claimed by who?

[ce61]

claimed by who?

when I first started coming to this site there was info that people were giving that was backed by actual experience. now alot of the posts I'm reading are something off the manufacturers website. what they claim, be it b.c., velocity,accuracy, etc.
if you found a bullet that shot great out of your gun,tell us, I'd be interested.
if you chronographed a factory round and were impressed with the speed, tell us, again interesting.
if you buy a new gun and it shoots great, cool, tell us.
BUT this i looked on this site and they claimed this is getting OLD!!!! IF you actually use the product and can say it works better than another product, tell us.
so much information, given by the manufacturers, is useless, are they gonna say that the other brand is better??????????ce61

 

[redrabbit]

RE: claimed by who?

I doubt many have the ballistic equipment to measure BCs for a bunch of bullets, so we are forced to rely on manufacturers values, inflated as some like Barnes may be.

If we rely on individual experience, then we are going on many samples of one. Should we discount the Model 70 as unsafe because my safety cam stuck on fire this past coues hunt? Discount the Nosler Accubond because my recovered bullet showed evidence of tumbing inside the Sitka blacktail? Should we not consider a test done by a writer of various bullets through a uniform media that would give a standardized comparison (although not equitable to game, but those shots vary from animal to animal)? I would rather base my choice on magazine articles such as the Berger article than the sample of one by an internet poster. I would not discount an internet post but add it to the overall evaluation.

Doug~RR

 

[ce61]

RE: claimed by who?

all i'm trying to say is it would be nice to hear of somebody actually shooting a shot out of a gun. rather than saying i read this on so and so's website. it's higher, faster, gotta be better. try it and tell us- that would be great. on the muzzleloader page somebody asked about a certain bullet, a guy posts back that he tried them and they were easier to load and about the same price and would buy them again,that's useful info.
would like to see more posts like that. somebody should buy all those slow 270 loads, rebox them, get a website and list the b.c. at .560 and sell them like hotcakes.LOL.... ce61

 

[daniel]

RE: claimed by who?

I use BC's as a guideline. They are different from manufacturer to manufacturer. Shoot for accuracy at 100, check velocity with chrono, plug in velocity and BC into JBM, use this as guideline out to extended ranges, verify comeups, you're done.

 

[lve2143]

RE: claimed by who?

RedRabbit,

I don't think I've ever corresponded with you
personally, but have read many things you have
to say since I've been on MM.

I've never, that I can remember, disagree'd with
anything you said. If I see RR on a link.......
I read it.

Thanks man

Larry

 

[mtmuley]

RE: claimed by who?

I also use bc as a guideline. After chronographing my loads, I use published bc and Sierra Infinity. THEN, I take the printout to the range and verify on paper. So far, Sierra is dang close to real world shooting. I've practiced out to 500 yds every year with my preffered hunting rifle. After that, I can claim what my gun will do. mtmuley

 

[sageadvice]

RE: claimed by who?

ce61, you were kind enough to contribute some excellent information and advice on my thread, so i think it only fair to try and answer some of your question being it partly involves me and my thread.

I'm no youngser and have been shooting casually, competitively, and most inmportantly, for Hunting purposes, since i was just a kid. I've surrounded myself with knowledgable friends and some of the best hunters in these parts, we talk and compare a lot. I've also read everything i could get my hands on and there's always a stack of 5 or 6 different monthly shooting-gun publications by my bed. Each of the guns that i hunt with has been shot many times from 100 thru 500yds, by my rangefinder, and i have the bullet drops documented and committed to memory.

All guns interest me, but I can't hunt, own, or shoot with them all. Many people have had a hand in what i know today. I've heard some good stuff and then there is some bad. It all goes toward making the final decision, mine, whether or not i'll pursue something with a purchase.

I look top these kinds of venues to further my education, contribute what i do know, and hopefully, make a new buddy or two along the way. I do feel that i'm qualified to have an opinion and the right, same as anybody else, to express it on these pages. It saddens me when someone goes out of their way to descredit my ideas and opinions. Isn't there room for fresh ideas, new blood? I have paid my dues.

Joey

 

[ce61]

RE: claimed by who?

sage, all guns interest me as well. i value your opinion, but i wish it was always yours. alot of the posts i see lately are what somebody read off a website. are the manufacturers gonna say our stuff isn't as good as the other guy, but hey they come in a cool looking box.....
your post on the 270wsm with the rem .loads, have you shot them? do they shoot well? i'm interested.
look at those 7mm 168 sierra bullets with a claimed b.c. of .488 alot of people shoot these bullets out to 1000 yards for target shooting. why,because they shoot as good as the bullets with the claimed b.c.s in the .600s
i apologize to you if you think i am trying to discredit your opinions, because i'm not. but i would like to hear peoples opinions based on something other than what the guy that makes the product says on his website. ce61

 

[Pre64]

RE: claimed by who?

LAST EDITED ON May-21-08 AT 09:25AM (MST)[p]This is about as objective as its gonna get on the internet. This is a 130 gr. scirroco taken from just under the hide on a quartering away shot at a full grown cow. Bullet passed through both lungs and recovered weight was 125ish. About 300 yards. MV 3100 fps from a 270 Win. Don't know what the BC is but sighted in at 250 I aim dead on to 300 and 8" high at 350. 400 is about a foot high, or so. If I shoot beyond that I get the 300.

 

[Boskee]

RE: claimed by who?

We are all subject to buying a product on what we read in everyday life and every one of us has made a bad purchase one time or another because of deceptive advertising. Some of the best companies on earth have all had an EDSEL in their lineup. So I think a guy getting on here and writing what he's read on a product isn't so bad to check the water. After all there certainly aren't too many ballistic engineers on here as members so we have to rely on each other. There is a ton of experienced individuals on this site and we all learn some things from one another.

Some of the misconceptions on here are ours, the writers and the advertisers and I don't know about you guys but I don't always have time to sort it out. There are a couple of things that we need to think about regarding this matter. Ballistics programs usually don't lie when the data is entered in correctly and when 2 sites state the same information that pretty much verifies what a guy says. One load that was a factory load was on remingtons calculator and was also on Hornady's and guess what the figures were the same but yet some took issue with it because he didn't say that was what he got out of his gun. I don't know about you guys but I don't own the fancy equipment to verify the energy figures and velocity figures at different points so I have to trust a ballistics table. I also know from being in the gun business that they're fairly accurate and are relied upon from some pretty high profile shooters. In reality what he got out of his gun more than likely won't be the same out of your gun on the day you shot it either! Ballistics tables are approximations and there will be deviations based on many factors and so you may not get the same level of performance at 600ft that you will at 6000 on a 30 degree morning. BC is ONE factor in chosing a bullet and there are other factors to be considered. Both of these guys made some good points worth considering and contributed to the thread. I guess the point I'm trying to make here is that it doesn't get any better than that and therein lies the purpose of this site. I've picked up some good info here and I look forward to more in the future. But we need to keep an open mind and use what you want and discard or store the rest. Practical application is good but sometimes just posting up some information can be just as valuable and may just be what some guy was looking for and save him a ton of trial and error. Its all good it's just that some is better than others depending on your immediate need.

 

[ce61]

RE: claimed by who?

pre64, i hope that was a cow elk. LOL.looks like good bullet performance, bet she didn't go to far. ce61

 

[Boskee]

RE: claimed by who?

I was wondering the same thing CE! But it might have been an angus and they're tasty too!

 

[ammoman16]

RE: claimed by who?

I have come to trust certain manufacturers claims based on personal experience. On the thread that i'm sure is responsible for this one, I mentioned bc's of some various Berger bullets. I only stated them because i've had personal experience with them and they have flown as they should for a bullet with a bc in that range. I don't have the tools to calculate actual bc, but my in the field experience would indicate to me that their claims are pretty close.

 

[ammoman16]

RE: claimed by who?

Oh, and by the way, I am probably the last person to believe an ammunition maker's claims. They are always overstating their numbers, particularily velocity, in order to increase sales. I've seen this over and over running factory ammunition over a chrono. That being said, I rarely fire factory cartridges, due to the fact that i can load, faster, more accurate ammunition, shooting better bullets, for much less.

 

[Pre64]

RE: claimed by who?

+1 Ammoman

 

[sageadvice]

RE: claimed by who?

LAST EDITED ON May-22-08 AT 00:54AM (MST)[p]Well guys, after reviewing these last few threads and all the posts involved, i'm of opinion that this isn't really any kind of a big deal. i thought that i had covered my bases in describing the calibers that we were to compare to and that i was going with factory ammo because if a normal Joe goes to the store, buys a gun, mounts, and a scope, he's probably going to buy a couple boxes of shells to go with it. I guess the parimiters of the statement weren't clear enough and i'll take the blame for that confusion.

As far as, "do i actually shoot the .270WSM?", yes and no. "Yes" i have shot it many times at my home made range out to 500yds and have so far, only shot factory, will continue to do so. The gun actually shoots better than i do. When i'm having a good day with nice conditions, i've grouped 3 in 2" at 300yds, not bad for a gun, model 70 SS classic, only having minor smith work performed, mostly a factory setup.

When i say "no", it's because i have 4-5 other guns that i hunt with and have yet to kill a buck with the 270WSM. Daniel had made a great timely comment that the 270WSM is already loaded to the nuts, at 65k psi, it would be tough to improve on that factory loading. Even before knowing that, i was already very impressed with the groups i was getting and the measured drops of the bullets at distance that these mild recoiling factory's were providing. What i have read on the cartridge backed my findings, i always like something a bit different, and have also always been into the "smaller" calibers. So, thought i'd make a bold statement posting a new thread and see what becomes of it. I still believe my statement to be true but learned plenty along the way.

Some of you may be like a lot of guys i've met at the range that shoot a lot, really into it,... some like to go on the occational hunt. No, i don't have a crono myself and some of the other things some feel nessesary. I consider myself more of a hunter that happens to have a strong interest in shooting. Anyway, good hunting!

Joey

 

[Boskee]

RE: claimed by who?

You're 100% right and there has been some good information on those threads. Here's what I've found factory ammo shoots some great groups out of some guns and won't out of others. The ammo made today is some of the best we have had in years and the bullet selection is fabulous. We shot federal premium out of guns where I worked to qualify them for 5 shots in 1/2" at 100 yards and many did better than that on factory fodder. Our sniper rifles shot bought boxed factory ammunition because that's how most cities buy their ammo from the ammo companies so yes it shoots. Others we had to tweak the loads and play with the seating depth a bit but this most certainly wasn't the majority of the guns we built. Reloading is definately cheaper and will be more accurate and is a good way to go but it's nice to know you can walk into a gun store an pick up a box of ammo that will shoot out of your gun especially if your ammo gets lost on a fly in hunt. A few shots and a few clicks and you're on your way and your hunts not ruined. Not a bad alternative at all and you'll still put the meat on the table.