Founder's bill is up on the website.

If it passes and becomes effective in 2018 it looks like Founder will either have to apply for an outfitter's or guide license in Wyoming or risk violating the law. If he's caught doing it for remuneration without doing that since it's a misdemeanor it's doubtful that he would be extradited from Utah, but if he was stopped anywhere in Wyoming he could be in deep dodo if his name was on the "wanted" list. I'm sure he'll be real happy when he sees this thread!
 
I could be in trouble if this passes. I have been known to accept a dinner, a sandwich, cookies or even a Cherry Pepsi for helping some non-resident hunters out. Pass it and I might end up in the slammer.

just sayin...mh
 
I'm on the committee?s email list, so I seen it days ago. I've already sent all the legislators emails explaining why the bill is unconstitutional. I would be completely shocked if it passed. I really enjoy digging into this stuff and the law, and based on everything I've pulled together, I just can't see it happening. However, states do pass unconstitutional laws on occasion. If they do, then I may try to find a group who believes in First Amendment rights and see if I can get help funding a challenge.

At this point, it's the trampling on my right to publish my lawfully acquired knowledge that has me bothered. It's the fact that a state wants to control what I say. Ridiculous.

I'll be sharing my knowledge one way or another this year. I expect to find some big bucks. Hopefully a handful of 190+ slugs.

What do you all think? Will the bill pass? Let's hear some opinions. It?ll be interesting to see. No other laws, other than national security stuff, exists that dictate what someone can or can't publish. Wyoming could be the first state to begin controlling what people get to say to others.

Let's hear thoughts.......

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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>However, states do pass unconstitutional
>laws on occasion.

This is correct and one that has weathered the storm for decades is the statute that gives a private organization, with an exclusive male only membership, 80 antelope licenses. That would be the One Shot Antelope Hunt.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-17 AT 09:55AM (MST)[p]IMHO there is no way that bill is unconstitutional whether you think it is a violation of your free speech or not! It doesn't limit what you can do or say to anyone regarding where a big buck is UNLESS you get paid for said information. A state has full authority to control the game animals within the boundaries of that state and that is all that Bill is attempting to do to lessen the kill rate of the animals it has authority over. I'd hazard a guess that with the climate the way it is now just on saving mule deer as much as possible all over the western states, that it will pass and become law. You may not think it has any effect when you state that only two bucks that you have been paid for were taken, but if what you're allowed to do grows by leaps and bounds it could certainly have an effect when tied in with long range shooting, all the upgraded optics we now have, etc. I'm guessing it has the backing of various conservation organizations and for sure WYOGA and it's members, as witnessed by Wiley and his article! If it passes and becomes law, I'm sure you can find an attorney or three that would take your case, but you'll spend a lot more money and lose than you'll ever make selling those packages of animal whereabouts! You asked and that's my take on it!
 
Well, we'll see. As I've said before, Freedom of Speech doesn't only apply to speech or expression that involves no compensation. Supreme Court Judges have made that very clear. The vast majority of magazines, newspapers, internet sites and television programs are financially supported. Government can't dictate what The Wall Street Journal publishes because The Wall Street Journal charges people to buy their newspaper.

I understand the state owns the wildlife, but ownership of something doesn't give you, I or the state the right to dictate what is said by others about things we own. You own your dog, but no law will ever fly that allows you to decide what others say about your dog.

"...the first Amendment means that government has no power to restrict expression because of its message, its ideas, its subject matter, or its content." - U.S. Supreme Court Justice Turgood Marshall


>LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-17
>AT 09:55?AM (MST)
>
>IMHO there is no way that
>bill is unconstitutional whether you
>think it is a violation
>of your free speech or
>not! It doesn't limit
>what you can do or
>say to anyone regarding where
>a big buck is UNLESS
>you get paid for said
>information. A state has
>full authority to control the
>game animals within the boundaries
>of that state and that
>is all that Bill is
>attempting to do to lessen
>the kill rate of the
>animals it has authority over.
> I'd hazard a guess
>that with the climate the
>way it is now just
>on saving mule deer as
>much as possible all over
>the western states, that it
>will pass and become law.
> You may not think
>it has any effect when
>you state that only two
>bucks that you have been
>paid for were taken, but
>if what you're allowed to
>do grows by leaps and
>bounds it could certainly have
>an effect when tied in
>with long range shooting, all
>the upgraded optics we now
>have, etc. I'm guessing
>it has the backing of
>various conservation organizations and for
>sure WYOGA and it's members,
>as witnessed by Wiley and
>his article! If it
>passes and becomes law, I'm
>sure you can find an
>attorney or three that would
>take your case, but you'll
>spend a lot more money
>and lose than you'll ever
>make selling those packages of
>animal whereabouts! You asked and
>that's my take on it!
>


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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As much as I hate what he is doing, I think Brian is right about his 1st Amendment rights. I certainly don't think his information compares to any of the extreme exceptions, like yelling "fire" in a crowded room, and may therefore be protected speech.

A possible alternative to this bill, would be to regulate those using his information to hunt, just the same as regulating weapons, when we can hunt and so forth.
 
Now when I pull my tag Founder will you send me the GPS cord. where you lost that Button off your coat and I will try and find it for you when I'm up there.
LOL SURE is going to be hard to prove.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-17 AT 12:44PM (MST)[p]If I was a legislator I'd be asking the question "should the act of selling wildlife coordinates require licensure?" Should this form of KNOWLEDGE be regulated as a "professional" service? The intent of this bill says, yes it should. EVERY form of professional business requires the act of SHARING one's knowledge. But what forms of knowledge based business's should require professional licensure? You can be a doctor, lawyer, veterinarian, engineer, surveyor, etc... and can share your professional knowledge with anyone, its your 1st amendment right, but in any of these "fields of knowledge" you cannot practice in the State of Wyoming without being licensed by the State or else you will be penalized. The medical, law, veterinarian, engineering, surveying and outfitter commission boards oversee who is practicing in the state and have to give approval to who is/will be practicing in the state. I don't see this bill as stomping on one's 1st amendment rights, but it is requiring those that want to participate in the practice of selling information of publicly owned wildlife to be licensed by the State.

So, my next question is, if this bill passes, is the WYBOPG (fixed) going to give an outfitters licensed to those that just want to sell wildlife information without actually guiding anyone? My first hunch thinks, hell no. I don't believe that's how they want Wyoming Outfitters characterized. Interesting topic for sure....
 
>So I hunted Wy 102 deer
>last year. now if you
>draw the tag I can
>not tell u were the
>deer hang out?????


No, you can tell anyone you'd care to, but not for money unless you get licensed like the outfitters and guides are.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-17 AT 12:32PM (MST)[p]Good post r2t! However, FYI WYOGA does not issue licenses and you don't have to be a member of their organization to be an outfitter or guide in Wyoming. Licensing is overseen and required by the state of Wyoming through their Wyoming Board of Outfitters & Professional Guides. Their website is: outfitters.wyo.gov
 
Should someone who writes a book about their life experiences have some sort of license in every state they speak of in the book?

Information is shared on this site everyday, I make about 1 cent each time a page is viewed. Should I need some sort of license in any state people share information about?

I understand permitting and licensing and all that, but first of all, I don't do business in Wyoming. I visit there yes, and acquire knowledge while there, but business dealings and publication takes place in Utah where I have required license.....business license.

I think if you dig into those professions you speak of, you'll discover that the requirement for a permit or license has little or nothing to do with them imparting their knowledge to others and more to do with where they conduct business, where they meet with clients, etc.

If I travel to Idaho for a law degree, then return to Utah to practice law, do I need an Idaho license because my knowledge was acquired there?

Brian Latturner
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Brian, IMHO nothing you are coming up with, especially your response to the post by r2t, holds water. Those people he mentioned have oversight by the state and are licensed because they have to show proof they are legitimate professionals in their various occupations to protect the public. To answer your last question, no you would not need an Idaho license. You would need to be licensed by the state of Utah or wherever else you wanted to hang your shingle and to get that license you would have to show that you meet that state's criteria so that the public is assured you know what you're doing. The individual state(s) may or may not allow a person who got a law degree in ID to practice in their state depending on how/where they got the degree and whether the requirements were less stringent for that degree in ID than their state.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-17
>AT 12:32?PM (MST)
>
>Good post r2t! However, FYI
>WYOGA does not issue licenses
>and you don't have to
>be a member of their
>organization to be an outfitter
>or guide in Wyoming.
>Licensing is overseen and required
>by the state of Wyoming
>through their Wyoming Board of
>Outfitters & Professional Guides.
>Their website is: outfitters.wyo.gov
>


Thanks TG! Fixed it.
 
Those rates seem rather high MH! Not sure I could put up that kind of payment for a map to a 190" mule deer! Well, maybe just a Pepsi. But a Pepsi AND a sandwich? Heck no! :D
 
Ok, everyone, lets hear some examples of a U.S. citizen being required to have a license to give out information for a fee. This might settle the question of free speech.

Remember, information only, no services or goods involved.
 
>
>If I travel to Idaho for
>a law degree, then return
>to Utah to practice law,
>do I need an Idaho
>license because my knowledge was
>acquired there?
>

If you don't want to "practice" your profession in Idaho then no. This bill is a question of licensure. A person could not have any one of the professional licenses I listed from the State of Wyoming and go "practice" their knowledge in a neighboring State without being licensed in said neighboring State. When you have a medical, law, engineering, etc.. license for the State of Wyoming, you may do business in the State of Wyoming, within State boundaries. But one cannot cross State boundaries, to go do business of the same "practice" in another State and bring back that information to the State they are licensed in, without being licensed in said other State. Some States are real easy with certain "professions" allowing reciprocity for licensure... Others are real difficult....making one take there State specific
exam(s)....yuk yuk...when the hell do we find the time to do that..
 
IMO, it is the state's way of saying they own and control the management of the wildlife of the state, and can regulate commerce related to it.

If I'm reading it correctly, info can be shared as long as there is no "remuneration" (So there goes your Pepsi MH!). Or, remuneration can occur if one is a licensed outfitter. Just the way I'm reading it.

BTW, how much does it cost to be a licensed outfitter in WY? Guessing it isn't a big deal to an outfitter with lots of clients, but to a one-of guy just making a buck on the side, it could be a lot.

IMO, anyone that thinks this practice is having a detrimental impact on the herd is delusional.

Interesting discussion for sure.
 
You don't even need a particular license to share medical, law or investing information. Advice, yes. Information, no.
And those are a much bigger deal than where a deer was seen 2 months ago.


>Ok, everyone, lets hear some examples
>of a U.S. citizen being
>required to have a license
>to give out information for
>a fee. This might settle
>the question of free speech.
>
>
>Remember, information only, no services or
>goods involved.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
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>BTW, how much does it cost
>to be a licensed outfitter
>in WY? Guessing it
>isn't a big deal to
>an outfitter with lots of
>clients, but to a one-of
>guy just making a buck
>on the side, it could
>be a lot.

Here ya go to answer your question of fees:

Page 23 of 24CHAPTER 5 LICENSE FEES Section 1. Fees Generally. (a) License fees are: (i) Outfitter license fee: $600 (ii) Full Term Professional Guide license fee: $145 (iii) Temporary (14-day) Guide license fee: $70 (b) New Applicant Fees (in addition to the license fee) are: (i) New Outfitter Fee $1600 (ii) New Professional Guide Fee $25 (c) Administrative Fees (i) Faxed/E-mailed license fee ? Professional Guides (for $20 Emergency licenses): (d) All fees are non-refundable.
 
Founder,

If you love reading up on law, then I suggest you read up on the constitution! This in no way violates anyone?s rights. Also, you aren't publishing information, you're SELLING IT!!! BOTTOM LINE!

In addition, if your facinated by law, then why are you breaking it? Have you paid your taxes yet on any of the income you made selling scouting packages? No, no you haven't!

Man, you are something else....
 
I ready don't have a dog in this fight so my comments are not intended to take a position, one way or the other. But...... there may be some precedent set by the State of Alaska. I have no idea how it really works or how the regulation is written, but after hunting there and inquiring about hunting in Alaska, the residents in Alaska are very reluctant to discuss where people should or shouldn't look for animals.

I could have easily misunderstood or misread their reluctance to discuss specifics, such a fishing lodge owner, that rented boats for salmon fishing and bear hunting but because he was not licensed to hunt bear, he said the Alaskan regulation outlawed him from even telling people that rent his rooms and his boats where they might find a black bear. Others, in more stubtle ways, did much the same.

At the time seemed like some kind "restricted speech" rule to me, but a closer look in may prove otherwise.

DC
 
Ok. Well, we shall see. Sounds like you sure know your stuff. LOL
I'm not publishing the information or paying taxes. Man, you got me. LMAO


>Founder,
>
>If you love reading up on
>law, then I suggest you
>read up on the constitution!
> This in no way
>violates anyone?s rights. Also,
>you aren't publishing information, you're
>SELLING IT!!! BOTTOM LINE!
>
>
>In addition, if your facinated by
>law, then why are you
>breaking it? Have you
>paid your taxes yet on
>any of the income you
>made selling scouting packages?
>No, no you haven't!
>
>Man, you are something else....


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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In my opinion none of this would be an issue or concern to anyone if it wasn?t being pushed by outfitters in the state trying to keep exclusive rights similar to how they've managed to lock people out of hunting the wilderness areas in the state. These outfitters give far more advantage to the hunter then someone simply buying a scouting package. When you go on an outfitted hunt you have a guide to hold your hand and actually find the animal for you. All you have to be able to do is hit your target. I'm guessing these outfitters are feeling fairly threatened of loosing business due to these scouting packages. I hate seeing any new more restrictive laws being passed anywhere as I feel we have far too many as it is.
 
Founder, if this passes and I'm in your shoes. I would simple post up coordonates for all the outfitters favorite spots free of charge. That would fix them.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-13-17 AT 08:33PM (MST)[p]I think everyone should post up the GPS locations to all of Robbs hunting locations. Or maybe just start naming all the basins he's been seen hunting.
 
If Wyoming did away with point averaging then Founder wouldn't be hunting G every year (I doubt he would scout much if he didn't have a tag) and Outfitters wouldn't be hooking wealthy clients up with max points holders.
[font face="verdana" color="green"]
Jake Swensen
 
I just play a lawyer on the internet.

If you publish the code to my garage, and my car disappears, would I not have grounds to sue you? Or have you charged as an accessory?

Wyoming owns the herds. If you publish the coordinates, and deer numbers plummet. Or, if info was used by a poacher, would that not be similar?

Seems it would be easier for wyoming to outlaw commercial business from wildlife on public ground. Covers guides and founder. Still don't understand how businesses get to sell a public resource they pay nothing for.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I have run a freebie Buddy Hunt for Wyo bow elk for years and years now with fellow Bowsite members.

Jeez.....if I get a cold beer from 1 of them will I be in violation!?

Way to go Brian!! haha

Maybe they will have a Utard Cellblock ~~

Robb
 
>I have run a freebie Buddy
>Hunt for Wyo bow elk
>for years and years now
>with fellow Bowsite members.
>
>Jeez.....if I get a cold beer
>from 1 of them will
>I be in violation!?
>
>Way to go Brian!! haha
>
>Maybe they will have a Utard
>Cellblock ~~
>
>Robb

They do have a utard cellblock, **** they made it a state. Problem is people keep escaping...

《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-17 AT 06:04AM (MST)[p]>I have run a freebie Buddy
>Hunt for Wyo bow elk
>for years and years now
>with fellow Bowsite members.
>
>Jeez.....if I get a cold beer
>from 1 of them will
>I be in violation!?
>
>Way to go Brian!! haha
>
>Maybe they will have a Utard
>Cellblock ~~
>
>Robb

Robb

Outfitters would have you believe that if you trade hunts with someone you are a "pirate" outfitter or even if you take someone hunting, use your vehicle and they buy your gas that makes you guilty. I would like to see them try and prosecute that.

Several years ago, the Game Warden's Assoc was looking to make certain game violations into felonies. The bill brought before the legislative committee included outfitting without a license, describing trading or giving things other than money, which wasn't the real intent of the legislation. It was targeting poachers. I testified the bill would make me a felon because my buddy from Kansas hunts with me in Wyoming and I with him in Kansas. A senator spoke up and said a long time nonresident friend of his, hunted with for years and one year gave him the gift of a rifle. Indeed he said, would that make him(the Senator) a felon? The bill died.

What Founder is doing, disgusts many of us because he is taking money for it. It threatens the outfitters, who for decades have sought out legislation to keep anyone from "helping" nonresident hunters to the point that those hunters would be in violation for using an unlicensed "outfitter". If Founder sells these guys info and then helps them in the field, which I believe he has on occasion, he is already violating existing law and so are the hunters. Selling just the info and doing nothing else I believe is protected by free speech, just as he claims. But I am no lawyer and don't understand commerce laws which could be Founder's only undoing.
 
Easy fix. Draw a map. Attach pictures. List the GPS coordinates. Sign it. And date it...June 30, 2018 :D :D
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-17 AT 07:47AM (MST)[p]Lawyering again .

Curious founder. What would stop me from paying you, then claiming I saw nothing, and suing you for fraud? Are you forced to carry insurance? Is there any limits on what you do?(by you I mean your "industry")? I mean would you do real time info? GPS tracking? Drone flying(technically your not hunting).

Do you have a first amendment right? As an individual sure. Not sure how that applies to commercial business. There are restrictions, not sure a doctor giving you bad info and you dying or getting sick is protected free speach by the Dr.

I guess, like all the other guys here I'm trying to figure out why. Is the money really that good? And beyond that, who is the useless, lazy turds that pay for this? As technology improves will you set up a service where you carry and set up rifles so the " hunter" can remotely fire them? Or is the "its legal" mantra be your company motto?

Guess I'm naive on this one, I thought guides sitting on animals before season was about the saddest thing I'd heard of. Sorry founder, but this is sadder.

Yet another example of "the hunting industry" helping to destroy what SUPPOSEDLY it loves.

I just don't get founders mindset. I go to the mtn to get away from business. To have a refuge from it. How do you sit up there, and scheme a way to commercialize it? How does something like this enter ones mind?

"Gawd this is beautiful, no cell phone, no cars, beautiful animals, I need to figure a way to profit from it. I need to whore it out." I will never get that mindset.



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
So if I trade my knowledge for hunts and vacations, then it's all good? Cash for groceries or gas is evil though.
You?ve traded your time and information for a hunt, but I'm the real problem because I'd rather trade my information for money to buy groceries and not a hunt??? Funny........

BTW - I've never hunted with a consulting client. Only met one in person.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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Oh yes, next up is injecting the bucks with a tracking device, then use drones with mounted grenade launchers to sneak and shoot them while I bask in my consulting riches at the beach with topless super models serving me drinks..............
Posting ridiculousness is fun!


>LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-17
>AT 07:47?AM (MST)
>
>Lawyering again .
>
>Curious founder. What would stop
>me from paying you, then
>claiming I saw nothing, and
>suing you for fraud?
>Are you forced to carry
>insurance? Is there any
>limits on what you do?(by
>you I mean your "industry")?
> I mean would you
>do real time info?
>GPS tracking? Drone flying(technically
>your not hunting).
>
>Do you have a first amendment
>right? As an individual
>sure. Not sure how
>that applies to commercial business.
> There are restrictions, not
>sure a doctor giving you
>bad info and you dying
>or getting sick is protected
>free speach by the Dr.
>
>
>I guess, like all the other
>guys here I'm trying to
>figure out why. Is
>the money really that good?
> And beyond that, who
>is the useless, lazy turds
>that pay for this?
>As technology improves will you
>set up a service where
>you carry and set up
>rifles so the " hunter"
>can remotely fire them?
>Or is the "its legal"
>mantra be your company motto?
>
>
>Guess I'm naive on this one,
>I thought guides sitting on
>animals before season was about
>the saddest thing I'd heard
>of. Sorry founder, but
>this is sadder.
>
>Yet another example of "the hunting
>industry" helping to destroy what
>SUPPOSEDLY it loves.
>
>I just don't get founders mindset.
> I go to the
>mtn to get away from
>business. To have a
>refuge from it. How
>do you sit up there,
>and scheme a way to
>commercialize it? How does
>something like this enter ones
>mind?
>
>"Gawd this is beautiful, no cell
>phone, no cars, beautiful animals,
>I need to figure a
>way to profit from it.
> I need to whore
>it out." I will
>never get that mindset.
>
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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10 years ago if I would have told you guys would sell GPS and Google earth info on where to find a deer, you would have said the same thing.

10 years ago would we have needed to outlaw drones?

15 years ago if I told you guys would leave cams tied to trees that they could watch from their phones, you'd say the same.

How about guys hauling ballistic computers around to shoot deer? You'd laugh at that to, I mean "who is carrying that much phone cord so they can dial up the internet"?

But I noticed in your deflection, you didn't address my question. Which is WHY? Why would you want this as a business? Especially when your other business is celebrating hunting, why would you want to corrode it?


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
How dare people innovate! How dare they have jobs they want to do? Those things interfere with how you think things should be. It's just wrong!!! What's the world come to when things aren't as you think they should be. Us SOB?s are everywhere messing up your ?correct? world. Blah!!!

Why? Cause I want to. I like looking for deer and backpacking. And mostly just to piss you off......lol

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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>But I noticed in your deflection,
>you didn't address my question.
> Which is WHY?
>Why would you want this
>as a business? Especially
>when your other business is
>celebrating hunting, why would you
>want to corrode it?

That is exactly what I've been wondering when Founder already has this website as his money maker and now decides to go out and sell information where the big deer are! Why not just go out and enjoy the time in the high country like he says he loves to do and leave the money making to the website? This so-called "hunting industry" and what it has led to is so far from what us older guys grew up with on what hunting is really about that it's sickening! "Free speech" my rear end!
 
>How dare people innovate! How dare
>they have jobs they want
>to do? Those things interfere
>with how you think things
>should be. It's just wrong!!!
>What's the world come to
>when things aren't as you
>think they should be. Us
>SOB?s are everywhere messing up
>your ?correct? world. Blah!!!
>
>Why? Cause I want to. I
>like looking for deer and
>backpacking. And mostly just to
>piss you off......lol
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!

Innovation? That's your goal? So when I ask if you'd set up remote firing guns, your answer is yes. They are innovation.

Here's the difference founder. Your a "scab". You think you've found a clever way to do what outfitters do, but without that pesky license. Without that expensive insurance. And you wonder what the guides are pissed at? That's it. They are pissed they set up legit businesses, and your in there working "under the table". That's not innovation.

But the real answer is you don't care. The truth that we all know is we CANT be successful. If we are all successful, the animals go extinct. You don't care. You care that you get paid. That's all. Your not some first amendment warrior(you delete posts on your own site all the time). Your not some great innovator pushing the realms. Your a gut who doesn't want to deal with what business actually is, regulation, insurance, liability, you just want to be paid.

At least be honest. Don't hide behind the first amendment. Don't call out a legit business( I greatly dislike the entire modern outfitting business)

Where do u draw the line? Is your business model to find grey areas in the law and exploit them? Where do you draw the line?
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Founder has definitely found robb's g spot but robbs not liking it!

Rumor has it founder loves and leaves. No snuggles...


《《《《《《AWESOME》》》》》》
 
Guess you've got me pegged. Darn it. Can't pull the wool over your eyes. LOL
I'll run right out and get a license that doesn't exist, and insurance I don't need........ No, I'll just quit doing what I like doing so you're happy. Maybe you can send a list of approved professions. LOL ... you make me laugh. Good stuff.........


>>How dare people innovate! How dare
>>they have jobs they want
>>to do? Those things interfere
>>with how you think things
>>should be. It's just wrong!!!
>>What's the world come to
>>when things aren't as you
>>think they should be. Us
>>SOB?s are everywhere messing up
>>your ?correct? world. Blah!!!
>>
>>Why? Cause I want to. I
>>like looking for deer and
>>backpacking. And mostly just to
>>piss you off......lol
>>
>>Brian Latturner
>>MonsterMuleys.com
>>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>>on Facebook!
>
>Innovation? That's your goal?
>So when I ask if
>you'd set up remote firing
>guns, your answer is yes.
> They are innovation.
>
>Here's the difference founder. Your
>a "scab". You think
>you've found a clever way
>to do what outfitters do,
>but without that pesky license.
> Without that expensive insurance.
> And you wonder what
>the guides are pissed at?
> That's it. They
>are pissed they set up
>legit businesses, and your in
>there working "under the table".
> That's not innovation.
>
>But the real answer is you
>don't care. The truth
>that we all know is
>we CANT be successful.
>If we are all successful,
>the animals go extinct.
>You don't care. You
>care that you get paid.
> That's all. Your
>not some first amendment warrior(you
>delete posts on your own
>site all the time).
>Your not some great innovator
>pushing the realms. Your
>a gut who doesn't want
>to deal with what business
>actually is, regulation, insurance, liability,
>you just want to be
>paid.
>
>At least be honest. Don't
>hide behind the first amendment.
> Don't call out a
>legit business( I greatly dislike
>the entire modern outfitting business)
>
>
>Where do u draw the line?
> Is your business model
>to find grey areas in
>the law and exploit them?
> Where do you draw
>the line?
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
There's no outfitting license in Wyoming? Outfitters aren't required to be insured?

I've read your thoughts on LR, on drones. Am I wrong in thinking you don't like them? Why? Explain the difference in scouting via drone, or scouting via Brian? Timeframe? So you won't do real time scouting? You won't, if paid go up and scout, drop a call to a client and sit? You know, like the OUTFITTERS do with cats?

You can buy drop camp hunts. Complete with video, pics, scouting reports. So you do the same, minus a tent.

Pretty tight razor your walking not wanting to be considered an OUTFITTER simply so you don't have regs/rules/liability they do.

How do you report your income to IRS, state of Wyoming/Utah? LLC? Sole proprietor? Is this a business?


This sad. Sad that guys would buy info. Sad you somehow think your a 1st amendment champion. Sad another paid gun is able to push a law. Sad we need a law.

It is funny to watch you two try to convince folks of bs. You both try and pretend you care about the resource, but in reality you care ONLY about how to capitalize it. Like Wal-Mart fighting with Target.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I'm pretty sure that many outfitters pay other hunters or friends a finders fee's if the find a trophy animal. The same hunters or friends of the outfitter's that receive compensation don't have any licence.
Just a thought. I guess it's not a two way street.

I'm not a fan of outfitters trying to monopolize.
 
I asked Robb on his web site how his long range shooting classes were helping the mule deer herd but they deleted my post??
 
I know. Brian's got a price sheet. Business description. Set prices along with detail of what your buying.

This the irony. Robb dude pushing a law to stop it, knowing full well he pays finders. Founder setting up a business to sell info, trying to pretend he's like your buddy who gave you a tip.

In fairness to Brian. I'm being too harsh, I thought (I know that's on me),from reading his thoughts, he would be against this kind of thing. He always seemed more about protecting and celebrating hunting, not simply capitalizing it.

Yeah I know he makes money here, and he should. But this is different, and he knows it, thus the "first amendment" defense. Not " its good for the hunter and the animals" defense he can use for this site.




"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
>
>http://legisweb.state.wy.us/2018/Introduced/HB0005.pdf

I think this whole conversation comes down to one thing, pimping "mule deer" for money. The one thing we all agree on is our enjoyment of one of the greatest animals around. We all have grown up enjoying being around, hunting, viewing mule deer and we all want this to continue for us and for the next generation. Money has brought an element into the equation that I think most true hunters despise and has been (in my opinion) the main downfall of mule deer quality across the west.

I remember the pure art of hunting growing up, I do miss that as it seems that this is lost in the "business" of hunting.
 
You guys are late to the party...

https://www.prehunt.com/map/?filter=map&state=NV&ad_type=coordinate

39809a.jpg
 
Quite the surprise that someone who runs a website meant in large part for hunters to share information to increase their chance of success is sharing his information for compensation. (Rolling my eyes) SURPRISE!

And I'm proud of it. I'm glad that I could help those who've gathered any information on this site and used it to improve their chance of success. That's part of what this site is for.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-17 AT 12:28PM (MST)[p]>Quite the surprise that someone who
>runs a website meant in
>large part for hunters to
>share information to increase their
>chance of success is sharing
>his information for compensation. (Rolling
>my eyes) SURPRISE!
>
>And I'm proud of it. I'm
>glad that I could help
>those who've gathered any information
>on this site and used
>it to improve their chance
>of success. That's part of
>what this site is for.
>
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!

IMHO your posts are getting worse with every one you type Founder. Geez, now you go and post that you're PROUD of what you're doing!!! I think many members now have a whole new perspective of why you run this website and what you really stand for and it appears it's strictly for the commercialization of hunting and that, Sir, is not good or becoming of you!! I hate to say that, but I hope you I'm just using my freedom of speech under the First Amendment that you so greatly espouse!
 
Worse?!?! Darn it, and try so hard to be the man you need me to be..... ha ha

Seriously, I'm very proud of what I do, what I've built and who I am. Can?t wait to do more of what I do.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-17 AT 01:10PM (MST)[p]Brian
Thank you for Monster Muleys! I have learned an enormous amount of information and meet some great people many whom have become good friends!

My opinion on selling information is you aren't outfitting or guiding a client so you shouldn't need an outfitting or guide license. At worst case maybe just a simple business license in WY!
 
>Worse?!?! Darn it, and try so
>hard to be the man
>you need me to be.....
>ha ha
>
>Seriously, I'm very proud of what
>I do, what I've built
>and who I am. Can?t
>wait to do more of
>what I do.
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!

Put your name on it then. Build a site, like the one above, advertise it.

You don't, because...

The taxmen would be interested.

You don't want to draw to much attention or the states might try to shut it down.

This is your site. Everyone here can see your sponsors and advertisers. And, we try to support them for supporting you.

Funny how you haven't been so in the open with something your proud of. Wonder why? Outfitters, guides, onyx, go hunt might not be so quick to support their competition?

Forget the anti s. I don't know how to explain this to casual hunters.

But I notice again so I didn't answer where you draw the line. What separates u from a drone? Besides mechanical parts?
And I'm pretty sure your anti drone. Obviously anti flying. Anti LR. What separates this?
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
So if this passes what about undercover G/F that wants to "buy" your 190" deer package...or do you sell just to who you know?
 
Just shaking my head more and more at the ridiculous responses Founder is posting in what should be a serious thread that was started!
 
The simple truth is that the state of Wyoming doesn't have a problem with the process of selling coordinates of mule deer bucks; they just want to regulate who can do it legally. I would have thought the outfitters would have tried to make the practice illegal for anyone.

The simple answer that I'm sure Brian is aware of (if the legislation passes) would be to find an outfitter that would sponsor Brian as one of his guides. Brian could work out an arrangement with the outfitter and pay him a small percentage of his earnings.

My question is as follows. The way that the legislation is written it seems like any guide could venture into Region G (even if he is not permitted to guide there) and determine the locations of some bucks and then sell the information. Did I miss something?

Paul
 
>Just shaking my head more and
>more at the ridiculous responses
>Founder is posting in what
>should be a serious thread
>that was started!

My thoughts exactly, Top gun.
 
>So if I trade my knowledge
>for hunts and vacations, then
>it's all good? Cash for
>groceries or gas is evil
>though.
>You?ve traded your time and information
>for a hunt, but I'm
>the real problem because I'd
>rather trade my information for
>money to buy groceries and
>not a hunt??? Funny........
>
>BTW - I've never hunted with
>a consulting client. Only met
>one in person.
>
>Brian Latturner
>MonsterMuleys.com
>LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
>on Facebook!


Did you miss this part Brian?

" Selling just the info and doing nothing else I believe is protected by free speech, just as he claims."
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-17 AT 05:38PM (MST)[p]I have a sneaky suspicion Wy won't sell him a guide licence even if he agrees to it?? Or if he goes under a company already licenced they'll be crucified by WYOGA.
 
But to do so Brian would then be a business entity, or a subcontractor. Kinda seems for all his talk about how proud he is, he's trying to keep a low profile.

Taxman probably would be interested. So would sponsors on this site that might have conflicts with whomever contracted with him.

I still am amazed by the entire concept. How this is fair chase I don't know. How this fits with hunters being conservationists, I don't get. Look how far down the wormhole the "me first" mantra is dragging this sport.

And no founder. When Elkass wants the hot tip on where a spike is on the Manti, he doesn't scratch me a $1500 check. So ya,it is surprising that this site, now there's a expectation of payment for helping out one another.

Wonder how many of you are gonna post your scouting pics. Better get a copyright?



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Well, they can't outlaw the information from being shared totally or outfitters wouldn't be able to hire anyone to scout for them. That's kind of an important part of being an outfiter, knowing where some big bucks are. You know?

But the bill sure would leave lots of loopholes. It won't pass though. No way. There were enough smart legislators last year to toss it out, and there will be this year as well.

It really is simple. It's me sharing publicly available information/knowledge I've lawfully acquired in the normal course of living, no different than thousands of books and reports on various topics and subjects in this country. What I do really is simple.

As for me, I plan to be scouting this year whether the bill passes or not. Just like last year, I'll be scouting for the outfitter. Like I've said, whether the bill passes or not really doesn't hurt me emotionally or financially. My big issue is having someone else tell me which of my personal experiences and what knowledge I can share with others. If it passes, I'd probably look into a facial challenge. Then it might cost me dollars. I'd see what one of the groups who work to protect the First Amendment have to say.

If they passed this law, what's next? Maybe they'd outlaw me from sharing any wildlife info. at all about WY. Who knows?

It?ll be fun to hear what the legislatures pushing the bill will say to try and fool the others. Last year there was some real BS being thrown around.


>The simple truth is that the
>state of Wyoming doesn't have
>a problem with the process
>of selling coordinates of mule
>deer bucks; they just want
>to regulate who can do
>it legally. I would have
>thought the outfitters would have
>tried to make the practice
>illegal for anyone.
>
>The simple answer that I'm sure
>Brian is aware of (if
>the legislation passes) would be
>to find an outfitter that
>would sponsor Brian as one
>of his guides. Brian could
>work out an arrangement with
>the outfitter and pay him
>a small percentage of his
>earnings.
>
>My question is as follows. The
>way that the legislation is
>written it seems like any
>guide could venture into Region
>G (even if he is
>not permitted to guide there)
>and determine the locations of
>some bucks and then sell
>the information. Did I miss
>something?
>
>Paul


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-17 AT 06:22PM (MST)[p]Seems what we have here is lack of understanding of human nature and what motivates us, as humans.

I don't think MM is owned or operated so we can all help each other, for the joy of helping.

I don't believe it is here so we can make friends and meet people.

I don't believe it is here to give hunters a voice.

I don't believe it's here help people learn how or where to hunt.

While the site might be doing all off those things and more, that's not its purpose for existence, it's a revenue source for the owner. Without income for the owner this site goes the way off many other failed business ventures. So let's make sure we understand MM, why it's available and why it remains avaliable and it dang sure isn't for your or my benefit, even though we all get something out of it, or we wouldn't participate.

Selling information to hunters has gone on for years, this web site simply made it more known by more people and it also made it easier to criticize the practice before a larger audience than in a local coffee shop.

Personally I think it is the continued evolution of people seeing opportunity to make some money, doing the thing the love to do. Aren't we all somewhat like that ourselves i.e.; wishing we could make a living doing something we love, everyday. Isn't it human nature to look for opportunities to increase our income, especially when those we sell to are so grateful for the service provided. It's the way of the world.

Personally, I don't like what the outfitter industry has evolved into but thousands upon thousands of others love it and are grateful for the service.

In a nut shell, our culture and or environment are what we make it or allow others to make for us.

If I had my way 90% of mule deer hunters wouldn't have a tag, until our herd populations are restored. If it's never, so be it. But that's not what the majority want, so here we are.

We get what we deserve, in almost every thing in life.

How ever this "selling information" without a license works out, it will be what we, ourselves and the system we've created, allows.

For sure, this won't be the last evolution in how folks make money off the hunting/fishing industry.

DC
 
So, lumpy. I guess since I like to drill, its my passion, your good with me wandering up to Wyoming and drilling? Its what I love. And he'll, if I hit oil, good for me. Its what I love. After all, who am I hurting? It is public land. Its a public resource, so because I like drilling I should be allowed to profit from it. I know for a fact I'm only going to get a few barrel s, Halliburton is far more successful so look at them. And those pesky drilling companies, they can stuff it with their concerns. Perhaps if they loved it as much as I, licenses, insurance, regulations, none of that should matter. I mean what I do is innovative and evolutionary. What they do is a business. Why is it wrong that I own a drill, drill, sell what comes of it? Its those damn drilling companies hurting the resource. I just love it.

He'll. Gold miners, drillers, loggers. Forget paying for the resource. The standard is only that you love it. Just love it, ALOT and you can do whatever you want. I mean...MERICA!!

I see tons of pics with Mossback logo, WLH logos, etc. Any chance since everyone is so proud, that we see pics of dudes with Brian's logo on it. At $1500 a pop, I'm curious to see who's buying




"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-14-17 AT 06:59PM (MST)[p]In Miller v. California, the US Supreme Court found that obscene material was protected speech. Actors in obscene films are allowed to be paid for their services while working for licensed studios carrying the proper permits.

In Lawrence v. Texas, the US Supreme Court found consenting adults could not be regulated in their private activities.

So we have established that people can be paid for committing sexual acts, and we have established that consenting adults are protected in their sexual decisions. Yet, prostitution is still illegal.

I know this comparison sounds unrelated, yet I see it as a good analogy since it takes something that is otherwise deemed legal (scouting/sex), yet makes it illegal based on commercial status and receiving the proper licenses.

I'm not sure whether this scouting bill will pass or not. I just see a similarity in the thought process between the two arguments.

Grizzly

-----------------------------------------

"It's time to revisit the widely accepted principle in the United States and Canada that game is a public resource."
-Don Peay, Founder of SFW, as quoted in Anchorage Daily News
 
Founder,
What outfitter did you scout for last year?

2Lumpy,
I agree with you that significant changes need to be made to protect/help the deer herd to recover.

Question about the wilderness law and guides. If Founder would get a guides license in Wyoming, does that mean he can hunt the wilderness in Region G?

Paul
 
I didn't think I was saying because we love it we should be allowed to do it. That's hardly what I meant.

I meant, if you could drill, you would, if you could make folks happy and make money you'd likely be even more agressive in your desire and effort to drill.

We know why you don't. Your not allowed to now days. That has not always been the case. There was a time you could have drilled. Then "we" the people decided "we" didn't want you to, for our own individual reasons.

The same is true with this situation, now that it has become an issue, the "system" will decide what the course of hunting industry will evolve to.

Now that the system is involved, regardless of what the decisson is, there will be a ten fold increase in the selling of animal locations, whether the system requires it be done with a license or if they leave it as it is now. The issue has become a know practice within the culture and many, many others will begin to use it, both the providers and the buyers will increase tremendously.

Human nature is not always a good thing but you best learn it and recognize the course of the future, if you don't like getting blindsided continuously.

DC
 
Unfortunately I think DC has pretty well hit the nail on the head with his last couple posts. Hunting as I've known it since I started with my Dad 65 years ago is changing drastically and IMHO it's not for the good. It's sort of going just like the rest of the country the last 10 years or so and as far as I'm concerned it won't get any better in my lifetime no matter how much I try to change it back to the way it was when I started. It's sad, a shame, but IMHO it's true! Founder picked a really great guy when he hooked up with SY last year---NOT! Again IMHO Sy is the epitome of a person that is just out for himself and what he can make from hunting and doesn't give a rat's azz about NRs other than the money he can make from them by locking up as much land with leases as he can in WY and MT.
 
Its not blindsided that he does it. I'm more surprised at the shoulder shrug some give it. Especially those in your generation, and with as vocal as you are about "the good old days".

As a licensed subcontractor, I am sensitive to those in my industry that work unlicensed, under the radar. Like you I don't like the entire industry, but if outfitters selling hunts, selling drop camps, etc, have to play by a set of rules, so should Brian.

I really feel we are going to have to seriously address guides/scouts on public ground. In just not sure I grasp how loggers pay for trees, drillers pay for oil, but outfitters/scouts sell a PUBLICALLY owned resource, no different than logs or oil, yet they pay nothing for it. In sure walmart would love to sell food they didn't pay for, or car dealers sell cars they didnt buy.

Seems so few of the issues in hunting have anything to do with the animals, its almost solely the people, and nearly 100% based on money.




"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Yup, all I've done is shrug my shoulders. You're certainly right on that comment. I try very hard to stay out of your future, now days.

I've said it before, 70 year olds need to leave the future to the youth, who'll be living with it. I failed miserably, and I'm miserable about what I didn't accomplish, all the best to you and your youngsters.

DC
 
This is an intriguing topic with a number of implications. Aside from all the personal banter it has been interesting to follow. A few things seem pretty clear to me:

1. This isn't a first amendment issue. The State of Wyoming, if they pass this law, is not infringing on free speech. Founder can post/share/tell anyone he wants about coordinates, locations, deer size/quantity, life experiences etc. What he can't do if this law passes is sell that information unless he complies with the terms that would allow him to legally sell the information.

2. The state can regulate commerce as long as it is not preempted by federal regulation...(supremacy clause) - most industry regulation/commerce is regulated by the state and that is what is going on in this case...no federal regulation issue that I am aware of. Obviously the State regulates many aspects of the hunting/guiding industry..

3. The law prohibits the sale or advertising of information...and as mentioned earlier...it would be an easy sting to run for known suppliers of information. In that sense, it would actually not be that difficult to enforce.

4. If the law passes and founder still wants to do this he should just get a license...then he is legal. If he doesn't want the state regulating him...then don't sell information. Seems pretty simple. If the state denies him a license for arbitrary or vindictive reasons...now he has a case it might be worth hiring a lawyer over!
 
>Yup, all I've done is shrug
>my shoulders. You're certainly
>right on that comment.
>I try very hard to
>stay out of your future,
>now days.
>
>I've said it before, 70 year
>olds need to leave the
>future to the youth, who'll
>be living with it.
>I failed miserably, and I'm
>miserable about what I didn't
>accomplish, all the best to
>you and your youngsters.
>
>DC

Meant how many guys shrug. I prefer it when older dudes talk. At 43 I remember when the biggest issue in hunting was big deer contest prize ammounts. Seems the entire community was united in how a financial gain at the detriment of the deer was a negative. That's seems flipped on its head now.

Lumpy, dads dead, but his best friend(my surrogate dad) is 70. My uncles are 74, 78. Those are the guys I hunt deer with, father in law is 66, huntvelk with him. I prefer you old turds! There's less grey area and nuance, more black and white with u guys


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
Great first post idahohntr and one that I'm in full agreement with even though I don't like the way that hunting is turning almost completely into an industry during my lifetime! This is from another 70 year old "turd" as Hossblur calls us, LOL!
 
Am I missing something...

If you SELL a service that helps someone take an animal, it is called guiding. If you SELL an informational packet that aids a person's hunt in any way, it's called guiding. If you assist in a hunt for compensation, traditionally, that is called guiding. Guides have been required to be licensed for a long time. Seems pretty strait forward.

I've paid for an informational packet before in a unit I'd never hunted and didn't have time to scout. In my opinion, that individual guided me. And truthfully, my success on that hunt reflected his contribution. He wasn't out there holding my hand, but he told me exactly where to go. That's guiding.

With Wy's history protecting the outfitter industry (hence the wilderness NR restriction) I would find it hard to believe that UNREGULATED scouting for profit would not be eventually stopped.
 
The definition of guiding isn't a matter of opinion, this is actually it;

"Guide services" means for hire or remuneration, accompanying and providing assistance to a hunter in the field relating to the taking of any big or trophy game animal except as provided in W.S. 23-2-401(b) and (c);

Not sure it means much to you, but while you felt guided being provided information in your case, it wouldn't be considered guiding by the law of Wyoming.

More regulation is what this country needs! Got to love lots of regulation to protect special interest. ha ha

>
>Am I missing something...
>
>If you SELL a service that
>helps someone take an animal,
>it is called guiding.
>If you SELL an informational
>packet that aids a person's
>hunt in any way, it's
>called guiding. If you
>assist in a hunt for
>compensation, traditionally, that is called
>guiding. Guides have been required
>to be licensed for a
>long time. Seems pretty
>strait forward.
>
>I've paid for an informational packet
>before in a unit I'd
>never hunted and didn't have
>time to scout. In
>my opinion, that individual guided
>me. And truthfully, my success
>on that hunt reflected his
>contribution. He wasn't out there
>holding my hand, but he
>told me exactly where to
>go. That's guiding.
>
>With Wy's history protecting the outfitter
>industry (hence the wilderness NR
>restriction) I would find it
>hard to believe that UNREGULATED
>scouting for profit would not
>be eventually stopped.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
Welcome to legit business. It would be great to be free of regulation. But, if that was the case their wouldn't be a deer alive now would there.

Founder, how did you think this would play out? Honestly?

Your involved in a VERY controversial business. Your in a highly valued area, and your an out of stater. Your running illegal. You couldnt have thought as the "legit" guys were scratching quarterly checks, scratching licensing checks, scratching insurance check, that they were happy to have you up there doing none of that, yet doing what they do,or at least a version, with none of this restraint. I notice your distain isn't with the entire industry being subjected to by "the man", so your libertarian whining rings hollow.

Evanston Wyoming is 70 miles from me. If you want to build in Wyoming, you are required to use local mechanical guys. I wish Utah did the same. It keeps the money local, helps local business. Its only "welfare" if you want to try and undercut them.

At $1500 a pop, and with you saying you "only knew of a couple" deer killed with your service, that way $3k-$4k? If your legit you lose about 30% to various tax men? Another 30% or so in costs.? Your gonna hire a lawyer, take the negative PR, which affects your other ventures, and fight? On what grounds? You don't like being licensed? Good luck! Every licensed sub contractor in the country will cheer you on.

Do you think every newspaper, radio, tv station isn't regulated? Do they not have free speech?

States have the right to control commerce. As citizens in that state they have a right to lobby their politicians.



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
I think the regulation would come from the Land Management Agency who can regulate a Commercial activity on public lands. It stands to reason that the Forest Service or BLM or State would require some form of license/permit/insurance to conduct a commercial activity on the lands they manage. They already do this. Then the State could require a State license to conduct business within their state. They already do this. So they wouldn't be managing a person's "right of free speech"-- it would be more a management of the commercial activity occuring on public lands and pertaining to a State owned resource.

For sure it is a grey area when talking about finder's fees and that type of info. Maybe they are just trying to make it black and white? Kind of like the "packing out critters for compensation" laws or fliming for commercial use. And I'm sure there are other activities which could be viewed the same as Founder's, but no one is lobbying against those activities (at the moment). I don't know. I won't lose sleep over it either way....
 
The lack of any citation is pretty strong proof that I'm not doing anything illegal. You?re wrong again. ?Libel? Feel free to share opinion, but please don't be a liar.

Or maybe the state of Wyoming isn't aware of my publishing and selling reports? Or they just forgot. ha ha ha

Maybe you'll have the last laugh here in a couple months when it's voted on, but I don't believe so. Keep comparing to oil drilling, that?ll do the trick. lol




>Welcome to legit business. It
>would be great to be
>free of regulation. But,
>if that was the case
>their wouldn't be a deer
>alive now would there.
>
>Founder, how did you think this
>would play out? Honestly?
>
>
>Your involved in a VERY controversial
>business. Your in a
>highly valued area, and your
>an out of stater.
>Your running illegal. You
>couldnt have thought as the
>"legit" guys were scratching quarterly
>checks, scratching licensing checks, scratching
>insurance check, that they were
>happy to have you up
>there doing none of that,
>yet doing what they do,or
>at least a version, with
>none of this restraint.
>I notice your distain isn't
>with the entire industry being
>subjected to by "the man",
>so your libertarian whining rings
>hollow.
>
>Evanston Wyoming is 70 miles from
>me. If you want
>to build in Wyoming, you
>are required to use local
>mechanical guys. I wish
>Utah did the same. It
>keeps the money local, helps
>local business. Its only
>"welfare" if you want to
>try and undercut them.
>
>At $1500 a pop, and with
>you saying you "only knew
>of a couple" deer killed
>with your service, that way
>$3k-$4k? If your legit
>you lose about 30% to
>various tax men? Another
>30% or so in costs.?
> Your gonna hire a
>lawyer, take the negative PR,
>which affects your other ventures,
>and fight? On what
>grounds? You don't like
>being licensed? Good luck!
> Every licensed sub contractor
>in the country will cheer
>you on.
>
>Do you think every newspaper, radio,
>tv station isn't regulated?
>Do they not have free
>speech?
>
>States have the right to control
>commerce. As citizens in
>that state they have a
>right to lobby their politicians.
>
>
>
>
>"The only thing that stops a
>bad guy with a gun
>is a good guy with
>a gun"


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
I would agree that it's the F.S. who should have regulation concerning visitors who pass through N.F. and then go home, write about what they saw and publish it for sell.
If the F.S. feels that the impact of someone like me, or any backpacker, who writes about their experience is impacting it enough to require regulation, then I could see that. That's why they regulate outfitters, because of their impact on the land.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
If Founder or others doing what he's doing were illegal at the present time there would be no need for the Bill that's been introduced in the Wyoming Legislature this session. The reason it has been introduced is to eliminate the "loophole" that is there right now allowing him and others to do what they are doing. IMHO if anyone makes money off of a public resource like we are talking about then they should pay the Piper just like those that are offering pack-in services, outfitted and guiding services, etc. Founder doesn't think so, but it appears he's in the minority in that probably 90% of the respondents on this thread appear to not like what he's doing, but feel if he does that he should at least be required to have a license since he's in direct competition with ones who do and part of what they offer is exactly what he is offering and that is help to kill an animal on public land.
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-17 AT 09:31AM (MST)[p]And as I've said, if there were a license or permit to get, I'd get it. But there is no license or permit to get at this time. My issue with the bill to soon be voted on is that it's not looking to regulate what I'm doing, but more so to stop me completely and hand the consulting over to outfitters and guides as a new service to offer. And that's where my problem is.
Seriously, I love regulation, permits, licenses and fees like everyone else. It's my favorite. There should be a fee just for me writing this post.


>If Founder or others doing what
>he's doing were illegal at
>the present time there would
>be no need for the
>Bill that's been introduced in
>the Wyoming Legislature this session.
> The reason it has
>been introduced is to eliminate
>the "loophole" that is there
>right now allowing him and
>others to do what they
>are doing. IMHO if
>anyone makes money off of
>a public resource like we
>are talking about then they
>should pay the Piper just
>like those that are offering
>pack-in services, outfitted and guiding
>services, etc. Founder doesn't
>think so, but it appears
>he's in the minority in
>that probably 90% of the
>respondents on this thread appear
>to not like what he's
>doing, but feel if he
>does that he should at
>least be required to have
>a license since he's in
>direct competition with ones who
>do and part of what
>they offer is exactly what
>he is offering and that
>is help to kill an
>animal on public land.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
Your planning on spending a lot of time in court for a business you claim brings in enough to "pay for gas". Libel is pretty hard to win for a public persona, plus you have to prove I'm wrong. Your welcome to try. You would have to show harm, which according to you your just a dude sharing info with your buddies. Hard to harm a business that doesn't exist.

On behalf of Utards everywhere, thanks for being a good guest up in Wyoming. I'm sure it encourages them to make NR more desired.

Seems like dropping a call to find out how to do what your doing the right way would have been easier, but lawyer up.


I'm sure we'll see founder v Wyoming before the supreme court 2018.


"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-17 AT 10:23AM (MST)[p]>And as I've said, if there
>were a license or permit
>to get, I'd get it.
>But there is no license
>or permit to get at
>this time. My issue with
>the bill to soon be
>voted on is that it's
>not looking to regulate what
>I'm doing, but more so
>to stop me completely and
>hand the consulting over to
>outfitters and guides as a
>new service to offer. And
>that's where my problem is.
>
>Seriously, I love regulation, permits, licenses
>and fees like everyone else.
>It's my favorite. There should
>be a fee just for
>me writing this post.


The Bill is written to do exactly as it states even though outfitters and guides are obviously in favor of it in hopes that it will restrict competition with them. It may be as you say in trying to eliminate what you're doing, but I don't think they can do that and not have it challenged in court if the Bill is passed and the state would not grant you a license. The Board run by the state of WY does the licensing and if the Bill passes they will probably have to add a section in their Regulation that deals with a person who does what you're doing since it doesn't have anything in there right now, but I don't believe they could just not grant a license without having a legitimate reason that would/could be challenged in Court. I think we all need to see what happens if it even comes to a vote on the floor of the Legislature and if it does and passes then see how the Board handles the situation so as not to illegally preclude a person who legally applies for said license. I really don't know where Hossblur is coming from when he alleges you're running an illegal business right now when you're not.
 
The bill does not stop you from this activity. It regulates you by requiring you to go through the guide license process...where the state has some control or knowledge over who/where/when this stuff happens.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-17
>AT 10:23?AM (MST)
>
>>And as I've said, if there
>>were a license or permit
>>to get, I'd get it.
>>But there is no license
>>or permit to get at
>>this time. My issue with
>>the bill to soon be
>>voted on is that it's
>>not looking to regulate what
>>I'm doing, but more so
>>to stop me completely and
>>hand the consulting over to
>>outfitters and guides as a
>>new service to offer. And
>>that's where my problem is.
>>
>>Seriously, I love regulation, permits, licenses
>>and fees like everyone else.
>>It's my favorite. There should
>>be a fee just for
>>me writing this post.
>
>
>The Bill is written to do
>exactly as it states even
>though outfitters and guides are
>obviously in favor of it
>in hopes that it will
>restrict competition with them.
>It may be as you
>say in trying to eliminate
>what you're doing, but I
>don't think they can do
>that and not have it
>challenged in court if the
>Bill is passed and the
>state would not grant you
>a license. The Board
>run by the state of
>WY does the licensing and
>if the Bill passes they
>will probably have to add
>a section in their Regulation
>that deals with a person
>who does what you're doing
>since it doesn't have anything
>in there right now, but
>I don't believe they
>could just not grant a
>license without having a legitimate
>reason that would/could be challenged
>in Court. I think
>we all need to see
>what happens if it even
>comes to a vote on
>the floor of the Legislature
>and if it does and
>passes then see how the
>Board handles the situation so
>as not to illegally preclude
>a person who legally applies
>for said license. I
>really don't know where
>Hossblur is coming from when
>he alleges you're running an
>illegal business right now when
>you're not.

How do you run a "business" if your not a business. I looked. Brian has an entire pricing sheet. Its not like he wants to claim, just like you and me exchanging info. He has it laid out including 2 different pkg options.
Does he have a tax ID# for it? Is he licensed with Wyoming dopl? Did he get a permit for filming? If he's honest did he even look into it? BEFORE he just started taking payment? Which city, county, state is he a licensed service provider?

If he is any of those then fine, but from what I've read,written by him, he's just some dude exchanging info. That's fundamentally not true. The second he set up a payment system, which you can find on this site, he quit being Brian the buddy, and became Brian the professional.

His post about being innovative, wasn't about hiking around and seeing deer, it was about how he found a "job"(his word) he loves. His innovation, or so he thought till he pissed off the locals, was how to get paid with no regulation.

I agree with him, I hate regulation. It's the biggest shock u get when U go into buisness, how many hands are out taxing and fee collecting. But he's not advocating for getting rid of those fees for outfitters, or tv shows for that matter, he's pissed because the locals are going after him.

Personally, I hope they sue each other out of existence, their both not good for deer herds(at some point you can't all have success).

That outfitter pushing it sounds like a horses arse. But Brian PUBLICALLY attacking LR, Drones, because its too successful, or too much tech(I agree with him), then running this business, rings pretty hollow.

I have ZERO dog in this fight. Know neither. Have no intention of ever hunting there.

But I decided on any issue to ask what's best for the public(land or hunter), and neither are good for it. That's my place.

Brian could have dumped me off this site, its his. Him not doing so shows he actually believes in speach, which is commendable.



"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
 
The bill is trying to dictate what I can or can't write about and publish from my desk in Utah. The supporters feel that because I'm writing about something that the state of Wyoming owns, that the state has the right to dictate what I get to say about that property. I do no business in Wyoming, only share my experiences and knowledge gathered while in the state of Wyoming with people of my choice when I return home to Utah where I have a business license that allows me to publish my life experiences and all the detail about those experiences that I wish.

That's how I see it. And even though I see it that way, and don't think I should be regulated to hike through Wyoming and look at stuff and tell whomever I want what I saw and where, I'd be happy to get a license if that were the case. But as I see this bill, it's geared primarily to stop me and anyone like me, and give the existing outfitters a new service to offer.


>The bill does not stop you
>from this activity. It
>regulates you by requiring you
>to go through the guide
>license process...where the state has
>some control or knowledge over
>who/where/when this stuff happens.
>
>


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-17 AT 05:07PM (MST)[p]Founder I tend to agree with you on much of your view points on this matter. Here is the big problem that I have with what you are doing....

Most of us hard core mule deer hunters I feel safe to say viewed you as one of us. I am sure many also in some ways looked up to you of sorts and also lived vicariously through you in many ways. That being said when you started this "businesses" that cut deep with many of us that thought you truly were different then all of those before you. Now we all know that just isn't so you are just a sell out just like all the rest before you.

Just my opinion but that's the nuts and bolts of it.

As long as you can still look in the mirror while shaving I guess more power to you. But know this, you are a sell out. I guess some people are ok with being such
 
>Founder I tend to agree with
>you on much of your
>view points on this matter.
>Here is the big problem
>with what I have with
>what you are doing....
>
>Most of us hard core mule
>deer hunters I feel safe
>to say viewed you as
>one of us. I am
>sure many also in some
>ways looked up to you
>of sorts and also lived
>vicariously through you in many
>ways. That being said when
>you started this "businesses" hurt
>cut deep with many of
>us that thought you truly
>were different then all of
>those before you. Now we
>all know that just isn't
>so you are just a
>sell out just like all
>the rest before you.
>
>Just my opinion but that's the
>nuts and bolts of it.
>
>
>As long as you can still
>look in the mirror while
>shaving I guess more power
>to you. But no this,
>you are a sell out.
>I guess some people are
>ok with being such

All this coming from the guy who trades the same info for hunting or fishing trips.
 
I think one of the guides is butt hurt because out of 4 clients that was hunting with him they managed to get a couple of average 24" 4 point bucks, I think if Founder would advertised a couple of 2 point bucks this would never have happened.
 
Haha if you thought for one second I wasn't ready for a someone to bring such a thing up you would be mistaken....

I have made some great friends in doing just as you have mentioned. If you want to compare what I have done with what Brian is doing that is up to you, but judging from the response to his doings and the lack of any responses on how "bad" trading hunts are on the very page on this sight for just that I would say you are in a huge minority.

Oh and just so you know I have no problem looking in the mirror. I guess making friends and trading hunts is where I draw the line
 
Trading for hunts is okay. Trading for grocery and gas money, not. Gotcha?!! Can I come back to being ?one of you guys? if I just trade my information for high quality hunting adventures? What about a vacation to the beach? Or a cruise? Do those count? LOL Funny, funny........

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
"The bill is trying to dictate what I can or can't write about and publish from my desk in Utah."

That's not at all what the proposed legislation is trying to do. This is where I think you are off base regarding the 1st amendment issue. As I see it, you can write about and publish pretty much whatever you want; the issue is the fact that you are providing this intelligence for a fee. If you were providing this information for free I don't think you could be regulated.

Paul
 
LAST EDITED ON Dec-15-17 AT 07:13PM (MST)[p]Very real points Founder.

As the supply and demand gets tighter, as the regulations get more complex, as the stakes get higher and higher, the creativity of people get more sophisticated and equally complex, as people look for new ways to benefit from the resource.

If there was a surplus of mule deer and other big game species, people wouldn't put any value on infornarion. As long as supply stays way below demand, some people will go to jail attempting to leverage "easy money".

Moonshiners nearly brought the country to a hault, when people demanded alcohol and supply was scarce.

If Wyoming regulates what Founder is doing, soon enough, some other person, seeing a legal opportunity to make a few dollars will begin doing something else, like Founder has said, trading info for a week in Cancun or a ski weekend in Park City.

My guess is Founder will lose but another legal way will start, and stay under the radar for a few years, at which time another new regulation will need to be considered, then another, and another. But.......... no one will ever fix supply like we did with liquir and we are now just a blink away from doing with MaryJane.

This isn't brain science, it's a study in human nature. Ignore it and suffer the consequences.

DC
 
Justify it all you want Brian. There is a huge difference. You know it, I know it, and most everybody else knows it. You are a pimp and a sell out and no you can never come back to "our" group. You are a sell out and thus belong to that group now.
 

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