Hunting expo tags......and yelling foul

I agree let us look at the big picture. What are we leaving to the next generation?

Will game be managed under he premise of the models laid out over the history of our country?

Will game be managed for the state or the estate?

Who is promoting what type of management?

Who's philosophies align with state management or estate management?


As far as growing numbers, I can easily see the conflict.

Some consider growing to be over the inception of the plan.

Others consider growing to be seasonal.

When looked at as seasonal SFW can surely be growing. When looked at over the period of existence growing certainly can be questioned.

Maybe it would be best if the term growing is defined.

I would have a question for Birdman. Would you be happy if your investments were growing at the same rate as SFW?
 
Dave-

I appreciated your comments at the RAC meeting last week.

Utah has more conservation permits than all other western states combined and that does not take into account convention, landowner and CWMU permits. Do you honestly believe that Utah sportsmen have seen a corresponding benefit in quality and quantity of hunting oppotunities as a result of those permits? Overall, does Utah have better hunting than other western states? Does Utah have better management practices than other states? Are the conservation groups that benefit from these permits looking out for the interests of all sportsmen? Does Utah really really need to issue 300 conservation permits each year? Could we get the same bang for the buck, or close to it, with a reduced number of conservation/governors permits? These are the types of questions that average sportsmen are considering.

While I agree with SFW on many issues, I do not agree that average sportsmen have not already given enough in the way of conservation, convention, landowner and CMWU permits. How do other western states manage to get by with significantly fewer commercial permits? Many of us are concerned with the direction we are heading with respect to the commercialization of wildlife. Many of my friends in surrounding states are scared to death that the "Utah model" will spread to their home states. I believe that there will be many unfortunate consequences for our generation and the next if we continue to commmercialize our wildlife. We need to look for other solutions.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
>I would have a question for
>Birdman. Would you be happy
>if your investments were growing
>at the same rate as
>SFW?

Birdman,

A better question would be, "Would you be happy if your broker gave you the kinds of answers about your investments as you're giving us about SFW's growth?

And if you really don't care what others think about SFW, why do you feel you have to defend them?
 
This is a paragraph from javihammer
The point of my question is to better understand the value proposition of these tags. If you factor in the big potential tax writeoff for the auction winner (tax writeoff is a loss to the public), the 10% collected by the non-profit auctioning org for "marketing", and any other portion (say 30%)of the funds retained by the auctioning org for pet projects that were "approved by the board".

This is a paragraph from Birdman
javihammer, The tags have a market value set by the DWR. Each tag varies. When someone buys one of these tags, everything over the value of the tag, the cost you would have if drawing that tag, is tax deductible. If the tag looses money for what the organization bids for the tag, the organization looses that. The organization auctions off the tag, 10% is paid to the organization, Out of that 10% all costs are paid including the auctioneer. 30% goes straight to the DWR. The remaining 60% goes into a fund to be spent on the species the tag was sold for.
Then Birdman checked on a question I had about the ?Cost? of the tag.

He responded, DZ, You get a voucher and still have to pay for the tag.
To me this means you can write off the full amount of the auction because you are paying what the tag sells for when you buy your tag. I'm no tax expert but I would say the general public is taking it in the shorts as far as the $s go.

+1 to javihammer on bring up this info.

DZ
 
There is a side of this convention tag/conservation tag system that I belive isn't even realized by most sportsman. All things done within the DWR are done by rule. In order to establish rules someone has to propose an item that will be defined by rule. (See one of fishons posts above). One Conservation group in Utah has been very good at proposing rules and getting them accepted. Any way once a rule is established it defines parameters in order to define numbers of permits. So what happens per se if the conservation groups petition the DWR for more conservation permits.
Just suppose group A has been recieving the Cache Moose Tag for years but at renewal time are outbid by group B and lose the tag.
Group A being savvy to how things work look at the moose numbers and are convinced there is room for 2 conservation permits. Using there salesmanship they convince the DWR that a second conservation moose permit would be a good idea, raise alot of money, we have a buyer etc. In fact it appears there is room for a Convention Cache Moose Permit also and it would surely make the convention more appealling and again we would raise alot of money. The division buys into it and alotts another conservation moose tag and a convention tag for Cache Moose. The DWR enters into multiyear contractual agreement with group A to provide these addditional permits. The next year as the DWR is setting permit numbers an interesting thing happens. By rule they need x number of public tags to cover the now 3 conservation tags they alotted so the Cache moose tags public increase from 15 to 30. Within 2 years it is realized an over harvesting of the Cache Moose and something needs to be done. So permits drop from 30 public to 8, without a drop in the conservation permits because they are contracted. So the public took it in the shorts while the conservation group A got what they wanted. An uprising comes about that exposes the violation of the rule but instead of fixing the discrepancies what happens? Again through petitoning and convincing the DWR that we need them the rule is allowed to be broken to satisfy conservation group A. 2 years later the Cache Moose tags have been reduced to 2 resident for the public hunter along with 1 nonresident that is again in violation of the rule. Now you tell me what good are these conservation tags doing?

This is one example. However, math does not lie. If you want to know why the quality of your local elk herd is diminishing. Put a time line with the mathematical equation to determine conservation/convention permits. You will find out that as conservation tags increased there was also need for public permits to increase and age objectives to drop. The quality decline of Utah's once famous elk herd is a direct result of the greed to sell more conservation tags. It is a system that defeats itself. Utah manages by defined rules that are directly tied to the value of conservation permits and contracted tags to conservation groups and most folks don't see the forest for the trees.


If you are upset because your chances are getting slimmer to kill 350 bulls: blame conservation permits.

If you are upset because you may never draw an elk tag in Utah: blame conservation permits.

If you are upset because we are killing to many cow elk: blame conservation permits.

Conservation permits drive elk management in Utah.

You can not have your cake and eat it too.

Math does not lie! Utahs elk herds and harvest objectives are driven by the number of conservation tags that are contracted to be sold. If you have doubts buy me lunch and we will formulate the equation according to the rule and you can see the answer for yourself.
 
Well, I guess I got my answer on auction tags and tax deferability. This is probably business as usual and has been for many years. That doesnt make it right and Utah as the premiere wealth tag commercializer should be sophisticated enough to know how to calculate an accurate fair market value for these tags. If they arent they need to hire a good accountant or economist. Allowing auction bidders to write off what I am sure is well over six figures in some cases is unacceptable. The full winning auction bids are far more representative of the fair market value of the tags than the standard draw cost. Not sure why line jumpers should get a 20-40% discount when every other hunter gets to pay with his tag with after tax funds and a REALLY long wait, if he even gets a tag in the first place.

It is one thing to prey on the lack of understanding about the value of cream of the crop tags with legislators, it is something totally different to understate the actual fair market value of these tags to derive a higher return. It is a bit disengenuous to say money is being raised when in reality a big portion of that tag bid is actually taxes that would have had to be paid into the public coffers anyway. This sounds like redistribution to me. If I were the department of revenue for one of the states where the big Utah auction bidders are from I would be licking my chops right now. The Utah DWR would be wise to get their crap together on this one, I can assure them the non-hunting public (a big co-owner of the wildlife) wont buy the "we just provide a voucher" for a tag argument. Unreal. Some of this would be hard to believe if it wasnt true. This whole story would make a great Dateline NBC episode.
 
>Well, I guess I got my
>answer on auction tags and
>tax deferability. This is probably
>business as usual and has
>been for many years. That
>doesnt make it right and
>Utah as the premiere wealth
>tag commercializer should be sophisticated
>enough to know how to
>calculate an accurate fair market
>value for these tags. If
>they arent they need to
>hire a good accountant or
>economist. Allowing auction bidders to
>write off what I am
>sure is well over six
>figures in some cases is
>unacceptable. The full winning auction
>bids are far more representative
>of the fair market value
>of the tags than the
>standard draw cost. Not sure
>why line jumpers should get
>a 20-40% discount when every
>other hunter gets to pay
>with his tag with after
>tax funds and a REALLY
>long wait, if he even
>gets a tag in the
>first place.
>
>It is one thing to prey
>on the lack of understanding
>about the value of cream
>of the crop tags with
>legislators, it is something totally
>different to understate the actual
>fair market value of these
>tags to derive a higher
>return. It is a bit
>disengenuous to say money is
>being raised when in reality
>a big portion of that
>tag bid is actually taxes
>that would have had to
>be paid into the public
>coffers anyway. This sounds like
>redistribution to me. If I
>were the department of revenue
>for one of the states
>where the big Utah auction
>bidders are from I would
>be licking my chops right
>now. The Utah DWR would
>be wise to get their
>crap together on this one,
>I can assure them the
>non-hunting public (a big co-owner
>of the wildlife) wont buy
>the "we just provide a
>voucher" for a tag argument.
>Unreal. Some of this would
>be hard to believe if
>it wasnt true. This whole
>story would make a great
>Dateline NBC episode.

javier

all tags in utah are the same price per species and hunts!
le elk $280
le oil sheep $500.00

you get the point!
what the "rich line jumping pos's ' are paying top dollar for are vouchers that cost many thousand more $ than the tag is worth .you should call HnR block about deductions .

Birdman

you ever hear the old saying about arguing with "azz bags"?
it's like wrestling with a PIG in the mud.after a while you realize the pig likes it!

you must be bored as i am to keep arguing with these guys .ask them to post what they personally have done for wildlife in utah.

i know top belongs to all the "good orgs" and has donated several$ to wildlife so don't ask him! plus time.
 
Javihammer,

You have run back to class warfare. By the way you have no idea how tax deductions work. I think its funny how a hunter who you would think would be conservative, obviously knows what would be a good show for NBC. Classwarfare and a welfare wildlife model has corrupted you.
 
Tristate-

Other than Don Peay, you are the only person I know of that refers to the North American Conservation Model as a "welfare wildlife model." Most sportsmen view the North American Conservation Model as a tremendous success story. We view the average sportsman who hunts general season tags and patiently waits in line for the opportunity for a limited entry or once-in-a-lifetime hunt -- all the while quietly funding wildlife conservation through license and permit fees and excise taxes -- as the real heroes of conservation. We understand that there are many out there who would like to put an end to hunting, and we believe that there is strength in numbers.

While I could probably purchase high-dollar permits under the system you support, I choose to support a system where everybody has the opportunity to hunt at a fairly modest cost. I do not want to see the masses priced out of the sport we love. I have read enough of your posts to know that you support the further commercialization of our wildlife, which you view as the answer to current funding issues faced by fish & game agencies. In contrast, most of us view the further commercialization of hunting and wildlife as a very slippery slope the could lead to the end of the North American Conservation Model. I certainly hope that your views never gain any wide-spread traction.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
Mathews Drenalin LD
 
Tri

You need to come to Utah, you could learn a few things.

1. Are you sure the scenario is hypothetical?
2. Who is driving the Bus? Just look at our public process schedule and you will learn a lot of what happens first.
3. Study how our calendar works for policy making. It is ironic Conservation tags are ahead of Public tags in the process. It is ironic that we enter into multiyear contracts for conservation tags yet decide public tags on a yearly basis. The irony is lost once you find out who has sponsored most of the rules.


As far as doing things for wildlife. I have organized a work party for Saturday to gather electric fence abandoned on a WMA.
Care to join us Coondog?
 
Mulepacker,

I have been to Utah more times than I can count. What I am talking about is universal. It isn't rape if the woman (DWR) jerks off her own drawers throws herself to the matt and spreads her legs voluntarily. You stay mad at people who take a tiny role in the screwing you recieve and give the monkey beating you and holding you down a free pass. Guess who appreciates that.
 
Hawkeye,

I agree that the NACM WAS a great tool for wildlife in the US. It had its flaws back then too but they were minor under the conditions. Like most wildlife models it had its success and failures but overall it was good for wildlife and sportsmen. However like most wildlife models you have to change it. Wildlife is dynamic. Socialy we have changed. HUNTING HAS CHANGED. Politics have changed. The landscape has changed. The wildlife itself HAS CHANGED. If you are not going to be willing to change your wildlife model as the world changes then your wildlife model is destined to fail. It is failing you now. It has been failing for at least three decades in regards to hunting and sportsmen. You do not have near the opportunity that the previous generation had at hunting. The next generation will have even less. Much Less. Believe it or not I am trying to help you. Even these guys that call me names and refuse to talk about the truth of whats going on. I am trying to help them too. I understand the things I talk about are radical and scary and I am definately will ing to listen to new ideas seperate to my own. However I am not willing to go back and commit myself to outdated and failing policy. I do not understand the mentality of those who do.
 
Tristate that was a great analogy??? eyes rolled Tris how do you feel about the greys river subdivision? BOK classwarfare BOK classwarfare
 
Tri,

"You do not have near the opportunity that the previous generation had at hunting." With this I agree however it is contrary to the marketing slogan of SFW for sure. They see Utah as having more opportunity than ever before.
Secondly your arguement only works for 1-2 generations because my grandfathers generation certainly did not have the opportunity my father had. In fact that was the foundation for the model and changed that ensued. I am of the opinion it is still a viable model of management, not to be done away with but to adapted to the current challenges being faced in todays world. I am also of the opinion that Utahs model will not ensure hunting for the public in the future but will create an extremely limited opportunity to hunt.


I see a different picture than you. I see the DWR as having been seduced rather than raped. In fact not just the DWR but a minority of sportsman. Of course they did still get screwed in the long run.

You assume I give the DWR a free pass, I can assure you that is not the case. Read my post above. The project I have organized is evidence. It has taken a number of years and change in the WMA manager (by pressure) in order to get miles of electric fence cleaned off the WMA before it entagles any more wildlife. But it is happening Sportsman and the DWR are cooperating to improve "wildlife" and it did not take the selling of a Conservation permit to accomplish the task.
 
"Tri,

"You do not have near the opportunity that the previous generation had at hunting." With this I agree however it is contrary to the marketing slogan of SFW for sure. They see Utah as having more opportunity than ever before."

I am not arguing on behalf of SFW. So I really don't care what they say.

"Secondly your arguement only works for 1-2 generations because my grandfathers generation certainly did not have the opportunity my father had. In fact that was the foundation for the model and changed that ensued."

I know. I have not said there was not a time and place when the NACM was not effective. It just isn't effective anymore for sportsman.

" I am of the opinion it is still a viable model of management, not to be done away with but to adapted to the current challenges being faced in todays world. I am also of the opinion that Utahs model will not ensure hunting for the public in the future but will create an extremely limited opportunity to hunt."

What are the changes you want. I am willing to listen. SO far all I see on these forums is the idea of lets go back to the old way. The old way won't fix anything.


"I see a different picture than you. I see the DWR as having been seduced rather than raped. In fact not just the DWR but a minority of sportsman. Of course they did still get screwed in the long run."

Seduced?????? You have a government organization which controls all of the resource, does not have to account for its failures, and never has. All it has to do is keep providing excuses like the weather for their failures. What did SFW have to seduce them with?????? They allready had it all.

"You assume I give the DWR a free pass, I can assure you that is not the case. Read my post above. The project I have organized is evidence. It has taken a number of years and change in the WMA manager (by pressure) in order to get miles of electric fence cleaned off the WMA before it entagles any more wildlife. But it is happening Sportsman and the DWR are cooperating to improve "wildlife" and it did not take the selling of a Conservation permit to accomplish the task."

Thanks for your help but that is not an arguement here. If all it took was pressure and volunteer work you wouldn't need a DWR at all.
 
Tri,

I don't have a lot of time to respond to each of your points and won't try as I believe you simply debate to debate. However your opinion may carry more validity with me if I knew a little background.

I would just like to know your actual realtionship to Utah's on going dilemma of wildlife management.

You state you are not arguing in behalf of SFW and then at times you do. In some instances you refer to general wildlife management and other times it is Utah Specific. I am arguing Utah and Conservation tags specific to Utah and my points are directed that way.
 
Fair enough question Mr Mulepacker.

I am not a member of SFW. I will take their side on an issue if they have a good idea or are correct. The same I would do for you if I agree with something you say.

I do not argue just for the sake of arguing. If you look on these forums there are many more topics that I do not post at all on because I have nothing to add to the debate or no dog in the fight. Most of the time you will see me in this section posting against people who are posting against SFW. That is not because I think that SFW is in the right nor do I believe SFW needs my help. I post against these attack threads because they do absolutely nothing to solve the real issues that are threatening you as a sportsman. Many are driven by class warfare, selfishness, and sometimes jealousy. All they do is drive wedges between all of us. It weakens us from being able to identify and deal with the real issues that threaten the future of our sport in a logical manor.
 
Tri,

Thanks for the answer. It definetly gave me a different perspective as to where you are coming from.

I agree we should put this effort into brainstorming and discussing changes that will benefit the future.

I also argue against issues I see as a real threat to sportsman. One of which obviously is Utah's Conservation Permit program. Because of all issue/rules tied to Utah's system deisgned to benefit the Organization selling the permits I do beleive it is detrimental to the future of wildlife management and sportsman.

Lastly, I also agree one of the biggest threats is the division.
I note that Utah seems to have the most divided sportsman if these forums are any indication. Again I see that as a direct result of SFW's role within our state. They often want to blame it on those not jumpimg on their bandwagon and label us as pigs, dumbazz's and a plethora of other names. I would simply remind that minority that SFW developed a system which has divided many Utah sportsman. I would dare say more than ever before. So I see the SFW model as a real threat to sportsman and wildlife in all states.

I will have to disagree on one point. I do believe any action that attacks the SFW model is protecting me as a sportsman. I have seen and been involved in the battle since the days on the Capitol steps. I certainly do not see a bright future the way Utah is headed. Others may disagree and like you I would simply like them to use something other than "class warfare, selfishness, and sometimes jealousy" I would also include bullying to validate there position.

Thanks again and best of luck in your quest heading us in a positive difference making direction.
 
Mulepacker, don't waste your time trying to have a conversation with that clown. He's all about the SFW way. He already stated in another thread that ALL hunting permits should be auctioned off to the highest bidder. He stated anyone who draws a permit from the public draw is the same as collecting walfare food stamps and anyone who draws a LE tag shoud pay the same amount of money for that tag as much as it would be auctioned off for, meaning tens of thousands of dollars.

Trollstate, like you said you don't have a dog in this fight so why don't you STFU!!! Nobody cares what your lazy Texas cornflinger high fence hunting a$$ thinks or says.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-23-13 AT 08:53PM (MST)[p]Does anyone care to make a compelling argument that the fair market value of a tag is the price of the tag in regular tag drawing after reading the info below? A voucher has no value without the tag so they are really the same thing. "Open" market and full consideration of scarcity were mentioned below. I would argue that an auction, even by a so called "non-profit", is an open market and reflects fair market value. The fairly nominal cost for a tag IF DRAWN in the regular tag draw is small potatoes in comparison. Very little if any portion of the money paid for an auction tag "voucher" should be tax deductible.

http://www.irs.gov/publications/p561/ar02.html#d0e139


What Is Fair Market Value (FMV)?


To figure how much you may deduct for property that you contribute, you must first determine its fair market value on the date of the contribution.

Fair market value. Fair market value (FMV) is the price that property would sell for on the open market. It is the price that would be agreed on between a willing buyer and a willing seller, with neither being required to act, and both having reasonable knowledge of the relevant facts. If you put a restriction on the use of property you donate, the FMV must reflect that restriction.


Determining Fair Market Value


Determining the value of donated property would be a simple matter if you could rely only on fixed formulas, rules, or methods. Usually it is not that simple. Using such formulas, etc., seldom results in an acceptable determination of FMV. There is no single formula that always applies when determining the value of property.

This is not to say that a valuation is only guesswork. You must consider all the facts and circumstances connected with the property, such as its desirability, use, and scarcity.
 
Lets get this straight. Over %40 of Americans don't pay any federal income tax. GE weasled out of paying any taxes on several BILLION dollars of profit last year. AND YOU are upset that someone gets to write off thousands of dollars for a charitable donation??????????

This is what I mean buy nobody is dealing with their real issues here. You have beat on every issue and have not found satisfaction so you are finaly whining about peoples taxes????????
 
Tristate your a character and a nut in my opinion, please move to Texas if you don't live there already.
Why don't you quit beating around the bushes?

Sorry Tristate but the biggest reason hunters have less opportunity to hunt mule deer and a few other species is the changing climate and plant succession, DOW isn't lying.
Actually over the last decade or so elk hunting has never been better, and that's true in many western states.

Much of the reason general big game hunting opportunity is slipping is because of rapid human population increases, increased technology and increased access to ever shrinking wildlands, hence the need for quotas.

Sorry bud, but your dead wrong about most everything.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-13 AT 09:45AM (MST)[p]Yesterday while waiting in the hospital for my mother to come out of surgery to have her cancer removed, I had the pleasure to talk to a new family member (he married my aunt recently). I did not know this about him, but he used to be on the wildlife board. I will not name his name. He told me story after story about Don Peay and SFW and how all of this came about. He told me about how when they 1st proposed the Antelope Island hunt back in 2007 and how fast it was shot down. Then the next year how it got shot down both form the parks and the dwr and how people laughed at the idea. All of a sudden, We now have a Island hunt.

Why this story, well, DWR was not raped, but bribed and so were the Park and Rec. No raping, Just a little paycheck. People were fighting against this, but MONEY TALKED in 2010.

After i read this, it sounds like i am saying that people were paid under that table or something. THAT is not what I am saying, Just the $$$ that came from the convention tag $$$ check shows up in front of all.

Crazy stuff, I think Tony Abbott and this gentleman should get together and start a little firestorm. But it wont happen, My new Uncle promised to stay out since hes seen 1st hand the CORRUPTION!!! I dont blame him.
 
"Why this story, well, DWR was not raped, but bribed and so were the Park and Rec."


You are slandering people again. You have absolutely no evidence of bribery and you are just throwing inflamitory garbage on here because you are out of ideas. If you have any evidence of bribery I suggest you report to the authorities instead of internet forums.
 
"Sorry Tristate but the biggest reason hunters have less opportunity to hunt mule deer and a few other species is the changing climate and plant succession, DOW isn't lying.
Actually over the last decade or so elk hunting has never been better, and that's true in many western states."

Climate change??? Is that the excuse you have been given? A species that survives in territories where the low temperature is -50 degrees to areas where the high temperature is +120 degrees, also precip amounts from 5 inches anually to 100 inches annually and you think climate change is the reason your DOW can't manage them. Thats funny. Then you give the excuse of plant succession which happens to be one of the easiest things to manage in most deer herds, but your states have neglected it for decades.

" Much of the reason general big game hunting opportunity is slipping is because of rapid human population increases, increased technology and increased access to ever shrinking wildlands, hence the need for quotas."

Why compound the problem by neglecting management of your herds then?
 
javi- Personally I'd rather see all the tags stay in the public draw, with maybe one per species being auctioned off as fundraisers, like many other states do. But you're gonna lose the argument about the cost basis for tax deductions. If ALL Utah tags were being auctioned, you might have a point, but they aren't. The base value is therefore set by the price DWR charges for them in the draw. Perfectly valid as long as the money is paid to a legitmate 501c organization.
 
TRIPSTATE,

Its not slandering when its the truth. Why do you think, or maybe you dont, that everytime something in utah big happenes, SFW is always there with a big check right before they propose something new? Its not garbage, its clear you have no reading comprehension. He was there and saw it all 1st hand. But then again, you dont understand that. What that means is:

He was on the wildlife board and witnessed minds change when $$$$$ (=money) was involved.

Maybe if there was a pop up book with cool pictures for you to color you might understand that a little better.

You know, its hard to go to the authorities when they are the ones who appointed and put these people into position.

YOU MAY NOT UNDERSTAND TRIP, but the government is corrupt!!!
 
Actually I do understand that you do not know what bribery is. You learned a new word and decided to shoot your mouth off. If the entire system is corupt and you have proof I suggest you approach the FBI. I am sure you will come back and declare them to be part of the corruption also but I assure you its just your meds.

For example yesterday the State house here in Texas voted to shut down the state lottery. Someone brought it to their attention that the state public school system was now going to lose 2 billion dollars in funding. Within the day they had reversed their vote. Was money involved in their decision? You bet! Does that mean it was bribery? Hell no!

Just because money is involved in the political decision making process, even with wildlife management, does not mean it is bribery.
 
Tristate-

I think what Robiland is saying is that the money generated from these tags has an huge influence on the policy and decision making process. Conservation permits do not merely generate revenue for conservation. They also generate tremendous amounts of power and influence for the groups involved, which is then used to influence the decision-making process. Call it what you want but at the end of the day, the groups use a public resource (conservation permits) to generate large amounts of money, which they then use not only to fund wildlife conservation activities but also to influence policy and management decisions. Unfortunately, the conservation groups, the DWR, the Wildlife Board, the State, and the parks service get so excited about the money generated that the money becomes the driving force behind many of the decisions. I believe that it what Mulepacker was referring to in Post #105 above. But that is just my opinion.

Hawkeye

Browning A-Bolt 300 Win Mag
Bowtech Destroyer
Winchester Apex .50 Cal
 
Your right! I admit. I am off my meds. Dang, You got me. But its clear that you're not off your meds. Keep spewing crap. You are an interesting person. But i bet that they did not bring a 2 billion dollar check and then have a vote. They made a vote, REALIZED what they just did, and then fixed that problem.
Just a little bit different.
 
Hawkeye,

You once again summarized my thoughts perfectly.

You should get in a business that uses your abilities to decipher ramblings!

More random thoughts.

A second method of deception within the CP $$$ game.

Should it be ethical/legal for the CP groups to take a group photo with the DWR touting a million dollar donation from the CP group. When in reality it is simply the DWR receiving the DWR's percentage agreed to from the sell of CP's awarded the group by the DWR. Would this not be fraud, deception, or at least false advertising when it is posted on websites and published in Magazines?

A third method of deception within the CP $$$ game.

Should it be legal for a group to bid on CP permits but not be held accountable to the bid price? Only needing to return 90% of what they sale for rather than the amount the CO bid or 90% of the bid. The bid amount which prevented other groups from securing the permit and winning the permit for said group.
Tristate this one actually should even get your goat as it definetly is a flaw in the rule proposed by conservation groups to protect them from a loss on CP's. This certainly can discount the market value of the tags.
 
You want to know what they realized? Government costs money. They don't make it out of thin air. They have to find ways of revenue, and then allocate to complete a job. WHY WOULD YOU EVER THINK WILDLIFE WOULD BE DIFFERENT? You want the wildlife to belong to the people but somehow you don't want the people (your DWR) to be able to fund it???????? Yes money talks in these issues. There is no way around that. You show any government organization a way to collect more revenue with less effort to fund their budgets and they will jump all over it. If a DNR has a choice between getting the funds it needs and being broke while listening to titty babies cry about "Why aren't there any deer" which group do you think is going to get attention????????

Robiland,

Its as simple as this. Government costs money. YOUR DEER COST MONEY! IF you think you can get buy managing your wildlife without significant revenue streams then both your government and your deer will suffer.
 
Hawkeye,

I can understand Robiland trying to make those statements, but instead of just saying that and what he may or may not agree with he comes out with this "I heard from a guy in the know" bull and starts slinging around terms like "bribery". Then instead of taking it back declares that everyone knows it goes on but nothing is done because of "corruption".

Everytime you and I have talked about this we have been able to talk about it with real perception. We need to eject the illogical hate out of these debates. As long as people keep screaming unfounded melodramatic stuff on here I can guarantee you won't find any satisfaction, much less compromise. Neither will I.
 
>Tri
>
>You need to come to Utah,
>you could learn a few
>things.
>
>1. Are you sure the scenario
>is hypothetical?
>2. Who is driving the Bus?
>Just look at our public
>process schedule and you will
>learn a lot of what
>happens first.
>3. Study how our calendar works
>for policy making. It is
>ironic Conservation tags are ahead
>of Public tags in the
>process. It is ironic that
>we enter into multiyear contracts
>for conservation tags yet decide
>public tags on a yearly
>basis. The irony is lost
>once you find out who
>has sponsored most of the
>rules.
>
>
>As far as doing things for
>wildlife. I have organized a
>work party for Saturday to
>gather electric fence abandoned on
>a WMA.
>Care to join us Coondog?

which wma and how much fence ? why wait till saturday .lets go do it tommorrow.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-13 AT 02:43PM (MST)[p]Coondog,

Hardware Ranch.

Saturday was selected to get the most participation for the project as it seems to be the day most folks are off. I will still hold the event Saturday 8:00 am meet at Rock Creek Trailhead. Assignments/Instructions will be given and we will disperse 9:00am. Lunch will be served at 2:00pm.

However, if you are willing go tomorrow/Thursday (25) I would certainly accept your help as I need to preride some of the areas in preparation.

Many of the areas we will be using horses to access and pack out the garbage. Do you have a horse, if not I will bring one for you.

We could meet at Ridley's in Hyrum tomorrow morning, what time?
 
Sticksender, I think you and I are generally on the same page. A sprinkling of tags (one or two per species for raffle or auction per state) is probably fine as long as they bring in blockbuster six figure type numbers for wildlife. Even expos and banquets are fine as long as the marketing dollars taken for the tags are clearly separate from the marketing activities associated with promoting the venue or the event. I am sure that orgs like SFW provide a detailed marketing plan to ensure that the public money isnt inadevertantly used for something that might promote private interests, that is why I asked Birdman in an earlier thread to see the tag marketing plan.

I disagree with you on your tax basis argument. The draw tags have a monetary cost (the tag/license fees/postage, etc...) and a time and risk cost. The time cost can be converted into dollars and would need to take into account the number of applicants for that tag in the public draw, it reflects demand. There is also value associated with the risk that someone in the regular draw may never actually pull a tag or stay healthy enough to cash in. There is also an opportunity cost paid by draw applicants, they pass up the opportunity and pay a higher cost in time to try for a more desireable tag. The voucher is essentially a jump to the front of the line pass. The value of that pass needs to reflect the full cost in time, risk and dollars paid by the public to make that hunt opportunity available in the auction.

I see the public tag lottery as an open market where people pay with money and time currency. The auction is an open market where people can only pay with actual currency. The bottom line is that these tags are worth far more than the fair market value that the Utah DWR has allowed them to be valued at for tax purposes. The concept of initial investment, time and risk is used every day to evaluate business decisions. Those same core concepts can and should be used to evaluate fair market value for these tags.

This is kind of a Citizens in the Public Interest kind of issue in my opinion. For the DWR to have input in FMV value and also be a beneficiary of the proceeds seems like a conflict of interest to me. With so much participation from non-government groups and the associations some of those groups have with lobbying orgs, getting the numbers correct is important.
 
javi,

You seem to be pretty savy on this. Let me ask wouldn't the money spent only be tax deductible if the 501C3 were to have complete control and be the beneficiary of it? Since by rule 90% of the money is not intended to be left with the 501C3 how does it become tax deductible as a charitable contribution to begin with? 90% is spent knowing it will go to the DWR coffers for payment of an approved habitat project. Purchasing this voucher does not seem to be much different than the requirement to purchase a hunting license in order to secure a turkey tag. Is my hunting license/voucher tax deductible?

I also agree one of the most equitable ways of determining fair market value is an auction where an item brings the highest price available. These vouchers certainly have a higher value than the tag associated with them.
 
If the Conservation Permits carried some additional inherent value, such as they came with fully guided services, or they provided a longer season duration, or they allowed for the taking of multiple animals, or some other enhancement, one could perhaps make an argument against a full donation credit.

But in actuality, the CP's provide no more or less privileges than the corresponding draw tag. Even further, if you buy a CP, you can't hold a draw tag for the same species that season.

If the CP's and Draw tags provide the same privileges to their holder, boosting their basis value to auction price levels would mean the draw tags themselves are under-valued when purchased at the published DWR rates. This would make all public draw tag winners the recipient of capital gains, just like say, state lottery winnings. So a Draw Sheep tag that costs a NR 1518.00, while the same tag at auction sells for 72,000.00, would place the Draw tag winner subject to 70,482.00 in capital gains.
 
I believe there is a seperation. You are buying a voucher not the tag or a conservation permit as we call them. Nothing at all says I need to use the voucher for the tag.

Assume I am rich dude who is an anti hunter and want to do good for wildlife. I buy the voucher to protect the animal and at the same time provide a windfall for habitat work. I bought the voucher but do not have to redeem it. FMV was paid it was sold on an open market.

Another scenario. My brother is the Chapter chair for the local CO. Convinces me to protect his banquet from a loss on the tag. I buy the tag on the open market establishing FMV with no intention of redeeeming it.

When the CO has a guy in the back running the price at auction to meet a certain amount are they not creating market value of the voucher?


The voucher is the value not the tag, it allows me to do something that only I can do. Step to the front of the line, save an animal, help my brother etc. It has no coorelation to the tag price.

The other issue, how is this money considered used for a charitable cause?
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-24-13 AT 09:44PM (MST)[p]Mulepacker

would love to go but a little out of my range gotta try to help my daughter kill a turk in nephi in the am.
 
I disagree sticksender.

Would a season ticket holder that wins a lottery to acquire a couple of super bowl tickets for his home team be getting his tickets at fair market value if he paid face value for the tickets? He had to contribute and qualify as a season ticket holder and beat the lottery odds for season tickets. On average their were tens, maybe hundreds of applicants for every ticket. Overall, his contributions and the contributions of the non-winners contributed to the value of that ticket. He aquired his ticket on the open primary market. I think he paid fair market value in time and money.

How about someone that is loaded with cash, maybe a tech company owner that decides on Friday that he wants to see the game in two days. He is interested in seats in the same row as the season ticket holder (not much selection at this point). He goes to his favorite secondary market ticket scalper and pays 2000% of face value. Would this guy be paying fair market value? Based on the scarcity of the tickets and the timing of the transaction I would say he has paid fair market value.

Does the tax status of the auctioning group matter when it comes to fair market value of the asset auctioned. I would say no. I stand by my claim that big-game auction tags should not be tax deductible,it amounts to a discount in my opinion. A discount that is not offered to regular draw or raffle applicants.
 

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