Rambo Strikes Again

grizzly said:
@BuzzH, would it be fair to say you see the world very linearly?
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I know a sick country when I see one, that linear enough for you?

If you want to examine further.

You have country A: generally happy people, but with some of the same problems as everyone else, lots of guns, some reasonable gun control.

You have country B: Highest drug use in the world, high alcohol use, high debt, highest level of incarceration, lots of guns, with very little control and easy access.

Does it really come as a surprise which would result in more mass shootings?

Seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer.

For the record, I'm not a fan of limiting gun access or increased regulation, but I'm also not going to pretend that mass shooting aren't going to continue to happen. They will, and outside of burying the dead from the shootings and maybe improving some of the other societal issues (that nobody really wants to focus on, or commit to solving), nothing will change.

We live with the chance of being mowed down in a mass shooting, simple as that.
 
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I would trade the PITA to register a couple more lowers for being able to do OTC suppressors also. Once you get a couple lowers done, that's it. Maybe drop it to $50 or $100 instead of $200, would still be big $ for the gov. Still with all these events, ever see the stats for suppressors used in any kind of shooting ? VERY low.
 
BuzzH said:
I know a sick country when I see one, that linear enough for you?
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Identifying that there's an issue and being wholly convinced that increasing social programs is a be-all and end-all solution and will thus stop mass murders are different things.

There have been a couple of other items lately where you've made comments like, "It's all upside and no downside, it's not even up for debate," as if there was no place for a differing view.

It's one thing to disagree with somebody and banter back and forth, it's quite another to leave no room in your mind for somebody to think differently.
 
Yes....NFA tax stamp will fix it. :rolleyes:

I mean I'm sure everyone who has one will immediately line up to register theirs and the govt will get that done in quick order. Then, magically the mentally ill kid down the road won't be able to go to wally world and get an AR to shoot the meanie bullies.... cured!

I mean I'm sure all that tax from NSA will go directly to the real problem after all.

It's a mental health issue, and no gun law will change or mitigate that.
 
grizzly said:
Identifying that there's an issue and being wholly convinced that increasing social programs is a be-all and end-all solution and will thus stop mass murders are different things.

There have been a couple of other items lately where you've made comments like, "It's all upside and no downside, it's not even up for debate," as if there was no place for a differing view.

It's one thing to disagree with somebody and banter back and forth, it's quite another to leave no room in your mind for somebody to think differently.
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If that was your take-away, that increasing social programs was the end-all-be-all, maybe you should reconsider YOUR linear thought process. Maybe even reread what I wrote.
 
BuzzH said:
If that was your take-away, that increasing social programs was the end-all-be-all, maybe you should reconsider YOUR linear thought process. Maybe even reread what I wrote.
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K. Maybe I misread. Other than your list of social rankings where you feel the USA is not performing well (parental leave, free college, cheap medical care, mental health support, etc...), what do you propose to end mass murders?

BuzzH said:
I can go on, but it doesn't take a very deep dive into why Norwegians aren't committing mass murder and are a happy nation compared to the US.
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And if that wasn't the context of your post 90-97, what was?
 
grizzly said:
K. Maybe I misread. Other than your list of social rankings where you feel the USA is not performing well (parental leave, free college, cheap medical care, mental health support, etc...), what do you propose to end mass murders?



And if that wasn't the context of your post 90-97, what was?
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You think highest drug use, highest incarceration rate, high alcohol abuse, combined with a metric chit-ton of other societal stress have absolutely nothing to do with poor mental health, or the reason why people snap and shoot up schools, parades, concerts, etc.?

You do realize that 1 in 5 Americans suffer from mental health problems, right? And that we suck at providing mental health care, right? And that its stigmatized in America, right?

What do you think causes that?

How do we fix it?

Perhaps its just something in the drinking water that causes mass murder.

Unbelievable.
 
Did you know Norway has the longest underground tunnel too? Yup, it's the Lærdal Tunnel. And, I'm not sure it's for bragging rights, but it's one of the coldest countries on earth. ?
 
Togwotee said:
He is not ANTIFA, he is isn't highly political but what there is in his media profile is pro Trump. his family is Republican and his dad lost his mayor race to a democrat. he cross dressed to hide his tattoos and escape. stop lying to deflect the truth it didn't work at the insurrection and it won't fly here.

And it was an AR-15. so notdone, does that still make me a " very bad person " even if I was correct ? or just a " correct very bad person " ? is there any chance I can ever be forgiven for giving a FF about others ? the guilt can weigh so heavy at times.

So once again we end up the same place. a pile of bodies and a bigger pile of chit excuses. so now we wait a week or two and do this all over again.
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So he'd had dealings with cops over suicide threats.

His dad "vouched" for him to buy gun.

When does government get the blame for it's ineptitude?

Seems all these shooters, are known to government/law enforcement
 
BuzzH said:
I know a sick country when I see one, that linear enough for you?

If you want to examine further.

You have country A: generally happy people, but with some of the same problems as everyone else, lots of guns, some reasonable gun control.

You have country B: Highest drug use in the world, high alcohol use, high debt, highest level of incarceration, lots of guns, with very little control and easy access.

Does it really come as a surprise which would result in more mass shootings?

Seems intuitively obvious even to the most casual observer.

For the record, I'm not a fan of limiting gun access or increased regulation, but I'm also not going to pretend that mass shooting aren't going to continue to happen. They will, and outside of burying the dead from the shootings and maybe improving some of the other societal issues (that nobody really wants to focus on, or commit to solving), nothing will change.

We live with the chance of being mowed down in a mass shooting, simple as that.
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No one has the BALLS to commit.

More important to not be a racist, or nationalist, than to solve issues
 
grizzly said:
Identifying that there's an issue and being wholly convinced that increasing social programs is a be-all and end-all solution and will thus stop mass murders are different things.

There have been a couple of other items lately where you've made comments like, "It's all upside and no downside, it's not even up for debate," as if there was no place for a differing view.

It's one thing to disagree with somebody and banter back and forth, it's quite another to leave no room in your mind for somebody to think differently.
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Multi personality disorder.

It changes, as does his language, based on which forum he's on
 
BuzzH said:
You think highest drug use, highest incarceration rate, high alcohol abuse, combined with a metric chit-ton of other societal stress have absolutely nothing to do with poor mental health, or the reason why people snap and shoot up schools, parades, concerts, etc.?

You do realize that 1 in 5 Americans suffer from mental health problems, right? And that we suck at providing mental health care, right? And that its stigmatized in America, right?

What do you think causes that?

How do we fix it?

Perhaps its just something in the drinking water that causes mass murder.

Unbelievable.
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We live in a country where one side doesn't know what a woman is.

France, is openly mocking the US for our wokeness.

The issue isn't that we have mental illness, the issue is that it's celebrated by the left.

The Soviets started it decades ago, the Chinese continue it. They knew to beat America you tore it down from within.

Look who runs the schools, media, pop culture.

Dude had blue hair and face tattoos. Now be honest. 10 years ago, that was a freak show. Today it's cheered. But not by me, and be honest, you either. It's celebrated as tearing down cultural norms, as free expression.

You love to hit religion. Notice all the things you mention, coincide with decrease in religion? Religion gave folks a sense of community and some sort of baseline for norms.

We have a sick society, because we promoted, in schools, in government, the craziest, least stable, least capable people.

I dare you to stand up at your job and declare there are 2genders.
 
hossblur said:
We live in a country where one side doesn't know what a woman is.

France, is openly mocking the US for our wokeness.

The issue isn't that we have mental illness, the issue is that it's celebrated by the left.

The Soviets started it decades ago, the Chinese continue it. They knew to beat America you tore it down from within.

Look who runs the schools, media, pop culture.

Dude had blue hair and face tattoos. Now be honest. 10 years ago, that was a freak show. Today it's cheered. But not by me, and be honest, you either. It's celebrated as tearing down cultural norms, as free expression.

You love to hit religion. Notice all the things you mention, coincide with decrease in religion? Religion gave folks a sense of community and some sort of baseline for norms.

We have a sick society, because we promoted, in schools, in government, the craziest, least stable, least capable people.

I dare you to stand up at your job and declare there are 2genders.
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Build more caskets, we're going to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results (nothing).

What's that the definition of again? I always forget.

Blue hair and tattoo's are the problem...If we ban hair color and tattoo shops, force people to go to church, everything will be just fabulous.

Sounds like a free country to me.
 
BuzzH said:
Build more caskets, we're going to do the same thing over and over again expecting different results (nothing).

What's that the definition of again? I always forget.

Blue hair and tattoo's are the problem...If we ban hair color and tattoo shops, force people to go to church, everything will be just fabulous.

Sounds like a free country to me.
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Celebrating insanity is the culprit. Promoting insanity is the culprit.
 
BuzzH said:
I understand it perfectly, doesn't take a degree in social science to put 2 and 2 together.

Norway is number 8 in mental health care.

www.william-russell.com

Which Are The Best Countries For Mental Health? | William Russell

Where are the best places in the world for mental health? Where does the government care most about mental healthcare? See our rankings.
www.william-russell.com www.william-russell.com

Norway also has 1 year of paid leave for new parents.

Norway has a max out of pocket medical care of $350.

Norway workers have a month of paid leave a year.

In Norway, they don't saddle their people with huge college debt, college is free.

Norway is also on the top ten list of happiest people.

www.globalcitizen.org

These Are the World's Top 10 Happiest and Unhappiest Countries in 2022

“Politics should be directed as the great sages long ago insisted: to the well-being of the people.”
www.globalcitizen.org www.globalcitizen.org

I can go on, but it doesn't take a very deep dive into why Norwegians aren't committing mass murder and are a happy nation compared to the US.
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Where’s hossy to cry about unions?
 
SS! said:
Where’s hossy to cry about unions?
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Norway sits on Russia doorstep, yet rides the American taxpayers for defense.

Norway doesn't share a border with a 3rd world country ran by Narco terrorists.

Norway exports massive amounts of petroleum to pay for social programs.

Norway now has real problems, as it's largely homogeneous country has had the Islamic world forced into its borders.


Norway has tall, hot, blonde chicks though, so win for them.
 
hossblur said:
Norway sits on Russia doorstep, yet rides the American taxpayers for defense.

Norway doesn't share a border with a 3rd world country ran by Narco terrorists.

Norway exports massive amounts of petroleum to pay for social programs.

Norway now has real problems, as it's largely homogeneous country has had the Islamic world forced into its borders.


Norway has tall, hot, blonde chicks though, so win for them.
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Maybe the issue is America needs more tall, hot, blonde chicks.
 
Pickett , talk about out of context. a sure sign you've lost the debate.

I said suicide doesn't matter in regards to gun violence statistics. if someone want to die they don't need a gun. but if someone wants to shoot the chit out of a school or parade they do need a gun. and you're working to insure that POS has the very best equipment available to has a successful result.

" only the best for our batchits " should be the NRA logo. sounds better than " Another gold toilet for Wayne " .
 
Togwotee said:
Pickett , talk about out of context. a sure sign you've lost the debate.

I said suicide doesn't matter in regards to gun violence statistics.
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First, I wasn’t debating, I was trolling a douche bag. Your response is a sure sign I won there

Second, suicide statistics are absolutely what squees gun violence numbers that left wing hacks like you use to say “America’s the worst gun violence in the world” only saving grace there is any one with a brain at least gets a good laugh at how stupid you sound
 
Togwotee said:
And it was an AR-15. so notdone, does that still make me a " very bad person " even if I was correct ? or just a " correct very bad person " ? is there any chance I can ever be forgiven for giving a FF about others ? the guilt can weigh so heavy at times.
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I asked how do yoi know what type of weapon?
My comment "you are a verry bad person" had nothing to do with type of weapon.
You used the parade shooting as a weapon to attack others so.
Yes you are still a bad person
 
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Togwotee said:
Suicides don't matter as long as they don't take anyone out with them. no laws will change that.

The fact is no other 1st world nation has the gun problem we have because no other nation has the guns we have. but we can always become a 3rd world nation so we fit in , weekly mass killings, no women's rights and religious fanatics running the government. we're well on our way to becoming Iraq , thank you far right.
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Please explain how women lost all their rights?
As of yesterday the Democrats are in control of the government, so I supposed they are religious fanatics?
You're still a bad person
 
These POS terrorists committing mass murders need to know there is a penalty for what they do.
There is not a reset button to hit to gain more ‘lives’ like the video game they are used to playing while living in Mom’s basement.
Take these human freaks and tie them to a post while on live tv.
Do not lock them up in jail.
Then give every affected family member of the deceased a box of .22 shorts and let them go to town at 50 yrds.
Prove to as many as possible you are actually accountable for your actions.
Or, draw and quarter them on live tv.
I’m easy either way.
 
MrShane said:
These POS terrorists committing mass murders need to know there is a penalty for what they do.
There is not a reset button to hit to gain more ‘lives’ like the video game they are used to playing while living in Mom’s basement.
Take these human freaks and tie them to a post while on live tv.
Do not lock them up in jail.
Then give every affected family member of the deceased a box of .22 shorts and let them go to town at 50 yrds.
Prove to as many as possible you are actually accountable for your actions.
Or, draw and quarter them on live tv.
I’m easy either way.
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Meh
 
hossblur said:
Norway sits on Russia doorstep, yet rides the American taxpayers for defense.

Norway doesn't share a border with a 3rd world country ran by Narco terrorists.

Norway exports massive amounts of petroleum to pay for social programs.

Norway now has real problems, as it's largely homogeneous country has had the Islamic world forced into its borders.


Norway has tall, hot, blonde chicks though, so win for them.
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Check the facts on that defense thing.
 
hossblur said:
NATO Spending by Country 2022


Norway 1.85%of GDP




2% of GDP was the agreement.
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They are hardly freeloaders as you implied. In fact they seem to be an important strategic partner in the region.

The social ills that thrive in the welfare state support your point much better. And they have immigration issues there as well if you want to go even further down the hole.

But, By God they do have some magnificent women there. :cool:
 
Bluehair said:
They are hardly freeloaders as you implied. In fact they seem to be an important strategic partner in the region.

The social ills that thrive in the welfare state support your point much better. And they have immigration issues there as well if you want to go even further down the hole.

But, By God they do have some magnificent women there. :cool:
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Ya?

I wonder, if we cut back to 1.85%, do you think they would suddenly step up?

As the big bad Ruskies drive tanks into Ukraine, I can't help but notice application to NATO suddenly gets important.

I'd argue WE are the strategic partner. No US, no Norway.

But you are right. Unlike Buzz pipedream, the reality is Norway social welfare is in bad shape. Norway has been getting away from it's socialist crap, and rapidly heading towards capitalism.

It's what is so amazing every time @Buzz posts.

He's a big gov, gun control, massive social service, anti religion guy, YET, lives in Wyoming.

It's almost as if he's full of chit.

At least Tog lives in a state that supports his BS. Buzz hides in Wyoming, where he's safe from his BS becoming part of one his state.
 
BuzzH said:
You think highest drug use, highest incarceration rate, high alcohol abuse, combined with a metric chit-ton of other societal stress have absolutely nothing to do with poor mental health, or the reason why people snap and shoot up schools, parades, concerts, etc.?

You do realize that 1 in 5 Americans suffer from mental health problems, right? And that we suck at providing mental health care, right? And that its stigmatized in America, right?

What do you think causes that?

How do we fix it?

Perhaps its just something in the drinking water that causes mass murder.

Unbelievable.
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Poor Buzzy missed his last Antifa rally, he's got sand in his britches over it. Ironic talking about 1-5 not realizing he is the 1.
 
Notdone, stay focused this isn't complicated.

As you know it was an AR he used. so does being right make any difference ? or am I just a very bad person for having a grasp for the obvious you do not possess?

I also used 9/11 to attack raghead terrorists from Saudi Arabia. I live in a world called reality, actions have consequences and feelers might get hurt. I'm a bad bad person.

You really think the type of weapon had nothing to do with it ? yeah right. watch the video, the cops went in with their handguns, when they heard rapid rifle fire they took off running like ####### from a gas station . I guess dying just wasn't on their list of things to do that day. the AR made no difference ? WTF ever.


Sorry if Rambo is a hero , but spoiler alert, he's a fictional character played by a really chitty actor. and when losers like that kid get their rambo gun and all the fix'ins they think they're as tough as your hero. no pearl handled single action six shooter and leather vest for your boys, they get the best mass murder equipment money can buy.
 
I think it's pretty obvious that the delay in the police response was influenced by the weapon the shooter was using. If he had a revolver, they wouldn't have waited over an hour to go in.

That doesn't mean I'm calling for the banning of AR-15's, I'm not. But the reality of the weapon shouldn't be ignored
 
Dude Is SKEERED!

And Has Been Forever!

He'd Take Guns From Everybody if He Could!

And If He Could!

The BS Would & Will Keep Happening Just Like it's Going to No Matter What New BS Laws You Put in Place!

But People are STUPID & Don't Get It!

dude Thinks That once Something is Banned That Item Doesn't Exist anymore!

He Must Also Think Everybody in This F'D Up Country We Live In Will Abide by Laws He Wants put in place!

WAFJ!
 
elkassassin said:
Dude Is SKEERED!

And Has Been Forever!

He'd Take Guns From Everybody if He Could!

And If He Could!

The BS Would & Will Keep Happening Just Like it's Going to No Matter What New BS Laws You Put in Place!

But People are STUPID & Don't Get It!

dude Thinks That once Something is Banned That Item Doesn't Exist anymore!

He Must Also Think Everybody in This F'D Up Country We Live In Will Abide by Laws He Wants put in place!

WAFJ!
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You got any ideas?

Griz, that is an interesting point you make about whether the type of weapon changes the tactics.
 
grizzly said:
I think it's pretty obvious that the delay in the police response was influenced by the weapon the shooter was using. If he had a revolver, they wouldn't have waited over an hour to go in.

That doesn't mean I'm calling for the banning of AR-15's, I'm not. But the reality of the weapon shouldn't be ignored
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Um, was it the AR that was stopping cops from going in with tactical shields as well? Or was it Bufford T Justice and his "authority" complex?

While not a cop, after Columbine the rule is "you go in", and the threat is neutralized BEFORE evacuation, even if that means passing dead and injured to do so.

So, I guess if he was in there with a mini 14 then the gun wouldn't matter and the cops would have advanced? How about a Browning BAR? Benelli Super Black Eagle?



No offense to cops, but this case shows EXACTLY why I want an AR. Chit breaks out, and a Biden voter decides to be Scarface, I can't count on the cops to save me, and my Hawkins vs his AR, AK, UZI, SAW,SCAR, etc, ain't a fair fight.

What frustrates me, is guys in THIS FORUM, who supposedly know about guns, willingly regurgitating the lefts talking points. The .223 IS NOT a high caliber killing machine. The military went to it not because of it's lethality, but because soldiers could spray and pray with it. Almost none of us would use a .223 on a deer, yet some jump right in on the narrative.

Further. Having just bought the gun, and not a shooter, he was exactly a spray and pray guy, who most likely would have shut himself if he had been challenged.

Left alone with a hammer in a class of little kids for as long as he was, the result would have been the same.

This was a bunch of traffic ticket writting, 20 year to retirement, big talkers, who had zero interest in actually doing their job, exposing themselves. They all took a oath, they failed, they all should be fired and pensions stripped. The chief, should face charges.

But as gun owners and users, it's shameful to pretend "the gun made me do it". Unless you were that kid that played records backwards to hear the devil, you know better
 
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hossblur said:
No offense to cops, but this case shows EXACTLY why I want an AR. Chit breaks out, and a Biden voter decides to be Scarface, I can't count on the cops to save me, and my Hawkins vs his AR, AK, UZI, SAW,SCAR, etc, ain't a fair fight.
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You are more likely to be hit by lightning. At least until everyone finally gets a black rifle to pack.

Its really just an excuse to buy one.
 
I Don't Have All The Answers!

But To Take Rights/Privileges Away From Millions Of Law Abiding Americans because of what a Few JACK-ASSES Pull off is Total BS!

Hey blue:

The Day They Take Your AR's!

Is The Same Day Your Hunting Rifles are At Risk of Being Taken Away!

You Gonna Give Up Some Guns In Hopes They Won't Come For All Guns A Short Time Later?

You Could Ban All AR's & They'd Gather What They Want On The Black Market For Hundreds of Years!

It's Against The Law For Convicted FELONS To Possess Guns of any kind!

The Day a FELON Is Released from Jail,What's The Very First F'N Item They get ahold of?





Bluehair said:
You got any ideas?

Griz, that is an interesting point you make about whether the type of weapon changes the tactics.
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Bluehair said:
You are more likely to be hit by lightning. At least until everyone finally gets a black rifle to pack.

Its really just an excuse to buy one.
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My honest excuse, the government told me not to.

Had mine 5-6 years, shot maybe 100 shells.

I'm truly not interested in what the government thinks about what I chose to own to defend myself (no matter how small the odds).
 
elkassassin said:
I Don't Have All The Answers!

But To Take Rights/Privileges Away From Millions Of Law Abiding Americans because of what a Few JACK-ASSES Pull off is Total BS!

Hey blue:

The Day They Take Your AR's!

Is The Same Day Your Hunting Rifles are At Risk of Being Taken Away!

You Gonna Give Up Some Guns In Hopes They Won't Come For All Guns A Short Time Later?

You Could Ban All AR's & They'd Gather What They Want On The Black Market For Hundreds of Years!

It's Against The Law For Convicted FELONS To Possess Guns of any kind!

The Day a FELON Is Released from Jail,What's The Very First F'N Item They get ahold of?
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A trowel, hawk, and sanding pole, seems we have a few in our ranks?
 
In the confines of a school classroom I would rather the guy on the other side of the door had an AR than a shottie with 00 buck. That's a can't miss weapon in that range. Would be equally more effective at the task of shooting a room full of children huddling in a corner.

IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MANY SCARY BLACK GUNS YOU REFUSE TO SELL, THIS WILL NOT STOP!

The fact that people who know and understand firearms are stupid enough to think that when you ban ANY weapon this will stop or even slow down is crazy to me. Let alone for one to think an AR is more effective than a Mini 14 or shotgun in this type of thing.

I guess it's true that common sense just isn't that common anymore. Even on a website of seemingly otherwise sensible folks. We may be doomed as a country afterall.
 
hossblur said:
Um, was it the AR that was stopping cops from going in with tactical shields as well? Or was it Bufford T Justice and his "authority" complex?

While not a cop, after Columbine the rule is "you go in", and the threat is neutralized BEFORE evacuation, even if that means passing dead and injured to do so.

So, I guess if he was in there with a mini 14 then the gun wouldn't matter and the cops would have advanced? How about a Browning BAR? Benelli Super Black Eagle?



No offense to cops, but this case shows EXACTLY why I want an AR. Chit breaks out, and a Biden voter decides to be Scarface, I can't count on the cops to save me, and my Hawkins vs his AR, AK, UZI, SAW,SCAR, etc, ain't a fair fight.

What frustrates me, is guys in THIS FORUM, who supposedly know about guns, willingly regurgitating the lefts talking points. The .223 IS NOT a high caliber killing machine. The military went to it not because of it's lethality, but because soldiers could spray and pray with it. Almost none of us would use a .223 on a deer, yet some jump right in on the narrative.

Further. Having just bought the gun, and not a shooter, he was exactly a spray and pray guy, who most likely would have shut himself if he had been challenged.

Left alone with a hammer in a class of little kids for as long as he was, the result would have been the same.

This was a bunch of traffic ticket writting, 20 year to retirement, big talkers, who had zero interest in actually doing their job, exposing themselves. They all took a oath, they failed, they all should be fired and pensions stripped. The chief, should face charges.

But as gun owners and users, it's shameful to pretend "the gun made me do it". Unless you were that kid that played records backwards to hear the devil, you know better
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Couple points, one you obviously don't know much about firearms, including .22 centerfires.

I've killed a bunch of big-game with .22 centerfires, they kill big-game just fine. If you actually hunted some, you wouldn't make such outlandish claims.

Your second to last paragraph, is the precise reason why LEO positions are not being filled. Why, an ex LEO on this board said that with 11 open positions, 7 applied only 2 were able to pass a written test. Nobody is going to work for peanut wages and crap benefits, to be second guessed, and have their pensions stripped and charges brought against them because a criminal shot up a bunch of school kids.

Just for fun, lets say that the first couple cops that showed up, charged the room and in the confusion of being shot at by a kid with an AR, there was some collateral deaths (friendly and or not friendly fire in the exchange).

You think those cops would get a pass? NO WAY. They would be ridiculed for NOT waiting, and there would be another whole pack of armchair quarterbacks asking for their jobs, their termination, their pensions.

They're hosed either way, so why risk your job, your life, the well-being of your family for an ungrateful nation?
 
eelgrass said:
And the grunt could carry more ammo in the field.

Your post is spot on Hoss!
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If the military didn't want them using something lethal, why not paint ball guns? Or airsoft?

Unbelievable.

Taking stupid to places it's never been.
 
hossblur said:
What frustrates me, is guys in THIS FORUM, who supposedly know about guns, willingly regurgitating the lefts talking points. The .223 IS NOT a high caliber killing machine. The military went to it not because of it's lethality, but because soldiers could spray and pray with it. Almost none of us would use a .223 on a deer, yet some jump right in on the narrative.
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There are a bunch of conflicting points in this one paragraph alone.

I haven't seen anybody here call the .223 a "high caliber killing machine." Who's "regurgitating the lefts talking points" that you're referring to?

The military went to .223 for several reasons, one of which is "spray and pray" because the AR-15-style platform is basically a foolproof weapon (when maintained) that can be used effectively by people with very little training. Sadly, the same rules apply in a school or movie theater as clearing a terrorist house is Afghanistan.

The fact that few of us would use a .223 for deer (though the first antelope I ever shot was with a .22-250 and it worked great), is countered by the fact that none of us are going to grab a Model 70 to defend against a home invasion. They have different purposes and the AR-15 platform (and, yes, we can include the Mini-14, BAR, AR-10, etc...) is really good at what it's designed for. That's why the military has used a variation of it for five decades.

It appears you missed the forest for the trees.

Basic question for you... Do you disagree with my premise that the cops would've responded differently if the shooter had a revolver? Do you think as many kids would've been killed with a .38 or even a .44 Mag?
 
huntindad4 said:
In the confines of a school classroom I would rather the guy on the other side of the door had an AR than a shottie with 00 buck. That's a can't miss weapon in that range. Would be equally more effective at the task of shooting a room full of children huddling in a corner.

IT DOES NOT MATTER HOW MANY SCARY BLACK GUNS YOU REFUSE TO SELL, THIS WILL NOT STOP!

The fact that people who know and understand firearms are stupid enough to think that when you ban ANY weapon this will stop or even slow down is crazy to me. Let alone for one to think an AR is more effective than a Mini 14 or shotgun in this type of thing.

I guess it's true that common sense just isn't that common anymore. Even on a website of seemingly otherwise sensible folks. We may be doomed as a country afterall.
Click to expand...
I agree, like people making claims that .22 centerfires aren't "a high caliber killing machine".

I used to think people that hunted actually had a clue about firearms, apparently not.
 
grizzly said:
There are a bunch of conflicting points in this one paragraph alone.

I haven't seen anybody here call the .223 a "high caliber killing machine." Who's "regurgitating the lefts talking points" that you're referring to?

The military went to .223 for several reasons, one of which is "spray and pray" because the AR-15-style platform is basically a foolproof weapon (when maintained) that can be used effectively by people with very little training. Sadly, the same rules apply in a school or movie theater as clearing a terrorist house is Afghanistan.

The fact that few of us would use a .223 for deer (though the first antelope I ever shot was with a .22-250 and it worked great), is countered by the fact that none of us are going to grab a Model 70 to defend against a home invasion. They have different purposes and the AR-15 platform (and, yes, we can include the Mini-14, BAR, AR-10, etc...) is really good at what it's designed for. That's why the military has used a variation of it for five decades.

It appears you missed the forest for the trees.

Basic question for you... Do you disagree with my premise that the cops would've responded differently if the shooter had a revolver? Do you think as many kids would've been killed with a .38 or even a .44 Mag?
Click to expand...
Why do you use revolvers? Why not say 2 glocks with 17rd mags?
 
RookieWYhntr said:
Do you know anyone who carried ammo cans in the military?
Click to expand...
Yes.

These two, both my grandfathers and it wasn't just a training exercise either:

IMG_0007.jpg


IMG_0008.jpg


And you'd be lucky to carry their jock straps.
 
RookieWYhntr said:
Why do you use revolvers? Why not say 2 glocks with 17rd mags?
Click to expand...
For the sake of the example.

But to the crux of your question... You are making my point for me by acknowledging that the weapon the cop is up against affects their response.

If they'd respond differently to a Glock with a 17rd mag than to a 6-shot revolver, then you're admitting that they'd respond differently to a .223 with a bunch of 30rd mags (or even a drum mag like was used in the theater shooting).
 
grizzly said:
For the sake of the example.

But to the crux of your question... You are making my point for me by acknowledging that the weapon the cop is up against affects their response.

If they'd respond differently to a Glock with a 17rd mag than to a 6-shot revolver, then you're admitting that they'd respond differently to a .223 with a bunch of 30rd mags (or even a drum mag like was used in the theater shooting).
Click to expand...
No man. The subject is about ARs. My point is you can't tell an AR from a couple glocks going off in a closed room. Cops just hear rapid firing they are afraid of that over what type of weapon it is.
 
RookieWYhntr said:
No man. The subject is about ARs. My point is you can't tell an AR from a couple glocks going off in a closed room. Cops just hear rapid firing they are afraid of that over what type of weapon it is.
Click to expand...
Seriously?

Good grief, go to a rifle range once in a while.

Second, why would it matter what firearm is "going off"?
 
BuzzH said:
I agree, like people making claims that .22 centerfires aren't "a high caliber killing machine".

I used to think people that hunted actually had a clue about firearms, apparently not.
Click to expand...
What if anything does your response have to do with MY post.

Nothing...

Now do you actually think that banning mean guns will stop this?

If so please make a list of the mean guns you would like to see banned.

The point some are trying to make isn't that the AR isn't capable of terrible things, it's that it's not the MOST or ONLY capable tool.

The fact that you quote my post not to respond to it but to respond to someone else's make you a troll who is more concerned with making a gotcha funny post than an intelligent response.
 
RookieWYhntr said:
No man. The subject is about ARs. My point is you can't tell an AR from a couple glocks going off in a closed room. Cops just hear rapid firing they are afraid of that over what type of weapon it is.
Click to expand...
Do you think cops don't know the difference in terminal performance of a 9mm vs a .223?

Screenshot_20220715-110909_Samsung Internet.jpg
 
huntindad4 said:
What if anything does your response have to do with MY post.

Nothing...

Now do you actually think that banning mean guns will stop this?

If so please make a list of the mean guns you would like to see banned.

The point some are trying to make isn't that the AR isn't capable of terrible things, it's that it's not the MOST or ONLY capable tool.

The fact that you quote my post not to respond to it but to respond to someone else's make you a troll who is more concerned with making a gotcha funny post than an intelligent response.
Click to expand...
I agreed with your assessment in your first post, that people really are clueless about firearms and application of same.

To the point that some even believe a .223 on an AR platform is not a high powered killing machine as a classic example. As are the other examples you gave, I understand and agree with your point.

Or that some believe its impossible for a trained LEO to know the difference between the sound of a glock being fired from an AR, etc.

You're absolutely right, common sense on this board is far from common.

When its pointed out, people get upset.

For the record, I've stated dozens of times, I'm not in favor of banning any firearms. But, the common sense you claim is lacking is again on full display on this board. The denial that many live in thinking the next mass killing will not have a high likelihood of happening with an AR type platform, high capacity handgun, etc. is laughable. Its nonsense and illogical to think otherwise.

I think the risk of owning firearms is worth it, even with the mass shootings at schools, concerts, grocery stores, churches, etc.

Common sense tells me that it will continue happening and that all we can really do about it is bury the dead and hope its not us next time. Nothing is going to change.
 
Last edited:
BuzzH said:
I agreed with your assessment in your first post, that people really are clueless about firearms and application of same.

To the point that some even believe a .223 on an AR platform is not a high powered killing machine as a classic example. As are the other examples you gave, I understand and agree with your point.

Or that some believe its impossible for a trained LEO to know the difference between the sound of a glock being fired from an AR, etc.

You're absolutely right, common sense on this board is far from common.

When its pointed out, people get upset.

For the record, I've stated dozens of times, I'm not in favor of banning any firearms. But, the common sense you claim is lacking is again on full display on this board. The denial that many live in thinking the next mass killing will not have a high likelihood of happening with an AR type platform, high capacity handgun, etc. is laughable. Its nonsense and illogical to think otherwise.

I think the risk of owning firearms is worth it, even with the mass shootings at schools, concerts, grocery stores, churches, etc.

Common sense tells me that it will continue happening and that all we can really do about it is bury the dead and hope its not us next time. Nothing is going to change.
Click to expand...
Thanks. I agree with most of your response. I don't think anyone here has said the next one of these attacks won't be with an AR or high capacity handgun etc.. I know I haven't seen it.

You may not support banning some form of firearm in an attempt to stop this but some here plainly do. I merely pointed out that if that happens it will simply be replaced by an equally deadly tool.

As to the law enforcement portion of this, I know a few LEOs and I don't thinkni know one who would stand outside of the door while children are being killed. I know a few who would charge in unarmed if they thought there was even a slight chance of saving one child.

I feel the lack of response was due more to orders than what gun was being fired in that room.

That said I don't know the officers involved nor their willingness to put their lives in danger.

I would add, if your training is not significant enough to take tactical advantage over an inexperienced (99% of these assailants are), mentally challenged creep with a gun he just bought you probably haven't earned more pay and benefits that some say are required to get better LEOs. They are underpaid for sure but you can't hire a bunch of folks for big money and benefits, then put time and training into them only to find out they are lazy or borderline criminals themselves or cowards who will only go into a storm if facing their preference in threat.
 
huntindad4 said:
Thanks. I agree with most of your response. I don't think anyone here has said the next one of these attacks won't be with an AR or high capacity handgun etc.. I know I haven't seen it.

You may not support banning some form of firearm in an attempt to stop this but some here plainly do. I merely pointed out that if that happens it will simply be replaced by an equally deadly tool.

As to the law enforcement portion of this, I know a few LEOs and I don't thinkni know one who would stand outside of the door while children are being killed. I know a few who would charge in unarmed if they thought there was even a slight chance of saving one child.

I feel the lack of response was due more to orders than what gun was being fired in that room.

That said I don't know the officers involved nor their willingness to put their lives in danger.

I would add, if your training is not significant enough to take tactical advantage over an inexperienced (99% of these assailants are), mentally challenged creep with a gun he just bought you probably haven't earned more pay and benefits that some say are required to get better LEOs. They are underpaid for sure but you can't hire a bunch of folks for big money and benefits, then put time and training into them only to find out they are lazy or borderline criminals themselves or cowards who will only go into a storm if facing their preference in threat.
Click to expand...
Only thing I will add is that there are reasons why things happen.

For instance, there's a reason that a former LEO on this board made the comment that with 11 open LEO positions, they had 7 applicants and only 2 passed a written exam.

That doesn't happen in a vacuum and for no good reason.

Yet, we have other folks on here saying we need to hire another 262,000 LEO's to provide coverage for schools when we cant even fill vacant positions now.

That's all fine and dandy, but just like with finding another firearm, those people wanting to commit mass murder will just find another place to shoot up.

Again, its that whole common sense thing you were talking about that people just don't get it (and I agree).
 
BuzzH said:
Couple points, one you obviously don't know much about firearms, including .22 centerfires.

I've killed a bunch of big-game with .22 centerfires, they kill big-game just fine. If you actually hunted some, you wouldn't make such outlandish claims.

Your second to last paragraph, is the precise reason why LEO positions are not being filled. Why, an ex LEO on this board said that with 11 open positions, 7 applied only 2 were able to pass a written test. Nobody is going to work for peanut wages and crap benefits, to be second guessed, and have their pensions stripped and charges brought against them because a criminal shot up a bunch of school kids.

Just for fun, lets say that the first couple cops that showed up, charged the room and in the confusion of being shot at by a kid with an AR, there was some collateral deaths (friendly and or not friendly fire in the exchange).

You think those cops would get a pass? NO WAY. They would be ridiculed for NOT waiting, and there would be another whole pack of armchair quarterbacks asking for their jobs, their termination, their pensions.

They're hosed either way, so why risk your job, your life, the well-being of your family for an ungrateful nation?
Click to expand...


Because it's your job. You take the $$, benefits, and pension when you retire in your 40's, there's a chance you might get shot at.

As to .22. Why did the military just change our of that round? Edumicated us rubes
 
huntindad4 said:
Thanks. I agree with most of your response. I don't think anyone here has said the next one of these attacks won't be with an AR or high capacity handgun etc.. I know I haven't seen it.

You may not support banning some form of firearm in an attempt to stop this but some here plainly do. I merely pointed out that if that happens it will simply be replaced by an equally deadly tool.

As to the law enforcement portion of this, I know a few LEOs and I don't thinkni know one who would stand outside of the door while children are being killed. I know a few who would charge in unarmed if they thought there was even a slight chance of saving one child.

I feel the lack of response was due more to orders than what gun was being fired in that room.

That said I don't know the officers involved nor their willingness to put their lives in danger.

I would add, if your training is not significant enough to take tactical advantage over an inexperienced (99% of these assailants are), mentally challenged creep with a gun he just bought you probably haven't earned more pay and benefits that some say are required to get better LEOs. They are underpaid for sure but you can't hire a bunch of folks for big money and benefits, then put time and training into them only to find out they are lazy or borderline criminals themselves or cowards who will only go into a storm if facing their preference in threat.
Click to expand...


The dude you agreeing with, also votes for the people who refund you, protest you, etc, etc, etc.
 
grizzly said:
There are a bunch of conflicting points in this one paragraph alone.

I haven't seen anybody here call the .223 a "high caliber killing machine." Who's "regurgitating the lefts talking points" that you're referring to?

The military went to .223 for several reasons, one of which is "spray and pray" because the AR-15-style platform is basically a foolproof weapon (when maintained) that can be used effectively by people with very little training. Sadly, the same rules apply in a school or movie theater as clearing a terrorist house is Afghanistan.

The fact that few of us would use a .223 for deer (though the first antelope I ever shot was with a .22-250 and it worked great), is countered by the fact that none of us are going to grab a Model 70 to defend against a home invasion. They have different purposes and the AR-15 platform (and, yes, we can include the Mini-14, BAR, AR-10, etc...) is really good at what it's designed for. That's why the military has used a variation of it for five decades.

It appears you missed the forest for the trees.

Basic question for you... Do you disagree with my premise that the cops would've responded differently if the shooter had a revolver? Do you think as many kids would've been killed with a .38 or even a .44 Mag?
Click to expand...


So cops, showed up, with rifles and tactical shields. What more were they waiting for? A tank? This wasn't Andy Griffith engaging Rambo.

Same state, dude shoots up a church, and a redneck ends it. No vest, no shield, no training. Just a redneck.

Your telling me if they showed up and he had a mini 14, they would have stormed the gates, but because it was black plastic they held off?

Come on man.

Not sure how my statement about military adoption was any different than yours.

But I will point out, the military has changed paths, for a higher caliber rifle.
 
hossblur said:
The dude you agreeing with, also votes for the people who refund you, protest you, etc, etc, etc.
Click to expand...
Bernie isn't for defunding police he also believes police are not paid enough, which I happen to agree with as well.

He also thinks they need better and more training as well as education.

I also agree.

Not sure what Bernie thinks of refunds, don't care really.
 
BuzzH said:
If the military didn't want them using something lethal, why not paint ball guns? Or airsoft?

Unbelievable.

Taking stupid to places it's never been.
Click to expand...
I'm truly sorry you don't know the story or history of the Mike 16. It is very interesting and eye opening.
 
hossblur said:
The dude you agreeing with, also votes for the people who refund you, protest you, etc, etc, etc.
Click to expand...
I agree with points and posts I find worthy of agreement here. I don't care who makes them, let alone who they voted for. Any more than I'm going to agree with a point or post that makes no sense or is just stupid based on who made it and because I like who they voted for.
 
eelgrass said:
I'm truly sorry you don't know the story or history of the Mike 16. It is very interesting and eye opening.
Click to expand...
And according to hoss, not very lethal...in fairness maybe the Mike 16 isn't really all that lethal. Maybe practicing the phonetic alphabet? Who knows, this place is strange.

I thought we were still discussing the .223 and various platforms?
 
huntindad4 said:
I agree with points and posts I find worthy of agreement here. I don't care who makes them, let alone who they voted for. Any more than I'm going to agree with a point or post that makes no sense or is just stupid based on who made it and because I like who they voted for.
Click to expand...
Totally agree with this. The trouble is folks like hossblur, marburg, and others here can't keep politics out of anything.

If you don't think, vote, etc. 100% like they do, you're the enemy.

Its unbelievable.
 
BuzzH said:
And according to hoss, not very lethal...in fairness maybe the Mike 16 isn't really all that lethal. Maybe practicing the phonetic alphabet? Who knows, this place is strange.

I thought we were still discussing the .223 and various platforms?
Click to expand...
My Vietnam veteran friend calls it the Mike 16, that's all. If you kill an enemy, he's done. If you wound an enemy, you tied up several enemy combatants. Just saying. Killing was not always the goal.
 
BuzzH said:
Totally agree with this. The trouble is folks like hossblur, marburg, and others here can't keep politics out of anything.

If you don't think, vote, etc. 100% like they do, you're the enemy.

Its unbelievable.
Click to expand...

Your a f-ing union rep and you are lecturing anyone on politics?

Good lord. Your whole job is dependent on kissing Dem Azz. You say a lot of stupid chit, but "why do we need to interject politics", is only your second stupidest.

freebeacon.com

Sanders Claims 'Nobody' He Knows Supports Defunding Police - Washington Free Beacon

Sen. Bernie Sanders (I., Vt.) said he doesn't know any candidate who supports defunding the police—even though numerous left-wingers have called for slashing police budgets or abolishing police departments altogether.
freebeacon.com freebeacon.com

Btw, same dude used to support gun rights too.
 
huntindad4 said:
I agree with points and posts I find worthy of agreement here. I don't care who makes them, let alone who they voted for. Any more than I'm going to agree with a point or post that makes no sense or is just stupid based on who made it and because I like who they voted for.
Click to expand...


Be nice if we were debating around the edges. But one side wants a total ban. I know, @Buzz will tell you that's not true. But @Buzz, has Dem boots to lick, and his pension matters more to him, than any right you have.

Again. He lives in one of the most conservative states in the country, that is one of the most armed. He's safe from the consequences of his stated beliefs. Notice he doesn't live in Colorado or Oregon. Plenty of hunting and Forest Service everywhere, but like a coward, he hides in Wyoming, then spews crap because he has to stay in good with the Union funders.

Tog deserves more credibility, he spews it, and lives it
 
hossblur said:
Be nice if we were debating around the edges. But one side wants a total ban. I know, @Buzz will tell you that's not true. But @Buzz, has Dem boots to lick, and his pension matters more to him, than any right you have.

Again. He lives in one of the most conservative states in the country, that is one of the most armed. He's safe from the consequences of his stated beliefs. Notice he doesn't live in Colorado or Oregon. Plenty of hunting and Forest Service everywhere, but like a coward, he hides in Wyoming, then spews crap because he has to stay in good with the Union funders.

Tog deserves more credibility, he spews it, and lives it
Click to expand...
You're just wrong.

The only reason I live in Wyoming is for the hunting and fishing. I've had many opportunities to chase significantly more money elsewhere, always have passed.

Money doesn't drive my decisions on where to live, what does is being able to have quality elk, deer, and pronghorn tags in my hand every year.

Don't care about how many people that live here own firearms, certainly could care less about the political leaning, those things do not enter into my decisions.

Oregon and Colorado don't have even close to the quality of hunting Wyoming does. If they did I would already be there.

Get it through your head, not everyone is like you. Not everyone is motivated and makes every decision based on money.

I'm certainly not going to spend all my time in Wyoming in retirement though. We've done well enough to live outside the US a portion of the year.
 
The real issue is that some on “the right” argue as if there isn’t a problem at all. No consideration of taking guns out of the hands of crazies.

All or nothing is a strategy that worked before everyone on earth can see the dead kids on their phone.

Adapt or die.
 
Bluehair said:
The real issue is that some on “the right” argue as if there isn’t a problem at all. No consideration of taking guns out of the hands of crazies.
Click to expand...
Take it from one guy on the right- there is a problem. Also, taking guns out of the hands of crazies would be the most awesome thing ever.

Just how in the heck do we do that? When I hear a single good idea on how to do EXACTLY that, I'll sign on with gusto!
 
HikeHunt61 said:
Take it from one guy on the right- there is a problem. Also, taking guns out of the hands of crazies would be the most awesome thing ever.

Just how in the heck do we do that? When I hear a single good idea on how to do EXACTLY that, I'll sign on with gusto!
Click to expand...
Keep people from becoming crazies to start with.

I know, won't work because it costs money, takes time, and takes effort.

We definitely can't take firearms away, we can't hire more police, so nothing will change.

Really not worth discussing even. Just counting the days between shootings is about all we can do.
 
a"High caliber killing machine" is jibberish.....a .223 is a high velocity small caliber killing machine....without question.

I am as far to the "own anything you want " side as you can get but when I hear right wing politicians talk about the AR15 in 223 (5.56) as just a 22....I shudder....stupid stupid thing to say.
 
I will say this- the far left believes that you can cure crazy. That's crazy. The far right thinks that any change to a gun law is the end of the world. That's crazy too.

Again- If the middle could simply put aside both fringes and come up with an approach that doesn't threaten millions of legit gun owners, and actually reduces chances of crazies going ballistic, that'd be awesome.

I have heard many decent ideas that would have positive effects. The problem is those decent ideas don't take away guns from the right, so the far left refuses to support them. Oh- and the far right is unwilling to make any changes at all.

The actual problem resides with the political divide in the country. There are virtually no "middle" politicians in Congress. So stuck we are, indeed.
 
You Could Ban Every AR/BLACK/ASSAULT Weapon Today & Nothing Changes!

ABSO-F'N-LUTELY Nothing!

But dude Will Argue!

Of Course He'd Also Argue With Himself.............!
 
Homer said:
a"High caliber killing machine" is jibberish.....a .223 is a high velocity small caliber killing machine....without question.

I am as far to the "own anything you want " side as you can get but when I hear right wing politicians talk about the AR15 in 223 (5.56) as just a 22....I shudder....stupid stupid thing to say.
Click to expand...
And about 10% of us care about this inside baseball diversion. We’re to the dead kids every week stage now.

EA, I don’t know about what exactly the duderino did to you, but he definitely lives in your head.
 

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