Help and advice with poor choices

[ToddT]

I am certain that many will have no sympathy for me, as I dove into my situation, with literally no research.

Anyway, I drew an elk tag about three years ago and after waiting six years, it wasn't quite what I expected. Granted it wasn't a bad hunt, it simply wasn't the hunt that I would have expected after waiting for six years. So I swore off Arizona, due to having to buy a license each year and then waiting five to ten years to draw a tag that may not live up to it's expectations. Fast forward the three years, and finances had changed to the better, only slightly, but better nonetheless. So I dove back in. But after looking over other's advice, it seemed that many areas, and hunts could be had in only a couple or few years, that were almost as good, and possibly somewhat better than those in the mid-tier groups, that were taking from, those, previously mentioned, five to ten years.

So without researching thoroughly, I simply looked over the stats, and chose a few units that last year had between 10 and 20 percent of drawing, as well as a 50 percent harvest success or better. And what do you know, first I pulled a 22 north late season elk tag, the latest season. It was my second choice and my dad and I pulled it with zero points. I guess that was a plus, as no points were wasted, but there is $650 in question. So I quickly began researching, I found that hunt used to be pretty good, but with larger tag numbers, the hunt had deteriorated. Some insist that large bulls are still around, while others are adamant that any legal bull should be taken. However, I don't want simply ANY bull. With that said, I am not a died in the wool and hard core trophy hunter, but I am insistent on an adult animal. Score wise, I pretty much draw the line around 280, so you can see, my expectations aren't over the top.

Next up, was the deer draw. Now, I did have six accumulated deer points from when I was applying every year, and thought, with six points I may just pull a decent, fun deer hunt. So again - apparently I learned nothing from my elk experience - I half-heartedly looked over a few statistics and saw some rhetoric concerning the monster bucks in unit 12B West. I had no illusions that it would be an easy hunt, but I did feel that most any hunt could produce a really nice buck, so I listed the blackpowder hunt as my first choice - which would be better than my second choice - my second choice was the early rifle. That is another lesson in itself, I really wasn't schooled in exactly how Arizona conducted it's drawing. So, I have been selected, and it was rather early on in the draw, so I assume that I drew in the bonus point pass, which would mean that I would have had to be a top bonus point holder, which could only mean I drew the early season rifle hunt in 12B West, so again, I thought not all is lost, and began to research more thoroughly. And as anyone who is familiar with the unit is aware of, most paint that first 12B West rifle hunt as a meat hunt. It seems that harvest is pretty high at around 60 percent, but I had no idea that so many would shoot a little forked horn buck. As far as desires, I pretty much draw the line around 160 inches, so again, I don't believe that my expectations are extreme, but from what I have found, even a somewhat respectable hunt is difficult to find.

So, here I set with almost a thousand dollars worth of tags, with very little hope. Sure it can be said, it's not all about the trophy, but if I simply want the satisfaction of hunting and being with friends and family, I can hunt locally with my four year old and wife. Granted I will be with my dad on the elk hunt, but he is a pretty hardcore trophy hunter, and get's bored and anxious rather quickly, if things are looking very promising.

The purpose of all of this, is hoping that someone can offer promise, and some information, advice. Or, and I am certain a few may chime in with ill or comical intentions, but would I actually be better off, cutting my losses, and making other plans and chalking it up to a somewhat costly lesson, and be content that along the way, I helped out the wildlife commission - which I do feel is a worthy cause, but I am not in a financial position to simply hand out cash, no matter the cause.

Thanks for any advice.

 

[azhuntin]

You can kill great animals on both hunts with the proper amount of scouting. So the question is do you have the time to put in to find them in each of the units you drew? 12b is a fun hunt, but the fence along the highway in Utah has affected it some what. A lot of small bucks, but there are some good ones in there if you know where to look. On that hunt hope for early snow, quite a few years back the early hunt was great, because that particular year we had a lot of early snow and it pushed the deer off the kaibab early and weather predictions are for an el nino this winter, so maybe that will work out for you. 22 north has some good bulls, but you need to put in the time. Good luck and If i were you and had the time I would go hunt and have a great time.

 

[sagebrush]

Good advice right there.

Plan on spending some time or hire a guide. A 160 buck and a 280 bull are both very realistic goals but you will need to spend some time scouting and hunt hard.

 

[Utah400Elk]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-12-14 AT 05:30PM (MST)[p]I put in for 12 AE early and 12BW early. I drew one of them and have hunted both units before on the early hunt.

I saw three bucks in the 165-170 inch range on the 12BW early hunt. I wanted a bigger deer so I didn't shoot anything. This year I am taking my 6 year old son son I will shoot a 165-170 inch buck. There are 180 inch deer in 12BW but they are HARD to find. I did see a guy shoot a 190 inch deer in the middle of the day by dead mans pocket. We were driving to the chained area and watched a 4runner stop in the road in front of us. The driver jumps out and runs of the road and we hear a shot. We stop and he had killed a nice 190 class buck that was following doe. The buck was 50 yards off the main road chasing a doe (november 3). Just shows that you never know when you will see a big buck in that unit.

I saw a huge 190 + class buck in 12 AE early last year the day before the hunt started. It was a father son hunt and my son, at only 5, had a very hard time hunting in the burn. The hike was very hard for him because of all of the fallen trees. I had told him he could choose the deer that we shot that year. We had seen a lot of small bucks just south east of Jacob Lake. My son asked if we could hunt in the national forest near Jacob Lake. I wanted to go back after the huge buck I had seen but more important to me was my son having a great hunt. We shot a little 2 point that he picked and we stalked into. He thought it was the best hunt ever. I hope I got the 12AE tag but will be just as happy with 12BW.

There are great deer in both units. It is a tough hunt but will be a lot of fun. This year I have told my son we are only going to shoot a big deer. We have a cow elk hunt on San Juan that will be a meat hunt and he is very excited.

Not sure if this helps at all or not ?

 

[PleaseDear]

Believe in yourself my friend!

This surely isn't your first rodeo hunting elk/deer.

How has your son recovered from his military-War wounds??

Thanks man,

Robb

 

[tooele]

It sounds to me my friend like you need a better hunt consultant for Arizona with your particular wants and goals. Sure a nice buck and bull are possible in both Units, but not realistic. I have hunted 12 b west 7 years in a row, both early and late and I can tell you the early hunt is no walk in the park and 22 north elk late, a whole different story. You picked some tough ones for trophy potential.

22 north late: Realistic expectation--branch antlered bull 250 inches if you hunt hard

12 bwest below 150 inch

I believe it is hard to hunt 12 bwest and be successful on big deer without a couple of years hunting, as it is a migratory unit and takes some figuring out and can only be figured out when deer are already there.

22 north over hunted. Hit the wilderness areas.

If you want a big animal hire a guide. That's the best advise I can give you, otherwise your depending on luck.

You have set yourself up for big time frustration. Sorry man, but its the truth. Sure someones going to come on here and say how if you hunt hard you can do it. Again, possible, but not likely. Don't want to burst your bubble just trying to give you real advise.

Good Luck.

T

 

[Idcurs]

I have both of these units my self and with buddies 12b and 22 N.Have taken many bulls over 320 in 22N.On 12b early it is a little tougher to find over 150 but doable.I shot a 196 there 3 years back.Both of my boys shot bucks there last year 166-187 day two and day three both on the early hunt.I have hunted it many times over the last 7-9 years and we have always that were in the seen bucks 170-190 range.

 

[ToddT]

Rob, I appreciate the moral support. I agree, not my first rodeo, BUT, with some of my decisions here lately, I would wonder, even myself.

Thanks for asking about my son. He is doing a bit better, but he is still pretty much disabled. He is on a handful of medications and his right hand still shakes uncontrollably, and his balance is really poor, but like I said, he is slowly getting better, but it has been a year and a half now, and it seems that progress is almost stopped. But, I heard tales from others who said it took three to five years for them, or someone they knew, to get back to normal after such an accident. Basically, we are all just thankful he is alive, as it was touch and go for about a week.

One more thing, he was in the military, and in Afghanistan, but his accident wasn't military related. He was in a car wreck after returning home.

Tooele, you got me there. Actually, I know what units to apply for, to get what I want, the problem is, those units, as I mentioned in my original post, take, or have taken, anywhere from six to 15 years to draw. Plus with zero points for elk, I felt like we had no chance to draw. To decide on a unit or units, I simply looked at the draw success, as well as harvest success and went from there. When I think of Arizona as a whole, I think of quality hunting, so it never really crossed my mind that an abundance of hunters in unit 12B would be shooting fork horns. I had no illusions that there were monster bucks behind every bush, but I figured that the bulk of those hunters would be taking decent four points, somewhere in the 140 - 150 range as an average. As for the 22 north late elk, some old information claimed it to be a really fun, and possibly good hunt. However, it seems that has changed dramatically in the past six to eight years, basically since game and fish started issuing so many tags.

From what I gathered, and maybe someone could give advice, the last late elk season in 22 north, is generally better than the earlier seasons due to migration - I am certain this relies solely on weather, etc. As far as 12B West, I really dropped the ball on that one, again, I knew that I would not have the remotest chance of drawing a late season tag, and thought the early tag would be somewhat of a resemblance of the late hunt, but it seems the more I learn, it most likely will not.

Suggestions have primarily been, scout a lot, or hire a guide, and honestly, neither is an option, due to finances. So any other advice would be greatly appreciated. I am also contemplating, cutting my losses and not wasting any more money on the hunt itself. That would be a costly lesson, BUT, much cheaper then the more expensive lesson of two full trips, with very little success. What is sad is, I am certain that there is someone who would love either tag, but I cannot transfer the tags, if I could, that would certainly be a thought.

I have read that if I want a good buck in 12B to hunt the west side. From what I understand, I may not see a deer for a few days, but then, I may run into a good buck. So that might be what I end up doing - I am pretty used to hunting in areas where I see very few to no deer each day.

 

[booter96]

LAST EDITED ON Jul-15-14 AT 07:09PM (MST)[p]Sir...Give me a call i can answer your questions And provide info...Dave 602-228-1719

 

[sagebrush]

Too bad hiring a guide is not an option. I have a friend that guides in 22 and his clients kill 300 inch bulls every season. If you decide you don't want to do one or both of your hunts, you can donate the tag to Hunt of a Lifetime and a kid with a life threatening illness will get to use it.

 

[tooele]

Oh I would still probably hunt it. Here is my take on the hunt after a few years of doing 12b:

On the early hunt the west side just doesn't have very many deer. There are a few resident deer that are scouted and hunted by the local guides. It would take a lot of time to actually locate one. If you hunt it you may go multiple days without seeing a deer.

The east side is picking up a lot of migrating deer on the early hunt. Deer are coming from the Utah border and spreading south. You will see between 20 and 100 deer a day depending on how you want to hunt. We average seeing 20 bucks a day. most are two points. People will be shooting 2 points and spikes. Don't expect to see a 190 inch deer. Most people think a 170 inch deer is 190, so you'll hear lots of 190 stories, but not reality or you'd see them all over in the magazines. A 150 plus buck is a shooter. Hatches wife from muley crazy killed her first 200 inch buck on the unit on the early hunt a couple years a go, the story is in their magazine. Even they who live in the unit, had trouble finding a 190 inch buck. Most affective hunting for the bigger deer on the East side is by hunting water holes. The water holes are hunted hard and there is a lot of competition. So chances aren't always great you'll get the water you want. Tons of people road hunting. I would avoid that, most are road hunting after day 1, as you see lots of deer, but thick junipers make it real tough to kill what you see. The road hunting gets real bad and the dust is thick. If you could get out there 3 to 4 days before the hunt and stay the whole hunt it would be a good idea. I would take the 12 b west over 22n any day. you should kill a bull on the 22n if you can shoot long range and know a little bit about elk hunting.

 

[tooele]

Thats all the info I will share on a public forum. Pm if you want to discuss anymore

T