No scopes on muzzleloaders

There isn’t a single one of you that doesn’t use modern technology to help increase your odds of success on a hunt whether it be binos, trucks, atv’s, clothing, cell phones, radios, onx, gps, center fire rifles, compound bows, bow sights, carbon arrows, broadheads, inline muzzleloader’s and the list goes on. This is a question about scoped muzzleloaders.
If you don’t use any of these “modern tools” and still get it done, my hats off to you. I bet the list is short
 
Bigfoot 1 said:
Maybe we could go back to just using a rock or a spear.
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Nah, drive the herd off a cliff or caprock...no weapons is the most primitive (also least precise but who cares!)...better yet just eat roadkill and charge all drivers for hunting licenses...

But in all seriousness...selective species setups could be a thing, or just expand true primitive units
 
Yeah todays muzzleloaders are are just single shot rifles. They are a big reason quality has declined in the muzzleloader elk units. Shooting them cross canyon at 500 yards in their wintering range. There is only so many big bulls out there. I’m kind of torn on it, I like the technology of new muzzys but it comes at a cost. In the long run it’s probably best or just get rid of muzzleloader seasons and make them rifle
 
NM loosing trapping, OR loosing hounds for lion, CA loosing trapping, hounds for bear, bobcat hunting, lion hunting etc, etc. This should be getting hunters to join together, but instead every state is getting more greedy and pushing NR out. Divide and conquer. We are doing the anti hunting groups work for them.
 
I hope they do not do away with scopes on smoke poles....But I guess it may happen, this game commission is a clown show. Go watch the ending to the commission meeting from this past week , commissioners hardly even respect each other , one commissioner got up and walked out ..One doesn't even live in NM , how's that even possible ???So in reality the land scape of hunting here in NM could drastically change..
 
Looserowel505 said:
I hope they do not do away with scopes on smoke poles....But I guess it may happen, this game commission is a clown show. Go watch the ending to the commission meeting from this past week , commissioners hardly even respect each other , one commissioner got up and walked out ..One doesn't even live in NM , how's that even possible ???So in reality the land scape of hunting here in NM could drastically change..
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All things clueless are possible under the direction of MLG.
 
Looserowel505 said:
I hope they do not do away with scopes on smoke poles....But I guess it may happen, this game commission is a clown show. Go watch the ending to the commission meeting from this past week , commissioners hardly even respect each other , one commissioner got up and walked out ..One doesn't even live in NM , how's that even possible ???So in reality the land scape of hunting here in NM could drastically change..
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I watched the meeting live. It was pretty smooth till the end when Bighorn sheep drawing process was the topic, then it became a mess for sure. The commissioner that walked out was already out the door because she was late for something else, it wasn't like a storm out protest. But still, point taken.
 
5YCHunter , yes but a commission meeting is set , and all appointed should be there with no time limits until the business at hand is complete. Stuart seems to be the sharpest person in the room but is at the commissions table having to rely on their decision which seems like not the best at that meeting.
 
That commission meeting was unbelievable to see how little those commissioners know what they are doing. They had to explain what once in a life time meant to the chair WTF??? They had to explain how the draws works to the new commissioner, and they other lady thinks you can pop off scopes put them in your pocket and slap them back on with no issues. And those people make decisions about our hunts, unreal!!!
 
Looserowel505 said:
5YCHunter , yes but a commission meeting is set , and all appointed should be there with no time limits until the business at hand is complete. Stuart seems to be the sharpest person in the room but is at the commissions table having to rely on their decision which seems like not the best at that meeting.
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Totally agree with you! I just wanted to provide some context. :)
 
Please no point system! I'd be ok with having more primitive muzzleloader hunts. Not doing away with scopes on regular hunts. But, wouldn't it be cool to see some primitive hunts in big time units? I drew the 33 primitive years and years ago. It was a fun hunt! But, I have muzzleloader or archery hunted my entire life. So, what is fun to me may not be to everyone. I understand some thoughts on removing scopes from the equation. Either that or cut the tags. As the harvest rates are inflated from what they used to be with muzzeloaders being basically single shot rifles now.
 
This Louisiana resident is torn on the subject of eliminating scopes on Muzzle Loaders. I hunt with a recurve bow by choice. I have killed a decent 5X5 mule deer in NM using a peep-sighted side lock. It was a primitive muzzy tag limited to side-locks, round balls, or conical bullets. I purchased this Lyman Deerstalker in the 90's when it was still illegal to hunt with an inline. New Mexico does allow scoped inline rifles (and sabot loads) in all other muzzle loader seasons. Was intrigued by the simplistic nature of the .54 cal. Lyman rifle. Have killed several whitetails with it too.

Have since picked up a inline at an RMEF banquet raffle. In 2005 I got a Muzzy cow tag for Colorado. I took a cow on the last day of the hunt. The shot with the Knight Bighorn was 45 yards with Iron sights and a power belt load as per the regulations. I loaded the rifle on a Friday, (uncapped each night), and shot my cow the following Friday. Can't do that with my side lock. At the range equipped with a scope, the rifle grouped well with sabots. My eye sight has since declined a good bit. I can still acquire and shoot well with a scope, the real issue is the use of iron sights. To date, my longest shot attempt has been well under 200 yards. Most kills (all but one) have been at woods ranges under 90 yards. The Louisiana F&G has since decided that a 45-70 and even a .35 Whelen crack-barrel is now a primitive weapon? How is a scoped single shot .35 cal. centerfire considered primitive? They sold a lot of crack-barrel rifles since the rule change.

I'm in the point game (12) in Utah. I would like the option to use a scope when I finally draw. Have no plans to become a long range muzzy assassin'. I will hunt with my Knight Bighorn with the same 3X9 scope. My shots will be limited by that equipment to a degree I can live with. If your F&G regulations change I will follow them. Just feel like I can do a better job, make a cleaner kill while using a scope.

LaGriz
 
The scope thing isn’t a “take away” or “ fight amounts ourselves” thing. It’s either you manage as a rifle hunt and cut tags (makes drawing harder) or you make hunting harder with lower success- no scopes. If we want more and bigger bulls like 15 yrs ago something has to change.
 
Unfortunately scopes won’t change bigger bulls. IMO you’re down the wrong hole if you’re looking for bigger bulls. Cutting elk tags in all seasons will allow the older aged bulls you’re wanting! But no one wants that. We could do like AZ, then you have trophy bulls but will need 14-16 points/years as a resident to draw a bigger bull unit. I’d rather have a one shot, long range Muzzleloader with all the bells and whistles and hunt more often. Than limit my set up.
 
Muleman said:
The scope thing isn’t a “take away” or “ fight amounts ourselves” thing. It’s either you manage as a rifle hunt and cut tags (makes drawing harder) or you make hunting harder with lower success- no scopes. If we want more and bigger bulls like 15 yrs ago something has to change.
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The only thing that would give us better quality is lower quantity! Of tags issued! To us and landowners!
 
BGnight said:
Seems totally logical and is the intent of why there's even a muzzleloader season to begin with. I never understood states that allowed scopes.
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I think the game has changed more in the past 2 - 3 years than previously. Prior, yes scopes definitely give you an advantage, but we weren't seeing these extreme long distance shooting like we are now. I don't recall the custom type muzzleloaders with the dial in scopes where folks are taking game out to 600 yards with accuracy. Personally, I would like to see a compromise where scopes can't be variable and more than like 3X. I think that would limit the long distance shooting while still not eliminating people who have a hard time seeing open sights. Probably not a realistic proposal because it would be hard to enforce.
 
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JB1975 said:
Making a primitive weapon primitive. Interesting.
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Where do you stop? Recurves only? Instinctive shooting only? Many would argue a person with a modern compound with a slider, range finder etc. is far from primitive.
 
SLM said:
Where do you stop? Recurves only? Instinctive shooting only? Many would argue a person with a modern compound with a slider, range finder etc. is far from primitive.
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Where do you stop? The answer is now before it gets out of hand.
 
TRC said:
I think we should all go back to wooden spears with flint tip points!! LOL!!

When we all start fighting against ourselves is when we loose more than just a scope on a smoke pole!
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It’s to late. You can’t respond to most of these threads without getting your opinion attacked and massacred. You can only turn the other cheek so many times before you strike back. ?
 
All right handed shooters should have to shoot left handed.
and left handed shooters should have to shoot right handed.
The rest of need to shoot with your eyes closed.
I think that I just hit the nail on the head on how to grow more herds of deer. LOL
 
roadrunner said:
The removal of scopes on muzzleloaders will result in the muzzy antelope tag for unit 52 to go to a zero success rate...
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I’ve been hunting 52 for decades and have seen antelope at over 10’300 feet in elevation. Those antelope in 52 always seem to be on the run. I would imagine that’s not an easy hunt with any “technology”.
 
Tough question!! I have only hunted in Nevada and Colorado in which ML's are open sight only. Year after year I listen to hunters talk about the deer they wounded with open sights and just kept on going until they finally got one on the ground. I am sure a lot of those shots should not have been taken but what's the lesser of two evils? Keep busting em until ya get one down or a long range shot with a scoped ML? I suppose you could miss with a long range, scoped ML as well. I am kind of stuck on the fence with this one however, I pretty much these days have 0 tolerance for anything taken away from us hunters. Too many groups out there doing anything and everything they can to take away our hunting and at the same time we are voluntarily giving things away? Once again, I am kind of stuck on this one and have thought about it quite a bit. If taking away ML scopes is proven to better our herds here in the west then I sure would be all for it.
 
joevegas said:
Tough question!! I have only hunted in Nevada and Colorado in which ML's are open sight only. Year after year I listen to hunters talk about the deer they wounded with open sights and just kept on going until they finally got one on the ground. I am sure a lot of those shots should not have been taken but what's the lesser of two evils? Keep busting em until ya get one down or a long range shot with a scoped ML? I suppose you could miss with a long range, scoped ML as well. I am kind of stuck on the fence with this one however, I pretty much these days have 0 tolerance for anything taken away from us hunters. Too many groups out there doing anything and everything they can to take away our hunting and at the same time we are voluntarily giving things away? Once again, I am kind of stuck on this one and have thought about it quite a bit. If taking away ML scopes is proven to better our herds here in the west then I sure would be all for it.
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If helping our herds was a priority, the dingbats "in charge" would not have taken trapping away...
 
I think muzzloader hunts should always be without scopes. I've killed everything from antelope to moose with an open sighted muzzleloader. Many dozens of trophy animals. It's not that hard to do. Just get within 100 yards and wait for a killing shot. It's still a hundred times easier than bowhunting.

Sure scopes can greatly increase accuracy at long range but then what's the point of using a muzzleloader?

I've noticed that muzzloader seasons that don't allow scopes generally have much better draw odds than those that do. Personally I like to draw and go hunting so I like states that don't allow scopes.
 
roadrunner said:
Dam Utahns...ban this, ban that. AZ sparked the fire and UT has fanned the flames into a wildfire of banning.

Isn't it enough already that NM lost trapping for predator control due to misguided popular bias?
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On the flip side.

Somehow Utah forgets it has primitive weapons, and just makes it open to all.
 
To me this is all background noise ,and just something else to argue about.
Establish the rules and as a hunter trying to get tags you make the adjustments. Surprising how many people cant do that.
I personally would be fine with a CO type ML. Mine weighs a little over 6 lbs compared to my NM ML that is probably 10-11 lbs.
I adjust my expectations of a hunt to the weapon, area and season.
Keep your expectations reasonable and enjoy your hunt.
 
i wouldn’t be against i power limit on scope for Muzz, I think true trophy potential has gone down for a multitude of reasons. Almost every elk in the woods has been seen on a trail cam….. outfitters mass 2,3,4,5+ guides to keep tabs on animals….. we’ve got radios calling out positions…..we have muzzy’s good to 500-600. Rifles out to 1000-1200…. People will bring up archery it’s still stick and string and need to ethically be under 70 yards in my honest opinion I do practice further but conditions would have to be perfect as I have killed a bull further but not proud of it the more I think of it…. We’ve totally stacked the cards against the animals to grow to be 8-12 years old. How about we move muzzy and rifle season back a week and then they can keep their crazy long shooting rifles? Wouldn’t help much but it possibly might a little…. I’d be for a limiting a muzzy since ultimately it is a primitive weapon. But no matter what the state decides people are going to find something to complain about. But nobody can argue we’ve definitely taken away most advantages the animal has…. I agree with Paul all noise and something to get people fired up about.
 
roadrunner said:
The removal of scopes on muzzleloaders will result in the muzzy antelope tag for unit 52 to go to a zero success rate...
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Before scopes, back in the 90's, I was 1 for 3, should have been 2 for 3. They were way less skittish, you could usually get to about 150 yards on a stalk. That all changed after scopes and people started lobbing bullets at them 400+ yards. Draw odds were also about 50% before scopes, of course everything has changed.
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5yearcoueshunter said:
Game commission meeting today had a proposal of not allowing scopes on muzzleloaders hunts anymore. Thoughts?
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I've hunted ML both scope less, and with scopes. I prefer the scopes. To me it is a matter of aiming too high, or too low in low light with open sights. I agree its a prayer to make a good shot on an animal at more than a hundred yards with open sights. I started hunting with a muzzle loader in the 80's before inlines and scopes evolved, I'm for anything that helps me put what I shoot at in the truck.
 
I shoot my arrowhead custom muzzleloader better than I shoot my 6.5 Creedmore. Allow scopes just get rid of muzzleloader hunts as they are just rifles. ?
 
tallpine13 said:
i wouldn’t be against i power limit on scope for Muzz, I think true trophy potential has gone down for a multitude of reasons. Almost every elk in the woods has been seen on a trail cam….. outfitters mass 2,3,4,5+ guides to keep tabs on animals….. we’ve got radios calling out positions…..we have muzzy’s good to 500-600. Rifles out to 1000-1200…. People will bring up archery it’s still stick and string and need to ethically be under 70 yards in my honest opinion I do practice further but conditions would have to be perfect as I have killed a bull further but not proud of it the more I think of it…. We’ve totally stacked the cards against the animals to grow to be 8-12 years old. How about we move muzzy and rifle season back a week and then they can keep their crazy long shooting rifles? Wouldn’t help much but it possibly might a little…. I’d be for a limiting a muzzy since ultimately it is a primitive weapon. But no matter what the state decides people are going to find something to complain about. But nobody can argue we’ve definitely taken away most advantages the animal has…. I agree with Paul all noise and something to get people fired up about.
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I would be disapointed due to having a very long range capable muzz, but I would understand the reason behind the change. Being a non-res now, I like having every advantage I can have to help me be successful bc my tags are now few and far between. Being a NR F****** blows.
 
Without my muzz, neither the bull in my avatar or my wife’s only bull would’ve been killed. Both were 400+ with little time to waste. That was a tough hunt even with a long range muzz.
 
I understand how some people feel about their scoped Muzzy. But a primitive weapon hunt should be primitive/short range. I too have Muzzy with scopes and side locks, and use whatever is allowed for my advantage. But things need to change. Saying that, I think a 1.25 power scope for aging eyes that can’t use open sights would be great.
 
I have a muzzle loader but I’ve never hunted during a muzzle loading season. I understand the need for conservation and am worried about the deer especially where I hunt, they have been decimated by what I believe to be predators and drought more than hunters. It’s a slippery slope for me, I’m not one for bans or mandates because once they take an inch they will eventually take a mile. What’s next after muzzy scopes? Variable scopes? Hunter orange mandatory, who knows what else. Remember when they mandated a 4 point buck deer? I wonder how many young deer were left dead in the field because somebody shot a forked horn only to later realize it wasn’t forked on both sides….
 
Bigfoot 1 said:
I have a muzzle loader but I’ve never hunted during a muzzle loading season. I understand the need for conservation and am worried about the deer especially where I hunt, they have been decimated by what I believe to be predators and drought more than hunters. It’s a slippery slope for me, I’m not one for bans or mandates because once they take an inch they will eventually take a mile. What’s next after muzzy scopes? Variable scopes? Hunter orange mandatory, who knows what else. Remember when they mandated a 4 point buck deer? I wonder how many young deer were left dead in the field because somebody shot a forked horn only to later realize it wasn’t forked on both sides….
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Hopefully requiring hunters safety should be mandatory. I have ran into far more a$$ clowns in NM than everywhere else combined. I ran into a guy who was hunting turkey while I was scouting them last March. He told me he was shooting them out of the trees. He was using an assault rifle. He told me he had a license and I shook my head and showed him that it was his annual hunting and fishing license lol. The woods in NM scarier than anywhere.
 
LIK2HNT said:
I understand how some people feel about their scoped Muzzy. But a primitive weapon hunt should be primitive/short range. I too have Muzzy with scopes and side locks, and use whatever is allowed for my advantage. But things need to change. Saying that, I think a 1.25 power scope for aging eyes that can’t use open sights would be great.
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Primitive should = caplock open sites, no inline or optic
 
How about a draw where you have a Muzzy hunt without scopes and one few weeks later with scopes. The Muzzy guys would have to pick one or the other.
Seem like it would work. It just maybe it would spread out the amount of hunters also.
 
Gator said:
How about a draw where you have a Muzzy hunt without scopes and one few weeks later with scopes. The Muzzy guys would have to pick one or the other.
Seem like it would work. It just maybe it would spread out the amount of hunters also.
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I like the way Wyoming does it. One area, one season with different dates for rifle or bow. Just can the stupid controversy over muzzleloaders.
 
BeDawg said:
Hopefully requiring hunters safety should be mandatory. I have ran into far more a$$ clowns in NM than everywhere else combined. I ran into a guy who was hunting turkey while I was scouting them last March. He told me he was shooting them out of the trees. He was using an assault rifle. He told me he had a license and I shook my head and showed him that it was his annual hunting and fishing license lol. The woods in NM scarier than anywhere.
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Well, we do have them here. I get so far back when hunting that I don’t run into those types, they don’t really like to put in the work. Hunters safety is on the computer and would be just as easy for them to get as their drivers license was.
 
JRABQ said:
Before scopes, back in the 90's, I was 1 for 3, should have been 2 for 3. They were way less skittish, you could usually get to about 150 yards on a stalk. That all changed after scopes and people started lobbing bullets at them 400+ yards. Draw odds were also about 50% before scopes, of course everything has changed.
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Nice buck!
 
AHHHHHHH Bullshyt!! Most of us on this sight have no dang clue about primitive hunting. If it weren't for technology-we would not even be able to have this conversation. I am 54 and still can't figure out where I belong in all of this mess. But this has divided all of us and that's exactly what was hoped for by people that don't want us to hunt or have guns anymore. The word, "primitive" might as well be taken out of our hunting dictionary as it's a thing of the past and has been for a long time. Now days it's game cams, long range ML's that are killing off all of our big game animals? Just stay divided and see what happens!! How far are we really willing to go? -Line up on horses and run em all off a cliff into the bottom of a canyon? Keep jacking around and they will eventually win!!
 
People are stupid, and just like to argue about anything. Wildlife Dept biologists aren't stupid, and have a pretty decent idea of what people want, and what the resource will handle. Tags are generally set and based on success ratios. A muzzleloader is a single shot rifle, loaded from the muzzle. If you want a primitive hunt, limit it to patched round ball, loose powder, and open sights. Let people decide which to apply for. Pretty simple.
 
100% archery - the use of cams systems was first documented around 932 AD by the Sioux. Expandable broadheads were not commonly used until about 250 years later. We do need to get rid of:

ATV-UTV
Radios
Repeating arms
Horse trailers
Waterproof tents
Comfortable hiking boots
Baseball style hats (racoon or beaver only)
Binoculars and spotting scopes
 
Iowan said:
100% archery - the use of cams systems was first documented around 932 AD by the Sioux. Expandable broadheads were not commonly used until about 250 years later. We do need to get rid of:

ATV-UTV
Radios
Repeating arms
Horse trailers
Waterproof tents
Comfortable hiking boots
Baseball style hats (racoon or beaver only)
Binoculars and spotting scopes
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You forgot anything camo!! LOL
 
Iowan said:
100% archery - the use of cams systems was first documented around 932 AD by the Sioux. Expandable broadheads were not commonly used until about 250 years later. We do need to get rid of:

ATV-UTV
Radios
Repeating arms
Horse trailers
Waterproof tents
Comfortable hiking boots
Baseball style hats (racoon or beaver only)
Binoculars and spotting scopes
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We should go back to loin cloths and war paint also.
 
5yearcoueshunter said:
Game commission meeting today had a proposal of not allowing scopes on muzzleloaders hunts anymore. Thoughts?
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I think its crap. Make it your choice; you want open sights - go for it. You want a scope - go for it. Don't need THIS regulation. Want to see more wounded animals? Here we go! Why not allow the technology if it will increase success rate and ethical harvests????
 
In PA, our muzzleloader buck deer season is limited to flintlock only, loose powder, patched round ball 45 cal or bigger and open sights. This season runs after Christmas for 2 weeks and it typically snows a lot. Just getting your weapon to go off is a celebration.

We do have an antlerless season in October that anything goes.
 
74Superlead said:
I think its crap. Make it your choice; you want open sights - go for it. You want a scope - go for it. Don't need THIS regulation. Want to see more wounded animals? Here we go! Why not allow the technology if it will increase success rate and ethical harvests????
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I say they push the season back a week at least.
 
74Superlead said:
I think its crap. Make it your choice; you want open sights - go for it. You want a scope - go for it. Don't need THIS regulation. Want to see more wounded animals? Here we go! Why not allow the technology if it will increase success rate and ethical harvests????
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Less technology doesn’t mean there will be more wounded animals. Plenty of people wounding animals at long range.
 
BeDawg said:
Less technology doesn’t mean there will be more wounded animals. Plenty of people wounding animals at long range.
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BINGO! Just about Everybody hunting with a rifle have these 500+ yard shot stories they kill animals at. We never here a 500 guy say he missed or wounded an animal, lost the blood trail or even said he didn’t go check because it’s just too far across canyon up and down…..
 
Bigfoot 1 said:
BINGO! Just about Everybody hunting with a rifle have these 500+ yard shot stories they kill animals at. We never here a 500 guy say he missed or wounded an animal, lost the blood trail or even said he didn’t go check because it’s just too far across canyon up and down…..
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While I’ll agree that happens and will happen, like I’ve said earlier, those are the type of hunters we need to weed out. They give us a bad name. We owe to every animal to give it the due diligence to ethically kill them. And if something happens where the animal is wounded, we owe it everything we have to retrieve it. I’m tired of these “hunters”, who think they don’t need to practice, or can shoot way beyond their ethical range, just because they hit a target there once in the range.
 
mossback50cal said:
While I’ll agree that happens and will happen, like I’ve said earlier, those are the type of hunters we need to weed out. They give us a bad name. We owe to every animal to give it the due diligence to ethically kill them. And if something happens where the animal is wounded, we owe it everything we have to retrieve it. I’m tired of these “hunters”, who think they don’t need to practice, or can shoot way beyond their ethical range, just because they hit a target there once in the range.
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How do you propose we weed them out?
 
I'll never understand why anyone would lobby to restrict our freedom to choose how we hunt. No one is telling you that you have to use a long range muzzleloader, under the current regs you can use whatever muzzleloader you want. Its up to you how you choose to hunt. You hunt your way, I'll hunt mine. Don't take away my freedom to choose because you dont think its fair. Once you start limiting freedoms, it never stops. Soon it will be the rifle hunters, then the archery hunters. Why not outlaw rangefinders? Then all hunters no matter the weapon would be restricted. Would that make everyone happy?
 
passthrough said:
I'll never understand why anyone would lobby to restrict our freedom to choose how we hunt. No one is telling you that you have to use a long range muzzleloader, under the current regs you can use whatever muzzleloader you want. Its up to you how you choose to hunt. You hunt your way, I'll hunt mine. Don't take away my freedom to choose because you dont think its fair. Once you start limiting freedoms, it never stops. Soon it will be the rifle hunters, then the archery hunters. Why not outlaw rangefinders? Then all hunters no matter the weapon would be restricted. Would that make everyone happy?
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You’re not advocating for the freedom to choose any manner in which one hunts are you? I believe our “freedoms” are restricted under current laws. Not saying that’s a bad thing either.
 
passthrough said:
I'll never understand why anyone would lobby to restrict our freedom to choose how we hunt. No one is telling you that you have to use a long range muzzleloader, under the current regs you can use whatever muzzleloader you want. Its up to you how you choose to hunt. You hunt your way, I'll hunt mine. Don't take away my freedom to choose because you dont think its fair. Once you start limiting freedoms, it never stops. Soon it will be the rifle hunters, then the archery hunters. Why not outlaw rangefinders? Then all hunters no matter the weapon would be restricted. Would that make everyone happy?
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It's already happened with trapping. NM does not have a state Constitutional Right to hunt. It would be way too easy to dismantle what we currently have...
 
The scope or no scope issue on muzzle loaders has nothing to do with freedom. All G&F said is the current muzzleloader hunts have success rates like rifle hunts and at the current license #'s the mature bull harvest is higher and bull to cow ratios are getting lower. This is simply a question of do you want modern muzzleloaders then they are going to have cut tags to get herd quality back to where it use to be. Or restrict the weapons back to "primitive" thus reducing harvest allowing more bulls to survive and accomplish the same thing without reducing tags.

Its just a matter or what management we want, nothing to do with freedoms.
 
Muleman said:
The scope or no scope issue on muzzle loaders has nothing to do with freedom. All G&F said is the current muzzleloader hunts have success rates like rifle hunts and at the current license #'s the mature bull harvest is higher and bull to cow ratios are getting lower. This is simply a question of do you want modern muzzleloaders then they are going to have cut tags to get herd quality back to where it use to be. Or restrict the weapons back to "primitive" thus reducing harvest allowing more bulls to survive and accomplish the same thing without reducing tags.

Its just a matter or what management we want, nothing to do with freedoms.
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Or, is it because people are just better at killing stuff than they were 20 years ago? The information exchange is much higher now than ever before.

When someone draws a muzzy tag for the first time, or draws a unit for the first time, they can glean a lot more information from social media and YouTube about how to hunt the animal or an area. Before the info exchange frenzy, those same people likely had non-successful hunts as far as filling a tag.

Consistent firing muzzy's have also likely had a certain contributing factor. Before, you had only a couple of shots before the inaccuracy was so bad, you might as well shoot blindfolded. Better manufacturing of black powder and bullet design has contributed to a muzzleloading rifle capable of a 300 yd shot probably more than the scope has - although it has helped for sure.

Better solution - move 1/3 of the muzzleloader tags back a few weeks that accommodate scopes (and long range) and keep the other 2/3 earlier that have a no scope requirement.
 
How about changing up the ML and Rifle dates. Archery 1st then Rifle 2nd then ML season last. So using a scoped ML wouldn't be a big deal then since they are batting cleanup.
 
Bigfoot 1 said:
BINGO! Just about Everybody hunting with a rifle have these 500+ yard shot stories they kill animals at. We never here a 500 guy say he missed or wounded an animal, lost the blood trail or even said he didn’t go check because it’s just too far across canyon up and down…..
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Because of keyboard warriors like you that have nothing better to do all day but sit on here and talk. Long range or short range plenty of wounded animals at 30 yards from a bow hunters as well. Self Govern and get a life.
 
Bigfoot 1 said:
How do you propose we weed them out?
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If I knew how, I would propose something. There is no way for us to weed them out, unfortunately, as they are everywhere now. I see videos all the time on youtube of people wounding deer, not finding them and continuing to hunt. Or hitting them in the hoof, trying to take miracle shots. Sadly, most everyone is for the glory now. I wish there was a way we could weed them out.
 
mossback50cal said:
If I knew how, I would propose something. There is no way for us to weed them out, unfortunately, as they are everywhere now. I see videos all the time on youtube of people wounding deer, not finding them and continuing to hunt. Or hitting them in the hoof, trying to take miracle shots. Sadly, most everyone is for the glory now. I wish there was a way we could weed them out.
Click to expand...

Point restrictions!

4 point or smaller on bull elk and 3 point or smaller for muleys! All of a sudden making that 428 yd shot on the bull or buck doesn't matter anymore.
 
I don’t see the problem being proficient with any weapon. It’s our responsibility as sportsmen to know limitations and what’s a ethical shot. If we wanna hunt with a blow gun that’s our choice. Everybody’s always worried about what the next guy is doing. As a hunter my concern is filling my tag however I legally choose and hoping I even get the chance to hunt. If this passes draw odd will be even worse. I can only imagine what will fallow. What’s to say that these long range muzzleloaders are contributing to high success rates? How many of you guys own one? I’m not spending 5-10k on one to use if I possibly draw. It’s not like these smoke poles are finding animals for you. Not to mention Most of the muzzy dates are in a great time frame to harvest a elk. Carful what you wish for fellas. This will for sure be the trickle effect of us loosing more of what we all love.
 
Why in the hell would any one of you hunters propose to ban scopes on muzzleloaders? You guys are comparing apples to oranges. First of all the New Mexico proclamation clearly states "muzzleloader hunt" not "primative weapon. On a primitive hunt, then sure ban the use of scopes, long rang barrels, smokeless powder and primered cases. To include compound bows, crossbows and all new technology used for any advantaged. Which I don't agree with at all! I mean this is all sounding like a bunch of libs crying about our 2nd amendment rights, trying to dictate what we can and can't have ie; saying why do we automatic and semiautomatic weapons? why do we need high capacity magazines? That the 2nd amendment wasn't meant for today's technology. Everyone gets all up in arms when they hear that nonsense right? Times have changed with technology and if it's at our disposal to use than why not? Why bust each other's balls over what one or a few people think on what people are capable of shooting long range and making a clean kill vs short range hunting and still making bad shots and not recovering their animal.
 
Lonewolf22 said:
Why in the hell would any one of you hunters propose to ban scopes on muzzleloaders? You guys are comparing apples to oranges. First of all the New Mexico proclamation clearly states "muzzleloader hunt" not "primative weapon. On a primitive hunt, then sure ban the use of scopes, long rang barrels, smokeless powder and primered cases. To include compound bows, crossbows and all new technology used for any advantaged. Which I don't agree with at all! I mean this is all sounding like a bunch of libs crying about our 2nd amendment rights, trying to dictate what we can and can't have ie; saying why do we automatic and semiautomatic weapons? why do we need high capacity magazines? That the 2nd amendment wasn't meant for today's technology. Everyone gets all up in arms when they hear that nonsense right? Times have changed with technology and if it's at our disposal to use than why not? Why bust each other's balls over what one or a few people think on what people are capable of shooting long range and making a clean kill vs short range hunting and still making bad shots and not recovering their animal.
Click to expand...
Man I couldn't agree more and have stated the same. Just wait and see what happens if we continue to voluntarily give up what we have left. And what we have left - Aint that much.
 

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