracted to valley-bottom travel routes heavily used by humans but avoided by gray wolves [335].
 
Succession: Elk use habitats in all stages of succession and show considerable plasticity in their response to changes in habitat (see Successional status of elk habitats). In areas with continuous forest cover, lack of early-successional habitats may limit elk densities [100]. Elk populations declined in much of the Rocky Mountain region during the 20th century due to fire exclusion [260,288]. In southwestern Manitoba, small elk populations in Spruce Woods Provincial Park were attributed in part to fire exclusion that allowed forests to become closed [123]. Elk herds expanded in north-central Idaho after large wildfires during 1910, 1919, and 1934, when burned forests succeeded to shrub fields with more abundant browse. As forests regenerated, elk numbers decreased because the later stages of succession, such as grand fir and western redcedar forests, were less desirable to elk, especially on winter range [166,333]. However, Lehmkuhl and others [174] concluded that population declines in the Lochsa River elk population in north-central Idaho were driven more by hunting and severe winter weather than by broad habitat changes during postfire succession.

Climate patterns and climate change: Because elk survival may be influenced by deep snow accumulations (see Malnutrition and weather), it is potentially affected by large-scale climatic fluctuations, which influence local temperature and precipitation patterns. In the Rocky Mountains, positive North Pacific Oscillation (NPO) index values are related to cooler winter temperatures, increased snowfall, and increased frequency of winter storms. Researchers examined the influences of the NPO on elk population dynamics in Banff National Park during 15 years for 3 elk populations exposed to different levels of predation by gray wolves. High NPO, which reflected increased winter severity, was related to reduced elk population growth rate, and the reduction was greater in areas with gray wolf predation [112]. At Tomales Point at Point Reyes National Seashore, California, elk population growth rate was positively associated with precipitation, likely due to increased plant productivity. The researchers concluded that elk populations may increase during strong El Ni?o Southern Oscillation years, when precipitation is high in California, with declining growth rates during dry inter-El Ni?o periods [126]. In Montana, dispersing elk expanded their movements outside of traditional habitats during wet years but under drier conditions rejoined source populations [323], suggesting that during inter-El Ni?o periods, when precipitation is high in Montana, elk may be more likely to disperse into new habitats and expand their ranges.

Because weather affects elk population dynamics, global climate change may potentially affect elk populations. Estimated effects of climate change on elk will depend on the direction and scope of changes that occur. Because local losses of elk are not predicted to be compensated by elk range expansion into new geographic locations, climate change models comparing current and predicted geographical distributions under doubled carbon dioxide levels predicted that elk's geographic distribution will shrink [141]. However, based on global and regional climate change models predicting reduced snow accumulation locally in Montana, elk populations were predicted to increase in this area [66,248]. See Millspaugh and others [202] and Wallace and others [330] for reviews of potential responses of fire regimes, vegetation, and elk to climate change in the Greater Yellowstone Area.

Elk forage quality may differ between logged and unlogged forests. In western Washington and Vancouver Island, nutrient content of trailing blackberry, an important elk forage species, dropped immediately after logging but recovered by postlogging year 9. Thereafter, crude protein content dropped steadily through postlogging year 25. Crude fiber content was high in mature forest, higher immediately after logging, and then favorably low through postlogging year 25 [297]. A 2002 review concluded that relationships between elk forage nutritive value and forest cover likely vary across regions and plant communities occupied by elk and depend in part on whether plants contain tannins [58]. In very wet, coastal regions in western North America, high solar radiation in clearcuts apparently increased elk forage nutritional value but also increased concentrations of tannins, which inhibit digestibility of forage [58]. For example, on the Olympic Peninsula, elk used old-growth and clearcut Sitka spruce-western hemlock forests where salmonberry, red huckleberry (Vaccinium parvifolium), vine maple (Acer circinatum), and western swordfern (Polystichum munitum) together comprised 18% of the elk summer diet, 7% of the fall diet, 32% of the winter diet, and 45% of the spring diet. These species were present in both old-growth (>200 years old) forests and in clearcuts (5-15 years old). However, these species generally had a greater proportion of leaves, were more succulent, had higher percent crude protein, and less tannin in old-growth forests than in clearcuts [107], suggesting that less understory forage biomass in old-growth forests compared to clearcuts may be offset by the higher digestibility of forage in old-growth forests [221].
Livestock grazing: Influences of livestock grazing on elk can be detrimental, neutral, or beneficial [326]. Grazing, as well as the physical presence of cattle (Bos primigenius), domestic sheep (Ovis aries), and other livestock, can have negative impacts on elk not only by reducing forage, but by causing behavioral changes and altering activity budgets that make foraging less productive [46]. Alternatively, removal of forage by livestock may improve forage quality for elk through effects on plant growth patterns, by enhancing regrowth, and by changing ratios of live to dead plant material [58].

Some studies reported that elk avoided areas grazed by livestock [46,186], whereas others studies reported that elk avoided areas only while livestock were physically present [165,184,186,274,275], and others indicated few behavioral changes in elk as a result of livestock grazing [46,48]. In Utah, elk preferred ungrazed areas during rest-rotation grazing (Clegg 1994 cited in [46]). Elk used higher elevations and steeper slopes due to cattle grazing in east-central Idaho [356]. At the Starkey Experimental Forest and Range, elk used low elevations when cattle were absent but moved to high elevations when cattle were present [291]. Because elk and livestock diets overlap, removal of forage by livestock increases the potential for competition and may result in reduced nutrient intake by elk [46,58,221]. Elk and livestock diet overlap increases when forage becomes less available [46], therefore the potential for competition appears highest on winter and transitional ranges that include low-elevation bottomlands and adjacent foothills, where forage and habitat use are most limited. Competition for forage during late summer and fall may also be high following periods of prolonged seasonal drought [221]. According to a review, elk appear to avoid areas where cattle are present if other options exist, but where no other options exist, elk will tolerate some cattle presence [48]. Elk choice of grazing areas in central Arizona was more dependent on tree growth patterns and terrain features than on the presence or absence of cattle grazing in the area (Halstead and others 2002 cited in [46]).

Livestock grazing of bunchgrasses can reduce accumulation of old, standing dead plant material, thereby increasing the availability of young, nutritious growth, which may increase the quality of elk diets [58,143]. On Oregon's coast range, summer grazing by domestic sheep did not reduce graminoid quantity and improved crude protein content and dry matter digestibility of graminoids the following October by stimulating regrowth of plants. The following spring, forage quality was similar, but forage quantity increased by 70%, apparently due to earlier green-up in grazed than ungrazed areas [237]. Anderson and Scherzinger [9] reported a 260% increase in elk numbers following cattle grazing in northeastern Oregon. In Montana, elk use of winter rangelands increased after livestock grazing the previous summer [143]. According to reviews, livestock grazing effects on elk habitats likely depend on the magnitude of forage quality improvements and forage quantity reductions; whether elk populations are limited by forage quality or forage quantity; the extent of overlap of elk and livestock diets; as well as season, weather, and ecological setting [46,58].
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-30-14 AT 10:26PM (MST)[p]wolfhunter,

No, you're missing the point.

Idaho has control of wolves, they're responsible for management.

If they dont want to be part of the solution to control wolves, thats their problem.

Those that whine the most, typically do the least...

Since you're so concerned about the good folks in Salmon...I suggest you drag your sorry arse off the couch and get down there and lend a hand.

Put your money where your mouth is...tuffie.
 
Slayer - That was an interesting read.

What I took away is many things influence elk populations, most of which we can have very little influence. Let fires burn, limit the amount of cattle grazing and put out a bunch of salt licks in the spring and refresh them in the early summer.

"Predators: Primary elk predators include gray wolves, coyotes (Canis latrans), American black bears (Ursus americanus), grizzly bears (Ursus arctos horribilis), and mountain lions (Puma concolor) <230,358>. Predators are a particularly important source of calf mortality in summer <221,344>. According to a 2006 review, annual elk calf mortality from Washington, Wyoming, and Idaho ranged from 44% to 98%, and highest annual mortality was caused by bears (Ursus spp.), mountain lions, and coyotes <358>. In the northern Yellowstone elk herd, predation was the greatest source of calf mortality (44%) during 4 years. All but one instance of predation occurred during summer. Winter malnutrition (23%) was the second leading cause of elk calf mortality <267>."

"Predators may indirectly affect elk survival by modifying elk behavior, which can affect their physical condition. In the Upper Gallatin elk herd, elk were nutritionally stressed and relied on their own stored fat and muscle to meet energy requirements in winter. The presence of gray wolves increased the nutritional deficit, primarily through declines in intake, which was considered sufficient to reduce overwinter survival and reproduction <50>."

The one thing we can have a lot of control over is wolves.
 
>The one thing we can have
>a lot of control over
>is wolves.

It would be nice if trapping, dogs, and bait was legal for all predators in every state. Hopefully Oregon will get the use of dogs back for cougars in the future.

There are still a lot of issues that the states can control to help our game. ATV's, human disturbance in wintering habitat, wildlife over/underpasses, habitat improvement projects, tag numbers, season length, limit technology in poor management objective units, turn in party hunters filling other peoples tags, turn in ALL poachers, close more unpaved roads, quick tag and/or season adjustments in areas that had recent severe winter, disease outbreaks, drought, high predation rate until game population rebounds, etc....
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-14 AT 07:47AM (MST)[p]Buzz,

I am one of those guys who put's in above average time in the mountains. When I formulate an argument I walk the talk. I do not rely on some self proclaimed expert or a bar/coffee shop. I have hunted Salmon and the Frank many times for sheep, wolves, deer and elk. My biggest wolf is from Idaho. I have hunted wolves in the same area that Gus has been hunting. I will be going back soon!!!

The fundamental reason I disagree with you is because of how much time I have spent tracking down wolves. We are not going to be able to properly manage wolves with the current management plans. Trapping is to expensive for the average guy to be successful. Try getting the mandatory trapping class requirement in Idaho. The IFG wants people to drive to Coeur d'Alene to accomplish this.

You should go wolf hunting Buzz... I bet you would be eating a piece of humble pie. Go in March, you might find a few more kills than you expect. Even if you would not admit it publicly I bet you would admit it to yourself. You don't understand wolves as well as you think!!!

One thing you can count on I will be hunting wolves until the day I die.
 
...Slayer,

Much good and verifiable biological information.

We are fortunate to have an old Montana boy whom is our NM elk biologist and he is truly a fine example of a true biologist whom has his head screwed on straight. Before he left Montana he and another researcher did a comprehensive study on elk reproductive rates and physiological effects wolves were having on them. I will try to find that study for you.

Buzz,

Being new to this site I haven't figured everybody out yet and was wondering from your earlier post with your seemingly "public" input in all of your meeting with the Game officials and in particular the Wyoming officials are you a public employee or are you just an individual whom is interested in wildlife management?

One thing I am deducing is your hunters=slobs rhetoric, and it seems to be a burr under your saddle blanket.
 
Wolfhunter said, "The fundamental reason I disagree with you is because of how much time I have spent tracking down wolves. We are not going to be able to properly manage wolves with the current management plans. Trapping is to expensive for the average guy to be successful. Try getting the mandatory trapping class requirement in Idaho. The IFG wants people to drive to Coeur d'Alene to accomplish this

First off, hunting and trapping is working. Check out the number of wolves killed in MT, ID, and WY...also pay attention to the current wolf populations. They're declining in all 3 states.

The rest...just more excuses for those that cant pry themselves from the couch. Apparently the wolf issue just isnt that important to most of the, do-nothing but whine, gang...

I'd also pay attention to the things that were posted by blacktailslyr. Work on those issues...wolves become a much less significant issue to deer and elk herds...FACT.

stoney,

I'm actively engaged in wildlife/hunting/habitat issues primarily as just an average guy from Montana who's lived in Wyoming for the last 14 years.

As to your hunters=slobs...only if the shoe fits. No question hunters, have done all the heavy lifting to establish conservation, hunting, and abundant wildlife. No doubt about it, and they deserve full recognition and congratulations for those efforts. In particular the hunter of average means.

However, there is also a dark "fringe"...that are willing to sell out the North American Model for a quick buck (could be a pun there). An even darker "fringe" that condone poaching (wolfhunter as a prime example, who compares poachers to patriots). I've no use for people like that, they need to be banished from anything to do with wildlife and hunting. They are slobs, and I'll be the first to call them what they are, to their face.

I also have no use for laws like New Mexico has, where the outfitting industry is being subsidized like welfare bums via "outfitter sponsored" tags. I'm also against things like transferable landowner tags...again, just another welfare program for the landowners and outfitters. All of these are threats to the NAM.

I feel the same way about Wyomings Wilderness guide law (outfitter welfare), Alaskas guide requirement for sheep, griz, and goat (outfitter welfare).

Thats not to be confused with a true free market for outfitters, free of the government handouts described above. There is room for outfitters, they provide a service, but they should not be subsidized via the States Wildlife.

I'm concerned with keeping public wildlife, all public wildlife, accessible to the hunter/citizens of average means...100% committed to it. Non-negotiable on that.
 
Buzz,
>
>I also have no use for
>laws like New Mexico has,
>where the outfitting industry is
>being subsidized like welfare bums
>via "outfitter sponsored" tags. I'm
>also against things like transferable
>landowner tags...again, just another welfare
>program for the landowners and
>outfitters. All of these are
>threats to the NAM.
>
>I feel the same way about
>Wyomings Wilderness guide law (outfitter
>welfare), Alaskas guide requirement for
>sheep, griz, and goat (outfitter
>welfare).
>
>Thats not to be confused with
>a true free market for
>outfitters, free of the government
>handouts described above. There is
>room for outfitters, they provide
>a service, but they should
>not be subsidized via the
>States Wildlife.
>
>I'm concerned with keeping public wildlife,
>all public wildlife, accessible to
>the hunter/citizens of average means...100%
>committed to it. Non-negotiable on
>that.

You were tracking pretty good until your last four paragraphs. I would like to try and correct or add to some of your assumptions.

#1. The NAM is great, fine and good, needed and pretty much the law of the land. The wildlife belong to the citizens of the individual states.

#2.Much of the public's wildlife rely on or spend much of their time on private land. They also spend time on public lands, i.e. state, US Forest Service and BLM. Those lands make up a huge amount of habitat and hunting opportunity for all citizens and yet the the wildlife belong to the citizens of the individual states, therefore the individual states can regulate and control the hunting opportunity and the majority of opportunity for their own residents. The non-residents only get what the individual states will allow them whether it is on private, state or Federal lands.

#3. New Mexico has a very fair system of compensating landowners whom provide much of the critical habitat needed for our wildlife. To compensate legally they don't provide wildlife damage compensation but have found a way to help the landowners whom have suffered huge losses to wildlife damage. Since the landowner authorization system has come into being now we have a whole different psychology in place and the landowners now welcome and help promote larger numbers of wildlife and is has become a win win situation for both the wildlife and the hunters. This is particularly true with elk numbers. Antelope live primarily live on private and checkerboarded lands and is somewhat different.

#4.Every National Forest in the west have different management schemes for outfitters. Most of the northern tier outfitters have exclusive operating areas. In NM and AZ we do not. It is wide open pretty much and we have outfitters running over the top of each other and is generally organized chaos. We have many out of state outfitters in NM coming here for our big elk especially in the famous Gila region. In AZ they have no outfitter law or regulation over outfitters other than anybody can get a guide license. There are somewhere in the neighborhood of 75 outfitters permitted on the Gila National Forest.

#5. With much of our timber industry gone and much of our public lands livestock grazing severely cut the county revenues have seen a dramatic decline. The outfitting industry has come to the fore and now bring in much needed revenues to the county. This is possible from the huge explosion of elk into southern NM and eastern AZ. The hunting and outfitting industry here in Catron County NM and many of the rural counties in both states, is a huge part of making our rural economies even half way vibrant.

#6. Outfitters being subsidized is a big reach, but a very popular opinion and just that, an opinion It is supported by much of the resident hunting public. The NMCOG works hard to protect our industry and we have fought the fight on several occasions in Santa Fe at the Roundhouse. Legislators look very hard at being fair and one thing they look very, very hard at is the health of the economic health of the local and rural economies. Catron County is among the lowest per capita incomes anywhere with 3600 residents and better than 25% living below the poverty level.

#6. While I agree to a big extent on Wyoming's law I think Alaska's are put in place for a very good reason.

#7. I too agree wholeheartedly that wildlife should be accessible to the hunter/citizen of average means.

#8. I would suggest that the resident hunters are subsidized by private landowners and the Federal land's owners who own most of the habitat to keep the wildlife herds healthy, thus making more abundant wildlife for all to hunt.

#9. I'm not saying that resident hunters should not have what is fair and right, but to make the NAM really work fair for everyone, it should include everyone's rights.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-31-14 AT 07:42PM (MST)[p]Buzz,

Funny how protecting your own back yard is considered poaching. Everyone but the wolf hippies wants fewer wolves in areas like the Frank, even the IFG. So someone willing to take care of the over population is an outlaw poacher... But if your sanctioned by a government agency your doing your job. Kind of Hippocratic Buzz!!! I think THE biggest threat to the NAM is bloated top heavy state and federal agencies who are sucking the life out of our wildlife to fill their budgets. You would know a lot about that Buzz you guys at the Forest Service cannot even sell your own timber for a profit... Buzz YOUR VERY EXISTENCE AND ENTIRE CAREER IS A HUGE SUBSIDY...YOUR A WELFARE CASE BY DEFINITION...(FACT)
 
Here is a study on YNP Elk pre & post wolf introduction. Again, reference the elk habitat info I posted above to see why climate change(drought or severe winter) can hurt our game populations. Now add in a new predator(wolves) with cougars, bears, coyotes and you will see a decline of elk like in YNP. It is a combo of issues causing the YNP elk to decline.

Influence of Harvest, Climate, and Wolf Predation on YNP Elk, 1961-2004

The influence of predation on prey population dynamics is varied and complex. Meta-analysis of controlled experiments suggests that predation sometimes, but not always, results in a trophic cascade (Schmitz et al. 2000). Nonexperimental introductions of carnivores appear to be associated with prey declines in about half the cases (Ebenhard 1988). The influence of predation is also suggested by the tendency for prey populations to exist at lower densities when exposed to predator communities with increased species richness (Peterson 2001, Mech and Peterson 2002). However, the widespread tendency for carnivore and prey populations to be positive correlated (over time and across space, Fuller and Sievert 2001), may indicate that predator equilibria are importantly determined by prey equilibria, rather than the reverse.

Elk have been counted by aerial survey during most years between 1961 and 2004 (Table 1). The methods are described and data presented in Taper and Gogan (2002) and in Lemke et al. (1998). Data since 1995 were obtained from annual reports of the elk count and elk harvest (Montana Fish Wildlife and Parks 2004). Each year elk are counted in December or early January. Since 1976, this elk population has been harvested during four separate annual hunts that take place just north of Yellowstone Park. Three hunts, known as general season hunts, focus on bulls and occur each autumn. The other hunt, known as the late season hunt, focuses on antlerless elk and occurs during January and February. We calculated a pre-harvest count (NJ) by adding, to the count, the number harvested prior to the count. We calculated two harvest statistics. One included the total number of elk harvested each season (THt). The other excluded elk killed during the fall hunt, which may have less impact on population dynamics because it removes a small portion of the population (2.8% on average) and consists primarily of bulls. This harvest primarily represents the elk harvest during the late hunt, which occurs during February and March. We denote this statistic as LHt. In each case, we calculated harvest rate (THt and LHJ) as the number of elk harvested divided by Nt. From successive annual values of Nt, we estimated annual population growth rate for year t as rt =ln(Nt+ 1) -ln(Nt).

We used weather data collected from the Mammoth weather station, which is located on the Northern Range. Specifically, we used mean daily maximum temperature during summer (June-August), mean daily minimum temperature during winter (January-February), cumulative snowfall (October-April, St), annual precipitation (November-October, Pt), and summer precipitation (July) (Table 1). We considered summer precipitation separately because elk may be especially limited by the nutritive quality of summer forage (Merrill and Boyce 1991, Cook et al. 2004). Importantly, summer precipita-tion and annual precipitation are not well correlated (R =0.15, p =0.35). We also used an index of snow water equivalent (i.e. water content of the snow) measured four times during each winter (1 Jan, 1 Feb, 1 Mar and 1 April). Snow water equivalent may indicate winter severity or drought stress. These data were measured in the Northern Range near Lupine Creek and were obtained from Farnes (1996) and P. Farnes and C. Hayden (pers. comm.).

Harvest rate (excluding the fall harvest) appears as a predictor variable in each model (Table 3). The contribution of harvest rate to explaining the variation in elk growth rate can be estimated by multiplying the standardized regression coefficient for harvest times that correlation coefficient between LHt and rt (Schumacker and Lomax 1996). We calculated this statistic for each of the four best models, and calculated an average contribution of LHt, weighted by each model's AICc weight. According to this calculation, harvest rate accounts for 47% of the observed annual variation in elk population growth rate for the period 1961-1995.

The 95% confidence interval for aH is [-2.1, -0.32], the 80% confidence interval for XH is [-2.0, -0.72], and the 50% confidence interval for OCH is [-1.8, -1.2]. The apparent super-additivity of the harvest may be ex- plained by the fact that most elk (70%) taken in the harvest were pregnant (Lemke 2003).

We projected growth rates and abundances from 1995- 2004 on the basis of the best performing models in Table 3. These predictions were calculated as:
rt=f(Nt, Ht. Cd)fort= 1995 (la) rt = f(Nt, Ht. Ct) for t > 1995 (lb)
where f( represents one of the models in Table 3, Ct represents a set of climate variables corresponding to one of the models in Table 3, and &t =exp(ln(N* 1)+rt), where N.1 =17290 for t-1 =1995 (Table 1) or N = Nt_ 1 for t -I> 1995. Projected values of elk abundance tend to decline from 1995 to 2004 for each of the models that performed reasonably well (Fig. 3).

For additional context, it is useful to recognize that: 1) northern Yellowstone elk are distinctive because they are preyed upon by more predator species than most other elk populations (i.e. humans, wolves, coyotes, cougars, black bears, and grizzly bears; Smith et al. 2003); and 2) since the mid-1980s the abundance of cougars and grizzly bears has also increased (Murphy 1998, Schwartz and Haroldson 2003).

Our analysis suggests that human harvest may have been super-additive. That is, for every one percent increase in harvest rate the population growth rate declines by more than one percent (i.e. 1.55 with 80% confidence intervals of [-2.0%, -0.7%]). This could reflect both direct and indirect effects of harvest. Alternatively, harvest rates could be correlated with some factor that also tends to reduce population growth rate. Perhaps, for example, harvest and winter severity each reduce population growth rate, and harvest rates tends to be greater in more severe winters. This is plausible because elk mobility is more restricted during sever winters and more easily found by hunters. This possibility is further supported by the positive correlation between cumulative annual snowfall and the late harvest rate (LHt; R =0.48, p =0.01). This correlation does not however imply that the effect of harvest is misconstrued for what is really the effect of cumulative annual snow. This is so because the best performing model (Table 3) with elk density, snow, precipitation, and harvest performs much better compared to the model with only elk density, snow, and precipitation (i.e. R2= 0.08, AAICc = 17). Models with an interaction term for harvest and snow did not outperform models without this interaction term. More generally, it is not surprising that human harvest would be more additive than wolf predation, because whereas wolves are highly selective for elk in vulnerable age classes, human hunters show no such selection and are more likely to kill prime-aged elk (Wright 2003).

Great value seems to be placed on considering the northern Yellowstone elk herd to be naturally regulated (Coughenhour and Singer 1996, Singer et al. 1998, Huff and Varley 1999, National Research Council 2002, Soule et al. 2003). However, unless human harvest is considered a natural process, it seems unreasonable to consider the northern Yellowstone elk herd naturally regulated, given that about half of the variation in annual growth rate is attributable to annual variation in harvest rate. If the management goal of the late hunt is to reduce elk abundance for the purpose of increasing the standing biomass of plant species consumed by elk (Lemke 2003), then this analysis indicates that the harvest has been effective in its proximate goal of reducing the abundance of northern Yellowstone elk.

Another independent observation highlights the apparent role of drought in the recent elk decline (1995-2004). Although ungulate starvation is common near the end of severe winters (i.e. long periods of deep snow which limit mobility and access to forage, e.g. 1996-97), elk starvation is not typically associated with mild winters. Nevertheless, elk starvation was documented in late winter 2003-04, which was mild but preceded by several years of low annual precipitation. Elk may have had elevated risk of starvation even during the mild winter of 2003-04 because forage conditions during the previous summer were poor due to low annual precipitation (Cook et al. 2004). Previous analyses have indicated that precipitation has been an important predictor of elk population growth rate (Coughenhour and Singer 1996, Taper and Gogan 2002, Wang et al. 2002).

That predation may have been substantially compensatory or numerically unimportant, does not indicate that wolf predation on elk will be compensatory in the future. Specifically, wolf predation might be more additive for higher rates of predation and (or) under climate conditions that are more favorable to elk. Experimental studies have shown that the extent to which predation or harvest is additive with other sources of mortality depends on time-varying circumstances, such as abundance of food (Floyd 1995, Reid et al. 1995, Oedekoven and Joern 2000, Tveraa et al. 2003). These considerations may indicate why the effects of predator introductions on prey populations seem so varied (Ebenhard 1988, Schmitz et al. 2000). Though human harvesting can be largely compensatory under a wide range of circumstances (Boyce et al. 1999), it is not always (Pederson et al. 2004, Williams et al. 2004, this study). Much more empirical and theoretical insight are required to adequately understand the extent to and circumstances under which harvest and predation are additive to other causes of mortality.

Generally, the influence of predation on prey may be assessed from a variety of perspectives. Common perspectives include assessing kill rate (Vucetich et al. 2002), cause-specific rates of mortality among various age classes of prey (Ballard et al. 2001), and prey abundance in relation to other relevant covariates, such as predator density (Arditi and Ginzburg 1989, Messier 1994). Kill rate assessment, for example, represents a highly mechanistic, but also a highly reductive, perspective. It is reductive in the sense that one assumes prey dynamics may be understood by re-assembling constituent predictors of temporal fluctuation in abundance that are studied separately. In this context, predation may be examined by estimating the functional and numerical responses and then relating them to population dynamics according to Lotka-Volterra theory. In contrast, the perspective taken here (i.e. time series analysis of prey abundance and relevant covariates) is more holistic, but also less mechanistic. This perspective is less mechanistic in the sense that many detailed mechanisms (e.g. functional and numerical responses) are subsumed. This perspective is more holistic in the sense used by philosophers of science (Rosenburg 2000, Lange 2004). That is, it focuses directly on the phenomena of interest; i.e. how factors like drought, harvest and predation affect abundance. This valuable perspective (i.e. that entailing time series analyses of abundance) is increasingly common (Jonzen et al. 2002, 2005, Vucetich and Peterson 2004). Because these and other perspectives each have merits and limitations, it is important to consider various perspectives with a pluralistic attitude. In a significant sense, the perspective is as important as the conclusion. In this case, one may be more impressed by the uncertainty of understanding elk dynamics than by the claim that one is well justified in believing that wolf predation does not explain the population decline. Regardless, the conclusion (whatever it may be) is as important as knowing what can and cannot be said from a legitimate perspective, which is in this case time series analysis of elk abundance.
 
>...Slayer,
>
>Much good and verifiable biological information.
>
>
>We are fortunate to have an
>old Montana boy whom is
>our NM elk biologist and
>he is truly a fine
>example of a true biologist
>whom has his head screwed
>on straight. Before he left
>Montana he and another researcher
>did a comprehensive study on
>elk reproductive rates and physiological
>effects wolves were having on
>them. I will try to
>find that study for you.

If it was on YNP elk I may now the study you are talking about. It would be great to read it if you happen to find it. Thanks
 
Slayer,

Here is a really in depth study done with data up to 2008 by MFWP written by Kenneth Hamlin and Julie Cunningham. Stewart Liley and S. Creel's work is mentioned. I am still looking for Stewart Liley's report but it comes up as no longer available. I have a copy of it somewhere.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...5AFSw1hnTJ8aLSOORTdEuBw&bvm=bv.60444564,d.cGU

Wolfhunter,

Very interesting revelation on Mr. Buzz!

Buzz,

You said and I quote,

"I'm actively engaged in wildlife/hunting/habitat issues primarily as just a average guy from Montana who's lived in Wyoming the last 14 years."

I'm sure you are interested in those issues and now I think I have an explanation why you are always at the various Game Dept. meetings on a very regular basis. You get paid to go there! Get out Buzz.

Your simplified approach to subsidies is really interesting and as the old Wolfhunter succinctly pointed out you are the one that is truly subsidized.

I would bet you are probably a card carrying member of the Wyoming Wildlife Federation. Many of the states's Wildlife Federation members think like you do and especially NM and Montana's chapters.

I will ask you again as I did up above, are you a government employee? If in fact you do work for the US Forest Service it explains a whole lot of what you have posted on this thread. Don't get me wrong, there are a lot of hard working, dedicated FS employees and I even have many I call friends.
 
Buzz,

As you know Wyoming Governor Dave Freudenthal in December of 2007 declared that Wyoming Wolf Plan was finally approved by the Feds. It was a big win for Wyoming then and still is now. It took him about three years and a hard struggle fighting the various Federal Agencies and litigious radical pro wolf groups. He being a lawyer beat them at their own game.

http://www.ifish.net/board/showthread.php?p=1786291

Even though a Democratic Governor he was extremely conservative in many ways and fought for states rights.

You on the other hand Buzz it would seem you must have a burr under your saddle blanket. I can only assume from being a Federal employee and not happy that Wyoming asserted their rights and set the Feds and the pro-wolfers back on their heels. It may be re-litigated but I don't really think so.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-14 AT 11:51AM (MST)[p]stoney,

You need to pay attention...and finding a first clue would be a good place to start.

In case you were wondering, there are 2 pending lawsuits over Wyomings dual classification...so your comment of "It may be re-litigated but I dont really think so"...is about as far off base as most all you're other "wolf facts". Its definately being "re-litigated"...

While I've met, and talked with Gov. Freudenthal...and will again here in a couple weeks, I dont think he made the best decision on this issue. Politically, he did the best he could...but from a practical standpoint he dropped the ball. While Gov. Freudenthal has done a lot of good for hunting, wildlife, and conservation...he's a good man, but, on this issue, IMO, he has put Wyoming at the mercy of the courts. I also dont often agree with mightyhunter on this board, but I do agree 100% with him, that nothing makes me more nervous than allowing courts to decide your case. If the current court case(s), dont go the right way, Wyoming could lose all rights to manage wolves...

WHY?

Because by endorsing the dual classification Wyoming left the door open for relisting and the Feds taking over control AGAIN. Just like they did when Wyoming had the brief window of wolf hunting in the predator zone. That was a big, critical mistake for Wyoming. It went to court, and the hunt was halted in the predator zone, about as quick as it started. Thats very damaging...and I can assure you, that court case will be cited in the 2 pending lawsuits.

My suggestion, and the smart move, would have been for the State of Wyoming to classify wolves as a big-game animal statewide. That would have ended all questions about whether or not Wyomings plan was acceptable...it would have been. Montana and Idaho's plans were both upheld in court...and Wyomings would have been as well.

Once Wyomings plan was acceptable, just run the hunt like you do now. Base quotas in what are now the trophy zones on best available populations estimates, to keep the minimum numbers required to keep them off the list. In what is now the predator zone, set a "season" with no quota, no closed hunting season. Thats what is commonly refered to as a win-win-win.

If Wyoming would have done that from the start, we wouldnt be at risk of losing state wolf management. But, because Wyoming chose to "show the Feds"...they are now at the mercy of the courts.

How will the courts decide??? WHO KNOWS. IMO, and IME, it is NOT worth the risk when there was an alternative that would have secured Wyomings State Rights to manage wolves via an accepted and endorsed plan.

If the courts decide for Wyoming...great. If they dont, the fertilizer is going to hit the ventilator...and Wyoming may not be managing wolves anymore.

I view things on a risk/reward catagory on a daily basis...and IMO, the risk with thr dual classification, is not worth any perceived "reward".

The dual classification had no upside...and we're now at risk of the many, many downsides its caused (the first being 2 pending lawsuits that will cost a lot of money), and potentially could cause (loss of State Management).

I wont apologize for not wanting to gamble with States Rights and MY PUBLIC WILDLIFE...
 
Stoney,

Where to start on that pile-o-chit post you just made.

I guess first off, I have NEVER been paid to attend a G&F meeting in my life...ever. How I wish all the hours I've spent writing letters, attending meetings, organizing hunters, lobbying, talking with G&F,etc. etc. etc. were things I could get paid for. The only compensation I get from those efforts is knowing that average hunters now have a voice...a louder voice than ever.

I would assume by your comments that I should "get out"...that you dont like average joe hunters commenting and making recommendations regarding THEIR PUBLIC WILDLIFE???

I find that rather odd, since average joes pay nearly all the freight for wildlife management. But, it would probably make sense when considering YOUR line of work. It must trouble the outfitting lobby, that the average hunters are tired of being subjected to ridiculous laws like "outfitter set aside licenses", Wilderness guide laws, transferable landowner tags, and the like.

The times have changed...and Montana Hunters, disliked their outfitter welfare tag system so much...they got it on the ballot and ended the OSL's (outfitter sponsored licenses).

I would strongly encourage New Mexico hunting organizations to do the same...and dont stop at the outfitter welfare tags, go for the transferable landowner tags as well. Let the majority decide how THEIR PUBLIC WILDLIFE should be managed and how access to permits should be handled. Its YOUR PUBLIC WILDLIFE, you PAY FOR IT...take your rightfulcontrol of it.

I reckon thats also the reason for your dislike of the MWF, NMWF, and WWF. They have a clear track record of not tolerating the commercialization and give-away welfare programs, but rather a history of supporting the average DIY hunters and the NAM, including equal access to wildlife.

Not a bad place to be. I find it almost as humorous, as I do ironic, that the various outfitter orgs. are pi$$ing and moaning about average guys wanting to take control of the wildlife thats rightfully theirs.

Nothing gets an outfitter lobbyist more riled than seeing other lobbyists, that represent the 99% of the average hunters, having a voice.

NEWS FLASH!!!! Get used to it...the average guys are paying attention, they're well connected, they understand the process, they're well informed, and they wont be steam-rolled by a profit driven outfitter agenda.

We're happy to share, but we're done giving away our wildlife resources to the highest bidder, and seeing profit margins taking priority over equitable and proper management.

Those days are OVER...and thats a fact. (see MT getting rid of OSL's as a prime example).
 
Buzz,

THE PUBLIC WILDLIFE, drinking my water, eating and mashing down my alfalfa fields, living on my US Forest Service lands and my BLM lands, living up in my wilderness areas.

You my man are getting the most benefit from my natural resources that keep "your" public wildlife alive.

Maybe since your public wildlife belong to the citizens of the individual states resident hunters should be allowed all the licenses on state lands and let the private landowners decide who can hunt their lands and leave the Federal lands open to all public hunters, resident and non resident alike. Most State Game & Fish Depts. get half of their revenues from non resident license sales thus subsidizing you the resident hunter. Of course this will never happen, but don't cast stones at other legitimate methods of leveling out the playing field.

I do agree on states rights and Gov. Freudenthal was like a fighting rooster with long gaffes when it came to those issues.

I may be wrong and maybe WY should have went the other way. Time will tell.
 
Buzz,

Great I'm glad you do all that you do on your own and not the Gov. dime.

By my "get out" statement that is cliche for, "are you kidding me". I didn't mean for you to literally "take a hike".

The state Wildlife Federation's are all tied to the NWF which is a very liberal green group. NMWF was at first all for the wolves then started back peddling. They are wrong on so many natural resource issues. You the average joe hunter jumps on their bandwagon because they have a lot of money and power behind them to brag that they are helping you the average joe hunter. You unknowingly and unwittingly help their cause of radical greening of the environment while most of their members nationwide aren't even hunters.

The majority of the average joe hunters do have a big say and are present at all of the Game & Fish Dept. hearing, meetings and Commission meeting. They also show up at the state legislatures and are heard. Like I said earlier our legislators look at state revenues and what the outfitting industry brings into the state and the services they provide and the huge tax revenues we bring in. You are the average joe hunter whom is subsidized by enjoying low license fees and the majority of the licenses and opportunities.

Every state is different but I do know that NM residents have more hunting opportunity at more species with ample opportunity to get to hunt every year, year in and year out, and they still complain that they are getting shorted. In this day and age the demand is so great for trophy animals it is hard to get those premium tags for everyone.

A profit driven outfitter agenda? Now that is a new angle. Is it a sin and a crime for an outfitter to keep his head above water and stay in business? I know of very few outfitters whom make very much money at this business. It is more of a love than anything to most of us.

Why don't you talk to Travis Bullock and his lovely bride over at Challis, ID. I can only picture Travis as loving what he does, and he is doing a good job, plus he is taking out a bunch of the wolves.

Talk to Ken Sinay, Yellowstone Wildlife Safaris whom basically had to quit hunting elk and now has the biggest eco-wolf tourism business in the world. He even told me that it will take a lot of ecotourism to replace his old hunting revenues. I think he has done really well and has a thriving business. He is fortunate in that he lives near Yellowstone to take advantage of the huge tourist industry and an unfettered wolf population to exploit.

Talk to Ron Dube, he worked very hard to build up his business and he was fortunate to sell his operation to Jake Clark's son-in-law and daughter.

Ron, Ken, and Travis all have or had in Ron's case, exclusive hunting and recreation exclusive areas for their operations so maybe they are subsidized? I don't really think so.

Like I say every state is different and we only have around 230 licensed outfitters in NM, whereas Montana has almost 1200. I don't know about WY.

I argue a lot with the average joe hunter movers and shakers down here but we seem to usually compromise to a degree. Having said this, there for sure is a general hatred for outfitters and I guess the burr under your saddle blanket Buzz is us damned old outfitters.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-14 AT 03:20PM (MST)[p]Stoney, your rhetoric is stereotypical immature and gets old, Wildlife is a public resource, owned by all people.
This idea you have that outfitters are better and there needs should be met because they are just good old boys making a living is pathetic.
Yes they are profit driven, and they take away opportunities from other owners of the finite resource called wildlife.
Whether its carving illegal trails in the Wyoming backcountry, pressuring trophy wildlife and killing many of them or just taking tags and opportunity away from general hunters and creating crowded hunting conditions, it all has an impact, and outfitters have a much bigger impact than regular hunters.

Your idea of which politicians are better is laughable, Whether its Gary Johnsons signing of a bill to make all nonresident hunters have an outfitter in New Mexico, or Butch Otter signing a bill to sell off 15% of all public land, or Rick Santorum telling people that if he becomes president he will work hard to sell off all the public land.
You had better start paying attention to who does what and why.

Wake up boy, pull your head out of the crapper, take a breath, wolves aren't anywhere near the top of the list of threats, and if your still so worried about wolves go up to Idaho and hunt one.
 
Or come to Montana. I was up after them today. Hell stoney, I'll take you. Dammit, I was done with this. mtmuley
 
Where in the hades did you hear Rick Santorum wanting to sell off ALL public land if elected president? I say that's a little white lie. Where?
 
The outfitter tag issue is a hard one. On one side it may not be fair to resident and non-resident hunters who do not want or maybe afford an outfitter tag. On the other side it will bring money to the Fish & Game Department and the state. This is even more so if a non-resident purchases the tag from outfitter.

I guess if we want more money to come in to help manage and hopefully increase our game but still be fair to other hunters who may not want or possibly afford an outfitter tag then they could do something like this. This is based on me not knowing much about outfitters so go easy on me.

First the Game Department would have to figure how many animals they have in the state and each unit. How many tags and possible harvest level for the year will be. How many outfitters are in the state. If there is a good amount of outfitters compared to what the state could afford to give out to be fair then the outfitters could go into a drawing against each other with a chance of not getting any tags at all. A rule could be put into place that outfitter tags can only go to non-residents to bring in the most money to the state.

I also think WY should let non-residents hunt in a wilderness without an outfitter or resident. I for one would like to hunt WY but don't know anyone that lives there and enjoy DIY hunts. Public land if payed by everyone that pays taxes in the U.S. and we should not be told only residents on a single state can go hunt in a public land wilderness area. I just don't understand how that one works. Outfitters in the rest of the country and world can make a living without having a rule/law like this. Just one persons opinion I guess.
 
The outfitter tag issue is a hard one. On one side it may not be fair to resident and non-resident hunters who do not want or maybe afford an outfitter tag. On the other side it will bring money to the Fish & Game Department and the state. This is even more so if a non-resident purchases the tag from outfitter.

No, its not a tough issue. Many states dont have outfitter sponsored/guaranteed tags...Montana and Wyoming being two I can think of right off.

The tag fees are not set by outfitters. Thats done by the state via the Legislature typically. So, it doesnt matter if a NR hunter who intends to go with an outfitter, or a DIY NR hunter purchases the tag as far as revenue to the G&F is concerned.

Clearly, these set asides are nothing but welfare to one segment of the business community that profits from Wildlife Resources. Frankly, I find it odd that meatcutters, hotel owners, gas stations, dont also receive some guaranteed tags to assure them business. Why we choose to only prop up one segment of the business community with welfare tags seems odd???

I guess if we want more money to come in to help manage and hopefully increase our game but still be fair to other hunters who may not want or possibly afford an outfitter tag then they could do something like this. This is based on me not knowing much about outfitters so go easy on me.

First the Game Department would have to figure how many animals they have in the state and each unit. How many tags and possible harvest level for the year will be. How many outfitters are in the state. If there is a good amount of outfitters compared to what the state could afford to give out to be fair then the outfitters could go into a drawing against each other with a chance of not getting any tags at all. A rule could be put into place that outfitter tags can only go to non-residents to bring in the most money to the state.


Nope...way easier way to deal with outfitter sponsored tags...dont have them. Let the CITIZENS decide, not the Legislature that can be bought and paid for by lobbyists, what percentage of tags they want to give to the NR hunters. For example, in Wyoming, we feel (depending on species), that roughly 20% of the tags should be NR's. There is no set aside for outfitters. The outfitters compete in a free market system for clients who want to use their services. They dont need to be assured business via welfare tags.

I also think WY should let non-residents hunt in a wilderness without an outfitter or resident. I for one would like to hunt WY but don't know anyone that lives there and enjoy DIY hunts. Public land if payed by everyone that pays taxes in the U.S. and we should not be told only residents on a single state can go hunt in a public land wilderness area. I just don't understand how that one works. Outfitters in the rest of the country and world can make a living without having a rule/law like this. Just one persons opinion I guess.

Well, not according to AK and WY. Without the assurance of business via welfare/outfitter tags, they lobbied, and successfully passed a "guide requirement" that essentially does the same thing as welfare tags. It guarantees them business and eliminates a true free market.

Its very discriminatory toward NR hunters who like to hunt on their own and dont need their hands held by a "guide"...using that pretty loose as theres more than a few "guides" and "outfitters" that shouldnt leave the blacktop. Not only is it discriminatory, its also heavily commercializes wildlife and takes away equal access to wildlife. Both of which, are in defiance of the basic tenants of the North American Model.

As a WY resident, I dont like the wilderness guide law, its just outfitter welfare...no two ways about it. However, it has been upheld in at least one court challenge. Tchnically, a NR of Wyoming is not being denied access to the Wilderness Areas. Its really no different than you drawing an elk tag for say...unit 1 and having a defined boundary on where you can...and cant hunt. Just because you have an elk tag for unit 1, doesnt give you the right to hunt legally accessible public land in unit 2, 3, or 4.

In other words, the state is limiting where you can hunt THEIR wildlife, not taking away your right to access wilderness.

Thats pretty much what the court case ruling was as well.

Theres no doubt that transferable landowner tags, outfitter welfare tags, and guides requirement of any kind need to be repealed.

Time to get back to the basics...equal access to YOURS and MY PUBLIC WILDLIFE.
 
Buzz & mtmuley,

First and foremost, wolves are only a pawn in the big chess game of the radicals using the ESA in any way they can to change the human landscape and the utopian dreams of returning the landscape to pre columbian settlement by bringing back all predators, stopping all hunting and letting nature runs its course. They are doing this very effectively with the spotted owl, the willow fly catcher, the Chiracahua Spotted Leopard Frog, the Mountain Meadow Jumping Mouse, the Spike Dace & Loach Minnows, the Goshawk and on and on and on and on.

These so called endangered species,and I repeat, so called, have caused absolutely so much human suffering in the west and else where in the US. Radical Environmentalism is ruining this country.

Do you realize who is behind all of this big attempt to change our very fabric of rural America. There are too many to list here but The Ted Turner Foundation has had the most influence in the wolf arena both up your way and down here. Then you have the Pew Charitable Trust and the Joyce foundation and many, many more whom fund the radical Biological Diversity Center,BDC and WildEarth Guardians and the Western Watershed people whom have learned to use the taxpayers to pay for their litigating the USFWS, FS, BLM and others through the Equal Access to Justice Act EAJA. They keep our Federal Agencies tied up in knots and get paid by you Buzz and me to do their Devil's work.

The Conservation Breeding Specialist Group and The International Union For Conservation of Nature (SSC/IUCN, an extremely huge collaboration of wildlife and landscape interests from all over the world, are the "Dog Wagging the Tail". They have have infiltrated and hi jacked the United States Endangered Species Act. The USFWS and the other federal agencies are the "tail" getting wagged by this much larger movement.

How do I know you might ask? I was a collaborator or invitee to the Mexican Gray Wolf Reintroduction Program/ Three Year Review Workshop in AZ in 2001, and the whole workshop was designed and hosted with their hand picked participants to try and sway any opposition over to the pro wolf arena. It was really kind of scary.

I would love to come up and wolf hunt with you someday mtmuley.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-01-14
>AT 03:20?PM (MST)

>
>Stoney, your rhetoric is stereotypical immature
>and gets old, Wildlife
>is a public resource, owned
>by all people.
> This idea you have that
>outfitters are better and there
>needs should be met because
>they are just good old
>boys making a living is
>pathetic.
>Yes they are profit driven, and
>they take away opportunities from
>other owners of the finite
>resource called wildlife.
> Whether its carving illegal trails
>in the Wyoming backcountry, pressuring
>trophy wildlife and killing many
>of them or just taking
>tags and opportunity away from
>general hunters and creating crowded
>hunting conditions, it all has
>an impact, and outfitters have
>a much bigger impact than
>regular hunters.
>
>Your idea of which politicians are
>better is laughable, Whether its
>Gary Johnsons signing of a
>bill to make all nonresident
>hunters have an outfitter in
>New Mexico, or Butch Otter
>signing a bill to sell
>off 15% of all public
>land, or Rick Santorum telling
>people that if he becomes
>president he will work hard
>to sell off all the
>public land.
>You had better start paying attention
>to who does what and
>why.
>
>Wake up boy, pull your head
>out of the crapper, take
>a breath, wolves aren't anywhere
>near the top of the
>list of threats, and if
>your still so worried about
>wolves go up to Idaho
>and hunt one.

Buzz,

You want me to pull my head out of the crapper and you think my posts are stereotypical immature rhetoric all the while you think that I better start paying attention to who does what and why.

So be it but as I said earlier in one of my posts I will debate you any day of the week and twice on Sundays.

Let me try and correct some of your assumptions and perceptions.

Outfitters are service providers enabling many whom other wise would not be able to enjoy the wilds and the hunting experiences that are afforded to people like you whom live here and are young enough and able bodied and experienced enough to hunt effectively. We provide opportunities to our clientele that otherwise wouldn't be possible or attainable for them.

Are their abuses to the system? Yes! I agree with you that wilderness areas in WY should be open to all without and outfitter. Now Alaska is somewhat different in my humble opinion.

In many instances such as goat hunting an outfitter whom is experienced in the extreme habitat and weather conditions is a must for many attempting to do it. Thats not to say many hunters like yourself maybe knowledgeable enough to tackle the endeavor but I'm a lifelong woodsmen and hunter and I wouldn't attempt the extreme backcountry of Alaska to hunt trophy goats without an outfitter. Dall and Stone Sheep to a lesser degree. Brown bears definitely no or at least without some back up. I have been to Alaska for goats and I know first hand. I can tell you stories and experiences from my friends whom outfit up there and will make your hair curl with average joe hunters getting in trouble.

Yes the wildlife is an infinite resource and I hate to see it being so commercialized. I hate these greedy outfitter reapers of the land probably worse than you do. Like you say the ones carving illegal trails both in and out of the wilderness, the outfitters and average joe hunters whom have outside the wilderness areas, made ATV roads into well traveled thoroughfares into some really remote country, and have effectively ruined the hunting for everybody with their lack of respect and greed and laziness and so forth.I know what you are talking about and am always fighting these sorry buggers.

Outfitting is a big business in the world and has a place in all states, continents and contrary to your extreme hatred of us there are many of us in the business that do not participate in the abuses you speak of above. I do agree with you about some of the greedy and unscrupulous outfitters and I hate them worse than you do. They give the rest of us a black eye.

On the flip side many greedy and slob hunters equally give the average joe hunter a big black eye.

Combined it is no wonder there are many forces against us hunters.

The NAM is a good, respected and needed outline for managing our public wildlife resource but you have made no argument against how it is exploited by the average joe hunter to justify equality to everyone.

You have made no argument how the average joe hunter in his individual state is subsidized by non-resident hunters and fishers, and how Your Public Wildlife spends most of its time on Federal and private lands so all taxpayers of the US are subsidizing the average joe hunter by feeding and watering their wildlife.

You have never answered my questions about you being a government employee or not. I think it has definite bearing on the whole subject if in fact you are.

No Buzz I understand that wolves are the least of my threats. It is the sum total radical environmental movement that is rolling over us like a freight train. Also some dumb ass Politicians!
 
Uhhh Stoney,

I think you need to find that first clue...like who is typing what in this thread.

Just sayin'...
 
Buzz,

Like you are the only one who has a clue?

Politicians and dumb asses are a dime a dozen. Does this include you? No I don't think so. I think you are more than likely a well educated, articulate and dedicated individual and you back up your beliefs the best way you can. Unfortunately you continue to bloviate your beliefs as facts and my beliefs as baloney.

There may be some similarities between you and I. I am a looked down on outfitter and you are a looked down on government employee.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-14 AT 11:46AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-14 AT 11:45?AM (MST)

Stoney,

Ok, since you still cant seem to find that clue...

I wasnt the poster that told you to pull your head out of the crapper. So, not sure why you would be addressing me with that post.

I disagree with your take on outfitter welfare, but I never told you to pull your head out or made any comments regarding your choice in politicians.

I sure hope you can read "sign" better in the woods, than you do on these discussions.

Perhaps you're in need of a forum "guide"...yes?

Carry on...
 
Buzz,

I am sorry. I transposed Piper's comments into yours. I stand corrected and much of the post above should have been directed at Piper. I will try to pay better attention. You did however on one of your above posts refer to one of my posts as a "pile of chit". I'm evidently clueless. There you go Buzz, you carry on!

Wolfhunter accused you in his post #134 of being with the Forest Service. Is that true? I think it has bearing on much of your posting throughout the whole thread. Just curious.
 
Yes, Buzz is subsidized government welfare to the core... He will not admit it sometimes. Our government has spent a lot of time and money making him into what he is today! He claims he is for the average joe, but thats only if they fit his personal agenda. Buzz believes like some other state & federal employee's he is better than everyone else. Pretty easy to see that in his posts!!!!
 
This thread has been entertaining, to say the least.
Most of the posters really want the same thing but have a different way to approach it. That's neither wrong or right. (Except for the illegal stuff, it's wrong!)

Cancer might not be the biggest health issue that I'll ever have but if I do have it I'll do everything possible to get rid of it. Yes, I may have many other health issues but I'd want to address that one for sure!

I see the wolf as a symptom of cancer in wildlife management and a tool used by the Eco-elite to ruin our way of life. Granted it's only ONE of the many wildlife issues but it's one on which we should all keep informed and active.

Thanks for all the good information, however, all the copy and paste stuff by B_S gets a bit much.

Buzz, thanks for all the info that comes straight from your head and heart!!! We don't always agree but I like your moxie.

Zeke
 
Wolfer, a little insight on Buzz's character.

I'm a director of Ravalli County Fish N Wildlife ass. I live just north of Salmon Idaho and share the same density of wolves that they do.

About 5 years ago we had were fighting to enact the 10j rule for one of our hunting districts in Ravalli county. We made many headlines in the paper and else ware fighting for some sort of wolf management. We also had been working the political areana hard.

Buzz thought what we were doing was reason enough to throw a life membership at us, even though he lives in Wyoming.

I'm also a founding member of Montana Sportsman's Alliance, and we help organize a rally during our last legislative session to gain access to our public lands. He came all the way from Wyoming, picked up his dad, and brother to ride on the Bus with me to Helena.

Attacking Buzz's credibility on sportsman's issues is laughable to those of us who are up over our waders in sportsman's issues.

Wolves are just one cog in this square wheel we need to fix.

Our club has help financed several studies in the area, actually closer to Salmon than Hamilton, that showed Lions and bears are killing more elk calves than wolves. We also helped finance a lion density study, that showed there was 2 to three times more lions than the managers thought. So tags will move accordingly.

Buzz's contribution helped out in those studies and in doing so had a measurable effect.

Can either Stoney or Wolfer say the same?







I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-14 AT 05:21PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-02-14 AT 04:21?PM (MST)

I guess it is too bad Buzz is not committed to bringing sportsman together on MM. Because if he was not such a D!CK he could really bring huge positive influence here too. Sure have not seen much of that here on these pages. Buzz sure has a funny way of trying to help. Mostly he talks down to people...Sad waste of talent!

We all have talents to bring to the table in this fight. I have spent THOUSANDS! hunting predators and trying to give back to wildlife. I would ride my horse to Montana if I thought it would help our next generation enjoy what we have been so blessed to enjoy!

WE ALL SHOULD BE WORKING TOGETHER BUT INSTEAD WE TEAR EACH OTHER APART FOR DIFFERENCES OF OPINION... I WOULD HAVE BET $10,000 THAT BUZZ WAS GETTING PAID BY THE WOLVE HIPPIES TO DIVIDE HUNTERS. 4100FPS IF WHAT YOU SAY IS TRUE ABOUT BUZZ ALL I CAN SAY IS SAD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
The reason I thought he might be government is mainly because of what he said in his post #84. I thought he had an official capacity to spend that many hours per month. I guess I was wrong. He is one dedicated son of a gun.

He said;

".....I work many, many, many hours per month with G&F staff, Directors etc.........I met with the WYG&F Director and WYG&F Wildlife Director just last week."

This is admirable and Wyoming's wildlife and sportsmen are hopefully better off for it, as are Montana's according to 4100fps and their intimate knowledge of Idaho.

I don't know how dedicated Wolfhunter is, but unfortunately down here in the SW our battle over County rights and State rights are being trampled by the Feds, and myself and many dedicated friends and allies are fighting long and hard to save our custom, culture and economic freedoms. The ESA and the forces behind it are unrelenting.

I'm glad everything is so hunky dory up north in regards to your wolves. It sounds like according to some of you they are just a blip on the radar.

Our side down here have followed every move your people have done
up there for years and I and many of my cohorts have reams of paper work, studies, court cases and scientific reviews to help us in our fight down here.

You can't even imagine the time and effort we have and are putting forth in our effort to fight the fight with the over zealous government agents and the radical environmentalists.

For example, I have researched the start of the Northern Rockies Wolf Recovery since 1993 and exactly how the IDGF illegally agreed to the Canadian Transplants. the IDGF Director Jerry Conley violated state statue I.C.Sec 36-715 (2) and on September 27, 1994, without authorization from the Legislature or even the full Oversight Committee, Conley signed a letter to Wolf Project leader Ed Bangs supporting the FWS to "release" a maximum of 15 Canadian wolves in Central Idaho for up to five years or until 2 breeding pairs are each documented to produce 2 or more pups that survive until December 31 for two consecutive years." The permit stated that the wolf release would be conducted in accordance with the Idaho wolf management plan. So many lies. God the Idaho sportsmen took it in the shorts.

What is even worse is IDFG biologists Kuck, Nelson, Rachael and Hanson provided the 1993 FWS Wolf EIS with highly inflated wild ungulate prey numbers for the 20,700 Sq. mile Central Idaho Primary Analysis Area. The claimed average post season elk and deer populations were six times higher then the numbers counted by helicopter and recorded by IDFG biologists in any unit in the PAA.

I know, I know, this is water under the bridge for you northern guys, but almost the same thing happened in AZ on the Mexican Wolf when the AZGFD biologists and officials highly inflated deer numbers in the proposed primary recovery range because they were issuing very high number of deer license and didn't want to let the public know that the deer numbers had dropped to a very low number, so they could keep up their scam of issuing very high numbers of deer tags. Also there was a lot of giving away the farm within the higher ups of the AZGFD.

Our fight is a long way from over here and we are learning a lot from what has taken place up north. Lesson #1, Don't trust anything the USFWS tells you.

Catron County, NM is in the lead in our battle with the Feds and the radical forces against us.
 
Buzz,

Clue #2

Quoting you from your post #132.

"I'm actively engaged in wildlife/hunting/habitat issues primarily as just an average guy."

What do you mean by primarily? I suppose I could guess or speculate on many different angles to this statement.

Back to the clues and since you think I am clueless, let me try and guess.

I think it was Mr. Green in the Conservatory with the lead pipe.

You as a Federal employee know how your federal agencies operate. You know that number #1, in your climb up the ladder of success in your government career is the standard CYB policy each and everyone of you abide by, therefore nothing ever gets done because of the merits of the issues, but in how you can climb the ladder.

You work for me and the rest of us hardworking taxpayers and often times we we see over zealous gov. employees making very important decisions that affect the lives of so many but that particular employee doesn't give a crap about the consequences as long as they get the next promotion or step up the pay scale ladder.

I hope you are not one of the above, and that you are one of the old school government employees whom still believe in the "multiple use - sustainable yield - management mission of the USFS. So many of the new generation FS employees are green to the gills.
 
Wolfhunter,

How is comparing poachers to patriots helping to "unite" sportsmen?

How is calling Sportsmen, who are actively engaged in Managing wolves, bisexuals and fags helping to unite Sportsmen?

Those things may be worth a thunk...

The sportsmen I hang around, and know, they work within the law to accomplish their goals...PERIOD, no exceptions. They've worked too hard to pi$$ away what we've accomplished, as well as their reputations as the leaders in Conservation, hunting, and hunting ethics.

Stoney,

The reason I said "primarily" as an "average Sportsmen" is because there are times that I'm asked to represent a Sportsmans Organization that I co-chair.

As to the rest, I have ZERO desire to climb the ladder and I dont make "important decisions". I've turned down higher paying positions to avoid being strapped to a desk.

As far as knowing how the various State and Federal systems work, IMO, its every citizens responsibility to know that stuff. I took 3 additional Resource Policy classes, that were not required in my major, to help me understand the process. I've also been dealing with various policy for a lot of years, and have learned via the school of hard knocks, from other Sportsmen, etc.

As far as MUSYA...yes, I do believe in it. But, most dont truly understand that ALL uses should be given equal consideration under the Law. Not necessarily those uses that provide the greatest unit output or monitary return. And be assured that the "uses" do not impair the productivity of the land.

The MUSYA is probably one of the least understand acts by the "average joe"...

The MUSYA does not give anyone carte-blanche authority to drive their ATV's whereever they want, mine whereever they want, cut trees whereever they want, graze whereever they want, etc.

Yet, thats exactly what 90% of the people think the Act "allows". Nothing could be farther from reality.
 
Buzz,

Let's be crystal clear (AGAIN). I am not advocating poaching!! I have NEVER broke the law killing wolves. I could have many times but did not. What I have said is for someone to take matters into their own hands and protect the wildlife in their back yard; They are a patriot. Fortunately for me my back yard falls into the predator zone. So we or I am able to eliminate problem wolves year around. Not everyone has that ability.

I think its clear that most of the lie's and laws being broke are in the protection of wolves. The whole reintroduction was illegal in Idaho. I guess if your a federal agency laws just don't apply...

I apologize to mtmuley for referring to his behavior being two sided and comparing him to being bisexual. Sorry dude...

I do have a question for Buzz and mtmuley WHY???? Why do you fellas do your best to talk down to people on here who appear to be passionate about protecting their hunting heritage. Someone who believes wolves are a HUGE threat. Folks who did not agree with the whole reintroduction being shoved down our throats. Folks who don't agree with the experts...WHY??
 
Wolfhunter,

You can dance around the truth regarding your comments all you want...you were specifically talking about the people of Salmon, Idaho "taking the law into their own hands".

Thats condoning, and encouraging, poaching...and frankly, I have no use for anyone that has this "thought" process.

I have much respect for those working within their legal right to hunt, fish, trap, etc.

I think its clear that most of the lie's and laws being broke are in the protection of wolves. The whole reintroduction was illegal in Idaho. I guess if your a federal agency laws just don't apply...

Not true, and heres why. If the wolf reintroduction in Idaho was illegal, the various Farm Bureaus, Stockgrowers associations, etc. would have filed suit and WON in court. Mysteriously, that never happened. Why do you suppose that is? Perhaps you need to brush up on your laws and regulations, paying particular attention to the ESA, NEPA, and a few others.


I do have a question for Buzz and mtmuley WHY???? Why do you fellas do your best to talk down to people on here who appear to be passionate about protecting their hunting heritage. Someone who believes wolves are a HUGE threat. Folks who did not agree with the whole reintroduction being shoved down our throats. Folks who don't agree with the experts...WHY??

Being passionate about your hunting heritage is one thing...being uninformed and spreading misinformation another.

You claim wolves cant be controlled...yet they are being controlled. You claim wolves are the biggest threat to elk herds, yet, numerous studies being done in ID, MT, and WY are proving thats simply not the case. See the Bitterroot calf mortality study, lion density study, selway/bitterroot calf mortality study, Yellowstone park studies. Those all point to other factors/predators having a much bigger impact on elk herds than wolves. Its already been pointed out to you that Montanas EMP is more responsible than all predators combined for the NYEH and its low numbers.

Its simply fact, and yet, you deny those facts to further your agenda.

Myself and mtmuley have never once denied that wolves have an impact...all predators that kill a single elk have an impact. The thing you cant understand is that the science DOES NOT support your false assertions that wolves are wiping out elk. Its just the case.

Further, you continue with the false idea that, "wolves were shoved down your throat".

Its just not the truth, not one bit of anything to do with reality in that statement. There has NEVER, in the history of the EIS/NEPA process, where more information, more meetings, and more comments were received....EVER. The results of literally hundreds of scoping meetings, several open comment periods, several thousand information requests...all added up to OVERWHELMING support of wolf reintroduction.

Thats all documented as part of the public record. Over 90% of the comments received, nation-wide, were in support of wolf reintroduction. Over 70% of respondents from WY, ID, and MT were in support of wolf reintroduction.

How much more time did all those concerned with wolf reintroduction expect to get their voices heard? Its not my fault, that I saw the same faces, the same concerned hunters, over and over and over again. Meanwhile the majority of those that are bi tching about wolves being shoved down their throats now, yeah...those guys never made an ounce of effort THEN. Complacency is a personal choice...dont whine that theres a price to be paid for those CHOICES.

Again, knowing this as the FACTS of what happened, because, as usual, I'm not forced to guess...I saw it, I attended the meetings...how can you, with a straight face, tell me that wolves were shoved down your throat???

Spreading misinformation is wrong...and you have a real knack for it.

Finally, wolf management is now in the hands of the States, wolf reintroduction will not be reversed, and wolves will not be shot out again.

Time to quit the hand-wringing and spreading misinformation and get on with proper management (which is happening).

Simple...really simple.
 
sagebrush,

Good post! The AZ Public Hearing was according to your link was probably 80% or more against wolves and the balance pro-wolf. A very good read and hopefully Buzz will read through the 100+ pages to get a feel for what is going on with the "Move the Goal Posts" changes being made by the almighty USFWS and Mr. Benjamin Tuggle and his cohorts.

Buzz,

It seems many of your so called Facts don't hold up to scrutiny and most of what you are posting is opinion.

Sure 90% of the general populace is in favor of wolves and their proliferation. The other 10% are the ones whose lives are being affected directly. We are the ones living here and whom depend on the natural resource for our livings.

Please go back up to my comments #163 on Idaho's sportsmen and ranchers having the Canadian wolves "shoved down their throats".

Idaho and Wyoming sportsmen and ranchers were jerked around by the USFWS 10j rules and the hidden agendas throughout the pre-delisting. Dr. Kay was very critical of the processes the USFWS were using to promulgate their so called required enforcement/management of the ESA. Dr. David L. Mech, one of the leading wolf biologists in North America , said that "legitimate wolf recovery efforts have been hijacked by pro wolf extremists. Mech who chaired 11 peer reviewed scientists that passed Wyoming's Wolf management plans overwhelmingly in 2004, with only one dissenting vote. USFWS intervened and overturned the peer review science board, thereby denying the state of Wyoming, any real wolf management control methods.

Thank God for the delisting up your way but the 10% of the directly affected people were severely and unrelentingly jerked around and had these wolves shoved down their throats.

Like you Buzz I have attended so many of these hearings and will keep on attending many more, that I have reams and reams of documents and testimony on how the USFWS operates and jerks people around, how they lie right to your face and how corrupt they have been and still are.

They are shoving these wolves down our throats.

Buzz, both the northern wolf proliferation and the Mexican wolf program were done illegally from the start. In your neck of the woods wolves were not extinct but the USFWS wanted everyone to believe that. They brought in this much larger Canadian wolves into a native wolf area and done so against their own rules of endangered and threatened wolves. the same thin in NM & AZ, we had the native Mexican wolves coming out of Mexico into the southern parts of our state and the USFWS denied it and ran off our true Mexican wolf biologists McBride and Parker. They had proof positive with photos in southern AZ of these native wolves. The USFWS immediately ran these wolf experts off and shoved the hybrid pen raised wolves down our throats.

Buzz, you basically claim that wolfkiller and sagebrush know not of what they speak and you supposedly do. Like I said I will debate you anyday of the week and twice on Sundays.

Carry on.
 
Buzz,

In the "shoving down the throats" of the sportsmen and ranchers of Idaho in 2006 in the initial agreements to these folks the ranchers were given limited ability to kill wolves harassing, pursuing or killing livestock. The IDDFG was given permission to remove wolves that are seriously depleting wildlife in wolf density areas, but they had to jump through some formidable hoops to do so. IDFG "cannot remove wolves until scientific studies have been completed to prove that wolves are seriously depleting wildlife in those areas". Once those studies are done then it has to be approved by peer review.

Now here it where it got interesting:

The PH.D.'s that were put in charge of peer review science were TV mogul Ted Turner's Turner Endangered Species Foundation, main man Mike Phillips and on loan from the USFWS Val Asher. Mike Phillips, formerly employed with the USFWS, was responsible for the so-called "soft core introduction of wolves into Yellowstone Park." A team of 15 Ph.D.'s who specialize in predator prey, said "Yellowstone could hold 789-100 wolves maximum if it were done over a 110 to 20 year period", and at that time were already at 350 plus wolves in seven years. Phillips said before a crowd of 400 "the main goal of wolf recovery is to drive 30,000 ranchers off public lands"., by encouraging pro wolf extremists to eliminate the Taylor Grazing Act. Phillips and Asher were holding all the power.

Mike Phillips was and is probably still vitally involved in the Mexican Gray Wolf proliferation by hook or crook. I witnessed his extreme bias several years ago at the Mexican Wolf Three Year Review. Along with him the workshop feature Dr. Paul Paquet another USFWS bought and paid for so called biologist. Later on Val Geist completely made Paquet look like a paid off amature in the Kenton Carnegie Canadian student killed by wolves Nov. 8th, 2005. Paquet was called in initially and he predictably and immediately declared that Kenton was probably killed by a bear and not wolves.

Now Buzz, this is just a mere drop in the bucket of the many instances of the Feds shoving the wolves down our throats.

You truly need to go back and revisit what it is you think you learned and what is actually going on today with the same old rhetoric and Benjaman Tuggle USFWS Wolf Program Director is among the best at coming back at us with end run after end run.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-14 AT 01:20PM (MST)[p]Stoney,

I know whats "going on today"...WY, MT, ID and most of the midwest states are controlling wolves via state plans.

Your claims, as wild and untrue as they may be, are not verifiable via any form of proof you may "think" you have. Sorry if I dont fall for the "he said, she said" approach you seem fond of spouting as a "truth" or "fact".

Reading and quoting lobowatch is not "proof"...in case you missed that.

Before I go on to dismantel your untruths...is there anything you want to re-establish/restate in your previous 2 posts???

I'll give you a few hours to review your words before I rub your nose in your imagination.
 
After all the hearings on the outcome of the Mexican wolf in AZ & NM, the condescending plicks that suck on the federal tit for a living will find a few hundred ranchers, a handful of elected officials, a few state agencies and a few thousand hunters (all from the southwest) came out against wolf expansion. Just the people that live where the wolves will be placed. Millions of wolf hippies in NY, VT, ME and CA will come out for it, through their chosen 6 or 7 spokespersons. Guess what? More wolves in AZ & NM! I wonder what the people of NYC would think if the people from the southwest put wolves in Central Park. Sounds ridiculous when the wolves are going the other way, doesn't it. I hope the people in Scottsdale and Fountain Hills like the idea of wolves in their urban wilderness.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-14 AT 06:29PM (MST)[p]Stoney,

I think Buzz is afraid of you.... Thank You for bringing your knowledge to this discussion. It's important for people to see what you have learned. I wish Buzz would man up to your challenges!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-14 AT 06:15PM (MST)[p]If I had the choice between a pack of wolves moving into my favorite hunting area or an outfitter and guide service moving in, I believe that I would rather have the wolves.
 
Buzz,

Lobowatch who is that or who are they? I have many sources and can substantiate everything I have written. I stand behind everything I wrote.

I haven't figured out where or what you base all of you supposed truths on, but you sure seem to think you know it all. Bring it on.

Piper you won't be happy until all public lands ranchers are gone and no outfitters are allowed anywhere anytime. You want unfettered access to all lands, private, public and in between. You want most non-residents to stay home so you and Buzz can tip toe through the tulips while stumbling over wolf turds!
 
What the heck has jealousy got to do with it?

Actually I had an outfitter move into my long time favorite area, and some of my new favorite areas have wolves.
Go figure.
 
>Buzz,
>
>In the "shoving down the throats"
>of the sportsmen and ranchers
>of Idaho in 2006 in
>the initial agreements to these
>folks the ranchers were given
>limited ability to kill wolves
>harassing, pursuing or killing livestock.
>The IDDFG was given permission
>to remove wolves that are
>seriously depleting wildlife in wolf
>density areas, but they had
>to jump through some formidable
>hoops to do so. IDFG
>"cannot remove wolves until scientific
>studies have been completed to
>prove that wolves are seriously
>depleting wildlife in those areas".
>Once those studies are done
>then it has to be
>approved by peer review.


That is crazy if true about needing peer reviewed studies. It is the first I ever heard about it for ID. Oregon only needs a state wolf biologist to verify a wolf or wolves killed livestock. Not study or peer review for them.
 
Piper,

Jealousy is usually the biggest contributing factor to most of the guys I know who are anti-outfitter... I hunt around outfitters all the time and 99% of them are great guys. Wolves are not good neighbors, wolves kill year round and kill more than they can eat at times. The Frank Church Wilderness had great hunting when it was full of outfitters. Now that it is full of wolves the outfitters are going out of business and hunting is considerably more difficult!!!!! Are you jealous of successful outfitters Piper
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-04-14 AT 08:48PM (MST)[p]Wolfhunter, Jealousy has nothing to do with anything, its just a word people like to throw around when they don't want to talk about the issues.
And it has nothing to do with good guy outfitters, the ones I know are good guys too.
Every American owns the public land but everyone wants something different from it, the people who live near public land and those that use it more have a bigger say, but they don't have the only say in how its managed, there are laws to go by and its tough to balance everything.

Some users have a big impact and they make money off of the public resources, Outfitters have a big impact, so do ranchers, sure they are great guys, but they have a big impact on those resources, just like the wolves the bears and the lions do.

When people question the policies that allow a relatively few people to make money and have a large and what many consider negative impact on the public land,
You and others cry "Jealousy".

I have hunted and packed in the Frank Church 4 or 5 times, its some great country, one time in the early 80s there were so many mule deer that nonresidents could buy two backcountry deer tags for 25 dollars each.

Unfortunately Guiding and outfitting has come a long ways since the days of pack strings in the Frank Church and other big wilderness areas, I won't elaborate, but its troubling to me.

The wolves are here, so make the best of it, go hunting, get a wolf mount, enjoy the wild country.
Its the same with outfitters and all the other changes that have gone on in this sport, you just have to make the best of it, find some new places, hunt the thick trees or whatever, If you don't your just going to be miserable.
 
Stoney,

Your "facts" are so far from fact...and in such abundance, its pretty tough to find a good starting point.

I reckon I can just rub your nose in the "wolves were shoved down our throats" mantra for a good place to start.

How you can make that claim is quite humorous. In particular with the following FACTS from the FEIS:

1. The Northern Rocky Mountain Wolf Recovery Plan was first approved by the FWS in 1980. The plan was ?intended to provide direction and coordination for efforts toward recovery of at least two viable Northern Rocky Mountain Wolf (Canis Lupus Irremotus) populations in the lower 48 states.?

2.
However, before any reintroduction effort was initiated, the appropriate National Environmental Policy Act documents (Environmental Impact Statement) were to be prepared with full public involvement.


In the 1990 Department of Interior Appropriations Bill (PL 101-512 enacted on November 5, 1990), Congress direct the Secretary of Interior to appoint a 10-member committee, composed of
representatives of the National Park Service (NPS), FWS, U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) Forest Service, representatives from fish and game agencies from Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming, conservation groups, and livestock and hunting communities. The committee?s task was to develop a
gray wolf reintroduction and management plan for Yellowstone National Park and the central Idaho Wilderness Area. The Committee was further charged with making its completed plan and its recommendations available to the Secretary and the Congress by May 15, 1991. The Committee?s plan was to represent a consensus agreement with at least six members supporting the plan. Seven members (FWS, USDA Forest Service, three state agencies, hunting and livestock representatives) voted for the plan, one abstained (NPS), and two voted against it(conservation group representatives).

3. The next step was to contact nearly 2,500 groups or individuals previously expressing interest in wolf
recovery to solicit their input. A series of 34 informational meetings was held in April 1992 to obtain Purpose of and Need for Action comments on issues of concern to the public about wolf reintroduction and its impacts. A series of 27
meetings and 6 formal hearings was held in August 1992 to report on the issues identified and solicit input on the range of alternatives to be considered in the EIS. Brochures detailing the results of the issue identification and alternatives formulation were sent to nearly 32,000 individuals and groups that requested to receive information. The mailing list included individuals representing all 50 states and 40 foreign countries. Nearly 4,000 comments on issues and about 5,000 comments on alternatives were received from the public.

4.On July 1, 1993, the DEIS was presented for public review and written comments on the DEIS were accepted from July 1, 1993, through November 26, 1993. Oral testimony, treated the same as written comments, was accepted during 12 formal hearings held in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming (4 in each state) and 4 hearings held in Salt Lake City; Seattle, Washington; Denver, Colorado; and Washington, D.C. Over 160,000 comments were received.

5. Public Review of DEIS

The purpose of public review of the DEIS was to obtain additional information and ideas from the public on reintroduction of wolves into Yellowstone National Park and central Idaho. The public comment period began July 1, 1993, with a press conference in Washington, D.C. Additionally, a news
release, requesting comment on the DEIS, was provided to over 500 media contacts (newspaper, radio, and television). About 1,700 copies of the complete DEIS were nailed to all potentially affected government agencies, public libraries in the 3-state region, many special interest groups, and to anyone requesting the complete DEIS. About 42,00 summaries of the DEIS were mailed to people and organizations on the Gray Wolf EIS mailing list and to anyone requesting them. In addition, the DEIS
summary, a schedule of public hearings, and a request to report wolf sightings was printed in the form of a newspaper flyer and was inserted into the Sunday (July 18 and 25) editions of six major newspapers in Montana(Bozeman Chronicle and Billings Gazette), Idaho (Lewiston Tribune and Boise Statesman), and Wyoming (Casper Star Tribune and Cheyenne Eagle Tribune). These newspapers have a combined circulation of about 280,000. The comment period was extended from the original deadline of October 15, 1993 to November 26, 1993.

6. Written public comments on all or part of DEIS were obtained in the form of letters, postcards, resolutions, and petitions. To provide an opportunity for people to voice their concerns, 12 formal hearings were held in Coeur d? Alene, Lewiston, Idaho Falls, and Boise, Idaho; Bozeman, Missoula, Dillon, and Helena, Montana; and Cody, Riverton, Jackson Hole, and Cheyenne,Wyoming; and four more hearings were held in Salt Lake City, Utah; Seattle, Washington; Denver, Colorado; and Washington, D.C. Hearings were conducted during the months of August and September 1993 and comments were accepted from 2 p.m. to 10 p.m. At these hearings, verbal testimony (treated the same as written responses) was recorded and any written comments were accepted.
A total of 160,254 agencies, organizations, and individuals commented on the DEIS, making it one of the largest responses to any federal action. The majority of responses were in written form. About 700 people testified.


I'll not rub your nose in your false "facts" that the "wolves were shoved down throats" any more than to say, it just wasnt so. While those numbers look like a lot, it should be fair to note that of those 160,254 comments received, over 90% were in FAVOR of reintroduction. Which translates to 16,025 of those comments being against reintroduction. Taking into consideration, just the number of ranchers, and licensed hunters in the tri-state area...thats a pi$$ poor showing as a best case.

The question I have...and have always had...where were all the concerned ranchers, hunters, sportsmen, etc.???

I would have to assume playing rip van winkle somewhere, but no excuse for the dismal showing they had all along the 14 year period they had to organize, unite, and comment multiple times.

So, with that, I'll not be listening to any more of the "wolves were shoved down our throats" propoganda bullchit that you and a few others are crying about.

Its just a fact, and proves that public involvement, or lack-there-of, is what landed us with wolf reintroduction.

The facts tell the tale.
 
And here are two more "facts".....wolves are here is one. The other is thay have been the only "intangible" in the whole habitat, preadator, global warming BS for the last 20 years. In that time.....my, oh my, have the "game" numbers dropped. Even the "swamp people" might question some of the alledged "facts" being thrown out there regarding that.

As we argue, let's not forget that, please. Anyone can cite a "study" as something legitimate. If you poll the right people, Domino's pizza is the only pizza ever made.....just sayin.

I like the fact Buzz knows all things from awhile ago, I like facts. I, unfortunately am too young to have been there. I like good debate, but at the end of the day, are we all trying to solve something or show each other how big out #####$ are???

Instead of fighting about what we know.....let's put this energy toward keeping hunting (for lack of better wording?)as a first prioriy. Maybe those damn guys in AZ & NM are the dudes involved in the first stages of what "Buzz" went thru 15 years ago & have decided "we are not goin to take it"??

At the end of the day, it still tastes like food shoved.....in case nobody understands that....there is no accepted comment in AZ & NM right now from the general public. The agencies hear, but nobody is listening because someone above is pulling the strings. As you go through life.....it's not what you know, it's who you know. Especially with regard to wildlife in general.

That is what SUCKS!!!!

Carry on, boys.....
 
Buzz,

All of your above while being technically and numerically correct doesn't tell the whole story.

Perhaps many ranchers, hunters and local business people weren't and didn't get involved in the early 90's Why do you suppose only 16,025 commented against while according to your facts 144,229 commenters were pro wolf or approved of the DEIS?

I totally agree, where were all of the people whom were to become more impacted than any of the 144,229 people whom weren't going to be drastically affected?

The Government through all of its supposed cooperative agreements or lack there of didn't fully involve the people whom should have been accepted and invited early on in the process. I am specifically referring to County and local governments.

After the fact Catron County, NM was one of the first counties in the west to formulate a Comprehensive Land Use Plan. Basically the Government told us from the start we didn't have standing and that we had to fully describe our present and long term land use plan. Finally we started breaking down the barriers to get cooperative agreements to work with the federal agencies and have official standing in the future actions involving the natural resource here. Catron County, NM broke new ground and finally got some attention from the Feds and we really stirred up the radicals and our County got sued over our County Wolf Ordinances and etc. Our County has almost went broke form fighting for the very lives, livelihoods, custom, culture and economic well being of it's citizens.

Yes Mr. US Forest Service employee, there is not space enough here or time enough to explain how we literally had these wolves shoved down our throats. Maybe that is not the correct terminology. Maybe it is the government pushed by the NGO's to slide the shive into us from the backside and now they are trying to do it from the front.

ASB,

You are right on. The whole wolf program was politicized from the start and still is. True wildlife science has played only a small part of this huge movement. Much bigger than Buzz's so called people want wolves, no matter what the true cost to human lives and livelihoods here.
 
I've written a few comments regarding the wolf introduction, but I've never physically attended or commented at one of the public events. The only one's I've attended were a long time ago regarding the establishment of Redwood National Park and the establishment of the Headwaters Forest, both in California.

Both of those were dog and pony shows only conducted to satisfy the legal requirement of having a public comment period. Of the people who spoke in favor of the parks, the majority of those were young unemployed hippy type people who were not residents and were paid by Earth First to show up and voice their support.

The only good thing that happened was that some provisions were put in place to help the people who lost their jobs because of the parks. The fact that the parks were going to be established was set in stone long before the comment period.

I can't imagine the wolf introduction was one bit different.
 
Stoney,


You said:

Perhaps many ranchers, hunters and local business people weren't and didn't get involved in the early 90's Why do you suppose only 16,025 commented against while according to your facts 144,229 commenters were pro wolf or approved of the DEIS?

Really simple, because hunters, ranchers, and business people didnt get involved. Its not my fault they were derelict in their duties as citizens. Its not my fault they were complacent and didnt care that wolves were reintroduced. By not attending meetings, not organzing, not providing written comments, and not being involved enough to express their views...what did they think would happen?

I totally agree, where were all of the people whom were to become more impacted than any of the 144,229 people whom weren't going to be drastically affected?

Making a lot of assumptions there chief. You dont know who made the comments for and against wolf reintroduction. I can assure you that many taking a stance against wolf reintroduction were not impacted, and many that were in favor of reintroduction have been impacted.

As to why more people didnt comment...see my above paragraph. What I can tell you is that nobody...not one person, can say they "didnt know about wolf reintroduction"...or "nobody kept us informed". If they had their head in the sand for 14 years, never turned on a TV, opened a newspaper, listened to the radio, etc. etc. etc. well, too bad.

]Government through all of its supposed cooperative agreements or lack there of didn't fully involve the people whom should have been accepted and invited early on in the process. I am specifically referring to County and local governments.

Wrong, they invited ANYONE, any AGENCY, and GROUP to send in comments, attend meetings, and testify. Its all there, black and white, crystal clear. Complacency, once again, is not an excuse.

After the fact Catron County, NM was one of the first counties in the west to formulate a Comprehensive Land Use Plan. Basically the Government told us from the start we didn't have standing and that we had to fully describe our present and long term land use plan. Finally we started breaking down the barriers to get cooperative agreements to work with the federal agencies and have official standing in the future actions involving the natural resource here. Catron County, NM broke new ground and finally got some attention from the Feds and we really stirred up the radicals and our County got sued over our County Wolf Ordinances and etc. Our County has almost went broke form fighting for the very lives, livelihoods, custom, culture and economic well being of it's citizens.

Jimmy crack corn....

The discussion is about wolf reintroduction, not your counties problems with fighting things to their own detriment. Take it up with your county attorney, commission, etc. It was your counties CHOICE to enter the arena.

there is not space enough here or time enough to explain how we literally had these wolves shoved down our throats. Maybe that is not the correct terminology. Maybe it is the government pushed by the NGO's to slide the shive into us from the backside and now they are trying to do it from the front.

Again, your choice to deny the facts is truly something. Maybe you missed it the first time: Seven members (FWS, USDA Forest Service, three state agencies, hunting and livestock representatives) voted for the plan

Looks to me like only 2 of the 7 groups endorsing the reintroduction plan were NGO's.

I question whether you live in the State of New Mexico...you seem much more at ease living in the State of denial.
 
Buzz,

The original 10 member committee only included the folks up in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming. That unholy alliance didn't have anything to do with the SW wolf population and or plan.

I can't speak for my friends and business associates up there but I don't think they were asleep at the switch.

We basically tried to use some of the things that were successful and pertinent up there, to our situation down here.

You highlight and gloat over the fact that many sportsmen,ranchers and outfitters were caught of guard up there. ESB and eelgrass have basically reiterated what I am saying. they were basically dog and pony shows and if anybody on the ranching and outfitting and hunting side were in agreement of the USFWS, DOI proposals they must have been lied to, drugged or drunk to sell everyone down the river.

Most of the movers and shakers in the NGO part of the equation are radical green groups and with all of the radical green employees running the USFWS and BLM shows and the US Forest Circus they can and do push off their liberal green agenda on the citizens.

Go up and read the Above USFWS Public Meeting in AZ recently and see how many are in favor of your stupid programs.

I would bet that you think the way you do Buzz, because of your career with the Forest Service and have been indoctrinated and inoculated with their Govt. corruption, and green slanted propaganda programs. You actually must believe you are right in your own mind, but you my friend are about as liberal as any sportsmen I have encountered on this forum as well a the Bowsite forum.

Well Buzz it's time for you to go to another FS meeting so your bosses can pump up your green ego some more.

Come down to NM and AZ and see for yourself to see if the people here are in denial. Many in the SW are tired of being lied to, run around with so called public meetings and comments, and in general treated very badly by the Feds. The USFS ranks right up there with the BLM and USFWS in the the proliferation of the green movement, and many hate ranchers and anyone being out on their playground recreating or any consumptive users of the public lands such as logging and mining and so on. I don't know any old school FS employees anymore just you brain washed liberals. A big share of all of the FS moneys go into Fire. Not much left for trails, recreation, grazing, logging or anything else. But boy they are good at trying to hold public meetings to pump people full of their green agenda.

Carry on Buzz, and get back to work. You are on my dime I think.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-14 AT 12:45PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-14 AT 11:41?AM (MST)

I remember the Wilderness area hearings in Nevada very well, the majority of locals howled like the end of the world was coming.
I was one of the minority of pro wilderness locals along with the majority of other non locals who commented on the proposals.
Congress jammed that wilderness down their throats the locals said.

The heli ski operation was successful in chopping up and cherry stemming the Ruby Mountain wilderness boundary so they could land their choppers on the peaks and ski down. Wouldn't you know some years later there was a proposal to start a summer and fall helicopter hiking operation in the Ruby wilderness area.
Wouldn't that be fun, carrying a pack for miles on your long awaited archery hunt and having the choppers fly over and come in and drop off hikers for wilderness hikes?

Thank the lord the locals don't usually get their way, I believe young people and future hunters would have much a much poorer landscape to enjoy if those wilderness bills hadn't passed.
That's a common theme throughout the west, whether it was the creation of Grand Teton National park or Malheur wildlife refuge in Oregon, or even the creation of the forest reserves, they were all bitterly fought by the locals.
Hindsight is pretty good though, the west would be a much
different place to live if the majority of locals would have gotten their way.

There are always backwards counties, always have been, Catron county NM, Elko county Nevada, Grand county Utah, as some prime examples. Spending taxpayer money on lost causes, whining and crying their eyes out and wanting control of all the land without owning it.
Elko county has lots of (Elk free zones) and can't seem to keep the elk herds beat down low enough, I used to see bumper stickers saying "Elk free by 2003" or "by by BLM"
Grand county officials really pushed hard for a major hi-way to be cut right through the middle of the Book cliffs, (good for hunting)

Catron county is a classic, they have written ordinances stating that if any government regulations diminish the value of the un-owned lands use for Ranching, logging, or mining, it is considered a taking and has to be compensated by the government. (Good luck elk)
One ordinance states that grazing on un-owned land is defined as a property right and is therefore treated as a civil right!
The author of these ordinances states that 40 percent of the county citizens are of British decent and so they despise government and absentee landlords.

This is the stuff stoney swallows up.
 
Piper,

You are perhaps the sickest liberal poster on this site bar none.

Your perceptions are just that, perceptions. You don't have a clue Piper.

You and a couple more here are what we call NAMbies, short for Zombies. Your types believe in the NAMunist Manifesto! You think as a resident the wildlife belong only to you and you don't give one hoot about the hard working people that provide habitat for your wildlife. You want unfettered access to all of these lands and habitats for your own selfish purposes. To hell with the ranchers, outfitters, local businesses is your stance here.

I take a lot of conservative hunters from all over the US and Canada and we have had no liberals that I can ever think of in my lifetime.

So short sighted...........
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-14 AT 12:45PM (MST)[p]+1 ASB

eelgrass - A couple years ago the eco hippies wanted to create a new 1.3 million acre wilderness area west of Phoenix. They all got together, created a big dog & pony show with 27 glossy color photographs and drafted their proposal without input from any stakeholders. Word got out and we demanded public comment meetings in the local area. They did their dog & pony with that same smug attitude you described, you public dumbasses can make a comment but this deal is already done and your just p!ssing in the wind. Well the outcry was so strong against their wilderness proposal, they finally had to back down. A small win for the little guy. I recall in one meeting I attended, a guy from the BLM was pointing to a map showing all the existing two tracks and roads and telling us which ones he was going to close and which ones he would let us keep and how access to the wilderness was more than adequate. One guy in the audience asked how they came up with the lists with attention to one particular area. The BLM guy stated that all of the roads had been travelled and catalogued and he personally conducted the survey in that specific area. The guy from the audience walked up to the map and asked "You travelled this road right here?" The BLM guy said yes and the guy from the audience said, "That's pretty funny because that road doesn't even exist." and went on to explain how he and his family had been camping and hunting in that area for three generations and then showed what the true access route was, which was slated to be closed, and volunteered to take the BLM guy out and show him. The wilderness proponents lost all credibility from that point on. I have never seen such a diverse coalition of determined people. There were hunters, trappers, cyclists, offroaders, birders, equestrians and even some hikers, all in opposition to the proposal. It was a real enemy of my enemy is my friend moment.
That is the good news. The bad news is the same eco hippies are now trying to get the same lands designated as a Special Management Area without public comment, but that is another story.
My point here is people can make a difference. The word needs to get out and people need to be made aware of what is happening and what is proposed. I promise you, if people knew ranchers were beening driven out of business and children were waiting for the school bus in wolf proof cages, they might not be so quick to let the expansion take place. Guys like stoney need a venue to get the word out.
 
Stoney, there's an outfitter over on Bowsite.com that sets out traps and books clients on trapping expeditions. He's very busy this time of year and booked solid. I suggest you learn how to trap and hunt wolves. You might even come to respect the animal you hate the most. Maybe you'll see a purpose for their existence.



I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
4100fps,

What do YOU see the wolve's purpose to be??? Other than to kill and thin down a herd. How do they fit in to the Frank Church and still allow quality hunting? With the too many mountain lions, global warming or what ever else you claim is killing elk besides wolves.

I hunt, trap and respect wolves for being the most challenging animal to hunt on the north american continent. But that respect does not go as far as wanting to give them all our elk hunting...
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-05-14 AT 01:36PM (MST)[p]Hey, look at the bright side. If we get enough of them we won't have to hunt big game at all! Look at the time and money it would save. It's sure a good thing that we have all those smart people telling us what's good for us! Yessir, those eco-elites certainly know what's best for us!

Yes the wolf is here, and it's true that nothing we can do will change that. How and why wolves arrived is all pizz under the bridge. Sure we have State control as long as we salute the Feds and don't upset their apple-cart.
It still doesn't change the fact that for every single elk killed by a wolf it's one less that a sportsman can. They impact the game! It's an undisputed FACT and I don't like the fact that wolves were introduced. Period.
Will I deal with them? No choice since someone else made that decision for me (in their infinite GD wisdom). Will I hunt them? sure. Will I hunt big game around them? Sure. Have they been a negative influence and a detriment to big game hunters? Sure

I cannot see why so many "hunters" defend the wolf. It make ZERO sense. FACT

Zeke
 
>Piper,
>
>You and a couple more here
>are what we call NAMbies,
>short for Zombies.

How is NAMbies short for Zombies? It's the same number of letters.
 
4100,

Trapping wolves is not allowed in NM or AZ. It would damn sure be nice if we could. You will go to jail quicker and longer for killing a Mexican wolf than you will a human being. That is how backwards this whole program is. I do not hate wolves but do however think they don't have a place here in scattered desert, dry habitat Sky Island mountains. Also I like grizzlies but the habitat is too human populated and not big enough wilderness areas therefore the habitat needed for their survival is too fragmented for them to be here.

But of course Piper, you must have had a hose running from your pipers into the cab of your pkup and are suffering from carbon dioxide overdose. I thought it was CO and WA that legalized pot. Go back to your garden Piper!
 
wolfer,

For one, wolves clean up the mess human hunters leave behind after season. Many wounded and wasted game are utilized by them. There's a good case to made that stronger, faster, and smarter big game animals are left to reproduce with wolves on the landscape. There's also a tropic cascade effect that takes place with wolves on the landscape where more variety of creatures exist than pre wolf. All things in moderation are good.

I too would rather have wolves for competition than a pack of outfitters. At least I can shoot the wolf if I see it.


I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
Zek, I live at ground zero for wolves. We still have big game hunting, but it's a lot different than when the Ranching interests in Montana got together and passed a new law for wildlife management. This single piece of legislation has been more responsible for the demise of elk populations in Montana than all the predators combined.

If we killed every single lion, bear, and wolf off today we would not be able to build the herds. Not one more elk. The law won't allow it.

Every elk a lion, bear, coyote, fence, car, train etc. kill are one less for hunters to take too. Are predators not entitled to some of the game? We're conduction a three year study on elk predation and calf recruitment here in the Bitterroot valley. Fences had taken as many calves as the wolf. Got to love it when a rancher strings 5 strands 5 feet high or better.

The fact that some humans think they are totally entitled to everything on this planet and no other species is worthy is boring me to death.

Wolves are neither villain nor saint. They do what wolves do without much thought process or emotion. Humans are the ones that kill for fun. I read in the paper almost monthly how the Game wardens have another string of illegally killed game animals to solve. It all adds up.




I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
NAMbies=Zombies

4100,

We to live at ground zero X2 with the government zombies and the radical zombies running rampant.

Come help us control them! They make traps that are more humane and don't cut off all circulation. I don't think its legal to shoot them yet but getting closer every day.
 

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