Utah and the little Circus

>Don....uh, er...Tristate. SHUT UP!


Uh, yes sa' massa'. I'z be sorray fo speakin'. Please donce be upset massa'.

Seriously, my name is Ben. Don't know Don. I also find it amusing how all these folks on here rant and rave about how Democracy works with one side of their face and then tell people to shutup with the other.
 
There were several morons there that thought the contract needed to be changed. But actually all UWC wants and is asking for is transparency and accountability. Like I said before, if you actually read the convention rule back from 2005 it says there should be accountability and transparency. Don agreed to it. Now the problem is that nobody has actually done that. Those words came from Mr. K at the meeting. Mr K said that "there is no real finincial auding of either organizations" The problem is two things. 1st) the majority are not satisfied with an expenditure list of costs associated with an expo. The majority want alittle more detail than that. 2nd)SFW crys because that would mean a net loss of approx. 900k per year.

Nobody is asking to change a contract. They simply want to see where the money is going.







Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife, and the conservation of all our natural resources, are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall be exploited by the few against the interests of the majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural resources for the public as a whole, for the average man and the average woman who make up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of means."
 
>>Don....uh, er...Tristate. SHUT UP!
>
>
>Uh, yes sa' massa'. I'z
>be sorray fo speakin'.
>Please donce be upset massa'.
>
>
>Seriously, my name is Ben.
>Don't know Don. I
>also find it amusing how
>all these folks on here
>rant and rave about how
>Democracy works with one side
>of their face and then
>tell people to shutup with
>the other.

"Ben" or "Don"......"Potato" or "Potatoe".......... riiiiigggghhhhhttttt;) I'll play along....so sworry! Post away DP....er, BP!
 
The amendment from UWC states what is already in the contract (convention rule from 2005)

Why do you have such a hard time figuring this out.
Maybe your just trying to be argumentive.



Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife, and the conservation of all our natural resources, are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall be exploited by the few against the interests of the majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural resources for the public as a whole, for the average man and the average woman who make up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of means."
 
"There were several morons there that thought the contract needed to be changed."

First this.

"Nobody is asking to change a contract."

Then this.

All in the same post. Do you realize you can't keep track of your own lies?
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-20-12 AT 10:41AM (MST)[p]We have all had fun accusing Ben of being Don. Ben Cromeens is of course not Don. He is a Taxidermist in Houston, Texas. You can read what his customers have to say about him in the links below.
http://www.superpages.com/bp/Houston-TX/TriState-Taxidermy-L2051510791.htm#BPreviewContainer
http://www.texashuntfish.com/app/view/Post/32586/Taxidermist-Lost-My-Cape-This-Year

So why is a Texas taxidermist, so interested in making a case for $FW? Why does he pay such close attention to Utah politics and wildlife management? Everyone here can see how similar his arguements are to Don's, hence the accusations.

So is Mr. Cromeens just getting his blood, so to speak. Commiting his "act" for the gang, trying to get off the street to become a lieutenant? Maybe he is going to be the "Don" for the Texas syndicate.

The question still remains. Why is this guy attempting to carry water for $FW, on a Utah issue? Why is he supposedly so up to date on the welfare system in Utah, and the welfare queens cashing in? Why is he so concerned with the Utah Wildlife Board? Everyone here is vested in this debate in some way. This is evident in our level of participation, and how we embrace certain ideas. Ben tries to distance himself from directly supporting $FW, while at the same time he pleads their case. And this is the best arguement for $FW/BGF=MDF to be found anywhere since Jim Karpowitz left here.
 
trollstate, are you ever going to give up?

every thread on here you argue and fight.

GIVE IT UP ALREADY! Let it die.
 
Hahahhahhahaha! Stillwater, don't you find it a little odd that you actually are taking time out of your day trying to figure out things about me?????? Sounds like without me you might not even have a life. And you know whats even funnier. I don't give a flying flip who you are. Go dig for dirt. You don't have to worry I am not going to pull your skeletons out here. I am a little more grown up than that.
 
I will actualy have to give credit to some one else, for the background on you. My only effort was a quick read.

As to my skeletons, have at it. I've dropped a few bones along the trail.

So tell us why you are so vested in this?
 
I would ask that you not giveup. Rather You could stick around and tell us what your investment in all of this is? Maybe it is just pro-welfare lobbying in general.
 
Tristate brought up an interesting point (not sure if it was this post or not, too much dribble to wade through to find it) about the NAMWC being out of date, and not registering effectively with current wildlife management/conservation methods. Maybe he has a point, maybe not. If it should be updated to reflect current wildlife management/conservation methods, I would as him how he sees that being done and implemented. I am curious to say the least.


www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
Yall are going to have fun with this one.

1: Gut USFWS and make them a shell of their former selves.
2: Re-write the endangered species act so it is a realistic law.
3: Scrap the marine mammal protection act.
4: Legalize hunting of songbirds, shorebirds, and raptors.
5: Whipe out the draws. All tags become over the counter or auction.
6: Make wildlife boards electable positions where only practicing professionals get to sit on them. Each Board must have a Wildlife biologist, an economist, a lawyer, and a veterinarian on the board. At the end of term when elections are up a statewide survey showing health of herds now compaired to beginning of term must be presented to the public along with a complete budget track for their term.


This would be just a start. Have fun.
 
>Yall are going to have fun
>with this one.
>
>1: Gut USFWS and make them
>a shell of their former
>selves.
>2: Re-write the endangered species
>act so it is a
>realistic law.
>3: Scrap the marine mammal
>protection act.
>4: Legalize hunting of songbirds,
>shorebirds, and raptors.
>5: Whipe out the draws.
> All tags become over
>the counter or auction.
>6: Make wildlife boards electable
>positions where only practicing professionals
>get to sit on them.
> Each Board must have
>a Wildlife biologist, an economist,
>a lawyer, and a veterinarian
>on the board. At
>the end of term when
>elections are up a statewide
>survey showing health of herds
>now compaired to beginning of
>term must be presented to
>the public along with a
>complete budget track for their
>term.
>
>
>This would be just a start.
> Have fun.

None of this addresses the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. These things are all peripheral to the model. Much like most of the semi-related arguements you press. This fundamental misunderstanding does not surprise me. People with your slant, do not know or understand the model.
 
Carry on TROLL BATE








"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
Appreciate the response Tristate. Curious list, not quite what I imagined. I would have to agree with Stillwaterhunter for the most part. But, for the sake of meaningful exploration, could you elaborate just a bit on the over the counter tags and auction tags? How would you determine the number of auction tags and how would they be administered? With over the counter tags, would there be a set amount? Would hunters be relegated to hunt zones or statewide?

www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
None of this addresses the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation. These things are all peripheral to the model. Much like most of the semi-related arguements you press. This fundamental misunderstanding does not surprise me. People with your slant, do not know or understand the model.

Actually slick, almost everything in the list is involved with NAM. As for what I know, when you spent all that time trying to dig up my past you should have found I hold a degree in Wildlife and Fisheries sciences. I had to spend hours of my life reading and studying the NAM. More than likely it is you that is clueless. As for what model should be adopted I would leave that up to each state. What works best for Wildlife models vary widely, and should, depending on what species are involved, and the goals of each state. No one model is the way to go. That is why you have seen such a large deviation across the US from NAM.
 
Do wildlife understand state borders tritroll?? Do waterfowl migrate?? How about doves??









"The future is large scale auction tags.
The majority of the tags should go up
for auction anually. It MIGHT even be
good to allow second sales of auction
tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
and then re-selling them to the public."
TRISTATE 8/17/2012
 
>Appreciate the response Tristate. Curious
>list, not quite what I
>imagined. I would have
>to agree with Stillwaterhunter for
>the most part. But,
>for the sake of meaningful
>exploration, could you elaborate just
>a bit on the over
>the counter tags and auction
>tags? How would you
>determine the number of auction
>tags and how would they
>be administered?

That would be up to each wildlife board in each state. It would be based on economic factors for recieving the maximum amount of income for each state wildlife agency. No two states are alike so they would each have to develop their own formula for distribution.
With over
>the counter tags, would there
>be a set amount?

I am sure for some species there would be and for some species there would not be. Tag availibility could only be determined after proper wildlife census techniques are used.

>Would hunters be relegated to
>hunt zones or statewide?

Again this would be up to each state but more than likely zones would still exist.
>
>www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
Troll-state

Your list is peripheral. The things you mentioned, and the ways in which they could be addressed, would fall under the 7 tenets of the North American Model of Wildlife Conservation.

We are talking about the founding frame work, while you are talking about interpretive implementation under that greater umbrella.

You dodged the question, like most of the questions that are posed to you.

As for digging up dirt on you. I never picked up a shovel, it seems your fellow Texans dont care much for you, they did all the digging.
 
Interesting. For the sake of simplicity and your obvious interest in Utah, let's keep things relative to that state, especially since you think each state should have it's own model.

"That would be up to each wildlife board in each state. It would be based on economic factors for receiving the maximum amount of income for each state wildlife agency. No two states are alike so they would each have to develop their own formula for distribution."

What economic factors are you talking about, and wouldn't the "maximum amount of income for each state wildlife agency" derived from auction tags come from auctioning ALL of the tags? Again, how would you determine the number of auction tags, and how would they be administered? State auction? Private auction? Conservation orgs auction? Would all of the revenue be available to the state game agency? If not, how much?

I'm just trying to follow your ideology in all of this, since you seem to be so passionate, thanks.



www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
>Do wildlife understand state borders tritroll??
>Do waterfowl migrate?? How about
>doves??
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>"The future is large scale auction
>tags.
>The majority of the tags should
>go up
>for auction anually. It MIGHT even
>be
>good to allow second sales of
>auction
>tags as in outfitters purchasing tags
>
>and then re-selling them to the
>public."
>TRISTATE 8/17/2012

No they don't recognize borders. Do you have a point?
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-20-12 AT 03:30PM (MST)[p]>Troll-state
>
>Your list is peripheral. The things
>you mentioned, and the ways
>in which they could be
>addressed, would fall under the
>7 tenets of the North
>American Model of Wildlife Conservation.

Not all of it. Some of it involves management even beyond our continent. Plus that was just the start. Plus I find it humorous that other members here have said some of these ideas violate NAM back when we had discussions about them.
>
>
>We are talking about the founding
>frame work, while you are
>talking about interpretive implementation under
>that greater umbrella.

I was talking about the umbrella, the critters under it and the rain hitting it. If you are too dense to understand I apologize.

>
>You dodged the question, like most
>of the questions that are
>posed to you.

Actually I am the one person on these forums that answers every question put to me.

>
>As for digging up dirt on
>you. I never picked up
>a shovel, it seems your
>fellow Texans dont care much
>for you, they did all
>the digging.

Yes you found three posts on the internet of people who claim not to like me. My world is shattered. Credibility, who need it? For all you know two of the posts might be my competitors.
 
"What economic factors are you talking about,"

There are many and they can vary from state to state. Private vs. public land amounts can be important. Species available for hunting. State can choose to manage heavier for populations of animals that they have better margins in selling tags for. Bow hunting vs rifle. Etc. Etc.

" and wouldn't the "maximum amount of income for each state wildlife agency" derived from auction tags come from auctioning ALL of the tags?"

Maybe maybe not. Each state would probably be different depending on average income of residents and amount of non-residents they allow to hunt.


" Again, how would you determine the number of auction tags, and how would they be administered? State auction? Private auction? Conservation orgs auction?"

I would not determine the number of auction tags, the board would. It would be ballanced between sustained harvest and maximum fiscal gain for the state. As for whether the state would do it or, private organizations, that really doesn't matter to me. State can decide what works best for it. If the state wants to keep its finger on every tag. No problem. If the state feels they can help conservation by giving tags to private organizations, no problem.


"Would all of the revenue be available to the state game agency? If not, how much?"

I think that would be up to the state. If they decided they needed all of it, no problem. If they decided they only needed a little, no problem.
 
>Thanks. Those answers didn't surprise
>me much. Appreciate you
>taking the time to respond.
> As a final thought
>for now, what do you
>see the roll of Wildlife
>Conservation Organizations filling?


More than likely they will fill in some of the gaps left by the state agencies. Plus in certian instances they may be able to outperform the state agencies in effficiency so they can serve a purpose there. Also they may be used as lobbying fronts to be used as legal swords. Pretty much most of the things they do now, some better than others. If they are not needed the people will quit joining and spending money with them and they will fade away. If the state is dropping the ball on something more than likely they will become impowered.
 
Here is the problem with your thesis tristate. Don is a master at loading up boards with SFW friendly people who vote to support his agenda. How is the public served when this happens and big game hunting becomes a sport of kings? The entire idea of the NAM is to keep hunting affordable for all residents of each state. In your scenario only the wealthy can afford to hunt. No, I don't vote for liberals.
 
I vote Tristate as our Board director for Utah Divison of Wildlife. ASAP!
He's got all the answers and knows what to do to get our wildlife back in order.

Kudos to you my friend....NOT!
Hope you didn't spend too much money for that degree you got.



Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife, and the conservation of all our natural resources, are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall be exploited by the few against the interests of the majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural resources for the public as a whole, for the average man and the average woman who make up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of means."
 
">Here is the problem with your
>thesis tristate. Don is a
>master at loading up boards
>with SFW friendly people who
>vote to support his agenda."

Bummer. Read what I said on how to change wildlife boards and you don't have to worry about Don anymore.

">How is the public served
>when this happens and big
>game hunting becomes a sport
>of kings?"

How will puting tags up for auction make it a sport of kings? There aren't tens of thousands of kings but there are tens of thousands of big game tags in Utah alone? Get past your fear and use logic.

"The entire idea
>of the NAM is to
>keep hunting affordable for all
>residents of each state."

No the idea of Nam is sustainable harvest through conservation and shared responsibility through ownership. Plenty of people can't afford to hunt now, that doesn't mean NAM has been violated or let them down.

"In
>your scenario only the wealthy
>can afford to hunt. No,
>I don't vote for liberals."

No, in my scenario about just as many people get to hunt as are hunting now. The difference is the next generation will have fewer opportunities under the current system and more opportunity under my system. More money means more wildlife which means more hunting opportunity.
 
"Kudos to you my friend....NOT!
Hope you didn't spend too much money for that degree you got."

Why? It has paid itself in spades.
 
Troll-state

More money does not equal more wildlife. In the last 20 years, budgets have swelled, and millions of dollars have been added to agencies and conservation organizations. Much of this began with a promise to save the deer herds in Utah. 20 years later, millions more dollars, no more deer. Its failed policy, its failed philosophy, its failed ideology. You dont know from where you speak.

What is your vested interest in this?
 
>">Here is the problem with your
>>thesis tristate. Don is a
>>master at loading up boards
>>with SFW friendly people who
>>vote to support his agenda."
>
>Bummer. Read what I said
>on how to change wildlife
>boards and you don't have
>to worry about Don anymore.
>
>
>">How is the public served
>>when this happens and big
>>game hunting becomes a sport
>>of kings?"
>
>How will puting tags up for
>auction make it a sport
>of kings? There aren't
>tens of thousands of kings
>but there are tens of
>thousands of big game tags
>in Utah alone? Get
>past your fear and use
>logic.
>
> "The entire idea
>>of the NAM is to
>>keep hunting affordable for all
>>residents of each state."
>
>No the idea of Nam is
>sustainable harvest through conservation and
>shared responsibility through ownership. Plenty
>of people can't afford to
>hunt now, that doesn't mean
>NAM has been violated or
>let them down.
>
> "In
>>your scenario only the wealthy
>>can afford to hunt. No,
>>I don't vote for liberals."
>
>No, in my scenario about just
>as many people get to
>hunt as are hunting now.
> The difference is the
>next generation will have fewer
>opportunities under the current system
>and more opportunity under my
>system. More money means
>more wildlife which means more
>hunting opportunity.


This has to be the most entertaining thread EVER....no, wait. The debate thread where Don wanted Randy to go on a Gilligan's Island three hour tour was funnier....sorry dkpeay...er, I mean, Tristate:/ You're going to have to work harder on your material before those banquets kick up again. Post away!
 
Stillwater, go back and read my proposal. Look at the line Of accountability for the board. If the board is not performing to expectation elect guys that will. You want to measure the failure of your twenty million. Come visit Texas we have a higher population deNsity than Utah, and you can purchase An over the counter tag or a landowner permit for every species offered here and we have a hunting industRy worth BILLIONS! By the way money can't defeat all. We had the worst drought in the states history last year and much of Our wildlife suffered greatly. However I can tell you without our enormous infrastructure for wildlife developed with disgustingly large piles of money over decades of investment, the outcome and recovery would have been much worse.

As for my vested interest I have answered that question time and time again. The future of hunting is at stake. I am trying to make sure it has a future.
 
>Stillwater, go back and read my
>proposal. Look at the
>line Of accountability for the
>board. If the board
>is not performing to expectation
>elect guys that will.
>You want to measure the
>failure of your twenty million.
> Come visit Texas we
>have a higher population deNsity
>than Utah, and you can
>purchase An over the counter
>tag or a landowner permit
>for every species offered here
>and we have a hunting
>industRy worth BILLIONS! By
>the way money can't defeat
>all. We had the
>worst drought in the states
>history last year and much
>of Our wildlife suffered greatly.
> However I can tell
>you without our enormous infrastructure
>for wildlife developed with disgustingly
>large piles of money over
>decades of investment, the outcome
>and recovery would have been
>much worse.
>
>As for my vested interest I
>have answered that question time
>and time again. The
>future of hunting is at
>stake. I am trying
>to make sure it has
>a future.

As for the future of hunting, the past is prologue here in Utah. 20 years of broken promises, andbroken systems.

Your proposal about holding the Wildlife Board accountable, goes hand in hand with the UWC's rule amendment for convention(expo) tags.

What Utahns are up against, is money being taken directly away from wildlife and put towards non wildlife related things. All under the guise of this benefiting wildlife. Auctioning conservation tags and raising money for conservation, is a great program. At its core intent is wildlife conservation. Convention(expo) tags, have the potential to be just as good for wildlife as conservation tags. But until the same rules of the conservation tag program are applied to convention(expo) tags. There will forever be a cloud hanging over them, the money they generate, and the people that pocket that money. The rules to bring about this change were agreed to years ago by people that now profit from them not being enforced. This has to be remedied, if wildlife is to benefit in any way from this sham.
 
>
">As for the future of hunting,
>the past is prologue here
>in Utah. 20 years of
>broken promises, andbroken systems. "

Sounds like a bummer.
>
>"Your proposal about holding the Wildlife
>Board accountable, goes hand in
>hand with the UWC's rule
>amendment for convention(expo) tags. "

Nope you are mistaken. You want to cry until the mean old men do what you want. I want the whole system gutted. Not just because of accountability but for a real chance for people who understand business and wildlife to take the reigns.

>
>"What Utahns are up against, is
>money being taken directly away
>from wildlife and put towards
>non wildlife related things. All
>under the guise of this
>benefiting wildlife. Auctioning conservation tags
>and raising money for conservation,
>is a great program. At
>its core intent is wildlife
>conservation. Convention(expo) tags, have the
>potential to be just as
>good for wildlife as conservation
>tags. But until the same
>rules of the conservation tag
>program are applied to convention(expo)
>tags. There will forever be
>a cloud hanging over them,
>the money they generate, and
>the people that pocket that
>money. The rules to bring
>about this change were agreed
>to years ago by people
>that now profit from them
>not being enforced. This has
>to be remedied, if wildlife
>is to benefit in any
>way from this sham. "

If allocation of less than %1 of your tags for a project is your reason for failure in your state you have way bigger problems than the stupid tags. The fact is this is a side show that even your DNR is happy that you entertain. The longer you think these drops in a bucket are the reason for your despair, the less they have to worry about dumb masses ever dealing with the real issues.
 
It is not the 1% of tags that is specifically the problem. As I said before. Auctioned conservation tags have been quite the success story for Uath wildlife. Bighorn sheep are a prime example of this.

It is groups like $FW/BGF=MDF that rely almost solely on convention(expo) tags to fund themselves. That is the problem, it is welfare. They in turn use that funding to put in place policy that is bad for Utah wildlife and hunters. While promising bigger deer herds for the last 20 years. In that same time, tags have been cut in half twice.

They hire Wildlife Board members as CEOs, as they stack the Wildlife Board in their favor. This is how they get things like convention(expo) tags. There is nothing in place to see that the money they generate from convention(expo) tags, goes directly on the ground, to wildlife. Which is very similar to how alot of anti hunting groups work. They promise that what they are doing benefits wildlife. While in reality it is all marketing, and most of the money never hits the ground. This is no different than letting welfare mothers write their own welfare checks, with no oversight. The fox guarding the hen house.
 
Stillwater hit the nail on the head in post 132. SFW wants everyone to think that more money means more wildlife to see. But what there not telling you and it's not hard to figure out is....that the more money they bring in, the more money they make. NOT that the money means better herds. Look at the herd numbers over the last 5 years that they've been getting convention tags....things aren't getting better.





Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife, and the conservation of all our natural resources, are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall be exploited by the few against the interests of the majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural resources for the public as a whole, for the average man and the average woman who make up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of means."
 
>It is not the 1% of
>tags that is specifically the
>problem. As I said before.
>Auctioned conservation tags have been
>quite the success story for
>Uath wildlife. Bighorn sheep are
>a prime example of this.
>
>
>It is groups like $FW/BGF=MDF that
>rely almost solely on convention(expo)
>tags to fund themselves. That
>is the problem, it is
>welfare. They in turn use
>that funding to put in
>place policy that is bad
>for Utah wildlife and hunters.
>While promising bigger deer herds
>for the last 20 years.
>In that same time, tags
>have been cut in half
>twice.
>
>They hire Wildlife Board members as
>CEOs, as they stack the
>Wildlife Board in their favor.
>This is how they get
>things like convention(expo) tags. There
>is nothing in place to
>see that the money they
>generate from convention(expo) tags, goes
>directly on the ground, to
>wildlife. Which is very similar
>to how alot of anti
>hunting groups work. They promise
>that what they are doing
>benefits wildlife. While in reality
>it is all marketing, and
>most of the money never
>hits the ground. This is
>no different than letting welfare
>mothers write their own welfare
>checks, with no oversight. The
>fox guarding the hen house.


Still less than %1. If that's what crushes the system, you have way bigger problems than SFW. If the fox is guarding the hen house all he's getting is a toenail, some feathers and a bunch of chicken*!#t. Meanwhile the rotten wood in the hen house is about to crash on the your hens but your too worried about foxes to notice.

I tell you what. I have been answering your questions now answer one of mine please. What is making deer numbers decline in Utah?
 
Tristate keeps talking about this 1% acting like that doesn't mean much. He obviously doesn't know how much money we're talking about here. We're talking about 1% yes but your talking 900k per year of money that we know would go back toward the wildlife. That's some GOOD money annually for projects.....that we KNOW is going back where it should.

Not 900k to some org that says "trust us.....we'll spend it wisely"



Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife, and the conservation of all our natural resources, are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall be exploited by the few against the interests of the majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural resources for the public as a whole, for the average man and the average woman who make up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of means."
 
Oh for hell's sake! The natural progression of things, seriously you're giving me a brain cramp trying to dumb myself down!

Here's the truth: Stable numbers of mule deer is a success. The promise of seeing those herds in numbers like SFW obloviates about will NEVER happen. Why? Because, are you ready for it? The same damn reason we don't have the Woolie Mammoth or Caveman....mother natures cycles. Unfortunately, a combination of man, natural predators, and habitat age is what it is.

There is no reason the WB can justify to reject the proposal from UWC and the general public. They make loads of money on the booths and vendors alone....you're making me tired.
 
A lot of things are.

#1 SFW
#2 predators
#3 habitat destruction
#4 drought
#5 poaching
#6 DWR issuing too many tags for certain units
#7 lack of winter range
#8 board members trying to make personnel gains
I'm sure there are more. But here's a few
What's your point?
BTW....do you like which one I put first?






Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife, and the conservation of all our natural resources, are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and method."

"We do not intend that our natural resources shall be exploited by the few against the interests of the majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural resources for the public as a whole, for the average man and the average woman who make up the body of the American people."

"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of means."
 
>
>Tristate keeps talking about this 1%
>acting like that doesn't mean
>much. He obviously doesn't know
>how much money we're talking
>about here. We're talking about
>1% yes but your talking
>900k per year of money
>that we know would go
>back toward the wildlife. That's
>some GOOD money annually for
>projects.....that we KNOW is going
>back where it should.
>
>Not 900k to some org that
>says "trust us.....we'll spend it
>wisely"


It's PEANUTS! You could take control of something at the very least is worth hundreds of millions but you are to busy thinking 900k is your savior.
 
>"Here's the truth: Stable numbers
>of mule deer is
>a success. "


wise up boy stable numbers is a disgusting FAILURE! In this day and age if numbers are not increasing you are guaranteeing that the next generation of hunters will have less opportunity than you did.

"The promise
>of seeing those herds in
>numbers like SFW obloviates about
>will NEVER happen. Why?
> Because, are you ready
>for it? The same
>damn reason we don't have
>the Woolie Mammoth or Caveman....mother
>natures cycles. Unfortunately, a
>combination of man, natural predators,
>and habitat age is what
>it is. "

Absolutely pitiful excuses for failure.
>
>"There is no reason the WB
>can justify to reject the
>proposal from UWC and the
>general public. "

Risk of legal dispute that could damage all associated parties including the DNR is plenty of reason to reject the UWC proposal.

"They make
>loads of money on the
>booths and vendors alone....you're making
>me tired. "

They must be evil if they make loads of money. I find it amusing that people claim there is no transparency but they know how much money the SFW is making.
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

LAST EDITED ON Aug-20-12 AT 08:44PM (MST)[p]Does anyone here besides Tristate know how the system works in good ol' Texas? I didn't so I've been trying to sort it out for some time now (off and on) in order to see where Tristate was coming from and here's what I discovered. Disclaimer, I think I got most of it right, but the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, the landowners, the federal agencies and the conservation organizations are so intertwined when it comes to issuing licenses and permits it's hard to sort it out.

1)Texas has only two statewide draws. One is called Big Time Hunts and it's for 7 separate hunts which include some for waterfowl or upland birds or whitetail or an alligator, and a package called the Grand Slam (Whitetail, Mule Deer, Pronghorn and Desert Bighorn Sheep). These hunts are drawn in a lottery form with a $9 online application fee or a $10 retail vendor or phone-in fee plus a $5 fee per transaction with no limit on the number of entries per person. In 2011 there were 62,610 entries. The second draw is for each of 2 Lifetime Super Combo Licenses at $5 per entry, no limit on the number of entries, residents only. So, the more expedible money you have, the more entries you can submit and the better your chances of winning. I couldn't find the number of entries for this drawing, but since there are a reported 1,000,000 hunters (The vast majority are dove hunters.), that doesn't seem like a lot who enter the drawings.

2)Texas has only 1.1 million acres of public provided hunter accessible land (State Parks, National Forest and Grasslands, wildlife Management Areas and lands leased from private landowners. (Utah has 29.8 million hunter accessible public lands in deer habitat.) The rest of Texas is mostly private land where hunters are charged a fee for hunting, if hunting is allowed.

3)Some deer permits are given to landowners in a program similar to CWMU's. It's a 3-step program where the landowner has to submit a request for tags based on acreage, deer population, buck to doe ratio, etc. This permits are given with no strings attached other than the hunter has to also buy a license. Unlike our CWMU's there are no public permits. The landowner can charge what he wants and keeps all of the money. The price? I've found it from $1,500 for an 8 point with 15" spread (Shonto Ranch) to $14,500 for a 190"-199" (888 Ranch). Most are $2,500 to $7,500 and ALL are based on antler score. Does are cheaper, obviously, about $750. However, most permits are sold over the counter, but like Utah, that doesn't guarentee access to private property and, for the most part, and access fees still apply (see prices below).

4)There are about 15-16 Desert Bighorn permits issued with only 20%-25% (3-4) of them issued to the Wildlife Department. The rest go to private land owners. Of the 3-4 TPWD, one of them is in the Grand Slam package and at least one is donated to the Wild Sheep Foundation for auction. I think the auctioned permits have the 90%-10% rule we do. In any case, the 2012 tag went for $85,000 (plus a 5% buyers premium, whatever that is.) at the WSF Convention in RENO, NV.

5) Turkey permits are much like deer. Most are in the hands of landowners with the rates about $300.

6) Pronghorn, ditto with prices at about $1,750-$2,500.

7)The exotics and wild boar require a license, but are not regulated otherwise and the landowners are able to charge whatever the going rate ($750 for pigs and up to $3,000 for some of the others.) Elk are $4,250 for a 330'-350' to $7,500 for a 370"-400"

8)There are about 4 million whitetail but only about 180,000 mule deer. The whitetail are doing fine because most of them are on private land and are adaptable and some of the ranch limits are as high as 5. The mule deer are in decline, same as Utah, and aren't doing as well.

9)The dove hunters far outnumber any other species hunters and are pretty much carrying the load. They also pay landowners to hunt, but by the day ($100-$200 per day) instead of the trophy value.

All in all, I'd say there's a lot of hunting money floating around in Texas, but has it helped mule deer. Nah! Their numbers are down 35% (down to 180,000 from 280,000) due to the drought over the last 3 years and they aren't expected to recover for several more years even if the drought ends.

Tristate, I'm sure you will have your own spin on this, but if some can't afford to hunt now, as you say, how many more will it be under this type of system?

Another point: Several times over your last few posts, you've said each state should develope it's own system, but apparently Utah isn't included. I thought that's what we were doing at the meeting when you begin your objection to our proposal.

And one last question you haven't answered. What is your real vested interest in Utah's wildlife management? It seems to me that you'd be better off spending your time and energy making Texas hunting more affordable to more people.
 
"Still less than %1. If that's what crushes the system, you have way bigger problems than SFW. If the fox is guarding the hen house all he's getting is a toenail, some feathers and a bunch of chicken*!#t. Meanwhile the rotten wood in the hen house is about to crash on the your hens but your too worried about foxes to notice.

I tell you what. I have been answering your questions now answer one of mine please. What is making deer numbers decline in Utah?"

T-

We have heard your toe nail and feathers arguement. If that were the case, then there should be no resistence to the UWC's proposal. If this welfare check is just chicken feed, then why cant they live without it? Every other conservation organization does just fine without welfare. Beside at the current numbers they only averaging $5000 per tag. That is why they have to keep such a large percentage of the take, inefficiency. If they were a private business on the open market, they would go under, just like Solyndra. Those are abysmal, yawn inspiring numbers. The conservation tags on the other hand fetch good money, with at least 90% of it going back on the ground for wildlife. Where it was taken from in the first place.

Also if you look at the individual hunts that these convention(expo) tags are pulled from. They affect those hunts, and hunters, by far more than 1%. All for minimal profits, that don't go back to the wildlife, from which they were taken from.

Maybe you should stick to Texas. You do not seem to understand anything about what is occurring in Utah.

As for declining mule deer numbers. They are declining in Utah for the same reasons that they are declining everywhere. Which is why some welfare orgs in Utah can not possibly turn that tide. Even though they have been promising to do so for 20 years, with no results. $portsmen For Welfare has failed like Obama's stimulus, yet we are to believe that doubling down is going to make it better?
 
"wise up boy stable numbers is a disgusting FAILURE! In this day and age if numbers are not increasing you are guaranteeing that the next generation of hunters will have less opportunity than you did."

This is exactly why $FW/BGF=MDF, and their Wildlife Board is a failure. 20 years, millions of dollars, no accounting, no more deer. Just more hands out for welfare checks.
 
>A lot of things are.
>
>"#1 SFW "

What? Is SFW shooting up all your deer and then plowing rock salt into the earth? Grow up.

>"#2 predators "

Kill'em.

>"#3 habitat destruction "

Make more habitat for them.

>"#4 drought "

Not as important as you think in most cases with mule deer ,but pray for rain and spend money on water development projects.

">#5 poaching "

Get more game wardens


>#6 DWR issuing too many tags
>for certain units "

Slash the tags and raise the prices on them where needed.


">#7 lack of winter range "

Make more winter range.

>"#8 board members trying to make
>personnel gains "

My plan makes it so you can get rid of them.

>"I'm sure there are more. But
>here's a few
>What's your point? "

When you are realistic there is nothing on your list that can not be handled with proper management.

>"BTW....do you like which one I
>put first? "

Just shows you bought it hook line and sinker.
 
>"wise up boy stable numbers is
>a disgusting FAILURE! In this
>day and age if numbers
>are not increasing you are
>guaranteeing that the next generation
>of hunters will have less
>opportunity than you did."
>
>This is exactly why $FW/BGF=MDF, and
>their Wildlife Board is a
>failure. 20 years, millions of
>dollars, no accounting, no more
>deer. Just more hands out
>for welfare checks.

Then do it better. It's easier for lazy tittybabies to cry about someone else's failure than it is to pull up their boots and show the world how it's done. Nobody follows anyone who cries about some one else. The world follows winners. If you want people to join the UWC and leave the SFW show the world you can succeed where they failed.
 
>"We have heard your toe nail
>and feathers arguement. If that
>were the case, then there
>should be no resistence to
>the UWC's proposal. If this
>welfare check is just chicken
>feed, then why cant they
>live without it? Every other
>conservation organization does just fine
>without welfare. Beside at the
>current numbers they only averaging
>$5000 per tag. That is
>why they have to keep
>such a large percentage of
>the take, inefficiency. If they
>were a private business on
>the open market, they would
>go under, just like Solyndra.
>Those are abysmal, yawn inspiring
>numbers. The conservation tags on
>the other hand fetch good
>money, with at least 90%
>of it going back on
>the ground for wildlife. Where
>it was taken from in
>the first place. "

blah blah blah. Your dodging the question.
>
>"Also if you look at the
>individual hunts that these convention(expo)
>tags are pulled from.
>They affect those hunts, and
>hunters, by far more than
>1%. All for minimal profits,
>that don't go back to
>the wildlife, from which they
>were taken from. "

Bla bla blah blah sorry all I here is you beating the same horse that I couldn't give a flip about. You are still dodging.
>
>"Maybe you should stick to Texas.
>You do not seem to
>understand anything about what is
>occurring in Utah. "

Blahblahblah still dodging while you trash talk.
>
>"As for declining mule deer numbers.
>They are declining in Utah
>for the same reasons that
>they are declining everywhere. "

Finaly you attempt to face an actual question and you FAIL! That was the worse brush off answer you could have given. No wonder your deer are doomed. You know more about hating other hunters than you actually know about deer. Pathetic.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-20-12 AT 08:04PM (MST)[p]Why are you guys wasting your time with this troll? it's obvious he gets his jollies out of taking over a website and pissing everyone off! The guy says he's got a fancy degree in wildlife biology of some sort and yet he's running a taxidermy shop for God's sake. That should tell everyone he's a failure at what he chose to do in life just like he's a failure on this site professing to know everything there is to know on how to cure all your problems in Utah. On top of that he makes claims about his home state of Texas being so fantastic for hunting opportunities when it's probably #50 on the list of states for hunting opportunities for the average guy. 99% of the state is private property and if you don't have lots of money to spend on a lease you don't hunt. Period, end of story. Good leases in Texas just to hunt deer are in the thousands of dollars per gun and don't let him tell you any different. When all the land is private property and the land owners are only interested in money, they do whatever it takes to have a good game population and that, in turn, costs money. That cost is passed on to the hunter and he either pays it or watches football every Fall weekend instead of being out in the field hunting!
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

"Then do it better. It's easier for lazy tittybabies to cry about someone else's failure than it is to pull up their boots and show the world how it's done. Nobody follows anyone who cries about some one else. The world follows winners. If you want people to join the UWC and leave the SFW show the world you can succeed where they failed."

That should be easy. Everyone seems to be shying away from $FW. And the UWC has not made any grandiose, unfullfillable promises. They have however put forth a proposal to see that money generated for wildlife, actualy goes back on the ground for wildlife. They promote conservation, especially hands on participation from thier membership. And best of all, they have disavowed taking welfare tag money.
 
>
>>"Here's the truth: Stable numbers
>>of mule deer is
>>a success. "
>
>
>wise up boy stable numbers is
>a disgusting FAILURE! In
>this day and age if
>numbers are not increasing you
>are guaranteeing that the next
>generation of hunters will have
>less opportunity than you did.
>
>
>"The promise
>>of seeing those herds in
>>numbers like SFW obloviates about
>>will NEVER happen. Why?
>> Because, are you ready
>>for it? The same
>>damn reason we don't have
>>the Woolie Mammoth or Caveman....mother
>>natures cycles. Unfortunately, a
>>combination of man, natural predators,
>>and habitat age is what
>>it is. "
>
>Absolutely pitiful excuses for failure.
>>
>>"There is no reason the WB
>>can justify to reject the
>>proposal from UWC and the
>>general public. "
>
>Risk of legal dispute that could
>damage all associated parties including
>the DNR is plenty of
>reason to reject the UWC
>proposal.
>
>"They make
>>loads of money on the
>>booths and vendors alone....you're making
>>me tired. "
>
>They must be evil if they
>make loads of money.
>I find it amusing that
>people claim there is no
>transparency but they know how
>much money the SFW is
>making.


Dear GAWD! You sir, are a driviling echo of a sorry excuse for a certain person (Don Peay) who created the pathetic solutions that HAVE NOT WORKED and WON'T! Man cannot replace mother nature and the only control over humans that will make a difference for wildlife is the same kind of "control" Japan places on the number of children a couple is allowed to have. I don't have a problem with a PRIVATE COMPANY making money. In fact, I encourage it. I, and most sportsmen, have a major malfunction with a PRIVATE COMPANY making money from a public resource (tags that come out of the public draw!!!!!!) without accounting for every damned dime associated with those tags! So, enjoy riling people up on here, I still stand by what I've said publicly about you all along and will gladly say it face to face, you're a hypocritical horses butt DON! (I say ass generally, but I'm feeling generous tonight)
 
>LAST EDITED ON Aug-20-12
>AT 08:04?PM (MST)
>
>Why are you guys wasting your
>time with this troll?
>it's obvious he gets his
>jollies out of taking over
>a website and pissing everyone
>off! The guy says
>he's got a fancy degree
>in wildlife biology of some
>sort and yet he's running
>a taxidermy shop for God's
>sake. That should tell
>everyone he's a failure at
>what he chose to do
>in life just like he's
>a failure on this site
>professing to know everything there
>is to know on how
>to cure all your problems
>in Utah. On top
>of that he makes claims
>about his home state of
>Texas being so fantastic for
>hunting opportunities when it's probably
>#50 on the list of
>states for hunting opportunities for
>the average guy. 99%
>of the state is private
>property and if you don't
>have lots of money to
>spend on a lease you
>don't hunt. Period, end
>of story. Good leases
>in Texas just to hunt
>deer are in the thousands
>of dollars per gun and
>don't let him tell you
>any different. When all the
>land is private property and
>the land owners are only
>interested in money, they do
>whatever it takes to have
>a good game population and
>that, in turn, costs money.
> That cost is passed
>on to the hunter and
>he either pays it or
>watches football every Fall weekend
>instead of being out in
>the field hunting!


You are correct:/ Sadly I have fallen for the same drivel spewed on the steps of a big grey building in 1993 and lots of great people with huge concern for wildlife bought into. I am done with the trollstate. Let someone else deal with the putz!
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

Ben

I just wanted to sincerely thank you for prompting my registration on this forum. And thank you kindly for keeping this going. Please dont stop.

I have to get on the road, and wont be able to participate for awhile. I should be able to read more by Saturday. Though by the time I'm back home next week, I will most likely not be replying to anything.

XOXO, Phillip
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

>That should be easy. Everyone seems
>to be shying away from
>$FW. And the UWC has
>not made any grandiose, unfullfillable
>promises. They have however put
>forth a proposal to see
>that money generated for wildlife,
>actualy goes back on the
>ground for wildlife. They promote
>conservation, especially hands on participation
>from thier membership. And best
>of all, they have disavowed
>taking welfare tag money.

You are damn smart! Great post and also thanks to EFA for his work on studying Texas Game "Management".....that makes me want to puke! I would like to see an honest answer to that last question from EFA too:)
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

>"All in all, I'd say there's
>a lot of hunting money
>floating around in Texas, but
>has it helped mule deer.
>Nah! Their numbers are down
>35% (down to 180,000 from
>280,000) due to the drought
>over the last 3 years
>and they aren't expected to
>recover for several more years
>even if the drought ends. "

Yep muley numbers are down. That's what happens when you have the worst drought in recorded history. But no worries we have great infrastructure to help speed up a rebound. Plus muley management first started really gaining steep here about a 15 years ago. This drought has made a lot of people who were not on board into the light. Plus the state has moved the MLD program to muleteer also. One of the upside is that 15 years ago Texas had never entered a muley into the b&c books. Now we have entered several.
>
">Tristate, I'm sure you will have
>your own spin on this,
>but if some can't afford
>to hunt now, as you
>say, how many more will
>it be under this type
>of system? "

Who knows? It could be less. But it's your best chance in the long run for producing results and opportunity.
>
>"Another point: Several times over your
>last few posts, you've said
>each state should develope it's
>own system, but apparently Utah
>isn't included. I thought that's
>what we were doing at
>the meeting when you begin
>your objection to our proposal. "

You weren't trying to change the system you were just trying to grab at control of the same system you have.
>
>
>"And one last question you haven't
>answered. What is your vested
>interest in Utah's wildlife management?
>It seems to me that
>you'd be better off spending
>your time and energy making
>Texas hunting more affordable to
>more people. "

I have answered this question time and time again. If you are too stupid to read my response I will type it no more.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Aug-20-12
>AT 08:04?PM (MST)
>
">Why are you guys wasting your
>time with this troll?
>it's obvious he gets his
>jollies out of taking over
>a website and pissing everyone
>off! The guy says
>he's got a fancy degree
>in wildlife biology of some
>sort and yet he's running
>a taxidermy shop for God's
>sake. That should tell
>everyone he's a failure at
>what he chose to do
>in life just like he's
>a failure on this site
>professing to know everything there
>is to know on how
>to cure all your problems
>in Utah. "

you'd choke if you saw my little taxidermy shop.

"On top
>of that he makes claims
>about his home state of
>Texas being so fantastic for
>hunting opportunities when it's probably
>#50 on the list of
>states for hunting opportunities for
>the average guy. 99%
>of the state is private
>property and if you don't
>have lots of money to
>spend on a lease you
>don't hunt. Period, end
>of story. "

Well that's a flat out lie. I know tons of people who hunt here for no charge.


Good leases
>in Texas just to hunt
>deer are in the thousands
>of dollars per gun and
>don't let him tell you
>any different. When all the
>land is private property and
>the land owners are only
>interested in money, they do
>whatever it takes to have
>a good game population and
>that, in turn, costs money.
> That cost is passed
>on to the hunter and
>he either pays it or
>watches football every Fall weekend
>instead of being out in
>the field hunting!
 
>>LAST EDITED ON Aug-20-12
>>AT 08:04?PM (MST)
>>
>>Why are you guys wasting your
>>time with this troll?
>>it's obvious he gets his
>>jollies out of taking over
>>a website and pissing everyone
>>off! The guy says
>>he's got a fancy degree
>>in wildlife biology of some
>>sort and yet he's running
>>a taxidermy shop for God's
>>sake. That should tell
>>everyone he's a failure at
>>what he chose to do
>>in life just like he's
>>a failure on this site
>>professing to know everything there
>>is to know on how
>>to cure all your problems
>>in Utah. On top
>>of that he makes claims
>>about his home state of
>>Texas being so fantastic for
>>hunting opportunities when it's probably
>>#50 on the list of
>>states for hunting opportunities for
>>the average guy. 99%
>>of the state is private
>>property and if you don't
>>have lots of money to
>>spend on a lease you
>>don't hunt. Period, end
>>of story. Good leases
>>in Texas just to hunt
>>deer are in the thousands
>>of dollars per gun and
>>don't let him tell you
>>any different. When all the
>>land is private property and
>>the land owners are only
>>interested in money, they do
>>whatever it takes to have
>>a good game population and
>>that, in turn, costs money.
>> That cost is passed
>>on to the hunter and
>>he either pays it or
>>watches football every Fall weekend
>>instead of being out in
>>the field hunting!
>
>
>You are correct:/ Sadly I
>have fallen for the same
>drivel spewed on the steps
>of a big grey building
>in 1993 and lots of
>great people with huge concern
>for wildlife bought into.
>I am done with the
>trollstate. Let someone else
>deal with the putz!


Quitter.
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

>>That should be easy. Everyone seems
>>to be shying away from
>>$FW. And the UWC has
>>not made any grandiose, unfullfillable
>>promises. They have however put
>>forth a proposal to see
>>that money generated for wildlife,
>>actualy goes back on the
>>ground for wildlife. They promote
>>conservation, especially hands on participation
>>from thier membership. And best
>>of all, they have disavowed
>>taking welfare tag money.
>
>You are damn smart! Great
>post and also thanks to
>EFA for his work on
>studying Texas Game "Management".....that makes
>me want to puke!
> I would like
>to see an honest answer
>to that last question from
>EFA too:)

Go back to post 134. Didn't you say you quit earlier?
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

>>>That should be easy. Everyone seems
>>>to be shying away from
>>>$FW. And the UWC has
>>>not made any grandiose, unfullfillable
>>>promises. They have however put
>>>forth a proposal to see
>>>that money generated for wildlife,
>>>actualy goes back on the
>>>ground for wildlife. They promote
>>>conservation, especially hands on participation
>>>from thier membership. And best
>>>of all, they have disavowed
>>>taking welfare tag money.
>>
>>You are damn smart! Great
>>post and also thanks to
>>EFA for his work on
>>studying Texas Game "Management".....that makes
>>me want to puke!
>> I would like
>>to see an honest answer
>>to that last question from
>>EFA too:)
>
>Go back to post 134.
>Didn't you say you quit
>earlier?


Go back to 1993.....didn't you say something about the regular Joe sportsman? Eat yer socks, doofus.
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

>
>>"All in all, I'd say there's
>>a lot of hunting money
>>floating around in Texas, but
>>has it helped mule deer.
>>Nah! Their numbers are down
>>35% (down to 180,000 from
>>280,000) due to the drought
>>over the last 3 years
>>and they aren't expected to
>>recover for several more years
>>even if the drought ends. "
>
>Yep muley numbers are down.
> That's what happens when
>you have the worst drought
>in recorded history. But
>no worries we have great
>infrastructure to help speed up
>a rebound. Plus muley
>management first started really gaining
>steep here about a 15
>years ago. This drought
>has made a lot of
>people who were not on
>board into the light.
>Plus the state has moved
>the MLD program to muleteer
>also. One of the
>upside is that 15 years
>ago Texas had never entered
>a muley into the b&c
>books. Now we have
>entered several.
>>
>">Tristate, I'm sure you will have
>>your own spin on this,
>>but if some can't afford
>>to hunt now, as you
>>say, how many more will
>>it be under this type
>>of system? "
>
>Who knows? It could be
>less. But it's your
>best chance in the long
>run for producing results and
>opportunity.
>>
>>"Another point: Several times over your
>>last few posts, you've said
>>each state should develope it's
>>own system, but apparently Utah
>>isn't included. I thought that's
>>what we were doing at
>>the meeting when you begin
>>your objection to our proposal. "
>
>You weren't trying to change the
>system you were just trying
>to grab at control of
>the same system you have.
>
>>
>>
>>"And one last question you haven't
>>answered. What is your vested
>>interest in Utah's wildlife management?
>>It seems to me that
>>you'd be better off spending
>>your time and energy making
>>Texas hunting more affordable to
>>more people. "
>
>I have answered this question time
>and time again. If
>you are too stupid to
>read my response I will
>type it no more.

No need to get testy! Especially since you've been told time and time again that UWC wants no part of the welfare tag system, yet you write "you were just trying to grab at control of the same system you have". Didn't you read our other posts?

We aren't out to dismantle them or the EXPO or even the Conservation and Convention tags as you, they, the DWR and the Wildlife Board believe. We see the good they are doing and believe there's ample room in our world for them. But apparently, there's little room in their world for us per the continual push for fewer permits, smaller hunt areas, higher permit prices, higher buck to doe ratios, shorter seasons and other biologically unsound social regulations and practices.

UWC started because there were/are many of us who don't subscribe to the high priced trophy hunt mentality. Hunting is further down our list of priorities and, as hard as it may seem to some, we have other things to do in life. But with the increasing social regulations and practices, hunting (and fishing) are getting pushed further and further down our priority lists.

Your claim that all this money provides more opportunity is misguided because your definition of opportunity isn't the same as mine. Sure, there may be more animals and even permits, but if the cost of hunting goes "Texas", you've eliminated my "opportunity" because my budget won't/can't allow it. Yes, I know, if I wanted it bad enough, I'd find the money. But that's my point! You're the one who's setting the criteria for who's serious and who isn't and if I fall below that criteria, in your mind, it's my problem not yours because I didn't want it bad enough.

All we've done and all we want to do with this proposal is to hold them to a promise they made in 2005. If MDF and SFW are putting the lion's share of those $5 entry fees (90% as they committed) into wildlife as they claim, then there should be no problem with an audit and we won't even mention the remaining 10%. They can pay salaries, bonuses, buy a condo in Bermuda, or start a bonfire with it for all I care, but those tags are removed from the pools I draw from and I want some accountabilty for them.
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

Cut the bull Elk. Just because you say the UWC only want transparency and aren't after control or the shut down of the expo, or the 200 tags back in the draw, doesn't make it true. Plenty of members here that have claimed alliance with the UWC have screamed for all of the above on these forums. You can't deny this.

Now you claim you don't even care, and that hunting isn't a high enough priority for you??? Then go away and let the people who make it a very high priority deal with the real issues.
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

It always comes down to the same old thing--money. If Tristate makes his living from wealthy horn hunters he is all over DP. If the common guy that family hunts is against them we are all misguided dumbshots. The general public will eventually win this battle. Keep writing your legislators and the governor and put pressure on them for transparency for any tag that is given to any group that generates money.
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

>Cut the bull Elk. Just
>because you say the UWC
>only want transparency and aren't
>after control or the shut
>down of the expo, or
>the 200 tags back in
>the draw, doesn't make it
>true. Plenty of members
>here that have claimed alliance
>with the UWC have screamed
>for all of the above
>on these forums. You
>can't deny this.
>
>Now you claim you don't even
>care, and that hunting isn't
>a high enough priority for
>you??? Then go away
>and let the people who
>make it a very high
>priority deal with the real
>issues.

How about you run in front of a bus? Jerkweed! You're nothing but an antagonistic putz and you've offered NOTHING of a solution and only mirrored the horse crap we've already dealt with. Why don't you stay the hell in Texas and leave our issues and game management system right alone?!?! Have a nice day, DON!
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

>It always comes down to the
>same old thing--money. If Tristate
>makes his living from wealthy
>horn hunters he is all
>over DP. If the common
>guy that family hunts is
>against them we are all
>misguided dumbshots. The general public
>will eventually win this battle.
>Keep writing your legislators and
>the governor and put pressure
>on them for transparency for
>any tag that is given
>to any group that generates
>money.


Another great post. +100
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

"How about you run in front of a bus? Jerkweed! You're nothing but an antagonistic putz and you've offered NOTHING of a solution and only mirrored the horse crap we've already dealt with. Why don't you stay the hell in Texas and leave our issues and game management system right alone?!?! Have a nice day, DON!"

Your skills at debate are boggling and obviously a supreme match. You give such exact counterpoints and information that only could have been retrieved with the deepest of research in the very best of periodicals. I like your very special technique you use where you tell your opponent you are done with something only to pop in later, and wish destruction while spitting third grade insults. UWC is truely blessed to have you on their side. ;-)
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

Every time I read a tristate post this sound bite is playing in the back of my mind.



Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-12 AT 04:00PM (MST)[p]>>It is not the 1% of
>>tags that is specifically the
>>problem. As I said before.
>>Auctioned conservation tags have been
>>quite the success story for
>>Uath wildlife. Bighorn sheep are
>>a prime example of this.
>>
>>
>>It is groups like $FW/BGF=MDF that
>>rely almost solely on convention(expo)
>>tags to fund themselves. That
>>is the problem, it is
>>welfare. They in turn use
>>that funding to put in
>>place policy that is bad
>>for Utah wildlife and hunters.
>>While promising bigger deer herds
>>for the last 20 years.
>>In that same time, tags
>>have been cut in half
>>twice.
>>
>>They hire Wildlife Board members as
>>CEOs, as they stack the
>>Wildlife Board in their favor.
>>This is how they get
>>things like convention(expo) tags. There
>>is nothing in place to
>>see that the money they
>>generate from convention(expo) tags, goes
>>directly on the ground, to
>>wildlife. Which is very similar
>>to how alot of anti
>>hunting groups work. They promise
>>that what they are doing
>>benefits wildlife. While in reality
>>it is all marketing, and
>>most of the money never
>>hits the ground. This is
>>no different than letting welfare
>>mothers write their own welfare
>>checks, with no oversight. The
>>fox guarding the hen house.
>
>
>Still less than %1. If
>that's what crushes the system,
>you have way bigger problems
>than SFW. If the
>fox is guarding the hen
>house all he's getting is
>a toenail, some feathers and
>a bunch of chicken*!#t.
>Meanwhile the rotten wood in
>the hen house is about
>to crash on the your
>hens but your too worried
>about foxes to notice.
>
>I tell you what. I
>have been answering your questions
>now answer one of mine
>please. What is making
>deer numbers decline in Utah?
>

If you are okay with SFW then proudly wear that hat.

Everyone else, you better stand up for something or you will fall for anything. SFW = welfare mother. And she never has enough. She will never be self-sufficient. And she will never be grateful.

What say you, Utah? Do you want your tags going to fund a private group that hides details about how the money is spent?

Why is it that SFW, with all its pride, accepts welfare year after year after year? Shameful.
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

Every time I read Dryflyelk posts all I can here is the logice of Frito Vendejo.

 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

LAST EDITED ON Aug-21-12 AT 04:15PM (MST)[p]This is what a wildlife debate is like with the UWC guys.

 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

>"How about you run in front
>of a bus? Jerkweed! You're
>nothing but an antagonistic putz
>and you've offered NOTHING of
>a solution and only mirrored
>the horse crap we've already
>dealt with. Why don't you
>stay the hell in Texas
>and leave our issues and
>game management system right alone?!?!
>Have a nice day, DON!"
>
>
>Your skills at debate are boggling
>and obviously a supreme match.
>You give such exact counterpoints
>and information that only could
>have been retrieved with the
>deepest of research in the
>very best of periodicals.
>I like your very special
>technique you use where you
>tell your opponent you are
>done with something only to
>pop in later, and wish
>destruction while spitting third grade
>insults. UWC is truely
>blessed to have you on
>their side. ;-)

I'm not calling you out as a member of UWC and you really want to bring up "debating" skills? You're the looser who made a substantive debate with Randy Newberg end in frustration with your circle jerk...er, uh, circle talk. When I encounter dillholes like you, I chose to simply my communication to a level they (you) understand. I could debate your ridiculous statements but its not worth it.....Oh, and as far as chiming in again after saying I was done. Yeah, I don't feel bad about that. At least I'm doing it with my original user name instead of fabricating a bunch of fact bull crap. I hear a bus coming....quick, RUN!}> I can do emoticons too! I'm a big boy like you, DON!
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

>Every time I read a tristate
>post this sound bite is
>playing in the back of
>my mind.
>
>
>
>
>Vi Et Armis Invictus Maneo


PERFECT! HAHAHAHA!
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

>In your spare Tristar please read
>this
>
>http://uwcnewsletter.wordpress.com/uwc-convention-tag-proposal/
>
>Then please explain how it is
>going to dismantle SFW or
>the Expo?

RUM3000,

Please go back and read all the posts in the threads of

1. Bribery and Misleading
2. Thursday is the day
3. Why didn't the DWR require
4. I asked about the UWC expo tag
5. Utah wildlife board to consider

In these threads you will see dozens of posts of people proclaiming affiliation and support of the UWC, that the proposal is the first step in dismantling the expo and SFW, and MDF. Sure anyone can go read cleaned up spin on a website, but I like the word out of the horses mouth.
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

Ok Tristate that is what they have said. I have read all of the posts my phone was going nuts on Monday. These people can say this or that, but this is what the UWC has in writing. If you go back and SFW had a vision to make Utah a great place to hunt with great heard numbers. They just wanted to make some changes for the better. Most of the guys on here see what SFW is doing right now and don't feel it is right. I also believe that the people of Utah are going to keep any new organization in check. Now what if UWC does want the expo tags and what if they want to put the entire $5per application towards wildlife and pay for the raffle out of their pocket. I am for giving a group a chance when they are trying to change something that most feel is wrong.
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-12 AT 08:41AM (MST)[p]Watch this ishootRUM300, then tell us the UWC isn't on to there game.


Pay close attention to who produced it, who sponsored it and who they interviewed in the pos $xpo promotion. The whole wildlife management community is rotten to the core. This pig pen is so deep and so wide it may take a Federal investigation to get to the bottom of it.

It's the SMOKING GUN BABY! Go UWC!
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

I have actually been impressed with how diplomatic the UWC has been on this issue. When extreme measures are suggested Hawkeye usually comes out to clarify where they stand. Many senior UWC people have clarified that they arent looking to auction the tags themselves (that would seem to undermine their mission anyway IMO). I would challenge anyone to find a single comment from a senior UWC person that could be construed as unreasonable in any way.

There are many people not affiliated with the UWC, myself included,that would like to see the number of tags in the Utah Expo significantly reduced (by 90% or more). I disagree with the expo premise itself and I have done enough independent and detailed research to know the expo is a financial joke. I have expressed my view often that I believe aggressive action rather than professinal deliberation is what will ultimately get this changed. Utah hunters need to start exercising their financial power and pull back from the bad orgs and any businesses that support them. If one out of four people pulled away from buying raffle tags or spending money with vendors it would create a big enough ripple to call into question the viability of future expos.

The UWC seems to be the coolest head is this debate, if MDF or SFW were smart they would sit down at the table and work things out with them. In order for this to happen ALL of the financial details would need to be shared and there are clealy some things the expo sponsors arent proud of. If Utah wants to save their expo, they are going to have to roll some heads....probably some of the most oversized and arrogant ones.

Ryan
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

>I have actually been impressed with
>how diplomatic the UWC has
>been on this issue. When
>extreme measures are suggested Hawkeye
>usually comes out to clarify
>where they stand. Many senior
>UWC people have clarified that
>they arent looking to auction
>the tags themselves (that would
>seem to undermine their mission
>anyway IMO). I would challenge
>anyone to find a single
>comment from a senior UWC
>person that could be construed
>as unreasonable in any way.
>
>
>There are many people not affiliated
>with the UWC, myself included,that
>would like to see the
>number of tags in the
>Utah Expo significantly reduced (by
>90% or more). I disagree
>with the expo premise itself
>and I have done enough
>independent and detailed research to
>know the expo is a
>financial joke. I have expressed
>my view often that I
>believe aggressive action rather than
>professinal deliberation is what will
>ultimately get this changed. Utah
>hunters need to start exercising
>their financial power and pull
>back from the bad orgs
>and any businesses that support
>them. If one out of
>four people pulled away from
>buying raffle tags or spending
>money with vendors it would
>create a big enough ripple
>to call into question the
>viability of future expos.
>
>The UWC seems to be the
>coolest head is this debate,
>if MDF or SFW were
>smart they would sit down
>at the table and work
>things out with them. In
>order for this to happen
>ALL of the financial details
>would need to be shared
>and there are clealy some
>things the expo sponsors arent
>proud of. If Utah wants
>to save their expo, they
>are going to have to
>roll some heads....probably some of
>the most oversized and arrogant
>ones.
>
>Ryan


Blahblahblah. Yall are playing the smae game the muslims play. You get really nice guys at the top to say yall are the new religion of peace and love but at the same time all the grunts are doing their best to saw peoples heads off.
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-12 AT 11:42AM (MST)[p]
How do you even know who all the grunts are? Do you have a list of all the UWC members, especially on this website, to make a stupid statement like that. I doubt it since you seem to be able to keep spouting stupid statements with no facts in every post you make. Sort of like you just mentioned---blablablablabla!!!
What I do find amazing is that these two organizations (SFW & MDF) can actually be legitimate 501(c)3 groups to cause all the stir and dissension that is going on right now. It is obvious that the IRS laws allow a lot of latitude in bookkeeping as far as not making a profit so they can be and stay under that classification. They can obviously make their books however they need to in order to stay within the IRS laws and pass an audit, but we need more open definitive bookwork for the purposes that we keep talking about. This whole 501 (c)3 classification appears to be a farce in this particular situation when you see how DP set up the BGF organization as an offshoot of the SFW and the BGF appears to be a LLC! That sure seems to be a simple way that one could put money made by a nonprofit group into another that is a legal, for-profit group! I find the first paragraph in the previous post by javihammer to have really hit the nail on the head and am proud to have been one of the first on this site to join the UWC group. So far I'm holding my head up high for what they stand for and have done.
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-12 AT 12:15PM (MST)[p]TOPSLUG aka $fw trollie-o,

How's that fund raising effort to start that law suit coming. Just what we thought, NOT! Because nothing you say on here is as you pretend. You were one of the first to sign up, I believe it, dp put you right on it didn't he! $fw is evil but there alot smarter than we thought. But we're on to you TOPPLUG.

Here is what I going to do: Let's see who's on board and who blowing $fw smoke up who's arse's.

You post the mailing address for the United Wildlife Cooperative and I'll run right down to my bank and get me a crisp $100 bill and I'll mail it to Mr. Boulter and ask that it be ear marked for a law suit to get this $xpo pos stopped, just like you pretended you were going to do.

So post up the address and the cash is in the mail! I'd invite the rest of you boys to do the same. If everyone of the 1000 plus that signed on to help, send the UWC a hundred dollars today, we'll have a $100,000 to get started.

We don't want to hear any of this "I've donate to UWC already" clap trap either. This is ear marked money for the law suit. Come boy's, you want this pos stopped or are you just a bunch of internet momma's boys, all hat, no cows?

Post the address and lets get this show on the road, enough of BUTTGUN's yap, we need legal action and legal action costs hard cash.

So TOPDROP, lets see who's in and who the real trolls are. Test me, put up that mailing address! In two days, ask Mr. Boulter if he's got my "law suit $100"

FISH OR CUT BAIT BOYS!
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

>TOPSLUG aka $fw trollie-o,
>
>How's that fund raising effort to
>start that law suit coming.
> Just what we thought,
>NOT! Because nothing you
>say on here is as
>you pretend. You were
>one of the first to
>sign up, I believe it,
>dp put you right on
>it didn't he! $fw
>is evil but there alot
>smarter than we thought.
>But we're on to you
>TOPPLUG.
>
>Here is what I going to
>do: Let's see who's
>on board and who blowing
>$fw smoke up who's arse's.
>
>
>You post the mailing address for
>the United Wildlife Cooperative and
>I'll run right down to
>my bank and get me
>a crisp $100 bill and
>I'll mail it to Mr.
>Boulter and ask that it
>be ear marked for a
>law suit to get this
>$xpo pos stopped, just like
>you pretended you were going
>to do.
>
>So post up the address and
>the cash is in the
>mail! I'd invite the
>rest of you boys to
>do the same. If
>everyone of the 1000 plus
>that signed on to help,
>send the UWC a hundred
>dollars today, we'll have a
>$100,000 to get started.
>
>We don't want to hear any
>of this "I've donate to
>UWC already" clap trap either.
> This is ear marked
>money for the law suit.
> Come boy's, you want
>this pos stopped or are
>you just a bunch of
>internet momma's boys, all hat,
>no cows?
>
>Post the address and lets get
>this show on the road,
>enough of BUTTGUN's yap, we
>need legal action and legal
>action costs hard cash.
>
>So TOPDROP, lets see who's in
>and who are the real
>trolls are. Test me,
>put up that mailing address!
> In two days, ask
>Mr. Boulter if he's got
>my "law suit $100"
>
>FISH OR CUT BAIT BOYS!

I am sorry. I can not donate. I spent my last $100 on expo raffle tags. :7
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-12 AT 12:24PM (MST)[p]I, and no other member associated with UWC, has said anything about a lawsuit agains SFW, MDF or any other organization. You AKA TROLLSTATE are two real wingnuts, LOL!

PS: Funny how TWO of your the last three posts that you TWO have sent have come from the same computer, LOL! TROLLSTATE---Your verbiage is too similar to Joe, so get a new life and quit trying to take over the site with yet another username, LOL!
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

There you go deceiving to the boys again TOOLGUN, the truth is, it's you and DRUELSTATE that are using the same computer.

Address please.
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-12 AT 12:36PM (MST)[p]You're so GD smart find the SOB yourself Trollstate!!!

PS: Same computer sent the last two posts from the two of you, LOL!!! You can't be that dumb can you---answer is YES!!!
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

>LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-12
>AT 12:36?PM (MST)
>
>You're so GD smart find the
>SOB yourself Trollstate!!!
>
>PS: Same computer sent the last
>two posts from the two
>of you, LOL!!! You
>can't be that dumb can
>you---answer is YES!!!

Listen I do not know how the whole IP address thing works but it obviously does not work exactly the way you think. Back when I was accused of letting someone named Elk30 use my computer, I wasn't. Now I am being accused of letting this guy Joeaveragehunter use my computer. He is not. My computer sits here on my desk in my office, and no one else is allowed to use it but the bookkeeper when she needs to. She does not know anything about SFW, UWC, or the expo. SHe does know what a mule deer is though.
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

Hey TOPSQUAT, leave your alterego out of this. I'm not smart and I tried to find an address or I won't have asked your WETGUN for it, but just as I thought, you don't have it, cause your a dp trollie-o and didn't think you'd really need it.

Seriously, I want to do what BENTGUN say's he wants to do, get this pos $fw disposed, just like the rest of you want to do, I'm not asking you to send the cash to me...........

What is the UWC mailing address so we can start sending them the money we need.
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

Open question- Why do you continue to respond to Tristate's comments? After reading through this entire thread, I am amazed you take this guy seriously. In reading his comments (which is a no easy task) it seems he must have a vested interest in the Expo money.

I really appreciate the comments made by the majority who are at odds with this dude. I feel there is a genuine desire by the majority to do the honest, best thing for hunters and wildlife.

Have to admit, it has been amusing to witness how each individual has tried to reason with Tristate. Not working well is it?
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-12 AT 02:56PM (MST)[p]Take him/them seriously---hardly, LOL! Being retired I just have a little spare time to give him/them the raspberries and see what BS he/they come up with next. I'm done now as I have some other things to get done today, but I'm sure he/they will carry on fine with their BS without me, LOL! PS: I wonder if his bookkeeper is nicknamed Joe and is taking smoke breaks in his Office, LOL!
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-12 AT 02:52PM (MST)[p]Here ya go Mr. Average Joe! Send your tax deductible $100 personal check to:

UWC
C/O Mr. Tye Boulter
3016 Gleneagles Drive
Syracuse, Utah 84075

Tye will be looking for it and assures me you can list it on your taxes as a charitable deduction the way they are set up. If, and when, it cashes and I get the word from Tye I may just match it!!!
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

LMFAO! Now go back to the old Don Peay posts and see if the IP matches. Good detective work.
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

LAST EDITED ON Aug-22-12 AT 03:11PM (MST)[p]>Hey TOPSQUAT, leave your alterego out
>of this. I'm not
>smart and I tried to
>find an address or I
>won't have asked your WETGUN
>for it, but just as
>I thought, you don't have
>it, cause your a dp
>trollie-o and didn't think
>you'd really need it.
>
>Seriously, I want to do what
>BENTGUN say's he wants to
>do, get this pos $fw
>disposed, just like the rest
>of you want to do,
>I'm not asking you to
>send the cash to me...........
>
>
>What is the UWC mailing address
>so we can start sending
>them the money we need.
>

I'll save you a stamp! Here ya go:

www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org

Go to the membership page and click on the DONATE button! Much Appreciated!

Have a nice day!
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

I'm in on that too! I won't hold my breath though. Anyone else in on this monkey train?

Shawn Spring
UWC Southern Region Co-Chair
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

Trollstate,

It has been about 150 posts and I am still waithing for you to explain why SFW can't just publish there financials here, or facebook, or whereever. Why do they need the WB to force there hand? There is nothing in the contract stopping them from voluntarily doing so, why haven't they done so?

Trollstate,
Here in Utah the majority of land is public land. Most of the animals in the state reside on public land. Unlike Texas. I have nothing bad to say about texas other than comparing hunting in Utah, or anywhere in the intermountain west to Texas is rediculous. While we appreciate your input(as dumazz as it is), feel free to go back to paying for hunting leases, and importing African game. We here in this state will simply continue firguring out how we will grow some more WORLD RECORD ELK, you all figure out how to keep Uncle Ted from breaking game laws. If we need anymore input on how its done in Texas, or what some Texan thinks, we will ride out to Wendover(about the same landscape as your precious lone star state) and ask the local taxidermist for his explaination of game law or economics.

Trollstate, you can quit now, THE DON isn't starting a Texas SFW, he can't afford to buy that many leases, and without public money(tags) SFW is a bumper sticker, so you aren't in line to be the Texas SFW PR chief. Again, thank you for being so confused that you apply supply side economics to government run wildlife agencies. I am sure your biology degree from the University of Phoenix taught Supply side economics in wildlife biology 101, but the arguments for such do not apply. Again, thank you for your concern, and if I am ever in Texas, and need an armadillo stuffed I will look you up!


When they came for the road hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the oppurtunists I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for the public land hunters I was not one so I said nothing. When they came for me there was no one left to say anything!
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

tristate, joeaveradgehunter, sttm, 440sixpack,,,,,hmmmmm one in the same maybe?
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

>tristate, joeaveradgehunter, sttm, 440sixpack,,,,,hmmmmm one
>in the same maybe?

You forgot dkpeay
 
RE: Utah and t,he little Circus

There we go boys: WIMPYGUN just had to prove me wrong didn't he, put that address right out there like we knew he would.

UWC
Tyler K Boulter
3016 Gleneagles Drive
Syracuse, UT
84075-9781
(801) 774-3993

Tye's got my $100 bill headed to Gleneagles Drive, as promised.

Now let's see how many of you so called $fw slayers will put your money where your mouths have been for the last six months. Your all badazz on MM, all full of squall and bawl, beating your chests and pounding your war drums, painting your internet faces black and red to demonstrate your "by GAWD" stud horse meanness, now that you got your badazz whupped again, are you badazz enough send UWC a measly 100 bucks to get this law suit started.

We'll see.

By the way, TRICKYGUN, time to see if you "may just match it!!!". Well now you "may" because I just did, or are you just a big shiny belt buckle with no cows. I think we know. No way your going to send any body a nickel. I call, your turn to place your bet or fold, trollie-o.
 

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HikeHunt61
HikeHunt61

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