Utah Expo

I just want to focus on this last part to illustrate why I disagree. When the DWR is the on rigging the system so this lobby for “quality” continues to remain powerful and stamp out any effort to opposition is corruption. It’s the very definition of corruption.

You take from those you are saying are under-represented and underfunded and give the money to those on the other side, in a way that violated their own rules to boot, and that is corruption.

In fact, I’d be interested to see if what SFW does in its lobbying efforts for wildlife regulations are a violation of the Hatch Act. That’s an interesting rabbit hole someone should go down…

So berrysblaster, I get what you’re saying in trying to focus on fixing the issue, but if we’re starting from the position that what SFW and the DWR have done here is above board and not corruption, then you’ve lost me.
I get what you are saying here nilla. Not sure I agree with it, however, I’m definitely not prepared to argue against it.

I view corruption through the lens of legality. Nothing that SFW or the DWR has done or is doing is illegal, so therefore I don’t see it as corrupt. Unfair? Probably.

There’s so many levels and layers to this problem it’s almost irresponsible to blanket assess it in 4-5 paragraphs typed on a phone.

I believe the pendulum is beginning to shift, some of the guys who propped up the system for the last decade are seeing its shortcomings and money is shifting purposes. The antelope island deer tag sale on Friday is a glaring example, and while I won’t elaborate on what happened with it, it sent a very clear message to the powers that be, that there are people in the state in places that can make change that are fed up. Hope it continues.
 
It's reasonable to have a different definition of "corruption" and therefore see the issue differently. That is perfectly fine. You know (or at least I hope you know) I've always respected your take on this stuff as I know you've put the time in. Even if we haven't always seen eye to eye, when you speak, I pay attention. Best of luck to you on the Satch this year!

And yes, the tides are definitely changing. And smart folks are seeing this, and are adjusting accordingly.
 
Let's start a Go Fund Me account to help SFW pay for the 3rd Party Audit. We might learn they are the best thing since sliced bread. I am dead serious, I have no real issue with them as I do not know enough to have an opinion. I do have an issue with the people who made the decision to go with them over RMEF proposal. That is not their fault - they are good at having connections that matter.
 
Let's start a Go Fund Me account to help SFW pay for the 3rd Party Audit. We might learn they are the best thing since sliced bread. I am dead serious, I have no real issue with them as I do not know enough to have an opinion. I do have an issue with the people who made the decision to go with them over RMEF proposal. That is not their fault - they are good at having connections that matter.
SFW failed to submit an Expo bid by the deadline. That is their fault.

Does anybody believe they weren't part of the discussion with DWR in developing an outline to extend the procurement procedures to get themselves a 10-yr contract? Does anybody believe that happened in a vacuum?
 
Does anyone believe the same 5 guys on the internet can cry about the same 2 subjects every February for a decade and never grow past it?
 
Does anyone believe the same 5 guys on the internet can cry about the same 2 subjects every February for a decade and never grow past it?
You had me at 5 Guys.
Great Burgers and even better people.

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I won't stop talking about this subject until the problem is fixed. Bullies hope that people will just "grow past it." I guess it's a good thing I'm not easily bullied. (IE, impossible)


Bullied??????????????

SFW DOESN'T EVEN KNOW YOU EXIST!????

I suppose bullying is what makes little kids stop crying.?


Just because you don't get your way and you feel "bullied".???

What a snowflake.
 
The lady doth protest too much, me thinks.

Generally I really don't care what you think on any topic, tri. But on this one, I really could not care any less than I do about your opinion. Keep shouting. Use your caps lock and exclamation points to emphasize how much you're outraged. I simply could not care less.
 
The lady doth protest too much, me thinks.

Generally I really don't care what you think on any topic, tri. But on this one, I really could not care any less than I do about your opinion. Keep shouting. Use your caps lock and exclamation points to emphasize how much you're outraged. I simply could not care less.

You mean the ladies that have been protesting for 10 years AND GOT NOTHING.

The caps lock is laughter. And you care boy.
 
Hey guys yall may want to listen to Berryblaster. He's actually starting to realize real problems and how yall are being distracted. I don't agree with everything he is saying but I can tell he is actually thinking.
I want to make something abundantly clear. I do not want your endorsement tri, I do not care for you, your persona, nor pretty much any of your positions. I think this place would be better served without you in it, I find most of your banter trollish, and reprehensible.

Thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts, but your reputation on here is such that I do not want to be seen in any light as someone who stands, believes, or promotes anything you do.
 
I want to make something abundantly clear. I do not want your endorsement tri, I do not care for you, your persona, nor pretty much any of your positions. I think this place would be better served without you in it, I find most of your banter trollish, and reprehensible.

Thanks for taking the time to read my thoughts, but your reputation on here is such that I do not want to be seen in any light as someone who stands, believes, or promotes anything you do.


I wasn't hunting for your support berryblaster. But unlike pretty much everyone else on these forums I tell people the truth. A few people can handle it but most can't. That's why they are permanently stuck feeding off internet emotions.

But I do want to encourage you to keep trying to think a little deeper than many do about wildlife management. The rest of these kids are still fighting over deer tags. Don't fall for that distraction.
 
I wasn't hunting for your support berryblaster. But unlike pretty much everyone else on these forums I tell people the truth. A few people can handle it but most can't. That's why they are permanently stuck feeding off internet emotions.

But I do want to encourage you to keep trying to think a little deeper than many do about wildlife management. The rest of these kids are still fighting over deer tags. Don't fall for that distraction.
HAHAHA Kid now I've heard it all.

Why don't you come out to the basin! this KID will show you how to hunt like really hunt (without a high fence/ no private property/ open sights/ no bino's/ rangefinder /no guides/and no trail cameras ) GS public land any bull.
 
HAHAHA Kid now I've heard it all.

Why don't you come out to the basin! this KID will show you how to hunt like really hunt (without a high fence/ no private property/ open sights/ no bino's/ rangefinder /no guides/and no trail cameras ) GS public land any bull.


Really getting desperate for some masculinity aren't you.
 
You gents do realize that both of these statements can be correct.

1. The current system including conservation permits is not corrupt and serves its intended function well.

2. The current system does not serve wildlife or the average hunter well.

Hossy, just my observation, but you harping on mysterious back door deals, Peayday’s, and money really does your position a disservice. It moves peoples focus from the root issues to an argumentative place where they get lost in maze of he said she said, speculation, and assumption.

The root is this, the LE pay to play system Utah currently promotes may not be in the best interests of either the wildlife, or the hunters seeking to conserve it. Most of us could not care less about how SFW, MDF, or any other acronyms spend money on wildlife. We couldn’t care one bit less about who puts on the expo, or the names of the people who are successful in the draw.

What we do care about is the stark reality of a management system that limits hunting opportunities on a significant scale in the name of ‘quality’. We care about the math that bars the gate of our children having ready access to hunting in our home state in the coming years.

That group of people is horribly underrepresented, doesn’t have time, money, or the awareness to consistently attend the myriad of meetings from RAC’s to the WLB and be heard. Frankly speaking that group of people gets thwarted by apathy and out spent, intentionally so, every time someone attempts to create an entity that represents them. That’s not corruption, that’s just the application of available funds.

I didn’t intend to write a novel on the subject, but here we are. Keep beating down the door on corruption that doesn’t exist, by all means, and I’ll check back in another 10 years and be shocked that nothing has changed the same as it hasn’t in the last 10.

Amen and Amen! Been there! Done that with UWC!
 
Amen and Amen! Been there! Done that with UWC!
And I’d bet a healthy chunk of money that I don’t have, that what sunk you wasn’t really money, or surface level interest, it was apathy. Apathy on a broad scale from a group of people who want to use the outdoors, but aren’t passionate about it. Those people are quick to complain, but when it comes to actual involvement, family, 9-5’s, or their numerous other hobbies take precedence over the couple weeks a year or now every 3 they drag the family and camper up to chase a deer they aren’t likely to be excited about. That group of people desperately needs representation, but they haven’t the awareness, dedication, or understanding of what that entails.

EFA, I make a living off that group of people. I understand them, and if you want someone with a voice and an ear acutely aware of them, I’d be happy to stand in meetings with guys and say exactly what I just typed.
 
So BEAVIS?

You Guiding The Alcatraz Hunter?

And I’d bet a healthy chunk of money that I don’t have, that what sunk you wasn’t really money, or surface level interest, it was apathy. Apathy on a broad scale from a group of people who want to use the outdoors, but aren’t passionate about it. Those people are quick to complain, but when it comes to actual involvement, family, 9-5’s, or their numerous other hobbies take precedence over the couple weeks a year or now every 3 they drag the family and camper up to chase a deer they aren’t likely to be excited about. That group of people desperately needs representation, but they haven’t the awareness, dedication, or understanding of what that entails.

EFA, I make a living off that group of people. I understand them, and if you want someone with a voice and an ear acutely aware of them, I’d be happy to stand in meetings with guys and say exactly what I just typed.
 
Anyone questioning the merits of RMEF compared to MDF and SFW should ask themselves how elk are doing nationwide compared to mule deer. How many elk exist in places today that they didn't occur in 20-30 years ago? Mule deer?
Not exactly a fair comparison, while I wouldn't take anything away from what RMEF has done for elk. To compare the elk recovery to the muledeer decline and tie them to the groups is not a fair comparison.

Hell there is an argument to be made that the elk recovery is a contributing factor to the muledeer decline.
 
Not exactly a fair comparison, while I wouldn't take anything away from what RMEF has done for elk. To compare the elk recovery to the muledeer decline and tie them to the groups is not a fair comparison.

Hell there is an argument to be made that the elk recovery is a contributing factor to the muledeer decline.
Agreed, every state with mule deer has had a sharp decline regardless of efforts from multiple organizations to include the holy grail RMEF.

Many of the projects that were targeted for mule deer have also benefited elk. Comparing the two species is not comparing apples to apples.
 
I just can't wait to see what celebrity hunters and SFW loyalists are awarded tags this time around. Usually about a half dozen or so every year. Notice I didn't say draw......
 
And I’d bet a healthy chunk of money that I don’t have, that what sunk you wasn’t really money, or surface level interest, it was apathy. Apathy on a broad scale from a group of people who want to use the outdoors, but aren’t passionate about it. Those people are quick to complain, but when it comes to actual involvement, family, 9-5’s, or their numerous other hobbies take precedence over the couple weeks a year or now every 3 they drag the family and camper up to chase a deer they aren’t likely to be excited about. That group of people desperately needs representation, but they haven’t the awareness, dedication, or understanding of what that entails.

EFA, I make a living off that group of people. I understand them, and if you want someone with a voice and an ear acutely aware of them, I’d be happy to stand in meetings with guys and say exactly what I just typed.


So far I've agreed with you.

But when your paycheck comes from the outdoors, is it passion, or self interest?

I guarantee on the 10th, there will be a pile of outfitters who can get to a 10 am meeting during the week. While the "apathetic" guy, has to be at work.

Is that because Doyle and the crew are passionate about the outdoors, or passionate about getting paid?

Developers spend a lot of time at city meetings, but it's not because they are civic minded, it's because they livelihoods depend on it
 
So far I've agreed with you.

But when your paycheck comes from the outdoors, is it passion, or self interest?

I guarantee on the 10th, there will be a pile of outfitters who can get to a 10 am meeting during the week. While the "apathetic" guy, has to be at work.

Is that because Doyle and the crew are passionate about the outdoors, or passionate about getting paid?

Developers spend a lot of time at city meetings, but it's not because they are civic minded, it's because they livelihoods depend on it


It doesn't matter. THIS IS AMERICA. Your non-criminal motives for doing a job are your right. Being a hunting guide isn't a crime.

Can a person be a hunting guide if the outdoors make him really miserable????? I guess that would be okay in your book?
 
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The deer herd is hurting everywhere in the west not just Utah, I do not know what other states are doing to help fix the problem but I there is some good stuff going on in Utah to try and fix the problem.

The DWR is actively revitalizing mule deer habitat.

Just to name a few.
The DWR along with BYU and USU are actively conducting mule deer research throughout the state of Utah.
The DWR is actively paying coyote bounties.

The SFW, MDF, RMEF and all the supporters of these organizations are paying for all this to be done and going out and helping with some of the projects to try and help the deer herd numbers.

Slamdunk is posting when some of these projects are taking place and he has reported back that outside of the men and women of these organizations and Dedicated Hunters there is not much others coming out to help.

My question where are you, what are you doing to help the deer herd out?
Are we invited to participate and help with these projects..?? How do we look them up and volunteer our time and energy?
 
So far I've agreed with you.

But when your paycheck comes from the outdoors, is it passion, or self interest?

I guarantee on the 10th, there will be a pile of outfitters who can get to a 10 am meeting during the week. While the "apathetic" guy, has to be at work.

Is that because Doyle and the crew are passionate about the outdoors, or passionate about getting paid?

Developers spend a lot of time at city meetings, but it's not because they are civic minded, it's because they livelihoods depend on it
My living comes from people. Hoss. That needs to be clear. Not wildlife. People choose to spend money at a business.

People make time for the things they value. Those same people working jobs that ‘prevent’ them from attending have no problem using PTO, sick days, and income to spend a week at Disney land, but they don’t have the same level of interest or value from the outdoors.

From a economic science standpoint, they get more intrinsic value or ‘utility’ out of Disney land then they do from a week in the hills. Now, stop. Just stop go back and digest that statement. Can we do anything about that? Can we provide a higher quality product to supplant the hierarchy of value in any given humans decision making processes? Can we manipulate ease of access to create more value? Basic Econ says that humans will subconsciously take the path that provides the least resistance AND most value.

So hunting in particular has to meet those two qualifiers if we want to make real inroads into bringing people back to the foundational values we passionately Espouse. Until then? Well, the room will be ruled by the guys who carry the biggest stick.

Apathy is so easy, and once it’s established you almost have to blow up the system to fix it.

Bottom line? You want people to care? Give them a reason to. Give them enough of a reason to leave work for a 10 am meeting. The state hasn’t done that for a long long time.
 
My living comes from people. Hoss. That needs to be clear. Not wildlife. People choose to spend money at a business.

People make time for the things they value. Those same people working jobs that ‘prevent’ them from attending have no problem using PTO, sick days, and income to spend a week at Disney land, but they don’t have the same level of interest or value from the outdoors.

From a economic science standpoint, they get more intrinsic value or ‘utility’ out of Disney land then they do from a week in the hills. Now, stop. Just stop go back and digest that statement. Can we do anything about that? Can we provide a higher quality product to supplant the hierarchy of value in any given humans decision making processes? Can we manipulate ease of access to create more value? Basic Econ says that humans will subconsciously take the path that provides the least resistance AND most value.

So hunting in particular has to meet those two qualifiers if we want to make real inroads into bringing people back to the foundational values we passionately Espouse. Until then? Well, the room will be ruled by the guys who carry the biggest stick.

Apathy is so easy, and once it’s established you almost have to blow up the system to fix it.

Bottom line? You want people to care? Give them a reason to. Give them enough of a reason to leave work for a 10 am meeting. The state hasn’t done that for a long long time.


UMMMMMMMM

The trail cam dibacle called bullshit.

Dudes attented RAC. They attended WB. They answered surveys.

What they got, was a lawyer, and you and I both know the outfitters are planning a class action if they don't get their way. That lawyer found some loophole , via "rules " to reopen a cam vote, for the 3rd time.

Regular guys have attended all these meetings, at detriment to their livelihoods, etc, only to have the fellas in YOUR INDUSTRY, know if they drag things out, via process, they can weed guys out.

While outfitters, who don't work 9-5 jobs, are great with random Tuesday at 10 meetings, the majority OF THE PAYING PUBLIC, has jobs.

Why aren't meetings at 7pm?

Why not Sat?

It's super easy to sit back, claim mileage in taxes, write off hotels as buisness expense, and wag you finger at people who can't.

It's in YOUR BUISNESS INTEREST to attend WB. You make a living off of wildlife. I don't. Grizz doesn't. Bess doesn't.

We are now on our 5th, go round on cams. Because YOUR industry sees a big hit to their bottom line. Not because normal dudes didn't engage. But because YOUR INDUSTRY is trying to drag it out.

If the cam vote stays the same, on the 10th, are we going to then listen to how guys don't care because they don't show up in court?
 
The cam thing is garbage. I have no bone in that fight other than to say it needs to end. I won’t be attending on the 10th to listen to the grumblings, I hope the board stands fast. It’s the right thing to do.

All I’m saying hoss is that the state hasn’t done anything to help the guys who pay the bills for a long time. They continue to pander to the dude with the big stick tho. I hope it changes, I think it is. It’s gonna take some big stick guys making noise to do it though.
 
Example.

I went to the waterfowl RAC.

The DWR proposed a 2week close on geese during the rifle deer hunt to extend goose hunt.

Million dollar club complained they would lose "bookable days" during ice off. They were THE ONLY ones complaining. The other dozen or so, supported the split.


Go check the proclaimation. The clubs around Brigham City got their own goose season.

Now, every guy, who showed up, who took the time, who testified, got that *special season" shoved down their throats, because AFTER the RAC, some deep pockets called the DWR.

That's not the only example, it happens all the time.

So after a few of those wastes of time, it creates apathy. Apathy wasn't the start, it's created.
 
The cam thing is garbage. I have no bone in that fight other than to say it needs to end. I won’t be attending on the 10th to listen to the grumblings, I hope the board stands fast. It’s the right thing to do.

All I’m saying hoss is that the state hasn’t done anything to help the guys who pay the bills for a long time. They continue to pander to the dude with the big stick tho. I hope it changes, I think it is. It’s gonna take some big stick guys making noise to do it though.


That's not the average dudes fault. Not a fault of not caring.

It's the result of the WB being dictated by special interest.

Wade Heaton. A guide, outfitter, is in the WB. Are we to believe he won't vote against his own buisness interests?

Bateman, and as a guide, and $fw member.

At some point, dudes see the stacked deck
 
I like how you believe business owners who's livelihood depend on wildlife should get no representation on the WB.
 
I believe the pendulum is beginning to shift, some of the guys who propped up the system for the last decade are seeing its shortcomings and money is shifting purposes. The antelope island deer tag sale on Friday is a glaring example, and while I won’t elaborate on what happened with it, it sent a very clear message to the powers that be, that there are people in the state in places that can make change that are fed up. Hope it continues.
I want to know more about this, it is a public spectacle, let the public that wasn't there know about it.
 

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