WHERE ARE ALL THE DEER???

[Tristate]

@Tristate
Your comment really got me thinking.
You are correct, it's not 1908 anymore and a lot of things "unnatural" have changed since then.
Logging, forestry cleanups, chaining, planting and creating millions of acres of new habitat, etc, etc.

Would you agree or disagree that our "wildlands" are more healthy today than 1908?

What do you consider good health. Some things are healthier. Many are not. Much of the health definition is also what direction you are going. Very few indicators are moving on a positive track. That really is an over simplification of the state of wildlife and wild places in the US but it's the best I can give you.

 

[slamdunk]

What do you consider good health. Some things are healthier. Many are not. Much of the health definition is also what direction you are going. Very few indicators are moving on a positive track. That really is an over simplification of the state of wildlife and wild places in the US but it's the best I can give you.

That didn't help much since you compared today's "Wild America" to 1908.
I did expect a little more indepth comparison, but ok....

I'll go back to the real factor in TODAY'S issues because 1908 doesn't matter to 2023, especially since there is absolutely nothing to support the comparison.

 

[Tristate]

That didn't help much since you compared today's "Wild America" to 1908.
I did expect a little more indepth comparison, but ok....

I'll go back to the real factor in TODAY'S issues because 1908 doesn't matter to 2023, especially since there is absolutely nothing to support the comparison.

That's fine. I already proved my point. The habitats which you hunt have changed and are changing as a result of YOU.

Now acting like you have no responsibility, or even can, manage these places is grossly short sighted and irresponsible.

 

[middlefork]

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1166&context=usupress_pubs

"Utah received statehood in 1896, but it was not until 1907 that the first license fee of $1.00 was required to hunt big game. In 1907, only a few hunters participated in the hunting of big game, primarily because the number of big game animals available in Utah was very small, and probably less than the numbers that were estimated by Orange Olsen in 1900.Big game populations had been decimated by years of hunting seasons lasting six months, high predator populations, intermittent but extremely harsh winters, and still a preponderance of grass on many winter ranges, although shrubs were increasing. Unfortunately, no data on licenses sold or harvest are available for 1907. It is likely no data were recorded for the1907 hunt, particularly because prior to that year the only hunting restriction had been the six-month season. Since hunting had previously been free, it is quite likely that only a few hunters bothered to purchase a license and most hunters continued to hunt without the newly required license. By 1907, Utah’s wildlife commissioner as well as hunters clearly recognized the absence of big game in the State and the need to protect remaining animals from all hunting. As a consequence, all big game hunting was closed for the next six years between 1908 and 1913.

 

[slamdunk]

That's fine. I already proved my point. The habitats which you hunt have changed and are changing as a result of YOU.

Now acting like you have no responsibility, or even can, manage these places is grossly short sighted and irresponsible.

So...... "acting like I have no responsibility" followed by "or even think I can" followed by "irresponsible" in the same sentence ?

Which am I, irresponsible because of all the Conservation work I do?
Or, please explain how I am "irresponsible thinking I can", when I actually "do".

This seriously gives me a headache trying to understand what you're insinuating.

And while you're at it, explain how YOU aren't "responsible" as a sportman to do SOMETHING, since it is YOUR fault as said "Sportsman" ?

 

[slamdunk]

https://digitalcommons.usu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1166&context=usupress_pubs

"Utah received statehood in 1896, but it was not until 1907 that the first license fee of $1.00 was required to hunt big game. In 1907, only a few hunters participated in the hunting of big game, primarily because the number of big game animals available in Utah was very small, and probably less than the numbers that were estimated by Orange Olsen in 1900.Big game populations had been decimated by years of hunting seasons lasting six months, high predator populations, intermittent but extremely harsh winters, and still a preponderance of grass on many winter ranges, although shrubs were increasing. Unfortunately, no data on licenses sold or harvest are available for 1907. It is likely no data were recorded for the1907 hunt, particularly because prior to that year the only hunting restriction had been the six-month season. Since hunting had previously been free, it is quite likely that only a few hunters bothered to purchase a license and most hunters continued to hunt without the newly required license. By 1907, Utah’s wildlife commissioner as well as hunters clearly recognized the absence of big game in the State and the need to protect remaining animals from all hunting. As a consequence, all big game hunting was closed for the next six years between 1908 and 1913.

@Tristate
Well.....there goes your hypothesis!?‍

 

[Tristate]

@Tristate
Well.....there goes your hypothesis!?‍

That has nothing to do with my hypothesis. Please work on your reading comprehension.

 

[Tristate]

So...... "acting like I have no responsibility" followed by "or even think I can" followed by "irresponsible" in the same sentence ?

Which am I, irresponsible because of all the Conservation work I do?
Or, please explain how I am "irresponsible thinking I can", when I actually "do".

This seriously gives me a headache trying to understand what you're insinuating.

And while you're at it, explain how YOU aren't "responsible" as a sportman to do SOMETHING, since it is YOUR fault as said "Sportsman" ?

You might want to reread what I wrote. Your questions aren't about what I said.

I do believe you had a headache.

We did make progress by you understanding you actually don't hunt in wild places anymore.

 

[Vanilla]

Tristate makes himself feel better about high fenced hunting over bait stations by saying you don’t hunt wild places anymore.

He wouldn’t know wild if it landed in his lap and slapped him in the face.

 

[slamdunk]

Tristate makes himself feel better about high fenced hunting over bait stations by saying you don’t hunt wild places anymore.

He wouldn’t know wild if it landed in his lap and slapped him in the face.

I completely understand that 100%......it's mind blowing ? especially when he calls me out on "comprehension" ?

 

[slamdunk]

You might want to reread what I wrote. Your questions aren't about what I said.

I do believe you had a headache.

We did make progress by you understanding you actually don't hunt in wild places anymore.

Your "wild" and mine are polar opposite.

Your comparison to Utah's "Wild" of 1908 and today are completely ludicrous, just as Middleforks article clearly lays out.

Now please explain what "MY RESPONSIBILITY" is.....or isn't (I can't quite decipher your contradictory accusations).
And again, I ask you what YOUR "responsibilities are?

 

[Tristate]

Your "wild" and mine are polar opposite.

Your comparison to Utah's "Wild" of 1908 and today are completely ludicrous, just as Middleforks article clearly lays out.

Now please explain what "MY RESPONSIBILITY" is.....or isn't (I can't quite decipher your contradictory accusations).
And again, I ask you what YOUR "responsibilities are?

Doesn't matter if your wild and my wild are polar opposites because neither exist anymore.

As for middlefork's article, it doesn't use the word "wild" at all. You couldn't understand what I wrote and you can't even understand what you are using to argue me with.?‍

Your responsibility and my responsibility are the same. The big game herds where we hunt must be left no worse to our children than when they were left to us. Preferably better. Sitting around saying we can't do that because of the weather is a cop out.

 

[middlefork]

The article doesn't describe wild because by that time wild didn't exist.
If you read further you find that it was a pretty unique set of circumstances that led to the "boom" of mule deer.
But you are right in that the landscape changed and is still changing.
Can we alter that to benefit the deer? I'm not optimistic.

 

[Tristate]

The article doesn't describe wild because by that time wild didn't exist.
If you read further you find that it was a pretty unique set of circumstances that led to the "boom" of mule deer.
But you are right in that the landscape changed and is still changing.
Can we alter that to benefit the deer? I'm not optimistic.

Okay thanks for agreeing with me.

 

[cantkillathing]

Utah seeks to implement, study deer hunt changes in 2024 as deer populations struggle

Utah wildlife officials want to test and study hunting changes in five units next year, to see if the changes can improve deer populations.

www.ksl.com

Can someone explain why the DWR now says saving bucks will increase deer populations, or I guess they will do a study to see if it helps.

 

[Tristate]

Utah seeks to implement, study deer hunt changes in 2024 as deer populations struggle

Utah wildlife officials want to test and study hunting changes in five units next year, to see if the changes can improve deer populations.

www.ksl.com

Can someone explain why the DWR now says saving bucks will increase deer populations, or I guess they will do a study to see if it helps.

I would have to see what their data is saying but it sounds like they are having some issues with successful copulation.

 

[Vanilla]

I don’t think the DWR is saying that at all. I think the DWR is saying “Southern RAC keeps demanding this…fine! We’ll give ‘em what they want!”

APRs do not boost a deer herd’s health. Period.

 

[Robiland]

I don’t think the DWR is saying that at all. I think the DWR is saying “Southern RAC keeps demanding this…fine! We’ll give ‘em what they want!”

APRs do not boost a deer herd’s health. Period.

They tried this on MONROE back in the late 80's and early 90's. I dont remember the exact years, but IT DID NOT WORK THEN, AND IT WONT WORK NOW!!!! IT will not help does and fawns survive. So, whatever I guess...

 

[Vanilla]

I find it funny they are calling it a research opportunity.

We already have the research. But like you, I guess it’s a big “whatever!”

Maybe we should add to the rule that anyone that applies for the Pine Valley or Boulder hunts in these “research” areas are bound to apply for those units for life. I mean, it is not exactly fair to demand all these restrictions and then when it backfires, bounce to a new area…right?

 

[Tristate]

I think where yall screw up is yall want silver bullet answers. Yall want a single something to blame and then yall argue it to death.

And of course because you have shot a deer many of you believe that you are deer experts. A sort of Monday morning quarterback around the water cooler thing.

We have many counties under antler restrictions here. In most of the counties they have helped immensely. We have run into some challenges with them and they aren't a perfect solution but they sure do help a lot.

As long as the state does them in tandem with other management practices to improve survivability it is usually a great thing.

 

[elkfromabove]

I don’t think the DWR is saying that at all. I think the DWR is saying “Southern RAC keeps demanding this…fine! We’ll give ‘em what they want!”

APRs do not boost a deer herd’s health. Period.

I'm sure it's a little more like, "We've already done all of this and it hasn't help grow the herds, but since you still want to blame it on us for issuing too many buck tags, we'll do it again just to shut you up!"

However, there is one thing that puzzles me. Why did they leave out Panguitch Lake? It's nether on the list for changes nor on the list for reference units? I live in the SW Desert unit (barely) and am within a half to 5 miles of Panguitch Lake, Zion, Pine Valley and Beaver and these changes will wipe out many of my choices for archery deer setups that I've used for many years. What's next?

 

[MrShane]

I'm sure it's a little more like, "We've already done all of this and it hasn't help grow the herds, but since you still want to blame it on us for issuing too many buck tags, we'll do it again just to shut you up!"

However, there is one thing that puzzles me. Why did they leave out Panguitch Lake? It's nether on the list for changes nor on the list for reference units? I live in the SW Desert unit (barely) and am within a half to 5 miles of Panguitch Lake, Zion, Pine Valley and Beaver and these changes will wipe out many of my choices for archery deer setups that I've used for many years. What's next?

I was also surprised they left out Panguitch.

 

[MrShane]

Utah seeks to implement, study deer hunt changes in 2024 as deer populations struggle

Utah wildlife officials want to test and study hunting changes in five units next year, to see if the changes can improve deer populations.

www.ksl.com

Can someone explain why the DWR now says saving bucks will increase deer populations, or I guess they will do a study to see if it helps.

Sure.
Very easy.
If you shoot one less buck a year then the population just went up by one.

 

[elkassassin]

Seems Like They Seen Our Thread Here On MM?

They Mocking Me Or What?

 

[prizes14]

Hunted the Nine Mile unit by Sunnyside this past week and didn't see one deer. Very little sign too. Talked to a bunch of locals that has permits too and they also said deer are non existant.

 

[elkassassin]

There's No Doubt Deer Numbers Are Down!

There's No Doubt The Winter Hit Em Hard!

But They Approve Permit Numbers The Year Before?

Without Knowing What Mother Nature Is Gonna Smack You With!

Everybody Knew The Winter Hit Our Deer Herds Hard!

But Permit Numbers Had Already Been Set In Stone The Year Before!

More PISS POOR MANAGEMENT Right There!

 

[Vanilla]

But They Approve Permit Numbers The Year Before?

Without Knowing What Mother Nature Is Gonna Smack You With!

Everybody Knew The Winter Hit Our Deer Herds Hard!

But Permit Numbers Had Already Been Set In Stone The Year Before!

More PISS POOR MANAGEMENT Right There!

That simply isn’t true. They adjusted deer tag numbers on more than one unit after the winter and before the draws. They moved away from the previously approved tag numbers that were set earlier in the year, not the year before.

Bessy, I promise they’ll give you plenty of real things to complain about. You don’t have to make up stuff that isn’t true to be able to complain.

 

[elkassassin]

My Bad I Guess!

I Didn't See The Adjustments I Guess!

One Question Though Niller?

How Mad Are You At The DWR For 'Cutting Them Tags'?

That simply isn’t true. They adjusted deer tag numbers on more than one unit after the winter and before the draws. They moved away from the previously approved tag numbers that were set earlier in the year, not the year before.

Bessy, I promise they’ll give you plenty of real things to complain about. You don’t have to make up stuff that isn’t true to be able to complain.

 

[Vanilla]

It bothers me greatly.

In just 5 years we’ve gone from 90,650 deer permits to 64,725. That is a 29% cut!

For all those people demanding “drastic” tag cuts, in only 5 years we’ve cut basically 1 out of every 3 deer that’s in this state!

When does it end? When will it be good enough?

Yes I’m mad those tags have been cut. It’s a darn shame, actually.

 

[elkassassin]

So Niller?

The Herd Keeps Declining But You Don't Want Any Tags Cut?

How Much Harder Can We Hunt A Suffering Deer Herd?

Maybe Start Doing Smart Things Rather Than STUPID Sshitt!

It's FUBAR!

F'ED!

UP!

BEYOND!

A!

REPAIR!

It bothers me greatly.

In just 5 years we’ve gone from 90,650 deer permits to 64,725. That is a 29% cut!

For all those people demanding “drastic” tag cuts, in only 5 years we’ve cut basically 1 out of every 3 deer that’s in this state!

When does it end? When will it be good enough?

Yes I’m mad those tags have been cut. It’s a darn shame, actually.