Henry Mountain Deer

[Nev638]

How did the deer hunts go on the Henry Mountain unit go this year? Haven’t heard much from there on here lately.

 

[Bux n Dux]

Lots of 150-160 bucks killed. Some smaller than that. It’s certainly not living up to its reputation or hype currently

 

[elkassassin]

Now That The Top End/Tier Has Been Shot Out The Last Several Years They'll Be A Bunch Screaming for a Henry's PISSCUTTER Hunt!

Let's Cull the 4X3's!

Following Year:

Let's Cull The 3X3's!

Following Year:

GOOD GAWD,Did You see The Couple of Big 2 Points on the Henry's?

Let's Start a 2 Point Hunt!

Ya!

That'll F'N Fix it!

 

[ktg]

Let's Cull the 4X3's!

Following Year:

Let's Cull The 3X3's!

Excellent idea. LOL

 

[SanPitch]

Now That The Top End/Tier Has Been Shot Out The Last Several Years They'll Be A Bunch Screaming for a Henry's PISSCUTTER Hunt!

Let's Cull the 4X3's!

Following Year:

Let's Cull The 3X3's!

Following Year:

GOOD GAWD,Did You see The Couple of Big 2 Points on the Henry's?

Let's Start a 2 Point Hunt!

Ya!

That'll F'N Fix it!

They used too do a lot of management tags, they were cut a ton this year, or possibly even all the way, I’m not quite sure, but that was probably part of the problem that got us too where we are

 

[hawkbill]

You wonder where all the big Bucks went

 

[Tackdriver]

Poaching. Just like all the other units, in all the other states.

 

[hossblur]

So, you're telling me, that if we shut down a unit for years, then restrict tags on it, that didn't create a magical land full of 30", 200pt bucks for eternity?


We should DEFINITELY shut down more units and restrict more tags

 

[ridgetops]

All the units are down this year but I'm sure there's still plenty of 190"+ bucks to be hunted on the henries. Most people who draw that tag have no idea how to hunt that unit. I know I'd probably struggle to find the top end bucks if I'd never been there before. Since I've never been looking for deer on that unit, I'm sure it would take some time to figure things out.

 

[elkassassin]

Henry's Ain't No Different Than Any other Unit/LE Unit in the State!

Every Water/Weep is Covered!

The Apple Piles Ain't As Big as they Once Were!

Every Vantage Point is Covered!

And If Any Joe Blow Thinks He's Gonna Compete With what Goes on in These Units He's In For An Education!

All the units are down this year but I'm sure there's still plenty of 190"+ bucks to be hunted on the henries. Most people who draw that tag have no idea how to hunt that unit. I know I'd probably struggle to find the top end bucks if I'd never been there before. Since I've never been looking for deer on that unit, I'm sure it would take some time to figure things out.

 

[hunt30]

Poaching. Just like all the other units, in all the other states.

Do you have any evidence that the problem is poaching? The Henry’s certainly is struggling, but my opinion is that the 2 main problems affecting quality are the on going drought and technology. The deer herd on the unit has gone from approximately 2500 animals in 2015 to around 1000 animals in 2020. Looking at the data, fawn survival seems to be the main reason for the drop in overall #’s. That coupled with pervasive use of trail cameras and muzzleloaders extending their realistic effective range from 250ish yards to 500+ yards. Bows and center fire rifle have also become more effective over the last several years.

 

[ktg]

Henry's Ain't No Different Than Any other Unit/LE Unit in the State!

Every Water/Weep is Covered!

The Apple Piles Ain't As Big as they Once Were!

Every Vantage Point is Covered!

And If Any Joe Blow Thinks He's Gonna Compete With what Goes on in These Units He's In For An Education!

Just to stir the pot, ban outfitters and you'd see a lot more giant bucks and bulls.

 

[hawkbill]

You mean no more football teams chasing Bucks, Bucks being pressured all year. Oh come on.

 

[elkassassin]

There Ain't Plenty of 190" Bucks on The Unit!

If There Had Been Plenty of 190"ERS on the Unit Last Year Don't You Think a Bunch of Hunters Would Have Killed 200"+ Bucks This Year?

HINT:

It Didn't Happen!

All the units are down this year but I'm sure there's still plenty of 190"+ bucks to be hunted on the henries. Most people who draw that tag have no idea how to hunt that unit. I know I'd probably struggle to find the top end bucks if I'd never been there before. Since I've never been looking for deer on that unit, I'm sure it would take some time to figure things out.

 

[SanPitch]

Its hard too keep the incredible quality bucks that it once had with outfitters engulfing the whole mountain with their little guides and trail cameras. If we are being honest, if there is a buck that an outfitter wants to kill, they will kill it, when the highest quality bucks on the unit get killed each year, their genes will soon be lost, and we will be left with just the more average bucks.

 

[elkassassin]

I Agree!

And Next Year They'll Knock whatever is the Top End Out again next Year!

Its hard too keep the incredible quality bucks that it once had with outfitters engulfing the whole mountain with their little guides and trail cameras. If we are being honest, if there is a buck that an outfitter wants to kill, they will kill it, when the highest quality bucks on the unit get killed each year, their genes will soon be lost, and we will be left with just the more average bucks.

 

[ridgetops]

I Agree!

And Next Year They'll Knock whatever is the Top End Out again next Year!

Isn't that the guides job? And someone will pay over 100k to hunt the heneries again next year. And I'm sure they will be killing another 200" buck.

 

[elkassassin]

'A' Nother 200" Buck?

Maybe!

And What Did You Bring in to the Picture Ridge?

Yup!

MONEY!

What Has F'D Up Just about everything in this World?

$$$!

 

[ridgetops]

'A' Nother 200" Buck?

Maybe!

And What Did You Bring in to the Picture Ridge?

Yup!

MONEY!

What Has F'D Up Just about everything in this World?

$$$!

I don't like all the guided and auction tags that are given out as much as you but they won't be doing it if there weren't several 190" buck to be had. True?

 

[elkassassin]

Gonna Clue You In On Something Ridge That Is Really Sad!

The Henry Deer Herd Is Not Even Close To What it was a Few Years ago!

No Different than anywhere Else In Utah!

It Is AMAZING How Much Money People are Still Willing to Pay For These Tags/Hunts!

Here's My Look on the Unit!

Yes!

They Will Still Take a Couple Nice Bucks off the Henry's!

They Will More Than Likely Be Taken By Big Money Hunters using Outfitters & Guides!

More Than Likely they Will Be Harvested Early rather than Later!

There Are NOT numerous 190" Bucks Running Around on the Henry's!

We Need To Make a Trip down to the Henry's During The Rut Ridge So You Can Get an Idea Of What is Left come Rut Time & Then You'll See there Ain't Gonna Be Numerous 190" Bucks come the Following Year!

No!

I'm Not Saying There Aren't Any!

I'm Saying There Are Damn Few Left Even on the Henry's!

I don't like all the guided and auction tags that are given out as much as you but they won't be doing it if there weren't several 190" buck to be had. True?

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Ridge?

Re-Read Post # 2!

I'm Not The Only one Preaching the Truth Here!

Do You Not Remember Some of the Henry Buck Pics Posted a few/Several Years ago here on MM?

Remember the Buck Posted that was Like 40" Wide?

Show Me a Buck From TARDville This Year From Any Unit even Close To 40" Wide Excluding Alcatraz Island!

I'm Not Being Pissy!

I've been Going for 37 Hours & It's Damn Near Time To Bat an Eye!

 

[ridgetops]

Gonna Clue You In On Something Ridge That Is Really Sad!

The Henry Deer Herd Is Not Even Close To What it was a Few Years ago!

No Different than anywhere Else In Utah!

It Is AMAZING How Much Money People are Still Willing to Pay For These Tags/Hunts!

Here's My Look on the Unit!

Yes!

They Will Still Take a Couple Nice Bucks off the Henry's!

They Will More Than Likely Be Taken By Big Money Hunters using Outfitters & Guides!

More Than Likely they Will Be Harvested Early rather than Later!

There Are NOT numerous 190" Bucks Running Around on the Henry's!

We Need To Make a Trip down to the Henry's During The Rut Ridge So You Can Get an Idea Of What is Left come Rut Time & Then You'll See there Ain't Gonna Be Numerous 190" Bucks come the Following Year!

No!

I'm Not Saying There Aren't Any!

I'm Saying There Are Damn Few Left Even on the Henry's!

If I go down there and see several 170" class bucks in November. Don't you think many of them will be 190" + the following year if we get a good wet spring and summer? What I'm saying is because our LE units have limited tags, they will always have a chance to reload. People who say these limited entry units are being shot out are either not being truthful or are truly clueless.

 

[ridgetops]

Hey Ridge?

Re-Read Post # 2!

I'm Not The Only one Preaching the Truth Here!

Do You Not Remember Some of the Henry Buck Pics Posted a few/Several Years ago here on MM?

Remember the Buck Posted that was Like 40" Wide?

Show Me a Buck From TARDville This Year From Any Unit even Close To 40" Wide Excluding Alcatraz Island!

I'm Not Being Pissy!

I've been Going for 37 Hours & It's Damn Near Time To Bat an Eye!

I posted a picture of a buck this year that was 35"+. Probably not 40 though. I have heard of a general season buck that was killed this year that scored in the upper 200s. I also have a friend that has killed four 190"+ bucks out of the past six years and that same basin he hunts has produced over two dozen 190" + bucks in the past 10 years but hey, keep preaching how the sky is falling.

 

[slamdunk]

Do you have any evidence that the problem is poaching? The Henry’s certainly is struggling, but my opinion is that the 2 main problems affecting quality are the on going drought and technology. The deer herd on the unit has gone from approximately 2500 animals in 2015 to around 1000 animals in 2020. Looking at the data, fawn survival seems to be the main reason for the drop in overall #’s. That coupled with pervasive use of trail cameras and muzzleloaders extending their realistic effective range from 250ish yards to 500+ yards. Bows and center fire rifle have also become more effective over the last several years.

So we've lost 1500 deer, 80% being does, to trail cameras and long range weapons in 6 years on a unit that has a handful of buck tags?
Please explain ?

 

[hunt30]

Let me take another stab at explaining myself. The loss in overall numbers is most likely due to drought, but there could be other factors at play, or it could be something else entirely. Mothers that are stressed from drought often have poor fawn survival rates. Fawn survival has been abysmal the last few years. The overall deer population and fawn survival information is on the DWR website. Take it for whatever it’s worth. I’m not really sure where you came up with the 80% does number?

Top end bucks have taken a beating due to long range weapons and trail cameras. Because of the lack of overall number of new bucks being added to the herd in a yearly basis, there are less potential big deer available. These certainly aren’t the only factors at play. Hopefully I explained myself a little better this time. I’d love to hear other theories if you’ve got some.

 

[hossblur]

Is it just possible, the Henries aren't a deer producing Mecca? That perhaps, just maybe, Bess might be right?

For years, the Henries tag was the most coveted tag in Utah. Is it now?

There are guys that would take an oak Creek tag first. I'd take a Pauns.

It ain't just drought, the whole state was dry.

 

[elkassassin]

IF You Seen Several 170"ERS!

And IF We Had NON-Drought Conditions!

And IF The Bucks That Would Have Been 170"ERS This Year But Got Shot as 150"ERS would Have Lived!

When People Say Our Units are Being Shot Out They are Not Necessarily Wrong!

The Top Tier of Bucks & Bulls are Perty Much Being Taken Out No Matter What Size That Happens To Be!

I've Seen it With My Own Blind Eyes Ridge!

BE-F'N-LIEVE Me!

If I go down there and see several 170" class bucks in November. Don't you think many of them will be 190" + the following year if we get a good wet spring and summer? What I'm saying is because our LE units have limited tags, they will always have a chance to reload. People who say these limited entry units are being shot out are either not being truthful or are truly clueless.

 

[elkassassin]

So Upper 200"s?

As in 270"S?

280"S?

Upper 200"S Would be a Lone Mohican!

No,I'm Not Saying it Didn't Happen!

Hoping The HELL it did Happen!

You Needed To Venture in to Some of These LE Units years ago Ridge!

Then You'd Have a better Idea of How PISS POOR They are today!

It's Unbelievable How Many People There Are That Think Once they Draw that Coveted LE Tag Think they Should Be Guaranteed a Trophy!

But They Start Out with the Attitude of 200" or Bust!

After a Few Days of Hunting the 200" Figure gets Dropped Drastically But they Still Hold out for a few more Days!

Then with Just a Few Days Left Of Hunting Season The Number Really Goes Down & You Have Post # 2 above Happening in Full F'N Swing!

Not Gonna Argue What You & Your Friends Have Accomplished Ridge!

HELL,I'm Happy For You Guys!

But If You Haven't Seen the Decline In The Mule Deer Herd I'm Gonna Call You Kinda Blind!

And With that Last Sentence I'm Talking Both Does & Bucks AKA Total Deer Numbers!

I'd Hate To Have Niller & Others Thinking I'm Only Talking TROPHY Grade Here!

I posted a picture of a buck this year that was 35"+. Probably not 40 though. I have heard of a general season buck that was killed this year that scored in the upper 200s. I also have a friend that has killed four 190"+ bucks out of the past six years and that same basin he hunts has produced over two dozen 190" + bucks in the past 10 years but hey, keep preaching how the sky is falling.

 

[elkassassin]

 

[slamdunk]

"I’m not really sure where you came up with the 80% does number?"

It was a hypothetical number, but really close to what a buck to doe ratio actually is.
80% does, 20% bucks

And if you either know me and or watch my posts, I am fully aware of the numerous factors hurting our "herds" across the west, not just Utah alone.

Long range weapons and gadget hunting are not wiping out our herds, those are an entirely seperate issue we are facing.

 

[OldBallCoach]

So we've lost 1500 deer, 80% being does, to trail cameras and long range weapons in 6 years on a unit that has a handful of buck tags?
Please explain ?

That’s the fact that everyone keeps skipping over! People always give hunters too much credit for declining numbers and the hunting not being what it once was. There hasn’t even been close to 1500 tags given for the Henries total in the last 6 years. The main reason the # of high end bucks are lower right now is because the overall # of total deer is way down! Way more deer are being killed year round by vehicles and predators then by hunters. And then there’s the weather (winter kill and drought) and habitat loss to human encroachment especially in winter ground. A lot of folks, many on these forums, think that if tags were just cut or only short range weapons were allowed that magically the deer #’s would be like they once were. But It’s going to take a lot more then just that and some of it is out of our control.

 

[hunt30]

Long range weapons and gadget hunting are not wiping out our herds, those are an entirely seperate issue we are facing.

My opinions are specific to giant mule deer on the Henry’s. I completely agree that long range weapons are not wiping out our deer herds. They are really efficient at helping motivated trophy hunters be more effective at killing top end animals. This coupled with the fact that there has been very little recruitment has led us to where there’s fewer giant deer on the Henry’s. For the record, I’m fine with the advancements in hunting technology. What I’ve stated is simply my opinion after watching what’s happened specifically on the Henry’s over the last dozen or so years. As always, I’d love to hear others theories.

 

[SanPitch]

If I go down there and see several 170" class bucks in November. Don't you think many of them will be 190" + the following year if we get a good wet spring and summer? What I'm saying is because our LE units have limited tags, they will always have a chance to reload. People who say these limited entry units are being shot out are either not being truthful or are truly clueless.

No I don’t think so, most bucks don’t make it past 180 in their lifetime, let alone 190. It all has too do with genetics and like you said water (hint: the genetics aren’t like they used too be) if every 170 buck Ive seen turned grew 20 inches the next year there would be 190s running all over our LE units. I don’t think any of us are saying that the population is being shot out, but what I’m saying is the genetics are being shot out, if the guides kill almost all the big bucks each and every year, those genetics will not last long. And it’s been long enough.

 

[slamdunk]

That’s the fact that everyone keeps skipping over! People always give hunters too much credit for declining numbers and the hunting not being what it once was. There hasn’t even been close to 1500 tags given for the Henries total in the last 6 years. The main reason the # of high end bucks are lower right now is because the overall # of total deer is way down! Way more deer are being killed year round by vehicles and predators then by hunters. And then there’s the weather (winter kill and drought) and habitat loss to human encroachment especially in winter ground. A lot of folks, many on these forums, think that if tags were just cut or only short range weapons were allowed that magically the deer #’s would be like they once were. But It’s going to take a lot more then just that and some of it is out of our control.

You are 100% spot on Sir!?

 

[slamdunk]

My opinions are specific to giant mule deer on the Henry’s. I completely agree that long range weapons are not wiping out our deer herds. They are really efficient at helping motivated trophy hunters be more effective at killing top end animals. This coupled with the fact that there has been very little recruitment has led us to where there’s fewer giant deer on the Henry’s. For the record, I’m fine with the advancements in hunting technology. What I’ve stated is simply my opinion after watching what’s happened specifically on the Henry’s over the last dozen or so years. As always, I’d love to hear others theories.

Let me get this straight.
You agree we are losing top end "giant deer", yet you support advancements in technology and devices like FLIR?

 

[hunt30]

Let me get this straight.
You agree we are losing top end "giant deer", yet you support advancements in technology and devices like FLIR?

I’ve never given FLIR any thought. My comment was made in the context of long range hunting and trail cameras. I also never said I “support” advancements in hunting technology. I stated I’m fine with the rules the way they are. I’m also fine if restrictions are enacted on these advancements. Maybe I should have said I’m indifferent. I’m also not really worried how many giant deer are on the Henry’s. I was simply stating my thoughts on why things are as they are.

 

[slamdunk]

I’ve never given FLIR any thought. My comment was made in the context of long range hunting and trail cameras. I also never said I “support” advancements in hunting technology. I stated I’m fine with the rules the way they are. I’m also fine if restrictions are enacted on these advancements. Maybe I should have said I’m indifferent. I’m also not really worried how many giant deer are on the Henry’s. I was simply stating my thoughts on why things are as they are.

Your exact quote was "for the record, I am fine with the advancements in hunting technology"

 

[hunt30]

Your exact quote was "for the record, I am fine with the advancements in hunting technology"

By “fine” I intended indifferent. You stated I “support”, which is inaccurate. What’s your thoughts on the current situation on the Henry’s?

 

[slamdunk]

By “fine” I intended indifferent. You stated I “support”, which is inaccurate. What’s your thoughts on the current situation on the Henry’s?

I've spent a lot of time down there and have watched it tank.

After they closed it several years ago following the APR removal, they conducted a massive war on predators to help let the deer rebound during the hunting closure.

Existing bucks grew older and the desire to hunt the unit went nation wide and with no hesitation of how much money a tag would cost.
This all lit the fuse for "trophy hunting" as it is today....."money and limelight".

New tricks of the trade were discovered and implemented, as numerous outfitters were all competing for the top end bucks roaming the unit.

Advanced technology has exploded due to hunters needing an advantage.
Baiting, trailcams, FLIR, long range weapons and "babysitters" became the norm.
The best bucks didn't stand a chance, especially with the type of terrain and visibility it has.

Outfitters owned the mountain and DIY hunters were learning and catching on which has led to where now a 180" 4 year old buck is Top End"

That tells the story of where the "Giant Deer" have gone, but where has the loss of the 1500 missing deer gone to?
That remains the mystery.......

 

[elkassassin]

Have I Not For Several Years Said There Are 50+ Reasons Why?

That’s the fact that everyone keeps skipping over! People always give hunters too much credit for declining numbers and the hunting not being what it once was. There hasn’t even been close to 1500 tags given for the Henries total in the last 6 years. The main reason the # of high end bucks are lower right now is because the overall # of total deer is way down! Way more deer are being killed year round by vehicles and predators then by hunters. And then there’s the weather (winter kill and drought) and habitat loss to human encroachment especially in winter ground. A lot of folks, many on these forums, think that if tags were just cut or only short range weapons were allowed that magically the deer #’s would be like they once were. But It’s going to take a lot more then just that and some of it is out of our control.

 

[ktg]

The Henry's, at one time, had basically zero deer. I remember it because I had a bison tag in 1995 and on my entire bison hunt, we saw exactly 3 does. That's it. So how did it come to be the trophy producing machine that it has been? They closed it down, for 5 years if I remember correctly. (don't quote me on that.) And I believe the same of the Pauns? I don't recall. But I can tell you of the exact same story playing out in the Book Cliffs. I hunted the book cliffs every year since I was old enough to remember starting in the 70's. The decline started when they 'tested' 3-point or better out there. Wasn't long and it was the same as the Henry's in 1995. No deer. They closed it for 5 years. Magically, when they opened it back up as limited entry, there were record book bucks killed for several years. I'm thinking of building points till they decide to close down some unit somewhere for 5 years. I should have points to guarantee me a tag the first year it opens. Of course, I could also die before that happens.

 

[elkassassin]

Managed So Poorly That They Had To Close Several Units in Utah Completely Down!

So Somebody Answer This Question:

After The Units Were Closed Down!

They/The Deer Magically Bounced Back With No Other Changes?

Is That Not Proof that They Were Over Hunted & Decimated from PISS POOR MANAGEMENT?

But Then Again!

When You Close a Unit You've Put a Big Chunk of HELL-RIGHT In to Effect!

And No I Don't Think Any Unit Should Be Hunted Down Until It Has To Be Closed!

The Henry's, at one time, had basically zero deer. I remember it because I had a bison tag in 1995 and on my entire bison hunt, we saw exactly 3 does. That's it. So how did it come to be the trophy producing machine that it has been? They closed it down, for 5 years if I remember correctly. (don't quote me on that.) And I believe the same of the Pauns? I don't recall. But I can tell you of the exact same story playing out in the Book Cliffs. I hunted the book cliffs every year since I was old enough to remember starting in the 70's. The decline started when they 'tested' 3-point or better out there. Wasn't long and it was the same as the Henry's in 1995. No deer. They closed it for 5 years. Magically, when they opened it back up as limited entry, there were record book bucks killed for several years. I'm thinking of building points till they decide to close down some unit somewhere for 5 years. I should have points to guarantee me a tag the first year it opens. Of course, I could also die before that happens.

 

[slamdunk]

KTG.....I'm not sure where you were down there in 95 to only see 3 does.
I hunted that unit throughout the 90's and it had ridiculous numbers of deer and extremely high numbers of bucks.....like seeing bachelor groups of bucks numbering 15+ was common.
I killed some nice deer back when it was 3 point or better. It was not tough to kill a 180" deer with any weapon, any season.
Then they removed the APR and decimated the buck population.....I was there, I witnessed it.

 

[elkassassin]

I Witnessed it Too in the Book Cliffs!

SAD!

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Ridge?

I'm Posting This one For You!

This Would Be 2017 & Previous Years!

 

[coloradoman]

Odd
I helped a buddy kill a 216” deer there in 1996
I’ll look for pics
We passed up probably a dozen 180” type deer!

 

[slamdunk]

Odd
I helped a buddy kill a 216” deer there in 1996
I’ll look for pics
We passed up probably a dozen 180” type deer!

I agree.....it was far better in 95&96 than it is today!

 

[JakeH]

Managed So Poorly That They Had To Close Several Units in Utah Completely Down!

So Somebody Answer This Question:

After The Units Were Closed Down!

They/The Deer Magically Bounced Back With No Other Changes?

Is That Not Proof that They Were Over Hunted & Decimated from PISS POOR MANAGEMENT?

But Then Again!

When You Close a Unit You've Put a Big Chunk of HELL-RIGHT In to Effect!

And No I Don't Think Any Unit Should Be Hunted Down Until It Has To Be Closed!

Bess you saying the books deer herd has been over hunted the past 22 years since they opened it back up?

What's killed all the doe's bess?

 

[JakeH]

If this post isn't a flashing neon sign that hunters are not the cause of our current deer decline state wide I don't know what to tell you guys.

 

[coloradoman]

Right?

 

[ktg]

I agree.....it was far better in 95&96 than it is today!

Then why did they have to close it in 1999? (I don't remember the year myself, that's just what I took from an article I found.)

 

[slamdunk]

Then why did they have to close it in 1999? (I don't remember the year myself, that's just what I took from an article I found.)

Because after they removed the APR, it was all but shot out.
People flocked down there because the success rates were extremely high because now every buck was legal.
About 3 years of that was all it took to wipe it out, so it was closed.
Same thing happened in the Bookcliffs.

 

[slamdunk]

If this post isn't a flashing neon sign that hunters are not the cause of our current deer decline state wide I don't know what to tell you guys.

Right??
We're not killing does.....something else is.

 

[elkassassin]

Considering The Shape The Elk & Deer Herd is in & Has Been in,Yes!

I Don't Blame Just One Item & You Know That JakeH!

I Don't Believe Pressuring Game Herds From Mid August Through January & February with their GAWD-DAMNED Cows Hunts has Helped Anything!

And That F'N SPIKE Hunt everybody is So Proud of is a F'N Disgrace!

As I've Stated For Many Years!

There's 50+ Reasons Why!

You Think That Paved Road & Everybody Driving 75+ MPH has Done Any Damage out There?

No It's Not The Only Reason!

But It Adds Up!

Bess you saying the books deer herd has been over hunted the past 22 years since they opened it back up?

What's killed all the doe's bess?

 

[elkassassin]

One More Thing JakeH!

A Few Years Ago They Swore The Lions Were Wiping The Book Cliffs Deer Out!

I Called BS!

I Said The Coyotes Were Wiping By Far More Deer Out than Lions!

They Hammered The Lions!

How'd That Pan Out?

The Drought Along with 50+ other Reasons surely Hasn't Helped!

But I'll Let All the MM Biologists Blame Just One Item!

 

[elkassassin]

Here's another Deal To Think about:

When I Was Younger The Average Body Weight of Mule Deer Were Double or More than what they are now!

These SCRAWNY Little Bastards of today are Not a Tough Animal at All!

Don't Tell Me A Bigger Animal Isn't Tougher than These Paperweights of Today!

 

[ridgetops]

No I don’t think so, most bucks don’t make it past 180 in their lifetime, let alone 190. It all has too do with genetics and like you said water (hint: the genetics aren’t like they used too be) if every 170 buck Ive seen turned grew 20 inches the next year there would be 190s running all over our LE units. I don’t think any of us are saying that the population is being shot out, but what I’m saying is the genetics are being shot out, if the guides kill almost all the big bucks each and every year, those genetics will not last long. And it’s been long enough.

So your saying all those guys looking for that 220"+ buck on the heneries because that's what the unit is known for in the past. These guys might be looking in vain and shouldn't he passing up a 190" or 180" buck if they see one. Interesting. I'm afraid many of these guys that have been waiting over 20 years are expecting multiple 200" bucks running around and if they look hard enough they should find a 220" + buck but when that doesn't happen, they end up shooting a 150" meat buck on the last day. Then word gets out that must be all that's available and there's no older bucks to be had. Which is complete nonsense! People do need to lower their expectations and standards on these LE units.

 

[elkassassin]

For Years!

I've Told Everybody To Stick around!

It's Gonna Get Worse!

Was I Wrong?

 

[ridgetops]

For Years!

I've Told Everybody To Stick around!

It's Gonna Get Worse!

Was I Wrong?

Ow many years? When did you start saying that?

 

[elkassassin]

Hey Ridge?

You Think Shooting Them 150" Bucks is Doing a Trophy LE Unit any Good?

You Know The Answer!

But I Will Tell You This:

There Are NOT As Many 220" Bucks on the Henry's As You Think There Are!

So your saying all those guys looking for that 220"+ buck on the heneries because that's what the unit is known for in the past. They guys might be looking in vain and shouldn't he passing up a 190"-180" buck if they see one. Interesting. I'm afraid many of these guys that have been waiting over 20 years are expecting multiple 200" bucks running around and if they look hard enough they should find a 220" + buck but when that doesn't happen, they end up shooting a 150" meat buck on the last day. Then word gets out that must be all that's available and there's no older bucks to be had. Which is complete nonsense!

 

[elkassassin]

Just look back to 2017 & Prior Years!

Then Chalk Up All The Big Buck Pics,Stories & Kills Since Then!

Sure there's been a few!

But Not Even F'N Close to What It Was!

 

[elkassassin]

Beating a Dead Horse For How Long Now?

This Long:

 

[OldBallCoach]

Then why did they have to close it in 1999? (I don't remember the year myself, that's just what I took from an article I found.)

I believe it was 1996 when they first closed both the Books and Henries. If you look at the DOW mule deer population estimates (not that anyone trusts them but that’s all I have to go on) for the last 30 years, 1994,95 & 96 are the 3 lowest estimated deer populations state wide in the 30 year graph. The winter of 1992/93 was historically one of the worst winters for deer in the last 50+ years. The deer herds needed all the help they could get at that point!

 

[slamdunk]

I can believe a rough winter on the books, but not the desert of the Henry's.
Both units were shot out of bucks the years following the APR removal, nothing will convince me otherwise because I was there, I was a part of it and saw it with my own eyes.
Hundreds and hundreds of hunters killing everything with antlers.
It went from 3 point or better to 5" or better and destroyed in 3 years.

 

[elkassassin]

Sshitt PUNK!

I Seen Nubbins Bucks Killed in the Book Cliffs!

Some Of The STUPIDEST Sshhiitt I've Ever Seen!

 

[slamdunk]

Sshitt PUNK!

I Seen Nubbins Bucks Killed in the Book Cliffs!

Some Of The STUPIDEST Sshhiitt I've Ever Seen!

I don't care what anyone says.....they ruined those units by removing the APR's.
Had they left them on but made them LE's, they wouldn't have had to shut them down for 5 years and displace thousands of hunters to other units.

 

[elkassassin]

Exactly PUNK!

You've Heard Me Say it Before!

After They Closed Several Units!

The Peolpe/Hunters Moved Camp & Went To Other Suffering Units & Pounded Them As Well!

The Very F'N Worst Management I've Ever F'N Seen & Witnessed!

I don't care what anyone says.....they ruined those units by removing the APR's.
Had they left them on but made them LE's, they wouldn't have had to shut them down for 5 years and displace thousands of hunters to other units.

 

[JakeH]

One More Thing JakeH!

A Few Years Ago They Swore The Lions Were Wiping The Book Cliffs Deer Out!

I Called BS!

I Said The Coyotes Were Wiping By Far More Deer Out than Lions!

They Hammered The Lions!

How'd That Pan Out?

The Drought Along with 50+ other Reasons surely Hasn't Helped!

But I'll Let All the MM Biologists Blame Just One Item!

I'm not talking about the elk herd, I'm in full agreement they have F'ed up the elk herd out there. I think the conditions that have hurt the deer herd has effects on the elk herd too buy the spike hunt has absolutely decimated the bull population out there.

As far as the deer are concerned, they have not over hunted them, and they have been cutting tags out there for awhile. But if the Henry's are trending down as bad as the bookcliffs then that tells me there is something else going on that is effecting the deer herds all over not just these units. Both are very limited and neither have had doe hunts for many many years.

I've been trying to do my part on the coyote's out there, and all those lions off the landscape damn sure isn't hurting anything. I find it amusing you won't acknowledge that cats can and alot of times are a huge contributing factor, as they will kill the doe's and left unchecked are a huge problem. I bet you didn't have near the number of cats back in the 60's and 70's as you do now. Is wiping out the cats part of HELL YEAH?

 

[slamdunk]

Speaking of lions.....
I spoke with top man on the Hounded association this morning over breakfast and he told me they are currently doing a study with the DNR and BYU.
He has captured and collared 11 lions from the mouth of American Fork canyon across the Wasatch front to maple mountain for study.
11 lions on that short of a span!!

 

[elkassassin]

So JakeH?

You Don't Know How Hard The Lions Have Been Hunted in the Book Cliffs?

I'll Load You Up On Fresh Snow & We'll Count Tracks All Day & See How Many Fresh Tracks You Can Show Me!

Yes!

Lions Eat Deer!

But Once Again!

Alot of People Blaming JUST Lions!

The Coyotes In The Book Cliffs Are Doing 20 Times More Damage Than the Lions Are!

They've Hunted The Lions WAY Down From What They Were!

Did You See The Deer Herd Expand out There?

There's Only One Way You'll Control Coyotes & They Ain't Gonna Let You Do it!

Got Me a Yote This Morning!

 

[southernutahhunter]

Didnt they still have doe land owner tags and depredation hunts when these units opened back up?

 

[slamdunk]

Coyotes are doing far more damage than people realize.
I saw it first hand in Wyoming this year.
Dead fawn skeletons literally everywhere I walked, and had to wear earplugs at night to damper the non stop howling.....it was insane!
It's not just Wyoming, its here in Utah and everywhere else.

 

[JakeH]

So JakeH?

You Don't Know How Hard The Lions Have Been Hunted in the Book Cliffs?

I'll Load You Up On Fresh Snow & We'll Count Tracks All Day & See How Many Fresh Tracks You Can Show Me!

Yes!

Lions Eat Deer!

But Once Again!

Alot of People Blaming JUST Lions!

The Coyotes In The Book Cliffs Are Doing 20 Times More Damage Than the Lions Are!

They've Hunted The Lions WAY Down From What They Were!

Did You See The Deer Herd Expand out There?

There's Only One Way You'll Control Coyotes & They Ain't Gonna Let You Do it!

Got Me a Yote This Morning!

I know how hard they hit it, I have many friends that have hounds and hunt out there.

I say keep it up, they need all the help they can get.

I will keep doing my part on the coyote's.

 

[JakeH]

I know how hard they hit it, I have many friends that have hounds and hunt out there.

I say keep it up, they need all the help they can get.

I will keep doing my part on the coyote's.

And you have never herd me blaming just Lions.

 

[slamdunk]

In last years Neonatal study done by the MDF and DNR, bear kills in the Bookcliffs were higher than lion kills.

 

[Dangbig]

I don't care what anyone says.....they ruined those units by removing the APR's.
Had they left them on but made them LE's, they wouldn't have had to shut them down for 5 years and displace thousands of hunters to other units.

Same on the Wellsville mountains but I don’t think it took 3 years they wiped it out fast

 

[Weiserbucks]

In last years Neonatal study done by the MDF and DNR, bear kills in the Bookcliffs were higher than lion kills.

This has been well known to serious bear hunters for decades. Come fawning time, every pile of bear crap you see will be full of red and white hair. I've never set foot in the Books, but black bears and newborn fawns go together like grizz and salmon runs.

 

[elkassassin]

I Know You are Not JakeH!

But there are a Bunch of Hunters Blaming Just One Item for the POOR Deer Herd!

Yes Bears Will Eat a Few!

But Again!

Not the Only Issue Here!

And you have never herd me blaming just Lions.

 

[hossblur]

In last years Neonatal study done by the MDF and DNR, bear kills in the Bookcliffs were higher than lion kills.

It would be interesting if they theorize.

I've read a bunch about, WAIT FOR IT, ........climate change, and it's affect on calving season in elk. That because the "green wave" doesn't slowly materialize, but comes and goes rapidly with fast retreating snow, it has changed estrus cycles in cows.

The result being calves not all hitting the ground in the same small time period, where just the number of new calves, meant bears can't get them all. But instead spreading out births, giving bears more time to digest, and snag another.

I wonder if they are finding similar with deer there?

 

[RutnBuck13]

Bess!? You do realize you are arguing with a guy that between him and his buddies are wounding 5+ bull elk or buck deer every year right? But hey if they kill 20 coyotes a year I guess they set the world right in their eyes… right?

 

[Lymanhh]

So JakeH?

You Don't Know How Hard The Lions Have Been Hunted in the Book Cliffs?

I'll Load You Up On Fresh Snow & We'll Count Tracks All Day & See How Many Fresh Tracks You Can Show Me!

Yes!

Lions Eat Deer!

But Once Again!

Alot of People Blaming JUST Lions!

The Coyotes In The Book Cliffs Are Doing 20 Times More Damage Than the Lions Are!

They've Hunted The Lions WAY Down From What They Were!

Did You See The Deer Herd Expand out There?

There's Only One Way You'll Control Coyotes & They Ain't Gonna Let You Do it!

Got Me a Yote This Morning!

I personally feel coyotes are a major problem. They glory days of deer hunting that I've never seen happened when war was waged on coyotes. I've never looked at data but I've heard old timers talk about hunting and After the 1080 ban and pretty much no government trappers is when the stories of poor hunting slowly start to become more frequent until we have what we have now. After the late 70s and 80s fur boom that's when it really tanks. I think it's alot if issues and no telling that there is a end all be all answer to the problem. But it's my opinion that when it comes to predators coyotes are hands down the hardest on deer.

 

[nocwalker]

We’ll. I guess I should not put in for the one non-res tag anymore??

 

[elkassassin]

Well!

I Hope The HELL They Ain't Wounding That Many Animals?

But It is another Equation of the Big Picture These Days!

Bess!? You do realize you are arguing with a guy that between him and his buddies are wounding 5+ bull elk or buck deer every year right? But hey if they kill 20 coyotes a year I guess they set the world right in their eyes… right?

 

[Dangbig]

I personally feel coyotes are a major problem. They glory days of deer hunting that I've never seen happened when war was waged on coyotes. I've never looked at data but I've heard old timers talk about hunting and After the 1080 ban and pretty much no government trappers is when the stories of poor hunting slowly start to become more frequent until we have what we have now. After the late 70s and 80s fur boom that's when it really tanks. I think it's alot if issues and no telling that there is a end all be all answer to the problem. But it's my opinion that when it comes to predators coyotes are hands down the hardest on deer.

We never used to see coyotes in the late 70s and 80s now they are everywhere

 

[slamdunk]

We never used to see coyotes in the late 70s and 80s now they are everywhere

Thats because they were controlled by government trappers with the use of "1080" back then.

 

[elkassassin]

There's Only One Way You'll do enough Damage To Coyotes To Help Deer Herds!

And In This Screwed Up World We Live in they Ain't Gonna Ever Let It Happen Again!

Because:

It Might Kill a Few F'N Magpies!

Or a Few Crows!

Might Even Take An Eagle out on Occasion!

So That Sshitt Ain't Happening!

 

[Cam@strawberry]

Anyone ever consider that maybe it’s your own personal expectations that are the problem not management? With regard to bucks, size, and numbers specifically.

 

[slamdunk]

Anyone ever consider that maybe it’s your own personal expectations that are the problem not management? With regard to bucks, size, and numbers specifically.

Most of us have higher expectations yes, only because it's common knowledge and fact that our herd numbers are definitely down, as is quality.
As for the Henry's, it's extremely evident, even the outfitters pounding it say it's plummeted.
Not just quality, but quantity of "deer".

 

[Cam@strawberry]

What I’m saying is what the Henry’s was, was unsustainable. it created an unrealistic expectation. It’s like the elk herd 2006-11 really, 07/08/09 being the focus. A variety of factors, some management some out of the control of humans combined to create this boom of absurd trophy hunting conditions.

Henry’s might just be the same, and saying we are in a ‘down year’ doesn’t change that. LE management kind of runs in a boom bust cycle and if you get bad conditions on the down cycle, well, it gets rough.

What I’m saying is in no world should we think that managing for a 180”+ deer is sustainable let alone 200”, a correction was coming and that correction combined with drought and predators is hitting hard.

It’ll rebound, closer to the mean this time, and everyone will say ‘the henry’s aren’t what they used to be, but they did kill a couple 220” deer this year so maybe it’s coming back.’

 

[newhunter]

That’s the fact that everyone keeps skipping over! People always give hunters too much credit for declining numbers and the hunting not being what it once was. There hasn’t even been close to 1500 tags given for the Henries total in the last 6 years. The main reason the # of high end bucks are lower right now is because the overall # of total deer is way down! Way more deer are being killed year round by vehicles and predators then by hunters. And then there’s the weather (winter kill and drought) and habitat loss to human encroachment especially in winter ground. A lot of folks, many on these forums, think that if tags were just cut or only short range weapons were allowed that magically the deer #’s would be like they once were. But It’s going to take a lot more then just that and some of it is out of our control.

Very well stated.
We all need to pressure game departments to manage for increasing populations. by addressing vehicle/predators kills, habitat loss.

 

[hossblur]

even the outfitters pounding it say it's plummeted.

That group is a pretty big factor as well

 

[slamdunk]

even the outfitters pounding it say it's plummeted.

That group is a pretty big factor as well

100%

 

[muledeer]

Saw a lot of bucks in the 150-170 range 1 probably 180 that was broken by Stanton pass, while bison hunting. I also heard multiple coyotes in the mornings and evenings

 

[Lymanhh]

We never used to see coyotes in the late 70s and 80s now they are everywhere

Yep and a good caller or trapper may kill only 75 a year. Mean while those 1080 boys were doing that a week or better. My great grandpa was a. Government trapper and was using 1080. I've heard stories of how deadly that stuff was. Stories he'd 1080 a carcass and next morning have 12 dead Coyotes within yards of the carcass.

 

[elkassassin]

Check Your PM muledeer!

Saw a lot of bucks in the 150-170 range 1 probably 180 that was broken by Stanton pass, while bison hunting. I also heard multiple coyotes in the mornings and evenings

 

[Buckbrush]

How did the deer hunts go on the Henry Mountain unit go this year? Haven’t heard much from there on here lately.

Almost 100 posts and not one picture of a Henrys buck? Dang

 

[slamdunk]

Almost 100 posts and not one picture of a Henrys buck? Dang

That in itself tells the story...

 

[elkassassin]

Not Sure What Was Harvested off the Henries This Year?

But Nothing Like What was Harvested a Few Years Back!

Sad Part is!

Locals From This Area Go Down During The Rut & It Looks FAN-F'N-TASTIC Compared to Here!

SAD!

 

[fullthrottle]

If we keep buying off on the crap the DWR is selling and lowering our expectations like we have for the past 10-15 years, 20 years from now we won’t have a huntable population. Can’t believe hunters are willing to except lowering expectations as a remedy. Feels like every year the DWR is lowering gmu objectives. That’s the easy way out. They will never get it right if they continue to use the hor$e$hit charts and graphs to estimate populations rather than real world numbers. That goes for all species. Predator & prey.

 

[elkassassin]

Ya!

Joe Blow Finally Pulls His LE Buck Tag after Umpteen F'N Years!

220"+ Or Bust is the Attitude!

3 Days in to the Hunt!

It Drops to 180"+!

With 3 Days of Season Left!

Watch TF Out 150"-160" Bucks!

But Year After Year The Cream Of the Crop Is Wiped Out!

Even Though The Cream of the Crop Gets Smaller Each Year!

If we keep buying off on the crap the DWR is selling and lowering our expectations like we have for the past 10-15 years, 20 years from now we won’t have a huntable population. Can’t believe hunters are willing to except lowering expectations as a remedy. Feels like every year the DWR is lowering gmu objectives. That’s the easy way out. They will never get it right if they continue to use the hor$e$hit charts and graphs to estimate populations rather than real world numbers. That goes for all species. Predator & prey.