Unit 15 Antelope Disappointment.

[ortegageno]

Did an 9 hours trip today. Went from Albuq. Grants, Quemado then to the state line past Red Hill and only seen 2 Antelope bucks and zero doe. Came back and drove down the road to Luna and Zero Antelope. Turned around and came back to Quemado and went to Slaughter mesa and there also no Antelope to be found. Came out and went to Appache creek then towards Horse springs and seen 4 doe Antelope and that's it for Antelope. What the hell is going on in that unit? I'm sure the ranchers are selling tags like wildfire but could it really be that bad or am I just blind. . We did see over 100 elk though hanging out all day. Seen them at 2pm 72 all together in one herd. I Have the bow hunt so I'm hoping to find them around slaughter mesa in the pinion trees come Aug. so I can at least have a little cover. This is only my 3rd Antelope tag in over 35 years of appling, and im not feeling very good about what I seen today. But I guess it's better than being at work.

 

[smarba]

I am not familiar with numbers in that unit, but in NE I've seen a HUGE decrease in bucks and overall numbers that seems to correlate with the timing of unlimited private tags. Coincidence?

 

[El Gringo]

Drought kills Fawns. Extended Drought devastates populations. Landowner tags, or any hunting tags for that matter don’t explain the lack of Does (Antelope, or Deer). We always think it’s hunters killing the populations…It’s not

 

[smarba]

When LO can sell tags for either sex, corresponding to the hunts going on it surely can affect pronghorn population.

 

[5yearcoueshunter]

When LO can sell tags for either sex, corresponding to the hunts going on it surely can affect pronghorn population.

They are NOT either sex, they are buck only. Only exception is the youth only either sex tags. Page 92:

When obtaining a Private-Land Only Pronghorn License, the hunter must select a hunt code corresponding with a public-land pronghorn draw hunt code for the unit(s), bag limit, sporting arms type and season date.

While I'm not a fan of the unlimited private tags, we should be quoting accurate info when discussing.

If what we hear from biologists is correct, it only takes 10 - 15 bucks per 100 does to to breed them all. So unless the unlimited private tags are keeping the ratio below that, the unlimited tags shouldn't be a cause for any widespread decline.

Public land deer have been on a draw for decades now, and the population still is declining from the days when buck tags were OTC/unlimited. While we can complain about too many tags in a particular unit, it really only affects trophy quality not overall population numbers.

 

[PerezA]

I saw a few in there last year while scouting for elk. I’ll pm you the road number

 

[Bwht4x4]

I had the unit 15 rifle hunt in 2018 and hired PGS as my guides. We scouted and hunted like crazy and never turned up a good buck. So few pronghorn were seen on my hunt that I put in for other units now.

 

[Jerry]

Did an 9 hours trip today. Went from Albuq. Grants, Quemado then to the state line past Red Hill and only seen 2 Antelope bucks and zero doe. Came back and drove down the road to Luna and Zero Antelope. Turned around and came back to Quemado and went to Slaughter mesa and there also no Antelope to be found. Came out and went to Appache creek then towards Horse springs and seen 4 doe Antelope and that's it for Antelope. What the hell is going on in that unit? I'm sure the ranchers are selling tags like wildfire but could it really be that bad or am I just blinders . . We did see over 100 elk though hanging out all day. Seen them at 2pm 72 all together in one herd. I Have the bow hunt so I'm hoping to find them around slaughter mesa in the pinion trees come Aug. so I can at least have a little cover. This is only my 3rd Antelope tag in over 35 years of appling, and im not feeling very good about what I seen today. But I guess it's better than being at work.

Wow - that’s so sad- antelope numbers really have gone into the dumpster!!!! I hunted south of Quemado only 1 time, 34 years ago, had a great guide & great tag- killed a full blown monster, not bragging so won’t tell the total final score . Best buck I’ve ever seen anywhere!!
Then life went to hell & haven’t been back- got too $$$$ expensive. I’m sorry you’ve had such a terrible time- fantastic genetics still there I hope !
Best big buck country I ever saw - anytime anywhere. I stayed in a motel in Quemado.
Jerry Gold In Windsor, Colorado

 

[smarba]

As I stated, LOs can and do sell F/IM (either sex tags) corresponding to what hunts are going on. If ranchers are focused on getting rid of pronghorn that are eating "their" cattle grass, you can bet they are whacking the does...

Another issue I've witnessed is the LO tags are supposed to be for the ranch private land only, but the rancher either doesn't accurately explain or doesn't care, and hunters with LO tags are hunting the public land within the ranch too.

 

[5yearcoueshunter]

As I stated, LOs can and do sell F/IM (either sex tags) corresponding to what hunts are going on. If ranchers are focused on getting rid of pronghorn that are eating "their" cattle grass, you can bet they are whacking the does...

Another issue I've witnessed is the LO tags are supposed to be for the ranch private land only, but the rancher either doesn't accurately explain or doesn't care, and hunters with LO tags are hunting the public land within the ranch too.

F/IM are not Either Sex, they are Female/Immature. Still, looking at the regulations and harvest reports, I'm not seeing these "Unlimited" Doe tags.

Are you saying they are whacking the does illegally or without a valid tag?

Harvest Report is not out yet for 23/24 season. Below is the link for the season before. I'm not seeing these Either Sex tags your speaking of. In the last section it looks like they do have special F-IM tags. I'm assuming those are limited in number. The total F-IM harvest statewide was 236.

https://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/download/hunting/harvest/2023/2022-2023-Pronghorn-Harvest-Report.pdf

On your last point, I don't doubt you there. I have witnessed that kind of behavior on private land barbary and deer hunts, especially where the land status is checkboard. That's one of the other reasons I'm not a fan of unlimited private tags for any species.

 

[smarba]

Since the hunt/tag is F/IM female/immature, that means females/does can be killed...no? And because logically there are more does running around and visible, does are probably more likely to be killed on that tag than immature bucks?

Who knows, I may be entirely off base and ranchers actually love antelope and are doing everything in their power to increase their numbers...

All I know is as soon as the unlimited private tags started, pronghorn numbers in the units I'm familiar with in the NE part of the state appear to have dropped substantially every year, based on my own observation. Maybe I'm just not good at scouting or using binoculars LOL

 

[5yearcoueshunter]

Since the hunt/tag is F/IM female/immature, that means females/does can be killed...no? And because logically there are more does running around and visible, does are probably more likely to be killed on that tag than immature bucks?

Who knows, I may be entirely off base and ranchers actually love antelope and are doing everything in their power to increase their numbers...

All I know is as soon as the unlimited private tags started, pronghorn numbers in the units I'm familiar with in the NE part of the state appear to have dropped substantially every year, based on my own observation. Maybe I'm just not good at scouting or using binoculars LOL

I'm not saying that F-IM tags are really any different then Either Sex, you are right, most of those will be doe harvest which would be a reduction in population. But again, there is nothing in game and fish publications that show unlimited either sex or F-IM tags are available to landowners anywhere. There are a limited amount of ES tags given for Youth and limited F-IM tags, not unlimited. And if you believe the harvest reports, 236 female harvest statewide is not that much.

I think ranchers attitude towards pronghorn will vary person to person, no reason to treat them all the same. I'm sure there are ranchers that are getting good money for their buck tags, so why would they overkill? That being said, I'm sure there are some ranches or properties that just try to sell as many as they can. Some ranchers think Antelope compete with cattle so want to kill as many as possible, some think they don't. From my understanding, Pronghorn eat more forbs than grass so not a big competition with cattle unlike Elk or bison.

I don't doubt your observations and I'm not saying that the unlimited buck tags isn't having an effect on the population, I really don't know. I would hope G&F would be on top of that. All I was doing was making sure the idea there are unlimited Either Sex or Doe tags being sold was not taken as fact because I don't see that stated anywhere.

 

[GilaJeff]

Drought kills Fawns. Extended Drought devastates populations. Landowner tags, or any hunting tags for that matter don’t explain the lack of Does (Antelope, or Deer). We always think it’s hunters killing the populations…It’s not

I'm not saying that F-IM tags are really any different then Either Sex, you are right, most of those will be doe harvest which would be a reduction in population. But again, there is nothing in game and fish publications that show unlimited either sex or F-IM tags are available to landowners anywhere. There are a limited amount of ES tags given for Youth and limited F-IM tags, not unlimited. And if you believe the harvest reports, 236 female harvest statewide is not that much.

I think ranchers attitude towards pronghorn will vary person to person, no reason to treat them all the same. I'm sure there are ranchers that are getting good money for their buck tags, so why would they overkill? That being said, I'm sure there are some ranches or properties that just try to sell as many as they can. Some ranchers think Antelope compete with cattle so want to kill as many as possible, some think they don't. From my understanding, Pronghorn eat more forbs than grass so not a big competition with cattle unlike Elk or bison.

I don't doubt your observations and I'm not saying that the unlimited buck tags isn't having an effect on the population, I really don't know. I would hope G&F would be on top of that. All I was doing was making sure the idea there are unlimited Either Sex or Doe tags being sold was not taken as fact because I don't see that stated anywhere.

I agree that all ranchers are different. Back when archery antelope were unlimited, I had rancher ask me to gather all my buddies and go hunt his ranch. He said the antelope actually kicked the cattle off of water.

I'm not saying that F-IM tags are really any different then Either Sex, you are right, most of those will be doe harvest which would be a reduction in population. But again, there is nothing in game and fish publications that show unlimited either sex or F-IM tags are available to landowners anywhere. There are a limited amount of ES tags given for Youth and limited F-IM tags, not unlimited. And if you believe the harvest reports, 236 female harvest statewide is not that much.

I think ranchers attitude towards pronghorn will vary person to person, no reason to treat them all the same. I'm sure there are ranchers that are getting good money for their buck tags, so why would they overkill? That being said, I'm sure there are some ranches or properties that just try to sell as many as they can. Some ranchers think Antelope compete with cattle so want to kill as many as possible, some think they don't. From my understanding, Pronghorn eat more forbs than grass so not a big competition with cattle unlike Elk or bison.

I don't doubt your observations and I'm not saying that the unlimited buck tags isn't having an effect on the population, I really don't know. I would hope G&F would be on top of that. All I was doing was making sure the idea there are unlimited Either Sex or Doe tags being sold was not taken as fact because I don't see that stated anywhere.

I agree that all ranchers are different. Back when archery antelope were unlimited, I had rancher ask me to gather all my buddies and go hunt his ranch. He said the antelope actually kicked the cattle off of water.

 

[GilaJeff]

Did an 9 hours trip today. Went from Albuq. Grants, Quemado then to the state line past Red Hill and only seen 2 Antelope bucks and zero doe. Came back and drove down the road to Luna and Zero Antelope. Turned around and came back to Quemado and went to Slaughter mesa and there also no Antelope to be found. Came out and went to Appache creek then towards Horse springs and seen 4 doe Antelope and that's it for Antelope. What the hell is going on in that unit? I'm sure the ranchers are selling tags like wildfire but could it really be that bad or am I just blind. . We did see over 100 elk though hanging out all day. Seen them at 2pm 72 all together in one herd. I Have the bow hunt so I'm hoping to find them around slaughter mesa in the pinion trees come Aug. so I can at least have a little cover. This is only my 3rd Antelope tag in over 35 years of appling, and im not feeling very good about what I seen today. But I guess it's better than being at work.

I have a rancher friend in that unit that told me when they put up all the wind turbines near Bill Knight Gap, all the antelope showed up on his ranch.

 

[smarba]

Thx for clarification and mature dialog.

In my opinion areas with smaller checkerboard ranches is where the oversale/kill of pronghorn occurs. Because one rancher thinks "If I don't sell the tag, my neighbor will, so I may as well make some $ while I can".

Bigger ranches can manage their own pronghorn herd and grow big bucks, to make big $$ over the long run if they choose. But smaller ranches I think tend to not care and are just interested in a quick $$$.

All that said I am still opposed to unlimited private land tags, since the animals are owned by the State and ranchers shouldn't be the ones who solely get to decide how to manage them...

 

[marburg]

I had the unit 15 rifle hunt in 2018 and hired PGS as my guides. We scouted and hunted like crazy and never turned up a good buck. So few pronghorn were seen on my hunt that I put in for other units now.

Ouch

 

[GilaJeff]

Thx for clarification and mature dialog.

In my opinion areas with smaller checkerboard ranches is where the oversale/kill of pronghorn occurs. Because one rancher thinks "If I don't sell the tag, my neighbor will, so I may as well make some $ while I can".

Bigger ranches can manage their own pronghorn herd and grow big bucks, to make big $$ over the long run if they choose. But smaller ranches I think tend to not care and are just interested in a quick $$$.

All that said I am still opposed to unlimited private land tags, since the animals are owned by the State and ranchers shouldn't be the ones who solely get to decide how to manage them...

I come from ranching families on both sides. I believe that the closer we get to the European model of game management, the closer we get to the demise of public land hunting, and soon hunting will only be a pursuit of the rich, and not a common activity. Then the anti's will have won.

 

[smarba]

I agree with you GilaJeff.

 

[Toro]

That's why the NMDGF gave you that tag in a unit with ZERO goats buddy! One last parting gift from your ex-bil before he retired to make sure and put the screws to you and fulfill his promise to get you!!

 

[Jarhead]

I drew the antelope tag for unit 15 in august