Can Cache Deer Herd match Wyoming Range Deer Herd

[gundog2]

I was reading the UDWR Deer Herd Unit #2 (Cache) Deer DEER HERD UNIT MANAGEMENT PLAN dated January 2013. The combined size of summer range, winter range, and yearlong range is reportedly 923,198 acres (1,442 square miles). The short-term and long-term management objective is 25,000 deer, but they reported a post-2018 population estimate of only 20,800 deer in the 2019-04_rac_packet.pdf last year.
I
In February 2018, the Wyoming Game and Fish Department conducted an exhaustive count of the Wyoming Range Deer Herd, which stretches from the Snake River Canyon nea4 Alpine in the north to Evanston in the south. Well over 100 hours were spent in a helicopter Coverin* the 1,600 square miles (976,000 acres). This was the most comprehensive survey of this deer herd ever conducted. They counted a total of 25,300 deer, but they estimated a herd size of 29,000 using a sightability correction factor.

How do these statistics compare? Well, not too bad actually. The Cache Deer Herd had about 14.4 deer per square mile in 2018 compared to about 18.1 deer per square mile for the Wyoming Range Deer Herd in 2018. However, the Cache Deer Herd would have about 17.3 deer per square mile if we reach the management plan objectives. These numbers seem to suggest that the Cache Deer Herd could match the Wyoming Range Deer Herd with a little more effort. So what really needs to be done?

 

[fullthrottle]

Here’s the problem. Wyoming actually counts the deer. Utah, pulls BS numbers from charts and graphs. Utah does a very good job kidding themselves about the deer numbers.

 

[mtnrunner260]

How many of the 14.4 deer per square mile are unavailable to the public during hunting season due to cwmus, towns and other private property?
The cache will never be G or H unfortunately.

 

[huntin50]

The problem is the Cache unit currently only has 4,000-8,000 deer.
Even the Cache biologist who worked 25 years ago does not agree with DWR SLC deer numbers.

I personally know quite well some of the people doing helicopter counts on the Cache. They agree the SLC numbers are inflated.

Collaring studies show poor recruitment on the Cache. Last year only one of the fawns survived out of 50. This is why the DWR is doing more focus on predator's. Lions, coyotes, and bobcats.

Wyoming has better winter range, but also colder weather.
This could be a long discussion and I'm out of time.

 

[shootem]

I would wager to say that the Cache deer herd has less than 10K deer on the entire unit, that includes private property. There is no way there are more than that. I live on the cache unit and spend every day observing deer on the unit. There are very few deer to be seen and little has been done to reduce the number of permits issued. The Cache is basically a cash cow for the division and will ultimately sell all tags offered whether there are deer or not.

 

[Cheater]

Personally, I think the Cache has amazing potential, but would need to be managed much differently. Not sure the DWR or majority of hunters care to take those measures though.

They are rare, but some of the bucks that come off the Cache are as good as anywhere.

 

[Stonefly]

I do not know much about the cache, i do have experiance with a few other units. I spend countless days eaxh year on the Dutton, and live in the Manti. I also visit the west wasatch, and boulder unit. The Utah DWR have several times listed , im going to call a spade a spade, LIES! about Deer Numbers in these areas. I base this on not just witness of animals But, also talking with others and hearing their opinions. I have hunted Dutton for right around 30 years, and it now is at the worst i have ever seen it. Its pitiful. 15 years ago we could find 15 to 18 bucks each day, now its tough to find 15 total deer in a day. Anyway my best guess is the DWR numbers are off on these units by 40-60%. And the buck does ratio is off 40% on most. Btw the areas i visit dont have towns, cmwu, or private near them

 

[middlefork]

So somebody propose a solution to the inaccurate numbers.
If the guys doing helicopter counts are saying the numbers are wrong what are the numbers they have and what formula is the DWR using to get the inflated numbers?

I have yet to see a logical solution proposed to get accurate numbers.

 

[elkassassin]

So somebody propose a solution to the inaccurate numbers.
If the guys doing helicopter counts are saying the numbers are wrong what are the numbers they have and what formula is the DWR using to get the inflated numbers?

I have yet to see a logical solution proposed to get accurate numbers.

Probably not a way for exact Number Counts?

But We All know this:

And I'll Exclude Niller because I Don't Think He Believes us!

We Know there Ain't as Many Deer as the DWR Boasts!

We Know Many Units are in Big Trouble!

I've seen it Showing for Decades!

But everybody wants to Shoot a PISSCUTTER every year!

Well here the HELL We are!

 

[mtnrunner260]

Here's your chance to ask them how they come up with the population estimates and whatever else.

 

[middlefork]

I was out there. Unfortunately I missed the opportunity to ask that question.
Although from other discussion and answers I got the impression maybe they knew what they were talking about.

 

[Stonefly]

Middlefork, i have heard several rumors as to how counts are done., Its plain that with Muledeer, wintering herds group on the range , and that is the easiest time to count them. The problem with this is, where do these Deer habitate, in other times of the year, like a month prior to moving into winterrange. There are areas where wintering Deer may come from several areas, and congest into a single winter range. So are the congested numbers of a single winterrange used to set tag numbers on 2 or 3 general areas? Also, as for buck to doe ratios, when the Deer are counted, on winterrange, vast areas of some winterrange, locations are within farming land, and rural municipalities, where hunting is not allowed. And this leads to inflated Buck/Doe ratios. I belive manditory hunter reporting, is the best way to get info for specific areas. Its far from perfect, but, its probably the way to get the counts close.

 

[middlefork]

This years radio collar studies are in part designed to study migration patterns. So that might help.

I'm not sure how mandatory reporting equates to more accurate herd numbers. More accurate harvest numbers maybe, but herd numbers?

I understand there is currently an ongoing cougar study using radio collars also on the Cache. It appears to be raising more questions than answers at the moment but maybe as the study goes on some pattern will show itself.

 

[Stonefly]

Middlefork, by manditory reporting i ment for instance ,
Number of days on unit scouting preseasion
Number of Deer seen per day, and buck doe ratio
Number of days hunting
Number of Deer seen per day
Total number of Deer
Total number of Bucks
Did you harvest an animal.
What ever method the DWR is using it isnt working on the areas i regulary visit. Its been said the sportsman will have to make changes to get this ball rolling, and reporting like iv listed above would be a low impact way to start it. If it happend you could add a question for successful hunters to try and determine age class,
3 or less points per side spresad of 15" or less
3 or more points spread of 20" or less
3 or more points over 22" spread
Ect...

 

[elkassassin]

I Think Counts as of Lately were calculated kinda like this here:

Go to the Most congested Winter range you can find!

Count them Deer in a 3 square mile radius!

Count every Deer 3 Times!

Divide the 3 square miles into Utah Total Square Miles and Mutiply it by your Total Deer Count and then Advertise right before Deer Season that The Herd is Better than it's been in many years!

And People will SUCK that BS in I Guess?

 

[BillyBoB]

I’ve spent a lot of time on the cache the last 5 years and the last couple of years have been the worst that I have seen.
I’ve noticed a decline in elk quality (bulls) and a huge decrease in deer numbers.
utahs method of counting is ridiculous and the numbers are over inflated to hype up hunters to break out their wallets.
I too believe mandatory reporting is necessary.
Also
Ive spent enough time in south western Wyoming that I’d say Wyoming easily has twice the number of deer than cache

 

[middlefork]

Stonefly,
I guess I still don't get.
So 1800 hunters on the Cache answer the questions.
Hunter A sees 5 deer a day
Hunter B sees 50 deer a day
Hunter C sees 100 deer a day
Hunter D sees 15 deer over 2 days
Do you multiply the deer seen divided by days and multiply by 1800?
In what possible way can this be more accurate?

There is no way to figure out how many times a single deer is counted.

A few people on here make a WAG and it is a better way to count?

I've spent plenty of time on the unit. I am not saying the herd isn't down.

 

[middlefork]

And I don't think the DWR has to inflate numbers to sell tags. They will sell out no matter how many people complain of low numbers.

 

[Stonefly]

Your right nothing will work better than the exceptional way its done now, making suggestions like mine are stupid, must be why everyone i talked to agree numbers are down, except the proffessional DWR deer counters. Wish i were the C guy in your responce, and could see 100 per day, i might have seen 150 in the 19 days i spent scouting and hunting this year, but i guess i just dont know how to count deer. Ill leave it alone for now and just be happy we have experts to do it for me

 

[slamdunk]

View attachment 366

Here's your chance to ask them how they come up with the population estimates and whatever else.

I asked a deer counting question and specifically asked about the Beaver unit.
Crickets......

 

[elkassassin]

That Tell You anything PUNK?

There Must Be Plenty of Deer Everywhere in the State!

Because They're gonna Sell Plenty of Tags to Hunt them!

Another Thing that's Bad is quite a few Hunters that Mighta Held out to try & Find a Better Buck are Gonna Resort To Shooting a PISSCUTTER when that's all they can find!

That Ain't gonna Help Matters!

But They've gotta Satisfy their selves with:

"I FILLED MY TAG"!

"I NEEDED THE MEAT"!

"I'M ENTITLED"!

The List Goes on & on with BS Excuses!

I asked a deer counting question and specifically asked about the Beaver unit.
Crickets......

 

[middlefork]

Your right nothing will work better than the exceptional way its done now, making suggestions like mine are stupid, must be why everyone i talked to agree numbers are down, except the proffessional DWR deer counters. Wish i were the C guy in your responce, and could see 100 per day, i might have seen 150 in the 19 days i spent scouting and hunting this year, but i guess i just dont know how to count deer. Ill leave it alone for now and just be happy we have experts to do it for me

I'm not apposed, just trying to understand how it will help. It just seems like it doesn't address the problem any more than Elkass's count above.

I like to hunt. Been awhile since I've had a reason to shoot. Can't hunt without a tag.

If it will help the herd, close down the whole damn state. If people can't find the type of deer they want to shoot, in the quantity they want to see it shouldn't matter at all.

 

[travishunter3006]

We don't yet know anything about wildlife and their movement. We know nothing about range management and how animals move from range to range or even state to state. There just isnt the funding to accomplish these needs. I mean, it is the government's bloated spending we are talking about here. The number one rule of starting a government agency is to supervise supervisors. If we got the counts the way we needed every year they would need to start a new division of the F&G and appoint a director and 38 supervisors to watch the 5 guys on the ground actually counting deer. There are so many more things behind this issue than we will ever know. The one thing we do know... for sure... is the toll predators and vehicles take on deer herds. The answer is somewhere in there.

 

[hossblur]

Anyone ask wyoming how many Utah/deer or elk they counted that winter out of the Uintas?

How about all the deer Arizona "has".

Go start looking at the migration studies and all you, "winter range" guys might be a little surprised how winter range actually works.

There ain't a deer alive that gives a crap about state boundaries. It's a stupid discussion unless you mark each deer. Last week Wyoming, Tommorow the Crawford's.

I'm still waiting for the conspiracy theory.

$$$ again? Every guy in here complaining will put in for a tag.


But. Here it is almost draw time. Can't wait to see all the guys who are posting pics of them cutting up the tags. Everyone so concerned and all, seems pretty fair, cut the tag, far gets money, you "save the deer".

 

[BillyBoB]

Anyone ask wyoming how many Utah/deer or elk they counted that winter out of the Uintas?

How about all the deer Arizona "has".

Go start looking at the migration studies and all you, "winter range" guys might be a little surprised how winter range actually works.

There ain't a deer alive that gives a crap about state boundaries. It's a stupid discussion unless you mark each deer. Last week Wyoming, Tommorow the Crawford's.

I'm still waiting for the conspiracy theory.

$$$ again? Every guy in here complaining will put in for a tag.


But. Here it is almost draw time. Can't wait to see all the guys who are posting pics of them cutting up the tags. Everyone so concerned and all, seems pretty fair, cut the tag, far gets money, you "save the deer".

I have no problem cutting my tag up. It’s what I usually do 9 times out of 10.
I’m perfectly capable of policing myself while afield on what the best decision to do based off of what I see.
I didn’t even look at a critter last year through my rifle scope during my hunt. Didn’t need to! Saw a decent amount through my Binos and spotter. Still had fun! I’ll try it again this year also.
For you to equate my passion for mule deer to cutting my tag up upon its arrival in the mail is hog wash

 

[hossblur]

I have no problem cutting my tag up. It’s what I usually do 9 times out of 10.
I’m perfectly capable of policing myself while afield on what the best decision to do based off of what I see.
I didn’t even look at a critter last year through my rifle scope during my hunt. Didn’t need to! Saw a decent amount through my Binos and spotter. Still had fun! I’ll try it again this year also.
For you to equate my passion for mule deer to cutting my tag up upon its arrival in the mail is hog wash

No, it's not. Read in here. It's a handful of dudes who squeal about curling tag numbers.

My challenge to them was simple. Draw the tag, so the DWR gets funds, then post a pic with it cut up.

Not go hunt. Cut it up. Stay home.

Funny. Not one guy who squeals about SOMEONE ELSE taking a tag cut, has offered to do it themselves.

It's been 5 years since I shot anything. As a dedicated. But I'm honest. I want a tag. I want to hunt every year.

They ain't.

In fact a pile of them will show up at the expo and try to draw deer tags there.

What they are for is SOMEONE ELSE staying .
If you believe we are at a point to cut tags, tgen you should also be for cutting yourself.

 

[BillyBoB]

No, it's not. Read in here. It's a handful of dudes who squeal about curling tag numbers.

My challenge to them was simple. Draw the tag, so the DWR gets funds, then post a pic with it cut up.

Not go hunt. Cut it up. Stay home.

Funny. Not one guy who squeals about SOMEONE ELSE taking a tag cut, has offered to do it themselves.

It's been 5 years since I shot anything. As a dedicated. But I'm honest. I want a tag. I want to hunt every year.

They ain't.

In fact a pile of them will show up at the expo and try to draw deer tags there.

What they are for is SOMEONE ELSE staying .
If you believe we are at a point to cut tags, tgen you should also be for cutting yourself.

I’m for tag reductions as well! Only because I know the majority of hunters aren’t good at policing themselves while in the field. If more hunters were inclined to make a more conservative effort while hunting, then I’d probably have the same outlook you have.
The reality is no one will pay the funds, draw the tag, cut it up and stay home. But I hope more are consciousness and consider several factors such as the number of critters they see both preseason and during the season, range and habitat conditions, how many fawns they see, body conditions,etc and decide how bad they really need that meat before pulling the trigger or releasing that arrow.
More than likely I will only be taking my rifle for a walk again this year like I did last year.

asking for tag reductions doesn’t mean me wanting SOME ONE ELSE to not get a tag. It means reducing EVERYONES chance INCLUDING MY OWN.
If the state can’t force hunters to look at the bigger picture and get rid of the me,me,me mentality, tag reductions it will be if it’s warranted.

 

[hossblur]

I’m for tag reductions as well! Only because I know the majority of hunters aren’t good at policing themselves while in the field. If more hunters were inclined to make a more conservative effort while hunting, then I’d probably have the same outlook you have.
The reality is no one will pay the funds, draw the tag, cut it up and stay home. But I hope more are consciousness and consider several factors such as the number of critters they see both preseason and during the season, range and habitat conditions, how many fawns they see, body conditions,etc and decide how bad they really need that meat before pulling the trigger or releasing that arrow.
More than likely I will only be taking my rifle for a walk again this year like I did last year.

asking for tag reductions doesn’t mean me wanting SOME ONE ELSE to not get a tag. It means reducing EVERYONES chance INCLUDING MY OWN.
If the state can’t force hunters to look at the bigger picture and get rid of the me,me,me mentality, tag reductions it will be if it’s warranted.

I'm more where you are.


Except. I remember hearing how tag cuts would save mule deer from a special interest group.

It didn't. It just gave them a chance to monopolize.

I don't kill does, or fawns. Bucks don't grow herds.

I also know that while there may not be 20,000 deer on the cache. There ain't 4000 either.

There are a lot of dudes amongst us that have bought into the fantasy of mature bucks around every corner, cuz grandpa tells good stories, and no one posts on IG unless it's big.

Truth is, you and I nor hunting so rich dudes can or cats can eat does no service to either of us