Would this help point creep?

J

just_a_hunter

Active Member
Messages
476
I'm not trying to offend anybody, nor am I talking bad about anyone's momma...

I'm seriously wondering your opinions....

What if we weren't allowed to buy bonus/preference points for any species (in any state.....?.....) What if we had to put in for a tag or sit out and the only way to build points is put skin in the game? We could go one step further and not allow any turn back tags for any reason.

2 exceptions.... Active duty and college.....

I've bought a pile of points like anybody. I do think the above would really help knock the point creep down though.....

Thoughts?

Todd
 
Stupid..that's my opinion. Get in line, pay your money(skin) and hope to live long enough to draw a few good tags. Have some OTC areas to hunt in the meantime.Don't play if you don't like it. College exemption? We have to pay their loans, now you want us to give em a loophole in the points game? Those woke chits can get in line too.
 
Moe said:
Stupid..that's my opinion. Get in line, pay your money(skin) and hope to live long enough to draw a few good tags. Have some OTC areas to hunt in the meantime.Don't play if you don't like it. College exemption? We have to pay their loans, now you want us to give em a loophole in the points game? Those woke chits can get in line too.
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I agree with the college exemption opinion...

What makes not being able to buy only points "stupid"? "Don't play if you don't like it" is exactly what I'm saying.... Buying points is like having someone hold a spot for you in a line you aren't standing in....

Todd
 
I generally like the idea and do think it would help. Turned back tags should only be allowed for active duty military who get deployed or for a medical emergency that won't allow the person to hunt on the tag. No other exceptions. I also like the requirement to front the money as well when applying. Weeds out all the uncommitted and those just hoping to get to apply at some point in the future. You are either in or you aren't!

Can never solve point creep completely, but there are things like this that could help the issue to some degree.
 
People That Already Put Skin In The Game & Dedicated Hunters Are HATED By Some & They Use The Phony F'N Excuse That Dedicated Hunters Are To Blame For A PISS POOR DEER Herd!

I'm Not Against Your Skin In The Game!

But Younger Guys & Gals Old Enough To Be In College Can Make Their Own Decisions!

I Said Before The Points Game Was Started It Wouldn't Be Fair To Younger Generations & Here The HELL We Are!

When 50+ Reasons Why Are COMPREHENDED And 50+ Changes Are Made You'll Have A Start Back To A SLOW Recovery Of The DRATville Deer Herd!

Trying One Or Two TINKER TOY Ideas & Running A 5 year Study On It Is BS!

Some Of What You're Saying Might Be A Slight Help But It's Gonna Take Way More Than That To Turn It Around!

The Deal With The Points System Is Just Starting To Show Perty Good!

Stick Around,It's Gonna Get A Hell Of Alot Worse!
 
There is no way to get all the states on board, and will never happen. I was kind of jesting. As far as just Utah and Colorado go I think it will help. I'm the first to admit that not being able to buy points will be less convenient, and will take a few years to be able to see the point creep trend start downhill but at least its a relatively low impact change. I doubt the states would loose much money as they would still get the app fee.

Todd
 
Imagine if you went to the lottery board and told them you deserve a jackpot because you bought a lottery ticket last year.

Imagine telling folks in the bathroom line you should be first cuz you pissed there last year.


There is no point scheme, or draw scheme without issues.

1 chance per person per year

Problems done.

Everyone whining about points can get a thank you for your conservation contribution letter.
 
Thank you just_a_hunter for bringing up the issue. I think the point systems are an impediment to getting youth involved in hunting. I don't have any workable suggestions though. Maybe someone else on here will have a good idea to post if they discover this thread.
 
Turning tags back in..??? Suppose the majority of your moose unit burns up, then what?? Eat a once in a lifetime tag?

Or is actively burning come hunt dates?
 
How About Guys With A Scratched Toe-Nail & A Dr's Note?

You Ain't Gonna Satisfy Everybody!

We Already Know That!

The F'N WHINING & BAWLING Never Quits!

I Said It Wouldn't Work & It Didn't!

I've Heard JOE BLOWS Say:

They'll Just Have To Start Over By Zeroing Everybody Out!

F'That!

I Don't Know About Anybody-else?

But I'm Not Throwing My Points Away!
 
elkassassin said:
How About Guys With A Scratched Toe-Nail & A Dr's Note?

You Ain't Gonna Satisfy Everybody!

We Already Know That!

The F'N WHINING & BAWLING Never Quits!

I Said It Wouldn't Work & It Didn't!

I've Heard JOE BLOWS Say:

They'll Just Have To Start Over By Zeroing Everybody Out!

F'That!

I Don't Know About Anybody-else?

But I'm Not Throwing My Points Away!
Click to expand...

elkassassin said:
How About Guys With A Scratched Toe-Nail & A Dr's Note?

You Ain't Gonna Satisfy Everybody!

We Already Know That!

The F'N WHINING & BAWLING Never Quits!

I Said It Wouldn't Work & It Didn't!

I've Heard JOE BLOWS Say:

They'll Just Have To Start Over By Zeroing Everybody Out!

F'That!

I Don't Know About Anybody-else?

But I'm Not Throwing My Points Away!
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Waiting for @Jerry to reply! He says he draws high point tags every year but turns them back in because the wind isn’t blowing the right direction!!!
This is the PROBLEM people
 
elkhunterUT said:
I generally like the idea and do think it would help. Turned back tags should only be allowed for active duty military who get deployed or for a medical emergency that won't allow the person to hunt on the tag. No other exceptions. I also like the requirement to front the money as well when applying. Weeds out all the uncommitted and those just hoping to get to apply at some point in the future. You are either in or you aren't!

Can never solve point creep completely, but there are things like this that could help the issue to some degree.
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Sounds like Wyoming. Plus they add like death and a few other special circumstances that allow returns also.
 
I don't know if the points schemes will ever end. In one of the non-Western states I am building points in, the state has made points inheritable. That's a great way to keep getting money floating in from hunters well beyond their years to hunt anymore.
 
I Wished DRATville Woulda Had That Going About 8-9 Years Ago!

My Dad Went To His Grave With MAX Sheep Points!



Bow&Arrow said:
don't know if the points schemes will ever end. In one of the non-Western states I am building points in, the state has made points inheritable. That's a great way to keep getting money floating in from hunters well beyond their years to hunt anymore.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
How About Guys With A Scratched Toe-Nail & A Dr's Note?

You Ain't Gonna Satisfy Everybody!

We Already Know That!

The F'N WHINING & BAWLING Never Quits!

I Said It Wouldn't Work & It Didn't!

I've Heard JOE BLOWS Say:

They'll Just Have To Start Over By Zeroing Everybody Out!

F'That!

I Don't Know About Anybody-else?

But I'm Not Throwing My Points Away!
Click to expand...


Your what?

You "own" nothing. Can't sell them, can't transfer them, your a computer glitch from nothing.
 
At 750.00 A Piece/Point!

You'll Be Out A Perty Good Chunk Of F'N Change!

They're NON-TRANSFERABLE So Sure!

I'll Sell Them To You!

Get Your F'N Pocket Change Out!

I'd Suggest Not Telling Ms Hossy About This Deal!

It's Gonna STING Just A Little!






hossblur said:
You applied for a hunt.

Congrats.

Did you get a cookie when you did also?

$750 a point, I'll drive to the basin.

Do I need a Tupperware? Bag? Horse trailer?
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elkassassin said:
At 750.00 A Piece/Point!

You'll Be Out A Perty Good Chunk Of F'N Change!

They're NON-TRANSFERABLE So Sure!

I'll Sell Them To You!

Get Your F'N Pocket Change Out!

I'd Suggest Not Telling Ms Hossy About This Deal!

It's Gonna STING Just A Little!
Click to expand...

$1000 a point.

Want my DWR customer number?

Second those points you "own" hit my account, I'll head for the basin with a suitcase full of cash.

Don't twist now, you said it would cost, I just named a price.

Hell, since you own them, just transfer me the title.
 
Solving point creep means having the same number of tags given as new applicants to a hunt. Reducing it means giving more tags than new applicants. Tough ask all around. A few thoughts:

FIRST- For Utah (and other with a similar model), we gotta bite the bullet and no longer allow applying for both LE and GS. It sounded like a good idea in the 90s, but it doesn't work.

SECOND- Yes, not being able to simply buy a point would help a little by deterring uncertain applicants. Not turning tags in wouldn't help, as someone is always getting that tag and is removed from the pool.

LAST- Wildlife agencies need to stop growing abnormally old trophy animals on our public lands that go to the deepest pockets first, then to the rest of us after. I know thats definitely a Utah thing, but I'm sure other states have a similar issue. This means more tags on our LE hunts. Not way more, but more while lowering age class obiectives.

Just ideas about reducing point creep...
 
I'd Recommend A Real HD Truck!

Not Knockin The YOTA!

Just Not Sure It's Gonna Haul That Much Cash!


hossblur said:
You forget I'm a drywaller?

My people are famous for the cash up front for nothing routine..

Can I fit all those boxes of points in the Yota? Or should I bring the 1 ton?
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BrowningRage said:
Solving point creep means having the same number of tags given as new applicants to a hunt. Reducing it means giving more tags than new applicants. Tough ask all around. A few thoughts:

FIRST- For Utah (and other with a similar model), we gotta bite the bullet and no longer allow applying for both LE and GS. It sounded like a good idea in the 90s, but it doesn't work.

SECOND- Yes, not being able to simply buy a point would help a little by deterring uncertain applicants. Not turning tags in wouldn't help, as someone is always getting that tag and is removed from the pool.

LAST- Wildlife agencies need to stop growing abnormally old trophy animals on our public lands I'll Give You A Year To Take Pics Of All These Abnormally Old trophy Animals On Our Public Lands,They Must Be Dieing Of Old Age,BULLSSHHITT!
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BrowningRage said:
that go to the deepest pockets first, then to the rest of us after. I know thats definitely a Utah thing, but I'm sure other states have a similar issue. This means more tags on our LE hunts. Not way more, but more while lowering age class obiectives.

Just ideas about reducing point creep...
Click to expand...
 
Said it before, everyone will say how stupid it is, but I’ll say it again. Want better odds. Full tag fee up front to apply. No refunds if you don’t draw. Won’t see every swinging dik out there applying for every tag in every state on a CC that way.

Say what you will but odds would get better and that’d be true “skin in the game”

But really the answer is eliminate points all together
 
JPickett said:
Said it before, everyone will say how stupid it is, but I’ll say it again. Want better odds. Full tag fee up front to apply. No refunds if you don’t draw. Won’t see every swinging dik out there applying for every tag in every state on a CC that way.

Say what you will but odds would get better and that’d be true “skin in the game”

But really the answer is eliminate points all together
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Full tag fee for non resident and no refund? So a chance at a tag for 500 plus? Depending on the state…. That will kill a lot of the creep I guess but make a lot of people bitter also😂

Doubt you would get states to approve because of the loss they would take. I’d venture to say even if the tag/app fee was non refundable if not drawn and cost as much as it would you would loose more people than you would make up for with the cost being higher
 
Tyler25246 said:
Full tag fee for non resident and no refund? So a chance at a tag for 500 plus? Depending on the state…. That will kill a lot of the creep I guess but make a lot of people bitter also😂

Doubt you would get states to approve because of the loss they would take. I’d venture to say even if the tag/app fee was non refundable if not drawn and cost as much as it would you would loose more people than you would make up for with the cost being higher
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And point creep would go away… that was the question right?
 
Bux n Dux said:
Apply or lose the points. Fees upfront. It’ll solve quite a few issues in just a few years time and definitely help with point creep
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Not Visa up front.

Debit card only.

The state will more than make up that $10 point fee in accrued interest.

You can't buy Powerball or scratchers on cc
 
I Did Eliminate My Points!

Hossy Just Bought Them!

JPickett said:
Said it before, everyone will say how stupid it is, but I’ll say it again. Want better odds. Full tag fee up front to apply. No refunds if you don’t draw. Won’t see every swinging dik out there applying for every tag in every state on a CC that way.

Say what you will but odds would get better and that’d be true “skin in the game”

But really the answer is eliminate points all together
Click to expand...
 
JPickett said:
And point creep would go away… that was the question right?
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I’m not saying do it. I think it’s little crazy but might work.
It would definitely make people think about what they are doing.
How many guys do you know that would spend 500 plus on say a 30% chance at a tag?
I think you would loose a lot of applications in turn making the odds a little better, but if you kept the points and implemented this system I think you would still see creep(because max or high point holders will just wait not buying more points until their chances to draw are closer to 100%)unless you made it so you loose points if you don’t apply every year.
 
hossblur said:
Not Visa up front.

Debit card only.

The state will more than make up that $10 point fee in accrued interest.

You can't buy Powerball or scratchers on cc
Click to expand...
You loose license fees also for those that decide not to apply.
It would be hard to try to figure it out but I’m sure Somone good at math might be able to😂
 
Do Any Of You Remember The 93 Year Old Lady That Drew The TIMP Goat Tag Several Years Ago?

The Grandson Was Using A Credit Card & Putting Everybody In The Family In For As Many Tags As He Could!

Still Makes Me Laugh!

I Never Did Hear If She Got Her Goat Or Not But I'll Bet She Did!
 
Mr Eel?

Are you Trying To Get A Job With Our DWR?

eelgrass said:
Point creep. Print more tags. If the demand goes up provide more product. A tag is not a guarantee to be successful it's just permission to hunt. A few years of that and the demand will plummet. Or not, but it will end point creep.:)
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elkassassin said:
Question:

If I Put In For A BISON Hunt & Pull The Tag But I Don't See Any BISON On The Hunt Can I Scream For Another BISON Tag The Following Year?
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That's exactly what is happening on many PLE & OIL's now.
I know a local taxidermist who had max PLE deer points for over 10 years and continued to return the Henry's tag he drew every year while he waited for the stars to align.

My vote is, aside from military service, you draw, you hunt, regardless of circumstances natural or otherwise.
 
So….. is the general consensus that, doing away with point purchases and turn back tags a good thing that will help with point creep?

Todd
 
just_a_hunter said:
So….. is the general consensus that, doing away with point purchases and turn back tags a good thing that will help with point creep?

Todd
Click to expand...

Easiest way would be ending draw schemes, but a lot of old dudes will complain that the scheme they set up to greatly advantage old dudes, got balanced out across the board.

But yeah. For example

I used to listen to Newberg. At the time I believe he had 19 pronghorn points in Utah.

Had he not been able to buy a point on CC yearly, and be forced to front the cash, and take the tag the year he was drawn, he'd of been long out of the system.

Simple economics having money tied up means there will be a drop off.

Having guides patrolling the mtn and advising to turn back tags clogs up the system.

Short of Military Service, the risk is should be with applicant. You are hunting in the west, where drought, wildfire, and winterkill are part of life, if you don't want the risk, there are High Fence units and CWMU purchase tags. Life is risky. If your health fails, your mortgage is still due, so is your car payment. Exceptions for medical, should be eliminated as well.


This BS of guarantees of position, and guarantees of good year, is just that, and good health, are bs.
 
For Colorado NR elk, if you only can get a point if you hunt OTC or apply for the former archery OTC with no refunds.

That will get rid of people who aren't going to hunt here until they get a limited tag. Which is a large part of NR point creep.
 
The only real way to eliminate point creep is to eliminate all point systems. I would give up all my points in NV, MT, WY, UT, CO and AZ in exchange for a random draw like Idaho or NM.

Point systems are not going away and point creep isn't either. It is only going to get worse.

All of these ideas are just putting a bandaid on a bleeding artery. Unless you put significant pressure on, it will continue to bleed. I don't want to see $1000 of "pressure" put on applications to stop point creep.
 
BrianID said:
The only real way to eliminate point creep is to eliminate all point systems. I would give up all my points in NV, MT, WY, UT, CO and AZ in exchange for a random draw like Idaho or NM.

Point systems are not going away and point creep isn't either. It is only going to get worse.

All of these ideas are just putting a bandaid on a bleeding artery. Unless you put significant pressure on, it will continue to bleed. I don't want to see $1000 of "pressure" put on applications to stop point creep.
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Idaho…..for now.
 
I Don't Get it hossy?

You LIKE This!

But You're Throwing Money Around Like It's Nothing Already!

PLEASE DO SPLAIN!

BrianID said:
The only real way to eliminate point creep is to eliminate all point systems. I would give up all my points in NV, MT, WY, UT, CO and AZ in exchange for a random draw like Idaho or NM.

Point systems are not going away and point creep isn't either. It is only going to get worse.

All of these ideas are just putting a bandaid on a bleeding artery. Unless you put significant pressure on, it will continue to bleed. I don't want to see $1000 of "pressure" put on applications to stop point creep.
Click to expand...
 
Point creep is really easy to understand at its base.

It occurs when the number of applicants exceeds the number of available permits.

You can dress it up however you want, but the fact is you can only address it in two ways:

1. Increase available permits

2. Decrease applicants

with regard to Utah’s LE/OIL predicament, you probably HAVE to do both at this point to make any progress, one or the other won’t cut it.

I’m very much in favor of two things right now.

1. Make hunters choose between LE and GS. Can’t do both. There’s a pretty big rift between the bess’es and nillers. Guys will pick a side of the fence and not have a tizzy about it after a week or two. Heck, make it so you can buy a GS point and apply for LE so that fellas can pick the side of the fence they want to land on in any given year.

For example, I hunt the Wasatch east, it’s a 3 point draw. I’d remove myself from the LE pool every 3rd year to hunt GS. On a broad scale that’s 70,000 less LE applicants every year. Double my application fee to cover the cost and I’ll happily pay $80 instead of $40 (gs, dedicated, le, and oil)

2. Make OIL points species interchangeable. I know everyone is terrified that sheep would be impossible to draw, but I would venture to believe a bunch of us are gonna shift to the easiest to draw tags and it’ll iron out the whole system so we have a better understanding of where we are statewide/species wide.
 
Well BEAVIS!

We're Still Waitin On Nillers PROPOSAL!

It Must Be A GRAND PUBAH Of A PROPOSAL Because He's Been Working On It A Long Time!

I Posted A PROPOSAL A While Back!

There Was Something In it For Everybody!

Of Course The OPPORTUNISTS Didn't Like It!

My PROPOSAL Includes Growing Some Older/Bigger Bucks!

It takes time,It Wouldn't Happen Over-Night!

But The Minute We Got Some Bigger/Older Bucks On The Landscape The Opportunists Would Wanna Destroy It!

In My Proposal They Wouldn't Be Able To Destroy Them!

They Can Manage Their Opportunity Units Any Way They Want To!

But When Them Said Units Are Destroyed & Become JUNK Don't Come BAWLIN!



Cam@strawberry said:
Point creep is really easy to understand at its base.

It occurs when the number of applicants exceeds the number of available permits.

You can dress it up however you want, but the fact is you can only address it in two ways:

1. Increase available permits

2. Decrease applicants

with regard to Utah’s LE/OIL predicament, you probably HAVE to do both at this point to make any progress, one or the other won’t cut it.

I’m very much in favor of two things right now.

1. Make hunters choose between LE and GS. Can’t do both. There’s a pretty big rift between the bess’es and nillers. Guys will pick a side of the fence and not have a tizzy about it after a week or two. Heck, make it so you can buy a GS point and apply for LE so that fellas can pick the side of the fence they want to land on in any given year.

For example, I hunt the Wasatch east, it’s a 3 point draw. I’d remove myself from the LE pool every 3rd year to hunt GS. On a broad scale that’s 70,000 less LE applicants every year. Double my application fee to cover the cost and I’ll happily pay $80 instead of $40 (gs, dedicated, le, and oil)

2. Make OIL points species interchangeable. I know everyone is terrified that sheep would be impossible to draw, but I would venture to believe a bunch of us are gonna shift to the easiest to draw tags and it’ll iron out the whole system so we have a better understanding of where we are statewide/species wide.
Click to expand...
 
Cam@strawberry said:
Point creep is really easy to understand at its base.

It occurs when the number of applicants exceeds the number of available permits.

You can dress it up however you want, but the fact is you can only address it in two ways:

1. Increase available permits

2. Decrease applicants

with regard to Utah’s LE/OIL predicament, you probably HAVE to do both at this point to make any progress, one or the other won’t cut it.

I’m very much in favor of two things right now.

1. Make hunters choose between LE and GS. Can’t do both. There’s a pretty big rift between the bess’es and nillers. Guys will pick a side of the fence and not have a tizzy about it after a week or two. Heck, make it so you can buy a GS point and apply for LE so that fellas can pick the side of the fence they want to land on in any given year.

For example, I hunt the Wasatch east, it’s a 3 point draw. I’d remove myself from the LE pool every 3rd year to hunt GS. On a broad scale that’s 70,000 less LE applicants every year. Double my application fee to cover the cost and I’ll happily pay $80 instead of $40 (gs, dedicated, le, and oil)

2. Make OIL points species interchangeable. I know everyone is terrified that sheep would be impossible to draw, but I would venture to believe a bunch of us are gonna shift to the easiest to draw tags and it’ll iron out the whole system so we have a better understanding of where we are statewide/species wide.
Click to expand...

I agree with your first proposal, but I do not agree with #2. I believe that any effort to change the way that points are used will end up screwing people. It is not clear to me why you think #2 will help address point creep.
 
Weighted draw; like Nevada. The more points the greater the chance. I’ve got a lot of deer points that I’d hate to lose, but I’d rather have one of my 4 kids luck into a tag while I’m still young enough to assist. It sucks for those of us with high points, but at least they have some value.
The current system us unsustainable and we need future hunter to feel like they have a reasonable chance to hunt.
 
My thoughts have always been that being able to play both games causes many issues. How about you get a point every year. You can use it for a tag this year or save it for LE hunts. I think people being able to bank hunts but still hunt is causing the issues.

That being said…I will play whatever game they put out there in order for me and my son to be able to hunt. We have been able to navigate the system for more than our share of awesome hunts.
 
Utah400Elk said:
My thoughts have always been that being able to play both games causes many issues. How about you get a point every year. You can use it for a tag this year or save it for LE hunts. I think people being able to bank hunts but still hunt is causing the issues.

That being said…I will play whatever game they put out there in order for me and my son to be able to hunt. We have been able to navigate the system for more than our share of awesome hunts.
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Nationwide, the buying a point and still hunting is causing major issues. It's an unsustainable model. Not sure why States haven't put a stop to it.

Oh, that's right.......$$$$$$$
 
I would be afraid to actually look up how much I spend to apply for hunts for me and my son every year. I bet it’s over 2.5 K and probably closer to 3K with the mandatory hunting licenses and raffles included.

I have a couple final draw attempts this year but this season has been bad for me. Nothing drawn yet.
 
WannaB said:
Weighted draw; like Nevada. The more points the greater the chance. I’ve got a lot of deer points that I’d hate to lose, but I’d rather have one of my 4 kids luck into a tag while I’m still young enough to assist. It sucks for those of us with high points, but at least they have some value.
The current system us unsustainable and we need future hunter to feel like they have a reasonable chance to hunt.
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Utahs draw is half weighted, half full random.
Can’t get more fair than that.
 
So the definition of “fair” was the response

Fair was your word. Not sure you understand the word you used, but carry on
 
just_a_hunter said:
I'm not trying to offend anybody, nor am I talking bad about anyone's momma...

I'm seriously wondering your opinions....

What if we weren't allowed to buy bonus/preference points for any species (in any state.....?.....) What if we had to put in for a tag or sit out and the only way to build points is put skin in the game? We could go one step further and not allow any turn back tags for any reason.

2 exceptions.... Active duty and college.....

I've bought a pile of points like anybody. I do think the above would really help knock the point creep down though.....

Thoughts?

Todd
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I don't think it matters. Points, no points etc. As long as the better than average to premier tags remain limited in quantity, and the volume of hunters stays high, the tags will be hard to draw no matter the system.

The points system just helps fund the game and fish, while giving the loyal applicants a little advantage.

New Mexico does it with the full tag fees up front and doesn't award points. I suspect that does limit the amount of applicants because it's almost 8k for a NR to apply for all the big game. But it's still hard to draw in a lot of units for deer, elk and sheep is obnoxious.

ZERO states have enough premium tags or animals to make everyone happy. Some are better than others, especially for residents. But the reality is the only real way to experience a premium quality hunt on a regular basis is to buy them, and they are expensive. If you can't afford to buy these readily available private land hunts, landowner tags, etc. then you will wait to draw like the rest of us.

That is just how it is. The "system" doesn't matter. Not enough animals to go around for the demand.
 
I dont like this idea but you can fix point creep in just a few years. Just start doubling the tag and app fees every year till the market evens out supply and demand. Turns it into even more of a rich mans game, but we are already there for alot of people. Until they can find a way to increase the resource the only only way to get rid of creep is decrease demand, and I am not seeing either of those happening.
 
Buxndiverdux said:
I don't think it matters. Points, no points etc. As long as the better than average to premier tags remain limited in quantity, and the volume of hunters stays high, the tags will be hard to draw no matter the system.

The points system just helps fund the game and fish, while giving the loyal applicants a little advantage.

New Mexico does it with the full tag fees up front and doesn't award points. I suspect that does limit the amount of applicants because it's almost 8k for a NR to apply for all the big game. But it's still hard to draw in a lot of units for deer, elk and sheep is obnoxious.

ZERO states have enough premium tags or animals to make everyone happy. Some are better than others, especially for residents. But the reality is the only real way to experience a premium quality hunt on a regular basis is to buy them, and they are expensive. If you can't afford to buy these readily available private land hunts, landowner tags, etc. then you will wait to draw like the rest of us.

That is just how it is. The "system" doesn't matter. Not enough animals to go around for the demand.
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But there's A CHOSEN FEW That Want More Tags Issued!

Buy They Don't Wanna Do JACK F'N SQUAT To Help Improve The Deer Herd!

MORE TAGS!

MORE TAGS!

JUST DOUBLE THEM TAGS!

SWEET GEEZUS!
 
elkassassin said:
But there's A CHOSEN FEW That Want More Tags Issued!

Buy They Don't Wanna Do JACK F'N SQUAT To Help Improve The Deer Herd!

MORE TAGS!

MORE TAGS!

JUST DOUBLE THEM TAGS!

SWEET GEEZUS!
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I can't remember did you get a tag this year, or did you sit out like you have been preaching about. SAVE THE HERD!!!!!!!!!
 
Love AZ system. 1. 20% preference 80% RANDOM.
2. 90-10
3. OTC for archery deer with a quota system in place and 10% cap on NR for the OTC.
 
How about some thoughts on this system?

In PA, if you apply for an elk tag and don't draw, you get another "point" for the following year.

But, unlike most states where the top point holders are guaranteed a tag, all you get is another point in the bucket. There are no guarantees, regardless of how many points you have.

So in your first year, your name is in the bucket one time. If you have applied eight times, unsuccessfully, your name is in the bucket eight times. So on and so on.

So by "building points", you up your odds, but there are no tags set aside for the top points holders.

I like it. You increase your odds if you are unsuccessful by having your name on more pieces of paper to be pulled out of the bucket (figuratively speaking), but half of the tags (or more) aren't already set aside before the draw even begins.
 
You all seem to assume that all G&F departments want to make it better for hunters to draw. I don't know about Utah but here in AZ our dept is very creative on coming up with ways to generate more funds. They want more people to apply and buy points, not less. Things such as point guard, point guard plus, ethical hunting class to earn a permanent BP, loyalty point, hunter safety point. There is no way they are going to do something that hurts their bottom line. In AZ we get nothing from the general fund. Almost all their money comes from hunters and fishermen, lottery, donations and people buying outdoor equipment & supplies (Pittman-Robertson Act). They have bills to pay, wolves to raise and pensions to fund. We have a very little supply and a huge demand. We lose habitat by the day and there is no way to significantly improve numbers of animals. A very successful basketball coach once told me rules are put in place and it is up to you to use them to your advantage. Carry on if it makes you feel better.
 

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