Politics and agenda pushers at their finest!

Giddyup said:
Personally I would like baiting and trail cams banned. Nothing wrong with some of these animals surviving thru the hunts. That is how they get bigger. I love seeing the big ones that made it thru the hunt. It’s one smart animal to make it with all the technology now days. Or really lucky
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'

Or they got spooked by all the scouting hunters and they went nocturnal.
eelgrass said:
Humans are very proficient at just about everything we decide to do. We make better, more accurate firearms that shoot farther, more powerful spotting scopes, vehicles that go more places, bows that shoot farther, trail cameras, etc. It's human nature to figure out how to do just about everything easier. It's just who we are. If baiting continues, someone will develop an attractant that deer can't resist. You know it's coming.

At some point we need to decide that easier is not always the best way to go. If we lose the thrill and challenge involved in hunting, then what's the point?
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Or we can take up traditional bow hunting and we can get within 20 yards of a bugling elk.
 
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Loving our wildlife to death. Literally
We are our worst enemy. Many don’t know how to self regulate. I love hunting and killing just as much as the next guy. But I also enjoy filming them and just watching them in their element as well.
 
The Masturs will always come up with a new edge, come on your in the Super Bowl of Mule Deer Hunting. How do I know, I used to be one. When you get got up in the madness of killing the best, the limits seem never ending. Maybe it’s because I’m older now, today I feel my rifle, bow or muzzle loader in hand hunting an animal one on one, tracking, waiting for a wind change to make a move, and trying to out think the animals next move. Wether I bag my my Buck, or he out smarts me to live another year, I can walk away being happy. If you got rid of bait and cameras, guys would actually start hunting again using their own intuition. This also comes with age, I don’t have to know everything that is out there, in fact I would rather be surprised by a big buck encounter in the field than have an outfitter send me scores of pictures of bucks for months that we will be chasing, show up to shoot it off an apple pile, or sit in a ground blind for a week of disappointment.
 
I like how everyone fits into this narrative that the anti-bait crowd draws in their head of the pro-baiting crowd. Somehow they are convinced that those guys can't spot and stalk, and its only about horns for them, and they don't feel as fulfilled in their hunt.

In reality the pro-baiting crowd spot and stalk hunts also, hunts for meat and horns, and feels great hunting any way they choose to.

Pro-baiters and anti-baiters aren't that much different than each other. The problem is there is a percentage, not all, of the anti-baiters who feel it is their duty to force everyone else to think, feel, and hunt as they approve.
 
This new "ignore" feature is really impacting Bessys self esteem haha. Somebody respond to his babbling nonsense before he gets his feelings hurt.
 
Vanilla said:
To be clear, I don't think you're a liar, nor did I ever call you a liar. I think you and I disagree on a method to pursue game being proper or not. Nothing more, nothing less. I really meant it when I said it is not personal, but for some reason, your response makes it seem like you are way more emotionally invested in this topic than I am.

I won't apologize for disagreeing respectfully with you. If your feelings are hurt over the discussion, that's more about you than anyone else. I don't think you are a bad person for wanting to be allowed to bait deer. You shouldn't think others are a bad person for thinking people should be prohibited from doing that.
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Of course I'm way more emotionally invested in this topic than you are. If baiting is banned, I can't afford to continue safely hunting deer! You can! NOTHING changes for you either way, but EVERYTHING changes for me. To me, that makes it personal because it doesn't have to happen to me, yet you want it to happen to ALL people (which includes me) simply because you don't like the way SOME people are doing it and you either can't or don't want to make that distinction.
 
I just don't see how you can't safely hunt anymore without apples. I'm not understanding that one. Help me understand, and maybe I'll change my mind.

Just don't tell me it doesn't work, and then tell me you need it to happen so you can safely hunt. Those two things don't square. Educate me on why you NEED apples to be able to not only hunt, but hunt safely.
 
Vanilla said:
I just don't see how you can't safely hunt anymore without apples. I'm not understanding that one. Help me understand, and maybe I'll change my mind.

Just don't tell me it doesn't work, and then tell me you need it to happen so you can safely hunt. Those two things don't square. Educate me on why you NEED apples to be able to not only hunt, but hunt safely.
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Oh, the follies of Youth! You should know me enough by now to that I don't think like you. Everyone around me when I'm hunting can feel perfectly safe. That is, everyone but me!

Perhaps you should ask that question when you are 78 years old, and have osteoporosis and 2 bad heart valves, and have A-fib, and are on 2 blood thinners, and have balance issues, and have been hauled twice off the mountain for A-fib while hunting (Once by the volunteer paramedics at Duck Creek Village and once by a retired nurse who happened to be at the overlook at Big Mountain Pass), and have had 4 heart catheter procedures, and have had 16 cardioversions where they have to stop your heart and then restart it with paddles to get it back in rhythm. I've been pretty lucky so far, but any slip, fall, or stumble, knife cut, skin tear from a tree branch, puncture from an antler or a hoof of a deer not quite dead, or a cut from an arrowhead that didn't quite make it straight out of the bow or spending the night in a steep canyon with no phone service trying to recover a 150 dead deer may be a severe inconvenience to you. To me, it could be fatal.

Even in the best of situations, if that deer doesn't drop dead on level ground within 200 yards, I'm in trouble. Baiting, the way I do it, affords me a better chance at that close, clear, level, standing, broadside bowshot at a calm animal who doesn't see me draw. Without that chance, I ain't goin'.

Yes, of course, the way I bait works! And it works perfectly for the purpose I stated above. I've never stated otherwise. BUT, it doesn't work for the purposes you want to ban it for. And it certainly doesn't work as well as you need it to work in order to claim it needs to be banned. A 4 foot PILE of bright yellow apples maintained 24-7 in a place the deer have never seen before works for the guide's and trophy hunter's purposes. And gives you reason to complain. 20 ugly, bird-pecked, wormy, half rotten apples that fell off my tree in the back and scattered over a 5 x 5 yard area near a guzzler the deer and elk already use a couple of times a week doesn't. They are feeding, not baiting. I am baiting, not feeding. There's a big difference but if you can't see that, then you do what you have to do and I'll do what I have to do and we'll both move on.

We have 3 or 4 threads on this forum about baiting where my name keeps coming up and you keep asking the same questions and I keep giving the same answers. Bottom line; If you ban all baiting as you have chosen to describe it, I'll quit hunting deer. I'll have no choice.

PS. No, I'll never hunt from a treestand again. That's REALLY risky for me now. Maybe I need to change my internet name to elkfromtheground. :)
 
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elkfromabove said:
Oh, the follies of Youth! You should know me enough by now to that I don't think like you. Everyone around me when I'm hunting can feel perfectly safe. That is, everyone but me!

Perhaps you should ask that question when you are 78 years old, and have osteoporosis and 2 bad heart valves, and have A-fib, and are on 2 blood thinners, and have balance issues, and have been hauled twice off the mountain for A-fib while hunting (Once by the volunteer paramedics at Duck Creek Village and once by a retired nurse who happened to be at the overlook at Big Mountain Pass), and have had 4 heart catheter procedures, and have had 16 cardioversions where they have to stop your heart and then restart it with paddles to get it back in rhythm. I've been pretty lucky so far, but any slip, fall, or stumble, knife cut, skin tear from a tree branch, puncture from an antler or a hoof of a deer not quite dead, or a cut from an arrowhead that didn't quite make it straight out of the bow or spending the night in a steep canyon with no phone service trying to recover a 150 dead deer may be a severe inconvenience to you. To me, it could be fatal.

Even in the best of situations, if that deer doesn't drop dead on level ground within 200 yards, I'm in trouble. Baiting, the way I do it, affords me a better chance at that close, clear, level, standing, broadside bowshot at a calm animal who doesn't see me draw. Without that chance, I ain't goin'.

Yes, of course, the way I bait works! And it works perfectly for the purpose I stated above. I've never stated otherwise. BUT, it doesn't work for the purposes you want to ban it for. And it certainly doesn't work as well as you need it to work in order to claim it needs to be banned. A 4 foot PILE of bright yellow apples maintained 24-7 in a place the deer have never seen before works for the guide's and trophy hunter's purposes. And gives you reason to complain. 20 ugly, bird-pecked, wormy, half rotten apples that fell off my tree in the back and scattered over a 5 x 5 area near a guzzler the deer and elk already use a couple of times a week doesn't. They are feeding, not baiting. I am baiting, not feeding. There's a big difference but if you can't see that, then you do what you have to do and I'll do what I have to do and we'll both move on.

We have 3 or 4 threads on this forum about baiting where my name keeps coming up and you keep asking the same questions and I keep giving the same answers. Bottom line; If you ban all baiting as you have chosen to describe it, I'll quit hunting deer. I'll have no choice.

PS. No, I'll never hunt from a treestand again. That's REALLY risky for me now. Maybe I need to change my internet name to elkfromtheground. :)
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Goodness, I will give you props for not being a quitter that’s for damn sure!!!!
 
" Bottom line; If you ban all baiting as you have chosen to describe it, I'll quit hunting deer. I'll have no choice."

Why do you think these guys want to ban baiting? THEY ARE PRAYING YOU AND A LOT OF OTHERS QUIT HUNTING DEER. In their eyes that's more for them. It's a greed issue for them. They just haven't been honest with anyone yet.
 
elkfromabove said:
Oh, the follies of Youth! You should know me enough by now to that I don't think like you. Everyone around me when I'm hunting can feel perfectly safe. That is, everyone but me!

Perhaps you should ask that question when you are 78 years old, and have osteoporosis and 2 bad heart valves, and have A-fib, and are on 2 blood thinners, and have balance issues, and have been hauled twice off the mountain for A-fib while hunting (Once by the volunteer paramedics at Duck Creek Village and once by a retired nurse who happened to be at the overlook at Big Mountain Pass), and have had 4 heart catheter procedures, and have had 16 cardioversions where they have to stop your heart and then restart it with paddles to get it back in rhythm. I've been pretty lucky so far, but any slip, fall, or stumble, knife cut, skin tear from a tree branch, puncture from an antler or a hoof of a deer not quite dead, or a cut from an arrowhead that didn't quite make it straight out of the bow or spending the night in a steep canyon with no phone service trying to recover a 150 dead deer may be a severe inconvenience to you. To me, it could be fatal.

Even in the best of situations, if that deer doesn't drop dead on level ground within 200 yards, I'm in trouble. Baiting, the way I do it, affords me a better chance at that close, clear, level, standing, broadside bowshot at a calm animal who doesn't see me draw. Without that chance, I ain't goin'.

Yes, of course, the way I bait works! And it works perfectly for the purpose I stated above. I've never stated otherwise. BUT, it doesn't work for the purposes you want to ban it for. And it certainly doesn't work as well as you need it to work in order to claim it needs to be banned. A 4 foot PILE of bright yellow apples maintained 24-7 in a place the deer have never seen before works for the guide's and trophy hunter's purposes. And gives you reason to complain. 20 ugly, bird-pecked, wormy, half rotten apples that fell off my tree in the back and scattered over a 5 x 5 yard area near a guzzler the deer and elk already use a couple of times a week doesn't. They are feeding, not baiting. I am baiting, not feeding. There's a big difference but if you can't see that, then you do what you have to do and I'll do what I have to do and we'll both move on.

We have 3 or 4 threads on this forum about baiting where my name keeps coming up and you keep asking the same questions and I keep giving the same answers. Bottom line; If you ban all baiting as you have chosen to describe it, I'll quit hunting deer. I'll have no choice.

PS. No, I'll never hunt from a treestand again. That's REALLY risky for me now. Maybe I need to change my internet name to elkfromtheground. :)
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You know that Fish and Game divisions all over give out special permits or give the hunter an advantage given a certain health issue.
If you can prove your eyesight is bad in Nevada they will give you an exception to use a low power scope on your muzzy.
I am sure from your post that you qualify for a special permit.
My buddy who blew out his shoulder years ago gets a special permit from Kali F&G to use a cross bow when hunting during Archery season.

I agree you are no quitter and most love hunting to keep going after all you have been through.
I have a pace maker and still hit it as hard as I can at this point don't know how long I can keep it up but once I can't I will.

There is still nothing like sitting in the dark waiting for shooting light sitting on a mountain top. Closest to God I say when I am up there. Good luck on your future hunts
Elkfrombelow or Elkfrombehindabush
 
Tristate said:
Why do you think these guys want to ban baiting? THEY ARE PRAYING YOU AND A LOT OF OTHERS QUIT HUNTING DEER. In their eyes that's more for them. It's a greed issue for them. They just haven't been honest with anyone yet.
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This could not be further from the truth, and the sad thing is that you know it. I think sometimes you spew junk just on the fly, but this one is a full blown intentional lie. You’re pathetic.

Even EFA knows that. I don’t know that there has been another member on this forum that more open advocates for more increased hunter opportunity than I do. If there is one, point them out. Another lie proven, yet you won’t go away. Just more lies.
 
EFA, I see why you do what you do. You’re certainly an outlier, and unfortunately outliers often get overlooked in regulation. If this ban goes through, like I still believe it should, I’ll volunteer to come down to your neck of the woods in 2021 (ban won’t happen this year) and be your legs for you after the kill. I could learn a lot from you and it would be a pleasure.
 
Vanilla,

You don't even know what the word "Irresponsible" means.

" I don’t know that there has been another member on this forum that more open advocates for more increased hunter opportunity than I do. "

You are literally telling people you want to take away "opportunity" for tens of thousands of hunters and still claim you are the champion for opportunity. YOU DON'T GET TO HAVE IT BOTH WAYS.

Its like listening to ol' Hillary talk about all the industries she's going to shut down when she becomes president, but unemployment is going to fall. ;)
 
Vanilla,

EFA ain't an outlier. There are thousands of people that use baiting "RESPONSIBLY" for hunting. People of all ages with disabilities. Wounded vets, the elderly, people who want to introduce little kids to hunting, etc etc.
 
Vanilla said:
This could not be further from the truth, and the sad thing is that you know it. I think sometimes you spew junk just on the fly, but this one is a full blown intentional lie. You’re pathetic.

Even EFA knows that. I don’t know that there has been another member on this forum that more open advocates for more increased hunter opportunity than I do. If there is one, point them out. Another lie proven, yet you won’t go away. Just more lies.
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I don't know what he wrote (Ain't the new ignore feature marvelous.), but thanks for understanding my plight and your defense of it. And thanks for your offer to help if I draw my Panguitch Lake archery tag. I was hoping it wouldn't start this year and that's why I applied for it.

Edited: Sorry, I misread your post. In fact, if this happens, I won't be hunting buck deer in 2021. But, since I may this year, maybe it would be more fun if you came down (I don't know where you live.) and helped me set up the blinds this year before the archery hunt. I usually do it alone, but another pair of hands would make it easier and faster. And, that way, I could show you how others could do it without the bait and we could talk while we worked. I'm sure I could learn a lot from you as well. email me at [email protected] if interested. Lee
 
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Vanilla said:
This could not be further from the truth, and the sad thing is that you know it. I think sometimes you spew junk just on the fly, but this one is a full blown intentional lie. You’re pathetic.

Even EFA knows that. I don’t know that there has been another member on this forum that more open advocates for more increased hunter opportunity than I do. If there is one, point them out. Another lie proven, yet you won’t go away. Just more lies.
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Actually the whole point of this thread is to point out that there is a group of dedicated shed hunters and professional photographers that are trying to create more restrictions, including baiting. They would also like nothing more than to see more tag cuts or whatever it takes to get more mature trophy bucks through the seasons.
 
ridgetops said:
Actually the whole point of this thread is to point out that there is a group of dedicated shed hunters and professional photographers that are trying to create more restrictions, including baiting. They would also like nothing more than to see more tag cuts or whatever it takes to get more mature trophy bucks through the seasons.
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Sorry ridge, but I disagree. There are a whole lot more of us “common folk” that think it’s time to take action on these two specific things than dedicated shed hunters and professional photographers. And the way I see this going, it won’t take a single tag out of anyone’s hands. It will just take methods that I think have gone to far out of their hands.

Like I said irresponsible and inconsiderate acts bring regulation, and that goes well beyond the hunting world. It hurts the guys like EFA because others can’t control themselves.
 
"Like I said irresponsible and inconsiderate acts bring regulation,"

Then go deal with the irresponsible and inconsiderate acts. Baiting a deer is neither AND YOU KNOW IT. You are using someone else's behavior as a childish justification to cram your ethics down someone else's throat.

I have asked you before to tell me what is "irresponsible" about baiting or using a trail camera and you haven't done it yet. You talk about other behavior conflicts but none of them have anything to do with whether baiting or taking a deer's picture is "irresponsible". For you it is nothing more than a $5 word you get to thrust into a conversation without knowing what it means.

Do you want to know what is "irresponsible"? A STATE PAID PROSECUTOR GETTING ON THE INTERNET TELLING PEOPLE SHOOTING OTHER PEOPLE IN THE KNEES IS "ACCEPTABLE RESPONSE".
 
Vanilla said:
Sorry ridge, but I disagree. There are a whole lot more of us “common folk” that think it’s time to take action on these two specific things than dedicated shed hunters and professional photographers. And the way I see this going, it won’t take a single tag out of anyone’s hands. It will just take methods that I think have gone to far out of their hands.

Like I said irresponsible and inconsiderate acts bring regulation, and that goes well beyond the hunting world. It hurts the guys like EFA because others can’t control themselves.
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Of course the common folks are against it when they are told how bad it is by these people. I was just pointing out there are some people in southern Utah getting a lot of people worked up over it. They definitely have a vested interest.
 
There are a lot more people and voices out there than what we hear in the bubble of MM. The anti baiting sentiment is strong here, but in reality what is argued in these forums doesnt amount to much.
 
Giddyup said:
Nothing in this world worse than a thief.
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rapists, specifically child rapists, kidnappers, mass shooters, murders, illegal drug manufacturers/dealers and terrorists are just a few I can think of that I’d list before trail cam thieves. Rather have my all cams stolen than my child raped. But that’s just me

lock your cameras up! You wouldn’t leave your truck unlocked when you leave it on the side of the road to go hunting. Why is your camera any different?
 
Tristate said:
Do you want to know what is "irresponsible"? A STATE PAID PROSECUTOR GETTING ON THE INTERNET TELLING PEOPLE SHOOTING OTHER PEOPLE IN THE KNEES IS "ACCEPTABLE RESPONSE".
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Can you show me where that specific action was labeled as an “ACCEPTABLE RESPONSE”???
 
No I can't. The thread got nuked.

It was one of the 6 bull elk got smoked with a .22. And I actually think you called shooting people in the knees with a .22 an "appropriate response".
 
Tristate said:
No I can't. The thread got nuked.

It was one of the 6 bull elk got smoked with a .22. And I actually think you called shooting people in the knees with a .22 an "appropriate response".
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You “actually think,” but you don’t know. And you are incorrect in the words I used. Not that anyone here will be surprised by that.
 
Vanilla said:
Sorry ridge, but I disagree. There are a whole lot more of us “common folk” that think it’s time to take action on these two specific things than dedicated shed hunters and professional photographers. And the way I see this going, it won’t take a single tag out of anyone’s hands. It will just take methods that I think have gone to far out of their hands.

Like I said irresponsible and inconsiderate acts bring regulation, and that goes well beyond the hunting world. It hurts the guys like EFA because others can’t control themselves.
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One could say long-range shots that will always have some kind of wounding rate is irresponsible and inconsiderate. Maybe banning scopes on rifles but allowing hunters to still use their long-range rifles is the key?:unsure::whistle:
 
Blacktail_Slayer said:
One could say long-range shots that will always have some kind of wounding rate is irresponsible and inconsiderate. Maybe banning scopes on rifles but allowing hunters to still use their long-range rifles is the key?:unsure::whistle:
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It has been suggested in a couple of these threads. By people that shoot long range even. Some people are willing to give up a bit to hopefully have something for future generations....and some aren’t ...

Bill
 
Blacktail_Slayer said:
One could say long-range shots that will always have some kind of wounding rate is irresponsible and inconsiderate. Maybe banning scopes on rifles but allowing hunters to still use their long-range rifles is the key?:unsure::whistle:
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There are absolutely irresponsible shots taken at ranges some have no business taking them. Good luck coming up with the magic distance for that regulation. And if banning scopes is important to you, give it a whirl.
 
I grew up in California where baiting has been illegal for as long as I remember. If you live somewhere where it's legal, go for it. Just don't ask me to do it. And if you kill an animal over bait, by all means prop it up on your bait pile and take some photos. Don't be ashamed of it. I won't argue to make it illegal.
 
There's One of Two things gonna Happen in TARDville this Fall!

We're Either Gonna 'Make Them'!

Or 'Break Them'!

(((Apple Sellers/Growers!)))
 
I Guess What huntindad said Must Be SPLAINED in even more Detail!

I Do Believe What He's Trying to say is:

Some of Us are Willing to make a Few Changes AKA 'New Rules' to Try & Improve the Deer Herd in Hopes of Our Kids,Our Grandkids and Future Generations Have a Chance at the Same Thing We've Experienced in Our Hunting Experiences!

I Could Care Less If I Ever Shoot another Buck (But If I Found the Right Buck....),but I'd Sure Like To See My Kids & GrandKids get a Chance at Some Decent Animals in their Life!

Without Some Serious Changes I Don't see it Happening though!

Like I've Told You All many a times!

When a 2 Point becomes the BIG of Bucks, they'll be Parading them PISSCUTTERS around town in their 150,000.00 Trucks like they're some kind of a GAWD-DAMNED Trophy!
 
None of yall are willing to slash the number of tags to let your kids and grandkids have a hunting future.

Instead it's easier to argue about apples and kick the can down the road.
 
That is NOT True for Me Tri!

Take My F'N Deer Tag!

But I want to see GUARANTEED Improvements!




Tristate said:
None of yall are willing to slash the number of tags to let your kids and grandkids have a hunting future.

Instead it's easier to argue about apples and kick the can down the road.
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I wished people would quit saying that all these hunter management and technic restrictions are for the overall deer herd and it's health, it's not. The truth is, it's only so we can have more mature bucks survive the seasons.(not that there's anything wrong with that). So stop putting a spin on it for the herds sake.
 
ridgetops said:
I wished people would quit saying that all these hunter management and technic restrictions are for the overall deer herd and it's health, it's not. The truth is, it's only so we can have more mature bucks survive the seasons.(not that there's anything wrong with that). So stop putting a spin on it for the herds sake.
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Everyone that wants a change, is based on a selfish reason or gain. It’s as simple as that
 
ridgetops said:
I wished people would quit saying that all these hunter management and technic restrictions are for the overall deer herd and it's health, it's not. The truth is, it's only so we can have more mature bucks survive the seasons.(not that there's anything wrong with that). So stop putting a spin on it for the herds sake.
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Partially true. Those proposals manage hunters. You’ll never effect the deer herd by simply managing hunters.

But managing hunters can increase the overall experience for hunters. And my motivation has nothing to do with increasing the amount of “mature bucks.” You keep ascribing that intent to those that support this, and it’s starting to make me wonder why.
 
ridgetops said:
I wished people would quit saying that all these hunter management and technic restrictions are for the overall deer herd and it's health, it's not. The truth is, it's only so we can have more mature bucks survive the seasons.(not that there's anything wrong with that). So stop putting a spin on it for the herds sake.
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Bullchit!

Elk pretty much summed up my feelings.

I wouldnt ask for the changes to methods of take if I didnt believe it was for the longterm benefit of the herd and future of deer hunting in general..

Bill
 
deerkiller said:
Everyone that wants a change, is based on a selfish reason or gain. It’s as simple as that
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With or without changes, each opinion on this thread or any other on the topic is selfish.

Whether you selfishly want change in hopes of a brighter future for the herd and future hunters or want things to stay as they are for your future. We are all being selfish. No doubt about that.

Bill
 
Vanilla said:
Partially true. Those proposals manage hunters. You’ll never effect the deer herd by simply managing hunters.

But managing hunters can increase the overall experience for hunters. And my motivation has nothing to do with increasing the amount of “mature bucks.” You keep ascribing that intent to those that support this, and it’s starting to make me wonder why.
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Now I'm really confused! By "managing hunters can increase the overall experience for hunters" do you mean: Reducing the number of hunters in the field? Increasing the number of hunters in the field? Reducing their success rate? Increasing their success rate? Limiting the areas they can hunt? Increasing the areas they can hunt? Limiting their methods? Increasing their methods? Limiting the type of equipment used? Expanding the type of equipment used? Issuing fewer tags? Issuing more tags? Shortening seasons? Lengthening seasons? Managing hunters by age? Etc, etc. etc.?

We certainly can continue to manage hunters, but since it never effects the deer herd and the mule deer herds all over the West are struggling, eventually there will be few deer to have overall experiences with.
 
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elkfromabove said:
Now I'm really confused! By "managing hunters can increase the overall experience for hunters" do you mean: Reducing the number of hunters in the field? Increasing the number of hunters in the field? Reducing their success rate? Increasing their success rate? Limiting the areas they can hunt? Increasing the areas they can hunt? Limiting their methods? Increasing their methods? Limiting the type of equipment used? Expanding the type of equipment used? Issuing fewer tags? Issuing more tags? Shortening seasons? Lengthening seasons? Managing hunters by age? Etc, etc. etc.?
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Those would all be ways to manage hunters. We could argue point by point until we're blue in the face on which ones we each agree with, or disagree with. The trick is finding the sweet spot. None of us want 350,000 deer hunters out in the field this year in Utah. That number would not be sustainable in any equation, just as an example. The key for me on tag numbers is offering as many as possible until it has a negative impact on the biological health of the deer herd.

elkfromabove said:
We certainly can continue to manage hunters, but since it never effects the deer herd and the mule deer herds all over the West are struggling, eventually there will be few deer to have overall experiences with.
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That's my whole point. Managing hunters is never going to correct the problems with the deer herds, yet those are the only proposals we regularly hear about. You know this, EFA. There are biological and social aspects to management. Hunter management fits into the "social" side 90% of the time.
 
Vanilla said:
Those would all be ways to manage hunters. We could argue point by point until we're blue in the face on which ones we each agree with, or disagree with. The trick is finding the sweet spot. None of us want 350,000 deer hunters out in the field this year in Utah. That number would not be sustainable in any equation, just as an example. The key for me on tag numbers is offering as many as possible until it has a negative impact on the biological health of the deer herd.



That's my whole point. Managing hunters is never going to correct the problems with the deer herds, yet those are the only proposals we regularly hear about. You know this, EFA. There are biological and social aspects to management. Hunter management fits into the "social" side 90% of the time.
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Huntondad will beg to differ on that idea. You get rid of baiting, trail cams and all other technology and the fawns and does will start living a longer life. Has nothing to do with trying to preserve more bucks to hunt the following year.
 
ridgetops said:
Huntondad will beg to differ on that idea. You get rid of baiting, trail cams and all other technology and the fawns and does will start living a longer life. Has nothing to do with trying to preserve more bucks to hunt the following year.
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It will impact the average lifespan of roughly half of the fawn....the bucks, if hunter success rates go down.

Never said it was the main driver for herd health but it has an impact. And the benefit of keeping the number of hunters that can hunt per season higher.

100 hunters kill 25 bucks without restriction to method of take vs. 100 hunters more restricted in their methods taking half of that is going to increase the herd. If the area has an already high buck to doe ratio then this will not necessarily help the herd but if it doesnt as with most places in the west then it will help the herd quality.

Similarly if the land is at carrying capacity then it will not help the herd but if as most of the west, the land can provide for more then more would survive a hunt stricter on method of take.

It is not THE answer but it is one of them IMO.

Obviously habitat is more important to the health of the herd, with winter range probably being the most impactful.

But alas, we cant get hunters, whose lives are most impacted by herd quality, to agree to some reasonable restrictions on how, when and where we hunt let alone get people who dont hunt and don't really care bout the deer herd to not build their trophy house on the foothill winter range of their dreams.

Bill
 
A good read about herd dynamics is the book “Mule Deer” by Dennis Austin.......it has a lot of good information regarding our state and the mule deer herds health. It was written by a dude with more than 30 years of studying mule deer in Utah
 
elkfromabove said:
Were they?

In the USA, each state is allowed to make it's own laws based on their own reasons. In some states you are allowed to carry a concealed weapon, but in other states you can't .

""" In other states you're allowed to gamble. In Utah, you can't."""

That Statement There is Total BS!

If the HUNT-EXPO Ain't Gambling I've Never seen it!




In some states, a motorcyclist can squeeze between cars at a stoplight. In some states he/she can't.

Just because you are allowed to hunt animals at night in many states, that doesn't mean it's safer. It only means that you are allowed to do something dangerous if you chose to. Personally, I wouldn't chose to.
 
Last edited:
elkassassin said:
elkfromabove said:
Were they?

In the USA, each state is allowed to make it's own laws based on their own reasons. In some states you are allowed to carry a concealed weapon, but in other states you can't .

""" In other states you're allowed to gamble. In Utah, you can't."""

That Statement There is Total BS!

If the HUNT-EXPO Ain't Gambling I've Never seen it!




In some states, a motorcyclist can squeeze between cars at a stoplight. In some states he/she can't.

Just because you are allowed to hunt animals at night in many states, that doesn't mean it's safer. It only means that you are allowed to do something dangerous if you chose to. Personally, I wouldn't chose to.
Click to expand...
Bessy have you been sharing meds again with Jager
 
DeerHunter53 said:
You know that Fish and Game divisions all over give out special permits or give the hunter an advantage given a certain health issue.
If you can prove your eyesight is bad in Nevada they will give you an exception to use a low power scope on your muzzy.
I am sure from your post that you qualify for a special permit.
My buddy who blew out his shoulder years ago gets a special permit from Kali F&G to use a cross bow when hunting during Archery season.

I agree you are no quitter and most love hunting to keep going after all you have been through.
I have a pace maker and still hit it as hard as I can at this point don't know how long I can keep it up but once I can't I will.

There is still nothing like sitting in the dark waiting for shooting light sitting on a mountain top. Closest to God I say when I am up there. Good luck on your future hunts
Elkfrombelow or Elkfrombehindabush
Click to expand...

Thanks for your concern. I really appreciate it. And the same goes to you from me. A pacemaker changes some things, doesn't it? I don't know how you hunt, but if it ever gets to the point you can't do it that way, I could probably show you some alternatives even without bait.

Unfortunately, my conditions and yours don't qualify for a special permit or privileges in Utah. Blindness, wheelchairs, amputations, permanent shoulder injuries will get you some of those, but not heart conditions. We are on our own in that department.

While your morning mountain top scenario sounds wonderful, my steep canyon with a dead 150 lb animal to get out isn't quite so comfortable or safe and I'd rather not be there if I can avoid it.

Have a fun and safe hunt!

Elkoverbait
 
"Everyone that wants a change, is based on a selfish reason or gain. It’s as simple as that"


Not me. I want the deer to be managed correctly then yall can whack them any way yall see fit.

If by selfish you mean I want hunting to continue for all of yall for more generations well shame on me.
 
elkfromabove said:
It appears you've never baited and are basing your decision on what you think you know about it from the info you get from others.

I've been doing off and on at 3 sites for about 15 years. Two sites are on the Panguitch Lake Unit and one site on the Zion Unit. Two sites are on water (a guzzler and a small stream from a spring) and the other is on a well used game trail that goes from some private land where they get water and bed at night to a thick stand of Mountain Mahogany where they feed and bed during the day.

My baiting consists of scattering about 20 apples that have fallen off my tree (or the neighbors' trees) over a 5 x5 yard area next to the water on the water sites and a 4 or 5 lb manufactured wildlife block of feed from CALRanch on the game trail site. I also use a block of mineralized salt made for wildlife from CALRanch on the guzzler.

I'm a bow hunter exclusively and I alternate my hunting on those sites during the archery season to give them (and me) time to get some rest. Plus, I obviously don't use all 3 sites every year because sometimes I don't have a deer tag for that unit and sometimes I'm after elk, not deer, and since the elk don't respond to bait, I don't need it.

During all that time, here's what I have learned:

1) I see the same number of animals whether I bait or not. Deer are creatures of habit and it takes quite a bit to get them to change. A pile or truckload of freshly placed apples every day may get them to do that, but 20 scattered apples sure doesn't!
2) They come and go the same way and time with or without the bait. And guess what they are doing as they come and go? They are feeding on NATURAL forage!
3) If 20 scattered apples is considered too much litter, then I guess I'm guilty and I'll pick them up every night after I'm done hunting. That is, if there are any left since the birds, chipmunks and foxes also eat them. The guzzler is at the end of a "road" and I had a DWR employee come in last year to check the guzzler and I thought he was a CO. So I left my blind to show him my permit (He didn't even see the blind until I came out). He was on the south side of the guzzler and it wasn't until he came around to the north side and stepped on one, that he noticed the apples (mine aren't yellow like the piles you see on this thread) and asked about them and how they work. I told him what I just told you above. We then talked about the guzzler and how it was functioning and he then apologized for interrupting my hunt, wished me good luck and left.
4) I can't speak for LE Unit hunters, but most Utah General Unit hunters are very courteous and respectful of other hunters. I have NEVER had one drive up to the guzzler and make it an issue. Most of them don't even know I'm there until I wave at them from the blind and then they politely nod the heads or tip their flat brimmed hats and turn around and leave. I've even had several of them offer to help me trail an animal I've shot. Additionally, I have a note with my name and phone number in my blind offering to let them use it when I'm not there. I just want to make sure we don't mess each other up with schedules.
5) As for the disease/CWD issues, there may possibly be some slight risk increases but there are ways of dealing with that as well (single bite size pellets, crab apples, banning of bait in units that have problems). And, so far, there are no cases of CWD anywhere near my hunting sites. Per the CWD map, most of the Utah cases are in areas bordering Wyoming and Colorado where there is no baiting, so we know baiting isn't responsible for their increases. Why would it then be responsible for any in Utah?

Nearly all of the problems you site happen on high profile trophy units, not on general hunt units. That ought to tell you something.
Click to expand...
So if baiting isn’t effective (which was essentially what you said in your first and second point)...why haul 20 apples around? Seems like either you aren’t being honest, or you just like the extra weight in your pack?
 
WannaB said:
So if baiting isn’t effective (which was essentially what you said in your first and second point)...why haul 20 apples around? Seems like either you aren’t being honest, or you just like the extra weight in your pack?
Click to expand...

20 scattered apples gives me a better chance for a quick, close, clear, level, standing, broadside, lethal bowshot at a relaxed animal of my choosing that doesn't see me draw the bow. That sounds to me like an ethical thing to do, for both me and the animal.

On the other hand, 20 scattered apples placed in a location the deer and/or elk are already using DO NOT pull animals away from their normal routine nor do they fill them up to the point that they get sick or become dependent on them.

You sometimes give your kids a KIT KAT bar to get them to do their homework, but you don't feed them KIT KAT bars for dinner. That would defeat your purpose for having them hidden in the cupboard.

My hardest task when talking about baiting is to get people to see and acknowledge the difference between baiting and feeding and so far, I apparently haven't convinced enough people to make a difference. If "baiting" as you chose to describe it is banned, then it changes nothing for you, but it changes a great deal for me and others like me.
 
elkfromabove said:
You sometimes give your kids a KIT KAT bar to get them to do their homework, but you don't feed them KIT KAT bars for dinner.
Click to expand...

Much to their chagrin!!!

elkfromabove said:
If "baiting" as you chose to describe it is banned, then it changes nothing for you, but it changes a great deal for me and others like me.
Click to expand...

I understand the differentiation you are making between feeding vs baiting. I don’t think, however, you are considering the negatives that people taking this to extremes has had on others, and maybe even the deer. It will change the overall experience in places, and therefore does change things for people.

Best of luck on everything this year EFA. I truly mean that.
 
Vanilla said:
Much to their chagrin!!!



I understand the differentiation you are making between feeding vs baiting. I don’t think, however, you are considering the negatives that people taking this to extremes has had on others, and maybe even the deer. It will change the overall experience in places, and therefore does change things for people.

Best of luck on everything this year EFA. I truly mean that.
Click to expand...

But I am considering the negatives that people taking this to extremes has had on others! I don't like their extremes anymore than you do. In fact, I like them even less than you do, because what THEY are doing draws negative attention to baiting. Until they started building those piles of apples and calling it baiting in order to keep doing it, very few people even knew, let alone cared about my style of baiting.

All of this reminds me of the gun control advocates using mass shootings as a case against ALL gun owners. My problem is that, unlike the millions of gun owners, there aren't enough baiters willing to stand up against those who want it banned.

I think I've been able to counter your objections with sensible regulations, with the exception of one. And there isn't anything I could say that would change your mind on that one. "It's unethical" or "It's lame" or "It's not fair chase" or "I just don't like it" are not up for debate anymore than your favorite color is. All I can say is that not everyone thinks about it like you do.

In any case, it sounds like it's already a done deal and each of us will have to deal with it in our own way.

I also wish you good fortune in ALL you do.
Lee
 
Which is it hoss?
E49D34C7-E1AE-40E0-9845-A1D3079777EC.png
 

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