Elk Point Creep

Wiszard

Wiszard

Long Time Member
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I talked to an outfitter in Colorado and he told me that the point creep was so bad in an area he hunts that what usually takes 1 point to draw took 3 points to draw. He lost 13 of 14 1st season hunters. This can be devastating financially for many outfitters. Pretty sad.
 
Sounds like one of the worst scenarios, I saw several units jump a whole point, or .5 point though…
 
It's finally getting to the 1 to 3 point units. It's been there for the higher point units for years. One of the units I track jumped over 3 points a couple of years ago. It only went up 1 point this year though. Another has been going up by nearly 1 point, this year it's up 0.75 points. Another stayed exactly the same odds with 9 points.
 
I think with the new rules that are potentially being put in place, things are going to finally flatten out or even recede quite a bit.

No more otc was a step in the right direction to force people to burn their points. Wish they would have limited everyone and taken it into the rifle season too but oh well.

I feel within the next 5 years they are going to make ya use your points for any tag. I kinda hope they go to that model.

A lot depends on decisions made in July at the commissioners meeting.

The unit I hunt has been increasing a point a year for several years now. To be honest, it’s not worth waiting that many years to hunt there. The hunting is good but not what I would call awesome.
 
I had accumulated 29 preference points hoping to one day hunt one of the "big bull" northwest units. With the point creep I was always 2 points behind. I was spending $115 a year just to get a preference point.
Speaking to Colorado outfitters and state wildlife agents, I came to the conclusion that I would be waiting at least another 10 years to draw the unit I wanted. That would put me in my 70's by the time I drew. Somewhere in the neighborhood of 40 preference points (40 years).
I thought to myself ......"screw that!"
Last year at age 61, I decided to cash in my points to draw a muzzleloader tag for Unit 61. ( Unit 61 muzzleloader only required 27 points to draw at the time)
It was one of the best decisions I ever made. I killed my biggest bull ever and saw lots of bulls.
The point system in Colorado has turned into a Ponzi scheme, whether intentional or not.
 
Shep51 said:
In my opinion it is only going to get worse. After the wolves start impacting the elk herds people will be dumping their points to get out of the game.....
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Couple that with tag reductions to ensure the wolves have enough to chew on. There were several DAU’s that already saw a 10% reduction in tags this year… it will continue
 
Unfortunately the internet, online applications, application services and CPW not wanting tag fees up front have caused this to spiral out of control.
Hopefully change is coming, we will find out a direction next month. I am sure no matter what is decided, there will be complaining and everyone will have their own better ideas of what should happen.
 
@RRCowboyStar
I agree with all but upfront fees. I use to feel the same way. But after seeing what has happened to point creep and application numbers in Wyoming, New Mexico, and Idaho I think people have more disposable income than I realized.
 
I used to hate the up front fees, as CPW sat on that money for months. But I haven't drawn a thing since we've gone to the new app/free points system, and I live in Colorado. The new Youth draw is another kick in the teeth.
 
RRCowboyStar said:
Hopefully change is coming, we will find out a direction next month. I am sure no matter what is decided, there will be complaining and everyone will have their own better ideas of what should happen.
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I agree. A lot will be decided next month. It will likely effect everyone in a big way on how they apply going forward in Colorado.
 
Take a close look at how many limited elk units there are in Colorado compared to OTC. There really aren't that many limited elk units. Now take a look at how many pts it takes to draw scattered deer units across Colo vs elk. Ever since Colo went to all draw for deer it has taken fewer pts to draw a deer tag in numerous units across Colo than the tiny list of limited elk units.

It's obvious that there is a limited supply of limited elk units with an ever-increasing number of elk applicants.

Youth and landowner tags take a chunk of the pot. In my eyes, the transferable landowner tag deal is totally bogus!

Not paying for license fees up front is also bogus!

All of the above combined contribute to point creep.
 
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It’s so crazy how the internet has changed hunting . Just have to accept there’s way more of a demand than there used to be, tags are just plain going to be harder to get year after year. Hopefully some changes can help in some respects, but there is no way to please everybody- me included :)
 
Anyone with half a brain could see that point systems were not going to work when you are giving out OTC tags at the same time. Can’t believe it took people this long to figure this out.
 
No more OTC anywhere or season and making the secondary draw and reissued tags cost points would help solve the problem. Can’t allow building points and hunting every year. (Which I am guilty of)
 
When is Colorado doing away with OTC elk tags? Will I be able to buy one for my 33 deer hunt this year?
 
1989Cohunter said:
I wouldn’t mind it all going to draw myself. The only reason I’m personally in the points game is to hunt a unit that you see more elk then people. It’s wild to think you can start putting in at 12 years old to hunt a tag in your mid thirties.
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Hell I did that when I was 12 and now I’m 40 and I’m still 25-30 years away!
 
Not sure how people can blame things on the internet. I started collecting points back around 1990 when everything was mail in and hand written checks. With that said there were still tons of guys inline in front of me with lots more points than me.
Last year, with 29 pref points I still didn’t have enough to draw units 2 or 201. Hence the reason I went with unit 61.
 
It's not just Colorado it's everywhere. supply and demand what are you going to do about it.

I have 26 NR elk points and I'll probably try to burn them on 61 next year. not the hunt I was hoping for but it is what it is and I'm too old to hold out another 20 years too.

The points I've burnt in multiple states over the years have given me some fantastic experiences and some quality animals. the points systems have been good to me and I have no room to whine. so the points I have left I've decided to burn on one hunt a year and accept it's a quality experience but I'm not going to kill myself trying to find a booner that probably doesn't exist, I'm just not going to draw those tags anymore. so I'm just going to have fun.
 
Togwotee said:
It's not just Colorado it's everywhere. supply and demand what are you going to do about it.

I have 26 NR elk points and I'll probably try to burn them on 61 next year. not the hunt I was hoping for but it is what it is and I'm too old to hold out another 20 years too.

The points I've burnt in multiple states over the years have given me some fantastic experiences and some quality animals. the points systems have been good to me and I have no room to whine. so the points I have left I've decided to burn on one hunt a year and accept it's a quality experience but I'm not going to kill myself trying to find a booner that probably doesn't exist, I'm just not going to draw those tags anymore. so I'm just going to have fun.
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If you were looking for an outfitter in Unit 61, I would highly recommend Garvey Brothers. They are top notch.
 
I drew unit 61 elk early and 21 deer late almost 20 years ago with 10 pts in the same year. Had unit 40 archery elk with 12 pts 4 maybe 6 years ago. I never have waited to get these hunts , just went when ready. It looks like that will never happen again. my wife had 19 elk points, and we went with early 49 rifle , I think she only needed 15, but we are hunting limited entry elk this season. some may say that unit is not worth 19, but we have a tag by just putting in for it. If it is not worth it , that will be our fault. I would love to hunt colorado more but I know that is not going to happen without a ton of cash. Not going to stop getting points , not really a choice for me at this game.
 
I suspect this years jump is due to going to 75/25. More residents with 0 points drew. Less NR with 1-2 drew. Because most people hiring an outfitter are NRs Can't really be that upset about that (unless you are an outfitter). It’s the new norm.

And remember this: when they finally go to all draw for elk, first rifle will get more tags.
 
I guess it would be too simple to increase the tags by 20%? They would make the total equal to what the pressure should be on public plus the landowner tags. But maybe that makes too much sense?
 
As of right now with the Draw working group, landowner tags will remain the same. That was one of the reasons that there was a fight to keep OTC for residents, if it went all draw 20% of the tags would have gone to landowners.
 
LeeWoiteshek said:
I used to hate the up front fees, as CPW sat on that money for months. But I haven't drawn a thing since we've gone to the new app/free points system, and I live in Colorado. The new Youth draw is another kick in the teeth.
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I personally think that the youth draw is an excellent option, l also live in Colorado. If the youth of this state are not drawing tags we have no future. I have hunted here since I was 12 and am now 40, I've taken my fair share, now it is time for my kids and everyone else's to get their chance and develop the passion that we all have and have had the pleasure of getting.
 
what percentage of OTC tags are currently used on private?. Seen like lots of elk would be on private land by then anyway. But I suspect it will be residents OTC, and NR limited in the rifle seasons as well.
 
txhunter58 said:
what percentage of OTC tags are currently used on private?. Seen like lots of elk would be on private land by then anyway. But I suspect it will be residents OTC, and NR limited in the rifle seasons as well.
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yes, public tags can be used on private, but when they become landowner vouchers they are removed from the public draw opportunity. That will increase point creep.
 
I remember when like 8 points was “no mans land”… then 10, then 15, then 20+. I’ve been in no mans land almost 20 years and keep falling back it seems, with NR tag cuts. Kinda getting tired and knowing what I know now, would never have done it. Rather I’d have hunted 5 point units 5 times, and probably had a bunch of bulls to show for it!
 
Any elk hunt or reissue tag awarded should return your points back to zero. I will continue to utilize the system but it’s broken.
 
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COPLAINSHNTR said:
I personally think that the youth draw is an excellent option, l also live in Colorado. If the youth of this state are not drawing tags we have no future. I have hunted here since I was 12 and am now 40, I've taken my fair share, now it is time for my kids and everyone else's to get their chance and develop the passion that we all have and have had the pleasure of getting.
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I'm a Father, and Grandfather too. I get your point. But I'm running out of time to draw a tag, any tag. I don't think anyone should be special. If your sons like hunting they will continue to hunt. I'm sure CPW and the other agencies have done the math and when we Boomers are gone, they are going to be in real trouble. Hence the 100 percent draw youth tags. But I'm not a fan. If your going to play that game, then let them draw 100 percent B/C tags.
 
LeeWoiteshek said:
I'm a Father, and Grandfather too. I get your point. But I'm running out of time to draw a tag, any tag. I don't think anyone should be special. If your sons like hunting they will continue to hunt. I'm sure CPW and the other agencies have done the math and when we Boomers are gone, they are going to be in real trouble. Hence the 100 percent draw youth tags. But I'm not a fan. If your going to play that game, then let them draw 100 percent B/C tags.
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If you are willing to draw "Any Tag" there are always some of them available. These tags made it to "second draw" except for the few that were either not paid for or returned, which I am sure you are referring to, are a small number compared to the original draw. In my opinion it's a great opportunity for a few youth hunters.
If the draw working group is successful, in the future all returned tags will go to the next inline and they will loose their points.
 
I really need to walk away from this topic. I don't know that I can express myself without insulting everyone. That said, these artificial divisions in our society where everyone is special but the old white guy isn't working for me. I say that as an old white guy. As a resident who is experiencing his taxes go through the roof, writes a check every year to Colorado for things I don't use, subsidizes people who are here illegally, and putting up with the over-the-top illegal gun laws and the fires, It would be nice to be able to purchase a tag and go hunting in the fall. Hard antler hunt within a couple of hours of the house would be okay. As a tax-paying resident here I should get first choice with the other residents. Any other tags left over from the residents then should go to people out of state. I shouldn't have to compete with hunters from 49 states to hunt my state. Not real big on CPW telling me I can apply for a tag in the secondary draw, but there's a special category of people who will get 100% first choice, and there's a real chance that they will have taken all the tags that you may apply for in this special draw. I'm really upset when the residents bring these inequities to the CPW meetings, the first thing out of their mouths is how much money CPW will lose if they give the residents more tags. There is so much wrong with this system I could write a thesis. Maybe I will.
 
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LeeWoiteshek said:
I really need to walk away from this topic. I don't know that I can express myself without insulting everyone. That said, these artificial divisions in our society where everyone is special but the old white guy isn't working for me. I say that as an old white guy. As a resident who is experiencing his taxes go through the roof, writes a check every year to Colorado for things I don't use, subsidizes people who are here illegally, and putting up with the over-the-top illegal gun laws and the fires, It would be nice to be able to purchase a tag and go hunting in the fall. Hard antler hunt within a couple of hours of the house would be okay. As a tax-paying resident here I should get first choice with the other residents. Any other tags left over from the residents then should go to people out of state. I shouldn't have to compete with hunters from 49 states to hunt my state. Not real big on CPW telling me I can apply for a tag in the secondary draw, but there's a special category of people who will get first choice, and there's a real chance that they will have taken all the tags that you may apply for in this special draw. I'm really upset when the residents bring this inequity to the CPW meetings, the first thing out of their mouths is how much money CPW will lose if they give the residents more tags. There is so much wrong with this system I could write a thesis. Maybe I will.
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No you are pretty spot on with how most of us feel…
 
LeeWoiteshek said:
I'm a Father, and Grandfather too. I get your point. But I'm running out of time to draw a tag, any tag. I don't think anyone should be special. If your sons like hunting they will continue to hunt. I'm sure CPW and the other agencies have done the math and when we Boomers are gone, they are going to be in real trouble. Hence the 100 percent draw youth tags. But I'm not a fan. If your going to play that game, then let them draw 100 percent B/C tags.
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I am not offended by any means Lee, and I understand your frustration. My old man is in the same boat. I just feel that the youth deserves every opportunity that they can get. This year, I may or may not play the leftover game or I might just enjoy hunting with my sons who were fortunate enough to draw a couple tags in the first draw. Like I said before, I have had my chances and opportunities, I have been damned fortunate and successful, I would just damn sure like my kids to get the same chance. I have played the points game before and I won't do it anymore, find and area that has reasonable opportunity to draw with decent numbers of game and go for it. If it makes you feel any better we are landowners and can't get tags for the animals that we feed all year on our own place, but no one is entitled I guess.
 
COPLAINSHNTR said:
I am not offended by any means Lee, and I understand your frustration. My old man is in the same boat. I just feel that the youth deserves every opportunity that they can get. This year, I may or may not play the leftover game or I might just enjoy hunting with my sons who were fortunate enough to draw a couple tags in the first draw. Like I said before, I have had my chances and opportunities, I have been damned fortunate and successful, I would just damn sure like my kids to get the same chance. I have played the points game before and I won't do it anymore, find and area that has reasonable opportunity to draw with decent numbers of game and go for it. If it makes you feel any better we are landowners and can't get tags for the animals that we feed all year on our own place, but no one is entitled I guess.
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I've got three acres in FairPlay, right across from a 17K SWA, and haven't drawn in five years. I feel your pain.
 
LeeWoiteshek said:
I really need to walk away from this topic. I don't know that I can express myself without insulting everyone. That said, these artificial divisions in our society where everyone is special but the old white guy isn't working for me. I say that as an old white guy. As a resident who is experiencing his taxes go through the roof, writes a check every year to Colorado for things I don't use, subsidizes people who are here illegally, and putting up with the over-the-top illegal gun laws and the fires, It would be nice to be able to purchase a tag and go hunting in the fall. Hard antler hunt within a couple of hours of the house would be okay. As a tax-paying resident here I should get first choice with the other residents. Any other tags left over from the residents then should go to people out of state. I shouldn't have to compete with hunters from 49 states to hunt my state. Not real big on CPW telling me I can apply for a tag in the secondary draw, but there's a special category of people who will get 100% first choice, and there's a real chance that they will have taken all the tags that you may apply for in this special draw. I'm really upset when the residents bring these inequities to the CPW meetings, the first thing out of their mouths is how much money CPW will lose if they give the residents more tags. There is so much wrong with this system I could write a thesis. Maybe I will.
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I am sure that my feelings would be the same as yours if I was a Colorado resident.
 
Hatchet Jack said:
Not sure how people can blame things on the internet. I started collecting points back around 1990 when everything was mail in and hand written checks. With that said there were still tons of guys inline in front of me with lots more points than me.
Last year, with 29 pref points I still didn’t have enough to draw units 2 or 201. Hence the reason I went with unit 61.
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I agree with you about the units you’ve mentioned. But I do blame internet fame for a few units blowing up. It’s to the point now where 66 is in the
Mention for being a decent LE tag. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with the tag, but I don’t think that it’s worth any real points for elk. go look at some of these hunt planner sites and it paints a much different picture. When started hunting a guy had to actually get out and see and be in a unit to learn it. Now everyone with Internet and a smart phone can e scout. Not to mention come on forums and ask questions.
 
1989Cohunter said:
I agree with you about the units you’ve mentioned. But I do blame internet fame for a few units blowing up. It’s to the point now where 66 is in the
Mention for being a decent LE tag. I’m not saying there is anything wrong with the tag, but I don’t think that it’s worth any real points for elk. go look at some of these hunt planner sites and it paints a much different picture. When started hunting a guy had to actually get out and see and be in a unit to learn it. Now everyone with Internet and a smart phone can e scout. Not to mention come on forums and ask questions.
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Hit the nail on the head… at least with the forums if used to take a little digging… now with google searches lot of easy info and guys looking for handouts, but the social media and sites that sell hunting info the game is completely changed, TBH I think there are very very few elk units in CO that justify a 5+ year wait to hunt, honestly I can think of about 5-6 units like that. Majority of the state should be 0-1 point tags…
 

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