Did BGF Get Wolf/Grouse $$$
- Thread starter grizzly
- Start date
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
I wonder if Rep. Mike McKell will require any accounting and reporting requirements this time?
http://www.sltrib.com/home/2298978-155/utah-sends-500k-more-to-unexplained
-Hawkeye-
http://www.sltrib.com/home/2298978-155/utah-sends-500k-more-to-unexplained
-Hawkeye-
grosventrehunter
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,902
Muley, I think you meant takers and not givers. No reason to thank me I'm here to help you robots.
grizzly
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 5,633
>Oh as an afterthought I hear
>the Cache SFW banquet sold
>out again for tomorrow night.
> Weird just weird.
I hear Bernie rallies attract 40,000 people and supporters actually get turned away. By your logic, that must mean he's right. I guess that makes sense being that they both rely on taxpayer money just to exist. Throw in Peay's "greedy fly fishermen" comment and you can see the analogy is complete.
Grizzly
>the Cache SFW banquet sold
>out again for tomorrow night.
> Weird just weird.
I hear Bernie rallies attract 40,000 people and supporters actually get turned away. By your logic, that must mean he's right. I guess that makes sense being that they both rely on taxpayer money just to exist. Throw in Peay's "greedy fly fishermen" comment and you can see the analogy is complete.
Grizzly
Muley_73
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,800
Cherry,
If that's the case how did they just get more money. Are all of you Interweb haters the only "informed" ones? Your rep didnt know the things that you know? He didn't let the other state rep and political leaders know? He didn't have you guys come explain to the floor about all this? Weird, I'm telling you it's weird!!!
If that's the case how did they just get more money. Are all of you Interweb haters the only "informed" ones? Your rep didnt know the things that you know? He didn't let the other state rep and political leaders know? He didn't have you guys come explain to the floor about all this? Weird, I'm telling you it's weird!!!
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
I don't have first hand knowledge of what BGF has or has not done on the wolf issue but when I read this document I am concerned: http://le.utah.gov/audit/13_11rpt.pdf. Couple that with the press release issued by the NRA, SCI and CSF a few years back and the public has a right to ask what BGF is doing with the money.
But don't ask any questions or else you will be labeled as a "hater and a whiner" instead of a "doer and a winner."
-Hawkeye-
But don't ask any questions or else you will be labeled as a "hater and a whiner" instead of a "doer and a winner."
-Hawkeye-
Muley_73
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,800
Stone,
And no I don't beleive I have any more family members posting. In fact the only one that does post has been too busy. Spent Thursday night at a town hall battling ranchers to keep strong numbers of elk on the souther units. I don't believe he said any of you gents were there. In fact I don't beleive that was even a rep from the RMEF there. But that's typical. Again doers and whiners. That's the reality of what's going on in the real world.
And no I don't beleive I have any more family members posting. In fact the only one that does post has been too busy. Spent Thursday night at a town hall battling ranchers to keep strong numbers of elk on the souther units. I don't believe he said any of you gents were there. In fact I don't beleive that was even a rep from the RMEF there. But that's typical. Again doers and whiners. That's the reality of what's going on in the real world.
Vanilla
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,750
muley73,
You act like none of this was known and is just coming up now as part of the SFW "hate." This legislative audit was debated on the house floor in 2015. Unfortunately, as was the case with the expo, the influence from those getting rich was too strong and they didn't make the necessary changes.
By your logic, since the legislature did what they did, everything is okay and right. I guess you support Obamacare 100% too then, huh? Because legislatures never are susceptible to corruption or the influence of money, right?
This audit has always been something that stuck in my craw. The crazy thing is exchange BGF and SFW and then wolf delisting and expo in this document and it could read almost word for word the same.
DWR elected to not check accounting. RFP was clearly written to only be able to choose one organization. No safeguards put in contract. No way to verify where money is being spent. Comingling of funds. Using state funds to lobby the state. Paying self huge consulting fees out of public money. No data to actually show you have accomplished anything.
Some things never change with our state wildlife folks and SFW. It just doesn't matter if you're talking about wolves or the expo. There is a major issue here, folks.
You act like none of this was known and is just coming up now as part of the SFW "hate." This legislative audit was debated on the house floor in 2015. Unfortunately, as was the case with the expo, the influence from those getting rich was too strong and they didn't make the necessary changes.
By your logic, since the legislature did what they did, everything is okay and right. I guess you support Obamacare 100% too then, huh? Because legislatures never are susceptible to corruption or the influence of money, right?
This audit has always been something that stuck in my craw. The crazy thing is exchange BGF and SFW and then wolf delisting and expo in this document and it could read almost word for word the same.
DWR elected to not check accounting. RFP was clearly written to only be able to choose one organization. No safeguards put in contract. No way to verify where money is being spent. Comingling of funds. Using state funds to lobby the state. Paying self huge consulting fees out of public money. No data to actually show you have accomplished anything.
Some things never change with our state wildlife folks and SFW. It just doesn't matter if you're talking about wolves or the expo. There is a major issue here, folks.
Stonefly
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,195
Used Donkey instead of Jackass as a kindness,...either way, both are directed by a tug on their reigns by someone other than themselves, and both produce a lot of stinky shlt.
If it makes you feel better to call me a hater or whiner,then by all means go ahead, I'm your Huckleberry, Donkey. Those are the same names i'm called by Obama, Hilary, Nancy,and Reid. YOU all have a lot in common. I guess all winners and Doers do.
If it makes you feel better to call me a hater or whiner,then by all means go ahead, I'm your Huckleberry, Donkey. Those are the same names i'm called by Obama, Hilary, Nancy,and Reid. YOU all have a lot in common. I guess all winners and Doers do.
Muley_73
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,800
Vanilla,
No I did not support Obamacare. Nor did the politicians that I personally voted for. How many of you voted for the Gov in this last election? In fact how many of you all complaining so much actually even voted??? I've said it from the start. SFW and BGF have been successful in operating within the system. The system that we in America have developed. They have given sportsman and voice within that system. The system that matters and ultimately makes the decisions. Whining and throwing a fit on the Internet, a one off news story and an occasional newspaper article don't change the system. Doers and whiners. Whiners are pushing to elect in some of their people. Some doers are also showing their support for certain politicians. You tell me who's a doer and who's whiner between Bernie and Trump? And tell me who is on the campaign trail DOING with Donald Trump. It's not anyone that is whining on MM I know that for a fact.
No I did not support Obamacare. Nor did the politicians that I personally voted for. How many of you voted for the Gov in this last election? In fact how many of you all complaining so much actually even voted??? I've said it from the start. SFW and BGF have been successful in operating within the system. The system that we in America have developed. They have given sportsman and voice within that system. The system that matters and ultimately makes the decisions. Whining and throwing a fit on the Internet, a one off news story and an occasional newspaper article don't change the system. Doers and whiners. Whiners are pushing to elect in some of their people. Some doers are also showing their support for certain politicians. You tell me who's a doer and who's whiner between Bernie and Trump? And tell me who is on the campaign trail DOING with Donald Trump. It's not anyone that is whining on MM I know that for a fact.
Vanilla
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,750
I did vote in the last election, and I did not vote for Governor Herbert. He is probably the most anti-sportsman governor in the country.
You didn't address any of the things I wrote, but that is par for the course, so I won't worry about it too much.
You mentioned one thing that was very astute, and I will acknowledge that. SFW has done VERY well operating in the system we allowed to be created. That's why I continuously say it is the system (IE, the state) that needs fixing, not SFW. And I will do my best to fix that system.
You didn't address any of the things I wrote, but that is par for the course, so I won't worry about it too much.
You mentioned one thing that was very astute, and I will acknowledge that. SFW has done VERY well operating in the system we allowed to be created. That's why I continuously say it is the system (IE, the state) that needs fixing, not SFW. And I will do my best to fix that system.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
Cody-
Since you decided to come back to monstermuley's after walking away (again), perhaps you could do something to actually contribute to the discussion. Why don't you help us understand what SFW and the DWR meant by "wildlife initiative" in the new contract? Will this new language result in any actual changes as to how the money is spent? Or is it just semantics (word games)? I assume that if there was a substantive change then we would have heard about it. Perhaps the dwr will prepare a detailed set of FAQ's explaining how that new provision changes everything. That would be fun.
-Hawkeye-
Since you decided to come back to monstermuley's after walking away (again), perhaps you could do something to actually contribute to the discussion. Why don't you help us understand what SFW and the DWR meant by "wildlife initiative" in the new contract? Will this new language result in any actual changes as to how the money is spent? Or is it just semantics (word games)? I assume that if there was a substantive change then we would have heard about it. Perhaps the dwr will prepare a detailed set of FAQ's explaining how that new provision changes everything. That would be fun.
-Hawkeye-
Hawkeye,
I asked these same questions to Mr Canning in an email. This was his response.
"The wording in the contract comes directly from SFW's proposal to distribute expo permits. In addition to the wording included in the contract, the proposal contains much more detail about the types of projects and initiatives where the funding will be used. The proposal is available via a GRAMA request from State Purchasing, and I believe SFW has also posted the proposal on the internet. I recommend that you read pages 88 to 114 of the proposal, as they provide the detail you have requested."
Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."
"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."
"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
I asked these same questions to Mr Canning in an email. This was his response.
"The wording in the contract comes directly from SFW's proposal to distribute expo permits. In addition to the wording included in the contract, the proposal contains much more detail about the types of projects and initiatives where the funding will be used. The proposal is available via a GRAMA request from State Purchasing, and I believe SFW has also posted the proposal on the internet. I recommend that you read pages 88 to 114 of the proposal, as they provide the detail you have requested."
Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."
"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."
"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
Muley_73
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,800
Stone,
You sound important if those people are actually refering to you personally? I do love the Tombstone reference. That's alway a good one to trot out. I like them myself at times.
BTW I beleive the camp you're in on this issue is more the Bernie camp so I'm sure those important people you refered to will continue to call you a Jackass.
You sound important if those people are actually refering to you personally? I do love the Tombstone reference. That's alway a good one to trot out. I like them myself at times.
BTW I beleive the camp you're in on this issue is more the Bernie camp so I'm sure those important people you refered to will continue to call you a Jackass.
Hawkeye
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,014
There are lots of facts out there Cody. Emails, contracts, meeting minutes, rules, statutes, etc. I am doing my best post those items for public consumption in my response to the DWR's FAQ's. Unfortunately, we have to assume and guess at times when it comes to SFW's and MDF's intentions and actions because they refuse to come out and address them openly. Look no further then the KUTV News story. That would have been a great opportunity to tell your side of the story. Yes, yes, I know. That reporter was a hater and a whiner who could not see the truth. Got it.
-Hawkeye-
-Hawkeye-
LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-16 AT 08:54PM (MST)[p]>Top,
>Your irrelevance to literally every aspect
>of this issue yet determination
>to make noise is of
>legend. When my best
>days have gone and faded
>I hope I find a
>hobby as well.
LOL! My "hobby" of calling out liars and cheats is much better than following them like you and your Papa! All I've stated just like Hawkeye are facts that can be backed up, so calling them irrelevant is par for the course with you koolaid drinkers. IMHO your good days are long gone already when you come on here and try to defend what any sane person can see is an injustice being done to his fellow man. I'm beginning to think that you and the old man are the real followers of an actual cult just like Jim Jones had at one time. Just the name has changed to Don Peay, but you all may go the same way of JJ before it's all over!
>Your irrelevance to literally every aspect
>of this issue yet determination
>to make noise is of
>legend. When my best
>days have gone and faded
>I hope I find a
>hobby as well.
LOL! My "hobby" of calling out liars and cheats is much better than following them like you and your Papa! All I've stated just like Hawkeye are facts that can be backed up, so calling them irrelevant is par for the course with you koolaid drinkers. IMHO your good days are long gone already when you come on here and try to defend what any sane person can see is an injustice being done to his fellow man. I'm beginning to think that you and the old man are the real followers of an actual cult just like Jim Jones had at one time. Just the name has changed to Don Peay, but you all may go the same way of JJ before it's all over!
Muley,
Many have made assumptions.
Many have asked time and time again to get the documents to show the truth. A tax form from 2013 doesn't answer the questions. News anchors get rejected for interviews. The public gets left without answers.
The more that time goes by, the more assumptions are made and that animal that quacks like a duck is presumed to be a duck. Put lipstick on it, dress it up....it's still a duck.
You call those who agree with Hawkeye followers. That's ok. I don't let people like you ruffle my feathers. Call me what you like. But this is no game and it's not what I call entertainment. I'd much rather spend more time with my kids or get more done around the house. But I' also
Care about where hunting is headed. I am also concerned about my kids future involving hunting. Two are in high school and see hunting evolving into a rich mans sport. Other things have slowly drawn them away from hunting. I also wonder how hunting will be for their kids as well. I don't like the picture that I see and where things are going.
I am no follower. We each have our own reasons why this battle continues and it's not for entertainment.
The writing is on the wall with all that has transpired and it stinks. It's hard to ignore its smell.
Little crumbs get left for those seeking to find the truth when the truth could come out tomorrow. But the cause of that smell might be too much for some.
I refuse to wear blinders or only see bits and pieces of the puzzle.
Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."
"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."
"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
Many have made assumptions.
Many have asked time and time again to get the documents to show the truth. A tax form from 2013 doesn't answer the questions. News anchors get rejected for interviews. The public gets left without answers.
The more that time goes by, the more assumptions are made and that animal that quacks like a duck is presumed to be a duck. Put lipstick on it, dress it up....it's still a duck.
You call those who agree with Hawkeye followers. That's ok. I don't let people like you ruffle my feathers. Call me what you like. But this is no game and it's not what I call entertainment. I'd much rather spend more time with my kids or get more done around the house. But I' also
Care about where hunting is headed. I am also concerned about my kids future involving hunting. Two are in high school and see hunting evolving into a rich mans sport. Other things have slowly drawn them away from hunting. I also wonder how hunting will be for their kids as well. I don't like the picture that I see and where things are going.
I am no follower. We each have our own reasons why this battle continues and it's not for entertainment.
The writing is on the wall with all that has transpired and it stinks. It's hard to ignore its smell.
Little crumbs get left for those seeking to find the truth when the truth could come out tomorrow. But the cause of that smell might be too much for some.
I refuse to wear blinders or only see bits and pieces of the puzzle.
Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."
"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."
"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
Muley_73
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,800
Billy,
I have 3 kids that love the outdoors. They are as hardcore as it gets when it comes to hunting and fishing. We just disagree on the route to preserve and strengthen the future of our wildlife. Believe me when I say that it's no game to me in the real world. But here in the Internet. Yes it's a game in many many aspects.
I have 3 kids that love the outdoors. They are as hardcore as it gets when it comes to hunting and fishing. We just disagree on the route to preserve and strengthen the future of our wildlife. Believe me when I say that it's no game to me in the real world. But here in the Internet. Yes it's a game in many many aspects.
Please enlighten me on how we disagree
on the route to preserve and strengthen the future of our wildlife.
Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."
"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."
"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
on the route to preserve and strengthen the future of our wildlife.
Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."
"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."
"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-16 AT 10:24PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Mar-12-16 AT 10:14?PM (MST)
That makes a lot of sense.
Many others along with myself who you claim as "followers", see it the same way as Boone and Crockett. Here is a statement from them as of late. But I beg to wonder what their purpose of this release was and/or if it was directed to anybody specific? What do you think?
"The Boone and Crockett Club supports other conservation organizations raffling and auctioning special hunting opportunities because this form of funding is a critical element for wildlife agencies to keep pace with current challenges and demands. The Club has long supported state, provincial, tribal, and First Nations wildlife agency management authority. This includes allowing them to decide what is necessary to fully fund wildlife programs, including the issuance of tags. The Club would not be supportive, however, of an agency using these tag revenues for non-wildlife purposes or in a manner that differs from what was advertised. Such actions would undermine the support and trust sportsmen have for our wildlife agencies.
The Club believes the perception that tag programs are unfair to the average hunter or create a double standard for the wealthy could be alleviated through better communication and transparency. Agencies that issue these tags should provide valid reasons why they have adopted certain rules and processes for them, including communicating how these monies are being used and what types of benefits and successes are being achieved with these funds."
What we disagree on is that unlike "us followers" and B&C club,you still would support an agency who wouldn't spend the revenue on what was advertised and continue to defend those groups who are not transparent.
Yes....that is what we disagree on.
Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."
"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."
"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
That makes a lot of sense.
Many others along with myself who you claim as "followers", see it the same way as Boone and Crockett. Here is a statement from them as of late. But I beg to wonder what their purpose of this release was and/or if it was directed to anybody specific? What do you think?
"The Boone and Crockett Club supports other conservation organizations raffling and auctioning special hunting opportunities because this form of funding is a critical element for wildlife agencies to keep pace with current challenges and demands. The Club has long supported state, provincial, tribal, and First Nations wildlife agency management authority. This includes allowing them to decide what is necessary to fully fund wildlife programs, including the issuance of tags. The Club would not be supportive, however, of an agency using these tag revenues for non-wildlife purposes or in a manner that differs from what was advertised. Such actions would undermine the support and trust sportsmen have for our wildlife agencies.
The Club believes the perception that tag programs are unfair to the average hunter or create a double standard for the wealthy could be alleviated through better communication and transparency. Agencies that issue these tags should provide valid reasons why they have adopted certain rules and processes for them, including communicating how these monies are being used and what types of benefits and successes are being achieved with these funds."
What we disagree on is that unlike "us followers" and B&C club,you still would support an agency who wouldn't spend the revenue on what was advertised and continue to defend those groups who are not transparent.
Yes....that is what we disagree on.
Theodore Roosevelt's guidance concerning
conservation...
"The movement for the conservation of wildlife,
and the conservation of all our natural resources,
are essentially democratic in spirit,purpose and
method."
"We do not intend that our natural resources shall
be exploited by the few against the interests of the
majority. Our aim is to preserve our natural
resources for the public as a whole, for the
average man and the average woman who make
up the body of the American people."
"It is in our power...to preserve game..and to give
reasonable opportunities for the exercise of the
skill of the hunter,whether he is or is not a man of
means."
Muley_73
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,800
Vanilla,
I believe the first I heard of SFW was the day I stood on the steps of the Capitol. 93 or 94? Didn't agree with their ideas all the way in those days. ( still don't) I did like that they came in and addressed the fact that we had lost most of our deer herd and that continued over the counter deer tags in Utah was not the responsible thing to continue to do. I don't think I became an office member until 4 or 5 years ago. Maybe 6?
I believe the first I heard of SFW was the day I stood on the steps of the Capitol. 93 or 94? Didn't agree with their ideas all the way in those days. ( still don't) I did like that they came in and addressed the fact that we had lost most of our deer herd and that continued over the counter deer tags in Utah was not the responsible thing to continue to do. I don't think I became an office member until 4 or 5 years ago. Maybe 6?
shotgunjim
Active Member
- Messages
- 971
>Tridouche,
>Your irrelevance to literally every aspect
>of this issue yet determination
>to make noise is of
>legend. When my best
>days have gone and faded
>I hope I find a
>hobby as well.
Fixed it for ya, you're welcome.
No estas en mexico ahora, entonces escoja tu basura
chancho sucio.
>Your irrelevance to literally every aspect
>of this issue yet determination
>to make noise is of
>legend. When my best
>days have gone and faded
>I hope I find a
>hobby as well.
Fixed it for ya, you're welcome.
No estas en mexico ahora, entonces escoja tu basura
chancho sucio.
bowhunt
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 3,192
And...since 1994 we have had some changes that is for sure:
- deer tags cut by 60%
- 1000s of tags taken out of the general pool and sold.
- deer still not at objective numbers, while States around us have grown herd, lost herds and regrown them
- hunter success rates for deer remain flat.
- le units becoming once in a lifetime.
I could go in for 2 pages.
The bottom line is this.
SFW, and now BGF are in business to make money.
They have been successful, by first, using fear, now smoke and mirrors.
They have been a great lobby organization, related to fund collection.
They have rallied the guide community, rallied some rich guys, and brought along a very few normal folk.
They are promising a few people an opportunity to hunt whenever they want, and feeding these opportunities to guides.
We will see a fun expo every year, a few emails from BGF...and spend OUR millions for that.
So, yes, since the great rally of 1994, much has changed.
- deer tags cut by 60%
- 1000s of tags taken out of the general pool and sold.
- deer still not at objective numbers, while States around us have grown herd, lost herds and regrown them
- hunter success rates for deer remain flat.
- le units becoming once in a lifetime.
I could go in for 2 pages.
The bottom line is this.
SFW, and now BGF are in business to make money.
They have been successful, by first, using fear, now smoke and mirrors.
They have been a great lobby organization, related to fund collection.
They have rallied the guide community, rallied some rich guys, and brought along a very few normal folk.
They are promising a few people an opportunity to hunt whenever they want, and feeding these opportunities to guides.
We will see a fun expo every year, a few emails from BGF...and spend OUR millions for that.
So, yes, since the great rally of 1994, much has changed.
desertpointbrian
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 1,346
Well said bowhunt
hossblur
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 10,699
>And...since 1994 we have had some
>changes that is for sure:
>
>- deer tags cut by 60%
>
>- 1000s of tags taken out
>of the general pool and
>sold.
>- deer still not at objective
>numbers, while States around us
>have grown herd, lost herds
>and regrown them
>- hunter success rates for deer
>remain flat.
>- le units becoming once in
>a lifetime.
>I could go in for 2
>pages.
>The bottom line is this.
>
>SFW, and now BGF are in
>business to make money.
>They have been successful, by first,
>using fear, now smoke and
>mirrors.
>They have been a great lobby
>organization, related to fund collection.
>
>They have rallied the guide community,
>rallied some rich guys, and
>brought along a very few
>normal folk.
>They are promising a few people
>an opportunity to hunt whenever
>they want, and feeding these
>opportunities to guides.
>We will see a fun expo
>every year, a few emails
>from BGF...and spend OUR millions
>for that.
>
>So, yes, since the great rally
>of 1994, much has changed.
>
Don't forget the biggest one. 150-200k hunters left our ranks. And took that voting block, that tax money, and that support and took up golf and skiing. See without that voting counterbalance other outdoor related industries increased their power, and influence while ours stagnated. We are no longer politically powerful, which ironically enough is how $fw grew their power. Their tiny membership numbers compared to 250k hunters was/is nothing. But by weeding them out THE DON et al "increased" their power by being able to claim they represented a large percentage of the population. They don't, they represent the same percentage of LE, closed access, CWMU hunters they always did, they just manage to cut out the tags and opportunities from the other side.
Muley, how about this, a state constitutional amendment declaring hunting/fishing a right. That's how we guarantee our kids have the heritage. Of course then $fw wouldn't be needed to "protect our rights". Again, closing access to land, closing access to tags, closing access to streams. How does $fw help preserve anything for your kids? Where is all the acreage they have opened up? If $fw was as successful as you say they are, shouldn't they have put themselves out of a job by now? Seriously, they came about to "save the mule deer", you claim they are highly successful, then the deer are saved they can now go away right?
Muley you said it best, they are very successful at operating in the system. But I was alive in 94. I was here when they started. I don't remember their goal to be "saving the system" Seems like they might have lost their way a bit if that is now their claim to fame.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
>changes that is for sure:
>
>- deer tags cut by 60%
>
>- 1000s of tags taken out
>of the general pool and
>sold.
>- deer still not at objective
>numbers, while States around us
>have grown herd, lost herds
>and regrown them
>- hunter success rates for deer
>remain flat.
>- le units becoming once in
>a lifetime.
>I could go in for 2
>pages.
>The bottom line is this.
>
>SFW, and now BGF are in
>business to make money.
>They have been successful, by first,
>using fear, now smoke and
>mirrors.
>They have been a great lobby
>organization, related to fund collection.
>
>They have rallied the guide community,
>rallied some rich guys, and
>brought along a very few
>normal folk.
>They are promising a few people
>an opportunity to hunt whenever
>they want, and feeding these
>opportunities to guides.
>We will see a fun expo
>every year, a few emails
>from BGF...and spend OUR millions
>for that.
>
>So, yes, since the great rally
>of 1994, much has changed.
>
Don't forget the biggest one. 150-200k hunters left our ranks. And took that voting block, that tax money, and that support and took up golf and skiing. See without that voting counterbalance other outdoor related industries increased their power, and influence while ours stagnated. We are no longer politically powerful, which ironically enough is how $fw grew their power. Their tiny membership numbers compared to 250k hunters was/is nothing. But by weeding them out THE DON et al "increased" their power by being able to claim they represented a large percentage of the population. They don't, they represent the same percentage of LE, closed access, CWMU hunters they always did, they just manage to cut out the tags and opportunities from the other side.
Muley, how about this, a state constitutional amendment declaring hunting/fishing a right. That's how we guarantee our kids have the heritage. Of course then $fw wouldn't be needed to "protect our rights". Again, closing access to land, closing access to tags, closing access to streams. How does $fw help preserve anything for your kids? Where is all the acreage they have opened up? If $fw was as successful as you say they are, shouldn't they have put themselves out of a job by now? Seriously, they came about to "save the mule deer", you claim they are highly successful, then the deer are saved they can now go away right?
Muley you said it best, they are very successful at operating in the system. But I was alive in 94. I was here when they started. I don't remember their goal to be "saving the system" Seems like they might have lost their way a bit if that is now their claim to fame.
"The only thing that stops a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
Muley_73
Very Active Member
- Messages
- 2,800
And round and round we go, now I could type 2 pages of why we've lost hunters and our deer and the good thst SFW has done. Like I've done over and over again and to the haters it will make no difference. My goodness I can't imagine feeling so picked on constantly.
Hoss,
I make sure my kids get as much oppurtuniy as they want. I don't expect someone else to take care of them and give them hand outs. Work hard and good things happen. It's all a matter of what you value and what you put your energy toward. The anti SFW crowd is focusing their energy on toppling an organization, not creating opportuntiy or bettering our wildlife situation. So I don't support that, pretty simple concept in my mind.
Hoss,
I make sure my kids get as much oppurtuniy as they want. I don't expect someone else to take care of them and give them hand outs. Work hard and good things happen. It's all a matter of what you value and what you put your energy toward. The anti SFW crowd is focusing their energy on toppling an organization, not creating opportuntiy or bettering our wildlife situation. So I don't support that, pretty simple concept in my mind.
Vanilla
Long Time Member
- Messages
- 4,750
Muley73,
I think you just simply misunderstand where other people are coming from on this. Of course everyone won't see eye to eye on everything, and there is even room for disagreement in wildlife management issues. But nobody in the SFW leadership can say with a clear conscience they they still espouse this as a guiding mission:
"The mission of SFW is to promote the protection and enhancement of wildlife habitat, assist in providing quality wildlife management programs, educating the public about the role hunters play in wildlife conservation, and perpetuating the family tradition of hunting and fishing."
No conservation/sportsman organization that I am aware of has lobbied so diligently to take away opportunities from hunters and fishermen than SFW. We can banter back and forth if people support their cause in that or not, but it can't be factually debated that SFW leadership has not lobbied for reduced opportunity, and certainly does not support the "family tradition of hunting and fishing."
Maybe if the state quits giving hand outs to them constantly with no vetting or accountability, the leadership will go away and SFW can follow its mission statement. But that will never happen under Don's watchful eye.
I think you just simply misunderstand where other people are coming from on this. Of course everyone won't see eye to eye on everything, and there is even room for disagreement in wildlife management issues. But nobody in the SFW leadership can say with a clear conscience they they still espouse this as a guiding mission:
"The mission of SFW is to promote the protection and enhancement of wildlife habitat, assist in providing quality wildlife management programs, educating the public about the role hunters play in wildlife conservation, and perpetuating the family tradition of hunting and fishing."
No conservation/sportsman organization that I am aware of has lobbied so diligently to take away opportunities from hunters and fishermen than SFW. We can banter back and forth if people support their cause in that or not, but it can't be factually debated that SFW leadership has not lobbied for reduced opportunity, and certainly does not support the "family tradition of hunting and fishing."
Maybe if the state quits giving hand outs to them constantly with no vetting or accountability, the leadership will go away and SFW can follow its mission statement. But that will never happen under Don's watchful eye.
