nontypical
Long Time Member
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- 4,298
I have those too! Deer,elk, antelope regs since late '80's. Got all the carcass coupons for all my antlers for many years.
Max Deer Points 87 or 102
- Thread starter Zim
- Start date
BuzzH
Long Time Member
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- 6,374
LAST EDITED ON Jun-11-18 AT 06:16PM (MST)[p]Got
>all the carcass coupons for
>all my antlers for many
>years.
I have every license/tag/carcass coupon from every animal I've ever shot...from 1979 to present.
I keep them in quart sized zip-loc bags, can usually fit about 5-6 years worth in a bag.
Typical bag full:
>all the carcass coupons for
>all my antlers for many
>years.
I have every license/tag/carcass coupon from every animal I've ever shot...from 1979 to present.
I keep them in quart sized zip-loc bags, can usually fit about 5-6 years worth in a bag.
Typical bag full:
jm77
Long Time Member
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- 3,509
>JM
>
>That's an awesome collection of regulations!
> Do you keep antelope
>and elk also?
Yes, I have elk and antelope too. I also have moose regs from 1980, but they are depressing. That year Wyoming issued over 1500 moose licenses. This year the number is just over 330.
>
>That's an awesome collection of regulations!
> Do you keep antelope
>and elk also?
Yes, I have elk and antelope too. I also have moose regs from 1980, but they are depressing. That year Wyoming issued over 1500 moose licenses. This year the number is just over 330.
PleaseDear
Long Time Member
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- 10,613
I have my Non-Ressy booklets going back into the 1990's ( for many states)
Glad to see I am not the only hunter hoarder! haha
Robb
Glad to see I am not the only hunter hoarder! haha
Robb
Hunt_the_West
Active Member
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- 367
For most of my childhood this species was referred to as ?Wyoming moose? and to see their drastic decline is depressing.
rocky2track
Active Member
- Messages
- 324
>Yes, I have elk and antelope
>too. I also have moose
>regs from 1980, but they
>are depressing. That year Wyoming
>issued over 1500 moose licenses.
>This year the number is
>just over 330.
That is very depressing. The Jackson Hole/Teton/Gros Ventre herd is not even a shadow of what it use to be. So out of curiosity, since I'm jealous of your stack of regs, what were the deer regs/seasons like for the greys river/Wyoming range areas back in 1979?
>too. I also have moose
>regs from 1980, but they
>are depressing. That year Wyoming
>issued over 1500 moose licenses.
>This year the number is
>just over 330.
That is very depressing. The Jackson Hole/Teton/Gros Ventre herd is not even a shadow of what it use to be. So out of curiosity, since I'm jealous of your stack of regs, what were the deer regs/seasons like for the greys river/Wyoming range areas back in 1979?
jm77
Long Time Member
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- 3,509
>>Yes, I have elk and antelope
>>too. I also have moose
>>regs from 1980, but they
>>are depressing. That year Wyoming
>>issued over 1500 moose licenses.
>>This year the number is
>>just over 330.
>
>That is very depressing. The
>Jackson Hole/Teton/Gros Ventre herd is
>not even a shadow of
>what it use to be.
> So out of curiosity,
>since I'm jealous of your
>stack of regs, what were
>the deer regs/seasons like for
>the greys river/Wyoming range areas
>back in 1979?
Here you go, Wyoming deer regs 1979 Region G&H. Enjoy...
>>too. I also have moose
>>regs from 1980, but they
>>are depressing. That year Wyoming
>>issued over 1500 moose licenses.
>>This year the number is
>>just over 330.
>
>That is very depressing. The
>Jackson Hole/Teton/Gros Ventre herd is
>not even a shadow of
>what it use to be.
> So out of curiosity,
>since I'm jealous of your
>stack of regs, what were
>the deer regs/seasons like for
>the greys river/Wyoming range areas
>back in 1979?
Here you go, Wyoming deer regs 1979 Region G&H. Enjoy...
rocky2track
Active Member
- Messages
- 324
LAST EDITED ON Jun-12-18 AT 09:55PM (MST)[p]>Here you go, Wyoming deer regs
>1979 Region G&H. Enjoy...
Haha....hell yeah JM77! Look at all those late October hunts...lol, and some even later! And you didn't even start hunting around Big Piney until Oct. 15th! We started hunting that back in '83. I finally had enough legs to follow in a few years but didn't get to have a tag of myself until the late 80's(dang 14 yr old restrictions back then). I do remember those 4pt restrictions and G&F ending that practice around the same time frame. Getting to hunt the low country after the heavy snows at the end of October.... Oh how I remember seeing the deer pour out of them drainages, and getting buck fever, and getting the truck stuck, then getting buck fever again...lol. The only problem was time and parents schedules... There were the early guys in September, nothing like it is now, backpacking equipment was heavy.. there were many guys that looked forward to those late October snows to finally go look for a deer...who wanted to climb them steep mountains if you didn't have horses when they'd come down in October. A wonder they didn't shoot the 4 pt genetic out of G & H those years....
>1979 Region G&H. Enjoy...
Haha....hell yeah JM77! Look at all those late October hunts...lol, and some even later! And you didn't even start hunting around Big Piney until Oct. 15th! We started hunting that back in '83. I finally had enough legs to follow in a few years but didn't get to have a tag of myself until the late 80's(dang 14 yr old restrictions back then). I do remember those 4pt restrictions and G&F ending that practice around the same time frame. Getting to hunt the low country after the heavy snows at the end of October.... Oh how I remember seeing the deer pour out of them drainages, and getting buck fever, and getting the truck stuck, then getting buck fever again...lol. The only problem was time and parents schedules... There were the early guys in September, nothing like it is now, backpacking equipment was heavy.. there were many guys that looked forward to those late October snows to finally go look for a deer...who wanted to climb them steep mountains if you didn't have horses when they'd come down in October. A wonder they didn't shoot the 4 pt genetic out of G & H those years....
JM, I would be curious if you or anyone else has any regs from further back...like in the 70's or early 80's? It sure seems like 87 had point restrictions longer than just a couple years? It doesn't seem like the 3 pt trait would take hold in only a couple years does it? I'm not trying to stir the pot but am just curious?
Guy's can argue about this forever! In my experience managing whitetail, all it takes is for the stars to align negative for a few years to introduce bad genetics. Winter kill /point restriction /disease /over harvesting it all plays a role.
Several years ago one old doe had twin 6 points. At 3.5 they were 20" wide 6 points. We knew they needed taken out but this never happened unfortunately. The next summer we had EHD and found mature bucks everywhere dead. Years of managing gone!
The 6 points lived, and become dominate! Now years later we can't harvest enough 6 points, there everywhere. Granted this is only 3000 acres, but you see the point.
Several years ago one old doe had twin 6 points. At 3.5 they were 20" wide 6 points. We knew they needed taken out but this never happened unfortunately. The next summer we had EHD and found mature bucks everywhere dead. Years of managing gone!
The 6 points lived, and become dominate! Now years later we can't harvest enough 6 points, there everywhere. Granted this is only 3000 acres, but you see the point.
jm77
Long Time Member
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- 3,509
>JM, I would be curious if
>you or anyone else has
>any regs from further back...like
>in the 70's or early
>80's? It sure seems
>like 87 had point restrictions
>longer than just a couple
>years? It doesn't
>seem like the 3 pt
>trait would take hold in
>only a couple years does
>it? I'm not trying
>to stir the pot but
>am just curious?
To answer your question above, I have regs staring from 1979 and every year till present, including the early 80's. There are only two years of 4pt restriction. I will say to you, having lived near 87 all my life, your assessment is a little exaggerated.
As far as junior's claim, I'd like to see that degree he has in wildlife genetics. Currently, there is no scientific evidence to prove culling all the big antlered bucks causes lots of smaller antlered ones. Most biologists are concerned enough about APRs that they use them with caution. No one here, as of yet, has mentioned what the doe contributes to antler growth, and new evidence suggests it is way more than what the buck does both genetically and environmentally combined. In the early 90s I watched a big nontypical mule deer when he was in the high 170s and the next year, in the low 190s, breed does in a drainage where he was obviously the dominate buck. The following year he was harvested and scored 225. Since then and to this day, I have never seen a buck that even resembled him save for his brow tines. They were bladed and big. What happened to all those genes he spread?
>you or anyone else has
>any regs from further back...like
>in the 70's or early
>80's? It sure seems
>like 87 had point restrictions
>longer than just a couple
>years? It doesn't
>seem like the 3 pt
>trait would take hold in
>only a couple years does
>it? I'm not trying
>to stir the pot but
>am just curious?
To answer your question above, I have regs staring from 1979 and every year till present, including the early 80's. There are only two years of 4pt restriction. I will say to you, having lived near 87 all my life, your assessment is a little exaggerated.
As far as junior's claim, I'd like to see that degree he has in wildlife genetics. Currently, there is no scientific evidence to prove culling all the big antlered bucks causes lots of smaller antlered ones. Most biologists are concerned enough about APRs that they use them with caution. No one here, as of yet, has mentioned what the doe contributes to antler growth, and new evidence suggests it is way more than what the buck does both genetically and environmentally combined. In the early 90s I watched a big nontypical mule deer when he was in the high 170s and the next year, in the low 190s, breed does in a drainage where he was obviously the dominate buck. The following year he was harvested and scored 225. Since then and to this day, I have never seen a buck that even resembled him save for his brow tines. They were bladed and big. What happened to all those genes he spread?
jm77,
Awesome deer,
I hope the kid with the beard mounted that dude!
I never said I had a degree in genetics? Did I? "In my experience" is what I said. Nothings written in stone here, its all theory and opinion. I did not mean to threaten your little man syndrome or impose I know all about genetics.
Interesting though, point restriction 87/88, High hunter harvest 86 thru 92, then winter kill 92/93.
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/con...itiative/PVHP/PVHP_WORKSHOP_TOPIC20002516.pdf
Awesome deer,
I hope the kid with the beard mounted that dude!
I never said I had a degree in genetics? Did I? "In my experience" is what I said. Nothings written in stone here, its all theory and opinion. I did not mean to threaten your little man syndrome or impose I know all about genetics.
Interesting though, point restriction 87/88, High hunter harvest 86 thru 92, then winter kill 92/93.
https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/con...itiative/PVHP/PVHP_WORKSHOP_TOPIC20002516.pdf
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,509
>Something tells me guy eastman's blue
>chip designation, ZIM's deep thoughts
>on how to dump a
>decades worth of points on
>his rightly entitled permit, or
>the monstermuleys expert deer geneticist
>threads did not lead you
>to that buck.
Something tells you correctly...
>chip designation, ZIM's deep thoughts
>on how to dump a
>decades worth of points on
>his rightly entitled permit, or
>the monstermuleys expert deer geneticist
>threads did not lead you
>to that buck.
Something tells you correctly...
Zeke
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,603
The Henry Mountains of Utah is a prime example of how ARP's decimated the gene-pool.
It was regulated as such for years and years on a general State-wide tag.
Now, sadly, all the big buck genes are gone and we're left with small little 200"+ bucks!
Zeke
#livelikezac
It was regulated as such for years and years on a general State-wide tag.
Now, sadly, all the big buck genes are gone and we're left with small little 200"+ bucks!
Zeke
#livelikezac
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,509
LAST EDITED ON Jun-13-18 AT 04:51PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-13-18 AT 04:24?PM (MST)
>I never said I had a
>degree in genetics? Did I?
>"In my experience" is what
>I said.
>Interesting though, point restriction 87/88, High
>hunter harvest 86 thru 92,
>then winter kill 92/93.
Now we can add 'high hunter harvests followed by winter kill' to 'fictitious long periods of 4 pt APRs', as another reason some people think they see more 3x3 mule deer bucks than they should.
>I never said I had a
>degree in genetics? Did I?
>"In my experience" is what
>I said.
>Interesting though, point restriction 87/88, High
>hunter harvest 86 thru 92,
>then winter kill 92/93.
Now we can add 'high hunter harvests followed by winter kill' to 'fictitious long periods of 4 pt APRs', as another reason some people think they see more 3x3 mule deer bucks than they should.
BuzzH
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 6,374
The one thing I've consistently found, across mule deer country from Arizona to Montana, I see spikes, 2 points, 3 points, 3x2's, 4x3, 4x4, some bucks with stickers, some with in-lines, some with eye guards, some without.
I also strongly agree with JM77 that supposedly "dominate" genetics often times don't pass from bucks to their offspring, or if they do, they aren't expressed by their off-spring. I also strongly agree that the doe and the physical condition of the doe in relation to her fawn, can play a big part of what a buck becomes. This has been verified by some work Monteith presented at a commission meeting earlier this Spring.
Finally, Wyoming has never left an APR on long enough to allow to happen what is being claimed in this thread.
I also strongly agree with JM77 that supposedly "dominate" genetics often times don't pass from bucks to their offspring, or if they do, they aren't expressed by their off-spring. I also strongly agree that the doe and the physical condition of the doe in relation to her fawn, can play a big part of what a buck becomes. This has been verified by some work Monteith presented at a commission meeting earlier this Spring.
Finally, Wyoming has never left an APR on long enough to allow to happen what is being claimed in this thread.
So what several of you are saying is that having a 4 pt or better rule for a couple years likely has 0 impact even if there are likely more 3x's that survive hunting season and breed does? Is there literature somewhere to back this up for muledeer?
It sounds like several of you are totally in support of 4 pt for possibly at least short term? I would be curious why the WG&F has 3 pt or better regs in effect for regions G & H rather than 4 pt+ in 2018? Do you think there was much opposition to 4 pt+ in those units? I would expect there to be more support for 3pt+ than 4 pt+?
What it boils down to is that I've seen a heck of a lot of 3x's in 87 compared to other surrounding units. Does this have anything to do with the 4 pt+ regs that were in place years ago? If what you are saying about does is true, the only other scenario I can come up with is that 3x's were common in 87 even before the antler restrictions. I didn't hunt 87 before that time so I have no idea....all I can say is there are currently a gob of 3x's in unit 87.
It sounds like several of you are totally in support of 4 pt for possibly at least short term? I would be curious why the WG&F has 3 pt or better regs in effect for regions G & H rather than 4 pt+ in 2018? Do you think there was much opposition to 4 pt+ in those units? I would expect there to be more support for 3pt+ than 4 pt+?
What it boils down to is that I've seen a heck of a lot of 3x's in 87 compared to other surrounding units. Does this have anything to do with the 4 pt+ regs that were in place years ago? If what you are saying about does is true, the only other scenario I can come up with is that 3x's were common in 87 even before the antler restrictions. I didn't hunt 87 before that time so I have no idea....all I can say is there are currently a gob of 3x's in unit 87.
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,509
>So what several of you are
>saying is that having a
>4 pt or better rule
>for a couple years likely
>has 0 impact even if
>there are likely more 3x's
>that survive hunting season and
>breed does? Is there
>literature somewhere to back this
>up for muledeer?
>
>It sounds like several of you
>are totally in support of
>4 pt for possibly at
>least short term? I
>would be curious why the
>WG&F has 3 pt or
>better regs in effect for
>regions G & H rather
>than 4 pt+ in 2018?
> Do you think there
>was much opposition to 4
>pt+ in those units?
>I would expect there to
>be more support for 3pt+
>than 4 pt+?
>
>What it boils down to is
>that I've seen a heck
>of a lot of 3x's
>in 87 compared to other
>surrounding units. Does this
>have anything to do with
>the 4 pt+ regs that
>were in place years ago?
> If what you are
>saying about does is true,
>the only other scenario I
>can come up with is
>that 3x's were common in
>87 even before the antler
>restrictions. I didn't hunt
>87 before that time so
>I have no idea....all I
>can say is there are
>currently a gob of 3x's
>in unit 87.
You're the expert on 87 jims, I wish the 1000 residents that applied for it last year listened to you.
>saying is that having a
>4 pt or better rule
>for a couple years likely
>has 0 impact even if
>there are likely more 3x's
>that survive hunting season and
>breed does? Is there
>literature somewhere to back this
>up for muledeer?
>
>It sounds like several of you
>are totally in support of
>4 pt for possibly at
>least short term? I
>would be curious why the
>WG&F has 3 pt or
>better regs in effect for
>regions G & H rather
>than 4 pt+ in 2018?
> Do you think there
>was much opposition to 4
>pt+ in those units?
>I would expect there to
>be more support for 3pt+
>than 4 pt+?
>
>What it boils down to is
>that I've seen a heck
>of a lot of 3x's
>in 87 compared to other
>surrounding units. Does this
>have anything to do with
>the 4 pt+ regs that
>were in place years ago?
> If what you are
>saying about does is true,
>the only other scenario I
>can come up with is
>that 3x's were common in
>87 even before the antler
>restrictions. I didn't hunt
>87 before that time so
>I have no idea....all I
>can say is there are
>currently a gob of 3x's
>in unit 87.
You're the expert on 87 jims, I wish the 1000 residents that applied for it last year listened to you.
If anyone has any data or research that backs up the comment, "dominate" genetics often times don't pass from bucks to their offspring, or if they do, they aren't expressed by their off-spring please post them. I say total hogwash!
The scenario about Secretariat above sounds right on! I wonder why sperm from desirable blood line male horses and bulls bring so much dollar? Anyone that raises trophy high fenced whitetail or elk certainly seek out bucks and bulls with MONSTER racks to breed with does. I have a feeling trophy "game farmers" would look at you like you were totally nuts if you told them that you wanted to sell them 3 x 3 bucks because buck genetics aren't expressed and don't matter! Pretty funny scenario guys that male genetics aren't expressed and don't matter!
JM, I'm sure there are a lot of local Casper guys that would love to hunt 87....one of the few limited deer units that can be driven back and forth to each day from home and has enough public land to keep a guy busy?
The scenario about Secretariat above sounds right on! I wonder why sperm from desirable blood line male horses and bulls bring so much dollar? Anyone that raises trophy high fenced whitetail or elk certainly seek out bucks and bulls with MONSTER racks to breed with does. I have a feeling trophy "game farmers" would look at you like you were totally nuts if you told them that you wanted to sell them 3 x 3 bucks because buck genetics aren't expressed and don't matter! Pretty funny scenario guys that male genetics aren't expressed and don't matter!
JM, I'm sure there are a lot of local Casper guys that would love to hunt 87....one of the few limited deer units that can be driven back and forth to each day from home and has enough public land to keep a guy busy?
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,509
>If anyone has any data or
>research that backs up the
>comment, "dominate" genetics often times
>don't pass from bucks to
>their offspring, or if they
>do, they aren't expressed by
>their off-spring please post them.
> I say total hogwash!
>
>
>The scenario about Secretariat above sounds
>right on! I wonder
>why sperm from desirable blood
>line male horses and bulls
>bring so much dollar?
>Anyone that raises trophy high
>fenced whitetail or elk certainly
>seek out bucks and bulls
>with MONSTER racks to breed
>with does. I have
>a feeling trophy "game farmers"
>would look at you like
>you were totally nuts if
>you told them that you
>wanted to sell them 3
>x 3 bucks because buck
>genetics aren't expressed and don't
>matter! Pretty funny scenario
>guys that male genetics aren't
>expressed and don't matter!
>
>JM, I'm sure there are a
>lot of local Casper guys
>that would love to hunt
>87....one of the few limited
>deer units that can be
>driven back and forth to
>each day from home and
>has enough public land to
>keep a guy busy?
Give it up jims, this all started because you said a 4pt APR was left on 87 for too long and ruined the genetics. You were wrong about that, it was two years and it didn't do a thing and now you are trying to save face by arguing about genetics? I'm not for certain what your hang up is about all the 3xs you think you see in 87, but I can say with certainty, I have spent far more time in 87 than you have, it's my backyard dude and you are wrong.
And that's all I have to say about that...
>research that backs up the
>comment, "dominate" genetics often times
>don't pass from bucks to
>their offspring, or if they
>do, they aren't expressed by
>their off-spring please post them.
> I say total hogwash!
>
>
>The scenario about Secretariat above sounds
>right on! I wonder
>why sperm from desirable blood
>line male horses and bulls
>bring so much dollar?
>Anyone that raises trophy high
>fenced whitetail or elk certainly
>seek out bucks and bulls
>with MONSTER racks to breed
>with does. I have
>a feeling trophy "game farmers"
>would look at you like
>you were totally nuts if
>you told them that you
>wanted to sell them 3
>x 3 bucks because buck
>genetics aren't expressed and don't
>matter! Pretty funny scenario
>guys that male genetics aren't
>expressed and don't matter!
>
>JM, I'm sure there are a
>lot of local Casper guys
>that would love to hunt
>87....one of the few limited
>deer units that can be
>driven back and forth to
>each day from home and
>has enough public land to
>keep a guy busy?
Give it up jims, this all started because you said a 4pt APR was left on 87 for too long and ruined the genetics. You were wrong about that, it was two years and it didn't do a thing and now you are trying to save face by arguing about genetics? I'm not for certain what your hang up is about all the 3xs you think you see in 87, but I can say with certainty, I have spent far more time in 87 than you have, it's my backyard dude and you are wrong.
And that's all I have to say about that...
Good job changing the subject JM! We are all waiting for you to answer my one question......Please post data or research that backs up the comment that dominate" genetics often times don't pass from bucks to their offspring, or if they do, they aren't expressed by their offspring."
You are absolutely right that I messed up and 87 was only a 4 pt or better unit for a couple years. It doesn't sound like you have regs back past 1980 but you are right on about the other 2 years. If there was also winterkill after those years with the 4 pt reg and there weren't many 4 pt bucks left in the unit it stands to reason that 3 pt bucks were doing the majority of breeding....it pretty much means that 3 pt genetics were (and still are) running rampant in 87 even after only a couple years of bad timing 4 pt regs that were in affect. Makes a heck of a lot of sense to me!
I wonder why there was so much fret over 4 pt+ in G and H and they changed over to 3x or better? Did they have 1 or 2 bad winters in that area and is it a coincidence that those units ARE NOT 4x or better this coming season?
I've spent a fair amount of time in 87 and the large chunk of area I spend time has gobs of 3x's....that likely wont change. Yes, I've seen a super nice buck in 87 from time to time but not many for all the time I've spent there and the gobs of 3xs I see.
I would also say that 87 is a very large unit with few deer tags and a fair amount of private land with steep/remote areas for bucks to mature. There are obviously a few super nice bucks that exist in the unit...some with a few extra cheaters. I currently have enough pts to draw 87 and there is no way I'm going to waste my points there. If you applied for 87 I hope you draw and find one of the few whoppers that exist! I would be excited for you! Living close, already knowing the unit, and having gobs of time you ought to do great! A nonres coming from the Midwest that doesn't know the unit may have a lot tougher time!
You are absolutely right that I messed up and 87 was only a 4 pt or better unit for a couple years. It doesn't sound like you have regs back past 1980 but you are right on about the other 2 years. If there was also winterkill after those years with the 4 pt reg and there weren't many 4 pt bucks left in the unit it stands to reason that 3 pt bucks were doing the majority of breeding....it pretty much means that 3 pt genetics were (and still are) running rampant in 87 even after only a couple years of bad timing 4 pt regs that were in affect. Makes a heck of a lot of sense to me!
I wonder why there was so much fret over 4 pt+ in G and H and they changed over to 3x or better? Did they have 1 or 2 bad winters in that area and is it a coincidence that those units ARE NOT 4x or better this coming season?
I've spent a fair amount of time in 87 and the large chunk of area I spend time has gobs of 3x's....that likely wont change. Yes, I've seen a super nice buck in 87 from time to time but not many for all the time I've spent there and the gobs of 3xs I see.
I would also say that 87 is a very large unit with few deer tags and a fair amount of private land with steep/remote areas for bucks to mature. There are obviously a few super nice bucks that exist in the unit...some with a few extra cheaters. I currently have enough pts to draw 87 and there is no way I'm going to waste my points there. If you applied for 87 I hope you draw and find one of the few whoppers that exist! I would be excited for you! Living close, already knowing the unit, and having gobs of time you ought to do great! A nonres coming from the Midwest that doesn't know the unit may have a lot tougher time!
You are 100% wrong about the APR in both G and H and why it is 3 point rather then 4 point. It has nothing to do which any biologist thinking that it would have been better for the herd as far as genetics go. It was put on to help the few fawns that did survive 2 winters ago get through their first year.
That being said from what all of the biologists have told me they feel APR does very little one way or the other to the over all genetics of the herd. They say time and time again, it is used more as a tool of good public relation more then anything else. I did not go to school and study what they have, so really no need for you to try and argue that point with me, I am just passing on info I have been told. Do with it what you will.
On a side note JM, if you don't mind looking it up, how many years was 154 (H) 4 points or better back in the 80's and into the 90's in a row. Seems to me it was always that way as I was growing up, but some of those years it may have just been a self imposed limit within our camp. Either way there were by no means a shortage of not only 4 points but also huge deer taken out of that country back then. Also just for a little extra info area 142 as I remember was always any buck. We actually camped in 142 but mostly hunted 154. Very rarely did anyone in camp "need" to hunt 142 for a meat buck, because there were plenty of "meat" bucks that were 4 points or better in our normal hunting areas.
That being said from what all of the biologists have told me they feel APR does very little one way or the other to the over all genetics of the herd. They say time and time again, it is used more as a tool of good public relation more then anything else. I did not go to school and study what they have, so really no need for you to try and argue that point with me, I am just passing on info I have been told. Do with it what you will.
On a side note JM, if you don't mind looking it up, how many years was 154 (H) 4 points or better back in the 80's and into the 90's in a row. Seems to me it was always that way as I was growing up, but some of those years it may have just been a self imposed limit within our camp. Either way there were by no means a shortage of not only 4 points but also huge deer taken out of that country back then. Also just for a little extra info area 142 as I remember was always any buck. We actually camped in 142 but mostly hunted 154. Very rarely did anyone in camp "need" to hunt 142 for a meat buck, because there were plenty of "meat" bucks that were 4 points or better in our normal hunting areas.
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,509
Tony,
I regret to inform you that the 4 pt APR was in place in area 154 for eight straight years, from 1980 until 1987.
This means that since two years of 4 pt APRs in area 87 ruined the genetics there, the genetics in area 154 for 3x3 bucks must be off the charts.
Sorry Tony
Jeff
I regret to inform you that the 4 pt APR was in place in area 154 for eight straight years, from 1980 until 1987.
This means that since two years of 4 pt APRs in area 87 ruined the genetics there, the genetics in area 154 for 3x3 bucks must be off the charts.
Sorry Tony
Jeff
rocky2track
Active Member
- Messages
- 324
>Tony,
>
>I regret to inform you that
>the 4 pt APR was
>in place in area 154
>for eight straight years, from
>1980 until 1987.
>
>This means that since two years
>of 4 pt APRs in
>area 87 ruined the genetics
>there, the genetics in area
>154 for 3x3 bucks must
>be off the charts.
>
>Sorry Tony
>
>Jeff
LOL...great stuff!!
>
>I regret to inform you that
>the 4 pt APR was
>in place in area 154
>for eight straight years, from
>1980 until 1987.
>
>This means that since two years
>of 4 pt APRs in
>area 87 ruined the genetics
>there, the genetics in area
>154 for 3x3 bucks must
>be off the charts.
>
>Sorry Tony
>
>Jeff
LOL...great stuff!!
LAST EDITED ON Jun-16-18 AT 08:34AM (MST)[p]I searched 154 Wyoming deer photos. 11 out of the first 13 pictures were 3x bucks! 2 of the bucks were super nice though! Quite a few 3xs and bucks with crab-claws if you ask me. Sounds like you guys have done well in 154....what if they didn't have the 4 pt+ reg in place for all those years....do you think it could be even better?
Here you go:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=154+wyoming+deer&qpvt=154+wyoming+deer&FORM=IGRE
Here you go:
https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=154+wyoming+deer&qpvt=154+wyoming+deer&FORM=IGRE
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,509
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-16-18
>AT 08:34?AM (MST)
>
>I searched 154 Wyoming deer photos.
> 11 out of the
>first 13 pictures were 3x
>bucks! 2 of the
>bucks were super nice though!
> Quite a few 3xs
>and bucks with crab-claws if
>you ask me. Sounds
>like you guys have done
>well in 154....what if they
>didn't have the 4 pt+
>reg in place for all
>those years....do you think it
>could be even better?
>
>Here you go:
>https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=154+wyoming+deer&qpvt=154+wyoming+deer&FORM=IGRE
Try your search engine for 87. What a joke! Put any deer area in there jims, see what you get.
>AT 08:34?AM (MST)
>
>I searched 154 Wyoming deer photos.
> 11 out of the
>first 13 pictures were 3x
>bucks! 2 of the
>bucks were super nice though!
> Quite a few 3xs
>and bucks with crab-claws if
>you ask me. Sounds
>like you guys have done
>well in 154....what if they
>didn't have the 4 pt+
>reg in place for all
>those years....do you think it
>could be even better?
>
>Here you go:
>https://www.bing.com/images/search?q=154+wyoming+deer&qpvt=154+wyoming+deer&FORM=IGRE
Try your search engine for 87. What a joke! Put any deer area in there jims, see what you get.
I wonder why 87 looks just as bad? Take a look here at bucks in an adjacent unit to 87 where I'm pretty sure there have never been any 4 pt regs in place. Looks like a little better genetics?
https://www.saverycreekoutfitters.com/deer-gallery
https://www.saverycreekoutfitters.com/deer-gallery
haha is this guy (Jims) for real?
I have no words except keep hunting via google I am sure that will work out for you just fine.
As far as the original poster goes, not that it matters now, but 102 isn't worth the points. I wouldn't and don't even put in for it as a resident that lives right there.
I have no words except keep hunting via google I am sure that will work out for you just fine.
As far as the original poster goes, not that it matters now, but 102 isn't worth the points. I wouldn't and don't even put in for it as a resident that lives right there.
Chesterwyo
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,600
I am going to play devil's advocate here. If one looks at the website for hoback peak outfitters, who guides in the area tknez mentioned they will see quite a few bucks with big three point frames. I really don't have an opinion on the effect of APR'S on antler genetics, Just a casual observation.
JakeSwensen
Active Member
- Messages
- 680
Checkout the Nontypical Outfitters website too, the greys river had a 4 point or better regulation in place in 1979... Genetics were definitely ruined! ha ha ha[font face="verdana" color="green"]
Jake Swensen
Jake Swensen
I just took a look at their webpage (which isn't very good)
I seen 3 out of 15 deer that are a 3x3 frame. Most if not almost all the deer they have on there don't appear to be mature either. Seems they kill a lot of small and also immature bucks. Not sure their sight is a very good rep. of anything of region H at least imo.
Maybe I am missing something on their page?
Remember when we are talking of the 4 pt APR that if a deer has 4 on either side, they are a deer that can be shot under that restriction. So for the purpose of this discussion any 3x4 deer do NOT count one way or the other, as they are fine to shoot with or without the APR. Also I read somewhere above about "crabclaw" 4 points. Again these deer do not belong in this topic for the same reason as a 3x4 doesn't. As a matter of fact a serious argument could be made that in an area that had 4pt APR there should be very few to no small crabby 4's or any 3x4's for that matter.
This can be debated back and forth , but I tend to agree with the biologist that say it really doesn't seem to have much of an effect one way or the other on genetics of the herd. One thing that can NOT be debated though is this... With either a 3 or 4 pt restriction in place more young bucks will survive any given hunting season.
I seen 3 out of 15 deer that are a 3x3 frame. Most if not almost all the deer they have on there don't appear to be mature either. Seems they kill a lot of small and also immature bucks. Not sure their sight is a very good rep. of anything of region H at least imo.
Maybe I am missing something on their page?
Remember when we are talking of the 4 pt APR that if a deer has 4 on either side, they are a deer that can be shot under that restriction. So for the purpose of this discussion any 3x4 deer do NOT count one way or the other, as they are fine to shoot with or without the APR. Also I read somewhere above about "crabclaw" 4 points. Again these deer do not belong in this topic for the same reason as a 3x4 doesn't. As a matter of fact a serious argument could be made that in an area that had 4pt APR there should be very few to no small crabby 4's or any 3x4's for that matter.
This can be debated back and forth , but I tend to agree with the biologist that say it really doesn't seem to have much of an effect one way or the other on genetics of the herd. One thing that can NOT be debated though is this... With either a 3 or 4 pt restriction in place more young bucks will survive any given hunting season.
Here is something else to add to the conversation to ponder on...
Lets take the high country in say Reg G. I would argue that for ever there has a self imposed 4 point or better regulation with most hunters that have marched the 2 to 3000' up into that country. I would say these self imposed regulations have been on most sense the first people first started going up there after deer. Why are we not dealing with nothing but a bunch of 3 points up there?
Lets take the high country in say Reg G. I would argue that for ever there has a self imposed 4 point or better regulation with most hunters that have marched the 2 to 3000' up into that country. I would say these self imposed regulations have been on most sense the first people first started going up there after deer. Why are we not dealing with nothing but a bunch of 3 points up there?
>>You put a game and fish
>>site up against an Outfitter
>>site? You're starting to remind
>>me of Lennie, Jims.
>>
>>
>>#livelikezac
>
>
>Some people just can't take NO
>for an answer, LOL!
>Hey DW---who is Lennie?
Ever read "Of Mice And Men"? The character Lennie, reminds me of a particular Oregonian on this site that claims he's a farmer.
#livelikezac
>>site up against an Outfitter
>>site? You're starting to remind
>>me of Lennie, Jims.
>>
>>
>>#livelikezac
>
>
>Some people just can't take NO
>for an answer, LOL!
>Hey DW---who is Lennie?
Ever read "Of Mice And Men"? The character Lennie, reminds me of a particular Oregonian on this site that claims he's a farmer.
#livelikezac
LAST EDITED ON Jun-17-18 AT 02:31AM (MST)[p]You guys are cutthroat! If you are like me, I'm a bit bored twiddling my thumbs waiting for the draws this time of year! I am obviously not giving up without a fight on what I feel is a significant problem in 87 and possibly other units in Wyoming! There is no doubt trophy muledeer in Wyo are struggling! The only reason I'm causing a ruckus is because I am concerned with what is going on!
Do any of you support the management buck regs on the premium deer units in Utah? Why would Utah start mgt buck regs on their premium Henry's and Paunsaugant units? Do you think it is in response to trophy hunters putting so much pressure on 4x or better bucks? That's part of what they state in this article.
https://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/managementBuck/ManagementBuckOrientationInfo.pdf
I totally agree with the post above and would expect there to be more mgt type bucks in units if the cream of the crop is harvested each year without 4x regs in affect. If you think about it, that's exactly what was taking place on the Henry's and Pausaugant.
Doesn't it make sense that 4x regs put even more pressure on trophy class bucks? With that said, do any of you think it would be wise for the WG&F to offer management buck tags in 87, G and H, and other units to ease pressure on trophy class bucks and harvest some of the large 3x's that exist? Just a thought?
Do any of you support the management buck regs on the premium deer units in Utah? Why would Utah start mgt buck regs on their premium Henry's and Paunsaugant units? Do you think it is in response to trophy hunters putting so much pressure on 4x or better bucks? That's part of what they state in this article.
https://wildlife.utah.gov/hunting/managementBuck/ManagementBuckOrientationInfo.pdf
I totally agree with the post above and would expect there to be more mgt type bucks in units if the cream of the crop is harvested each year without 4x regs in affect. If you think about it, that's exactly what was taking place on the Henry's and Pausaugant.
Doesn't it make sense that 4x regs put even more pressure on trophy class bucks? With that said, do any of you think it would be wise for the WG&F to offer management buck tags in 87, G and H, and other units to ease pressure on trophy class bucks and harvest some of the large 3x's that exist? Just a thought?
LAST EDITED ON Jun-17-18 AT 03:41AM (MST)[p]What is your proof that leads you to believe that trophy mule deer in Wyoming are struggling?
What is it that is going on that you are so concerned about? We as in the majority of residents don't seem to think there is a huge problem, we kind of like what we have. I would argue that most nonresidents must also like the product that Wyoming is selling as proof in draw odds for all of our big game, and also hunter satisfaction surveys.
Maybe your idea of a trophy mule deer is a lot different then mine.
I hear so much about the Henry's... I have seen some great bucks come out of there for sure, but the top end bucks off there are no better then the top end that come out of G/H every year at least from what I have seen. Maybe I am missing some of the REAL big deer that are killed there? All of this while we as residents get to hunt it every year, and nonresidents every few in H and about every 5 or so in G. I will take our situation over anything Utah has going on. No I do not think we need to follow anything that Utah is doing. What we have now works just fine.
If you totally agree with my post above about self regulating 4 point or better for many years, then lets start there.
In a typical year of scouting I usually will look over say 200 bucks. In those I would guess about 10% of them, say 20 bucks, are more mature type deer that do not have the typical 4x4 frame. Is that way out of line the way you see it? I tend to think it is probably pretty normal, but I might be off... Now some of those "bad genetic" bucks still grow into true trophy class deer if given the amount of years it takes. Again we are talking about areas that I feel have been for 4 points or better hunts for decades either by GnF or mostly self imposed.
I also kind of disagree with you that 4 pt. restrictions put more pressure on trophy deer. Lets think about this. First off I would think most people that want to shoot any buck would just pick a different area. Now lest take the rest that want to shoot any legal buck. Wouldn't they shoot this first small crabclaw 4x4 they see. Or what about that 3x3 with one eyegaurd? I really have a hard time wrapping my brain around the fact that you would have a ton of hunters in an area that are primarily meat hunters, but are going to be killing trophy class (180" plus) bucks just because the is a 4 pt restriction.
HAHA I think it would be a great idea for say 20 percent of the non resident tags in both G and H to be designated for 3 points or less... We don't need that restriction as residents as we can buy a general tag anyway. I think you really might be onto something there...
There seems to be such a big push by non residents to "save" our deer herds for us that maybe all non res tags for say the next 5 years or so should only be good for management type bucks.
Lets even take it one stem further and all guides can only guide for those same type of bucks. I am sure ol Rob would sign up for this right now, cuz we all know how concerned he is with the deer herds.
HAHA I am sure you realize the last 2 paragraphs were very tongue and cheek kind of.
So a real question for you. In a free ranging top of the line type of mule deer herd how many 3x3 or even 4x3 frame mature bucks should there be?
Lets add one more thing in here. I think it is fare to say we all realize most all 200" plus bucks start off as a 2 point or maybe a little 3 point right? How many monster bucks get whacked before they are even 2 years old? How far down this rabbit hole should we go? I hear Antelope Island has some pretty good bucks. Maybe that is the model we should follow.
What is it that is going on that you are so concerned about? We as in the majority of residents don't seem to think there is a huge problem, we kind of like what we have. I would argue that most nonresidents must also like the product that Wyoming is selling as proof in draw odds for all of our big game, and also hunter satisfaction surveys.
Maybe your idea of a trophy mule deer is a lot different then mine.
I hear so much about the Henry's... I have seen some great bucks come out of there for sure, but the top end bucks off there are no better then the top end that come out of G/H every year at least from what I have seen. Maybe I am missing some of the REAL big deer that are killed there? All of this while we as residents get to hunt it every year, and nonresidents every few in H and about every 5 or so in G. I will take our situation over anything Utah has going on. No I do not think we need to follow anything that Utah is doing. What we have now works just fine.
If you totally agree with my post above about self regulating 4 point or better for many years, then lets start there.
In a typical year of scouting I usually will look over say 200 bucks. In those I would guess about 10% of them, say 20 bucks, are more mature type deer that do not have the typical 4x4 frame. Is that way out of line the way you see it? I tend to think it is probably pretty normal, but I might be off... Now some of those "bad genetic" bucks still grow into true trophy class deer if given the amount of years it takes. Again we are talking about areas that I feel have been for 4 points or better hunts for decades either by GnF or mostly self imposed.
I also kind of disagree with you that 4 pt. restrictions put more pressure on trophy deer. Lets think about this. First off I would think most people that want to shoot any buck would just pick a different area. Now lest take the rest that want to shoot any legal buck. Wouldn't they shoot this first small crabclaw 4x4 they see. Or what about that 3x3 with one eyegaurd? I really have a hard time wrapping my brain around the fact that you would have a ton of hunters in an area that are primarily meat hunters, but are going to be killing trophy class (180" plus) bucks just because the is a 4 pt restriction.
HAHA I think it would be a great idea for say 20 percent of the non resident tags in both G and H to be designated for 3 points or less... We don't need that restriction as residents as we can buy a general tag anyway. I think you really might be onto something there...
There seems to be such a big push by non residents to "save" our deer herds for us that maybe all non res tags for say the next 5 years or so should only be good for management type bucks.
Lets even take it one stem further and all guides can only guide for those same type of bucks. I am sure ol Rob would sign up for this right now, cuz we all know how concerned he is with the deer herds.
HAHA I am sure you realize the last 2 paragraphs were very tongue and cheek kind of.
So a real question for you. In a free ranging top of the line type of mule deer herd how many 3x3 or even 4x3 frame mature bucks should there be?
Lets add one more thing in here. I think it is fare to say we all realize most all 200" plus bucks start off as a 2 point or maybe a little 3 point right? How many monster bucks get whacked before they are even 2 years old? How far down this rabbit hole should we go? I hear Antelope Island has some pretty good bucks. Maybe that is the model we should follow.
270Whatelse
Active Member
- Messages
- 777
Happy father's day......
LAST EDITED ON Jun-17-18 AT 10:20AM (MST)[p]TKnez, it sounds like you are super excited about how the muledeer are doing in Wyo? Is there room for improvement and is there any reason to be concerned? I have a feeling those that have hunted 101 and 102, G and H for years would likely say otherwise? If you want numbers there were 600 tags issued in G in past years and tags cut to 400 in 2018. In H 800 tags cut to 600 tags. Unit 102 was 400 tags in the past and 250 in 2018. The 3+ pt restrictions were started in 2018 in a gob of G and H units....was there are reason for this? What happens if there is another horrible winter in Western Wyo? No need to be concerned and things should stay exactly as they are?
It sounds like you also don't agree with Utah's management buck scenario? I have a feeling it's a win-win situation for those that draw management tags and have the opportunity to hunt a premium unit and possibly harvest a monster 3x) plus this is very likely to take some of the big 3x bucks that breed does out of the gene pool. I have a feeling the same thing would be true if a few 3x tags were available in 87. I'm sure there a lot of hunters that would be happy to draw a 3x tag to cull management bucks and put meat in the freezer?
Part of the reason I bring this up is the dramatic positive changes that have taken place in the past 10 years in neighboring Colorado. The number of B&C bucks here in Colo has caught national attention. It seems like change is slow in the works in Wyo even if smart change could potentially improve an already great resource. Utah made positive changes with mgt buck tags in 2 of their premium units. It makes sense to me that Wyo could use successful changes from other states as examples that could be used to their advantage?
In regard to your last question...how many 3xs should be allowed? I would venture a guess that most wildlife managers would fluctuate management buck tags from year to year with winterkill, harvest, and field surveys, etc, and other objectives. As long as there are mature 3xs in the herd breeding does it may be a good idea to manage them? To use Utah as an example there were 25 Henry's any weapon tags and 12 mgt tags offered in 2017. On the Paunsaugant there were 92 any weapons tags and 29 mgt buck tags offered in 2017. Mgt buck tag numbers obviously weren't the same % for each unit and likely fluctuate from year to year.
Happy Father's Day to all you hunters out there!
It sounds like you also don't agree with Utah's management buck scenario? I have a feeling it's a win-win situation for those that draw management tags and have the opportunity to hunt a premium unit and possibly harvest a monster 3x) plus this is very likely to take some of the big 3x bucks that breed does out of the gene pool. I have a feeling the same thing would be true if a few 3x tags were available in 87. I'm sure there a lot of hunters that would be happy to draw a 3x tag to cull management bucks and put meat in the freezer?
Part of the reason I bring this up is the dramatic positive changes that have taken place in the past 10 years in neighboring Colorado. The number of B&C bucks here in Colo has caught national attention. It seems like change is slow in the works in Wyo even if smart change could potentially improve an already great resource. Utah made positive changes with mgt buck tags in 2 of their premium units. It makes sense to me that Wyo could use successful changes from other states as examples that could be used to their advantage?
In regard to your last question...how many 3xs should be allowed? I would venture a guess that most wildlife managers would fluctuate management buck tags from year to year with winterkill, harvest, and field surveys, etc, and other objectives. As long as there are mature 3xs in the herd breeding does it may be a good idea to manage them? To use Utah as an example there were 25 Henry's any weapon tags and 12 mgt tags offered in 2017. On the Paunsaugant there were 92 any weapons tags and 29 mgt buck tags offered in 2017. Mgt buck tag numbers obviously weren't the same % for each unit and likely fluctuate from year to year.
Happy Father's Day to all you hunters out there!
nontypical
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,298
The Henry's and Pauns management hunts are/were NOT intended to reduce inferior genetics. Those hunts original intention were to simply give more hunt opportunity while not putting more pressure on the giants that everyone wants to kill. Any informed Utahn will tell you that. Many times, management hunts and APR's are borne out of public pressure, not biological data. For instance; the current 3-pt or better seasons in western Wyoming( G&H) were began as a result of resident sportsmen demanding that change after seeing positive results in more 3&4 pts in the herd in region K; NOT for any sound biological reason.
As has been pointed out many times in this thread( and many others), genetics are as important( maybe more so) in the doe as they are in the buck. So what if Popeye's mom never "bumped uglies" with another buck that had the same genetics as his dad did? Answer: No more Popeyes! The odds of the "genetically perfect" doe meeting and breeding with the "genetically perfect" buck to create a 240"er have to be astronomical. In any herd; anywhere.
I will add this: I don't believe the herd in G will ever reach objective. Too many obstacles. But...what I saw on the winter range this past year far exceeded what I thought I would see in light of last year's winter. Giants will be killed in G&H this coming season...
As has been pointed out many times in this thread( and many others), genetics are as important( maybe more so) in the doe as they are in the buck. So what if Popeye's mom never "bumped uglies" with another buck that had the same genetics as his dad did? Answer: No more Popeyes! The odds of the "genetically perfect" doe meeting and breeding with the "genetically perfect" buck to create a 240"er have to be astronomical. In any herd; anywhere.
I will add this: I don't believe the herd in G will ever reach objective. Too many obstacles. But...what I saw on the winter range this past year far exceeded what I thought I would see in light of last year's winter. Giants will be killed in G&H this coming season...
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-17-18
>AT 10:20?AM (MST)
>
>TKnez, it sounds like you are
>super excited about how the
>muledeer are doing in Wyo?
That is a little bit of a loaded statement. Area 101 and 102, I am very disappointed in that herd. G and H, I am very happy with. Most of the rest of the state I really can't speak to.
> Is there room for
>improvement and is there any
>reason to be concerned?
G and H speaking, as of right now I think things are good to great, and when you through in the fact of the great access to res., and non res hunters into that equation I would rate those areas as excellent!
>I have a feeling those
>that have hunted 101 and
>102, G and H for
>years would likely say otherwise?
I can't speak to what your gut tells you, but I will say there are not many people around that have the experience in G and H that I have along with friends and family. Take it for what its worth.
> If you want numbers
>there were 600 tags issued
>in G in past years
>and tags cut to 400
>in 2018. In H
>800 tags cut to 600
>tags.
Yup you are right. Do you know why these numbers were cut?
Unit 102 was
>400 tags in the past
>and 250 in 2018.
There also have been lower number of tags in the past here... Again I am not happy with this area's top end buck population, but that is an entirely different debate. By the way, 102 has been LQ for about 35 years, and also has never had a APR on it to my knowledge. I wonder why the trophy quality out there sucks so bad? Also there are more than its fair share of big 3 point bucks.
>The 3+ pt restrictions were
>started in 2018 in a
>gob of G and H
>units....was there are reason for
>this?
I answered this above and also non typical gave the other reason for this. There were very few yearling deer going into that hunting season due to the winter before it. It was a effort to try and save the few that did make it. As said above more feel good then anything.
What happens if
>there is another horrible winter
>in Western Wyo?
Well we have been dealing with them for 100's of years, so I expect more to come. hopefully not quite as bad as that one was for a while though...
No
>need to be concerned and
>things should stay exactly as
>they are?
They have been good now for a very long time! The last time there was need for huge concern for G and H the hunting community demanded change and it happened. If and when that time comes again, I am sure we will demand change again.
>
>It sounds like you also don't
>agree with Utah's management buck
>scenario? I have a
>feeling it's a win-win situation
>for those that draw management
>tags and have the opportunity
>to hunt a premium unit
>and possibly harvest a monster
>3x) plus this is very
>likely to take some of
>the big 3x bucks that
>breed does out of the
>gene pool. I have
>a feeling the same thing
>would be true if a
>few 3x tags were available
>in 87. I'm sure
>there a lot of hunters
>that would be happy to
>draw a 3x tag to
>cull management bucks and put
>meat in the freezer?
I really don't care about how Utah manages there trophy units, it does not have any bearing on anything I want to be a part of. As far as the whole genetic thing again. I really feel a large amount of people need to take a basic Biology class. As non Typic said above, what about the does? They are MORE than 50% of just the genetics of this equation. Then through in feed and also age if a buck, not to even mention condition of the doe when she does give birth.
>
>Part of the reason I bring
>this up is the dramatic
>positive changes that have taken
>place in the past 10
>years in neighboring Colorado.
>The number of B&C bucks
>here in Colo has caught
>national attention. It seems
>like change is slow in
>the works in Wyo even
>if smart change could potentially
>improve an already great resource.
I don't know how people for other states will EVER understand this. We do not want what you have with your huge population's. If we do we will move there. Of course Region G could produce tons of 200" deer every year opposed to the say 10 or so it does now. But at what price? 100 tags a year like the Henry's? Hunting it once in a lifetime? I know many outfitters would love this, but not us.
> Utah made positive changes
>with mgt buck tags in
>2 of their premium units.
> It makes sense to
>me that Wyo could use
>successful changes from other states
>as examples that could be
>used to their advantage?
>
>In regard to your last question...how
>many 3xs should be allowed?
> I would venture a
>guess that most wildlife managers
>would fluctuate management buck tags
>from year to year with
>winterkill, harvest, and field surveys,
>etc, and other objectives.
>As long as there are
>mature 3xs in the herd
>breeding does it may be
>a good idea to manage
>them? To use Utah
>as an example there were
>25 Henry's any weapon tags
>and 12 mgt tags offered
>in 2017. On the
>Paunsaugant there were 92 any
>weapons tags and 29 mgt
>buck tags offered in 2017.
> Mgt buck tag numbers
>obviously weren't the same %
>for each unit and likely
>fluctuate from year to year.
>
>
>Happy Father's Day to all you
>hunters out there!
The whole genetic topic is a very slippery slope. Most people agree that Popeye died of old age. At any rate he had about 6 or even 7 years of breeding does. Why was there never any bucks that showed up that came close to what he was. For that matter where was his dad at? As non typical states, the odds of everything lining up and making those kind of superbucks are out of this world! Of course it can do nothing but help when you are dealing with the world class genetics that the Wyoming range deer herd has, but still it is a huge long shot.
IMO to manage a wild free ranging herd to try and hit the lottery a few more times over numerous years, and not take into account hunter access and also hunter satisfaction is a horrible model to follow.
Happy Fathers Day!
>AT 10:20?AM (MST)
>
>TKnez, it sounds like you are
>super excited about how the
>muledeer are doing in Wyo?
That is a little bit of a loaded statement. Area 101 and 102, I am very disappointed in that herd. G and H, I am very happy with. Most of the rest of the state I really can't speak to.
> Is there room for
>improvement and is there any
>reason to be concerned?
G and H speaking, as of right now I think things are good to great, and when you through in the fact of the great access to res., and non res hunters into that equation I would rate those areas as excellent!
>I have a feeling those
>that have hunted 101 and
>102, G and H for
>years would likely say otherwise?
I can't speak to what your gut tells you, but I will say there are not many people around that have the experience in G and H that I have along with friends and family. Take it for what its worth.
> If you want numbers
>there were 600 tags issued
>in G in past years
>and tags cut to 400
>in 2018. In H
>800 tags cut to 600
>tags.
Yup you are right. Do you know why these numbers were cut?
Unit 102 was
>400 tags in the past
>and 250 in 2018.
There also have been lower number of tags in the past here... Again I am not happy with this area's top end buck population, but that is an entirely different debate. By the way, 102 has been LQ for about 35 years, and also has never had a APR on it to my knowledge. I wonder why the trophy quality out there sucks so bad? Also there are more than its fair share of big 3 point bucks.
>The 3+ pt restrictions were
>started in 2018 in a
>gob of G and H
>units....was there are reason for
>this?
I answered this above and also non typical gave the other reason for this. There were very few yearling deer going into that hunting season due to the winter before it. It was a effort to try and save the few that did make it. As said above more feel good then anything.
What happens if
>there is another horrible winter
>in Western Wyo?
Well we have been dealing with them for 100's of years, so I expect more to come. hopefully not quite as bad as that one was for a while though...
No
>need to be concerned and
>things should stay exactly as
>they are?
They have been good now for a very long time! The last time there was need for huge concern for G and H the hunting community demanded change and it happened. If and when that time comes again, I am sure we will demand change again.
>
>It sounds like you also don't
>agree with Utah's management buck
>scenario? I have a
>feeling it's a win-win situation
>for those that draw management
>tags and have the opportunity
>to hunt a premium unit
>and possibly harvest a monster
>3x) plus this is very
>likely to take some of
>the big 3x bucks that
>breed does out of the
>gene pool. I have
>a feeling the same thing
>would be true if a
>few 3x tags were available
>in 87. I'm sure
>there a lot of hunters
>that would be happy to
>draw a 3x tag to
>cull management bucks and put
>meat in the freezer?
I really don't care about how Utah manages there trophy units, it does not have any bearing on anything I want to be a part of. As far as the whole genetic thing again. I really feel a large amount of people need to take a basic Biology class. As non Typic said above, what about the does? They are MORE than 50% of just the genetics of this equation. Then through in feed and also age if a buck, not to even mention condition of the doe when she does give birth.
>
>Part of the reason I bring
>this up is the dramatic
>positive changes that have taken
>place in the past 10
>years in neighboring Colorado.
>The number of B&C bucks
>here in Colo has caught
>national attention. It seems
>like change is slow in
>the works in Wyo even
>if smart change could potentially
>improve an already great resource.
I don't know how people for other states will EVER understand this. We do not want what you have with your huge population's. If we do we will move there. Of course Region G could produce tons of 200" deer every year opposed to the say 10 or so it does now. But at what price? 100 tags a year like the Henry's? Hunting it once in a lifetime? I know many outfitters would love this, but not us.
> Utah made positive changes
>with mgt buck tags in
>2 of their premium units.
> It makes sense to
>me that Wyo could use
>successful changes from other states
>as examples that could be
>used to their advantage?
>
>In regard to your last question...how
>many 3xs should be allowed?
> I would venture a
>guess that most wildlife managers
>would fluctuate management buck tags
>from year to year with
>winterkill, harvest, and field surveys,
>etc, and other objectives.
>As long as there are
>mature 3xs in the herd
>breeding does it may be
>a good idea to manage
>them? To use Utah
>as an example there were
>25 Henry's any weapon tags
>and 12 mgt tags offered
>in 2017. On the
>Paunsaugant there were 92 any
>weapons tags and 29 mgt
>buck tags offered in 2017.
> Mgt buck tag numbers
>obviously weren't the same %
>for each unit and likely
>fluctuate from year to year.
>
>
>Happy Father's Day to all you
>hunters out there!
The whole genetic topic is a very slippery slope. Most people agree that Popeye died of old age. At any rate he had about 6 or even 7 years of breeding does. Why was there never any bucks that showed up that came close to what he was. For that matter where was his dad at? As non typical states, the odds of everything lining up and making those kind of superbucks are out of this world! Of course it can do nothing but help when you are dealing with the world class genetics that the Wyoming range deer herd has, but still it is a huge long shot.
IMO to manage a wild free ranging herd to try and hit the lottery a few more times over numerous years, and not take into account hunter access and also hunter satisfaction is a horrible model to follow.
Happy Fathers Day!
It might be worth the time to watch this game dept presentation.
http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos_2018/15424clipboard01.jpg
http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos_2018/15424clipboard01.jpg
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,509
LAST EDITED ON Jun-17-18 AT 11:15PM (MST)[p]>It might be worth the time
>to watch this game dept
>presentation.
>
>
Here is the link to Montiefs presentation. The information on how antler size is related to mother doe. It starts around the 2 hour 30 min point, however the whole presentation is worth watching from the 1 hour 55 min point.
>to watch this game dept
>presentation.
>
>
Here is the link to Montiefs presentation. The information on how antler size is related to mother doe. It starts around the 2 hour 30 min point, however the whole presentation is worth watching from the 1 hour 55 min point.
Here's an interesting article that has quite a few twists in it that relate to genetics, importance of age structure of bucks, and breeding of does. The article mentions the importance of older age class bucks in breeding does....a different twist!
http://muledeercountry.com/tag/genetics/
It's obvious that many Wyo residents are totally against any change in managing G and H muledeer. They enjoy hunting those units every year. Could region G and H be significantly improved...I believe so. What about the remainder of Wyo? It definitely seems like there is a lot of room for improvement! There could be small management tweaks and changes that could provide significant improvements without limiting resident opportunity. Its obvious that pretty much everything I've said has been twisted and blasted to protect that opportunity.
http://muledeercountry.com/tag/genetics/
It's obvious that many Wyo residents are totally against any change in managing G and H muledeer. They enjoy hunting those units every year. Could region G and H be significantly improved...I believe so. What about the remainder of Wyo? It definitely seems like there is a lot of room for improvement! There could be small management tweaks and changes that could provide significant improvements without limiting resident opportunity. Its obvious that pretty much everything I've said has been twisted and blasted to protect that opportunity.
Nothing you've conjectured has been twisted at all and that's about all that you've posted. What has been stated by several guys that have lived in Wyoming their entire lives are scientific, biological facts and not some outfitters website like you posted to try to prove their point!
Its obvious that pretty much everything I've said has been twisted and blasted to protect that opportunity
Could you give examples of when your words have been twisted by myself or anyone else on here to drive any certain agenda? I don't think I have done this, but if you can point out where I have I will apologize in advance.
As for the article you posted I will re read and comment sense you are interested in "what we think"
Could you give examples of when your words have been twisted by myself or anyone else on here to drive any certain agenda? I don't think I have done this, but if you can point out where I have I will apologize in advance.
As for the article you posted I will re read and comment sense you are interested in "what we think"
Interesting read and some thought provoking points that he brings up. I would ask where is the science and data behind some of his "facts". What deer herds is it that he is collecting this data from? Seems in his last few sentences he kind of sums things up by saying let the young buck live a few years, and it is ok not to punch a tag every year.... I think you wouldn't get much argument from many on this sight about that. Wouldn't a 4 APR help in achieving that?
I see a few deer with spots still in sept. but not many. Very few to be exact, so if that is the case in this certain herd he might be talking about, then I would think there should be someone looking into that for sure.
Did you watch the video above? If so what did you think? I like it when there is data and facts given even if it goes against what I thought I knew. Facts and data that come from years of observing these deer help to make good management decisions.
I see a few deer with spots still in sept. but not many. Very few to be exact, so if that is the case in this certain herd he might be talking about, then I would think there should be someone looking into that for sure.
Did you watch the video above? If so what did you think? I like it when there is data and facts given even if it goes against what I thought I knew. Facts and data that come from years of observing these deer help to make good management decisions.
LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-18 AT 01:29AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-18 AT 01:22?AM (MST)
LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-18 AT 01:17?AM (MST)
The video above is a great set of data! Thanks for sharing that with everyone! It's great that Wyo has such great data! My curiosity was killing me so I made time to watch the doe section.
One question comes to mind when he mentions that the does in captivity were producing larger bucks in antler/body size than their father. I totally agree that a doe in fantastic physical condition would likely produce fawns that are also in great condition.
The thing I really can't figure out is how he determines that the son's body size/antlers is totally dependent upon the doe for the remainder of the bucks life? Wouldn't you expect a fawn born in captivity to be larger and produce better antlers at 3 years of age just from the fact he is getting better nutrition in captivity? I really don't understand how he can correlate everything to the health and genetics of the doe when a lot of it likely comes from nutrition after he is born?
If you've watched Sportsman's channel shows you've likely noticed the rave for bagged supplement buck feed and food plots that supposedly grow healthier and bigger racked bucks? I would expect a newborn fawn buck taken from the Blackhills and raised in captivity with great nutrition for 3 years would likely end up similar to the buck in the picture?
To prove his point about doe health and genetics he would need to take a buck born from a healthy doe and let him live in the blackhills environment for 3 years....then compare the buck to his father. He really isn't making a fair comparison and ruling out the bucks nutrition after he is born. My guess is that if the same fawn buck in the photo lived his entire life in the Blackhills his antlers/body would likely be relatively close to his fathers?
With that said, I have kept tight tabs on Wyo antelope bucks and horn growth for years...related to winterkill, drought, moist years, etc. I've noticed that antelope bucks born in drought or tough years tend to have smaller horns for the remainder of their lives while antelope buck fawns born in excellent years have massive horns for their entire lives. I'm not sure if this holds true for muley bucks since their velvet starts from scratch every year and may be may not be influenced by year to year weather/forage conditions?
Healthy habitat and healthy does definitely are important!
LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-18 AT 01:17?AM (MST)
The video above is a great set of data! Thanks for sharing that with everyone! It's great that Wyo has such great data! My curiosity was killing me so I made time to watch the doe section.
One question comes to mind when he mentions that the does in captivity were producing larger bucks in antler/body size than their father. I totally agree that a doe in fantastic physical condition would likely produce fawns that are also in great condition.
The thing I really can't figure out is how he determines that the son's body size/antlers is totally dependent upon the doe for the remainder of the bucks life? Wouldn't you expect a fawn born in captivity to be larger and produce better antlers at 3 years of age just from the fact he is getting better nutrition in captivity? I really don't understand how he can correlate everything to the health and genetics of the doe when a lot of it likely comes from nutrition after he is born?
If you've watched Sportsman's channel shows you've likely noticed the rave for bagged supplement buck feed and food plots that supposedly grow healthier and bigger racked bucks? I would expect a newborn fawn buck taken from the Blackhills and raised in captivity with great nutrition for 3 years would likely end up similar to the buck in the picture?
To prove his point about doe health and genetics he would need to take a buck born from a healthy doe and let him live in the blackhills environment for 3 years....then compare the buck to his father. He really isn't making a fair comparison and ruling out the bucks nutrition after he is born. My guess is that if the same fawn buck in the photo lived his entire life in the Blackhills his antlers/body would likely be relatively close to his fathers?
With that said, I have kept tight tabs on Wyo antelope bucks and horn growth for years...related to winterkill, drought, moist years, etc. I've noticed that antelope bucks born in drought or tough years tend to have smaller horns for the remainder of their lives while antelope buck fawns born in excellent years have massive horns for their entire lives. I'm not sure if this holds true for muley bucks since their velvet starts from scratch every year and may be may not be influenced by year to year weather/forage conditions?
Healthy habitat and healthy does definitely are important!
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,342
LAST EDITED ON Jun-20-18 AT 05:27PM (MST)[p]https://wgfd.wyo.gov/WGFD/media/content/PDF/Hunting/Drawing%20Odds/DRAW_DEER_PP_NONRES_2018.pdf
Drew my tag. Good incentive to do some 3D archery shoots this summer. Will hit it the first full week, then head south to Fort Collins to visit family.
Drew my tag. Good incentive to do some 3D archery shoots this summer. Will hit it the first full week, then head south to Fort Collins to visit family.
sheephunter
Active Member
- Messages
- 189
Zim could you post the link for Non Resident Antelope Special Pref Point please. I can't seem to open it. Thanks.
sheephunter
Active Member
- Messages
- 189
Figured it out. Thanks. Colorado was the same way this year.
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,509
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-18
>AT 01:29?AM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-18
>AT 01:22?AM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-18
>AT 01:17?AM (MST)
>
>The video above is a great
>set of data! Thanks
>for sharing that with everyone!
> It's great that Wyo
>has such great data!
>My curiosity was killing me
>so I made time to
>watch the doe section.
>
>One question comes to mind when
>he mentions that the does
>in captivity were producing larger
>bucks in antler/body size than
>their father. I totally
>agree that a doe in
>fantastic physical condition would likely
>produce fawns that are also
>in great condition.
>
>The thing I really can't figure
>out is how he determines
>that the son's body size/antlers
>is totally dependent upon the
>doe for the remainder of
>the bucks life? Wouldn't
>you expect a fawn born
>in captivity to be larger
>and produce better antlers at
>3 years of age just
>from the fact he is
>getting better nutrition in captivity?
> I really don't understand
>how he can correlate everything
>to the health and genetics
>of the doe when a
>lot of it likely comes
>from nutrition after he is
>born?
>
>If you've watched Sportsman's channel shows
>you've likely noticed the rave
>for bagged supplement buck feed
>and food plots that supposedly
>grow healthier and bigger racked
>bucks? I would expect
>a newborn fawn buck taken
>from the Blackhills and raised
>in captivity with great nutrition
>for 3 years would likely
>end up similar to the
>buck in the picture?
>
>To prove his point about doe
>health and genetics he would
>need to take a buck
>born from a healthy doe
>and let him live in
>the blackhills environment for 3
>years....then compare the buck to
>his father. He really
>isn't making a fair comparison
>and ruling out the bucks
>nutrition after he is born.
> My guess is that
>if the same fawn buck
>in the photo lived his
>entire life in the Blackhills
>his antlers/body would likely be
>relatively close to his fathers?
>
>
>With that said, I have kept
>tight tabs on Wyo antelope
>bucks and horn growth for
>years...related to winterkill, drought, moist
>years, etc. I've noticed
>that antelope bucks born in
>drought or tough years tend
>to have smaller horns for
>the remainder of their lives
>while antelope buck fawns born
>in excellent years have massive
>horns for their entire lives.
> I'm not sure if
>this holds true for muley
>bucks since their velvet starts
>from scratch every year and
>may be may not be
>influenced by year to year
>weather/forage conditions?
>
>Healthy habitat and healthy does definitely
>are important!
Most of your questions are answered in the presentation jims, watch the whole thing. It made no difference in antler size on the bucks taken from their natural environment, even if they pumped them more nutrition. The sons grew bigger head gear only if the doe had been beefed up into better condition.
>AT 01:29?AM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-18
>AT 01:22?AM (MST)
>
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-19-18
>AT 01:17?AM (MST)
>
>The video above is a great
>set of data! Thanks
>for sharing that with everyone!
> It's great that Wyo
>has such great data!
>My curiosity was killing me
>so I made time to
>watch the doe section.
>
>One question comes to mind when
>he mentions that the does
>in captivity were producing larger
>bucks in antler/body size than
>their father. I totally
>agree that a doe in
>fantastic physical condition would likely
>produce fawns that are also
>in great condition.
>
>The thing I really can't figure
>out is how he determines
>that the son's body size/antlers
>is totally dependent upon the
>doe for the remainder of
>the bucks life? Wouldn't
>you expect a fawn born
>in captivity to be larger
>and produce better antlers at
>3 years of age just
>from the fact he is
>getting better nutrition in captivity?
> I really don't understand
>how he can correlate everything
>to the health and genetics
>of the doe when a
>lot of it likely comes
>from nutrition after he is
>born?
>
>If you've watched Sportsman's channel shows
>you've likely noticed the rave
>for bagged supplement buck feed
>and food plots that supposedly
>grow healthier and bigger racked
>bucks? I would expect
>a newborn fawn buck taken
>from the Blackhills and raised
>in captivity with great nutrition
>for 3 years would likely
>end up similar to the
>buck in the picture?
>
>To prove his point about doe
>health and genetics he would
>need to take a buck
>born from a healthy doe
>and let him live in
>the blackhills environment for 3
>years....then compare the buck to
>his father. He really
>isn't making a fair comparison
>and ruling out the bucks
>nutrition after he is born.
> My guess is that
>if the same fawn buck
>in the photo lived his
>entire life in the Blackhills
>his antlers/body would likely be
>relatively close to his fathers?
>
>
>With that said, I have kept
>tight tabs on Wyo antelope
>bucks and horn growth for
>years...related to winterkill, drought, moist
>years, etc. I've noticed
>that antelope bucks born in
>drought or tough years tend
>to have smaller horns for
>the remainder of their lives
>while antelope buck fawns born
>in excellent years have massive
>horns for their entire lives.
> I'm not sure if
>this holds true for muley
>bucks since their velvet starts
>from scratch every year and
>may be may not be
>influenced by year to year
>weather/forage conditions?
>
>Healthy habitat and healthy does definitely
>are important!
Most of your questions are answered in the presentation jims, watch the whole thing. It made no difference in antler size on the bucks taken from their natural environment, even if they pumped them more nutrition. The sons grew bigger head gear only if the doe had been beefed up into better condition.
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,342
LAST EDITED ON Jun-21-18 AT 04:19AM (MST)[p]>Zim could you post the link
>for Non Resident Antelope Special
>Pref Point please. I
>can't seem to open it.
> Thanks.
http://wgfcms.wyo.gov/Hunting/Drawing-Odds
Click link...go to the 2017 draw odds...click on whatever one you want to look at...then when that page pulls up, click on the URL bar, scroll all the way to the end and change the 2017 to a 2018...and you will have the 2018 draw odds.
>for Non Resident Antelope Special
>Pref Point please. I
>can't seem to open it.
> Thanks.
http://wgfcms.wyo.gov/Hunting/Drawing-Odds
Click link...go to the 2017 draw odds...click on whatever one you want to look at...then when that page pulls up, click on the URL bar, scroll all the way to the end and change the 2017 to a 2018...and you will have the 2018 draw odds.
BluffGruff
Active Member
- Messages
- 386
>LAST EDITED ON Jun-01-18
>AT 05:39?PM (MST)
>
>I'm done waiting and ready to
>hunt so I really want
>to burn my WY max
>deer points this year. Haven?t
>drawn anything elsewhere as well.
>I've narrowed my deer choice
>down to either 87 or
>102. Wanted to get
>thoughts on this. Big
>factor is my wife will
>accompany me. Her first time
>on any hunt. We
>are 53 & 58 and
>in good shape. Wondering
>how the water, terrain and
>proximity to towns compares with
>these two hunts. I expect
>she will need a hotel
>occasionally for a break from
>camping. Wi-Fi for my
>work would also allow me
>to extend my hunt. Could
>arrive a week early to
>scout and hunt the full
>two weeks if necessary.
>Thanks.
Did you draw?
>AT 05:39?PM (MST)
>
>I'm done waiting and ready to
>hunt so I really want
>to burn my WY max
>deer points this year. Haven?t
>drawn anything elsewhere as well.
>I've narrowed my deer choice
>down to either 87 or
>102. Wanted to get
>thoughts on this. Big
>factor is my wife will
>accompany me. Her first time
>on any hunt. We
>are 53 & 58 and
>in good shape. Wondering
>how the water, terrain and
>proximity to towns compares with
>these two hunts. I expect
>she will need a hotel
>occasionally for a break from
>camping. Wi-Fi for my
>work would also allow me
>to extend my hunt. Could
>arrive a week early to
>scout and hunt the full
>two weeks if necessary.
>Thanks.
Did you draw?
Zim
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,342
LAST EDITED ON Jun-29-18 AT 04:52PM (MST)[p]Yikes am I glad I decided to cash points for either of these hunts this year. Final results for all states are in. 0-fer-2 in Arizona so if I'd not spent these WY points I'd have no tags at all this year! Works out pretty well because with the archery opener so far before the rifle, I should basically get two hunts out of this. Unless I score during archery, which is doubtful.
This hunt will get my undivided attention. A far cry from last year when I had to juggle four.
This hunt will get my undivided attention. A far cry from last year when I had to juggle four.
SPAZ
Active Member
- Messages
- 579
LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-18 AT 01:28PM (MST)[p]Have been debating on helping the helpless for a week, but against my better judgment, here goes and to anybody else with half a brain and a WY 87 deer permit..
The first great buck I saw "right here" run off the highway into unit 87 was in August of 2000, a massive 200+ nontypical. When crossing the bridge ever since, I always remember that huge buck. A week ago Friday, when approaching the same bridge at 10PM , there was a deer along the road. I locked them up, dug out my binos and watched him in the headlights as he stood "deer in the headlights" crossed and went right into unit 87. 25" spread, great mass and deep forks, approaching 180 on the frame with big inline cheater on his right G3. You'll know where this buck was, and might be, if you're standing in a restroom crapper with more graffiti than anywhere else, in a gas station that likely could be featured on a B grade horror flick.. in unit 87, and that buck would be 1.7 miles SE of you (roughly 240 degrees).
Look closely at the Graffiti, "ZIM wasn't here. '18"
The first great buck I saw "right here" run off the highway into unit 87 was in August of 2000, a massive 200+ nontypical. When crossing the bridge ever since, I always remember that huge buck. A week ago Friday, when approaching the same bridge at 10PM , there was a deer along the road. I locked them up, dug out my binos and watched him in the headlights as he stood "deer in the headlights" crossed and went right into unit 87. 25" spread, great mass and deep forks, approaching 180 on the frame with big inline cheater on his right G3. You'll know where this buck was, and might be, if you're standing in a restroom crapper with more graffiti than anywhere else, in a gas station that likely could be featured on a B grade horror flick.. in unit 87, and that buck would be 1.7 miles SE of you (roughly 240 degrees).
Look closely at the Graffiti, "ZIM wasn't here. '18"
>Have been debating on helping the
>helpless for a week, but
>against my better judgment, here
>goes and to anybody else
>with half a brain and
>a WY 87 deer permit..
>
>
>The first great buck I saw
>"right here" run off the
>highway into unit 87 was
>in August of 2000, a
>massive 200+ nontypical. When crossing
>the bridge ever since, I
>always remember that huge buck.
> A week ago Friday,
>when approaching the same bridge
>at 10PM , there was
>a deer along the road.
>I locked them up, dug
>out my binos and watched
>him in the headlights as
>he stood "deer in the
>headlights" crossed and went right
>into unit 87. 25"
>spread, great mass and deep
>forks, approaching 180 on the
>frame with big inline cheater
>on his right G3.
>You'll know where this buck
>was, and might be, if
>you're standing in a restroom
>crapper with more graffiti than
>anywhere else, in a gas
>station that likely could be
>featured on a B grade
>horror flick.. in unit 87,
>and that buck would be
>1.7 miles SE of you
>(roughly 240 degrees).
>
>Look closely at the Graffiti, "ZIM
>wasn't here. '18"
I'd sure like to see all of those 340" to 350" bulls that Zim has killed and I'll bet everyone else would too. How about posting them up here for all of us to drool over Zim old buddy seeing as you pass that kind up now on your hunts!
>helpless for a week, but
>against my better judgment, here
>goes and to anybody else
>with half a brain and
>a WY 87 deer permit..
>
>
>The first great buck I saw
>"right here" run off the
>highway into unit 87 was
>in August of 2000, a
>massive 200+ nontypical. When crossing
>the bridge ever since, I
>always remember that huge buck.
> A week ago Friday,
>when approaching the same bridge
>at 10PM , there was
>a deer along the road.
>I locked them up, dug
>out my binos and watched
>him in the headlights as
>he stood "deer in the
>headlights" crossed and went right
>into unit 87. 25"
>spread, great mass and deep
>forks, approaching 180 on the
>frame with big inline cheater
>on his right G3.
>You'll know where this buck
>was, and might be, if
>you're standing in a restroom
>crapper with more graffiti than
>anywhere else, in a gas
>station that likely could be
>featured on a B grade
>horror flick.. in unit 87,
>and that buck would be
>1.7 miles SE of you
>(roughly 240 degrees).
>
>Look closely at the Graffiti, "ZIM
>wasn't here. '18"
I'd sure like to see all of those 340" to 350" bulls that Zim has killed and I'll bet everyone else would too. How about posting them up here for all of us to drool over Zim old buddy seeing as you pass that kind up now on your hunts!
jm77
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,509
>LAST EDITED ON Aug-27-18
>AT 01:28?PM (MST)
>
>Have been debating on helping the
>helpless for a week, but
>against my better judgment, here
>goes and to anybody else
>with half a brain and
>a WY 87 deer permit..
>
>
>The first great buck I saw
>"right here" run off the
>highway into unit 87 was
>in August of 2000, a
>massive 200+ nontypical. When crossing
>the bridge ever since, I
>always remember that huge buck.
> A week ago Friday,
>when approaching the same bridge
>at 10PM , there was
>a deer along the road.
>I locked them up, dug
>out my binos and watched
>him in the headlights as
>he stood "deer in the
>headlights" crossed and went right
>into unit 87. 25"
>spread, great mass and deep
>forks, approaching 180 on the
>frame with big inline cheater
>on his right G3.
>You'll know where this buck
>was, and might be, if
>you're standing in a restroom
>crapper with more graffiti than
>anywhere else, in a gas
>station that likely could be
>featured on a B grade
>horror flick.. in unit 87,
>and that buck would be
>1.7 miles SE of you
>(roughly 240 degrees).
>
>Look closely at the Graffiti, "ZIM
>wasn't here. '18"
Those are ghosts of past great bucks you are seeing SPAZ, as the genetics were ruined in the eighties from two years of 4 point restrictions. Late night driving will do strange things to your consciousness, but I know where that crapper is and will send a good buddy who drew 87 out there to verify your vision.
>AT 01:28?PM (MST)
>
>Have been debating on helping the
>helpless for a week, but
>against my better judgment, here
>goes and to anybody else
>with half a brain and
>a WY 87 deer permit..
>
>
>The first great buck I saw
>"right here" run off the
>highway into unit 87 was
>in August of 2000, a
>massive 200+ nontypical. When crossing
>the bridge ever since, I
>always remember that huge buck.
> A week ago Friday,
>when approaching the same bridge
>at 10PM , there was
>a deer along the road.
>I locked them up, dug
>out my binos and watched
>him in the headlights as
>he stood "deer in the
>headlights" crossed and went right
>into unit 87. 25"
>spread, great mass and deep
>forks, approaching 180 on the
>frame with big inline cheater
>on his right G3.
>You'll know where this buck
>was, and might be, if
>you're standing in a restroom
>crapper with more graffiti than
>anywhere else, in a gas
>station that likely could be
>featured on a B grade
>horror flick.. in unit 87,
>and that buck would be
>1.7 miles SE of you
>(roughly 240 degrees).
>
>Look closely at the Graffiti, "ZIM
>wasn't here. '18"
Those are ghosts of past great bucks you are seeing SPAZ, as the genetics were ruined in the eighties from two years of 4 point restrictions. Late night driving will do strange things to your consciousness, but I know where that crapper is and will send a good buddy who drew 87 out there to verify your vision.
Wyoming Hunting Guides & Outfitters
Urge 2 Hunt
We focus on trophy elk, mule deer, antelope and moose hunts and take B&C bucks most years.
