No scopes on muzzleloaders

OCHO said:
Paul the portion regarding practice, understanding and effort to learn to hunt and use your weapon is the root of the situation.

As hunters the vast majority of people hunting and drawing tags do NOT do any of what is required to have a good hunt, be an ethical Hunter by any standards and honestly shouldn’t have a tag.


I help at both archery shops so I can give you some very sad examples I heard weekend before the 1st of sept.

I have a bow with 4 arrow quiver and no arrows… how much for 4 arrows and 4 broad heads? I need to tune my bow and rest broad heads today. I leave in 2 days.

If all my vanes and arrow lengths are different will that affect my shooting?

I borrowed my friends kids bow that’s 36# can we move it down to like 28 so I can draw this back? I have second hunt in 15. Hopefully I’m still sighted in after that. Have you been shooting that as is at 36? No cause I can’t pull it back.

What bow sight comes sighted in? How much for you guys to sight my bow in.


A lot of women and kids are the people in this situation. Which is sad that as men or a hunting community some of us have let our kids/friends and family lose their way with hunting and what the tradition is about. Failure to go out in show them.

The facts are no matter what weapon people use if your NOT proficient it can be useless. No matter what weapon you use if your ARE proficient you can use anything. To many think you can buy the best of everything and it guarantees success not true!! It’s just unfortunate the way of the majority world has zero desire to put in work to earn things now.

I agree that giving up rights is just the start of continuing to take even more. Look at California lots of how they and other states are currently at started with small things like trapping ban, coyote hunts etc.

See it’s just like the politics of the world instead of trying to change our minds they try to make use fight each other and implode and cause division. They know if we all had once voice one word we couldn’t be held down or back but unfortunately it works. Reading this thread and lots of threads here and talking to people at the shops it’s very evident its becoming more successful! We don’t have to agree but we can have common ground with out testing each other down!
Click to expand...
All we can do is try to make things better in our own little circle. Just keep trying to do it right, and take new hunters and kids every chance you get.
 
Last chance to comment before October 14 meeting. Send comments to [email protected]. Here is the specific language in the change:

all hunt codes denoted with -3- shall authorize use of bows, crossbows and muzzleloading firearms with open or “iron” sights only (ex. ELK-3-XXX).

They also added this:

The director may authorize reasonable modifications to the manner and method of take for any licensee who has a verifiable medical condition that, in the director’s sole discretion, necessitates such accommodation. This includes allowing the use of a scope of not greater than 1X magnification on muzzle-loading firearms by a person with a visual disability which substantially limits a major life activity and cannot be corrected by glasses or contact lenses.
 
Agree Ocho. It's like trying to mandate ethics. Some ML hunters are deadly accurate to extremely long ranges with scopes. Most are only lobbing that far because they saw someone else do it online. Mandating no scopes just means the same slobs will now be lobbing 200+ with open sights instead of 400+ with scopes. It probably won't change much because it's the person who is the problem, not the weapon.
 
NMPaul said:
Just one thought on it, as I am pretty indifferent on them changing it to a more primitive style ML. Low power scopes will help us old guys that need to use reading glasses. With my CO ML with open sights I am really limited on sites I can use. They are blurry up close like that without readers, and if I wear glasses then you cant see the animal.
Click to expand...
Same here. Had to go to a Williams Peep on the rear of my Hawken. No problems now.
 
smarba said:
Agree Ocho. It's like trying to mandate ethics. Some ML hunters are deadly accurate to extremely long ranges with scopes. Most are only lobbing that far because they saw someone else do it online. Mandating no scopes just means the same slobs will now be lobbing 200+ with open sights instead of 400+ with scopes. It probably won't change much because it's the person who is the problem, not the weapon.
Click to expand...
All of this…..

There’s too much seeing someone else be successful and thinking you can do the same without putting the same amount of effort into it. Both my wife and I have killed elk at 400 and 450 yds with my muzz but that’s a custom gun that I load developed for and checked drops at distance. I know what it could do and where I would hit the elk before pulling the trigger.
 
I guide. Im against muzzy scope bans and against the ban of electronics on bows.

The best thing for elk herds is lower wound rates.

Most of my clients wound two elk with a bow before they “might” kill. Muzzy wound rate is even higher. My clients who use more primitive means wound more. The guys with better technology wound far less.

Now lets divert and say i should walk away from my clients after the first wound and forget i could be sued.

But the facts are facts. Better technology flat out means less wounded and less die. Thats a simple fact. One i cannot ignore. And since my day job is a design engineer for guidance systems and such i would dare say my motto is data drives. Not that it will carry weight.

But there are my two cents
 
IMO, scopes on muzzleloaders and electronics on bows just allow people to push their shooting distance limits and wound animals at further distances. Instead of wounding an animal without a scope at 150 yards, they're doing it at 350 yards with a scope. Same with a bow...they're wounding stuff at 60 yards without electronics and then it gets pushed out to 110 yards with electronics.
 
Bwht4x4 said:
IMO, scopes on muzzleloaders and electronics on bows just allow people to push their shooting distance limits and wound animals at further distances. Instead of wounding an animal without a scope at 150 yards, they're doing it at 350 yards with a scope. Same with a bow...they're wounding stuff at 60 yards without electronics and then it gets pushed out to 110 yards with electronics.
Click to expand...

Except I know people that wound animals at 100 yds without electonic (bow) sights.

Their philosophy is: "well, coyote's got to eat too, right?"...
 
roadrunner said:
Except I know people that wound animals at 100 yds without electonic (bow) sights.

Their philosophy is: "well, coyote's got to eat too, right?"...
Click to expand...
Animals get wounded at all distances due to a variety of circumstances. IMO both archery and muzzy were always meant to be a limited range weapon hunts that generally had lower success rates.
 
Bwht4x4 said:
Animals get wounded at all distances due to a variety of circumstances. IMO both archery and muzzy were always meant to be a limited range weapon hunts that generally had lower success rates.
Click to expand...

And, those who would with "dumb" sights at 100 will begin to wound at 150 with "smart" sights.
 
Bwht4x4 said:
That's the point I'm trying to make. The wounding of game is just shifted to longer distances with smart sights!
Click to expand...
If you watch any hunting online or on TV I guarantee there are just as many white tails wounded at 20 yards as anything even though theoretically that should be a chip shot!

Trying to put ethical standards into a sport/entertainment that is not really required by law is a hard deal. And its very apparent peoples ethics are very different and some don't even tie subjects together with ethics, like hunting! You should NOT shoot that far its unethical. When honestly some people shouldn't be hunting.... Hard situation!

Look at the way the world is... Its the people not the guns... Cough cough... Man made the machine!

Actions and repercussions, responsibilities is what we need! There are so many laws made but often not upheld!! We currently have huge shortage on cops and game and fish.

Majority families are split up and divorced and nobody has an extra 5 minutes to spare despite our unemployment records being at an all time high! And lastly nobody wants to put in the work which is a very high percentage of reason a person often gets in these scenarios. It's work to shoot anything great, be proficient and learn your sport/craft and or hobby.

Don't complain about results you didn't get from the work you didn't do!

I have offered to do a better bowhunter class at the shops but sadly nobody even signs up. You'd have to want to improve and swallow some pride and say how do I get better....

Good luck this year!
 
proverbs is a book of wisdom. I have a lot of friends on here that wonder where I went over the last 10 years. Proverbs talks about various things. One that stands out to me is, give advice to fools and become a fool yourself.

I've killed 100's of animals on my own and as many with clients. Those with scoped muzzys wound far, far, far, far less than those without scopes. Data drives. bows wound less when you KNOW the range vs GUESSTIMATE the range. I have 100's of data points to back me up. The wise will read this and say hmmmmmm maybe theres something to that. the fools will read this and say well, Im prideful and if somethings right in my mind then thats written in stone and I will never listen.

So for 10% of those who read this I'm a wise"ish" person. To the rest I'm a fool.

So I shall slink back off into the shadows and let those who are "right in their own eye" carry on.

Good hunting to you all and no matter what side you are on I hope you all have an amazing year, successful hunts, and a life that is beyond blessed.
 
I'm far sighted, cant see up close and I actually have to remove the aperture and use it more like a ghost ring. I cant see well enough to see through the small aperture, esp. in low light.
Works great with it removed though.
I welcome more primitive muzzy hunts in NM, hoping the odds of drawing an Elk or Muley tag go up.
 
EVILNR said:
I'm far sighted, cant see up close and I actually have to remove the aperture and use it more like a ghost ring. I cant see well enough to see through the small aperture, esp. in low light.
Works great with it removed though.
I welcome more primitive muzzy hunts in NM, hoping the odds of drawing an Elk or Muley tag go up.
Click to expand...
They aren’t buddy I can tell you that right now. I see how many people apply that don’t even really hunt or a friends just told them to try it. Nothing wrong with just the sports growing especially the hunting dynamic of it. The archery shops used to be dead for months on end and people spending $3k in October and November with zero hunts coming up. No more dead time in the archery like years back.
 
Officially just passed in commission meeting today, no more scopes on muzzleloaders starting next season.

Vote was 4 to 1. Salazar Henry voted against based on her opinion that it was poor communication and involvement with the public by the dept. She felt it should have been at least a year or more process.
 
5yearcoueshunter said:
Officially just passed in commission meeting today, no more scopes on muzzleloaders starting next season.

Vote was 4 to 1. Salazar Henry voted against based on her opinion that it was poor communication and involvement with the public by the dept. She felt it should have been at least a year or more process.
Click to expand...
How about Ibex? LOL
 
5yearcoueshunter said:
Officially just passed in commission meeting today, no more scopes on muzzleloaders starting next season.

Vote was 4 to 1. Salazar Henry voted against based on her opinion that it was poor communication and involvement with the public by the dept. She felt it should have been at least a year or more process.
Click to expand...

Might as well make the unit 50/52 antelope a rifle hunt and limit tags.
 
Thought this was about Utah at first. So now Arizona will be the only Western state to allow scopes. Didn’t NM allow smokeless powders also, or am I thinking about somewhere else?
 
SLM said:
Now it’s time to go after turrets and sliders.
Click to expand...
That was my biggest issue. Once they take one thing from you it doesn’t stop. And if you haven’t figured it out not many political types have yours/our best interest hand.

I was dumbfounded the amount of hunters that were for this. And the reasons why. But that’s modern time and it’s very unfortunate.
 
OCHO said:
That was my biggest issue. Once they take one thing from you it doesn’t stop. And if you haven’t figured it out not many political types have yours/our best interest hand.

I was dumbfounded the amount of hunters that were for this. And the reasons why. But that’s modern time and it’s very unfortunate.
Click to expand...

"I'm willing to give up ______ if it means we can have ______." Enter anything you want into the blanks, whether it's a firearm type, hunt, hunt weapon, or even a degree of freedom.

The problem, inherent, is that it is one individual's preference(s) getting in the way or dictating what other's preferences should be.

Those Utahns just don't get this concept as it is alive and well over there...
 
OCHO said:
That was my biggest issue. Once they take one thing from you it doesn’t stop. And if you haven’t figured it out not many political types have yours/our best interest hand.

I was dumbfounded the amount of hunters that were for this. And the reasons why. But that’s modern time and it’s very unfortunate.
Click to expand...
It was surprising. Especially the bow hunters that use sliders, carbon arrows, mechanical broad heads, etc arguing “primitive”. I can see the validity for some deer hunts, but it makes absolutely no sense for elk when NMDGF is saying elk herds are either stable or increasing.
 
Hope G & F understand that in some units the rut is still going when the first rifle hunts this past weekend began....
 
Jarhead said:
Exactly Ocho you got it right that’s why we can’t be voting gays into office Ben gay lujan gabe Vasquez how many faggots have seen hunting they just want to infect our kids and grandkids and don’t say I am hating we need to speak up and take our state and country back and if we have to die doing it so be it.
Click to expand...
Love it man! You’re spot on! The Santa Fe ring is just so damn strong! A century of corrupt politicians and stealing elections!
F22B7E9D-EFC3-4846-8D6A-8D9B11B80FDE.jpeg
 
roadrunner said:
Hope G & F understand that in some units the rut is still going when the first rifle hunts this past weekend began....
Click to expand...
And further to this point how many states have hunts you can try with all three weapons and off the same tag? Ever hunt Colorado it’s pretty big eye opener with the amount of orange In the hills and the amount of deer and elk still there year after year! In lots of cases OTC.

Politics are about emotions not facts and why people have such a hard time being conflicted internally. You don’t like someone’s personality yet they get things done and it doesn’t matter. People judge off your persona not action. This how they get soo much support cresting emotional attachment that doesn’t line up with facts. Blinders go up with emotions and the facts are irrelevant. It works like hell too! Sadly ?
 
@hunt1 I think the answer is "generally negative".
From the proposal from May 2022 (didn't find the final approved text):

(4) all hunt codes denoted with -3- shall authorize use of bows, crossbows and muzzleloading firearms with open or “iron” sights only (ex. ELK-3-XXX).

19.31.10.21 DIRECTOR’S AUTHORITY TO ACCOMMODATE DISABILITY OR MEDICAL IMPAIRMENT: The director may authorize reasonable modifications to the manner and method of take for any licensee who has a verifiable medical condition that, in the director’s sole discretion, necessitates such accommodation. This includes allowing the use of a scope of not greater than 1X magnification on muzzle-loading firearms by a person with a visual disability which substantially limits a major life activity and cannot be corrected by glasses or contact lenses. In order to apply for such accommodation, the licensee shall [...continues...]
 
Reuben_Soady said:
@hunt1 I think the answer is "generally negative".
From the proposal from May 2022 (didn't find the final approved text):

(4) all hunt codes denoted with -3- shall authorize use of bows, crossbows and muzzleloading firearms with open or “iron” sights only (ex. ELK-3-XXX).

19.31.10.21 DIRECTOR’S AUTHORITY TO ACCOMMODATE DISABILITY OR MEDICAL IMPAIRMENT: The director may authorize reasonable modifications to the manner and method of take for any licensee who has a verifiable medical condition that, in the director’s sole discretion, necessitates such accommodation. This includes allowing the use of a scope of not greater than 1X magnification on muzzle-loading firearms by a person with a visual disability which substantially limits a major life activity and cannot be corrected by glasses or contact lenses. In order to apply for such accommodation, the licensee shall [...continues...]
Click to expand...
This is correct. Approved text is: all hunt codes denoted with -3- shall authorize use of bows, crossbows and muzzleloading firearms with open or “iron” sights only (ex. ELK-3-XXX).
 
BioHazrdMan said:
nmwildlife.org

NM State Game Commission Bans Scopes on Muzzleloaders - New Mexico Wildlife Federation - New Mexico Wildlife Federation

By BEN NEARY NMWF Conservation Director Starting next year, New Mexico hunters who take to the field in designated muzzleloader seasons will no longer be able to use scope sights on their guns, the state game commission voted Friday. The New Mexico State Game Commission also voted on Friday to...
nmwildlife.org nmwildlife.org
Click to expand...

"Loren Patterson, president of the New Mexico Cattle Growers’ Association, told commissioners that his organization would like to see more elk harvested in the state. He said cattle operators are seeing their permits reduced because of loss of forage to elk."

So, upset they're seeing USFS/BLM grazing permits reduced because elk are eating natural graze on heritage and public land??? ?
 
I have some mixed feelings about this but think removing scopes from the muzzleloader hunt is the correct choice. Scopes should have never been allowed on muzzleloaders in the first place.

You can still hunt with a scoped muzzleloader if that is what you like, just do it during the rifle season. Muzzleloader seasons were not designed for guys to dial their scope to 500 yards to shoot a deer. This change will make muzzleloader tag easier to draw than they would be otherwise.
 
BrianID said:
I have some mixed feelings about this but think removing scopes from the muzzleloader hunt is the correct choice. Scopes should have never been allowed on muzzleloaders in the first place.

You can still hunt with a scoped muzzleloader if that is what you like, just do it during the rifle season. Muzzleloader seasons were not designed for guys to dial their scope to 500 yards to shoot a deer. This change will make muzzleloader tag easier to draw than they would be otherwise.
Click to expand...

The real "issue" I have is, of course, the few that ruined it for everyone else, and they know who they are. Not everyone has a sniper-pole and the vast majority of muzzy hunters don't really shoot past 200 yds anyway.

At least telling myself that helps me sleep at night.

These people will just figure out a way to be effective at 300 yds with open sights since they have the rifle that can do it.
 
BrianID said:
I have some mixed feelings about this but think removing scopes from the muzzleloader hunt is the correct choice. Scopes should have never been allowed on muzzleloaders in the first place.

You can still hunt with a scoped muzzleloader if that is what you like, just do it during the rifle season. Muzzleloader seasons were not designed for guys to dial their scope to 500 yards to shoot a deer. This change will make muzzleloader tag easier to draw than they would be otherwise.
Click to expand...
It’s just going to cause more wounding of animals. It’s already bad enough that people don’t put in the practice they should for all hunts. It just shows the more primitive type of weapon you use.

Personally I think we can both an opinion on whether guns need X or muzzle loaders do or don’t need Y or if shooting with a bow after Z yardage is ethical, the way it wasn’t supposed to be. Apparently ours differ but if you apply your logic to this situation and life you’d found you don’t need half of what you have yet you still have it. We all love above means of what we have and need.

Your talking about exceptions than the rule on long range dialing stuff. It still takes a tramendous amount of work to get a muzzle loader to shoot well at 200 yards or 500. Some people buy guns done that way but majority have to put the time in to achieve this type of weapon and accuracy . Who are you or me to say that the guy who puts in the work for that should have that taken away when some people who disrespect the sport and sportsmanship by not practing, not going on their hunts etc. In a way that’s their choice but still not right and nothing is done about that.


I. Have said it once and I am saying it again. This was/is to get the success rates back to 20% ish not 40% for success which is the current problem. Cutting tags or other options clearly aren’t the choice. It’s taking away. Yet nothing is done when percentage is far below 20%. One way street.


One deer biologist for the entire state. Surveys for dee have to be requested as I undertake it for areas by wardens. How often you think these things are done? Population speaks for itself.
 
OCHO said:
It still takes a tramendous amount of work to get a muzzle loader to shoot well at 200 yards or 500.
Click to expand...
I disagree. I took an off the shelf 15 year old T/C Omega and put a scope on it and in a few range visits I had it shooting 3 inch groups at 100 yards.
 
OCHO said:
It’s just going to cause more wounding of animals. It’s already bad enough that people don’t put in the practice they should for all hunts. It just shows the more primitive type of weapon you use.

Personally I think we can both an opinion on whether guns need X or muzzle loaders do or don’t need Y or if shooting with a bow after Z yardage is ethical, the way it wasn’t supposed to be. Apparently ours differ but if you apply your logic to this situation and life you’d found you don’t need half of what you have yet you still have it. We all love above means of what we have and need.

Your talking about exceptions than the rule on long range dialing stuff. It still takes a tramendous amount of work to get a muzzle loader to shoot well at 200 yards or 500. Some people buy guns done that way but majority have to put the time in to achieve this type of weapon and accuracy . Who are you or me to say that the guy who puts in the work for that should have that taken away when some people who disrespect the sport and sportsmanship by not practing, not going on their hunts etc. In a way that’s their choice but still not right and nothing is done about that.


I. Have said it once and I am saying it again. This was/is to get the success rates back to 20% ish not 40% for success which is the current problem. Cutting tags or other options clearly aren’t the choice. It’s taking away. Yet nothing is done when percentage is far below 20%. One way street.


One deer biologist for the entire state. Surveys for dee have to be requested as I undertake it for areas by wardens. How often you think these things are done? Population speaks for itself.
Click to expand...

As unpopular as it is, decreasing the amount of outfitters out there would help decrease success rates as well. A lot of guides and outfitters have gotten really good at killing stuff, with or without longrange rifles.
 
Bwht4x4 said:
I disagree. I took an off the shelf 15 year old T/C Omega and put a scope on it and in a few range visits I had it shooting 3 inch groups at 100 yards.
Click to expand...
That’s not that good but if your ok with it, cool. The age of the gun has no relevance to the topic imo. And for me that would be the start of the sight in not the end all and where the hours come In I have tons of sabots and powder and pellets. Different strokes for different folks.
 
Last edited:
OCHO said:
It’s just going to cause more wounding of animals. It’s already bad enough that people don’t put in the practice they should for all hunts. It just shows the more primitive type of weapon you use.

Personally I think we can both an opinion on whether guns need X or muzzle loaders do or don’t need Y or if shooting with a bow after Z yardage is ethical, the way it wasn’t supposed to be. Apparently ours differ but if you apply your logic to this situation and life you’d found you don’t need half of what you have yet you still have it. We all love above means of what we have and need.

Your talking about exceptions than the rule on long range dialing stuff. It still takes a tramendous amount of work to get a muzzle loader to shoot well at 200 yards or 500. Some people buy guns done that way but majority have to put the time in to achieve this type of weapon and accuracy . Who are you or me to say that the guy who puts in the work for that should have that taken away when some people who disrespect the sport and sportsmanship by not practing, not going on their hunts etc. In a way that’s their choice but still not right and nothing is done about that.


I. Have said it once and I am saying it again. This was/is to get the success rates back to 20% ish not 40% for success which is the current problem. Cutting tags or other options clearly aren’t the choice. It’s taking away. Yet nothing is done when percentage is far below 20%. One way street.


One deer biologist for the entire state. Surveys for dee have to be requested as I undertake it for areas by wardens. How often you think these things are done? Population speaks for itself.
Click to expand...
My only argument is that muzzleloader hunts were created to hunt with more traditional muzzleloaders. For my own personal use I would rather have a scope but overall I think it is better to have no scopes on muzzleloaders. You are welcome to disagree with me on that and understand why you are unhappy about the rule change. Scopes should have never been allowed on muzzleloaders in the first place.

You can still hunt with your scoped muzzleloader on rifle hunts. I'm not sure there will really be a significant increase of wounded deer without scopes on muzzleloaders. There will without a doubt be less deer killed (recovered or not recovered) without scopes on muzzleloaders. There will also be less interest in the muzzleloader hunts than there would be otherwise.

I agree, it does take a significant amount of work to set up a muzzleloader to shoot long range. I've done that work and burnt a bunch of $$blackhorn 209$$ to accomplish my results. I've been able to hit targets at 600 and 700 yards with my muzzleloader. There is no way I could do that type of range without a scope. Anything beyond 250 yards will become very challenging without a scope. Even with a lot of practice, 400 yards under field conditions would be extremely difficult without a scope. 400 yards with a scope is no big deal for the guy that puts the time and $$ into it.
 
30 to 40 years ago (with young eyes and shooting my Hawkins at least twice a week if not more) shooting 6” groups at 250 and beyond was very doable with open sites (peeps). At a step away from 60 now and I would not attempt it.

Idaho use to have a patched round ball hunt also. Talk about cutting your range down.
 
roadrunner said:
The real "issue" I have is, of course, the few that ruined it for everyone else, and they know who they are. Not everyone has a sniper-pole and the vast majority of muzzy hunters don't really shoot past 200 yds anyway.

At least telling myself that helps me sleep at night.

These people will just figure out a way to be effective at 300 yds with open sights since they have the rifle that can do it.
Click to expand...
I plan on being effective to 300 yards with open sights if I draw a muzzleloader tag. I don't plan on shooting a deer at 300 yards (just like when I could use a scope) but if I have a buck at 275 yards that getting closer to isn't a great option it would be nice to have to confidence to make the shot.
 
roadrunner said:
As unpopular as it is, decreasing the amount of outfitters out there would help decrease success rates as well. A lot of guides and outfitters have gotten really good at killing stuff, with or without longrange rifles.
Click to expand...
I would be ok with no outfitters allowed on public land. The 10% guaranteed tags is also something that should be done away with.
 
JB1975 said:
Making a primitive weapon primitive. Interesting.
Click to expand...
Video on YouTube popped up of a NM muzzy hunt from this year, I was bored so I watched about 5 min… dude took a 500 yard shot on a bull… missed, but then killed one at 450, definitely a weapon you should be hunting with during the rut, super primitive
 
roadrunner said:
"Loren Patterson, president of the New Mexico Cattle Growers’ Association, told commissioners that his organization would like to see more elk harvested in the state. He said cattle operators are seeing their permits reduced because of loss of forage to elk."

So, upset they're seeing USFS/BLM grazing permits reduced because elk are eating natural graze on heritage and public land??? ?
Click to expand...
i bet usfs and blm will do a awesome job keeping up water for the game animals haha get real
 
Go look around in some of the units that are muzzleloader and archery only and tell me that they are what they used to be 5-10 years ago. Look at 13 and 17. Quality way down. You go out on public land and there are 5-10 spotters for hunters that are using outfitters. Guys with radios calling hunters to come quick! It’s a circus out there and quality and quantity have gone way down. I don’t know if pulling scopes would solve that, but limiting what outfitters can and can’t do would help. Hell, we’ve got outfitters flying during hunts and using drones as scouting devices. **** show to say the least!
 
OCHO said:
That was my biggest issue. Once they take one thing from you it doesn’t stop. And if you haven’t figured it out not many political types have yours/our best interest hand.

I was dumbfounded the amount of hunters that were for this. And the reasons why. But that’s modern time and it’s very unfortunate.
Click to expand...
This right here! The G&F could have rotated hunts like AZ (UNIT8) every other year there is a muzzleloader option. Also in the final meeting the dept referenced harvest data from 1998 thru 2008 , but if my memory is correct , the MANDATORY HARVEST REPORTS were not into effect until 2011 or 2012. Before the harvest report was voluntary . So how accurate was the harvest data during these meetings and the public had no way of challenging it. The current game commission does not have a single sportsman on it other then the young man from northern NM who absolutely works for his area.
 
STOMPER said:
I guide. Im against muzzy scope bans and against the ban of electronics on bows.

The best thing for elk herds is lower wound rates.

Most of my clients wound two elk with a bow before they “might” kill. Muzzy wound rate is even higher. My clients who use more primitive means wound more. The guys with better technology wound far less.

Now lets divert and say i should walk away from my clients after the first wound and forget i could be sued.

But the facts are facts. Better technology flat out means less wounded and less die. Thats a simple fact. One i cannot ignore. And since my day job is a design engineer for guidance systems and such i would dare say my motto is data drives. Not that it will carry weight.

But there are my two cents
Click to expand...
You shouldn’t walk away from your clients after their first wounded animal, but you certainly should have a policy that if you draw blood, you are done hunting regardless of recovery written into the contract that your client signs
 
andrew12gauge said:
You shouldn’t walk away from your clients after their first wounded animal, but you certainly should have a policy that if you draw blood, you are done hunting regardless of recovery written into the contract that your client signs
Click to expand...
Agree 100%. Too many guided hunters wound and keep hunting. There should be a rule, that all hunters regardless of being guided or not must stop hunting once an animal is wounded. But like the many other rules that aren't followed, this will just add to that list.

I'm personally for the change. Muzzle loaders are no longer primitive weapons, especially when animals are being killed at over 500+ yards. This should allow for quality of animals to increase, odds for muzzle hunts to increase, but I feel that rifle odds will significantly decrease to even worse than they already are.
 
Mike0426 said:
Agree 100%. Too many guided hunters wound and keep hunting. There should be a rule, that all hunters regardless of being guided or not must stop hunting once an animal is wounded. But like the many other rules that aren't followed, this will just add to that list.

I'm personally for the change. Muzzle loaders are no longer primitive weapons, especially when animals are being killed at over 500+ yards. This should allow for quality of animals to increase, odds for muzzle hunts to increase, but I feel that rifle odds will significantly decrease to even worse than they already are.
Click to expand...

Except not all wounded animals die. Unless you hit something important, a fair amount survive. A carcass tag is just that, a tag to put on a carcass. Not to draw blood...
 
roadrunner said:
Except not all wounded animals die. Unless you hit something important, a fair amount survive. A carcass tag is just that, a tag to put on a carcass. Not to draw blood...
Click to expand...
Sorry but when a guide says his clients wound 2 bulls for every one they kill, those clients need to learn to shoot better, and a clause saying that drawing blood means your hunt is done would incentivize those guys to be better prepared
 
andrew12gauge said:
Sorry but when a guide says his clients wound 2 bulls for every one they kill, those clients need to learn to shoot better, and a clause saying that drawing blood means your hunt is done would incentivize those guys to be better prepared
Click to expand...

That's up to the outfitter, but go ahead and reach out to the NM Association of Guides and Outfitters and tell they need to put that clause into their contracts, and they'd better do it because you say so.

Good luck!
 
I haven't read this whole tread because its now three pages long but I will simply say this...

State wildlife agencies across the west are figuring out that if they can make hunts harder >>> they can limit success rates >>> in order to sell more tags >>> in order to create more revenue.

It's as simple as that.
 
How do we as hunters stop the government from taking away our hunting methods without any public input or discussion. I wish the state would have provided some documentation or science for the decision. I am so discussed with this. I am praying this isn’t the beginning of what is coming. ? I feel a lawsuit on behalf of the hunting community needs to happen.
 
I take advantage of everything that’s legal. But these hunts were designed for close range, not single shot rifles. Might as well let me use my 45/70 Shilo Sharps.
For as much as everyone wants better quality and more opportunity something (many things) must be done.
 
ElkHunterNM said:
How do we as hunters stop the government from taking away our hunting methods without any public input or discussion. I wish the state would have provided some documentation or science for the decision. I am so discussed with this. I am praying this isn’t the beginning of what is coming. ? I feel a lawsuit on behalf of the hunting community needs to happen.
Click to expand...

For starters, hunting is not a State Constitutional right in NM. Game Commission can basically do whatever they want at the discretion of the governor that appoints them.
 
I understand. Doesn’t mean I have to like it or take it dry without saying or doing something. It makes me feel like a subject not a citizen.
 
There was a 3-4 months comment period. Everyone had ample amount of time to comment a dozen times. I think they said they got a few hundred comments. So a little late to complain about input. Wether they listen is another story.

This had nothing to do with revenue. I had to do with all the comments on the lack of quality bulls the last 3-4 years, negitive feed back on LR muzzy’s, and bul to cow ratios decreasing in muzzy units. Nothing to do with $
 
ElkHunterNM said:
Too many Kyles ??‍♂️. My last post on this.
Click to expand...
Too many Karen’s!
If you don’t like the changes then don’t apply for the Muzzleloader hunts anymore. Apply for a rifle hunt.
Personally I like the change to the hunts. There were plenty of outfitters/guides booking clients and having them use their custom LR muzzleloader when the clients had no business shooting that far or most hadn’t ever even fired the muzzleloader before.
 
Cahunter805 said:
Too many Karen’s!
If you don’t like the changes then don’t apply for the Muzzleloader hunts anymore. Apply for a rifle hunt.
Personally I like the change to the hunts. There were plenty of outfitters/guides booking clients and having them use their custom LR muzzleloader when the clients had no business shooting that far or most hadn’t ever even fired the muzzleloader before.
Click to expand...
I think you’re correct! I also think this will continue. I live between two units that are muzzleloader and archery elk units only. I have already heard talk from outfitters about getting their muzzleloaders setup with long range peep sights so their clients can use their guns and still shoot long range. It is what it is. Will more game survive? Maybe. Will draw odds increase? Probably not. I did notice that in some units for some species tag numbers went up, even though the claim of no scopes was to decrease success rates. I also noticed that some units that have had muzzleloader hunts before, don’t have a muzzloader season anymore. It’s a money grab from the department plain and simple.
 
nmarchr said:
I think you’re correct! I also think this will continue. I live between two units that are muzzleloader and archery elk units only. I have already heard talk from outfitters about getting their muzzleloaders setup with long range peep sights so their clients can use their guns and still shoot long range. It is what it is. Will more game survive? Maybe. Will draw odds increase? Probably not. I did notice that in some units for some species tag numbers went up, even though the claim of no scopes was to decrease success rates. I also noticed that some units that have had muzzleloader hunts before, don’t have a muzzloader season anymore. It’s a money grab from the department plain and simple.
Click to expand...

But with an open sight peep, the range is only as far as their client's eyesight is.
 
nmarchr said:
I think you’re correct! I also think this will continue. I live between two units that are muzzleloader and archery elk units only. I have already heard talk from outfitters about getting their muzzleloaders setup with long range peep sights so their clients can use their guns and still shoot long range. It is what it is. Will more game survive? Maybe. Will draw odds increase? Probably not. I did notice that in some units for some species tag numbers went up, even though the claim of no scopes was to decrease success rates. I also noticed that some units that have had muzzleloader hunts before, don’t have a muzzloader season anymore. It’s a money grab from the department plain and simple.
Click to expand...
So how doe the Department make more money by eliminating scopes.
 
tracker12 said:
Have they announced they are giving more tags in combination with the scope ban. Im all for that.
Click to expand...
Without giving away what hunts I apply for I’ll try to explain. There are 30 more tags in the deer unit I apply for this coming year and 50 more elk tags. Just go back and compare last years hunts to this years hunts in the proclamation.
 

Similar threads

deerslayer64d
Phone scopes and similar products
Replies
5
Views
263
deerslayer64d
deerslayer64d
H
Significant restrictions are being proposed in 2024 Novembers RAC's
5 6 7
Replies
652
Views
7k
Bux n Dux
Bux n Dux
elkantlers
Wyoming G&F aircraft operation
Replies
0
Views
175
elkantlers
elkantlers

Member Gallery Photos and Videos!

IMG_7729.jpeg
San Carlos Beast
IMG_2154.JPG
20200131_221719-1.jpg
114859F5-4CA4-4F3E-8EAE-C581C92F58E6.jpeg
D0887BC0-3563-40A2-AF30-B38C4374D3B7.jpeg
IMG_0316.jpeg
IMG_0329.jpeg
Sweet Big Bull Score
88404.jpeg
Screenshot_20231104_211732_Gallery.jpg
IMG_4238.JPG

New Mexico Guides & Outfitters

H & A Outfitters

Private and public land hunts since 1992 for elk, mule deer, sheep, pronghorn, black Bear & lion hunts.

505 Outfitters

Public and private land big game hunts. Rifle, muzzleloader and archery hunts available. Free Draw Application Service!

Sierra Blanca Outfitters

Offering a wide array of hunt opportunities and putting clients in prime position to bag a trophy.

Urge 2 Hunt

Hunts in New Mexico on private ranches and remote public land in the top units. Elk vouchers available.

Mangas Outfitters

Landowner tags available! Hunt big bulls and bucks. Any season and multiple hunt units to choose from.

Back
Top Bottom