Interesting Wolf Facts

ALL of my wolf kills have been legal!!!! I waited for a long time for legal killing!!! But I am making up for lost time now!!! I would post pictures but I am convinced buzz would send his wolf hippy/lovers to my house to burn it down...
 
Topgun wins!
I don't know what he wins but I'm sure it will be good.

The "debate" has been heated at times but there's also been some interesting information provided. One thing that we can always count on; any position can be justified with another "scientific" study!

Still, I'm not anti-wolf but I don't like the negative impact. The States are, should and will manage wolf numbers to the best of their ability but I feel it is still too little.

Best,
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-06-14 AT 02:10PM (MST)[p]>Topgun wins!
>I don't know what he wins
>but I'm sure it will
>be good.
>
>The "debate" has been heated at
>times but there's also been
>some interesting information provided. One
>thing that we can always
>count on; any position can
>be justified with another "scientific"
>study!
>
>Still, I'm not anti-wolf but I
>don't like the negative impact.
>The States are, should and
>will manage wolf numbers to
>the best of their ability
>but I feel it is
>still too little.
>
>Best,
>Zeke



***I would agree 100% with that last comment Zeke, especially in some areas where they have decimated ungulate populations. Unfortunately politics still plays a big role in this issue and it will be the same way with the potential Grizzly delisting now being discussed. Oh, but wait because we can't take any Grizzlies due to the shortage of pine cones a few of them eat.
 
I agree Buzz comes off as a Buzz kill.

Let wolf run the place....he is awesome to read.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Hey Buzz,

Butch Otter agrees your wrong about the wolves!! He just allocated 2 million for wolf control in Idaho. Fire up the helo's! Butch is the governor in case you were not tracking on that...

It is real easy these days proving your a$$ wrong again and AGAIN about wolves...
 
Hey wolfhunter,

Would you consider Doug Smith a peer reviewed scientist?

Just curious:

http://www.mtpioneer.com/2014-January-Top-Yellowstone-Expert.html

For the record, for the 100th time, I have NO problem with legally hunting wolves and keeping their numbers at the established population objectives to keep them off the list. I grew up trapping, and took every furbearer in the State of Montana except Wolverine.

Bobcats, marten, coyote, fox, beaver, otter, muskrat, mink, fisher, and one of the last legally taken lynx in the State of Montana.

I purchase wolf, bear, and lion tags every year and have shot lions and bears several times.

For clarity, and in fairness, I'm just not a mouth-breathing idiot redneck like you regarding wolves. I dont run around quoting a bunch of bullchit from Toby Bridges, Jim Beers, and the like. I dont buy the "non-native species", I dont buy the "sport killing", the wolves carry tape-worm and give it to people, wolves kill people all the time, the wolves ate all the elk, and all the other pure propoganda bullchit thats repeated by people like you.

I dont spread paranoia and lies like you do...you know, things like, "elk hunting will be gone in 15 years". Bullchit, I'll bet every fuggin' thing I own against everyone you own, that we'll be hunting elk in 15 years. These are the "good old days" of elk hunting, and thats a fact. I'm not an elk hunter and I'd rather hunt deer, pronghorn, and sheep before elk...yet, I've killed 55 of them. A majority of them since wolves were reintroduced. Thats amazing, since, listening to you, the wolves ate all the elk? Care to explain how I've found 55 elk that the wolves missed? I must be one lucky elk hunter, considering I've never rifle hunted elk, a single day in 14 years of hunting Wyoming, where I couldnt have killed a bull elk...FACT.

I dont hate bears, I dont hate coyotes, I dont hate bobcats, etc. and I dont hate wolves.

They're just another animal on the landscape that we have the opportunity to scientifically manage and hunt, nothing more nothing less.

You can carry on with the mouth-breathing all you want...my stance on wolves has not changed since my first comments on the DEIS. Manage wolves at the population levels that they stay off the ESL...other than that, hunt, trap, and manage wolves as the State Plans call for.

Easy...and apparently your comprehension sucks, because I've stated the same thing...over and over again.

Facts interest me...your paranoia and lies, not so much.
 
Forgot to add: No, I dont believe Jim Beers has ever had a single scientific, peer-reviewed piece of literature published regarding wolves.

I think he's still mad that "Minorities and Women" are "allowed" to hold positions with the USFWS...

Real class act...and an asshat.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-08-14 AT 10:00PM (MST)[p]Regarding Gov. Otter.

If Idaho voters/Residents want Gov. Otter to spend 2 million of their tax dollars shooting wolves, thats their choice, their right, and I have no problem with that.

No other way to see it...
 
Buzz you are priceless...

"Mouth Breathing Redneck" I have to say I love that title!!

I look forward to continued discussion on Doug Smiths science project, "The GYEH".... Bringing some mouth breathing redneck facts to the argument...

That fun will have to wait, I am locking my sights on a wolf pack and will be gone for a while. Look forward to returning with more facts to share...
 
Be sure to keep that imagination fired up when you bring more of your "facts"...

The day you bring ONE fact to the discussion, will be your first.

Maybe try a credible source...Jim Beers and Toby Bridges ARE NOT credible...in case you didnt know.
 
210 posts later, one thing is still clear.... BuzzH is still a huge Douche bag!!! Not because he's an Oboma lovin jackass, wolf lovin hippie. More to do with he has to call names and belittle those that don't agree with him. Maybe if Buzz could actually have a conversation without being An AssHat, uh nevermind, that is impossible for him. Gotta call names and tear down others to make yourself feel better about your unusually small penis. Small man syndrome at its finest
 
If you don't have facts...or class

call names.

works for him...he thinks

gets it off his chest....and we all get to see his feeble mind on parade.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
Hey Titty, I can't believe it took you 210 posts to figure that out. Go check what I said about him on #40.

Funny thing is, Buzzy agreed with me. Well, he at least acknowledged it.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-09-14 AT 06:02PM (MST)[p]The last two posts spoke volumes to me. mtmuley 3 posts actually.
 
1994 19,045 (year before wolf reintroduction)
So Buzz how soon are the herds going to be back close to these numbers.

Was the Wolf introduction suppose do this to the herds or was it just a miscalculate on their part that they can't or wouldn't fix now.



"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Gator's point of thesee population changes is a good time to bring another FACT into this discussion.

I live right next to the area in question. The numbers will never get back to where they were. This map shows why.

The units in question for the northern Yellowstone Elk Herd are 313, 314, and 317. Unit 316 is all migratory, so they do not have an elk objective for that unit.

Since these units 313/314/317 are all at the current objective in the highly politicized Montana Elk Management Plan, FWP is not allowed to let populations increase. So, you are going to see a lot of cow tags for those units in 2014. FWP has no choice. The Legislature passed laws that forces them to do this, even if hunters want more elk.

4222elkobjective2011.jpg




If every wolf, mountain lion, and grizzly bear mysteriously died tomorrow, the legislature is not going to let Montana increase the number of elk in those units.

The current levels are what the legislature wanted when they get their fingers involved in the Montana Elk Management Plan. That sucks. So long as this plan is how it is and everyone wants to blame wolves for no recovery in elk numbers, we are screwed.

I spend a lot of the winter hunting wolves. Two days this week. I spend as much time trying to get the legislature to get out of elk management and get us to where we have a true Elk Management Plan, rather than an Elk Political Plan.

The current situation is not just the result of wolves, though they had a signficant impact when combined with years of liberal cow hunting of these units. And now that these units are at the objectives the legislature (select anti-wildlife politicians) want, this is where it will stay with the current rules FWP is forced to operate under.

We can continue to rant about the situation we see today, which is a huge decrease from past years. But, until we get the politicians out of this state elk management plan, this is where is will always be, wolves or no wolves.

The other option is for hunters to refuse to shoot cows in these units and let the numbers come back. Not going to happen.

So, this Elk Management/Political Plan fits into this thread title of "Interesting Wolf Facts." The FACT that makes it pertinent to this discussion is this - wolves are part of the reason, but not the only reason, these elk numbers are down. And they are not at all the reason that we will never see numbers back to where they were.

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
The Wolf haters don't care, their parents read little red riding hood to them when they were infants, its imprinted.

Its not about Elk its about Wolves.
I know all about Elk management plans, they are the most important thing in Elk management, and the most ignored thing by sportsmen.
 
Let's get the anti-hunters out of the decision making. Sportsman, ranchers,outdoor business ect. vote them out. Let the DWR, land owners, and sportsmen make the decisions.
Let's get to work.
 
>Gator's point of thesee population changes
>is a good time to
>bring another FACT into this
>discussion.
>
>I live right next to the
>area in question. The
>numbers will never get back
>to where they were.

>This map shows why.
>
>The units in question for the
>northern Yellowstone Elk Herd are
>313, 314, and 317.
>Unit 316 is all migratory,
>so they do not have
>an elk objective for that
>unit.
>
>Since these units 313/314/317 are all
>at the current objective in
>the highly politicized Montana Elk
>Management Plan, FWP is not
>allowed to let populations increase.
> So, you are going
>to see a lot of
>cow tags for those units
>in 2014. FWP has
>no choice. The Legislature
>passed laws that forces them
>to do this, even if
>hunters want more elk.
>
>
4222elkobjective2011.jpg

>
>
>
> If every wolf, mountain lion,
>and grizzly bear mysteriously died
>tomorrow, the legislature is not
>going to let Montana increase
>the number of elk in
>those units.

>
>The current levels are what the
>legislature wanted when they get
>their fingers involved in the
>Montana Elk Management Plan.
>That sucks. So long
>as this plan is how
>it is and everyone wants
>to blame wolves for no
>recovery in elk numbers, we
>are screwed.
>
>I spend a lot of the
>winter hunting wolves. Two
>days this week. I
>spend as much time trying
>to get the legislature to
>get out of elk management
>and get us to where
>we have a true Elk
>Management Plan, rather than an
>Elk Political Plan.
>
>The current situation is not just
>the result of wolves, though
>they had a signficant impact
>when combined with years of
>liberal cow hunting of these
>units. And now that
>these units are at the
>objectives the legislature (select anti-wildlife
>politicians) want, this is where
>it will stay with the
>current rules FWP is forced
>to operate under.
>
>We can continue to rant about
>the situation we see today,
>which is a huge decrease
>from past years. But,
>until we get the politicians
>out of this state elk
>management plan, this is where
>is will always be, wolves
>or no wolves.
>
>The other option is for hunters
>to refuse to shoot cows
>in these units and let
>the numbers come back.
>Not going to happen.
>
>So, this Elk Management/Political Plan fits
>into this thread title of
>"Interesting Wolf Facts." The
>FACT that makes it pertinent
>to this discussion is this
>- wolves are part of
>the reason, but not the
>only reason, these elk numbers
>are down. And they
>are not at all the
>reason that we will never
>see numbers back to where
>they were.

>
>"Hunt when you can - You're
>gonna' run out of health
>before you run out of
>money!"


***Golly gee, maybe BuzzH knew just a little bit about the situation after all!!!
 
*Golly gee, maybe BuzzH knew just a little bit about the situation after all!!!


Yep, Topgun, he does know just a little bit about the situation. The problem is he thinks he knows EVERYTHING and talks down to people like he is king. FACT!!!
 
>*Golly gee, maybe BuzzH knew just
>a little bit about the
>situation after all!!!
>
>
>Yep, Topgun, he does know
>just a little bit about
>the situation. The
>problem is he thinks he
>knows EVERYTHING and talks down
>to people like he is
>king.
>FACT!!!


No argument there dry!!! I try to look past some of that and look at the facts being stated because BuzzH is pretty much up to speed on most everything he posts on. As you know, I get caught up in the heat of the moment and do the same damn thing at times, so maybe it's easier for me to look past it, LOL! We all have our quirks and all of us probably need to think about that too because it's very easy to type and hit send compared to talking things over face to face when you have more time to spend on something being discussed.
 
""Funny though that a thread titled "wolf facts" is filled with a bunch of things that are well beyond anything factual.

Each wolf pack kills 2-4 elk per week? Where does that happen? Fantasyland?""

I can glass 20 dead bulls from one spot"...another great piece of mythology.

I'll gladly have a discussion about elk, what impacts them, even strategy to try to solve some of those impacts.""


OK Buzz, I'll bite you discredit a statement, calling it non-factual, without stating what you believe to be the truth. So what is the fact? How many elk per week are killed by each wolf pack? What percentage of the 16,000 elk decline since the wolf introdcution has actually been caused by wolves? And remember, list your references, so they may be substantiated.
 
Top gun, if he knew that the. Why didn't he just say it the way Bigfin did instead of calling names and insulting everyone.

I guarantee Bigfin carries more weight in this due to his involvement, and the way he presents himself, trying to unite all Spottsman instead of belittling them when they have an opinion and aren't educated about the issue entirely. Bigfin takes the time to help educate and that is more powerful than name calling every single time!

Buzz could learn something from him :)


"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
 
>O_S_O _K nailed it!
>
>
>Bigfin is awesome and does a
>great job.


***Again I can't argue a single thing you both stated and I hold Randy in very high esteem the way he conducts himself in all facets of life. IMHO he's about as good a representative for hunting and conservation as anyone I've ever seen. Very few people come along that can touch him, but we all can try.
 
dryboot, Randy and Buzz say pretty much the same thing. You and the rest of the "experts" need to pay attention. mtmuley
 
>dryboot, Randy and Buzz say pretty
>much the same thing. You
>and the rest of the
>"experts" need to pay attention.
>mtmuley


***Well put! That's essentially what I tried to say when I said to look past how BuzzH says things and look at what he says. With all he is involved in for all of us hunters and conservationists I would put him right up there nea rthe top and that's why he got his recent well deserved award.
 
It's amazing the amount of "hunters" that will post on wolf threads all over the net, and they don't know a damn thing about wolves, where they came from or how they got here. wolfhunter doesn't even know what kind of wolves we have,for example. He only kills legal, but right now, he's after a whole pack. So he says. Everyone wants to base their "knowledge" from the horror story shown of the GYEH. Do yourselves a favor, spend some time, from all the way back to 1994. Learn what happened and how. Learn where the wolves came from. (they were already in Montana and Idaho before re-introduction.) The wolves are here to stay. I bet most of the guys bitching here have never even seen one, much less hunted one. The guys posting here that call Buzz names and question his knowledge amaze me. He reiterates over and over he's not a wolf lover, but condones the killing and management of wolves. As do I. And Randy, and TOPGUN and others. I went through some of it about 8 years ago around here.(I think, it's been awhile) So, I'm ready for all the "experts" to call me a wolf lover now. Guys that question I would kill one can head to the Montana forum. mtmuley
 
Again mtmuley, it's not always what you say but how you say it!


"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
 
So is the information somehow different in the way it is "represented" on an internet forum? If you don't like the way the poster "says" it, it isn't viable? mtmuley
 
Not at all! My point is when it is presented correctly more people are willing to listen and learn instead of going away pi$$ed because they were belittled and called names. Don't ya think?


"The problem with quotes on Internet Forums is that it is often difficult to verify their authenticity." - Abraham Lincoln
 
No ##### mtmuley. Thanks for pointing out the obvious. A lot more people would listen to Buzz if he wasn't an asswad all the time. Savvy???
 
I agree. I also think most would like to buy into the hysteria than actually do any research and learn anything. Some posters that try to give real facts get belittled to the point that they resort to calling names. The uneducated people have no problem going to names first. mtmuley
 
So boot, you won't listen because of the way some things are presented? You aren't that great at presenting things about your wolf knowledge. mtmuley
 
Whether you acknowledge it or not, if you dislike someone, or if you're always getting shiit on by an individual, you will not listen or accept what they are saying, truth or not. Sorry but that's how it is.
Don't believe me??? Go back and look at how people respond. It happens in all walks of life,
 
Fair enough boot. The wolf issue is too important to me and hits way too close to home to not pay attention to it. I've spent a lot of time paying attention. The guys that haven't are easy to pick out, regardless if I like the way they present the info or not. Like I said, I took a hammering on this site starting 8 or 10 years ago about wolves. Way before some of the guys doing the hammering nowadays even knew wolves were here. mtmuley
 
Ah, those were the days.

It was a long read, nice to see a few finally get it. The Big town haul meeting we had in Ravalli county showed there's more that don't get it than do. I'm convinced there's more people that really don't want to hear the truth.




I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
I missed that meeting being out of town. I did make the FWP meeting though. Real interesting how quiet the wolf talk was. mtmuley
 
The EMP in Montana is great but aren't we talking about elk in Wyoming?

I understand that they summer in Montana but they take their population counts in the winter range.



"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-14 AT 10:30AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-14 AT 09:11?AM (MST)

AspenAdventures stated:

"The EMP in Montana is great but aren't we talking about elk in Wyoming?

I understand that they summer in Montana but they take their population counts in the winter range."



??????? You might want to take another stab at that one.

You have posted many comments in this thread. It seems your information about the topic is rather askew. Sorry, but that last post is hard not to laugh at when the original topic was "Interesting Wolf Facts."

I understand people getting upset about what they see in elk trends. The wolf makes an easy target. But, so often these threads are so full of BS.

If some want to have a discussion of the facts, seems it would be best to at least have the basic facts related to the issue. Or, at least, change the thread title to "Stuff I heard at the bar about wolves and elk."

I just scrolled up and re-read the original post to the thread. The herd that slamdunk provided data on is the Northern Yellowstone herd. That herd summers in Yellowstone National Park, which is almost all in Wyoming, and migrates to Montana, where they get the hell out of 'em, thanks to the politicians who influenced the MT Elk Management Plan.

The Northern Yellowstone Elk Herd is the herd that is subject to the Montana Elk Management Plan. So, it is the relevant issue here. It is the primary reason that elk in that herd will not recover even if wolves disappeared. I understand some don't want to talk about it, rather blame it all on wolves.

The herd in question does not summer in MT and winter in WY. The winter counts for that herd are taken in MT, mostly in Units 313/317, and the southern end of Unit 314. In fact, there is no elk herd that winters in Montana and migrates to Wyoming.

After reading this post, curiosity caused me to go back and read some of your other comments. You asked someone if they knew "how many wolves the "Forest Service" said needed to be there in order for delisting to happen.

For future reference, the Forest Services has nothing to do with delisting of wolves, or any species. The Forest Service manages Forest Service lands, timber sales, etc.

The delisting of wolves wasdecided by the USFWS (the United States Fish and Wildlife Service).

Carry on ......

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-14 AT 10:29AM (MST)[p]BigFin---Thanks for politely handing AA the FACTS, instead of sizing him up for a triple X "you know what" hat, LOL!! Your post was a good example of showing AA and a bunch of others posting on this thread that they don't know squat about the subject, including Mr. Expert wolfhunter that doesn't even know what wolves he's hunting, LOL! This may be just the reason that BuzzH gets so pizzed off when others start a debate with him that have absolutely no idea what they are talking about and he's been directly involved since the introduction in the mid 90s. They call him all kinds of names and bash his profession, but then get their panties in a wad when he makes them look stupid with the same real FACTS. As mtmuley has mentioned several times, the stated FACTS are the same whether you or BuzzH are posting them. If people would know their subject before dishing out their rude comments to BuzzH, just maybe they wouldn't get talked down to and things could stay on track and be discussed like gentlemen! I get caught up in this type of stuff on MM myself and it's easy for things to get carried away when it appears a post is just made to mock someone even though they know what they're talking about. That doesn't seem to happen nearly as often on your site as compared to this one, even though the same topics are being discussed.
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-14 AT 11:01AM (MST)[p]Its funny to see the back-peddling going on.

Like I said in my first couple posts, if you want to have a legitimate, fact based discussion about elk and wolves...glad to.

But, thats difficult to do when so many, know so little.

I would bet maybe 2-3 people commenting on this thread ever attended a scoping meeting on wolves. I bet maybe, 2-3 people took the time to respond during the NEPA process. I bet the same 2-3 people actually had any input into the State Wolf plans. I bet maybe, 2-3 people have read the FEIS. I bet maybe, 2-3 people had any input on MT's EMP.

Yet, that doesnt slow the majority down from shooting their mouths on a subject they dont know about.

BigFin hit it out of the park, the name of this thread should be changed to "what I heard about wolves and elk at the bar".

I can hardly wait until BigFin or someone else brings up the test and slaughter issue thats about to "hit" Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana.

That will really knock a lot of tinfoil hats off pointed heads...
 
I would love some facts. How many elk are killed by wolves in the park on a weekly basis? Of the roughly 16,000 fewer numbers of elk since the wolf introduction in the park, what percentage of that decline to the "experts" believe is wolf related?
 
I bet its hard to say what percent of the decline would be, according to the graph they were declining pretty rapidly when the introduction began.

As I said before, to many people, its not about elk or habitat, its either about the big bad wolf or the beautiful wild wolf.
Animal rights activists can become obsessed and carried away when they personalize animals, it becomes about one thing and nothing else is valid, wolf haters do the exact same thing.

Test and slaughter is about domestic cattle, They are going to capture groups of elk in winter and take their blood, and when they test positive for Brucellosis they will be slaughtered. some will just die from the stress of being captured, it won't be pretty, and its costly.
 
You have the resources right at your fingertips to find all the data you're asking for.

Why do you expect to be spoon-fed your mush?

Just this once, because I'm a nice guy, try Montanas EMP that I already provided a link to above.

That will give you a head start on educating yourself about what has caused, and is still causing, the decline in elk in Yellowstone.

If you come away that wolves are the only, or even most significant thing that has caused the decline, you simply arent doing any research.

The facts matter...
 
Shooterz posted: "I would love some facts. How many elk are killed by wolves in the park on a weekly basis? Of the roughly 16,000 fewer numbers of elk since the wolf introduction in the park, what percentage of that decline to the "experts" believe is
wolf related? "

None of the "experts" have answers to those questions. If they tell you they do, they are full of BS. No one has studied the exact numbers taken by wolves. Surely it is plenty.

Some facts we do know. Facts relevant to the discussion.

* We do know that from 1995 to 2001, hunters were issued 2,200 tags to shoot pregnant cow elk that were part of the Northern Yellowstone herd. How many of those tags resulted in a pregnant cow elk killed, I don't have in front of me, but historical success for that hunt was over 80%. Even if half were filled, that is 1,100 cows, plus close to that many calves, for many years in a row. Pretty easy math to see what was happening at the same time we had expanding wolf numbers and increasing grizzly bears.

* We do know that even with these lower numbers, the MT Elk Management Plan forces the Department to issue 400 cow tags in Unit 314 last year, with the same recommended for this year. We know that 150 cow tags were issued for Unit 317 last year, with the same this year.

* We do know what the objectives are in the current Montana Elk Management Plan. The map shows that we are supposedly at/over objective in most those units, even though hunters are bitching about low numbers.

* We do know that hardly any hunters showed up to protest the changes that political pressure caused to the objectives in the Elk Management Plan in 2003. We do know that hunters got steam rolled and the legislators laughed at the result. We do know that the current plan, after the anti-elk crowd get their way, has nothing to do with elk biology and wildlife science.

* We do know that the MT legislature passed HB 42 in 2003, requiring FWP, by law, to use the most liberal/aggressive seasons possible, when elk objectives were exceeded.

* We know that APHIS, the Federal agency charged with "supposed" management of the cattle disease known as brucellosis, which now infects wildlife in the Greater Yellowstone area is leading a plan where pregnant cow elk will be killed in Units 313 and 317, as late as March of this winter.

* We know that APHIS is working on a far more aggressive plan to test elk for presence of possible brucellosis in these units and the plan will include slaughter of elk that show evidence of exposure to brucellosis, even if they are not necessarily carriers of brucellosis. That is going to result in more dead pregnant cow elk, as females are the only vector for brucellosis.

* We know that APHIS has a stated goal of eradication for brucellosis, an effort they have stated will require "depopulation" of known vectors. For those who have not read the APHIS plan, "depopulation" is a sanitized term for kill all possible transmission vectors on the landscape. I guess it sounds better to say "depopulate."

* We know that the MT legislature already has bills introduced for the next session that will lower elk objectives in these areas, all in the name of disease control. That they are going to force FWP to work under the direction of of APHIS, forcing FWP to do animal husbandry, rather than wildlife management.

So, even though there is much we don't know about the exact number of elk eaten by the 100 +/- wolves in YNP, we do know what is in store for elk under the current political climate. We know what has happened to elk based on efforts of the anti-elk crowd that seems to rule the halls of Helena these days.

Those are all facts. I can provide links and citations to all of them, if you want them.

Those are enough facts for me to realize that even if I fill all five of my wolf tags this year, and my wolf hunting buddies do the same, we are not going to see an increase in elk numbers.

Those are enough facts to cause me to wonder when hunters are finally going to put some attention on the Elk Management Plans of these states and demand elk get a fair shake.

Enough to make me wonder when hunters are going to force their legislatures to stand up to APHIS, rather than take marching orders from this Federal agency as it relates to a state resource of wildlife. We take pride in being an independent bunch, but we let our legislators hand over direction of our most valuable elk herd to a Federal agency. If anyone trusts a Federal agency to manage these elk more than their state wildlife agency, then we have a huge difference of opinion.

Those are enough facts to cause me to watch APHIS very closely as they get ready to launch their plan to eradicate brucellosis in the Greater Yellowstone area; a plan that will be a direct attack on an elk herd that is already at very low levels.

But, so long as some groups can make money blaming it all on wolves, there will be hunters willing to ignore what is going on. That is unfortunate, as these elk need a break. A break elk are not going to get if hunters disregard the bigger issues impacting this herd.

None of the wingnut pro-wolf groups care what happens to these elk. They don't speak up when the legislature and APHIS further reduce these elk numbers. No money in it for them. The only people who can make a difference are hunters. Unfortunately, too many hunters believe the Little Red Riding Hood stories and spend all their time and energy focusing on one piece of the solution, which in the bigger picture, is one of the smaller pieces of the solution.

Carry on ....

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-14 AT 12:39PM (MST)[p]>I would love some facts.
>How many elk are killed
>by wolves in the park
>on a weekly basis?
>Of the roughly 16,000 fewer
>numbers of elk since the
>wolf introduction in the park,
>what percentage of that decline
>to the "experts" believe is
>wolf related?


***What has happened is fairly obvious if you look at the numbers of cow elk that were being shot every year after they migrate out of the Park into Montana. You cannot keep shooting thousands of female animals every year the way they were doing and not expect a great reduction in population after a period of time. Add the wolves into the equation since the mid 90s and this huge population drop was bound to happen. With the Montana EMP now in place there is no way even with no predation that the numbers will ever rebound to what they were, not even close!

EDIT: I see BigFin gave a pretty good explanation before I stepped away from the computer for a couple minutes and then came back to finish this post!
 
Bigfin, Question. If they are trying to destroy the elk in the name of brucellosis, what are they doing to the buffalo? I was under the impression that buffalo were heavier carriers of brucellosis than elk. Are they doing the same with the buffalo.
 
>Bigfin, Question. If they
>are trying to destroy the
>elk in the name of
>brucellosis, what are they doing
>to the buffalo? I
>was under the impression that
>buffalo were heavier carriers of
>brucellosis than elk. Are
>they doing the same with
>the buffalo.

Yes, they already have an agressive test and slaughter program for bison. They have a "no tolerance" zone for bison, where any bison that migrates that far gets shot, bull or cow, even though bulls are not transmission vectors. That is why they haze bison that migrate in Montana, test and slaughter them, shoot the hell out of them, and do not let hunters shoot many of them. They want to keep them in this very small tolerance area, then get them back in YNP as soon as snow melts.

Bison are a money maker for those who adhere to the "Cuddly conservation" religion. Same groups who love wolves. They are fighting for bison, along with the tribes who have treaty rights.

Now that they have found brucellosis in elk, APHIS is laying out a very similar plan to what they are doing for bison. If you want to see the future of elk under an APHIS direction, just look at what happens to bison in the Greater Yellowstone area. APHIS is driving that bus.

Here is one of many examples that gives some idea of just what degree of impact they know their brucellosis plan will have on elk numbers, in this case the impacts in NW Wyoming.

Go to this link and read the 2012 study they funded to determine the impact of a 10% to 50% reduction in NW Wyoming elk herds to combat brucellosis. If you don't want to read it all, the conclusions on page 13 give some idea of what they expect the impact to be on elk in NW Wyoming, where 70%+/- are dependent upon winter feed grounds.

http://www.emwh.org/pdf/elk/Uninten...d for elk hunting in northwestern wyoming.pdf

I don't think they hired three PHDs to do this study, just because they wanted to spend some money. The APHIS plan to deal with brucellosis has some serious reductions in elk numbers. In this study, they use a range of 10% to 50% reductions in elk to manage brucellosis risk to cattle.

This is not something I am cooking up. If hunters do some Google searches of "brucellosis elk APHIS yellowstone" and they will see pages of it.

Given that elk on Wyoming's winter feedgrounds have a 22% seropositive (exposed to, but not necessarily carrying brucellosis) rate compared to a 3.7% rate in non-feedground elk, if I was a hunter in NW Wyoming, I would be attending some brucellosis meetings to make sure my agency was representing hunters, not being asked to become an animal husbandry organization.

In Montana, our past Governor and the Legislature already dumped our agency into bed with APHIS and told our Department to start working with them in the plan. A new one-year plan was adopted last summer that is going to result in some dead cow elk this winter. More meetings are in store for the next few months before a bigger "collaborative" plan gets finalized later this year.

I am not privy to the Wyoming G&F plans for brucellosis, but there is a tendency for Governors to have their G&F agencies do the dirty work and take the public relations hit. Oh, and in MT, hunters get to pay for all of this, with some crumbs of reimbursement dangled in front of them by APHIS. I know WY G&F (hunters) paid over $1 million for the studies to determine brucellosis on feedgrounds.

I'm not big into conspiracy theories, so when I first started reading the APHIS plans for elk, seven or eight years ago, I thought it had to be some "black helicopter" idea. Nope. They are going forward with the plan and they are happy to see hunters almost exclusively focused on wolves, rather than what is going to happen when the " brucellosis eradication" plan is implemented. It may also be an "elk eradication" plan.

If that doesn't cause hunters to take notice, they should read the APHIS strategic plan for 2010 to 2015. That plan flat out states that "eradication" of brucellosis is a strategic goal. A goal that almost all vets and scientists say is impossible, and if possible, requires depopulation of every transmission vector (read elk, sheep, deer, bison, rodents) for a long period of time.

Probably should have a completely different thread on this topic.

At the most basic level, I hope MT, ID, WY hunters have enough distaste for Federal agencies to go to their Governors and Legislators and demand that they not put elk management at the mercy of a Federal agency such as APHIS. Once that happens, and it is getting closer each month, elk in this area is going to take another big hit.

"Hunt when you can - You're gonna' run out of health before you run out of money!"
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-12-14 AT 06:21PM (MST)[p]Look Bigfin.

You proved my point.

We are talking about the ELK IN YELLOWSTONE in WYOMING......that winter in the ELK REFUGE IN WYOMING.

We are not talking about the elk that winter in Montana

My point was that some of the elk summer south of the Beartooth area but end up on the ELK REFUGE IN WYOMING.

We are discussing WYOMING ELK THAT END UP WINTERING IN WYOMING ON THE ELK REFUGE BY JACKSON HOLE.....IN WYOMING.

That was my point....

Thanks for all the BS about the Montana Elk Management Plan.

WE ARE DISCUSSING WYOMING!

Oh yeah,,,,,,,anyone want to talk about elk in WYOMING!?

DONT TELL ME YOUR EMP IN MONTANA HAS AN AFFECT ON THE ELK IN WYOMING THAT WINTER ON THE ELK REFUGE IN WYOMING.

I get that there are other factors......but.....we are talking about elk that summer in Wyoming....and end up in Wyoming on the winter range....how do you explain their decline when the Montana Elk Management plan has little to do with the elk in the refuge?


"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
The original OP was strictly pointing to facts on the Norther Yellowstone elk herd. You talked a little about the Lolo, Wyoming, and Selway areas. Not one shred of facts to back up any of your claims.

You've been shown real facts and dismiss them without a thought.

I'm not sure your worth another response. Some people just don't get it, and your one of those.





I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
AA,

Care to answer a few questions regarding what you "know" about the Wyoming elk you're carrying on about.

What is the herd objective for the Jackson area elk herd?

Where do the elk that winter there come from?

What is the current elk population in Jackson?

How many seperate elk herds are managed in Wyoming?

How many of those herds are under objective?

What is the current population of elk in Wyoming?

How many elk can hunters legally kill in Wyoming per year?

Bottom line, you dont have a clue what you're talking about. The NYEH, is NOT related, in any way, to the elk herd in Jackson.

The herd being discussed by the OP in this article has to do with the GYEH, not about the herd in Jackson.

The only person discussing the Jackson herd is YOU.

You've now strapped on the velcro pants and showed the world your a$$.

Congratulations?
 
I usually don't get involved in arguments like this, however, when I see ignorance it's hard to keep quiet. Aspen you are ignorant! How can someone who claims to have so many degrees be so dumb. You make me feel dumb just reading what you type. Bigfin and buzz have been feeding you facts, please make your parents proud and stop responding.
 
I get that there are other factors......but.....we are talking about elk that summer in Wyoming....and end up in Wyoming on the winter range....how do you explain their decline when the Montana Elk Management plan has little to do with the elk in the refuge?

Do you want to try again, this time, without the dunce cap on?

How much is the Jackson herd below objective?

I didnt think it was possible for anyone to know so little about wolves, elk, and the management of same...

Unbelievable...
 
ALRIGHT!

Enough BS Already!

Just Post up now!

You a Wolf Lover?

Or?

Not a Wolf Lover?

I'm asking everybody!

Post em up!

I'm No Wolf Lover!

I do think there are Places for them!

TARDville Ain't one of them though!










[font color="red"]From My Smokin Cherry Red Hot Barrel & My Dead Cold Hands I Shall go down Fighting for American Pride & Rights!
I Know I'm Out Numbered by Pusssies & Brainwashed Democrats that'll Throw Their Hands in the air & I know I can't Lick the U.S. Military by Myself when they Turn on us but I'll make
you one Guarantee,They'll be Enduring a Situation where I Hope to Hell All Americans become True Americans once again & Stand up for their Rights!
 
>I usually don't get involved in
>arguments like this, however,
>when I see ignorance it's
>hard to keep quiet.
>Aspen you are ignorant!
>How can someone who claims
>to have so many degrees
>be so dumb. You make
>me feel dumb just reading
>what you type. Bigfin and
>buzz have been feeding you
>facts, please make your parents
>proud and stop responding.


LOL!!! At least once we both agree on something!!!
 
Whether I like wolves or not, it makes no difference. I don't want wolves in Utah. If I had my way there would be fewer wolves in Alaska and Canada.

I'm not in favor of swimming with piranhas, jogging with grizzly bears, or sleeping with black mambas either, they might be amazing animals, but I don't want them for neighbors. I guess, if folks want to share their lives with these creatures they can move were they live, rather than bring them here.

Further, I want fewer coyotes and cougars in Utah. I want fewer raccoons, crows, magpies, hawks, skunks, and I'm starting to watch the rapidly increasing black bear population.

I prefer more moose, elk, sheep, deer, sheep, upland and migratory birds to any predator. Regardless of how many game species wolves and other predators take, or don't take, their taking more than I want to share with them. As hard as it is to finance, grow and maintain hunt-able ungulates and bird populations I'm opposed to current levels of predators.

Just because I'm still fortunate enough to hunt and harvest deer, elk, moose, ducks, and geese, etc., numerous times each year, as some of us are still doing, does not change the fact there is more demand for hunting harvest than there is resource available. Can't see that changing anytime soon.

I agree with the old timers, in our present environment and for the foreseeable future, in my opinion, there is no room for wolves in the lower 48. Unless, of course, we're all ready to load up the wagons and sail back to Denmark.

DC
 
Okay okay, I give in. You guys are right. The wolves have very little to do with the elk. They don't really kill anything except field mice.

Go ahead and bring them to Utah.....where our elk herds are exploding....the wolves wont kill any of them anyway.

Great idea....what was I thinking?


"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
>Okay okay, I give in.
> You guys are right.
> The wolves have
>very little to do with
>the elk. They
>don't really kill anything except
>field mice.
>
>Go ahead and bring them to
>Utah.....where our elk herds are
>exploding....the wolves wont kill any
>of them anyway.
>
>Great idea....what was I thinking?
>
>
>"The penalty good men pay for
>indifference to public affairs is
>to be ruled by evil
>men." - Plato


***Well, well, well!!! It again looks like you didn't pay any attention to anything that has been posted by those who know the facts and this one sounded like a little kid who's going to take his marbles and go home, LOL! Let's hope so because not a single one of your posts has made any sense or brought out any actual facts about what is being discussed!
 
As mentined before. The wolf reintroduction has been a huge disaster to 95% of the people who live in those states and sportsmen who have to pay the bills, who lost opportunity from hunting, businesses who have lost revenue, ect.

There are a few wolf lovers, who believe this has been a big success. Those who live in the areas where ther are a lot of wolves are few in numbers.

I now one thing. If the wolves were never re introduced, it would be easier to draw a good elk and moose permit in WY, ID, and MT, bottom line.

I don't mind a few wolves in and around Yellowstone, the granola group lied, continue to lie, and continue to want to expand populations. Bottom line.

Which side are you on. For or against wolves. You can only decide for yourself.
 
huntin50: "Which side are you on. For or against wolves. You can only decide for yourself."


***Ah, if only it were that simple, but if you've read all the facts in this thread, it isn't! It will never be a wipe them all out philosophy, but rather a strategy to try and control their numbers and bring ungulates back up to acceptable levels that the habitat will hold. That will take all of us working together to also keep the huggers under control, instead of this every day stuff that some spout that will never happen.
 
TOPGUN

You have not "proven" anything. You have an opinion that other factors are at play. Wow! Mind blowing opinion.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
I get that you all know more than me about elk in the corner of Montana. Good for you.

I just feel like a lot of you guys discount the affect the wolf has had on the elk population. I have been going to Yellowstone every other year for vacation since I was a boy. You now see a lot less elk than before. I have hunted parts of Wyoming. You now see a lot less elk than before.

Just happens that the decline began when the wolves began.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
>I get that you all know
>more than me about elk
>in the corner of Montana.
> Good for you.
>
>I just feel like a lot
>of you guys discount the
>affect the wolf has had
>on the elk population.
> I have been going
>to Yellowstone every other year
>for vacation since I was
>a boy. You now
>see a lot less elk
>than before. I
>have hunted parts of Wyoming.
> You now see
>a lot less elk than
>before.
>
>Just happens that the decline began
>when the wolves began.
>
>"The penalty good men pay for
>indifference to public affairs is
>to be ruled by evil
>men." - Plato


***Again you lack reading comprehension because all along since the OP we've been talking about the northern Yellowstone herd and you once again put your foot in your mouth like you've done more than once. Nobody has said the wolves haven't had an effect on ungulate populations and in some areas it has been very bad, along with other factors that have been mentioned that you seem to not be able to comprehend. All that BigFin, BuzzH and I have asked is that if you're going to enter into a debate to at least come prepared with facts to back up your side of it. One of the members continuing to mouth off on this thread and others just like it doesn't even know what wolf is in the Rockies ecosystem, so how can you take anything else he says as a fact? In this particular case it's like you're both coming to a gunfight armed with a knife!
 
AA,

Dude...really, just stop. You're in way over your pointy head.

You've been paddled on the subject of wolves and elk...literally taken to the wood-shed.

Enough already.
 
AA you should be happy where you live and have some thinking individuals, not like here in California.The fish and game have the Humane Society making decisions such as a coyote season and bag limit on them including a fee for the tag. I'm thinking go ahead bring the wolfs here.
 
I understand your brucellosis points.

I understand your point about elk management plans. It is not like it is rocket science.

I am just saying that it is really really really really really odd that the elk decline starts almost on the exact year that the wolf is introduced.

I get that I may not have the exact facts. But, Piper and Buzz border on wanting to mate with the wolves they seem to love them so much. So, it seems as if the have also brought a knife to a gunfight because their opinions are so biased.

Anyway, don't bring wolves to Utah. Like I said, we are enjoying an overabundance of elk......many of them scoring over 400" each year. Keep the wolves to yourselves.


"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
LOL at the "notlike rocket science" comment! Your reading comprehension and comments on this with no facts is laughable, as is that comment about BuzzH and piper. You say that you may not have the exact facts when it's very obvious every time you post that you haven't done any homework and don't have ANY facts. Yes, we know Utah has some big elk, but I don't believe there are that many scoring over 400" in the overall scheme of things.
 
You are right, piper and buzz come off as very intelligent. Look, all the scientists are trying to figure it out. All the biologists are trying to figure it out. I am neither. Nor are you. What we do know is there are 1600 wolves here now. They eat a lot of elk....some estimates say about 20,000.

I understand a lot of facts about the situation.

If you had a new organization taking 20,000 elk tags each year and using them up for their friends and family I imagine you would belly ache about how badly it is hurting the elk population.

The brucellosis wouldn't hurt the elk population so badly if the wolves were not also taking their piece of the pie. Now that the wolves are taking a large chunk of the population it makes every other predator or disease that takes a chunk that much more important and deadly to the elk population.

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
AA,

Please...STOP. Really, this is painful to watch.

How many elk have died from brucellosis in your opinion?

Everytime you post, you just make less and less sense.

Unbelievable.

Also, have you done any research into the number of managed elk herds in the State of Wyoming? What the objective levels are? How many of those herds are over objective? How many are under objective? What the State population goals are?
 
LAST EDITED ON Jan-14-14 AT 01:37PM (MST)[p]AA---Here's a quick read on brucellosis in the GYA and what is being talked about just FYI. Please notice there is no reference to any cattle or elk dying other than the spontaneous abortions it causes in cattle, thus a big money loss to ranchers who raise cattle for a living. Here's the link and it won't take but 3-4 minutes to read.

http://wwwnc.cdc.gov/eid/article/19/12/13-0167_article.htm
 
Aspen proves everything I suspect about folks in Utah not being able to grasp issues such as the diff between posts suitable for General vs. Utah-specific forums. Must be a fun time at family gatherings when Aspen shows up to enlighten everyone on his skills.
 
Topgun, thanks for the read. Whats your point?

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men." - Plato
 
>Aspen proves everything I suspect about
>folks in Utah not being
>able to grasp issues such
>as the diff between posts
>suitable for General vs. Utah-specific
>forums.

Huh?
Thanks for lumping everyone together Mr Richard Cabeza.
Zeke
 
>Topgun, thanks for the read.
> Whats your point?
>
>"The penalty good men pay for
>indifference to public affairs is
>to be ruled by evil
>men." - Plato


*** My point after reading that question is to agree with everyone else that you're a hopeless cause and don't know when to quit. You made statements in two posts about brucellosis and obviously if you read the link I gave you it proves you lack any reading comprehension at all. I told you above what the article stated in just one or two sentences and you just come back with another stupid post. As Buzz and others have already requested, please just keep quiet because your IQ level is very questionable with each post you make!
 

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