YNP Wolf Expert

Hiker of the Woods

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http://www.mtpioneer.com/2014-January-Top-Yellowstone-Expert.html

Top Yellowstone Expert Takes on the Wolf Critics
Speaks to ?Non Native Subspecies? Charge and ?Surplus Killing?

01/05/14

Recently, the Montana Pioneer spoke with Doug Smith, Yellowstone National Park Wolf Project Leader and Senior Biologist at the Yellowstone Center for Resources, about the nature of the wolves introduced to Yellowstone National Park in 1995, including the ?non native subspecies? charge advanced by critics, and about ongoing research on wolves in the park.

MP: What were the genetic sources of wolves introduced into YNP?where did the existing wolf population originate?

DS: Forty one wolves were introduced to YNP in 1995. There were 14 in 1995 from Alberta, and 17 in 1996 from British Columbia, and 10 in 1997 from near Choteau, Montana. We have genetic evidence that some of those wolves went on to breed. So, 10 of the wolves that were introduced were from Montana, and 31 were from Canada.

MP: What were the main characteristics that were different between the wolves from Canada and the wolves that pre-existed here in Yellowstone, say 150 years ago? Is that known?

DS: Not really. All we have are skulls to judge it from. What we know from studying the skulls are that the wolves are essentially the same. The Canadian wolves were about 7 to 8 percent larger than the pre-existing wolves of Yellowstone. Seven to eight percent is within the variation of size difference found in wolf skulls all over North America, so the difference is statistically insignificant. It is important to compare apples to apples, so-to-speak. Pups and immature animals are smaller, and males are about 20 percent larger than females, at full size. It is important to compare similar age and gender skulls to each other. So comparing the handful of skulls that were preserved here as museum samples with over 150 skulls of wolves that have died here since they were introduced, the skulls are essentially the same, but the ones from Canada are slightly bigger.

Taxonomically (classifying in categories such as genus, species, and subspecies), you get differences between species when there are limitations on their ability to mix genetically. Wolves are stopped by nothing. They will cross mountain ranges, rivers, even pack ice. That's how good this animal is at moving around. So what we have is this constant intermixing of genes that prevents them from becoming really different subspecies. Wolves origin-ated in North America a couple of million years ago. When glaciers connected Alaska and Russia, they crossed over into Russia. They got bigger over there. In the last 600,000 to 700,000 years differently evolved wolves have crossed back to North America in three waves. The remnants of the oldest wave of wolves returning to North America are now the most southern species, and also the smallest, Canis lupus baileyi, the Mexican wolf. The middle wave of evolved wolves returning to this continent from Asia are the gray wolves we have here now, and the most recent are the largest, the arctic wolves.

MP: Were the wolves introduced into YNP significantly different physically or behaviorally from the wolves that were here?

DS: The short answer is no. Wolves are ecological generalists. They can live on a variety of things. We looked for wolves that were previously exposed to bison and elk. The Canadian wolves had a small percentage of bison hair in their scat, but primarily elk and deer hair. We thought that was ideal, as that is the same diet?primarily elk and deer?as we have here. The available wolves from Minnesota had no experience with mountainous terrain or herds of elk or bison. We selected wolves from the same Rocky Mountain ecosystem, with the same kind of prey, to enhance the likelihood of the introduced wolves surviving. I want to clarify the misconception that larger Canadian wolves were preying on smaller American elk [thereby reducing the elk population inordinately]. In fact, the much smaller southwestern Mexican wolf brings down elk. The elk the Mexican wolves prey on in Arizona and New Mexico originally came from Yellowstone, as did the elk in Canada. The optimal number of adult wolves necessary to bring down an elk is only four, but a pair of wolves can also kill an elk.

MP: We hear reports that there were wolves already in Yellowstone that could have multiplied without reintroduction.

DS: There were no wolves here when we introduced the current wolves in 1995. There were no specially adapted wolves [as critics have claimed] in Yellowstone that did not run in packs, or use trails or roads, that didn't howl, and that preyed on small prey, unlike the wolves we have now. There has simply never been a wolf recorded anywhere that lives like that. Furthermore, there is no better bird dog for a wolf than a wolf itself. We had radio collars on all 41 wolves we released over a 3-year period. If there were extant wolves already on the landscape, they would have found them. The wolves we released never turned up any other wolves, dead or alive. And by the way, they rarely eat other wolves that they kill.

MP: Wolves killing other wolves is the main cause of wolf deaths in the park, correct?

DS: Yes, almost half of the 15 YNP wolves that died in 2012 were killed by other wolves. However, for wolves living outside the park, 80 percent of the wolf deaths are caused by humans, mostly by shooting them.

MP: How many wolves are in YNP now?

DS: Last year at the end of 2012 there were at least 83 wolves occupying YNP in 10 packs (6 breeding pairs). This is approximately a 15 percent decline from the previous three years when the numbers had stabilized at around 100 wolves. Wolf numbers have declined by about 50 percent since 2007, mostly because of a smaller elk population.

MP: Would the 1994 population of gray wolves that lived in Montana have naturally recovered, given the protection of the Endangered Species Act?

DS: That was a big opinion-based debate by wolf biologists at the time, led by Bob Ream of the University of Montana. In his opinion, wolves would have recovered given enough time?50, 60 or 70 years. Other people think they would not have made it. Yellowstone National Park and the five National Forests around it can be likened to a huge island. It's the most impressive wild land we have got in the lower 48, and some people say it's the most impressive temperate zone wild land in the world. But it's got an abrupt boundary to it. I frequently fly over here in an airplane, and at the boundary of a National Forest, it turns into a sea of humanity. And wolves are notoriously bad at getting through seas of humanity. Wolves get shot a lot. When we were dealing with a handful of wolves, maybe 40 to 60, how many of those would have been heading this way? So far, we have not yet documented a wolf coming from northwest Montana into Yellowstone. We have documented them coming from Idaho, but that's a lot closer and the linkages are better, primarily in the Centennial Mountains. Wolves don't do well over huge landscapes dominated by people. By introducing wolves they were legally not a fully protected species under the Endangered Species Act. People wanted to be able to shoot them when they got into livestock, which they could not have done if they were a fully protected species.

MP: Wolves from Idaho have now invaded the original Glacier National Park wolves, right?

DS: The Idaho wolf population is now fully connected to the northwest Montana wolf population. Interest-ingly, a study of historic wolf DNA from pelts and skulls shows that over 50 percent of wolf genetic diversity was lost when the continental United States population was reduced to a few hundred wolves in Minnesota. Wolves were the top carnivores in North America. Wolves evolved to adapt to the local conditions, and they will do so again.

MP: The tapeworm cysts spread by wolves that critics rail about, what risk to humans does this pose?

DS: The Echinococcus granulo sus tapeworm was already here. Wolves didn't bring it in. The coyotes, foxes and domestic dogs likely had it before wolves. The human health risk from tapeworms is almost nil. If anyone should have Echinococcus tapeworm it's me. I've handled over 500 wolves in my career. I take their temperature with a rectal thermometer. That's where the tapeworm eggs come out. I now wear rubber gloves, but I wash my hands in snow, then eat my lunch. I wouldn't worry much about it.

MP: What are the primary benefits and disadvantages of having wild ranging wolf packs in the Northern Rockies?

DS: The simplest way to answer that is that there is no question that wolves made people's lives more complicated, and that's a good reason not to have them. Some people love them, some people hate them, and wolves are a polarizing animal. People have to spend a lot of time dealing with the controversy that comes with wolves. Life is simpler without wolves. I admit that if you are a rancher, having wolves around is worrisome. I understand that it's not just the cows they kill; it's the sleepless nights. I think that's the best argument to not have them.
What's the ecological value of wolves? I don't know. It's a human dominated world. We control everything. So why do we need wolves? Landscapes look the way they do because of agriculture, forestry, hunting, mining, development?all those things trump things like wolves. So you really don't get huge ecological benefits of wolves outside of National Parks. In National Parks you do. So why have wolves on these huge landscapes where there are people? Good question. The best answer is, because people want them there. You know, there are a lot of people that don't like wolves. There is an equally large number that do like them, because living in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming is unique and different than living in places like Illinois, Iowa and Arkansas. You have grizzly bears, you have wolves, you have cougars. And that brings in a lot of tourism dollars. Wolves and grizzly bears are the two top attractions to Yellowstone. Idaho, Montana and Wyoming are perceived as being pristine, just because of the mere existence of the three large, toothy carnivores. It makes visiting or living here more valuable and a better experience. Economics are more important than ecology when it comes to carnivore populations in Yellowstone National Park.

Right now, it's as natural as it's ever been in Yellowstone Park. Now we have more predators than we have ever had, which means we have fewer elk, and fewer elk means we have all these other ecological benefits, like beavers and songbirds and fishes, and generally enhanced riparian habitat, because fewer elk means less browsing of riparian habitat. So it's a more balanced ecosystem. We only get that because we have natural densities of carnivores. As soon as you cross the park line, all the densities of those carnivores go down because humans manage them. And that is fine; it's not a criticism. The carnivores are on the landscape. That's the thing that the tourists like, but they are not at their normal densities that would occur if people didn't manage them.

MP: What about surplus killing by wolves [where, for example, ranchers report wolves killing or maiming a dozen sheep in one night]?

DS: Surplus killing by wolves doesn't really exist, per-se. We have watched wolves when they have killed more meat than they can immediately consume, and they always come back to finish the carcass unless they are spooked off by people. Hunting success rates for wolves are in the 5 percent to 15 percent range with elk. So they actually get about one in ten of the elk they go after. Eighty five percent to 95 percent of the time, the elk wins, and the wolves get nothing to eat. So, from an evolutionary perspective, if the wolves are not highly motivated to kill whenever they can, they will lose out. Of the 500 wolves I have handled, all across America, in the Midwest, Canada, Alaska, Yellowstone and Idaho, most of them are skinny beneath their beautiful fur. When I have felt their backbones and their pelvises, they usually are skinny. They are just getting by. The prey is better at getting away than the wolves are at killing the prey. So it is so hard to get dinner and when they do get a chance to kill, they kill. That's how you get so-called surplus killing, when the elk are weak and in deep snow, wolves will kill more than they can eat. Also, defenseless sheep will be killed in large numbers because the wolves can do so. But I would argue that if the rancher didn't come out the next day with a rifle, the wolves would eat all those sheep, even if it took them weeks to do so.

Wolves don't kill for the fun of it, when they are likely to get their head bashed in getting dinner. We have seen 15 or more wolves that have been killed by elk, bison, deer and moose. Wolves are risk averse. They don't want to try to kill something that's going to get their head bashed in or their stomach kicked in, but when it's easy, they will kill more than they can immediately eat, but those circumstances crop up pretty rarely. The wolves always cycle back to finish the carcass.

MP: What is the effect of wolves on the coyote population?

DS: Wolves kill coyotes when they approach wolf kills. Pre wolf-introduction, coyotes were living in packs in YNP, and that's something that's unusual. When there are wolves around, the coyotes pretty much live in pairs. Coyotes love coming in and stealing from wolves, and that got them killed. According to unpublished research, supposedly the coyote population dropped in half after the wolf introduction. Over 90 percent of the coyotes that are documented as being killed by wolves have been killed at wolf kill sites?they over estimated the wolves being meat drunk. So the coyotes quit running in packs, and went back to living in pairs, and became more wary around carcasses. The coyotes supposedly socially adapted to wolves, and their population went back to pre-wolf levels. This research is incomplete and inconclusive, but fascinating.

MP: Thank you, Doug. We appreciate this opportunity to present knowledge you have gained over the years about wolves, and at the same time address some of the contro-versies.

DS: Wolves are troublesome and controversial. I understand that. A lot of people don't like them, but a lot of people do like them, and they make money for a lot of people. What I am really after is to get as good a quality of information out there as possible, to help the debate to be a little bit better. The extreme anti-wolf person and the extreme pro-wolf person are always going to be problematic; they are never going to be happy. But this big group of people in the middle can come together on more than they think. If we can get an established group of facts about wolves correctly understood, I do think we can make progress in treating wolves just like any other animal, like a cougar, like a bear, like an elk. Sometimes and in some places their numbers need to be cut back, and just like any other form of wildlife, they need to be scientifically managed.
 
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When you go swimming in the ocean, it is very cold, and it makes my willy small
 
I have no problem with the 83 wolves inside Yellowstone park!

txhunter58

venor, ergo sum (I hunt, therefore I am)
 
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>
>
>
>
>When you go swimming in the
>ocean, it is very cold,
>and it makes my willy
>small


Hey ZIGGER!

Not Quite enough Z's!

ROOKIE!

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[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
Interesting that Mr Smith said all our lives would be better (less complicated) without wolves.
He's right, we are a human world now and humans need to and should manage animals.
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-15-14 AT 10:12AM (MST)[p]We are managing animals, wolves included.

I'd argue the one animal in need of the most management is people...and we arent doing worth a chit at that endeavor.
 
I agree Buzz, we are managing animals. Thanks

What do you mean by the second part of your post? Do you mean hunters? ...the human population in general? Development?

You must have something on your mind. Try to share without your usual distain, I'm just asking a question. I always like to hear your thoughts.

Zeke
 
www.skinnymoose.com/bbb/2010/03/10/panel-

Go to above link to read what the true experts have to say about wolves.

The Doug Smith so called expert interview is pretty much a biased biologist's opinion and in particular his assessment of the "surplus killing" is patently false. This guy has made a good living from the wolf program and seems to be bought and paid for by the pro wolf movement from the get go.
 
All animals kill for fun. Humans included. It's how animals become proficient in hunting. Watch baby lions will chase butterfly's and such. Wolves are no different. My wife's cat always leaves dead uneaten mice at the back door. It's natural for them to always be refining their skills as hunter. Surplus killing is a proven fact and happens all the time. Here is a link explaining it better than I can. http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surplus_killing
 
>All animals kill for fun. Humans
>included. It's how animals become
>proficient in hunting. Watch baby
>lions will chase butterfly's and
>such. Wolves are no different.
>My wife's cat always leaves
>dead uneaten mice at the
>back door. It's natural for
>them to always be refining
>their skills as hunter. Surplus
>killing is a proven fact
>and happens all the time.
>Here is a link explaining
>it better than I can.
>http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surplus_killing

First you can not compare a domesticated cat to a wild animal. Cats get plenty of food from humans that wild animals do not. Therefore cats have access to all the calories/energy they could ever need so chasing and killing other animals and not eating them is something the can afford to do. I 100% agree with the part in the article that wolves would continue to come back and eat off of several animals they kill at once if it was not for the presence of humans.

Second you can not use Wikipedia as a form of citation. No college, peer reviewed research paper, or professional business would ever except that. Try using Google Scholar if you are not paying for research paper from groups like JSTOR.
 
Unfortunately, the YNP wolf question and answer discussion forgets that elk, moose and deer etc. are just as much livestock to hunters as sheep and cattle etc. are to ranchers and farmers. Hunters put their elk, moose and deer etc. on the mountain/range just as surely and with just as much effort and cost as ranchers and farmers do their livestock.

If you are going to eat beef, some one has to grow and manage cattle, if your going to hunt elk etc., some one has to got grow and manage elk. These so called wild ungulates do not self-support, in spite of the illusions that they just ebb and tide with in the natural environment. The general, non-hunt public my think they do but hunters know better. My hell, Native Americans, to the best of the their ability, managed wildlife populations before we changed from a hunter/gather continent to an industrialized one.

As a hunter, I'm just as out of pocket if a wolf or any other predator kills and eats one of "our" elk as a rancher is out of pocket if he looses a sheep to a wolf.

If someone steals a cow, we charge them with a crime, if some one steals (poaches) an elk we charge them with a crime.

If a wolf kills a horse, the owner is pissed and rightfully so, if a wolf kills an elk, I'm just as pissed and rightfully so. At least the livestock can sometimes get reimbursement for his loss. If sportsmen loose and elk, to damn bad. No thanks.

I don't give a damn what they do in National Parks, if the majority want a few wolves, at the expense of elk, moose, deer and sheep etc. I guess the majority can have their wish and have wolves, but outside the park, they can't have my elk, moose, or deer, not one single one of them. Sportsmen put them on the mountain/range, they pay to keep them in a surplus for the purpose of hunting and harvesting, not to feed predators. Every elk in Utah and I think every other State has elk because sportsmen paid to move them originally from herds that were left in Yellowstone and then parlayed that few elk through the rest of the country. We have elk because we bought and paid for them, then and now.

If they continue to try to pretend we can have both, on the open range we will, without a doubt, loose our hunt-able population of elk, moose, and deer. Let's not!

DC
 
I know predators are a huge problem all over western states but they are not the only or largest problem for every deer and elk in the western U.S.

MT increases elk license numbers.
http://www.kpax.com/news/anterless-elk-licenses-numbers-increase-in-western-montana/#_

Overall, the elk population is healthy, with about 140,000 statewide, putting them at or above population objectives in 70 percent of the elk management units. But they'll also increase in some areas, such as HD 410, where the antlerless B licenses will double from 300 to 600. http://missoulian.com/news/local/fw...cle_28b47e2c-b698-11e1-801f-0019bb2963f4.html

Elk Population Doubles in SE MT.
http://billingsgazette.com/lifestyl...cle_228938b6-8dc6-5875-b2b8-b2b5256b6231.html
 
What I got out of that was wolves make good sense for in the park, but bad sense outside of it, and I agree.

Yelum

Theres logic, and theres women. They don't go together.
 
Its just too bad the wolf in little red riding hood wasn't a European bovine.
Because if you guys were as obsessed about domestic cattle as you are about wolves, we could have elk running out of our ears in this country.
 
Well.........it wasn't a European bovine and I'm willing to share the pasture with cattle but not with wolves. I can negotiate with the cattle men but I can't negotiate with a wolf.

Don't care if you think I'm obsessed, depressed, regressed, suppressed, processed, blessed or incested. You can want wolves, I can not want wolves. I don't believe your obsessed, depressed, regressed, suppressed, processes, blessed or incested, we simply have a difference of opinion. You can lobby for them, I can lobby against, and I do.

I don't waste time doing things I don't intend to be successful at, so I believe I'll win, before we're through. I am and will continue to be proactive. You certainly will do what you do, you're already aware that you don't my permission. I'm expecting you to fail, no offense intended, it's simply how it works in the real world.

DC
 
Everything seemed to be just fine before the reintroduction , why screw with success.

Wolves are the only animal in the world I'd kill the last one of if given the chance, with a smile. to say they're polarizing is an understatement.















Stay thirsty my friends
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-14 AT 08:31AM (MST)[p]No, but I'm trying to remove all of them from the lower 48. And, I believe a lot more wolves need to be removed from Alaska and Canada, to bring them in balance with the man made prey base in the far north.

Do I expect to see every wolf from the lower 48 removed? No, it's not likely possible nor necessary but, I'm working to that end because I believe if we don't attempt to accomplish that difficult objective we'll fall short of the level of reduction that needs to be made.

I do not want wolves just because they're a fascinating wild animal. I don't want sewer rats either, their a fascinating wild animal as well but wolves and sewer rats bring more problems than our current conditions can tolerate. I don't want to share my life, food supply, recreation, health, etc with either species, regardless of what someone else wants to share their environment with. Like I said, others can want what they want, and I get to want what I want. They'll work to secure their wants, I am working to secure mine.

My belief is, in time, we will have fewer wolves in the lower 48 that we do now, and the fewer the better, to the degree that I don't want any south of the 49th.

Did I answer your question, regarding my desires regarding wolves.

DC
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-14 AT 08:47AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-14 AT 08:47?AM (MST)

LAST EDITED ON Jan-16-14 AT 08:44?AM (MST)

I think we need to implement a "hunter introduction" Program inside Yellowstone...after all, Indians used to hunt there, right?

Initially, we'd knock back the numbers of wolves, then start limited hunts on ungulates. Controllable game management!

A much more "containable solution" in my opinion!

But, that would put Doug Smith out of a job!


Best of Luck,
Jeff
http://elkmtngear.com
 
I would feel a little better about wolves (sort of) if the non-hunting public who love wolves would pay a $1000 "wolf assessment" fee every year to support them instead of living off the back of sportsmen. If they love wolves, they should pay to help feed them.

Lord knows our F&G Departments could use the money.

And a lot of wolf lovers love wolves for the sole reason that they hurt ranchers and hunters. That pisses me off.
 
I agree, let the wolf lovers feed the wolves. butter them up and chain them to a tree.
















Stay thirsty my friends
 
I agree with Buzzh. The biggest problem we face is people management. I think the government should issue people tags just like pig tags in CA, five at a time over the counter. A few guys good at handling their weapons could do a lot of good in this country.
 
>Its just too bad the wolf
>in little red riding hood
>wasn't a European bovine.
>Because if you guys were
>as obsessed about domestic
>cattle as you are about
>wolves, we could have elk
>running out of our ears
>in this country.

Piper,

The ranchers whom brought in and still raise the european bovine own much of the prime habitat that elk depend on and have developed a tremendous amont of water out on the public lands that help support or elk and wildlife. I find that your statement might be a bit short sighted, if I read you right. Many ranchers make as much off the wildlife as they do cattle and have a prime interest in managing for healthy herds of wildlife. There are exceptions of course but most ranchers are good stewarts of the land and the wildlife. Cattle and elk can and do complement each other in proper utilization of their common habitat.

Both ranchers and elk hunters have a dog in the fight and thats why we have banded together to fight these so called wolf experts such as Doug Smith. Doug is a highly paid, bought off individual hired by the miscreant low lifes whom are pushing the wolf proliferation programs.
 
Stoney- The cattle are here, and your right, the ranchers usually own the bottomland and lots of water, and most landowners are good stewards of the land.

But the truth is that cattle are the biggest reason we can't have more elk, and I don't mean a few either, hundreds of thousands less elk.
Test and slaughter, that's coming, and they have already done it where I live. Read the long post about wolves, read about elk management plans, slaughter the elk with cow hunts, and let hunters blame it in wolves.

I grew up in Nevada, through a lot of misery and frustration they now have about 13 thousand elk in that state, along with 460 thousand domestic cattle, sound fair? Nevada is 87% public land, still sound fair?
NDOW is right now brainstorming ways to kill more elk in that state because they are "over objective", its a joke, and the joke is on sportsmen.

Its amusing to listen to people cry about wolves, lost hunter opportunity isn't even a drop in the bucket compared to the loss because of domestic livestock, heck in Nevada the ranchers wouldn't lose any grazing, they just don't want the elk.

The cow slaughters on Utah's Fish Lake and Wasatch hunt areas?
guess what that's about? listen to sportsmen cry, yet they don't even wonder why.

Buzz is right, if hunters don't show up and get involved in their own states, we are going to lose a lot more hunting opportunity, especially with the way the west is drying up.

Cry about wolves all you want, in reality, it ain't squat.
 
lumpy, Already knew your desires concerning wolves. Now you have answered some questions I had about your intelligence. mtmuley
 
We're both happy then, me with with my intelligence and you with your new knowledge. Isn't it nice when we can have a mutually beneficial coming together?
DC
 
>I agree Buzz, we are managing
>animals. Thanks
>
>What do you mean by the
>second part of your post?
>Do you mean hunters? ...the
>human population in general? Development?
>
>
>You must have something on your
>mind. Try to share without
>your usual distain, I'm just
>asking a question. I always
>like to hear your thoughts.
>
n>
>
.
That means all of Washington DC politics and California Liberals
 
yup, those Washington DCers and California liberals are the ones that are forcing the cow elk slaughters, yupsee daisy.
 
Piper,

When the west was setttled, buffalo were remove and meat hunters killed off elk, deer and other wildlife to supply the miners and railroad builders. The sod busters and big cattle and sheep ranchers took over the plains and mountain ranges.

In 1905, Forest Reserves (precursor of today's US Forest Service) were established by Teddy Roosevelt. The un-appropriated (lands not homesteaded) both under the control of the USFS and also the Dept. of Interior Bureau of Land Management (BLM), starting in the 1930's were taken out of open range and grazing allotments were estabalished and fencing started, dividing up these un-appropriated lands among the homsteaders (livestock grazers) as part of their historical use of these lands.

Thus started the management of the so called public lands that you and most other hunters' want, unfettered access and use of exclusively (at least thats what you indicate) for hunting much larger herds of wildlife especially elk which are a grazer primarily and are in direct competition with livestock.

Every state manages their wildlife and especially elk differently, but are required to do so in conjunction with Forest Service, BLM and State land agencies. These agencies have long standing obligations in managing these lands and things have and are changing gradually and in some cases drastically, in view of livestock grazing numbers allowed today.

In New Mexico almost all livestock grazing in Wilderness areas has been removed and on the National Forest here in the Gila there are currently only about half the permitted cattle numbers grazing as there were 30 years ago. In the meantime when the elk were re-introduced in the 1960's their numbers have exploded. Not only in the Gila but state wide. NM now has between 80 and 90 thousand elk coming from basically nothing. NM for the most part is taking care of the landowners and public lands grazers, issuing landowner permits which can be used both for private lands only or both private and unit wide on the Forest and BLM lands. These landowner permits have provided and incentive for these landowners to manage for both the wildlife and cattle and has been a win win situation.

Piper you enjoy the highest standard of living of any where in the world and the cost of food as a percentage of your total income is smaller than anywhere else in the world. Why do you think this is? The west supplies a big share of the cattle going into the feedlots for to be slaughtered. Livestock grazing on public lands utilizes a renewable resource and produces a great economic value to the health of the total economy of rural America. Receipts from livestock are the biggest part of the gross revenues a big share of the western state's counties.

Piper, wolves were removed from the western landscape in the lower forty eight for a reason. Wolves have and are having an alarming effect not only on our wildlife but on these hard working livestock grazers and the resulting domino effect on these local economies that rely on livestock and hunting and outfitting. Wolves harm, livestock benefits, our local economies.

Yes Piper you don't seem to grasp the whole picture here. You seem to be just as bad as the radical environmentalists that want all livestock grazing from the vast public lands stopped. Do you think that they will let you hunt this utopian dream of yours, of huge elk herds? I doubt it. After all they are the ones running the wolf program.

Oh, and these settlers and nasty old livestock ranchers developed a huge, huge amount of water out on the public land that has enabled these elk herds to multiply.
 
lumpy, I aplogize for that remark. Uncalled for. I do however, believe that you and anyone else that thinks wolves will ever be eradicated again are living in a fairytale world. mtmuley
 
We may never eliminate terrorist either, but we try.

There is room in the west for cattle and game if properly managed, and they aren't always I admit. the proper managment of wolves was attained as well, until the reintroduction.

The only way in my opinion to deal with the wolf lovers is to oppose them 100% at every turn, because I assure you they will oppose hunters at every turn. maybe the best we can hope for is to meet in the middle, if that's so fighting is the only way to even achieve that position.

I sit on a irrigation district board fighting the fisheads all the time. what I have learned with these fanatics is they won't be happy until they have everything. compromise isn't in their vocabulary, I liken them to al Qaeda.












Stay thirsty my friends
 
sixpack - You hit the nail on the head. The fanatics push, push and push and take a quarter of an inch because we always say "Well its just a little concession and I'm tired of the aggravation". Next thing you know we are a foot off and wondering how we got there. If we push back by demanding the total eradication of the wolf in the lower 48, we might just get back to the agreed upon population objective.

Down here in AZ, the wolfies wanted to have 100 wolves in the Blue Range Wolf Recovery Area. The feds have spent over $23 million and can't reach the objective. The original plan calls for wolves that get outside of the BRWRA to be trapped and returned or killed. Now they a "proposing" (read jamming down our throats) the wolves be re-introduced into units 22 and 23 and then be allowed to naturally disperse into the area designated as suitable wolf habitat, which happens to be the entire state of Arizona south of I40.

Started with no wolves, then limited to 400 square miles, and now trying to be virtually unlimited. The feds didn't even schedule a public hearing in AZ for the "proposed" change. The original hearings to determine what would happen in AZ were scheduled for Denver, Albuquerque and Sacramento. Finally Sen Jeff Flake bitched about the obvious railroad job and the feds scheduled a meetng in AZ.

If the wolfies want to push that hard, we need to push back harder. It amazes me that the feds believe they can dictate what happens to the locals but if we enacted a wolf hunt without their blessing, they would be on us like a wolf on an elk.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-17-14 AT 09:41PM (MST)[p]Stoney- I had hopes that I didn't have to hear all that kind of bull Sh#t, but I did. The forest reserves were started in 1891 under president Harrison and we don't have the highest standard of living in the world. But lets cut through the BS and not talk about utopia and that kind of silly stuff.

Elk and livestock, its a matter of balance and as I pointed out in a few examples, its not always very good for sportsmen,
in my opinion anyway.
Sportsmen have to show up and show concern and fight for what they want out of the public land, if we don't we get steamrolled, I have been right there when its happened.

Public land belongs to all Americans, Ranchers, sportsmen, wolf lovers and wolf haters alike, so fight for what you want and what you feel is important, because competing interests will win if you don't.
I know what's important to me and my family, and I know what matters and makes a difference.

Your free to google any of the facts I have mentioned, Elk numbers and cattle numbers in Nevada or whatever.
 
Piper,

I get on the offensive pretty quick when people start trying to blame everything on the public lands rancher.

There has been a big debate over just exactly what rights, priviliges and ownership rights these ranchers have in their government grazing allotments.

You are right, the ownership of the public lands or as I like to call them government managed lands (mis-managed might be a better term), is like a bundle of sticks. You have the livestock grazer, wood cutter, hunter, birdwatcher, hiker, atv enthusiast and so forth, all whom have some kind of a right to this vast acreage.

The rancher has a more vested interest than most in their grazing allotments. They have huge investments in fencing, corrals and water systems. Some of this is paid for through a return of part of the grazing fees into Agency Range Improvement funds. Some of the points in my earlier comments were to emphasize the historic significance to when and how the FS and BLM split up the unfenced government controlled rangeland. The IRS puts a value on the Grazing allotments and the market place also puts a value on the grazing allotments and they are bought and sold on the open market. The FS does not regulate them that way and more or less only as a priviledge. Public lands ranchers are under the heavy thumb of big government and the last twenty years has seen a significant decrease in the alloted numbers of cattle FS offficails are allowing on FS lands. You are seeing the lowest number of cattle on the public land than any time since before early day settlement. Most States have had huge increases in elk numbers and it has been a learning curve to say the least on how to make room for the maximum number of elk that can co-exist with cattle out on the public land.

I don't know how Neveda does things but the NM Game Dept. takes care of hunters and ranchers interests here and they get better every year. Just a few years ago, many of these public lands ranchers and landowners didn't like the elk. The almighty dollar does wonders for proper range amangement to equal out cattle and wildife. I don't hear any ranchers in this part of the world complaining about too many elk.

I may have read you wrong somewhat Piper but you can call me out on BS all you want but you need to get a more historically correct backup to your claims of the public using the Federal lands. Cattle and elk compliment each other, period. Wolves are having an ever increasing toll on many of our elk herds. I have seen nothing but more elk and less cattle here and in NM & AZ.

Back to the thread. We don't need the wolves and Doug Smith is a biased well paid wolf lover whom darn sure has the surplus killing issue awash with stupidity.
 
Stoney, Doug Smith sounded like he knew what he was talking about to me, I didn't detect an obvious bias.


There are wolves right around where I live, I can still buy 3 over the counter elk tags, and they are good in the very same areas the wolves are in.


I realize that we all know more about our local issues, but things like the elk management plans in Montana and Nevada really bother me, as I see the sportsmen really losing out, and being involved in those Nevada plans years ago really opened my eyes about what goes on.

Sportsmen don't like to talk about elk management plans much though, they falsely believe the Game and fish departments or someone else will speak for them I guess? you can even tell by the silence when I post anything about that issue on here.
Its taboo I guess, but mention wolves and most hunters go bananas.
 
>yup, those Washington DCers and California
>liberals are the ones that
>are forcing the cow elk
>slaughters, yupsee daisy.



They come into wyoming and feel that wyoming residents should be like california. Thus the reason I don't go to Jackson anymore.
 
mtmuley,

Go to my post #10 above and open the link and there is a pretty in depth explanation and discussion by wolf experts on surplus killing. This would be in the true realm of scientific evidence.

As a personal experince here in the Gila there are a few incidences of wolf surplus killing or what ever the scientific terms are. One incidence was where a herd of about 20 cow elk with their 20 claves were hit by a pack of wolves and in one night they killed over half of the calves and left them lay and never came back to eat on them.

Doug Smith, while sounding reasonable, the scientists in the above link and from what I have learned from historical accounts through the ages, totally refute his and the extremist wolf lovers continual rant about this subject.

This in my mind at least, makes Doug Smith's interview very suspect.
 
I just got done reading it. One guy is a whitetail expert, the other a "russian" wolf expert and the rancher seems full of crap. None of those people are wolf experts. The long discussion on the parasite issue was interesting. Guess we're all gonna die here in wolf country. I guess I should be worried as I was elbow deep in wolf guts when I killed mine. There's no doubt wolves have had an impact in places, but one has to be real careful about the "facts." I enjoyed reading it though. mtmuley
 
Stoney,

What about the landowners that legally kill dozens and dozens of elk and leave them laying?

Surplus killing or sport killing?

You're worried about a few wolves?

WOW!...and I mean WOW!

That was the case for Dominic Montoya, who owns a ranch near Ocate in northern New Mexico. Unable to drive out the elk, Montoya has been allowed to kill 33 elk so far this year.

In western New Mexico, Quemado-area rancher Narciso Baca has had similar problems and has killed 35 elk.

The elk tear up fences and eat crops.


The same article goes on to say how the carcasses are left to rot...

You have some major issues in New Mexico with landowners and elk...a fugged up system of transferable landowner tags, the taking of NR tags because of it, etc.

New Mexico is a model of "what not to do" in regard to elk management.

I'd spend your time worrying about elk management there...wolves arent even a blip on the radar screen of the mess New Mexico has created with their "management".
 
I believe Doug Smith when it comes to the surplus killing issue, there are lots of elk feedgrounds around here and that's not what happens.
The ranch manager that feeds elk at Black Butte feedgrounds here in Wyoming told us that the wolves haven't hurt the numbers of elk there at all, His words not mine.

He told us about one big male that stayed there all winter for a few years, he said that lone wolf killed every lame elk on the feed ground until they were gone and after that he killed any elk he wanted.
I never saw him but I used to see that big ones tracks in the fresh snow when I worked there for a few weeks, they were big and impressive, he limped because you could see how one leg dragged in the snow.
 
Who cares about surplus killing, I don't care if the wolves kill so they can mount the head on their den wall. dead is dead.

The wolf huggers goal is to have the wolves take the hunters role in game managment. pure and simple. as a hunter what you need to decide is how much of that role are you willing to give up without a fight and how hard will you fight.

I'm not sure how much I will give up but I know I'm not going to give an inch they don't take against my will. it's discouraging to know how many hunters are pacifists or even collaborators on the most important issue to sport hunting since TR died.




Stay thirsty my friends
 
BuzzH,

Just a drop in the bucket as Narciso Baca was years ago and I hadn't even heard about Dominic Montoya. The Game Dept. must not have tried very hard to help him out as the Jennings Bill was set up so to avoid such trajedies. Narciso's case was his greed in wanting more landowner permits and the Game Dept. refused him.

I say baloney to your assesment of NM's elk management. We have come from practically no elk in the 60's and 70's in the southern part of NM and the herds have increased and spread ut tremendously. Unit 15 had no elk. No elk in most of the now famous Gila units. Now look at it. Hunting opportunity has increased tremendously. The only problem is that demand is growing faster then the elk can grow with no help from our wolves here. A low estimate of 75 wolves between here and eastern Az are taking 100 times the few elk you speak of that the Jennings Bill ranchers have taken. Many of our ranchers have suffered tremendous livestock losses due to the wolves.

mtmuley,

Dr. Valerius Geist is one of the most knowledgeable scientists on wolves in the world, bar none. The Russian Wolf expert also is one of the most knowledgeble wolf experts in the world. Heck he rancher is perhaps the most knowledgeable as he has seen first hand what these wolves have done to him and his neighbors. He is in the trenches. Get real. Doug Smith is a bought and paid for Wolf Lover and not nearly as worldly of an expert as the guys on the panel link are. Doug provides no scientific evidence that I can see other than his feeble claims that "human activity' kept the wolves from returning.

Piper, Maybe you are right in the sense that Doug Smith cites human activity. Do not humans put out hay on the WYO. Elk Refuges to the elk every day or so, and human activity is ever present. My example in my other post, were elk out in the wild with little to no human presense here in the Gila. By the way I have clients whom were (retired now) the manager and assistant manager of the Jackson Elk Refuge and they sure paint a different picture than your feed yard connection.

Wolves are ruthless maimers and killers. Believe me they don't just kill to eat and they are oportunistic and just don't eat the weak and the sick. More Pro wolf propaganda. It seems like we have a fair share (wolf propaganda) here on this site and who would have thought it.
 
mtmuley - I'm surprised you would portray Dr. Geist as a whitetail expert. He is widely described as the worlds foremost expert on mule deer. The first book I ever read on mule deer was his best selling book, Mule Deer Country. He also wrote several others, Wild Sheep Country, Antelope Country: Pronghorns: The Last Americans, Buffalo Nation, Mountain Sheep & Man in the Northern Wilds, Moose: Behavior, Ecology, Conservation and, oh yeah, Elk Country. The source of the information in his books comes from is his direct observation of each species as a scientist. He lived in Banff National Park with his wife for years studying ungulates and also had the oportunity to observe wolves while doing his ungulate work. His work is published in 16 encyclopedias and has been published in numerous languages. His books are not hunting books or "how to's". His work is strictly scientific observation in the true sense. He only publishes facts he has observed, not anecdotally, but as part of a focused study on a particular trait or behavior that could be repeated a statistically significant number of times. The man knows more about elk, mule deer and the North American wolf than just about every hunter in the country, combined.
 
Ummmm...Never said who I thought was a whitey expert. That rancher never saw 56 wolves out his front window. Carry on. mtmuley
 
Who was on the panel?

Jim Beers - Wetlands biologist
Robert Fanning - Founder of the Friends of the Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd and stock broker
Will Graves - Author of "Wolves in Russia"
Bill Hoppe - Rancher
Dr. Delane Kritsky - Past president of the Rocky Mountain Conference of Parasitologists
and Dr. Geist , the ungulate expert.

So which one is the whitey expert if not Dr. Geist? Beers, Fannning or Dr. Kritsky?

Just sayin'.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-21-14 AT 06:37AM (MST)[p]You tell me. I didn't specify, but you guys sure knew who the whitetail expert supposedly is. And no wolf experts on the panel. mtmuley
 
This might help explain a little on why and how the wolf introduction has happened here in the lower 48. I'm sure you can find other great information on the USFWS website. Here are a few paragraphs from a great book on wolves.

Quote from book:

Mech, D.L. and Boitani, Luigi. 2003. Wolves. Behavior, Ecology, and Conservation.
(Pages 222-224)

The biological species concept (BSC) maintains that the unifying characteristic of species is reproductive independence or isolation from other species (Mayr 1963; O?Brien and Mayr 1991). However, reproductive isolation is difficult to assess for populations living in different areas, and hybrid zones may form between populations thought to represent distinct species. These problems with the BSC have been the subject of a long discussion (reviewed by Hull 1997).

Operationally, species are often defined as morphologically and behaviorally distinct entities (e.g., Nowak 1979); however, the level of morphological distinction separating various taxonomic units (species, subspecies, populations) may be somewhat arbitrary and dependent on the measurements taken by the researcher. Moreover, morphologically distinct populations may interbreed (reviewed by Barton and Hewitt 1985, Harrison 1990, and Arnold 1997). Consequently, purportedly more objective definitions have been developed, such as the phylogenetic species concept, which defines species according to diagnosable characteristics reflecting a common ancestry (e.g., McKitrick and Zink 1988; Vogler et al. 1993).

Combining elements of the biological and phylogenetic species concepts, Avise and Ball (1990) suggested the subspecies be defined as populations that are generally allopatric (live in different areas) and have a series of concordantly divergent traits, but may interbreed if barriers to dispersal are removed. In contrast, species are defined by a similar suite of concordantly divergent traits, but do not widely interbreed if barriers to dispersal are removed.

Two problems are apparent when applying these definitions to wolflike canids. The first is that wolves disperse over great distances and across topographic barriers to find mates and territories (see Mech and Boitani, chap. 1 in this volume). As a result, rates of gene flow are high, so wolf populations are rarely isolated long enough to produce reciprocal monophyly in their mitochondrial sequences. Even rapidly evolving microsatellite loci may not show much differentiation between populations. Rather than populations being discrete, a limited pattern of genetic differentiation with distance may be apparent (Forbes and Boyd 1996; see below).

For this reason, the division of wolves into discrete subspecies and other genetic units may be somewhat arbitrary and overly typological (conforming to a specific ideal type). In reality, wolves are better viewed as a series of intergrading populations having subtle or undetectable patterns of clinal genetic change (Lehman et at. 1991; Roy, Geffen et al. 1994; Forbes and Boyd 1997). Importantly, populations may differ in attributes important to fitness in spite of being connected by high rates of gene flow (e.g., T.B. Smith et al. 1997). Therefore, units for conservation should be based on fitness-related characters or their surrogates, rather than on largely neutral changes in mitochondrial or microsatellite loci (Candall et at. 2000).

A second problem stemming from high rates of gene flow concerns the importance of hybridization. The width of a hybrid zone reflects dispersal distance and the degree of selection against hybrids (Barton and Hewitt 1985). Therefore, if selection against hybrids is weak and dispersal distances are large, interspecific hybridization can affect the genetic composition of a population over a wide geographic area. As discussed below, independent genetic studies suggest hybridization between coyotes and wolves and their hybrids over a wide area in southeastern Canada. As a consequence of hybridization, physically distinct populations may actually represent hybrids containing various proportions of genes from otherwise distinct species (see Figure 8.2 below on page 224). The presence of such introgressed populations greatly confounds taxonomic and conservation efforts (Jenks and Wayne 1992; Wayne and Brown 2001, 145-62).

I would highly recommend reading through chapter 9 Wolf Evolution and Taxonomy. Figure 9.2 has a great map of original geographic distribution of wolves in North America. Take a look at that map and put the few paragraphs with it from up above and that might help explain why and how the re-introduction of wolves has happened here in the lower 48.
 
The Rocky Mtn Gray Wolf was/is reintroduced as an nonessential experimental population under 10(j). Nonessential under ESA already asserts the population is not required for the continuation of the species (so arguments of they aren't endangered are moot because that's what 10j already means as nonessential). Experimental populations means under 10j that species needs only to meet the probable historic range (rather than proven beyond any doubt range) of a species. This threshold is also determined by Law at the sole discretion of the Secretary of the Interior under 10j. Also know subspecies of wolf very much overlapped, it would be a rare thing to say only one subspecies existed in the NW or Rocky Mtns regions so that argument would never hold up either of only one existed and therefore this "new" one is invasive. A positive side of 10j is it does not require a Section 7 to take (kill or relocate) individual animals if their removal likely would do no harm to the recovery. This is why a wolf can be taken within ESA designated habitats without breaking the normal Section 7 ESA Laws.

Not advocating the program (they need to be managed better) but there are so many posts claiming to know ESA but in truth they are not accurate at all to the actual Law.
 
For those that think these wolves brought a new parasite to the lower 48; I suggest going to "Google Scholar" and do all the searching. More information on there than a person can read in their lifetime. Google Scholar is WAY WAY Better source compared to Hunting Blogs, Hunting magazines, extremist groups, etc.... Here is just a few link to show everyone the parasite is not new.

http://pubs.rsna.org/doi/full/10.1148/radiographics.20.3.g00ma06795

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1824108/pdf/canmedaj00737-0030.pdf

http://www.ajtmh.org/content/67/3/296.full.pdf

http://www.jstor.org/discover/10.2307/3796110?uid=3739560&uid=2&uid=4&uid=3739256&sid=21103379051113

http://www.amjmed.com/article/0002-9343(58)90014-7/abstract

http://journals.lww.com/amjmedsci/C...Echinococcus_Disease_in_North_America.14.aspx

http://www.ajtmh.org/content/26/4/732.short
 
Blacktail_Slayer,

You have outlined much of the wolf propagation correctly8.

The so called Mexican Gray Wolves we are putting up with in the SW were on the experimental-non-essential status under which they were placed here and they have been tweeking the 10j rule for several years whereby modifying the original promises and intent of the program. Now the are heavily into the comment process in throwing out the previous designations and rules and putting them on the Endangered Species listing and basically stop all problem wolf controls plus they are pushing and probably will get a very large expansion of the Mexican wolf recovery areas. They also have plands to go from 100 to ta much higher number in order to obtains recovery.

This is called moving the goal posts. It will be years and maybe never that we will be able to manage their numbers by hunting or any other means.

It has been almost 14 years now and up over $600,000 per wolf for the 75 supposed to be here now. Mony is no object.
 
According to the USFWS, the number one cause of mortality in the Mexican gray wolf is SSS. They don't have enough money or wolves to turn that around. They will probably want to put Canadian timber wolves down here next to help take up the slack. I mean after all there is basically no difference, a wolf is a wolf and they all have a 90% DNA match. Kinda like people and chimpanzees.
 
I've been hunting elk and deer in MT for a long time.
It's clear that elk and deer and permits and opportunities for them have dropped way off in areas the Canadian transplanted wolves have taken over.
Also true that elk in MT are doing very well in foothills and areas East where the Canadian wolves haven't populated, yet.
 
I am no expert. My experience is limited to living in elk/wolf country. I have put my own tag on eight wolves, and I have assisted in four others. I take an elk every year with a bow.
I spend nearly a hundred days a year on the ground. and regularly visit with local big game biologist.

Our big game numbers, and our hunting heritage are at stake. A large portion of Idaho elk management areas are below objectives. These areas are also those known to have high populations of wolves. Even more troubling is the trend of more units being added to the below objective list each year. If you make yourself familiar with cow/calf ratios in these units that are below objective, you find that they are not improving. If you make yourself familiar with cow/calf ratios in units that are meeting objectives, and have had wolves for a few years you see that these units will soon be in trouble.

If you hunt big game in Idaho, consider joining this organization that is having an effect on the ground.
These guys have found a way to increase wolf harvest.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=urK2Cz-0wV4

www.foundationforwildlifemanagement.org

www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TLdCG7wvRE
 
My wolf harvest would increase too if someone else paid for it. Maybe I'll start my own management organization. I need a new wolf rifle. mtmuley
 
mtmuley,

I think if we all work together instead of against each other it would help the wolf management issues.

Your basic bad mouthing grass roots wolf management organizations is akin to me accusing you of being a dues paying memeber of PETA. I don't think you are but you sure have a funny take on the wolf engineering project which is more designed to engineer people and not the majestic poor little, so called endangered wolf.
 
What is the wolf engineering project? You a card carrying member of the aforementioned "management" organization? mtmuley
 
It is called Government Terrorism. The radical enviromentalist/wolf lovers have aided and abbeted the US Government through a continual string of lawsuits to force the US Fish And Wildlife Services' hand in making them shove the wolves down the citizens' collective throats, whom live on the land here, make our living here and raise our families here. For you to castigate or admonish those of us whom are so vitally affected by these wolf programs isn't quite right, or that's my take on what you have posted.

No I'm not a member of the aforementioned "management organization" but from what I have read it might behoove you to join it. I am however a member of SCI, NRA, RMEF, Coalition of AZ/NM Counties for Economic Growth among many others.
 
stoney, maybe you should move to Texas? some of its a lot like Arizona, plus its all private land and its well managed.
That's the problem with public lands and wildlife, they are owned by everybody, regardless of whether those people think the same as us or not
 
3252dsc00354.jpg
stoney, I didn't castigate or admonish anyone. Take from my posts what you will. Here's how I like wolves. Big male from where I elk hunt. Shot an elk in the same area. Joining the aforementioned group probably won't behoove anyone except those that started it. Take care, mtmuley
 
I do belong, I have never taken money for harvesting a wolf.

This organization has caused trappers in the Panhandle Region of Idaho to harvest more wolves than the entire rest of the state combined. This means conserving more elk than the rest of the state combined.

Trappers trap for money, we are just making it more appealing for them.

It only behooves those interested in elk, deer, and moose to join, no one else is doing anything to effect wolf numbers.

Last season wolf harvest in the Panhandle increased 18%. In the same season no other Idaho region had an increase in harvest. In fact the rest of the state had a decrease in wolf harvest of 20%.

This link is IDFG wolf harvest report, F4WM has been in the Panhandle for the last 2 seasons.

http://fishandgame.idaho.gov/public/hunt/?getPage=121
 
>It is called Government Terrorism. The
>radical enviromentalist/wolf lovers have aided
>and abbeted the US Government
>through a continual string of
>lawsuits to force the US
>Fish And Wildlife Services' hand
>in making them shove the
>wolves down the citizens' collective
>throats, whom live on the
>land here, make our living
>here and raise our families
>here. For you to castigate
>or admonish those of us
>whom are so vitally affected
>by these wolf programs isn't
>quite right, or that's my
>take on what you have
>posted.



You could say the same thing about everyone that lives with anything listed under the ESA. You would not believe what a butterfly or flower listed on the ESA can do to a landowner. If you don't think the ESA is right than ask congress to change it. I don't like the lawsuits anymore than you but it is the crazy world we live in.
 
Hunting success rates for wolves are in the 5 percent to 15 percent range with elk. So they actually get about one in ten of the elk they go after. Eighty five percent to 95 percent of the time, the elk wins, and the wolves get nothing to eat.

This is a a smoke screen and means nothing. How many elk die every year per wolf is the salient question, not how many attempts it takes a wolf to kill an elk.
 
85-90% So how many are wounded and still get away to die later, just like hunting some get away to die later. What that %.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
mtmuley, good job, very nice wolf.

Blacktail_Slayer

How many friends and neighbors of your's have been directly affected by the overreach of the Agencies' in administering the ESA? Nothing can or will be done about the ESA anytime soon. It is being tested all the time and Congress will never act on it because it is too big of a hot potato.

All over the US and even Texas is being adversley affected by the extremists and their radical agenda's. Here our economy has been devastated first by the so called Mexican Spotted Owl, that was a farce. How about the Leopard Spotted Frog, that is a comple sham and farce. How about the Spike Dace And Loach Minnow, these harmful designations by the USFWS and the ESA are a farce. The Willow Fly Catcher is a farce, the Goshawk is a farce, the so called Wolf re-introduction is a big farce. and on and on. These programs have all affected the lives and economies here in this part of the west. Like Piper says it is mainly because of all the public land and how it is managed and will be managed into the future.

As for a butter fly or a plant well they have thousands of them listed and many are being used to stop or curb all human use as we speak.

Go to the Biological Diversity Center and check them out. They are one of the biggest driver's forcing the USFWS's hand at every trun and doing it by litigation and we the taxpayer are paying them hundred's of thousands of dollars to do it.

Pre64, It is not just what the wolves kill on our elk herds, it is all of this harrassment and chasing that have extreme effects on weight loss, especially during the winter which is critical for elk survival, but also in breeding rates as a result of all this harrassment.
 
Pre64, It is not just what the wolves kill on our elk herds, it is all of this harrassment and chasing that have extreme effects on weight loss, especially during the winter which is critical for elk survival, but also in breeding rates as a result of all this harrassment.

Yup. He didn't mention the less tangible effects. I was taken with how the measurable was presented in a statistically friendly manner. "They are only successful 5 to 15 percent of the time." What a worthless evaluation.

As far as the ESA, its always about a bigger agenda. The protected species is just a vehicle to obtain another goal. The courts run the country.
 
The Canadian wolves are 100% successful at killing young fawns and elk calves. Cow elk heavy with calves are taken down and their calves eaten out of them while the cow struggles.
 
Or the ones that get away half eaten. These wolfs are developed by natural selection to chase caribou, our deer and elk are easy prey comparatively. Also we had two or three native grey wolfs in the lower 48, non of them were as big as the northern grey wolfs. And this expert is not a expert as he says coyotes lived in packs prior and they were not wolfs. No it has been documented that the wolfs in the lower 48 lived in small packs. So yes they were wolfs and your a JACKA$$!
 
>Or the ones that get away
>half eaten. These wolfs are
>developed by natural selection to
>chase caribou, our deer and
>elk are easy prey comparatively.
>Also we had two or
>three native grey wolfs in
>the lower 48, non of
>them were as big as
>the northern grey wolfs.



It is funny you say that. I wish I wrote down the title and author of a book back in the 30's or 40's. It listed location, weight, and skull size of wolves killed in Oregon before they were all wiped out. Guess what. They were the same size as the wolves we have now.

Here is another example. I know of game farms that have taken Roosevelt and Rocky Mountain elk and another farm that took huge bodied northern whitetail deer and smaller southern whitetail deer. They were all on the same diet on the farm and after three years all looked exactly the same.

Then there was the YNP wolf pack with 2 alpha males that mainly only hunted bison. It took 2 alpha males because it is not easy for a pack to kill bison year-round. One of those males was the largest wolf in the lower 48 states weighing in at 148lbs.
 
The crap posted by deerslayer88 and mnmthunting just goes to show what the average guy will believe about wolves. mtmuley
 
I guess my biology and botany books lied. Not trying to be a d bag but skull size only tells us one portion of the story. I understand diet has some to do with size of the animal, but genetics plays a roll. A skull can only tell us so much about an animal. For instance I have seen some small bodied bears with huge skulls, and then again I have seen some fat bears with tiny skulls. The best indicator would be genetics to say yes this is a distinct species that is not 100% the same genetically. I know genetics does not play into the roll 100% like I said but I have seen animals that looked like they had gotten away from a wolf and they are half eaten (wyoming), I have also read into the history of the wolfs and to me there is enough evidence to argue this. I am not against wolfs by any means, but I am against evnviromentalists with their F'ed up agendas and pushing their bs on us. That is why I can't stand my So Cal sister in law damn fruits they are down there. She thinks that no one should own guns and we should play ring around the rosie all day. I think my wife was switched at birth but that is another story.
 
>The crap posted by deerslayer88 and
>mnmthunting just goes to show
>what the average guy will
>believe about wolves. mtmuley

You don't know anything about me.
Easy to tell by your posts that these hunting forums are infiltrated by (Howling for Wolves)and other extremist groups.
Keep working at it mtmuley, see how long it takes for everyone catch on.
 
mtmuley is like a bisexual... he plays for both sides. He says he is a sportsman and wants hunting for our future generations, but he must hang around with wolf lovers and read to much of their wolf loving BS. In the end he will probably just end up being a fag!!!

Some of us do not need to read something from a so called expert to see the truth! Anyone with an objective, open mind can clearly see the truth. Wolves are destroying our hunting future in a lot of places. Not everywhere, true. Doug Smith has been bought and paid for by the wolf machine. You can NOT take what he says at face value. All it takes is for someone to watch an elk herd in March that has consistent wolf predation, when winter alone has taken it's toll on the herd. Then these wolf killing machines do what they do best, they kill, kill and KILL. Calves will die from pneumonia from being run and run, that is, the calves that are left. Hell, I have seen adult elk fall down the hill and roll from exhaustion un able to get up for awhile. The wolf will kill at will, and during this time of year they will kill way more than 1 out of 10 attempts more like 9 for 10. And regardless of what the experts will say, they kill way more than 2-3 times per week!!!

So mtmuley you can continue being a fag or you can open your eyes and stop thinking you got all figured out from killing one wolf. Do your self a favor and stop reading your information and go to the mountains in march and see for yourself....
 
Just a couple things and I'm gone.
First of all I am a Grey Wolf expert, been studying for about 30 years.

I know of Doug Smith, Doug is dedicated to the "Prey, Predator Balance". We should be able to figure it out that, that will leave out hunting.

I wish I had time to explain the politics behind the guy that is the project leader for the "wolf recovery" in YNP.
Just a hint, His resume did not have any hint anti Predator.
Lots of stuff on climate change, "All Natural or nothing", game populations should be controlled by the "prey predator balance" Again, it is anti hunting.

This thread is started by "anti hunting, pro wolf"

That's it, figure it out.
 
This thread, like most all wolf threads, is a joke.

For Christ sake, you have wolfhunter using terms like bisexual and fag...real professional there chief.

Guys like wolfhunter, they never bring any facts to the table, only what they supposedly "see"...which in my opinion is not much. Pretty tough to "see" much of anything from where these types have their heads buried. Pretty easy to sort out that facts must be in low supply when some start using words like fag and bisexual to further their "arguement".

mtmuley and a few others have their facts down. They understand the issue, and believe in the NAM and managing wolves like we manage elk, deer, lion, bears, furbearers, fish, and all other wildlife. Even though mtmuley has killed a wolf, hunts them regularily, and believes in management, he's rundown by the likes of wolfhunter. Unless you choose to deny the facts, the studies, the experts,...and claim wolves are to blame for everything...wolfhunter calls you a bisexual and a fag. LAME, and an absolute joke.

Wolves need to be managed just like all the other animals that the State has control over. The State Plans were adopted by the citizens of the States in question, and those plans are being implemented.

There is nothing more that needs to be done...this issue is solved, period.

As to the wolves killing all the elk, its pure BS. The Bitterroot elk collaring project has proven that lions are the leading predator of calf elk. The Idaho study has proven that black bears are the leading cause of calf mortality. The leading cause of calf mortality in YNP is grizzly and black bears.

Chitty elk management plans in Idaho, Montana, and Wyoming also have a negative impact on elk. Human hunters have a very significant impact on elk. Changing habitat has a tremendous impact in many areas (some for the better, lots for the worse). The list goes on and on.

Yet, wolfhunter continues to deny the facts...and claims that wolves are the only thing responsible for elk mortality.

That is a tired arguement of the uninformed...brought to you by the likes of Toby Bridges, Ryan Bensen, and Don Peay. All of whom, combined, dont have the first clue about wildlife management between them.


Oh, and wolfhunter, you arent the only person on planet earth that spends time in the woods. Lots of people do, myself included. Probably more than you, and by a landslide, at a minimum. I see elk mortality all the time, lions, bears, wolves, poaching, wounding loss, hit by vehicles, old age, winter kill, elk hung up in range fences, you name it.

Wolves are a small portion of the over-all elk mortality annually, and thats a fact that only the very misinformed will ever deny. Certainly no biologist worth their salt would claim otherwise.

Thankfully, the wolfhunter types of this discussion, they're the extreme fringe. They arent taken seriously by those that actually do make the management decisions. They seem content to throw their suckers in the dirt, stomp their feet, and hold their breath for an encore when presented with facts. While that might garner them some attention from the extreme fringe...its meaningless to those that are actually guiding management.

Wolves are here, they are never going to be eliminated, and they are going to be managed (successfully) via State Plans.

Those are the facts...period.
 
The bottom line is that the majority of wolf lovers are advocating for the complete elimination of hunting from the landscape. They view human hunting as an intrusion upon nature and not an integral part of nature. They refuse to acknowledge that human hunters have been a part of the North American landscape for well over 10,000 years which also roughly correlates to the amount of time that gray wolves have inhabited this continent.

They don't care if the wolves kill all the elk and then starve to death so long as it happens "naturally". They have this concept of nature that will magically find a sweet spot where predator and prey reach a balanced number that will sustain itself forever. They view wildlife management as "elk farming" on public land.

Too many people wolf lovers and haters fail to realize that sometimes letting nature take its course will not result in a utopia of abundant game but as shown by the journals of lewis and clark and other early explorers, large expanses of the west were void of wildlife.

Ultimately there is no way to have constructive discussion and reach compromise with many wolf supporters unless they make room for the continued use of wildlife as a resource for hunters. Most hunters I know are willing to live with wolves as long as states can manage their numbers but most wolf lovers are not willing to live with even a single hunter in the woods.
 
Good post mnmthunting, X2

mtmuley, haven't figured you out yet??

wolfhunter, correct info on the wolves for sure!

Damn I hate the bleeding heart so called wolf lovers. How depraved they must be to not see the obvious. Common sense my man,common sense! Doug Smith has neither common sense or abilty to admit the obvious. His subsistance killing theory holds water about like a seive with 44 mag holes blown into it to boot.

Our Game Deptartments in the west have caved into the wolf lovers lies. Idaho Game Department actually deserves what it is getting now due to jumping into bed with the sorry SOB's to start with. I really feel sorry for the hunters, ranchers, business owners of Idaho and all other wolf impacted states and areas.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-14 AT 03:44PM (MST)[p]idelkslayer,

The "wolflovers"...they lost their case the very day the FEIS was accepted, period.

The States now have control of wolf management...whats there to talk about?

Montana, Idaho, Wyoming, and the midwest states all now have control of wolf management...and they are managing wolves.

Again...whats left to talk about?

If wolfhunter and a few others have a problem with how wolves are being managed...thats on them at this point. Instead of looking like a bunch of uniformed fools, they should be addressing their respective State Agencies to adjust quotas, hunting seasons, etc. Blaming wolf lovers, for their lack of a spine in dealing with their own G&F Commissions, Directors, and Biologists to work within the State wolf Plans to meet your objectives,...thats THEIR fault. I work many, many, many hours per month with G&F Staff, Directors, etc. They want CONSTRUCTIVE input from the public...and they appreciate the input. I met with the WYG&F Director and the WYG&F Wildlife Director just last week. I listen to them and they listen to my concerns, thats how change is made. Being a whiny beotch on a hunting board...not so much.

Crying about the wolf lovers and that wolves are now part of the landscape...thats a no-winner. Its nasally whining at best, and nothing more. Its counter-productive and a waste of time and a real black-eye to those with more than a thimble full of knowledge about wildlife management.

The folks that were part of the discussions in the late 80's and early 90's...they made sure that the States would ultimately have control of wolf Management. I can tell you, that was NOT the results of the whiners of today, that was the result of those that were active THEN. It was also not by accident that the visionaries that worked on this issue THEN, made double sure that the States would have control. Don Peay, Ryan Benson, Toby Bridges, and the whiners on this board...they werent even at the table. They didnt even know there was a discussion, and they sure as hell didnt have the vision to ensure that the States would get control.

Of course, those guys, that did ALL the heavy lifting in making sure the EIS was correct, building the State Wolf Plans from the ground up...yeah, they're now run through the mud by the likes of Wolfhunter. They're called bisexuals and fags...real classy.

Goes to show just how unappreciative that some really are...in particular when they have done nothing, and continue to do nothing more than bi tch constantly.

Its just a complete joke...
 
>The bottom line is that the
>majority of wolf lovers are
>advocating for the complete elimination
>of hunting from the landscape.
> They view human hunting
>as an intrusion upon nature
>and not an integral part
>of nature. They refuse
>to acknowledge that human hunters
>have been a part of
>the North American landscape for
>well over 10,000 years which
>also roughly correlates to the
>amount of time that gray
>wolves have inhabited this continent.
>
>
>They don't care if the wolves
>kill all the elk and
>then starve to death so
>long as it happens "naturally".
> They have this concept
>of nature that will magically
>find a sweet spot where
>predator and prey reach a
>balanced number that will sustain
>itself forever. They view
>wildlife management as "elk farming"
>on public land.
>
>Too many people wolf lovers and
>haters fail to realize that
>sometimes letting nature take its
>course will not result in
>a utopia of abundant game
>but as shown by the
>journals of lewis and clark
>and other early explorers, large
>expanses of the west were
>void of wildlife.
>
>Ultimately there is no way to
>have constructive discussion and reach
>compromise with many wolf supporters
>unless they make room for
>the continued use of wildlife
>as a resource for hunters.
> Most hunters I know
>are willing to live with
>wolves as long as states
>can manage their numbers but
>most wolf lovers are not
>willing to live with even
>a single hunter in the
>woods.

+1
And therein lies the problem.

The wolf lovers will never be content until and unless the prey animals can no longer support sport hunting!

Buzz is right, we have wolf management in place. I however, wish we could kill more of them since we were obviously asleep at the wheel when they were introduced and many of us feel that we now have them shoved down our throats.

They certainly don't kill ALL the elk but they do kill SOME of the elk that were available to hunters in the past. There are other problem to deal with also and wolves are just PART of the equation.

I think with current wolf management we can make a go of things... unless the true wolf lover have their way again!

Zeke
 
Buzz H stated the following:

"Wolves are here, they are never going to be eliminated and they are going to be managed by State Plans"

I agree with that.

I would only add the following:

1)That the wolves will be managed by State Plans until the Federal Court system inevitably intervenes and sticks it's nose into the equation. That will happen no matter what the facts and science are.

2)That there are lots of bought and paid for experts, zealots, nuts, elites, charlatans, publicity seekers, politicians and whores on both sides of this issue. Some do it for the fame and notoriety, and most do it for the money. Finding a credible and unbiased source on the subject may be the most difficult part of the equation in any future disputes.

3)That "wolf wars" are just another example of the huge divide that exists in this country between our citizens.

4)That complaining after the fact accomplishes little if anything.

5)That the "wolf wars" have, at the very least, made hunters, sportsman and the groups that purport to represent them, pay more attention to what the government is doing.

6)That the attempts to delist the grizzly bear in the Lower 48 will be interesting to watch. Both sides are already preparing their arguments. Will logic, the facts and science prevail or will emotion and hysteria win the day. Who knows?

just sayin...
mh
 
I agree with 2-6...but number 1 wont happen.

The science/facts support that State wolf Management is working just fine.

Even Molloy agreed.

Zeke,

If you want more wolves killed...I suggest getting after it. The quotas in ID and MT are not even close to being filled and tags are OTC.

Like I already said, enough with the complaining and expecting everyone else to manage wolves.
 
BuzzH,

Unless something has changed recently, there are two pending lawsuits in Federal District Court (one in D.C. and one in Wyoming)involving the acceptability of the Wyoming Wolf Plan. There is a real potential for conflicting decisions and some serious confusion on the subject. As an attorney, I was never confident on how any judge would rule on a particular subject.

just sayin...mh
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-14 AT 04:47PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-14 AT 04:45?PM (MST)

The State still has the authority to augment/change their plan back into compliance with the FEIS, if they lose the court cases.

The State would still not relinquish the right to Manage wolves...and the only thing in need of change would be the classification of wolves outside the Trophy Area.

Easy fix, and one Wyoming will (or should if they're smart) make if they want to continue with managing wolves at the State level.

Thats not the Feds interfering with State Management, thats the courts deciding if Wyomings Plan is in compliance with what they agreed to in the FEIS.

Big difference.

I agree with you on the trust level of courts...and why I have advised my Representatives, Governor, and G&F to not play with the courts in regard to the dual classification of wolves.

The smart play is to eliminate problems before they see a court room.

Too much to lose, and not enough to gain...IMO, of course.
 
I agree buzz but the problem still lies in someone looking in and making the decisions when the State has already made one which will work. Again, outsiders jamming proper management and conservation down our collective throats.
"Change or else" isn't a management plan!!!
Zeke
 
wolfhunter, I can assure you I am neither a fag nor a bisexual. I can also assure you, while I don't know everything about the wolf issue, I know a Hell of a lot more than you do. The name calling is a nice touch which really adds credibility to your rants. I hunt wolves. As you've seen I kill wolves. mnmthunter, I'd love to know of your credentials as a 30 year wolf expert. PM me. We can have a civil discussion. I'm always looking to learn. Again, for those that it hasn't become apparent, I'm not a wolf lover. But I'm not a dumbass either. mtmuley
 
Zeke,

With all due respect, you dont understand how Wyoming found themselves in this mess.

The best place to start...is always at the start.

Wyoming made concessions when they agreed to the language found in the FEIS. One of those was the fact that the State wolf management plans had to be acceptable to the USFWS. The dual classification did not pass the USFWS panel unanimously. IIRC, one biologist would not support Wyomings Plan, which was enough to raise doubt about the legality of WY's plan. Exactly why its still being challenged in court, and why Wyoming is still at risk of losing their arse.

Like it or not, the Feds did not change the goal posts, Wyoming made the decision to challenge the FEIS. Wyoming knew the dual classification was going to be a problem. They were told, numerous times in the process...by the biologists, by a vast majority of the hunting public, by Montana/Idaho, the courts, that the dual classification would be challenged.

Well, Wyoming CHOSE to take the chance, listened to the vocal minority (Wyoming Stockgrowers), and kept the dual classification. They cant be surprised they're being taken to court, they made the deal in the beginning.

There were other options that Wyoming could have...and should have, used. More than one way to skin a cat...and the other options wouldnt have put wolf management at risk of a court case.

But, Wyoming has made their bed...and now they're at the mercy of the courts. High stakes poker with the publics wildlife...not real responsible in my opinion.
 
Buzz,

I don't hold it against you, that you can not see real common sense FACTS about wolves. You have been conditioned or poisoned by one liberal professor after another. Your so smart you can't see the forest for the trees. You educated ones are blind to reality. Again I don't hold it against you, I just feel sorry for you. If your not spoon fed by some study you can't believe what is right in front of your eyes...

Buzz I find it funny you attack me for name calling, your the KING of name calling here on MM...

I challenge you Buzz to go into heavy snow, high wolf population country in March and leave your liberal rose colored glasses home. You might be surprised what you see. You attempt to discredit me at every attempt on the surplus killing. I might be the only one us (you & I) who spends enough time away from the truck window in March to see whats going on with our elk.

mtmuley I could care less about how credible my name calling sounds... You may not be a fag but you damn sure have slammed some guys on here for giving a ##### about their hunting heritage. Not to mention talking out of both sides of your mouth or playing both sides. You come across as two sided, kind of like a bisexual. You just can not decide which team to bat for... Call it what you want!

As far as which side is going to win this wolf war. My money is on the foundation of sportsman. The ones who might have sat by when Buzz was patting himself on the back for being such a liberal suck up in the early 90's. My money is on the common sense side of the battle. He who has everything to lose. The guy's and gal's who make a living off the land, the ones who are not getting rich or some fat pension from the wolf fight. The people who feed their kids elk all year and raise their children to respect the wild. To work with the wild. The same guys and gals who have wolves in their back yard and do not need some peer reviewed liberal suck up to form their thoughts. Those are the ones who are going to win. This is the crowd who has awoke and will just simply take care of the problem. They will not need millions of dollars either. My hat is off to this crowd of winners!!
 
wolfhunter, If calling guys out for false statements on the wolf issue is slamming, so be it. Keep at it man. You're looking smarter every post. mtmuley
 
>Zeke,
>
>With all due respect, you dont
>understand how Wyoming found themselves
>in this mess.
>
>The best place to start...is always
>at the start.
>
>Wyoming made concessions when they agreed
>to the language found in
>the FEIS. One of those
>was the fact that the
>State wolf management plans had
>to be acceptable to the
>USFWS. The dual classification did
>not pass the USFWS panel
>unanimously. IIRC, one biologist would
>not support Wyomings Plan, which
>was enough to raise doubt
>about the legality of WY's
>plan. Exactly why its still
>being challenged in court, and
>why Wyoming is still at
>risk of losing their arse.
>
>
>Like it or not, the Feds
>did not change the goal
>posts, Wyoming made the decision
>to challenge the FEIS. Wyoming
>knew the dual classification was
>going to be a problem.
>They were told, numerous times
>in the process...by the biologists,
>by a vast majority of
>the hunting public, by Montana/Idaho,
>the courts, that the dual
>classification would be challenged.
>
>Well, Wyoming CHOSE to take the
>chance, listened to the vocal
>minority (Wyoming Stockgrowers), and kept
>the dual classification. They cant
>be surprised they're being taken
>to court, they made the
>deal in the beginning.
>
>There were other options that Wyoming
>could have...and should have, used.
>More than one way to
>skin a cat...and the other
>options wouldnt have put wolf
>management at risk of a
>court case.
>
>But, Wyoming has made their bed...and
>now they're at the mercy
>of the courts. High stakes
>poker with the publics wildlife...not
>real responsible in my opinion.
>

This is very true. It amazing how little people understand what the truth is and what is really going on all these years after the first release of wolves.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-28-14 AT 10:01PM (MST)[p]Buzz,
I understand the facts which you presented to me. I also understand that some keep saying "don't worry, the States are in control" but yet it isn't really so!!!
Like I've said before, the States can manage only under the Very Watchful eye of Uncle!!! It's not all bad but it's far from all good too!
B_S,
Please don't underestimate what I know..... "After all these years"
I've said this before too, you can prove any point in the world with one more "professional study".

We all have to use our own brains and realize that we do not have to believe everything we read and hear. We must consider the source and the motivation.

I appreciate the civil discussion that we're having.

Zeke
 
Zeke,

Not all states are in the same place with wolf management. Montana and Idaho, that both have solid plans, are not being taken to court.

Theres a reason why that is the case.

The only thing the Feds are watching is whether or not the populations dip below the numbers needed to trigger delisting. MT and ID have solid plans that are very unlikely to ever see an intervention of Federal authority.

Wyoming...thats another story. Time will tell, and I can assure you that if relisting happens, it will be in Wyoming. Of course, if it were to happen, it would be everyone elses fault. Not many take responsibility for their actions.

Montana and Idaho were smart in putting as much distance as possible between themselves and Wyoming.

Wyoming is paddling their own canoe...in uncharted waters.

We'll see what happens.
 
I like the new BuzzH. Clearly presents his arguements without all the condescending insults. Thank you sir! I knew you were better than that. And I can agree with what you have stated.

The horse is out of the barn in WY, ID and MT and there is no wishing back in. If you don't like wolves in your neck of the woods, buy a tag and get after it. A determined group of dedicated hunters and trappers will never get the population down below the objective. Unless the wolves eat themselves out of existence.
 
Buzz H,

"Not all the states are in the same place with wolf management. Montana and Idaho both have solid plans and are not being taken to court."

This is likely true in the case of Montana. I am not sure you were aware of this action being taken by the usual parties in Idaho:

http://magicvalley.com/news/local/c...cle_ce23fa58-77e5-11e3-ada6-001a4bcf887a.html

It is MY OPINION that the lawsuits will continue no matter what happens until the eco-elites find another cause to throw money at.

just sayin...
mh
 

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