Kirt Darner 210+ B&C

[fullcry]

Who is David Long?Im sure he's killed some big deer if hes been mentioned, but so have a lot of guys that choose not to write books about it...He didnt change the face of Trophy Hunting for big deer.No offence BigMuley but it doesnt sound like you have been hunting very long... Or at least understand the evolution
of modern trophy hunting...

 

[BCBOY]

When I was a kid I thought the world of Darner. He was the first one to instill the passion for Muleys in me. I've actually been a defender here on MM over the years but it's really getting old. The amount of crap that this guy seems to get into really makes a guy wonder. The latest round makes me think this guy isn't all that smart either. Stolen Sheep and Stolen Elk. Hmmm, you would think with the amount of crap he's been in over the years, he'd have learned to stay clear of it like the plague. Sooo, yes, in my mind I question the authenticity of all that he's done. It's only natural.

Those that think this guy has been good for the sport really have to take a hard look at what this guy is all about. Definately nowhere even close to the same league as Fred Bear. Fred was a true Sportsman. A gentleman of gentleman. Someone who loved the sport so much, he would give and give and give. Darner seems to be more focused on the "me" aspect and that pushed him to do what he has done. Those of you that think it wasn't a business for him are sadly mistaken too. The Remington endorsments, the magazine articles, the guiding business, the selling of forestry maps with hidey holes marked on them ect... was a way for him to market himself.

When it comes to heros in the hunting world, I think that the David Long's of the world are the guys that learned from the Fred Bear's of the world rather than the Kirt Darner's. Sportsmanship is sooo much more important than getting fame from killing bucks at any cost.

 

[fin little]

Give Darner credit, He was way ahead of his time. He was the first professional mule deer hunter. He was the first to exploit big bucks to make big bucks. Many have followed in his foot steps but he was the inspiration. He was the beginning of endorsements, exclusives and celebrity appearances , none of witch does much for the image of hunting IMO. Its obvious though by this thread , he has quite a cult following. Can I get an AMEN.

 

[Skunkterd]

Mossback started his guided profession working for Kirt! "Food for thought"

 

[Archer16]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-10-06 AT 10:42PM (MST)[p]I know Kirt Darner did a lot of cool things. But he messed up when he got greedy and poached. Guys, im just going with my gut feeling. Im sure ill get slammed for this, but i dont care. Some will agree with me (hopefully)

 

[BANNOCK1877]

Regardless of whether Kirt or Rich actually wrote the book, "Kirt's" book is THE best Muley read out there.

How many of you (who don't already have the book) would buy it if it came out again as a re-issued edition?

It is still the best 'how-to' hunting book out there.

It beats books who waste space with mudane equipment recomendations and camping gear packing lists--- or take the easy way out and just re-hash other hunters stories.


Let's hope there's still something new to be written down in the next generation of mule deer hunting novels..........

 

[Muley73]

fullcry,
I agree that there are alot of guys out there that have killed more big bucks than some of the hunters writing books. I also personally know some that chose not to share those bucks and the stories about them with the public. One if the main reasons for this is the exact reason we battle on this post. It does not matter if they are proven of wrong doing or not, they will be judged by other hunters. Even if they are never charged with any hunting volations the hunting public always has a group that will question and pass judgement.

I know of one hunter in southern Utah that has killed eight bucks of 35 inches and two that are over 40. All in the past 25 years on public general tags. He has never even taken pictures or had them mounted because he does not want the negative attention he feels it may bring. He has said that there is no reason to risk turning something he loves into something negative. What a shame that we all miss out on these tremdous deer!

 

[donedeal]

It's very clear to me that what has happened to Kirt Darner effects all those who love buck hunting, so this is my opinion.

I guess what I'd want to know is, where are all the witness?s to these crimes that Kirt and friends allegedly committed, I ain?t heard one word about them, did any one see them remove the elk from public property and move them onto private ground..? Were they caught in the act..?.

Most of you all should know, how stuff like this starts, just one jealous person reporting a suspicion act or even a fish cop with a vendetta is all it take?s, he could be sincere about his suspicions but he can also be sincerely wrong!

I have a friend that's a very successful financial advisor, his best advise is ? find just one thing that your good at, perfect it and then market it, that's just what Kirt did, he perfected buck hunting, while most of us were in diapers he was learning how to hunt mature mule deer bucks.

As far as some joker shooting a gun out of Kirt's window at a decoy, how fast can you stop some one from pulling the trigger, faster then ?hey dum-arse don't shoot??BOOM! Too late ain?t it, then Kirt feeling embarrassed and on top of that his reputation is on the line, he did what MOST not all humans would do, PPP-PANICED, sounds much like the Divenci code to me, pure speculation.

And it's a Donedeal?

 

[fullcry]

Muley, great post.Years ago i put several animals in a new 'no fences magazine'.Im sitting in a resturant,and my name comes up.500 miles from home.I ate breakfast listening to 4 guys debate if i was a poacher or not...Incredibly interesting...I decided never again...Darner started a craze that can never be matched.Ever.Guys did things back then that you cant do anymore.He started a spark for many guys who dreamed of big deer.Has he done somethings wrong,no doubt in my mind.Has he been harrassed absolutly.His biggest offence to me isnt the possiblity of poaching or taking credit for things he did/didnt do.People do all kinds of dumb things when they are suddenly in the spotlight.Whos to say what each of us would do if we came into sudden fame.The biggest tragidy from all this is he sparked such an interest in big deer that it really has turned everything so ugly.Intence pressure both summer scouting in the high country and competition for the tags that were unknown...
But the worst point of this is the introduction of somthing called PROFIT.The introduction of big money 150000+ somthing for a deer tag.Locking up of almost all private land by guides[like myself].I think the reason guys who defend Darner are so defiant is because he was a Hero to many and know body likes their Heros brought down.Know matter who it is,a small petty group of people are always going to try to discredit those who achieve more than them... We all wish our Heros were perfect,but the truth is only one person ever was and look what happened to him...P.S. I hope knowbody reads this until Monday,we all should be doing somthing with our familys...

 

[bubbas]

Give me a break. Show some back bone. You shouldn't defend your hero when they do wrong stuff just because they're your hero. Just like you or I shouldn't be defended for our wrong actions. They should be held to the same standard. He needs to quit trying to squirm out of stuff and confess and make ammends, then maybe I would have some respect for him. It doesn't matter if he's a good hunter, I'm sure he is but the guy has done wrong stuff and he should be held accountable for it.

 

[HunterHarry]

RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

I think some of you may have misunderstood my input in this whole Darner ordeal.
I bought his book when it first came out and like everyone else, was blown away.
Kirt Darner is undoubtedly a great hunter with a wealth of knowledge regarding trophy muleys.
I think the fame & fortune thing got to him, the book, the seminars, the hunting consultant stuff and he was just about to close a deal with Cabela's with a Kirt Darner clothing line, when things got ugly, but that is only my personal opinion.
If you go back through my posts regarding Kirt Darner, you will never see me call him a "poacher".
I simply have never seen FACTS that back up that statement.
What I have heard is the talk from B&C officials & HIGHLY respected individuals in the trophy hunting community that he claimed to have killed bucks that someone actually did.
NOT ALL of his monsters, but his credibility was shot when that came into question.
The people analyzing these bucks were not just your average hunters, but guys that are experts on scoring and look at trophy bucks constantly.
One rack in question is the one on the cover on his book, a highly distinctive nontypical, that mached point for point with another buck taken many years prior.
I then heard the Jaguar rumor also.
Then the shooting of the robo buck by the guy he was guiding.
Now this latest episode with the sheep heads and the "stolen elk" and then there is Rich Larocco's story.
I do agree that there are a lot of jealous people out there that love to drag a guy through the mud because of their success.
I just think there are too many unanswered questions for me to continue to back this guy, This whole conversation reminds me of the Barry Bonds debacle.
If guys like these ICONS are indeed innocent of all charges brought against them there is damn little that could undo the truth if they are indeed clean.
Only time will tell...
HH

 

[UThunting]

RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

Well after a hour of reading all these posts I will say a couple things

1. Some of you really hate Darner

2. Some of you really love Darner

3. Some of you know the facts

4. Some of you dont know anything

5. Some of you that love Darner will say anything to prove him not guilty

6. Some of you that hate Darner will say anything to prove him guilty

7. I know very little if nothing about Darner other then what I have read here and would haffta think this guy is by no means a angel and has pushed the limits in many cases and has gotten a lot of Fish & Game to watch him like a hawk and gotten nailed for every wrong move he has made

8. I wish I had his book

9. You might hate him you might love him but you should all have some respect not for him but for the animals he has taken there some great ones and it gets every one of you that love muleys to drool

It sounds like to me Kirt Darner loved hunting like most of us and in his day he was one of the best ever on muledeer if not the best ever but with time he has gotten a name for himself and has tryed to live up to that name and has went to the dark side to get what he was after if that is true he will get what is comming to him and no one should feel bad for him when it happens

The Kirt Darner feasco has made all of us think and that is a good thing

If you noticed I said Kirt Darner Loved not Loves hunting
as if he did love hunting he would not be found in so many questinable casses it is a money and prestige thing for Darner
so I do not know how anyone can say he did not do it for the money like the Eastmans have but thats another story

If he is not found Guilty even those that think the world of him should be able to see threw a lot of the B.S

But that dont mean they cant still think the world of him as at one time he was the MAN OF MULEYS but he has tarnished that with the crap he and some of the people around him have pulled

I wish I could go back in his prime days and learn what he knew about deer hunting I am shure it would make me a better hunter in a lot of ways but times have changed and getting onto some of the places then to hunt only costed a hand shake or a few bucks but know it cost into the thousands of dollers, we in most casses cant hunt in Aug, Sept, Nov and Dec with a gen tag and believe it or not I think Trophy Muledeer have gotten a hole hell of a lot harder to harvest I know Darner has killed some very nice muledeer in the past few years but I think he has crossed a line to do it and that is how he has gotten them or atleast like a post I read he has been on some very good places that cost BIG $$$$ and I am shure that there are a lot of you that could kill monster muleys if only you could draw or afford the tag

Good luck all in the 2006 season and I hope you all get your chances at some very nice BUCKS & BULLS

P.S Like I said at first I do not know Darner I dont know if he has done any of the things said but these are my feelings


UThunting
Clynt L Citte
Willard Ut

 

[prohunter]

is their or were their any other bucks in question. i have a B&C book from the 80's and not all of his bucks in there say he shot them. some say picked up or killed by someone else. Where does everyone get off that he claimed to shot them all?
ProHunter
GOD BLESS AMERICA!

 

[eelgrass]

I bought "How To Find Giant Bucks" when it first came out in 1983.I Paid like $22 or so. I've read it at least 5 times. One of the best books I'll ever read. No regrets in that regard. It's a really well made book and still looks like new.

Now I understand that the buck on the cover, which Kirt had entered in B&C, was later proven to have been falsified. Through photographic evidence. There is a photo which shows that the buck was killed by someone else years before. I have not personally seen the photo or examined it. I'll quote Kirt directly from page 26 of his book:

"One year I killed a 39 inch wide monarch within long rifle range of the road, and the next year in the same place I shot a gigantic 38 incher with an incredible non-typical rack. The cover photograph of this book shows me with that second buck."

That would sound like a lie to me. Which would naturally cause one to question his integrity in other matters.

He was never a "God" of any kind to me to begin with so my feelings aren't hurt one way or the other. He certainly would not be the first hunter to have ever lied either. Nor will he be the last. He certainly has used his book to influence a lot of decent people to send him money for his services. In that regard he may have IMPLIED that they were hiring someone other than they actually were. Those are the people I feel sorry for. I know you sign a contract stating no guarentees. You do that with a used car salesman too. Which is how I think of him today. A used car salesman. A very good one!

Steve

 

[bigmuley]

fullcry,

your an idiot if that is what you think! To me it isn't how many big deer you have killed but with what sort of class you have while doing it. Have you seen the newest issue of Eastmans, anyone who has will see what I mean when I say DL has class and lots of it. Nuff Said!!! I have been hunting big deer for a couple decades now so to answer your question yes I have been hunting for some time now. I do fully understand the evolution of trophy hunting as you so passionately speak of. I just don't see Kirt Darner in the equation. I have learned nothing from the man as the people I have learned from have never even heard of your god father. give me a break. I stand behind Co_bucky. If you need a liar and poacher to teach you to hunt deer, you should have given it up years ago. To me it is all about practicality and I don't need some guy that has seen and about to see more trouble for himself to tell me how to do it.

 

[prohunter]

"Now I understand that the buck on the cover, which Kirt had entered in B&C, was later proven to have been falsified. Through photographic evidence. There is a photo which shows that the buck was killed by someone else years before. I have not personally seen the photo or examined it"

eelgrass that is false. B&C claimed it to be killed prior to the 40's and thru scientific tests it was proved to be killed after the 40's. read above posts.
ProHunter
GOD BLESS AMERICA!

 

[theridge]

I'll tell you what is bull s**t..this waiting for the "rest of the story." All I know is that everyone has their opinions and no one knows the truth or facts enough to enlighten us with what that truth actually is. So..IMHO, this Mr. Rich Laroooooccha is keeping us agasp so he can sell more books and periodicals. We should be madder than 77EH and not take it anymore. We want answers not lip service!

 

[fullcry]

big muley,When Darners book came out most people would have said
the same nice stuff about him as you say about this Long guy...
Later you start hearing bad things.Dont be surprize if you hero dosnt have some storys start against him also.Liar and a poacher?
Maybe,but he did teach me alot when his book came out in the eighties...Sorry, if i thought you came off as immature but thats what it come out as unintentional or not...But youve heard the saying'' Opinions are like *holes and you are one,I mean have one..

 

[D13er]

I checked with B&C today and "there have been 2 jaguar skulls entered as cougars" and niether one was entered by Kirt Darner. I apologize for contributing to that story.

JB

"Democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for lunch. Liberty is a well-armed lamb contesting the vote."
--Benjamin Franklin 1759

 

[HunterHarry]

LAST EDITED ON Mar-14-06 AT 04:22AM (MST)[p]My appologoes are also in order for furthering that rumor.
I'd still like to compare that book cover buck with the Arizona buck for myself, I hope someone can come up with a photo.
HH

 

[theridge]

The untrue story is that the buck was shot back in 1968 while Mr. Darner was flying his chute plane going 28 mph. What a buck and what a great shot! Without a doubt mature bucks will grow an additional 22.2% of antler mass per year with the injection of steroids. A helk of alot cheaper than buying a GOV tag!

Waiting for the REST of the STORY.

 

[wetmule]

The buck on the cover of the book was killed by Dean Naylor in Kaibab in the fall of 1948.After returning from WW2 he settled in Phoenix and worked for the phone company earning approx. $32 a month. He and his brother went to Kaibab in 1948 and he was lucky enough to kill the buck with his 30-30. They took the buck to the check station where it drew alot of attention. He was proud of the rack but more glad he had a winters supply of meat.Among the crowd at the check station was staff AZ Republic photographer Charlie Niehuis who shot several rolls of film of the buck. The photos appeared in several publications accompanying Niehuis authored hunting articles including the Sept. 1949 issue of American Rifleman. Also at the check station was Phoenix taxidermist Jeff Sievers who was there to try to drum up business. Mr. Naylor wanted to mount the buck but couldn't afford it and he agreed to sell the rack to Sievers for $5 which was the cost of the Kaibab permit. Sievers took the rack back to PHX. The only official B & C measurer in the state at the time took the rack home to measure it where it was measured and photographed by his dad and also Charlie Niehuis took more pictures of the buck as it was getting measured. It was then returned to Sievers shop where it was mounted to be used for display. In the early to mid seventies the buck was either stolen or somehow disappeared.Coincidently Darner, if I'm not mistaken was attending community college or junior college in PHX at the time.
The story was broken by B&C official measurer Mike Cupell and a subsequent story appeared in the Sept. 1990 Arizona Hunter & Angler magazine detailing all of what I said above with alot more details. All of this is old news and has been beat to death. I have seen the buck in person and I know all the people involved from AZ to CO to Utah and I have seen many of the photographs that were used to break this story and have examined them myself. In my opinion there is absolutely no doubt at all it is the same buck. Every tine, spread, dimple, calcium deposit, blood line, bend, weave, dip in the beam, blemish etc., etc. matches perfectly. There was no doubt in the B & C opinion and there is no doubt in mine. Now people will come on here and tell you that the buck was carbon dated and that Darners buck was wider and blah, blah, blah the defenders will use all possible means to make their case. These bucks antlers are just like fingerprints and visible deer DNA, no two are exactly alike.
You could possibly make the case that a 2,3 or 4 point buck could look almost identical to the next or could look identical to thousands of other bucks, but I imagine even with those very similar bucks no two will ever be exactly the same. Now try to say that a 272 inch monster that is a one in a million trophy, and try to say that there are two of them and they look exactly alike in every possible way. I don't think so.

 

[RLH]

hey wetmule, if your gonna hammer they guy, at least be a little better informed. don't start another jaguar skull deal. Kirt is almost 70 years old. i really don't think he was still at MCC in the 70's. he lived in Az., while he was going to college, in the early 60's. you can say whatever ya want about c-14. i don't know a thing about it. but i do know that a guy that is supposed to be the deadnuts expert on it said, emphatically, that Kirt's rack did not come from the 40's, but instead was from the 70's. he did say that he felt it was from a different year in the 70's than Kirt did. i hafta admit, the racks are remarkably alike. when i first saw the photos, the nobs in the middle of some of the points looked real bad for Kirt. but i wonder why Kirt's has more measurable points and is wider? and the guy that is listed as the owner of the naylor buck is a guy that i know real well and he told me, to my face, no third hand crap, that the naylor buck had been broken and repaired with fiberglass and said that was why Kirt's rack was wider. said when it was repaired the made it wider purposely. (he was also real plain that he thought Kirt had his rack and had a lotta four letter expletives for the guy) well, Kirt's ain't been repaired. and oh yeah, he has photos of it still attached to the head that is still attached to the neck that is still attached to the front quarters, etc., and the back of a 70's model ford pickup. like i say, the racks are spooky similar, but i really believe that they are 2 different, real similar deer. i could be wrong, but i really don't think so. put it this way, if it went to court, with the amount of evidence in Kirt's corner, who would win? the new mex deal is another story. we'll all hafta wait and see how it turns out. and while your at it, why don't any of you Kirt haters ever mention the convicted child molester that really started the whole deal? but c'mon, don't start slingin' stuff that just ain't so.

 

[theridge]

Have you ever noticed the similarities in the Number 1 and 2 non-typicals from MT? These two different bucks(shot by a father and son)many miles apart and in different years are incredidably similar. It's so uncanny. Check it out if you ever get the chance.
Still waiting for the "REST of the STORY"

 

[HunterHarry]

RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

We are getting some very good dialog here.
I heard the story nearly word for word as Wetmule has described from a man I trust that has a lot of weight connected to his name in trophy hunting circles.
If I were a friend of Kirt's I might believe differently.
I also heard a that the photo of Darner with the rack on the dead buck looked kind of funny, like he sawed off the original rack and set in the 272"er in the skull socket.
That is heresay though and really can be taken for what it is worth.
A question that has always plagued me is this.
Ok. I'm Kirt Darner, My claim to fame is the fact that I've LEGALLY taken the most B&C Muleys.
I'm making real good money, Im getting huge notariety, some worship me like a god, because of this accomplishment.
The Boone & Crockett record book is the supreme credential for trophy recognition in many if not most hunters eyes.
If I'm completley innocent of any wrong doing, why would I voluntarily strip my heads out of the institution that is making me a celebrity and a whole bunch of money?
That never made much sense to me that he would kill his cash cow on principle alone.
HH

 

[RLH]

RE: Kirt Darner 210 B&C

harry, i think Kirt felt that b&c was profitting from his heads in their book. he told me he thought the whole fiasco cost him over a million bucks and he didn't want to help b&c in anyway. i imagine re-editing the new books had some expense to it also. he was just trying to get as even as he could. and i have an 8x10 of the photo you're talking about. ain't no way it's been doctored. and this was 25 years before photoshop. i've also seen the rack, unmounted. one other thing, both jeff sievers and the guy i know that used to own the rack told me that they thought that a disgruntled former sievers employee is who took the rack, not Kirt. they both were real positive that Kirt had the naylor buck tho. their assumption was that he bought it from whoever took it. and they really didn't have a good idea how long it had been missing when they noticed it. the only photos i ever saw of the naylor buck were all reverse negative photos too. they were in an old NRA magazine it seems. some sorta old timey huntin' rag anyway. same ones that cuppell and others used in their articles. another thing i've always wondered about is this, Kirt wrote this book, or at least had it written, whatever, he knew it was gonna be a good seller. why would he put a great big photo of this buck right on the cover, when he'd taken bucks just as impressive that he could document real well, when he had to have known that someone would notice it, if he had aquired it in some way other than shooting it himself? the same buck was in the remington adds he made. and then there's the c-14 deal. folks'll believe what they. i happen to be in the minority opinion on this deal. and i worked real hard to get my opinion.

 

[montanamuley85]

I was thinking the exact same thing, theridge. You can check out the story and photos in Jack Atcheson Sr.'s book, Hunting Adventures Worldwide.

"...and now it's time for me to go, the autumn moon lights my way..." -Led Zeppelin

 

[fullcry]

What does Laracco have to hide,that he can't finish his story?
Did he realize he only has an opinion,no facts...