Bit of a kick in the butt by Robb Wiley

Bravo mulecreek and jm77! I couldn't have said things any better than your posts. Now all hunting is to many people is kill a big one and hunting is now even referenced by many as an "Industry". Sad, very very sad that what I grew up knowing as a hunting/outdoors adventure has turned into what it has today for the simple word "Greed". Greed for money and greed to kill a big animal no matter what it takes or how unethical it may be to accomplish it!
 
Sounds pretty lame and easy. Let me try.....it's as lame as shooting a duck on water.
Hmmmmmmmm, sure hasn't felt that lame. Or that easy. Probably just me. I'll try to pay better attention this year and let you know how lame it is. ha ha ha


>"Come on man, you sound like
>one of those politicians who
>think that me telling someone
>where I saw a deer
>makes it so easy to
>harvest that deer. Have you
>ever scouted? Are the bucks
>you find scouting that easy
>to just show up and
>shoot? If they are that
>easy, then scouting for all
>should be outlawed. Come on
>man! I ain't selling a
>deer in a cage. They're
>really hard to get, even
>when you know where they
>live."
>
>Come on man, don't make it
>seem like finding a buck
>in G or H is
>all that hard to do.
> What is hard to
>do is find a 180
>or better buck. That
>is what you are selling,
>a B&C score and you
>are selling it to people
>that are so worried about
>going home with 160" buck
>or worse yet an unfilled
>tag that they are willing
>to pay you to hunt
>the critter for them.
>It is emblematic of everything
>I think sucks about modern
>day hunting, if you could
>even call it that.
>Earlier you used the example
>of a guy that waited
>for 7 days to kill
>a buck you hunted for
>him as proof that he
>is a hunter. Well,
>if I buy some piece
>of crap furniture from IKEA
>and it takes me 7
>days to put it together
>do I get to call
>myself a woodworker?
>
>I agree with you that what
>you are selling is no
>different than some outfitted hunts.
> However, not all outfitted
>hunts are like that.
>What you are selling is
>as lame as whitetail hunt
>over a corn flinger, an
>African bowhunt from a concrete
>blind over a waterhole or
>a Sask whitetail hunt over
>bail of hay. I
>wouldn't go on any of
>those hunts and I wouldn't
>use your service either.
>The fact that so many
>want what you are selling
>is the problem. Whether
>it is taxed, legal or
>illegal is irrelevant in my
>mind. It is just
>lame.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
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>Sounds pretty lame and easy. Let
>me try.....it's as lame as
>shooting a duck on water.
>
>Hmmmmmmmm, sure hasn't felt that lame.
>Or that easy. Probably just
>me. I'll try to pay
>better attention this year and
>let you know how lame
>it is. ha ha ha
>
I doubt it is lame for you. You are doing all the fun stuff. I would imagine your part in this transaction is the second most enjoyable way to make money in this world. The people that use your service are the ones selling themselves and the hunt short.
 
What's the #1 most enjoyable way to make money? Maybe I need to look into that! You ain't talkin' man whorin' are ya, cause my wife ain't going for that. But dang, could I make some bank! ha ha

Seriously, I agree that the scouting is enjoyable. At least for me it is. Hard work, no doubt, but fun. I don't think it's all the fun stuff though. The hunting part is fun too. Obviously most people who hunt Western Wyoming find the hunting to be the most enjoyable, because plenty of people show up for the hunt, but rarely do I see others scouting. So your opinion there might be shared with the minority.
But, most people don't have bosses as wonderful as mine (ha ha) who lets me work from the mountain, so they may not have the time off to scout and hunt.



>>Sounds pretty lame and easy. Let
>>me try.....it's as lame as
>>shooting a duck on water.
>>
>>Hmmmmmmmm, sure hasn't felt that lame.
>>Or that easy. Probably just
>>me. I'll try to pay
>>better attention this year and
>>let you know how lame
>>it is. ha ha ha
>>
>I doubt it is lame for
>you. You are doing
>all the fun stuff.
>I would imagine your part
>in this transaction is the
>second most enjoyable way to
>make money in this world.
> The people that use
>your service are the ones
>selling themselves and the hunt
>short.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
>What's the #1 most enjoyable way
>to make money? Maybe I
>need to look into that!
>You ain't talkin' man whorin'
>are ya, cause my wife
>ain't going for that. But
>dang, could I make some
>bank! ha ha
>

You nailed that one quickly.

>Seriously, I agree that the scouting
>is enjoyable. At least for
>me it is. Hard work,
>no doubt, but fun. I
>don't think it's all the
>fun stuff though. The hunting
>part is fun too. Obviously
>most people who hunt Western
>Wyoming find the hunting to
>be the most enjoyable, because
>plenty of people show up
>for the hunt, but rarely
>do I see others scouting.
>So your opinion there might
>be shared with the minority.
>
>But, most people don't have bosses
>as wonderful as mine (ha
>ha) who lets me work
>from the mountain, so they
>may not have the time
>off to scout and hunt.
>
I suppose I have made my point and I should just end this. No doubt people have issues with time constraints. But I can't help but wonder how many that use your service are lacking scouting time or just worried they will not kill a B&C buck. To each there own I suppose.
 
Do you suppose any of the pictures of bucks that Founder posts have caused anyone to buy a preference point in WY? Or any of the other bucks that get posted on this site for that matter?

Maybe Founder should get a cut of those $?
 
What's the ethical difference between using founders service and going on a fully outfitted hunt where the outfitter used planes to do his scouting?

Do you really think that when an outfitter has the same client multiple years in a row he isn't showing him pics or telling him about some of the big bucks he saw scouting and taking him to the spot the outfitter thinks his client has the best chance of killing the buck from? I bet most of the animals killed on guided hunts are spotted by the guide.

So on one hand you have someone telling somebody where an animal is. On the other you have someone showing and spotting the animal for you.

Yea founder your service is definitely way more unethical. You need to start using planes and then holding your clients hands, spotting the animal for them, butchering, caping, and packing it for them so your service is as ethical as a fully guided hunt.

And back to the start of the thread. Of course an outfitter is going to push for his best interest. Also a lack of tags in what is considered a trophy unit/region helps outfitters. Lots of guys will go hunt a unit diy if it only takes a couple years to draw. But the more points it takes the higher percentage of hunters will use a guide because they will only have a few chances to hunt that unit/region. So with the point creep G already has and now less tags it will creep more and more. So I believe a higher and higher percentage of non res hunters will be looking to use a guide to maximize their opportunity to harvest a mature buck since it took so long to draw.
 
You whiners are hilarious. If you really cared about the deer herd, you would be pushing to limit the resident tags. Crying over, or shutting down, Founder's service isn't going to do $hit for the deer. How many bucks do you really think he helped kill last year. Now compare that to the number of bucks killed by the unlimited number of residents.
 
Outfitters are regulated by number of outfitters in an area, permitting processes, etc. if they are cheating by using airplanes, they should loose their license to guide!

Any knuckelhead with a smartphone can go find bucks, pull the coordinates off the metadata from the picture and start selling the coordinates!

Can you go out on public land a get firewood without a permit? No!

Can you cut down a Christmas tree on public land without a permit? No!

Can you ride your ATV on public ground without getting a ORV permit? No!
What if I have it licensed to drive it on the highway! No...Still need that permit!

Can you harvest game animals without getting a permit? No!

Can you catch fish without a permit? No!

Can you provide provide outfitting services with out a permit? No!

Can you bait bear on public ground without a permit? No!

Can I ride my snow machine anywhere I want to on public ground? You bet, right after you go get that permit!

Can I take my boat out on the lake? Once you get a permit...oh don't forget the permit to use the boat dock. Did you get you mussel free certificate?

Can I camp in the campground? Sure, if you get this permit!

Can I camp outside the campground? For sixteen days then you better get your butt off!

Can you sell the GPS coordinates for trophy sized animals on line? **** ya, no restrictions! That is BS! Time to draw a line folks, before people outside the hunting communities start drawing them for us.

Can you imagine the 30 second PETA commercial...showing pictures of a beautiful buck deer out minding its own business under a rocky outcrop. As the photo zooms out, it fades to a Craig's list add "Harvest this 180" muledeer...GPS coordinates available for only $500! The anti hunting groups will go ape sh!t over that! What an image representing our community! Should be 100% illegal and getting caught should be treated like poaching!

The comments made justifying this behavior/act make me feel that much stronger against it!
 
>What's the ethical difference between using
>founders service and going on
>a fully outfitted hunt where
>the outfitter used planes to
>do his scouting?
>
Nothing. They are both lame ways to boost your mountain cred.
 
The fact that you think we need a permit to do everything but fart in the woods makes the future look a little dimmer.
 
The point I was making about permits had nothing to do with my opinion of permits...it was simply stating the fact that we can't do any but fart in the woods and sell GPS coordinates to big game animals!
 
So should all the books and websites that "TELL" about great rock climbing crags, or biking trails, or good lakes to fish, or trails to hike, or rivers to raft, or even good units or areas within units to hunt deer or elk be shutdown or burned because they need a permit to share their personal knowledge of something they know?
Should they all have to be licensed outfitters or guides to share such information? Or is the line drawn at a certain specificity?
Should I need a permit to say that the Henry Mountains is a great place to find a huge deer? Or is the line drawn at the canyon name where one might find a huge deer? Or within 1000 feet of where I saw it 2 months earlier? Or within 5 feet?
What I provide is more specific information than what books, magazines and websites have provided for a long time, that I admit. And I respect opinions stating that it's too specific, but where should the line be drawn?
I might have a different opinion than some, but I'm curious where you would say the line should be drawn? If I write a book about hunting big bucks tomorrow, at what point in your opinion should I need a guides license to share what I know? Is it when I narrow things down to a state? Down to a unit? Down to canyon name? Or within 500 feet?
Just curious. It's good conversation and discussion. Entertaining.




>Outfitters are regulated by number of
>outfitters in an area, permitting
>processes, etc. if they are
>cheating by using airplanes, they
>should loose their license to
>guide!
>
>Any knuckelhead with a smartphone can
>go find bucks, pull the
>coordinates off the metadata from
>the picture and start selling
>the coordinates!
>
>Can you go out on public
>land a get firewood without
>a permit? No!
>
>Can you cut down a Christmas
>tree on public land without
>a permit? No!
>
>Can you ride your ATV on
>public ground without getting a
>ORV permit? No!
>What if I have it licensed
>to drive it on the
>highway! No...Still need that
>permit!
>
>Can you harvest game animals without
>getting a permit? No!
>
>
>Can you catch fish without a
>permit? No!
>
>Can you provide provide outfitting services
>with out a permit?
>No!
>
>Can you bait bear on public
>ground without a permit?
>No!
>
>Can I ride my snow machine
>anywhere I want to on
>public ground? You bet,
>right after you go get
>that permit!
>
>Can I take my boat out
>on the lake? Once
>you get a permit...oh don't
>forget the permit to use
>the boat dock. Did you
>get you mussel free certificate?
>
>
>Can I camp in the campground?
>Sure, if you get this
>permit!
>
>Can I camp outside the campground?
> For sixteen days then
>you better get your butt
>off!
>
>Can you sell the GPS coordinates
>for trophy sized animals on
>line? **** ya, no
>restrictions! That is BS!
> Time to draw a
>line folks, before people outside
>the hunting communities start drawing
>them for us.
>
>Can you imagine the 30 second
>PETA commercial...showing pictures of a
>beautiful buck deer out minding
>its own business under a
>rocky outcrop. As the photo
>zooms out, it fades to
>a Craig's list add "Harvest
>this 180" muledeer...GPS coordinates available
>for only $500! The
>anti hunting groups will go
>ape sh!t over that!
>What an image representing our
>community! Should be 100%
>illegal and getting caught should
>be treated like poaching!
>
>The comments made justifying this behavior/act
>make me feel that much
>stronger against it!


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
>Outfitters are regulated by number of
>outfitters in an area, permitting
>processes, etc. if they are
>cheating by using airplanes, they
>should loose their license to
>guide!
>
>Any knuckelhead with a smartphone can
>go find bucks, pull the
>coordinates off the metadata from
>the picture and start selling
>the coordinates!
>
>Can you go out on public
>land a get firewood without
>a permit? No!
>
>Can you cut down a Christmas
>tree on public land without
>a permit? No!
>
>Can you ride your ATV on
>public ground without getting a
>ORV permit? No!
>What if I have it licensed
>to drive it on the
>highway! No...Still need that
>permit!
>
>Can you harvest game animals without
>getting a permit? No!
>
>
>Can you catch fish without a
>permit? No!
>
>Can you provide provide outfitting services
>with out a permit?
>No!
>
>Can you bait bear on public
>ground without a permit?
>No!
>
>Can I ride my snow machine
>anywhere I want to on
>public ground? You bet,
>right after you go get
>that permit!
>
>Can I take my boat out
>on the lake? Once
>you get a permit...oh don't
>forget the permit to use
>the boat dock. Did you
>get you mussel free certificate?
>
>
>Can I camp in the campground?
>Sure, if you get this
>permit!
>
>Can I camp outside the campground?
> For sixteen days then
>you better get your butt
>off!
>
>Can you sell the GPS coordinates
>for trophy sized animals on
>line? **** ya, no
>restrictions! That is BS!
> Time to draw a
>line folks, before people outside
>the hunting communities start drawing
>them for us.
>
>Can you imagine the 30 second
>PETA commercial...showing pictures of a
>beautiful buck deer out minding
>its own business under a
>rocky outcrop. As the photo
>zooms out, it fades to
>a Craig's list add "Harvest
>this 180" muledeer...GPS coordinates available
>for only $500! The
>anti hunting groups will go
>ape sh!t over that!
>What an image representing our
>community! Should be 100%
>illegal and getting caught should
>be treated like poaching!
>
>The comments made justifying this behavior/act
>make me feel that much
>stronger against it!

But you can tell someone where a perfect tree is without a permit.

You can also tell someone where the best place to ride is without a permit.

You can tell them the best camp spot in a camp ground without a permit.

So why shouldn't someone be allowed to tell someone where an animal is without a permit?
 
So do you think there should be a "permitting" process for people like Founder offering his type service? Or do you think it should be an outright ban?

From what I'm hearing from the WY residents most want it banned, yet they are ok with other existing services because they are currently "permitted". Seems like a contradiction to me.
 
The comparisons you make are not even in the same ballpark as to what you are actually doing. You are getting PAID by individuals for gps coordinates to a specific deer. You are NOT providing this information for free, like the examples you provided. That, in my opinion is wrong. I feel you should be under the same guidelines and rules as an outfitter. I feel you should have to be licensed and pay taxes just like outfitters do.

If you were truely, as you say it, just providing information, then you would not accept payment for the information.

If your doing this to help other hunters, then how about you publish the gps coordinates for all of us to see, for FREE....I bet you won't. Don't care how you spin it, your pimping wildlife and scamming the state. Quite frankly, it's pretty sad that the owner of a website publicly admits participating in and condones this activity.

No one is questioning your love of deer hunting, commitment to scouting or skills. People, including myself are questioning your moral compas.
 
Many books, magazines and the like make money selling information of some sort. The reports I share with clients contain information, it's just more specific and detailed.

You are right on one point you made, I won't be sharing my most prized knowledge for free with you. Sorry, but it takes too much money, time, hard work and sweat to acquire. But you wouldn't want it anyway, then you'd have to question your moral compass with mine. ha ha

FYI - Not sure where all the "GPS Coordinate" stuff comes from, but I don't even use a GPS. I heard the politician spewing "GPS Coordinates" and now a couple people in this thread.

You may end up getting what you want ss13 and maybe a law will be passed not allowing the sharing of information unless one is a guide or outfitter. If so, so be it. I personally think there's some first amendment issues with that. The state does own the wildlife and the federal government owns the land, but I don't think they'll be able to make rules controlling what a person can say about wildlife they've seen or places they've visited in a National Forest. Whether it be for free, a cup of coffee or a zigzillion dollars. It'll be interesting to see. The impacts of a law controlling the sharing of information about wildlife isn't just a little thing.


>The comparisons you make are not
>even in the same ballpark
>as to what you are
>actually doing. You are
>getting PAID by individuals for
>gps coordinates to a specific
>deer. You are NOT
>providing this information for free,
>like the examples you provided.
> That, in my opinion
>is wrong. I feel
>you should be under the
>same guidelines and rules as
>an outfitter. I feel
>you should have to be
>licensed and pay taxes just
>like outfitters do.
>
> If you were truely, as
>you say it, just providing
>information, then you would not
>accept payment for the information.
>
>
>If your doing this to help
>other hunters, then how about
>you publish the gps coordinates
>for all of us to
>see, for FREE....I bet you
>won't. Don't care how
>you spin it, your pimping
>wildlife and scamming the state.
> Quite frankly, it's pretty
>sad that the owner of
>a website publicly admits participating
>in and condones this activity.
>
>
>No one is questioning your love
>of deer hunting, commitment to
>scouting or skills. People,
>including myself are questioning your
>moral compas.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-04-17 AT 04:08PM (MST)[p]>The comparisons you make are not
>even in the same ballpark
>as to what you are
>actually doing. You are
>getting PAID by individuals for
>gps coordinates to a specific
>deer. You are NOT
>providing this information for free,
>like the examples you provided.
> That, in my opinion
>is wrong. I feel
>you should be under the
>same guidelines and rules as
>an outfitter. I feel
>you should have to be
>licensed and pay taxes just
>like outfitters do.
>
> If you were truely, as
>you say it, just providing
>information, then you would not
>accept payment for the information.
>
>
>If your doing this to help
>other hunters, then how about
>you publish the gps coordinates
>for all of us to
>see, for FREE....I bet you
>won't. Don't care how
>you spin it, your pimping
>wildlife and scamming the state.
> Quite frankly, it's pretty
>sad that the owner of
>a website publicly admits participating
>in and condones this activity.
>
>
>No one is questioning your love
>of deer hunting, commitment to
>scouting or skills. People,
>including myself are questioning your
>moral compass.

Excellent post and your last sentence says it all! The OP can give out all the Ha Has he wants, but pimping wildlife is exactly what is being done for the almighty dollar and that sucks big time! I'd also like to know how he can give the exact location of a big buck to a person for the money he wants without using a GPS and giving coordinates. What other way is there?!
 
SS13 well said...the issue is pimping wildlife and total lack of respect for a living animals life. I was once supportive of treating it the same as outfitting, but the complete disconnect amongst people about want makes it wrong on so many levels has changed my opinion on the issue. I will be writing and talking with my state representatives to completely ban the practice in Wyoming.

In addition I would like to see it treated same as a poaching violation, loss of property involved in the act, hunting privileges taken away, fines...the works. I don't believe that will be a stretch as those violating the horn hunting season face similar consequences as well.

The other fact that I can not understand is how this issue can be justified in one persons mind, and he has the balls to post questions about better management techniques to get more trophy quality in the herd. The first step is to look in the mirror!
 
"total lack of respect for a living animals life" ... You do know that pretty much everyone on this website kills these animals, right?

"ban the practice" ... That ain't happening. No way are they going to ban guides and outfitters from scouting for game they'll be hunting. You better write a lot of letters. ha ha

I will admit, maybe there's a way a law can be passed to force me not to tell someone where I saw a deer unless I'm a guide. But that's why I'm working with an outfitter and try real hard to add value. I like scouting for deer, whether it's for a tag holder directly or for the outfitter who will then take his client hunting. Probably doesn't matter too much to me I suppose. I'll abide by the law. I may not think it's right, but that's my opinion, just like with the ethics of the scouting. I feel fine about my scouting (pimping as you call it).


>SS13 well said...the issue is pimping
>wildlife and total lack of
>respect for a living animals
>life. I was once supportive
>of treating it the same
>as outfitting, but the complete
>disconnect amongst people about want
>makes it wrong on so
>many levels has changed my
>opinion on the issue.
>I will be writing and
>talking with my state representatives
>to completely ban the practice
>in Wyoming.
>
>In addition I would like to
>see it treated same as
>a poaching violation, loss of
>property involved in the act,
>hunting privileges taken away, fines...the
>works. I don't believe that
>will be a stretch as
>those violating the horn hunting
>season face similar consequences as
>well.
>
>The other fact that I can
>not understand is how this
>issue can be justified in
>one persons mind, and he
>has the balls to post
>questions about better management techniques
>to get more trophy quality
>in the herd. The first
>step is to look in
>the mirror!


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-04-17 AT 06:18PM (MST)[p]This is some pretty funny stuff.

Those Wyoming resident that think you can ban the first amendment rights of an individual are pretty silly. Every buck that founder sends people to hunt has another three or four guys and gals after them and 10 more in the general area. Those buck don't get big by being stupid.

The state will not be able to limit commerce outside the state lines. Everything we do doesn't need to be taxed like some might suggest.

The outfitters cause more problems than this little locations service. A few years back the outfitter had 20 plus guys in one drainage first week of the hunt. They had killed zero deer in 1.5 days of hunting and were ready to start shooting 18 inch 3x4's. Those 20 plus hunters weren't going home empty. The guide came over to talk to use and wanted to know if we were going after the little 3x4. We said no have at it and off they went to try and get a shot. Those outfitters can pick a drainage clean in not time.

I personally don't mind seeing a few hunter on the mountain. I just hunt harder longer and with more dedication to make up for it.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-04-17 AT 08:02PM (MST)[p]"congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

Any idea what amendment his is roadless?
 
I think that there is a lot of unhappiness, because its harder to get great tags than it used to be and harder to find the bigger bucks than it used to be.

What is the rule of Darwinism: adapt or die. Hunt harder, hunter differently than you have, recognize that the majority of big game hunters really are more interested in the opportunity to hunt from year to year, than in getting big bone and they aren't going to cater to trophy hunters.

I live in G. Founder may be sharing information on bucks I want to hunt. I couldn't care less. Competition is a challenge. I like the challenge of hunting deer and I've gradually learned to hunt them where they are pressured. I don't know if I will ever shoot a Boone and Crockett buck, but that is fine. I'm just grateful to go hunting.

If you can't enjoy the country and the privilege of being out in it, then maybe you need to be thinking about fishing more, or collecting stamps, or something...
 
WOW!!
Some pretty crazy comments regarding about the services that Founder provided last year. These people are bashing him for simply giving out (selling) the location of where he "saw" a nice buck while scouting in the summer months. However, these same people have no problem with guides who accept money to not only scout for a deer ahead of the season (maybe even with drones/planes) but also take their hunter to that deer, glass for that deer for the hunter, take the hunter up to a point where he can make the shot, gut the deer, and pack the deer out. What about the guides that sit on a great buck or bull until their hunter gets to camp so they can take him to it to shoot it? These people bashing Founder have no problem with that??? It is amazing to me the double standard that these people have.

I bet if there was a permit required and Founder paid a tax or fee to the great state of WY or NFS, then it would be ok with all these people? As long as permits and taxes are paid, then it becomes ok???

What about the hunters who bring 6 or more family members and friends along on their hunt to help find a good buck? Is it any different if hunter Bob is off hunting on one mountain and cousin Eddie finds a huge buck on another mountain and then takes hunter Bob to the buck the next morning????? If hunter Bob paid for the gas and groceries to have cousin Eddie along, then isn't that the same pimping that these people are accusing Founder of doing??? These guys use the excuse "just sharing in the experience with family and friends"!!! If that makes them feel better about doing the exact same thing so they can sleep better at night doing it. I say BS - it is no different than what Founder is doing, he's just not hiding it behind some lame "family and friends experience" story.
 
sd Bugler...so you don't see a difference in running a for-profit business vs hunting with friends?

I live in Wyoming and have a pack string of horses. It's perfectly legal for me to pack in some friends to go elk/deer hunting on the national forest, but it is not legal for me to pack you in and charge you for it. Once it becomes a business, yes it is typically permitted/taxed. While I wouldn't personally give a nickel for all the outfitters in Wyoming, they are licensed to do business by the State and permitted by the USFS.
 
>I bet if there was a
>permit required and Founder paid
>a tax or fee to
>the great state of WY
>or NFS, then it would
>be ok with all these
>people? As long as
>permits and taxes are paid,
>then it becomes ok???
>
You would lose that bet. Regardless of how many permits or taxes are paid on this service I would still think it was a BS way for people to go about filling a tag.

More money will never make his service any less lame.
 
>
>What about the hunters who bring
>6 or more family members
>and friends along on their
>hunt to help find a
>good buck? Is it
>any different if hunter Bob
>is off hunting on one
>mountain and cousin Eddie finds
>a huge buck on another
>mountain and then takes hunter
>Bob to the buck the
>next morning?

If my cousin Eddie said "Give me $1900 and I will tell you where the deer I found lives" I would kick him square in the nuts.

>If hunter
>Bob paid for the gas
>and groceries to have cousin
>Eddie along, then isn't that
>the same pimping that these
>people are accusing Founder of
>doing???

If hunter Bob told cousin Eddie "I will pay for your gas a groceries to go find me a buck of suitable B&C score and give me all the pertinent details about this buck that I would have to gather on my own while hunting so that I don't have to do any of that stuff on my own" then yes it is the same as what Founder is selling.

Founder and now you keep trying to compare his service to a couple of guys sitting around drinking coffee or family hunting together. However, that is not what he is selling. He is selling a menu of bucks. You look at the menu and pick out the one you like the best. You then give him at least a $1000 and he tells you all the information you will need to know to kill this buck. All the information you would have had to gather on your own while hunting. He is not guarantying you will kill the buck but for what he is charging he darn well better be selling you something that he believes makes it highly likely you will get a shot. If not then what are you buying? Just the basic knowledge that a 190" buck exists in G? If that's the case then I can save you a lot of money. They do!
 
Mule
Why are you so against what founder provided but yet you are ok with guides and outfitters who basically are doing the exact same thing plus babysitting the hunter and actually taking the hunter to the deer?

There have been other scouting services come and go. Why are you so against founder's?

Now that he is going to be doing the same thing but sharing his information with an outfitter that suddenly makes it ok?

What about all the scouters in multiple states that provide the location of deer to outfitters and providing info for governor tag holders?

There is LOTS of the same thing happening all over the west but you are singling out founder because he is more open about it than others??
 
"sd Bugler...so you don't see a difference in running a for-profit business vs hunting with friends"

Nope. If someone else takes me to a deer whether I pay them or not it is the same thing. In my opinion you only become the shooter not the hunter.
 
"I live in Wyoming and have a pack string of horses. "

Maybe the hard core backpack hunters should bash you for using horses to get to the deer?

My point in all of this is that we each have our own opinion of what we want out of our hunts.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-17 AT 05:36PM (MST)[p]>"I live in Wyoming and have
>a pack string of horses.
>"
>
>Maybe the hard core backpack hunters
>should bash you for using
>horses to get to the
>deer?
>
>My point in all of this
>is that we each have
>our own opinion of what
>we want out of our
>hunts.


Your point is well taken and of which I completely disagree. A person that makes money off the wildlife like Founder is doing should be licensed just like an outfitter that actually takes the person on the hunt when he gives out specific information as to where and how to hunt a specific animal. He should also be paying taxes on that income since that's required under the law and the question as to whether he is or not hasn't even been raised.
 
Topgun just curious if when you booked a hunt with an outfitter did you ask him if he payed taxes on all the money he makes? What about the guide? I'm assuming you tipped your guide, camp cook, and packer. Tips are cash so super easy to not report on your taxes. Did you ask them if they reported them on their 1040 every year? If not then why are you talking about Founder paying/not paying taxes on what he made?

Compensation is compensation whether it's a tip, bonus, normal check etc. So why are you mentioning founder paying taxes on the money he makes scouting? Curious why it's even anybody else's business whether founder, you, myself, or anybody else pays taxes besides the IRS?

Now that founder is getting compensated from an outfitter is it fine that he gets payed to scout now? Even though he is doing the exact same thing except instead of selling info to different people he is selling it to a single person and that person is deciding what he wants to do with the info he is buying?

It is laughable that people will pay to get their hand held by an outfitter, yet paying for somebody to tell you where to hunt is the devil.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-06-17 AT 08:30PM (MST)[p]>Topgun just curious if when you
>booked a hunt with an
>outfitter did you ask him
>if he payed taxes on
>all the money he makes?
>What about the guide? I'm
>assuming you tipped your guide,
>camp cook, and packer. Tips
>are cash so super easy
>to not report on your
>taxes. Did you ask them
>if they reported them on
>their 1040 every year? If
>not then why are you
>talking about Founder paying/not paying
>taxes on what he made?

***Very simple answer to that and it's because he has no license or oversight doing what he's doing and I brought up the tax issue merely because if he's unlicensed it would be very simple not to declare any of that income as compared to a licensed person.

>Compensation is compensation whether it's a
>tip, bonus, normal check etc.
>So why are you mentioning
>founder paying taxes on the
>money he makes scouting? Curious
>why it's even anybody else's
>business whether founder, you, myself,
>or anybody else pays taxes
>besides the IRS?

***IMHO if I know a person is cheating by not paying taxes I wouldn't hesitate to notify the IRS since that is just that much more that the rest of the citizens have to make up if a person isn't paying their fair share.

>Now that founder is getting compensated
>from an outfitter is it
>fine that he gets payed
>to scout now? Even though
>he is doing the exact
>same thing except instead of
>selling info to different people
>he is selling it to
>a single person and that
>person is deciding what he
>wants to do with the
>info he is buying?

***It's fine with me since Sy is licensed and has to show his income and outgoing expenses for his business which should include any and all compensation to his employees of which Founder says he is now one of them.

>It is laughable that people will
>pay to get their hand
>held by an outfitter, yet
>paying for somebody to tell
>you where to hunt is
>the devil.

***Not laughable at all as long as that person follows whatever laws are on the books and declares his income if he is selling specific information as to where an animal is located and how best to hunt it.
 
I guess I'll open a whole new can of worms. I'm not sure if many are aware but it currently is possible for an out of state outfitter to guide their clients in Wyoming as long as they run their business through a Wyoming outfitter. As an example, there is a reknown trophy antelope outfitter in Nevada that guides his clients for trophy bucks in Wyoming. The Nevada outfitter advertises his Wyoming trophy antelope hunt and harvested bucks on his website. The NV outfitter harvests many of the highest scoring B&C antelope bucks harvested in Wyo every year.

Founder's business currently doesn't accompany and guide hunters in Wyoming. It seems like out of state outfitters would impact trophy buck/bull/ram quality more than Founder's self-guided business? Also, Founder isn't the only one with a self-guided business. Antler Quest in Colorado has a similar hunting service.
 
Some good information there!

From what I remember Founder saying last year when this issue started to get attention is that the legal line is drawn at point where you start to accompany the hunter. If you only provide information you dont need a license. If you plan to be present while the hunter is hunting, you need a license. Pretty cut and dry in terms of legality.


>I guess I'll open a whole
>new can of worms.
>I'm not sure if many
>are aware but it currently
>is possible for an out
>of state outfitter to guide
>their clients in Wyoming as
>long as they run their
>business through a Wyoming outfitter.
> As an example, there
>is a reknown trophy antelope
>outfitter in Nevada that guides
>his clients for trophy bucks
>in Wyoming. The Nevada
>outfitter advertises his Wyoming trophy
>antelope hunt and harvested bucks
>on his website. The
>NV outfitter harvests many of
>the highest scoring B&C antelope
>bucks harvested in Wyo every
>year.
>
>Founder's business currently doesn't accompany and
>guide hunters in Wyoming. It
>seems like out of state
>outfitters would impact trophy buck/bull/ram
>quality more than Founder's self-guided
>business? Also, Founder isn't
>the only one with a
>self-guided business. Antler Quest in
>Colorado has a similar hunting
>service.
 
Topgun. Where is the oversight to all the guides, packers, camp cooks, etc that get paid cash tips? You and I know they do not get reported. So why are you questioning one persons ethics but not hundreds of others that we know do not report their full income on their 1040's?

Again this entire thing is laughable. Because a person found a way to make money and it doesn't require a permit people are up in arms. Obviously our government is doing a great job brainwashing us into thinking more permits and rgulations are a good thing.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-17 AT 07:46AM (MST)[p]>Topgun. Where is the oversight to
>all the guides, packers, camp
>cooks, etc that get paid
>cash tips? You and I
>know they do not get
>reported. So why are you
>questioning one persons ethics but
>not hundreds of others that
>we know do not report
>their full income on their
>1040's?
>
>Again this entire thing is laughable.
>Because a person found a
>way to make money and
>it doesn't require a permit
>people are up in arms.
>Obviously our government is doing
>a great job brainwashing us
>into thinking more permits and
>rgulations are a good thing.
>

First off, I didn't say Founder isn't paying taxes on what he makes from his service and did not question his ethics on that. The ethics is involved in what he's actually doing and that's pimping game for money. Since I began hunting with my Dad when I was five back in 1952 the entire reason for hunting seems to have been forgotten and gone down the drain. No longer are many people looking at the outdoor experience, getting together with family and friends, etc. It's now an "industry" and that word is used more and more by those on TV shows and businesses that are just trying to make a buck regardless of what is involved. Now it's go out and shoot the biggest animal you can and how it's done doesn't seem to matter to many people. Secondly, I said it's just another thing that hasn't been discussed when a person isn't licensed like guides and outfitters. How do you know who reports what on their 1040s to say that you know nobody reports tips, etc.? Finally, the Government has nothing to do with what we're talking about and your analogy that we're brainwashed and blame it on the Government is what's laughable! Let's discuss the way hunting has become just another way to make a lot of money and/or many people trying to try to kill as big an animal with as little effort as possible. IMHO what Founder is doing is just the tip of the iceberg and is just a small part of what is ruining hunting from what I knew it as I was growing up. Again, IMHO this is just another symptom of how our society has changed and now it seems that many are just looking for the easy way out to get gratification by doing as little as possible regardless of whether it's ethical or not as we knew it while growing up decades ago. Things are changing at a rapid pace and for us older generations it isn't in a positive way!

As to the other "can of worms" that our other member opened, nobody has said what Founder is doing is illegal and it's also a fact that out of state residents have been able to legally guide or outfit in Wyoming for decades as long as they are doing it under a Wyoming licensed operation. I don't know why that was even brought up since it's legal and I for one see nothing wrong with that since if it wasn't allowed I could see a major court case involving restriction of interstate commerce. That is basically what Founder is doing when he's based in Utah since SY owns the biggest outfitting business in Wyoming and is properly licensed to do so in the state and Founder is working for him.
 
Nonresidents should worry about their own state, if you feel picked on because Wyoming treats its residents better than nonresidents, move to Wyoming, or dont. I get tired of hearing this crap coming from the nons about they need to cut resident tags, limit their season, etc...
 
LAST EDITED ON May-07-17 AT 10:59AM (MST)[p]Here is the way that I see it. It has nothing to do with taxes or a permit.

It really comes down to the idea of founder is not the person most thought he was or used to be. Before he was looked at by most as a very hard core hunter that did things the right way. He happened to find a way to make a living off of what he loved to do. The way he found to make his living was a benefit to many hunters and we all appreciated that! Now he is looked at in a much different light by many of those who used to love what he did. He is now thrown into the big pot of sellouts like the others.

This isn't to either say what he is doing is right or not as far as any laws or laws to come. To be honest I fight in my own head if it should be ok or not. On one hand the dirtiness of it makes my first reaction to be bann him! Then on the other the conservative side of me says why shouldn't he be able to do what he is doing.

To answer all the questions about what is the difference in what founder is doing apposed to the outfitters are. This is how I see that. Yes the outfitters have there hands far dirtier in this then does founder. As said above they do everything but pull the trigger in many cases. The difference in my mind is they are who we thought they are. Founder has become someone who we thought he wasn't.
 
Wow who really cares I don't for one. The founder could give information to every one on here but that doesn't guarantee your going to harvest a specific B&C buck does it?
You still have to seal the deal. Hell maybe one year when I decide to burn my 9pts for deer/elk maybe I will ask the founder for a good starting point for region G. Ha ha
 
>Wow who really cares I don't
>for one. The founder could
>give information to every one
>on here but that doesn't
>guarantee your going to harvest
>a specific B&C buck does
>it?
>You still have to seal the
>deal. Hell maybe one year
>when I decide to burn
>my 9pts for deer/elk maybe
>I will ask the founder
>for a good starting point
>for region G. Ha ha
>

A lot of people care or it wouldn't have been brought up in the Legislature or on this site! FYI this isn't something to laugh at such as your Ha ha ending your post!
 
Look TopGun I didn't mean to hurt your feelings but honestly get over it. This is the day and age we are in. Guides and the grundle of 'Spotting Helpers'for one hunter is so sad its laughable. I just think Brian ' founder ' is getting a bad wrap for nothing other than providing intel.IMO
 
>Look TopGun I didn't mean to
>hurt your feelings but honestly
>get over it. This is
>the day and age we
>are in. Guides and the
>grundle of 'Spotting Helpers'for one
>hunter is so sad its
>laughable. I just think Brian
>' founder ' is getting
>a bad wrap for nothing
>other than providing intel.IMO

It'll take more than your posts to hurt my feelings, LOL! It may be the day and age we're in now, but sure as hell doesn't mean it's right or has to be that way! When you start advertising asking for money for that "intel" we'll just have to agree to disagree because many of us feel it's just another sad trend in what hunting is becoming.
 
I don't see much concern for the Mule Deer here. How low do Deer numbers need to get before WY Residents realize there is to much pressure on Wyoming Range Mule Deer. Seems to me there are a lot of selfish folks that just want to hunt, and could care less about the Deer. The WY Range Mule Deer have been declining for 25 years and they are not going to make a come back. A resident draw is inevitable so lets start planning it out. And protect this Deer herd instead of this continued beat down. If all Residents feel they have a right to a Deer tag then they should hunt there own county or area/region they reside in. As for founders GPS business I find it lacking ethics in so many ways. Elk are doing good hunt Elk.
 
Where's yer data that sez there's too much pressure in the Wyoming Range. Almost 3000 hunters hunt 82 every year and I don't see anyone on here crying about too much pressure down there or any other general license area in this state. Its also interesting how the non residents think they have ownership with the deer in the Wyoming Range.

Let us know when the G&F starts talking about limited quota in G. I'm betting a boat load of us will be fighting it. I'd also say picking your own county or region is one of the dumber ideas I've read on here.

Regarding Jims' comments about out of state outfitters, isn't it still the case that you don't need any type of license to guide fisherman in Wyoming? Wonder if those that are concerned about Founder not paying his $189 in scouting taxes could give us an idea on how much money Wyoming is losing to out of state fishing operations and guiding services each year.
 
TopGun* I understand what you are getting at. Myself being from Utah originally it disgusts how much the mighty dollar runs everything in that state. I hope Wyoming doesn't ever turn into that. I am glad you can take a lil difference of opinion. Though
 
>Where's yer data that sez there's
>too much pressure in the
>Wyoming Range. Almost 3000
>hunters hunt 82 every year
>and I don't see anyone
>on here crying about too
>much pressure down there or
>any other general license area
>in this state. Its
>also interesting how the non
>residents think they have ownership
>with the deer in the
>Wyoming Range.
>

No one on here might be crying about 82, but the people who hunt it are. The word is they are going to try "area specific" general tags there for residents per the mule deer working group. If that can happen, so can LQ happen in G areas.
 
Saving bucks and serving the herd are not the same thing. Non residents are seeking trophies first, not hunting experience. Residents are seeking experience first, trophies after (speaking of generalities; there are of course exceptions). Many of us see that residents can continue to hunt this area annually. A continued healthy harvest of bucks may more be what is needed then allowing an increase of bucks to compete with does and fawns. Who really cares about the herd and who really just wants more opportunity for non residents and more trophy sized bucks. Who's really selfish?
 
LQ could happen., but it shouldn't happen. Should we
move toward being like Utah? I don't think so. I've lived and hunted in G for twenty years. I think the last few years have been excellent hunting. Are there less deer now, probably. Are there fewer monster bucks, probably. Is the hunting poor? There's no place I'd rather hunt deer. Read through this thread and many others. Concern for less opportunity to kill monster bucks is often couched under 'concerns for the herd.' The breeding does and fawns are the life blood of the herd. Until evidence indicates we have a shortage of bucks to breed the does, cutting buck tags is not going to help.

Frankly, I think when most trophy hunters consider G 'ruined' to hunting, is when pressure will decrease and we will see a rebound in world class bucks. The genetics aren't going anywhere. If the non residents hadn't taken to posting pics of the monster deer in this area, all over the internet, residents from all around Wyoming wouldn't have started flocking over here. Residents tend to be tight lipped about great areas. Cat's out of the bag now. I don't mind my neighbors to the east hunting over here. They live in Wyoming and make some of the sacrifices necessary to do so.
 
>Mule
>Why are you so against what
>founder provided but yet you
>are ok with guides and
>outfitters who basically are doing
>the exact same thing plus
>babysitting the hunter and actually
>taking the hunter to the
>deer?

Not sure where you got the idea that I am fine with Outfitters and Guides that do the exact same thing as Founder. I am not fine with it. However, not all outfitters do that. Any that do are not ones I would choose to hunt with and quite honestly I cant see why anyone else would want to either. I learned the hard way. I booked with an outfitter for sheep in AK and did not ask enough questions. Never even occurred to me to ask about spotting animals from the air. When I got there I found out that he not only scouted from the air before the hunter got there but he would fly during that hunt to see if he could find better animals. If he found them he would move the hunter to better animals. We I confronted him as to why he said "B&C score if very important to us." I told him I was having none of that and I ended up that "hunt" without so much as chambering a round. That outfitter even offered to take me next year on a no-charge hunt. I told him "no thanks" and went on about my day. When I looked to hunt sheep again, I knew which questions to ask. After talking to a lot of outfitters I was able to settle in on one that I believed shared my thoughts on what a hunt should be. I was not disappointed. Not all outfitters do the hunting for you.

>There have been other scouting services
>come and go. Why are
>you so against founder's?
>
Given that founder has a forum to provide my thoughts I think it would only make sense that I would be more vocal in my distain for the service he provides.


>Now that he is going to
>be doing the same thing
>but sharing his information with
>an outfitter that suddenly makes
>it ok?
>
Once again, where are you coming up with the idea that I am suddenly fine with what he is selling. I am not.

>What about all the scouters in
>multiple states that provide the
>location of deer to outfitters
>and providing info for governor
>tag holders?
>
I think that is just as lame as what founder does. Almost worse, because so many of the Governors tag buyers try to justify what they are doing by saying they are raising money for wildlife. When I reality they are simply trying to cover for the fact that they cant bear the thought of not shooting the biggest critter possible with the least amount of effort possible.

>There is LOTS of the same
>thing happening all over the
>west but you are singling
>out founder because he is
>more open about it than
>others??

Once again, he has a Forum. Makes it easier to voice my distain. Also, I am surprised that he does it. I thought he had more respect for the hunt than to cheapen it by selling B&C score and providing an instruction manual to anyone with $1500. Also, its the area I hunt and love to hunt in. I know how great of a hunt it can be. I know how rewarding and satisfying it can be to actually hunt the animals that live in Western Wyoming, whether you kill one of not. It pisses me off to see it cheapened like this. We see it happen all over the West but now it is happening in my backyard.

If you have any other questions please feel free to ask me directly. You will get a much better answer than telling me what I am and am not fine with.
 
I wonder if the tables were turned a bit?

If someone from Wyoming (or anywhere) dreamed about fishing for big Steelhead on the Smith River in northern California. (The State record came off the Smith, 27 lbs.)

It just so happens that I live close by and spend a ton of time up there. I know the river very well and where all the good runs are.

For a fee, I could tell you where these runs are and what back roads to take to get to them. I'll even send you a map. No guarantee you'll catch fish, of course. It's just that you'll be way ahead of the game if you're not familiar with the area. Would you do it? Would I be pimping out the wildlife? :)

I guess if some locals found out about it and ran into some Utards fishing "their spot" they might be talking to the Fish & Wildlife to get it stopped. haha!
 
I am a long time observer but I don't comment very often. I have hunted mule deer all over Utah , Colorado , Wyoming, And I have Hunted Region G several times. One thing I know for certain is that there is No Way that any state can continue to manage a deer herd the same way that they have in the past, if they want to keep a good herd. Therefor the days of everybody hunting every year are gone. So I think Residents in Wyoming that think are not having an impact on the herd are fooling themselves. Every hunter on the mountain is more serious now then they were 10 years ago( Guns, optics, gear ect). And every new hunter that is coming into the system doesn't know any thing but to be a high tech hunter. So there is only one thing to do . Restrict the hunter and take all precautions that we have to to protect the deer, weather he is a Resident or a Non resident. Otherwise there will not be any deer to hunt. I have first hand experience with this, I am from Utah and I've seen what has happened to our herd over the years because of bad management.
 
This is a good point above. I think it's funny how some Wyoming residents think non residents don't know anything about game management. Many of us live/ hunt in states where our herds have been ruined by the DNR's poor management practices. In Wisconsin for example, the DNR handed out free doe tags for years on end and us, as residents filled them. After a few years our deer herd suffered big time. We are still recovering in many areas of the state, specifically northern Wisconsin ( hint hint, harsh winters and wolves). This has happened in several other Midwest states and places like Utah...

When we see something similar happening in a different state (Wyoming) we care about, we voice our opinion about what is happening. It has nothing to do with being selfish. Yeah, it's your right to ignore our input on the topic, but it doesn't make you right. The Wyoming range deer herd is heading down a dangerous path....
 
While I'm at it, I'll post my thoughts on why I think Founder is scouting for a guide this year instead of "selling" packages himself.

I would be willing to bet it is much easier getting paid by a sole company, than brokering deals with several individuals. It also keeps the public heat and scrutiny off of him (except in this specific thread).

Here's the big one: It almost guarantees Founder an endless list of people with max, or near max points to point share with. With point creep setting in, this is the most likely reason found is now working with an outfitter......

Just my opinion....
 
"""""I think that's the whole issue, you are selling the information.

We obviously won't ever agree on this Brian, hunting means different things to different people; world turning round. I wouldn't become a consultant to an outfitter either and show them all or most of my hunting spots.

See, it's not about money to me."""""

Why not stop the outfitters from screw over the NR with that wilderness law. all the guys are talking about what Brian is doing, HOW about what the outfitters are doing to NR hunters oh oh wait they are cash paying hunters for the welfare of outfitters.BS

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
LAST EDITED ON May-08-17 AT 03:13PM (MST)[p]>Why not stop the outfitters from
>screw over the NR with
>that wilderness law. all the
>guys are talking about what
>Brian is doing, HOW about
>what the outfitters are doing
>to NR hunters oh oh
>wait they are cash paying
>hunters for the welfare of
>outfitters.BS

Because the wilderness law is just as beneficial for us residents that DIY hunt as it is for outfitters. I know I can go somewhere without a bunch of non-residents unlike the greys river which is loaded with non-res plates all summer and fall. So good luck getting residents to want to change that law for ya which has been around for over 40 years and is nothing new.
 
>This is a good point above.
> I think it's funny
>how some Wyoming residents think
>non residents don't know anything
>about game management. Many
>of us live/ hunt in
>states where our herds have
>been ruined by the DNR's
>poor management practices. In
>Wisconsin for example, the DNR
>handed out free doe tags
>for years on end and
>us, as residents filled them.
> After a few years
>our deer herd suffered big
>time. We are still
>recovering in many areas of
>the state, specifically northern Wisconsin
>( hint hint, harsh winters
>and wolves). This has
>happened in several other Midwest
>states and places like Utah...
>
>
>When we see something similar happening
>in a different state (Wyoming)
>we care about, we voice
>our opinion about what is
>happening. It has nothing
>to do with being selfish.
> Yeah, it's your right
>to ignore our input on
>the topic, but it doesn't
>make you right. The
>Wyoming range deer herd is
>heading down a dangerous path....
>

Please explain why less region tags, shortened seasons and 3 point restrictions are putting the Wyoming mule deer herd "down a dangerous path". Be specific with your answer because we are not talking about killing does here.

Input is gladly accepted when it makes sense and isn't just hysteria.
 
Wyoming is headed in right direction. Some just think more could of been done. Imo...I'd recommend closing those areas all together until more info is available. Then make the call of how many tags to cut or the direction needed next year. Then again maybe I am receiving fake news about the winter kill? Sounds bad to me!
 
Im curious, if Wyoming allowed unlimited nonresident tags, how many of the concerned nonresidents would go hunt G every year?
 
LAST EDITED ON May-08-17 AT 07:36PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON May-08-17 AT 07:25?PM (MST)

Muleykiller nailed it on #154.

MMwb finally admits that residents are flocking to G. Placing the blame on nonresidents using the web.....whatever.

MMwb also says until there's a shortage of bucks to breed the does, there shouldn't be an issue. Others claim quality is still decent.

Your state is allowing youth to harvest does. Every doe killed is also killing possible generations of deer that would have been born. If you want more deer, quit killing the does! Also add to the mayhem some severe winter weather conditions and huge deer populations of deer dying along with the state not regulating the number of residents hunting those specific areas, you can see why there's a downward trend of deer. Greed and selfishness would be the only reason you couldn't see the writing on the wall. Ask anyone that has hunted G for the past decades or lives in the area with how it is now versus how it was.
I think the situation in SW Wyoming is a good thing and residents are blessed to have what you have. But you need to face reality that it could and should be a lot better.
Go ahead and blame nonresidents and their internet bombshells. Blame the outfitters or founder or whoever you want .
But don't think that WYGF and residents haven't played a hand in this either.
I believe G has the potential to be the best area to hunt deer in North America if it was managed better. I said it....better than the Henry mtns, Arizona strip, etc....

I'm not saying limit the hunters to those kind of numbers but all I see is take, take and give me!
A lot of hypocrites on this site who claim to care but will always put themselves first. It's a sad deal.









"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
LAST EDITED ON May-08-17 AT 07:46PM (MST)[p]I hunted it last fall. 600$ tag and no deer harvested. Not everyone is about themselves and only the trophy. I had opportunities to harvest. Even a 180 inch deer opening morning. But I watched a resident drop him through my riflescope because I debated it.
Until residents are limited, I won't be back to hunt deer. Does that answer your question gasman?






"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
As I stated in the "More Mule Deer" thread in the mule deer forum, I agree: eliminate all antlerless deer hunts, as well as rut hunts that may interfere with the breeding of does.

Re:"MMwb also says until there's a shortage of bucks to breed the does, there shouldn't be an issue. Others claim quality is still decent."

Let's clarify, I am saying killing bucks shouldn't be an issue with herd health. The bucks compete with the does/fawns on the winter grounds. As long as we leave enough bucks to breed the does, then by killing the surplus, we increase the odds for the herd. This doesn't support everyone's desires to have more bucks, or bigger bucks, but it is valid in terms of taking care of the does/fawns.

Quality is pretty subjective. I suppose if an area doesn't suit your needs, you should look for an area that does. The number of residents, and non residents seeking to, hunt the area indicates there must be some quality. Are the numbers of monster bucks down, relative to the past? Absolutely, significantly so. Not everyone needs a trophy to have a great hunt. But then are we seeking to increase trophy bucks or the overall health of the whole herd?

Convince me that having more bucks to compete with the does and fawns for limited resources helps the herd.
 
I understand what your saying mmwb.
Have you thought that the opposite could be what's needed? You mention a surplus. I don't think there is a surplus. Like I posted before, killing does, rough winter, unlimited and unregulated number of hunters hitting the hills in a specific area is a recipe for disaster. We agree about the doe killings, some agree of even a possible area shutdown for the hunting season, but I really haven't read many residents agreeing they need to be limited and regulated to specific areas.

In fact, some have claimed the thought or idea of hunting their own county or choosing a region as preposterous.






"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
I have a few questions here....

1) How many does everyone think or more so know are being killed by our youth? I have never seen one taken out of G in 8 years, but of course I wouldn't expect to see any taken where I am hunting. I really wonder how many are taken, and how in turn if a few are taken that may just be could have "hooked" a potential hunter for years to come. I want to be perfectly clear here that I do not encourage killing of the does but I do just wonder if it is happening all that much and if it is as infrequent as I think it might be is the net gain worth it?

2) Billybob you said us in SW Wyoming have it good... Did you mean NW wyo. there or are we talking about 2 different things here?

3) How many of these concerned people even really know what they are speaking about? What I mean by this is how many of you have even ever stepped foot in G? How many of you have ever hunted there more than once? How many of you have ever spent numerous scouting trips in the area during even 1 summer and seen truly rich with bucks and also nice bucks the are has to offer, or did you make one trip up the mountain see say 10 bucks then think all this BS about everything you heard about G must have been overhyped or obviously all the deer must have been killed off...

I just really don't get it! Most if not all of you have at the very least "scouted" on this forum by watching all of founders videos. You all know he will usually average seeing about 100 bucks per trip. Say he scouts 6 times in a summer that is over say 600 bucks in just the little sliver of G he has covered. I can vouch for those numbers as I see the same type of numbers. Now add to that the views you are looking at the whole time, what is not to love? Now say out of those 600 bucks about 20 go over 170", 10 of those at or over 180", 4 of those over 190", and 1 or 2 of them at or over 200"... HAHA on a side note while watching his podcasts while he is describing how the big bucks really are not around like everyone says they are... I scratch my head and just really think man he must really be used to seeing monster deer. Of course I will admit I have never been on antelope island.

Now all this being said, do I think things could be managed a little better? Of course I do, especially after this winter. But please all of you that think it is so bad and managed so poorly PLEASE tell me of the better examples you all know of then what I described above so I can try to start putting in there and then when I can never draw start complaining everywhere about how such and such state sucks cuz they won't give me a tag!
 
1) In region G in 2016, 69 does and 7 fawns were reported taken. If the only way a kid is going to get hooked on hunting is by shooting a doe then I am not sure that kid will be a lifer anyway. Shoot a doe antelope or a cow elk, or a doe whitey, or a cottontail or jackrabbit or grouse or a coyote, you get the point. Lots of opportunity to satisfy the blood lust of a younger hunter without working over a doe MD.
 
>1) In region G in 2016,
>69 does and 7 fawns
>were reported taken. If the
>only way a kid is
>going to get hooked on
>hunting is by shooting a
>doe then I am not
>sure that kid will be
>a lifer anyway. Shoot
>a doe antelope or a
>cow elk, or a doe
>whitey, or a cottontail or
>jackrabbit or grouse or a
>coyote, you get the point.
> Lots of opportunity to
>satisfy the blood lust of
>a younger hunter without working
>over a doe MD.

Totally agree Steve, this is the kind of regulation you get when politicians influence game management. Our mule deer group lobbied heavily to remove "any" deer from special archery seasons and were successful. G&F said removing youth option on does would be tough.
 
By surplus, understand, I'm not saying we have too many bucks for what most us want. The question simply is, is what we want necessarily best for the herd. I mean surplus only in relation to the number of bucks we need to ensure a high rate of successful breeding of does. I really don't know myself, and I'm not sure anyone does. I'm just not convinced, decreased buck harvest at this point is going to help the herd. I see more bucks when I hunt G, than I do does. Now part of that is that I don't hunt areas I know are areas where the does and fawns are more likely to congregate, because mature bucks are less likely to be in those areas. As I said, if someone has some real evidence that increasing bucks will help the herd, I'll advocate for change to that effect: closing the season for a year or two, region or area specific limits, etc...

Limited quota scares me a bit. I am an opportunist, but the fact is, states with LQ hunting, still are having the same problems with their deer herds. LQ gives better trophies, but I don't see that it helps the herds.
 
I tend to agree with both of you about this. Here is all I am saying about it though. People get on here and call for the end of the doe slaughter. Well using those numbers 1.25% of hunters that hunted G last year killed a doe and 2.64% of the deer killed were does.

So as I am sure in some peoples eyes those number equate to a "slaughter" but maybe not in many others.

In my mind I can't make those numbers have much at all of a impact on the Wyoming range deer heard.

I am all for not having it in the regs., but if we are talking about how to help the population I would say there are much bigger fish to fry...

I will say this. I am guilty of being right next to my son while he has shot a doe in 2 separate years. Both of those years he could have taken bucks and many of them were in the 160" or above range but they just were not the bucks we were after. Do I feel bad that he shot 2 does, yes somewhat. The smile on his face and enjoyment he got out of both of those hunts means more to me though. Maybe that makes me a bad person and against the deer heard as a whole in some peoples eyes, but his smile overrides that too...
 
There is a misconception among too many people that there exists unregulated resident hunting for deer in regions G&H. While the G&F does not put a limit on the number of resident hunters, they do have a relatively accurate knowledge of how many resident hunters hunt those regions. They also have good historical knowledge of resident hunter pressure in these regions from prior years. When they look at that history along with the population surveys they conduct they get a good idea of the regions ability to handle the impact of unlimited resident hunting. The region has shown that the deer population can grow even with the unlimited resident tags. The population was near its peak around 1991 of around 58,000 animals. I has never gotten back to this level but was close in 2000 of around 48000. In 2005 the numbers reached a low of 27,000. Since then the herd has shown overall growth up to the high 30,000's. I don't have 2015 or 16's numbers but I think most that hunted those years would agree that numbers increased over 2014. All this time the number of hunters in these regions has grown. Close to doubled. But the herd grew. The percentage of bucks harvested as a percentage of total population remains relatively constant. It trends at 5%. It spikes in years of high population, 9%, then drops after high winter kill, 4%. It is not too hard to determine from this that the region can handle the current hunter pressure, it has been higher in the past, and still grow the herd. This information is more than enough to show the G&F that capping resident hunters is not needed to grow the herd. Therefore the regulation can stand at unlimited resident tags. There is nothing to suggest that there will be an unprecedented spike in the number of resident hunters in G&H that would decimate the herd.

I think the measures that have been taken for the up coming season are perfectly reasonable. They are not an over-reaction to an unknown. If the data starts to point to lack of herd growth during periods of easy winters then capping resident hunters may be the answer. But that is not what the data shows. The only reason to do it now would be to increase the percentage of B&C bucks and reduce crowding. But most in Wyoming like the trophy quality available, and are happy to trade the hunter population for the ability to hunt the region every year.
 
>I tend to agree with both
>of you about this.
>Here is all I am
>saying about it though.
>People get on here and
>call for the end of
>the doe slaughter. Well
>using those numbers 1.25% of
>hunters that hunted G last
>year killed a doe and
>2.64% of the deer killed
>were does.
>
>So as I am sure in
>some peoples eyes those number
>equate to a "slaughter" but
>maybe not in many others.
>
>
>In my mind I can't make
>those numbers have much at
>all of a impact on
>the Wyoming range deer heard.
>
>
>I am all for not having
>it in the regs., but
>if we are talking about
>how to help the population
>I would say there are
>much bigger fish to fry...
>
>
>I will say this. I
>am guilty of being right
>next to my son while
>he has shot a doe
>in 2 separate years.
>Both of those years he
>could have taken bucks and
>many of them were in
>the 160" or above range
>but they just were not
>the bucks we were after.
> Do I feel bad
>that he shot 2 does,
>yes somewhat. The smile
>on his face and enjoyment
>he got out of both
>of those hunts means more
>to me though. Maybe
>that makes me a bad
>person and against the deer
>heard as a whole in
>some peoples eyes, but his
>smile overrides that too...

Doesn't make you or your son bad people. No need to feel bad about killing a doe. Slaughter was probably too harsh a word. I cant wait to see my son take his first big game animal. I suspect that will be a cow elk. Only 1 year away. I also think there are bigger fish to fry than a few does getting shot by kids. However, it does not help. Couple that with how many other opportunities exist to help a kid love the outdoors, I just think it is unnecessary to encourage them to shoot a doe mule deer in Western Wyo. I also think it makes for a good learning opportunity for the kid to help them understand our role as hunters in conservation. But you are correct there are bigger ways to help the herd than a few kids letting a doe walk.
 
70 dead does= 210 dead deer( that's just one year of killing does according to mulecreek's stats). Add that to 86% fawn loss this winter in the Wyoming Range herd. Don't forget 35% adult doe loss on top of that. And the resulting fawn loss on this year's fawns due to poor body condition of remaining does. I've heard it and read it many times. It takes 6 bucks to successfully breed 100 does. Let's wait til then to do anything!! As long as everyone still gets to hunt! What about old guys? Shouldn't we be able to kill a doe too??

Yeah...let's keep killing does. Makes perfect sense.

Reducing NR permits by 200 is a joke compared to those stats.
 
Nontypical I am not sure if your post is directed at me, but I feel it might be so I will respond...

I will say this once again and be perfectly clear about it. I would like to see the doe hunt for our youth taken out of the regs. That would not hurt my feelings even one bit. Although I have been with Kade when he has shot 2 does had that not been with in the law, that would have been fine and I almost guarantee he would have killed 2 small buck those years, or had I thought what he was doing was going to have a big impact on the heard we would have taken 2 bucks instead.

I just happen to believe (and I realize I am for sure in the minority here) that the game and fish have done a good job managing the deer heard for the past at least 10 years. I don't believe this for any other reason but for what my own 2 eyes have told me over that time in very close to 1,000 hours in the field. In the area in question I have seen very little change in the heard in those years over all. The only significant change that I have seen is finding as many say 175" deer per year...

All that being said this winter was and is a special case and should have been treated as such. Some steps were made in the right direction but not near enough imo. I am on record as stating I wanted a 100% close of G and H for this year at least and even next would have been fine with me!

As far as the youth vs senior debate, well we just have to agree to disagree on that one as we just do not see eye to eye on that one as we have talked about that issue before. HA hell I think I should pay pioneer prices for tags too!!! haha not really just had to through that in there.
 
Not directed at you Tony. Just venting.

I agree with you on most points.

Except for the separate senior draw, of course. ;)
 
So way isn't the resident tags being cut to the bone, If the deer herd is such bad shape. If you all really care about the amount of bucks that are taken all the residents would be the first in line to cut it back instead I see me first, me first deal with the residents not wanting their tags cut.
You could take all the NR tags, JUST make sure you start with ALL the one's the outfitters are holding first, see how many resident fill up outfitters dance card.
It can only work if the cut is deep and hunter wide NR Res both have to give it up.IMO

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
There has been a lot of bashing residents on the general tag issue...if you read most resident responses you will see the majority that posted support measures that better spread out pressure or limit pressure. That said, the seasons are set and there is little that will change this year from a regulatory standpoint. However, if you visit with most residents that live in region G&H you hear these type of comments...."not getting a deer tag this year" or "going to try some limited entry permit this year" or " I'm going to head up to NE Wyo and try whitetail hunting " or "the fishing is best in the fall".

Most residents are avoiding the whitetail season around Big Piney though....to hard to tell the difference on those giants!. Just kidding!

The other misconception that I think is difficult to put in perspective for non-residents is the population density in western Wyoming. West of the continental divide there are only around 100k people. That's a small fraction of the population in north eastern Utah.

I typically hunt in region G every year. I will see some hunters, but not many where I go. In the middle of the work week, it's not uncommon for me have the ridges to myself. I can go a couple days without hearing a shot fired. I just don't see the pressure where I hunt.

I hunt the same general area for elk as well. That is when the number of residents swarm the area.

I stick to my comfort zone pretty tight, so I can't say what other parts of the region are like, but my little snap shot of reality wouldn't indicate the general resident deer tags presents much threat. But it was a bad winter, so my deer hunting sw Wyoming this year will be in a limited entry tag somewhere, or a fishing pole at the gorge or maybe a whitetail adventure.

I do wish the G&F would have done the point restriction differently though. I would be for one side must have three points, no more, no less. That might help weed out some genetics. It would be a good year to do that.
 
I almost made it through half this scuttle while on the shitter. I think instead of letting my legs fall asleep reading this I'm goin shed hunting. Let the scuttle continue.....




Sit tall in the saddle, hold your head up high, keep your eyes fixed to where the trail meets the sky...
 
You keep bringing up the 82 issue but there is nothing in the regs about making residents choose in 82. It would be out by now. I think that idea may have gone bye bye.
 

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