Land Sale?

Kwalk,

You said, " I don't doubt that many of the lawmakers have decent intentions, but they are short-sighted and it is not hyperbole to say that they absolutely endanger our heritage as public land hunters."

I can understand why you would feel that way. What I don't understand is how you can feel that way about state politicians but seem to be completely comfortable with federal politicians.
 
shotgun1

You said, "2lumpy, you are Utarded through and through.
Like I said before Ted Bundy could win an election in Utah as long as he has an "R" next to his name thanks to the likes of Lumpy. Who's narrow minded?"

That may be true. The only problem I have is that people seem to forget that it is equally true about people with a "D" behind their names in places like New York and California.
 
eelgrass,

You said, " As long as the money printing press doesn't break down more than 1/2 hr./month I think the future of Federal public land hunting looks bright."

Thank you. Finally, someone speaks the truth. All this talk about Utah's inability to manage the lands, but you're the first with the balls to admit the truth about the federal financing pyramid.
 
Kwalk,

You said, "I understand what he was saying. He said in no way whatsoever would he ever vote for a non-republican. I understand the hesitancy, especially on a lot of social issues that I find reprehensible.

The more I try to be objective about politics, however, I realize that there are people on both sides of the aisle doing a lot of good.....and conversely a lot of bad. On this particular issue I believe the Republicans have it wrong, and therefore I'm willing to support someone who will look out for our interests. Look at Martin Heinrich(D) in NM for example...

It may not be this way for everyone, but aside from my family and religion, the ability to decompress and enjoy public land for all types of recreation is as important to me on an individual level as a a great number of other issues that are sticking points against supporting someone with a D next to their name.

Am I saying we should all go vote Democrat across the board? Absolutely not. I think all it takes is one look at California to realize both extremes are equally terrifying. As sportsmen we need to take an honest look at each issue and decide who to support based on our priorities. I would wager that most here highly value the ability to utilize public land for hunting."

A fairly reasonable post. There is nobody happier than the democrats to see all the "R" bashing. I'm sure they are having visions of wolves dancing in the heads about it all. The sad part is it is not a stretch to get the vast majority of republicans to sign off on keeping these lands public. The absolute certainty that so many seem to have about the public lands being auctioned off the second the state gets their hands on them would seem to have it's roots in a democratic strategy to pit hunters against each other thus gaining more democratic votes to further introduce wolves. But of course you would have to believe in a grand conspiracy theory to believe that, and we all know that there aren't any such things is politics.
 
sageadvice,

You said, "In all fairness to 2Lumpy, he has stated several times in other threads that he is in favor of access for sportsmen and how the lands would be used. It's just who would have access and who controls the usage that has me worried."

That's a fair statement. What I don't understand is how so many hunters are ignorant about the threat that the federal government is to access. Some people seem to believe that if we just sit back and let the feds roll, everything will be honky dory.
 
eelgrass,

I'm glad someone finally found some "the feds are your friends and would never, ever even consider restricting you rights to public lands in any way" antidote. Can you please replicate the antidote and inject it via the internet for some of these hunters which seem to think the feds are inherently benevolent.
 
wiley,

Thank you for your exhaustive list of democratic accomplishments for hunters. It is truly inspiring- especially the drop of the DC gun ban which I believe was actually a court decision which overturned legislation by one of the most democratically controlled areas of the entire country.
 
pipe,

You said, "The sad thing about lumpy is that he is getting from both ends, not only is he getting it in his face, he is also getting it from behind.. When someone is that blindly partisan they are easy to take advantage of, reminds of middle eastern extremism. "

Thank you for that very vivid description which, in my opinion, is exactly how the wacko environmentalists are giving it to you preying on your love of nature to get you to support their agenda all the while "giving it to you from behind" as they introduce wolves and restrict access.

And if anything even remotely resembles a radical middle eastern extremism religion, it's the extremist wacko environmental quasi-religion.
 
cannonball,

"Holding on to the right rod" is not an easy thing to do. Very seldom can you take what people say at face value no matter what political party they subscribe to. Do your own research,and be very careful about mistaking friendship for trustworthiness.
 
elkfromabove,

You said, "In making our decision, there are lots of other things to consider and most of them have also been brought up, but it all boils down to how high your outdoor activities are on your list of priorities."

That is simply an untrue statement. It just assumes that if you value your outdoor activities highly you should be against the land transfer.

I am an avid outdoorsman and, next to my religion and family, value my outdoor activities very highly. In fact, it is the priority that I put on these activities that motivates me to push for the land transfer, because I believe the future of hunting is threatened by the very radical environmental nature of federal land management philosophies. I think the current direction we are headed with federal land management policy could very well end up taking us, through restricted access, to essentially the same place all of these land transfer haters think state management will take us, because public lands without access are not public lands in my opinion.
 
>cannonball,
>
>"Holding on to the right rod"
>is not an easy thing
>to do. Very seldom
>can you take what people
>say at face value no
>matter what political party they
>subscribe to. Do your
>own research,and be very careful
>about mistaking friendship for trustworthiness.
>

Ya!! I know. It's like being between the devil and the deep blue sea. The Fed's might just sell their land to the Chinese. They own us anyway, but history tells what the State of Utah will do. Most of the old government land where the "NO TRESSPASSING" signs now shine bright is that land that used to be owned by the State Of Utah. The Fed's just close the roads and they may shut down hunting by executive order, but at least you be able to walk on it. I can't do that on parcels of land by Fishlake or on the Monroe. Both places I used to hunt deer. Now Privatized State Land.

If you are a legislator, attorney, millionaire, rancher, Californian who just sold his Cali. house or anyone else with a lot of money you would have it made, BUT THAT ABOUT THE REST OF US. This lottery to me is to keep the Federal lands Federal. This is not clearcut, but we do have options, so fight for them. Which ever way it may go, just might be a mistake, but I have not heard anything that will change my direction.

Then again, I think our state government is giving to many incentives to businesses. If you are the fastest growing state in the Union something is wrong. I've been to Southern California and it is a cesspool as far as I'm concerned. Put 25 million people in Utah and watch you way of living take a nosedive.
 
Thanks very much for that link Joey. That's a great article. The end pretty well sums it up:

Montana Sen. Brad Hamlett, D-Cascade, who served on a committee that studied federal land management in Montana following the 2013 Legislature, said transferring public land is going nowhere.

He advocates more cooperation between local and state governments with federal agencies on restoration and access projects.

"It's obvious to me we need to get the different governing entities to talk each other, and not be hung up on absolute control," Hamlett said.

"It got polarized," Hamlett added of public land discussions. "It's either, 'We're going to sell off the Rocky Mountains, or, 'We're never going to cut another tree in the forest.' When it gets polarized, it's hard to have a discussion that solves anything."
-------------------------------------------------------------
That's what's frustrating to me. Our public lands used to be managed as multiple use. I don't know all the issues on all the public land in the western US, obviously. I've watched our National Forest in Northern California go from a vibrant multiple use forest to a "hand off", let nature take its course policy. People put out of work, a tremendous loss of tax base, a cut to services in local communities because of it. They want no logging, no cattle grazing, no mining. People want these policies and then cry because they're broke and there are no jobs.

Even wildlife managers are knocked down here in California when laws that prohibit the hunting of mountain lions and such are passed.

I know I'm biased, because of my life time connection to the timber industry and my love of hunting the healthy blacktail herds that used to inhabit cut over land, along with large coveys of mountain and valley quail, squirrels, ruffed grouse etc.

Other, non hunting public have just as much say as I do over public lands. So be it. I guess I'm thankful that I had many years of great hunting, provided for my family, had a sense of pride and belonging, paid a few taxes, and in my heart knew that I was making a life in and off of the land that is so much a vital part of my existence.

I would feel a little better if, just one time, I could spot one person out in the forest enjoying a spotted owl. Just one time.

Eel

It's written in the good Book that we'll never be asked to take more than we can. Sounds like a good plan, so bring it on!
 
>elkfromabove,
>
>You said, "In making our decision,
>there are lots of other
>things to consider and most
>of them have also been
>brought up, but it all
>boils down to how high
>your outdoor activities are on
>your list of priorities."
>
>That is simply an untrue statement.
> It just assumes that
>if you value your outdoor
>activities highly you should be
>against the land transfer.
>
>I am an avid outdoorsman and,
>next to my religion and
>family, value my outdoor activities
>very highly. In fact,
>it is the priority that
>I put on these activities
>that motivates me to push
>for the land transfer, because
>I believe the future of
>hunting is threatened by the
>very radical environmental nature of
>federal land management philosophies.
>I think the current direction
>we are headed with federal
>land management policy could very
>well end up taking us,
>through restricted access, to essentially
>the same place all of
>these land transfer haters think
>state management will take us,
>because public lands without access
>are not public lands in
>my opinion.

After re-reading it, I'll have to admit that it was worded in such a way as to be obviously biased against the transfer. Sometimes I need to be more neutral. But I think my point still stands. If outdoors sports are a high priority, we need to more diligently consider the possible consequences of either outcome and do it from as many logical angles as possible. You've done that and so have I and we've come to different conclusions. But many times those conclusions come mostly from emotions and a like or dislike of the poster, presenter, organization or government entity and I was hoping to get people to avoid much of that.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-15 AT 04:27PM (MST)[p]Yea, eel, you get me a picture of one of those, "endangered" folks watch'en a speckled owl and I'll get you one watch'en a soon to be "endangered" sage grouse. Neither of us better expect a trade anytime soon.

Montana Sen. Brad Hamlett, D-Cascade might believe a land transfer is going nowhere, but just cuz he thinks that don't make it necessarily so. I'm sure his side of the aisle see it that way, ask a R from Montana what he sees.

As I've said repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, repeatedly, I don't want a lands transfer. I want the Feds to quit letting the greenies screwing with the system, and get back to what it was designed and set up to do. And while they're at it, equalize national "welfare contributions" (as TriState) calls them, to the States, thereby increasing State income, so the States and the Nation can keep the damn thing upright, so everyone that wants to, can use the lands, as they were intended.

DC
 
2lumpy

I agree with you 100% in going back to managing lands the way they used to be I.e multiple use. I have said for the last 10 years that if the Fed's can't doing anything productive with the public lands someday they would just get rid of them.

Now if there was a discussion on how to make these land management changes while keeping the lands under federal control I think most interested stakeholders could even gain the support of sportsmen.

I have sent several e-mails to all the congressmen in my state asking them to work on implementing these changes rather transfer the land.

1. Modify NEPA to make it less litigious so land managers can actually effect changes for good or bad. Most federal land managers get tired of having everything tied up in court.

2. Change NEPA and federal policy so that the "environuts" have to pay there attorneys fees even if they win rather having land agencies have there pay attorney's fees. This would probably cut environmental lawsuits down by half. Plus some "enviro" organization s can stop profiting off this.

3.Create a federal fire budget that is separate from the land agencies operational budget. This would allow land agencies to better manage and invest in public land rather than be a federal fire service.

4. Everyone has heard this term before COLLABORATION. Work with state partners more on local land issues.

The politicians have created this mess by neglecting public lands policy and allowing special interests to run our lands.

Transferring these issues and liabilities to the state's is not going to improve land management. It will only lead to further decay of our national treasure. States don't t have near the financial resources.

The American Lands Council (ALC) is advocatingfor the transfer of lands to the management by the state's but want the Fed's to keep the financial burden of fighting fires. It's funny how the extreme right nut wingers hate the federal government but still want them to pick up the tab.

Do you really think the Fed's are going to keep out of the land managment politics as long as they can dangle a financial carrot.

The only way to take away the federal governments role in land management would be sale.
 
Most certainly I want the Federal Government to stay in control, if they would do a good job.

Some people want Federal control because it's only one huge agency to deal with when it come time to sue, or at least dictate how the land will be managed. It scares them to death thinking that their 300 million acre play ground might be broken up into uncontrollable parcels.

Think about it. You have one agency to deal with. The way things are headed, it's not that inconceivable to come to the conclusion that under an ideal natural environment, there are no excess animals for hunters to harvest. The true natural world balances itself very well without human hunters. It's been true for millions of years.

Please tell me why your "right to hunt" is set in stone.

It's easy to get on board the effort to run off the logger, the rancher, etc. thinking it's protecting your hunting. They just haven't gotten to you yet. I GUARANTEE it! They don't like you any more than they like Exxon or Bundy.

Eel

It's written in the good Book that we'll never be asked to take more than we can. Sounds like a good plan, so bring it on!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-15 AT 10:10PM (MST)[p]Flatlaner, I pretty much agree, right down your list. Including the paradox regarding folks that hate the Fed and at the same time demanding services from it. Reminds me of ranchers/farmers (many in my own family) and school teachers,( many in my own family) who rail against government of any shape or size, and then b!tch constantly about the size of their subsidizes, price of their milk, the size of their salaries, and their benefits packages. Come on people ................. I can not, no matter how hard I try, understand that kind of logic............oh, lets see, maybe that's because there's no logic there to understand.....it's madness.

Listen, I hate big government, I hate big "bad" government worse, we've had plenty of big "bad" government for a good lone time. Both parties are big and "bad", at the Federal level and some misbehave terribly at the State level as well, including my Republican brothers in Utah. Big government is a blight on the original American experiment. The more cocaine you take, the more cocaine you need and want.

Because I believe that, does not mean I'm opposed to national public multiple use lands, any more than I'm opposed to a national military, a national Interstate State highway system, a national Foreign Affairs Dept. etc. etc. There are some Federal systems that work and some that are down right necessary, for national security etc. That was the reason the 13 fought together and stuck together, though it was difficult for those highly committed to liberty and independent, newly free men, to agree with Washington and others, when they argued that as "united states" we needed "some" Federal systems, to keep the "United", united.

I believe the public lands system is one of those and I willing to add it to the list of good government and wish it would stay Fed.....................because "all Americans" can then benefit from it, and "all American's can each pay a "little" to have it available. BUT IT MUST STAY MULTIPLE USE, or I'm out.

Now, if the Feds will keep it multiple use, like it was before the Fed began restricting access, and "taking it" by allowing the greenies to close access due to "stripped owls" and "prairie dogs", I'm for keeping it under Federal management. I'd rather take the small payment made by every American to keep it viable, as long as all Americans and the Fed understand the payment amount is not static. As the States' needs grow, as the value of the land, in those State's that own it grows, from it's natural recourse and future production that may come from these lands. The States own the land, they "must" be appropriately compensated, so those States can afford to make this land avail to the rest of the country. If that's what we're talking about, under continued Fed management, I'm your huckleberry.

If the Feds and the rest of America aren't willing to step up, pay the bill, even as it gets continually larger, maintain the multiple use concept, as is was original designed, then I'm out, and I'll take my chances with the State managing it.

Why? The answer to why is, why would I?

If the Feds continue to lock me out over sage grouse, snails, tweety birds, ground squirrels, or for "any other reason" be it red rocks, deep holes in the ground, or bubbling mud pots, it may as well belong to the King of Siam or TriState's wealthy African hunting buddies. Given to the greenies or sold to Warren Buffet makes not one bit off difference to me. If I can't park my a$$ on it, at will, it's of "ZERO INTEREST TO ME" I don't care how big the bucks that live on it are, nor do I care if I can gather up thousands of dollars to hunt one of them. Once those bucks go under either system, they're either amusement park features or live stock too me.

It makes no difference to me how big the deer in Yellowstone National Park or on the Alton Ranch are, those deer are worthless and yes, "VALUELESS" to me. Not a damn bit different than looking at a good quarter horse in a pasture. I can see deer like that in a zoo anytime I want, which is not very damn often.

Gone is gone, by bird, by train or by airplane. When it comes to multiple use and the hunting, fishing, etc that goes with it I won't tolerate gone, unless I'm force to, no matter who takes it, greenies, antis, Ds or Rs. Like the chairman of my fan club, piper, says, their all trying stick'en in old 2lumpy right now. True that is boy's, but................it ain't just me that's take'n it front and back.

Can ya feel it now?

DC
 
I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.

If the lands are transferred to the states and they are less accessible,(which has been proven to be the case) that's OK with you? Would those public lands that are not accessible be more accessible if the state owned them? My guess,is as long as the state made money off those lands it wouldn't matter to them. If they didn't they would be sold.
 
I get tired of the childish worn out rhetoric by Wildman and a few others. everyone is locked out, no access, bla bla bla. The feds love wolves and on and on.

Lots of stupid statements taken from immature and emotional radicals in my opinion, it's gets old.

The truth is that your "Hunting" is going to decline, and it has everything to do with the constant desire to grow the economy and the population.

The developement of resources and the taming of the land, and of course motorized access everywhere, this is going to ruin everything long before Wolves or wilderness and environmentalists and the other laughable arguments I always hear.

Wilderness designation is part of the multiple use concept, and it's a very important of keeping some of the best parts of America intact for future generations, that includes quality hunting experiences.
 
Has everyone @ Monster Muley's signed this petition yet? The last time I looked they are still short of the 10,000 goal needed.
Let's go TEAM!

Thanks for your time
Joe

"Sometimes you do things wrong for so long you
think their right" - 2001
"I can't argue with honesty" - 2005
-Joe E Sikora
 

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