Bit of a kick in the butt by Robb Wiley

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Founder Since 1999
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Did anyone else watch the Wyoming Commission meeting on Youtube? (below)
A number of groups and the game and fish and public comment all seemed to want tag cuts in region G to be changed from the original suggestion of 200 down to 100. I think even most of the commission was thinking of changing it to 100. Then, Robb Wiley gets up there and recommends 200 tags be cut. Strongly encourages it. I was shocked! An outfitter asking for less non-resident (client) tags?!?!? What?!?! Obviously he's booked up for this year and probably for a few years in the future with high point holders. Or he won the lottery and doesn't need money. Or maybe he's just willing to take a hit business wise because he truly believes those 200 tags will make a big difference. Who knows......??? My guess is his business isn't affected because he's booked up and obviously doesn't care about the other outfitters.

I just thought that was interesting. Crazy really. I don't think the other outfitters can be too happy, nor many of us non-residents. Resident hunters might be patting him on the back.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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Brian

I give Wiley credit for what he did. He is obviously concerned about that deer herd. He knows he cannot do anything about the resident general area and realizes that another 100 less tags would save 60-70 bucks. Doesn't seem like much to some, who care only about their own opportunity to hunt, but it is something.

And don't go selling residents short on self regulating. I know some who don't even plan to go to G this year over the winter kill. I also know many who will hunt and only take a "special" buck or go home without. That is a selling point for statewide general for residents. If that ever changes, more deer will likely be killed in specific regions, like G & H, than before.

Jeff
 
I didnt watch it since I dont have time at the moment, but did he say WHY he strongly encourages the 200 tag reduction for NRs?


Here's a theory for you Brian - yeah he's booked up for years, and there are plenty of NRs that have enough points to draw Region G for a while and support him. But what do you think he thinks of your side business, aka scouting service? Perhaps he's trying to make it more difficult for you to get a tag in region G and hope you close up shop? You potentially take some clients away from him and other outfitters in the region. Plus you and your clients are after the same big bucks that roam those mountains. You are competition for him.
 
ALL the outfitters are against Brian's scouting service and Wiley doesn't need nonresidents to be booked up. There are also residents that aren't capable of doing it on their own...
 
It's very perplexing why he'd do that. I don't know. Certainly it has nothing to do with me, I don't believe. Of course he probably doesn't want me or anyone else I help hunting those biggest bucks, but who does. I don't want him hunting them either. ha ha ha

No, I don't know what it is. Maybe jm77 is right. It's just a mighty kick in the butt to all the other outfitters who need non-resident hunters to pay the bills. And to us non-resident hunters.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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It could be he is looking at the future in a different manner, not that he is booked up for several years, but trying to preserve the area to secure future quality hunts.

What happens if the next winter is a bad one or the one after that? How many years can a area take a mother nature hit then throw over harvesting into the mix because tags weren't cut?
 
If I remember correctly from his comments during the meeting, Robb mentioned your service, Founder, as one of the many issues affecting the buck population in G & H.

I have spoken to Robb a few times, nothing formal, and from that and what I heard him say during his comments makes me take him at his word. He is concerned about the deer herd in the Wyoming Range and he thinks this will help. I also think that even with the 200 tag reduction he is confident that he will stay booked. I actually think it has the possibility of helping him. How many of those 200 hunters were going to book with Robb? How many of those 200 hunters were going to be hunting the same area DIY that Robb guides? I am guessing that the second answer is bigger than the first.
 
I noticed he mentioned my scouting too. I didn't hear him mention scouting from the air though. He must not know that happens. ha ha
I've spoken to Robb a few times over the years and he seems ok to me. I'm no fan of scouting from the air, but that's just my opinion.
I was just simply surprised that he supported the tag cut. All's good. Of course I want the best chance of getting a tag, and more tags available helps. Like everyone else, I just want to hunt.
The extra 100 tags cut will save a few bucks, unless an extra 500 residents horde to that area.

BTW - if my consulting last year affected the herd enough to even mention, then that herd is in REAL trouble.

Brian Latturner
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I don't agree with Wiley much.. but I respect him for his actions as of late. He has told all currently booked clients they can push there hunt back from this year if they want, told them all how bad this winter is etc... also I just received word that along with the 200 tag cuts that is official, they are also imposing a 3 point restriction in G and H. Which is great to hear IMO, it hasn't been published yet, but that's what we just heard from a source
 
Last I checked his website, he's booked clear through 2021, and even has a wait list going. I remember reading that he was offering his clients booked for this year (2017) a refund or to put their hunts off until some year in the future. So I doubt cutting 200 tags will affect his business when some of the guys who are booked will bail, and he'll still fill in the spots with the waitlist guys. I guess he's just trying to paint the picture of reality.

That said, this speaks volumes of the current situation of the deer in that area. Usually outfitters downplay winter kills and stay upbeat and positive to prevent scaring off clients.
 
Straight from his website:

"This 2017 winter has been extremely challenging for our deer. Snowfall is 170-200% of normal. To make matters worse, we had two layers of ice that were in that snowpack and they kept the ridges from blowing open. Also, we received extreme temperatures down to -50? F. On one 24 hour period it went from -40 to +40? above and rained 2 1/2 inches. Needless to say, the winter has tapped out the fat reserves on our deer. We are going to lose this year's fawn crop; they are dropping like flies. We've lost a lot of older deer as well. Winter is not yet over, but we are having some March warm ups right now and the winter grounds are melting fast. We are going to see antler growth being impacted on the deer that survive this year and potentially could lose more deer, depending on the weather next month. If you are booked with us this year and have interest in moving out to a future year, give us a call so that we can discuss your options with you. There are always good deer that survive the winter, though the numbers are less. We took Magnum the fall immediately after the last hard winter, but as we all know, Magnum was an anomaly."
 
I can't wait to get up there and have a look at the winter range and winter kill up around La Barge and Big Piney. I hear the talk but I've got to see for myself.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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Did Robb happen to mention his own outfitting business as one of the many issues affecting the buck population too???

I'm glad to hear he's concerned about the mule deer population. Also gald to hear he's ok delaying hunts for clients. Sounds like he has a long term interest in the herd health. We and all hunters should be concerned, especially with the data that shows the tremendous decline in herds throughout the west in recent time. Lots of issues affecting these deer.

But you cant say NR scouting services are potentially affecting the bucks without also mentioning WY outfitters. Founder is drop in the bucket. Founder, how many buck have you taken in WY? How many of your clients have taken bucks? How many of the folks that shared points with you have taken bucks? Its a very tiny percentage of all the bucks taken in G and H. I doubt there are many other NRs doing this type of service - its just not possible for most NRs.

Now how many bucks has Robb's clients taken? I bet its orders of magnitude greater than Founder's number.

>If I remember correctly from his
>comments during the meeting, Robb
>mentioned your service, Founder, as
>one of the many issues
>affecting the buck population in
>G & H.
>
>I have spoken to Robb a
>few times, nothing formal, and
>from that and what I
>heard him say during his
>comments makes me take him
>at his word. He
>is concerned about the deer
>herd in the Wyoming Range
>and he thinks this will
>help. I also think
>that even with the 200
>tag reduction he is confident
>that he will stay booked.
> I actually think it
>has the possibility of helping
>him. How many of
>those 200 hunters were going
>to book with Robb?
>How many of those 200
>hunters were going to be
>hunting the same area DIY
>that Robb guides? I
>am guessing that the second
>answer is bigger than the
>first.
 
Criticize Mr. Wiley or not, all those oufitters who spoke at that meeting had no objection to the tag cut. All of them wanted to err on the side of caution and have fewer tags available. When I watched it, Mr. Wiley seemed to have some pull with the commissioners and even introduced the resident pick-a-region topic to the commission which was not discussed by the G&F managers. The commission made all general areas in G & H close on Oct. 6th. Instead of having only a proposed 18 days to hunt 144, 143, 145, etc. now the outfitters get 21 days. That's 4, 5 day hunt cycles they can offer instead of 3 that they would have got with a proposed closure of Oct. 3. I think that may have been the give-take behind the door scenes. With Mr. Wiley's prestige he has garnered, I bet he can fill 4, 5 day hunt cycles easily even on a year like this. Area 135 was used as the springboard to getting the same closing date in all general areas in G & H. The "hunter shift" was the hot button topic. When it came down to it, it didn't matter about the winter affects on the deer that determined the seasons for all areas, but what that closing date of Area 135 was going to be. We only loose 1 day of the season, but will have a 3 point antler restriction in place. As a resident, I'm shaking my head a little. I was for the length of season cuts. It would have really let the residents know, hey, we've had a bad winter, seasons are shorter. So, I'm hoping the 27-45% reduction in resident hunters comes true after the hard winter and I'll take full advantage of all the time they want to give me.
 
My wife went to a swim meet in Pinedale last week. She said the shoulders from Kemmerer to Daniels was lined with dead deer. It's sad what a bad winter can do to the animals.
 
Robb did mention long range shooting as a being a problem. He said his shooting service was about accurate shooting, not long range and that he doesn't encourage long shots. That's cool.
He mentioned many of the things that affect trophy mule deer numbers.

Me starting this thread was simply because I was surprised at his support. Odds are great that non-residents will never get those tags back, so he probably better keep killing those big bucks or he'll be feeling the major affects of tag cuts to his business like other outfitters will.

Who here thinks non-residents will ever see those 200 tags again? Any chance at all? I say no way.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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I don't personally think the 200 tags will have any effect either positive or negative on the overall herd. It will have an effect on the hunt quality and trophy potential of Robbs hunters. I don't think services like Founders have an effect on overall herd size. I think Robb agrees with me. I think he is looking at this from a business perspective. I think he knows that limiting the number of tags will make for a better hunt for his clients. Its just that simple.

I don't think Founders service has a negative effect on herd size. If it expanded to a significant degree then it would. I have always thought that it cheapened what hunting was to me. It stresses B&C score and underminds the actual act of hunting. For me personally, I cannot imagine being so hung up on B&C score and having such a low opinion of my hunting abilities that I would need to pay a person to point to a map and tell me a big buck lives here and here is how you should hunt him. Particularly in an area that any, able bodied person can access with their own two feet with basic effort. Obviously others disagree and I support their views.
 
>
>Who here thinks non-residents will ever
>see those 200 tags again?
>Any chance at all? I
>say no way.
>

Ding, Ding, Ding we have a winner!
 
Ha, ya right. Those 200 tags are gone forever no doubt about it. Kinda sucks. Although I would be all for it if they would limit the resident tags. If your going to try and keep the trophy quality up they are going to have to do something with the resident tags eventually. Unless of course us non resident guys are just that much better at knocking down trophy bucks... I guess that could be the case.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-21-17 AT 04:51PM (MST)[p]Lots of outfitter coolaid being drank here. I am betting they "gave" those tags back because like someone said they are already booked well into the future and frankly don't care. They were sure against shortening seasons though and I suspect that's because it directly impacts the number of hunts they can squeeze into a season. I was expecting a shorter season and supported it. I've hunted H all my life and those last few days do indeed make a difference with deer movement and availability. That was a great show put on by outfitters and unfortunately the commission took the bait. I find it ironic that they talk about abuse of new technology and how it impacts deer but then spend the summer scouting from airplanes.
 
In response to your 2nd paragraph mulecreek the same could be said for doing taxes, remodeling ones kitchen, building a garage, rebuilding engines, etc. I do all those things myself. I like doing things myself if I have the time to work on it.
I spent 3 months this winter gutting and completely remodeling my entire kitchen. From the bottom (new sub floor) to the top (new ceiling) and everything in between. All electrical, plumbing, tile, installed cabinets, everything.
For someone self employed who has the time and flexibility to do it, then cool, learn what you need to and tackle the job. BUT, most people haven't the time to learn it all and do it. They have real jobs with the standard 2-3 weeks vacation. So, they hire people to help them out.
Of course it feels good to do everything yourself, but it's not realistic in this world. I installed all my cabinets, but I didn't build them myself. I wonder if somewhere someone is talking about how I'm an abled bodied person, why didn't I build my own cabinets. Why pay someone else to build them? Snickering as he pats himself on the back for knowing how make cabinets.

The guys I help aren't crappy hunters because they can't find the time to scout themselves, just as I'm not a crappy kitchen remodeler because someone else built the cabinets. The kitchen looks good! ha ha

You know what I'm saying? So comments about their low opinion of their hunting abilities is a bit of a cheap shot. One guy spent 7 days watching the same side hill before that buck showed himself. How many hunters do that? Damn few!!!!

Brian



>I don't personally think the 200
>tags will have any effect
>either positive or negative on
>the overall herd. It
>will have an effect on
>the hunt quality and trophy
>potential of Robbs hunters.
>I don't think services like
>Founders have an effect on
>overall herd size. I
>think Robb agrees with me.
> I think he is
>looking at this from a
>business perspective. I think
>he knows that limiting the
>number of tags will make
>for a better hunt for
>his clients. Its just
>that simple.
>
>I don't think Founders service has
>a negative effect on herd
>size. If it expanded
>to a significant degree then
>it would. I have
>always thought that it cheapened
>what hunting was to me.
> It stresses B&C score
>and underminds the actual act
>of hunting. For me
>personally, I cannot imagine being
>so hung up on B&C
>score and having such a
>low opinion of my hunting
>abilities that I would need
>to pay a person to
>point to a map and
>tell me a big buck
>lives here and here is
>how you should hunt him.
> Particularly in an area
>that any, able bodied person
>can access with their own
>two feet with basic effort.
> Obviously others disagree and
>I support their views.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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Let's face it Founder, you are just going to have to move to Wyoming and quit worrying about preference points. But about the time you do that, they will start limiting residents to one region and making them draw for permits. It is nothing but downhill from now on.
 
Who cares why? doing the right thing doesn't need to be justified to anyone.

200 NR tags cut won't make much of a difference since there will be 10,000 residents running around shooting anything with horns, I get it. but it's better than doing nothing. he's offering a sacrifice of some kind, more than anyone bashing him is offering.

I commend him.















Stay Thirsty My Friends
 
>In response to your 2nd paragraph
>mulecreek the same could be
>said for doing taxes, remodeling
>ones kitchen, building a garage,
>rebuilding engines, etc. I do
>all those things myself. I
>like doing things myself if
>I have the time to
>work on it.
>I spent 3 months this winter
>gutting and completely remodeling my
>entire kitchen. From the bottom
>(new sub floor) to the
>top (new ceiling) and everything
>in between. All electrical, plumbing,
>tile, installed cabinets, everything.
>For someone self employed who has
>the time and flexibility to
>do it, then cool, learn
>what you need to and
>tackle the job. BUT, most
>people haven't the time to
>learn it all and do
>it. They have real jobs
>with the standard 2-3 weeks
>vacation. So, they hire people
>to help them out.
>Of course it feels good to
>do everything yourself, but it's
>not realistic in this world.
>I installed all my cabinets,
>but I didn't build them
>myself. I wonder if somewhere
>someone is talking about how
>I'm an abled bodied person,
>why didn't I build my
>own cabinets. Why pay someone
>else to build them? Snickering
>as he pats himself on
>the back for knowing how
>make cabinets.
>
>The guys I help aren't crappy
>hunters because they can't find
>the time to scout themselves,
>just as I'm not a
>crappy kitchen remodeler because someone
>else built the cabinets. The
>kitchen looks good! ha ha
>
>
>You know what I'm saying? So
>comments about their low opinion
>of their hunting abilities is
>a bit of a cheap
>shot. One guy spent 7
>days watching the same side
>hill before that buck showed
>himself. How many hunters do
>that? Damn few!!!!
>
I would agree with your kitchen remodeling analogy if, for me, the goal of a kitchen remodel was to experience the joy of installing cabinets. For me, the only reason to remodel a kitchen is to get a fancy new kitchen. I keep stressing for me, I understand others have different opinions.

If my sole goal while hunting was to hang my tag on a 190" buck then I might just sign up for your service. Lord knows I have not been able to get that done on my own. But my goal when hunting it to find an animal I want to take, figure out what it is doing, figure out how to get close enough for a shot and then kill that animal. I am totally fine if the finding one or the kill doesn't happen. Most times when I am hunting deer it does not. I have only killed 1 buck in G & H in the last 6 years. I ate a 102 tag a couple of years ago because I couldn't find one I wanted to kill. I never left any of those hunts feeling that it was anything other than a great time. I think your service takes care of all my goals except the killing. For me that takes all the enjoyment out of it.

Using your kitchen analogy it would be like me walking over to my neighbors house and saying look at my kick-ass kitchen.
 
A lot of credit is being given to the outfitters and the truth is the decrease of cut tags, from 200 to 100 was a "compromise" for the outfitters. Not all of them, I only heard Rob, wanted that increased back to 200.

Today, the outfitters lobbied for decreasing the time for the left over drawing from 10 days to 5 days after the initial drawing. Sy Gilliland blamed residents for leftover tags and the need to have this 2nd drawing. What he didn't mention, is NR have a shot at those tags too, after residents, in the initial drawing. More misinformed trash talk from the 'man from WYOGA'.
 
>
>The guys I help aren't crappy
>hunters because they can't find
>the time to scout themselves,
>just as I'm not a
>crappy kitchen remodeler because someone
>else built the cabinets. The
>kitchen looks good! ha ha
>

Never said they were or were not. Don't know any of the folks that have used your service. Whether they are crappy hunters is unknown to me. But from what you are selling I bet they can follow instructions well.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Apr-21-17
>AT 04:51?PM (MST)
>
>Lots of outfitter coolaid being drank
>here. I am betting they
>"gave" those tags back because
>like someone said they are
>already booked well into the
>future and frankly don't care.
> They were sure against
>shortening seasons though and I
>suspect that's because it directly
>impacts the number of hunts
>they can squeeze into a
>season. I was expecting a
>shorter season and supported it.
>I've hunted H all my
>life and those last few
>days do indeed make a
>difference with deer movement and
>availability. That was
>a great show put on
>by outfitters and unfortunately the
>commission took the bait. I
>find it ironic that they
>talk about abuse of new
>technology and how it impacts
>deer but then spend the
>summer scouting from airplanes.


I've been hunting H mostly too and I'm in agreement with you. The 3 point restriction was all the restriction the commission wanted to put on resident hunters this year. But, this was the perfect year to address the hot button issue of "hunter shift" and close all general areas in G & H on the same day. The commissioners looked right passed the biologists reasoning for shortening the season when the outfitters said it would just put a larger # of hunters in the field for a shorter period of time and that storm events can happen any time during the deer season. I do believe that residents will be choosing the region they hunt in the very near future which Mr. Wiley is in favor of. Small forward steps made at this year's commissioners meeting for limiting future resident hunting pressure.
 
I'm sure Robb and 99% of the outfitters really do care about the deer herd but with the tag cut it just decreases supply and increases demand which means he can charge more. So guide less hunters for the same income.
 
I have
>always thought that it cheapened
>what hunting was to me.
> It stresses B&C score
>and underminds the actual act
>of hunting. For me
>personally, I cannot imagine being
>so hung up on B&C
>score and having such a
>low opinion of my hunting
>abilities that I would need
>to pay a person to
>point to a map and
>tell me a big buck
>lives here and here is
>how you should hunt him.

> ^^^^This X1,000, Go find your own buck.

Thanks Robb. I only wish they would have cut more NR Tags. lol


[font face="verdana" color="green"] Jake
Swensen
 
I think most every one of us has come to respect and cherish our wildlife.

I do not think it is a matter of category---outfitter's thru DIY hunters, ressy or non-ressy.

Robb
 
> I have
>>always thought that it cheapened
>>what hunting was to me.
>> It stresses B&C score
>>and underminds the actual act
>>of hunting. For me
>>personally, I cannot imagine being
>>so hung up on B&C
>>score and having such a
>>low opinion of my hunting
>>abilities that I would need
>>to pay a person to
>>point to a map and
>>tell me a big buck
>>lives here and here is
>>how you should hunt him.
>
>> ^^^^This X1,000, Go find your own buck.
>
>Thanks Robb. I only wish they
>would have cut more NR
>Tags. lol
>
>
>[font face="verdana" color="green"] Jake
>Swensen

I wish they would send half the transplants back to where they are from.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-17 AT 08:30AM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-17 AT 08:22?AM (MST)

Personally I think they should have kept the shorter season. But started it later than ending it earlier. And as a resident I agree with mule creek on self regulation. If I don't find a Muley I want to harvest I wait till November and head east to region A and try to take a whitetail for some winter grub. Which a pick a region will put a dampener on which I'm ok with I know a lot of residents do the same, will this affect on there choice of shooting a Muley since they won't be able to go after whitetail ? Not sure but it won't for me I'll try to draw some additional cow elk and doeantelope to fill the freezer as I do every year!!! Also think all the areas should open and close on same day if pick your region gos into effect some day for res. Etc 135 in region G should open and close same as all the other areas in that region.
 
Sorry fault current there's no sending me back, I'm here for life.

I don't agree with Robb on going limited quota for Residents because it takes away from my opportunity.?

I believe we still have enough bucks to breed all of the available does. Going limited quota isn't going to save any does! Robb is going to be booked with plenty of clients because he is known for killing giant bucks. Limited quota would be great for him, less competition for the available trophy mule deer bucks.
I don't want to see residents lose the opportunity. I want my son's to be able to buy a tag otc and hunt the areas I love to hunt.
If an area doesn't have enough bucks to breed all of the available does then limited quota is a good solution. I also think cutting NR tags saves a few bucks for residents so I have no complaints about cutting a couple hundred NR tags.

Keys to increasing The Wyoming Range Mule Deer Population.

*Reduce the coyote population.

*Build highway fences and over or under passes where mule deer concentrate on winter ranges.

*No doe mule deer hunting.

*Preserve the remaining mule deer winter ranges and protect them from future development.


[font face="verdana" color="green"]
Jake Swensen
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-22-17 AT 05:29PM (MST)[p]+1


"I wish they would send half the transplants back to where they are from."

Funny

Robb
 
Which half of the transplants need to be sent back where they came from?

One of my sons will probably go back where he came from within the next year, but he doesn't hunt.

The one that hunts a lot may never go back where he came from (Tardville). I can cash in on that by going with him every year. No points required to tag along and help with the pack-out.
 
If my wife didn't have a great job here, maybe. But you're right, as soon as I moved up there and pushed 3' feet of snow off my driveway on a really cold day, they'd limit resident tags in the places I want to hunt and I'd be coming back to Utah in the summer to scout and in the fall to hunt.
Wyoming will go limited for residents, it's just a matter of time.
They're patting Robb on the back today for helping to shave away an extra 100 non-resident tags forever, but the patting will sqreech to a halt when he's recommending resident tags go limited and they follow that suggestion.


>Let's face it Founder, you are
>just going to have to
>move to Wyoming and quit
>worrying about preference points. But
>about the time you do
>that, they will start limiting
>residents to one region and
>making them draw for permits.
>It is nothing but downhill
>from now on.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
Pick a region won't do squat to limit hunters in G and H. If every hunter in Wyoming had to chose, they are going to pick the best regions in the state...G or H.
I will fight limited quota to my grave, the outfitters are bringing a war on themselves from resident hunters. The G and F commission has given them too much leverage and it's time to push back.
 
> Sorry fault current there's no
>sending me back, I'm here
>for life.
>
>I don't agree with Robb on
>going limited quota for Residents
>because it takes away from
>my opportunity.?
>
>I believe we still have enough
>bucks to breed all of
>the available does. Going limited
>quota isn't going to save
>any does! Robb is going
>to be booked with plenty
>of clients because he is
>known for killing giant bucks.
>Limited quota would be great
>for him, less competition for
>the available trophy mule deer
>bucks.
>I don't want to see residents
>lose the opportunity. I want
>my son's to be able
>to buy a tag otc
>and hunt the areas I
>love to hunt.
>If an area doesn't have enough
>bucks to breed all of
>the available does then limited
>quota is a good solution.
>I also think cutting NR
>tags saves a few bucks
>for residents so I have
>no complaints about cutting a
>couple hundred NR tags.
>
>Keys to increasing The Wyoming Range
>Mule Deer Population.
>
>*Reduce the coyote population.
>
>*Build highway fences and over or
>under passes where mule deer
>concentrate on winter ranges.
>
>*No doe mule deer hunting.
>
>*Preserve the remaining mule deer winter
>ranges and protect them from
>future development.
>
>
>[font face="verdana" color="green"]
>Jake Swensen

Coyotes? Ha! Not even top 10 issue...
 
>
>Coyotes? Ha! Not even top
>10 issue...


Studies have shown they take up to 75% of fawns in certain areas.
 
>
>>
>>Coyotes? Ha! Not even top
>>10 issue...
>
>
>Studies have shown they take up
>to 75% of fawns in
>certain areas.


Please post links to said study, any study by anyone from Utah will automatically be mocked...
 
A six-year study shows fawn production in the Steens Mountain deer herd is within the normal range for mule deer, averaging 156 fetuses per 100 mature does, or 131 fetuses per 100 females of all ages. Peri- odic inventories of fawn:doe ratios show an estimated total loss during the first nine months of life of the fawns to be nearly 78 percent. Radiotelemetry studies of fawn deer in the Steens indicate predation (mostly by coyotes) is the principal direct cause of known fawn mortality during both summer (55 percent) and winter (78 percent) periods. From September to December 1975, all 12 mortalities that occurred in a sample of 21 fawns monitored were due to predation?9 to coyotes and 3 to bobcats.
 
The worst I've seen it was after 92-93 winter. The hunting was terrible! Still seeing 12-15 buck s a day in some of the most beautiful country there is around. Just terrible I tell ya!

This "problem" has been studied to death. And still is. I think the problem is people's perception of what it SHOULD be like. Not what it is, or how it's ever been. You talk to a guy who's hunted there for 20 years and its "ruined" now. Go down the trail and talk to a guy who its his first time hunting it and its the "hunt of of his life".

I feel for the non res that are faced with these tag cuts. 200 is a lot and you're not going to get them back. It's not going to happen. Look at the history of tag cuts in those regions. They are gone forever.

I feel the residents should feel some burden from this. I would like to propose that everyone that has moved to the state in the last 20 years from Utah be put in a non resident pool. It's the least that can be done to help out our non res brothers and to curtail the Utah mentality that is trying to influence resident hunting in WY. Luckily they are like a chained dog most the time and are all bark to bite. They are usually too busy trying to self promote themselves to really get involved in the policies.

Some other minor changes I would like to see is:

no grazing of sheep or cattle on winter range.

elk feedgrounds ended. The elk population has exploded in lots of these areas (those damn wolves are crappy hunters). Even in 102 and 101 which used to be trophy units the elk population has jumped in the last 15 years.

Ending all migration hunts in UTAH and ID that are Wyoming Deer. And ending all migration type hunts in Region G and H. Example is the last season opening of 135 of oct 1st. Some of those bucks have already started their journey. I would like to see 135 open sept 15th or 25th and all deer hunts end before Oct 5th if possible.

Guys that wear flat brim hats have a waiting period after killing a buck in G or H.

That is all...
 
> I think the problem
>is people's perception of what
>it SHOULD be like.
>Not what it is, or
>how it's ever been.
>You talk to a guy
>who's hunted there for 20
>years and its "ruined" now.
> Go down the trail
>and talk to a guy
>who its his first time
>hunting it and its the
>"hunt of of his life".
>
>


So why not listen to someone who knows how good it could be and strive to get there again rather than settle for what it is?
 
>So you now agree that coyotes
>are an issue since I've
>posted studies?


I never said coyotes were an issue. Just said not top 10. Only a utard would put them as number 1.

That peterson hunting article is worthless, based on a fenced in study and an author that has seen 2 coyotes in his day...funny!
 
>>So you now agree that coyotes
>>are an issue since I've
>>posted studies?
>
>
>I never said coyotes were an
>issue. Just said not
>top 10. Only a
>utard would put them as
>number 1.
>
>That peterson hunting article is worthless,
>based on a fenced in
>study and an author that
>has seen 2 coyotes in
>his day...funny!


Google the impacts of coyotes on Wildlife Oregon State University. I cited the pertinent part but you can read the whole thing if you want. I'd put predation in the top 5 with coyote being the most responsible.
 
>>>So you now agree that coyotes
>>>are an issue since I've
>>>posted studies?
>>
>>
>>I never said coyotes were an
>>issue. Just said not
>>top 10. Only a
>>utard would put them as
>>number 1.
>>
>>That peterson hunting article is worthless,
>>based on a fenced in
>>study and an author that
>>has seen 2 coyotes in
>>his day...funny!
>
>
>Google the impacts of coyotes on
>Wildlife Oregon State University. I
>cited the pertinent part but
>you can read the whole
>thing if you want. I'd
>put predation in the top
>5 with coyote being the
>most responsible.

Thanks, I'll look into it. Always enjoy reading studies.
 
>
>So why not listen to someone
>who knows how good it
>could be and strive to
>get there again rather than
>settle for what it is?
>

My point was perspective on a situation...

Is it really that bad? G in its worst shape is still better than many other areas.

There's too many factors keeping deer from rebounding quickly after a bad winter.

I would love to see the deer numbers come back. Instead we have to lower our standards and wildlife agency's lower the herd's objective numbers....
 
Outstanding!Just retired here n Calif.Movin to Star valley n a few weeks. Ye haw! G tags for the rest of my life!Hell ya, kick those Non residents in the arse! Cya all on the mnt!
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-23-17 AT 08:25PM (MST)[p]>Outstanding!Just retired here n Calif.Movin to
>Star valley n a few
>weeks. Ye haw! G tags
>for the rest of my
>life!Hell ya, kick those Non
>residents in the arse! Cya
>all on the mnt!


You won't be hunting G as a resident until 2018 since it takes a full year in Wyoming from when you establish residence there to put in for any resident tags.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-23-17 AT 09:39PM (MST)[p]The best option would be to make the Region G & H Sept 15-30th LQ with 1800 tags for each region for residents. (these LQ permits would only be good for archery & the rifle in these regions). Region G & H would then open to general permit holders Oct 1st along with the rest of the general hunt areas. Something like this would have multiple net positive impacts, including
1. Reduced hunt pressure when the big deer are in their summer pattern and most vulnerable.
2. Reduced nonresident hunters. If the G&F issued 10% in the respective hunt areas that would be 180 non resident tags for each HA. You could then give another 10% for the Oct 1st general.
3. Better draw odds for the other LQ hunt areas for residents. Take 3600 resident hunters out of the draw for HA 101,102,& 128-129. The odds would have to get substantially better for these other hunt areas.
4. Less crowded hunting across the rest of the state for obvious reasons.

If region G & H were to go LQ for residents without a general component it would be a disaster. A huge % of the permits would go to the landowners. If there is a general component there are no landowner tags.
 
LAST EDITED ON Apr-23-17 AT 09:27PM (MST)[p]
fedupto said:
>The best option would be to make the Region G & H Sept 15-31st



You may have a difficult time running that season until Sept 31st.

ClearCreek
 
He11 if I was worried about the deer herd I WOULD cut a BIG number of tags not just a 100 from the NR tags, How about 500 from the resident pool too and make the area a special draw tag only area.
IF you really want to help out the deer herd why tie your hands with a 100 NR tags lets get serious and cut tags big time across board.Guys like to cut tags until it their tags that are getting cut you cut a huge number from the resident pool I bet you will heard a howl.
Glad they are cutting some tags, BUT let make it a good way to get the numbers back up by cutting a big bunch of tags that inculded resident tags too.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
Studies show shorter seasons increase pressure and increase kill rates as everyone is in the field at the same time.
 
You look hard enough and you could probably find a study that counters your study.....ha ha ha Right?
I don't know one way or the other. My guess would be that shaving a few days off the end of a 20 day hunt probably doesn't change much, unless it's removing a weekend.

The first few days is when most people are in the field, then after that I would guess most people hit it on weekends a bit. I think in G, they just eliminated that final weekend, right?

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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on Facebook!
 
So Founder...I saw you in La Barge. Did you get a chance to see for yourself?

I would have been tickled to pick up as many sheds as deer I saw dead.
Only seen a couple fawns on their feet.



"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
I'm one of those lucky SW Wyoming residents. I say align all the general seasons in western Wyoming to open and close the same dates. I also say close all Wyoming range deer hunting in 2017 (to everyone). I also say the BLM should keep all winter range lands open to the public year round and put a bounty on coyotes and wolves in the area. If you get caught /convicted of poaching, you loose hunting privileges for life!

If next year doesn't look better do it again.

I also say if you want trophy quality back, outlaw selling critter GPS coordinates (sorry Founder...you had a post a while back about how to get more trophy class critters...its simple math, there are only so many that get that big and your business model will only increases the probability that less will make it to the next year...just saying).
 
I haven't found all the dead fawns myself. I've seen a few dead deer, but not that many. Maybe tomorrow.


>So Founder...I saw you in La
>Barge. Did you get a
>chance to see for yourself?
>
>
>I would have been tickled to
>pick up as many sheds
>as deer I saw dead.
>
>Only seen a couple fawns on
>their feet.
>
>
>
>"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak.
>So
>we must and we will."
>Theadore Roosevelt


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
In your opinion deerfanatic, if I scouted for an outfitter and told him where some of the biggest bucks are, then are you okay with scouting for compensation??? And if not, do you want to see all scouting by outfitters and their guides outlawed?
Just curious.
One thing is for sure, an outfitter hunting a particular buck for 3 weeks has a far better chance of getting it than a fellow from back east coming out for a 5 day backpack hunt.


>I'm one of those lucky SW
>Wyoming residents. I say align
>all the general seasons in
>western Wyoming to open and
>close the same dates. I
>also say close all Wyoming
>range deer hunting in 2017
>(to everyone). I also say
>the BLM should keep all
>winter range lands open to
>the public year round and
>put a bounty on coyotes
>and wolves in the area.
> If you get
>caught /convicted of poaching, you
>loose hunting privileges for life!
>
>
>If next year doesn't look better
>do it again.
>
>I also say if you want
>trophy quality back, outlaw selling
>critter GPS coordinates (sorry Founder...you
>had a post a while
>back about how to get
>more trophy class critters...its simple
>math, there are only so
>many that get that big
>and your business model will
>only increases the probability that
>less will make it to
>the next year...just saying).


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
LIKE MonsterMuleys.com
on Facebook!
 
In your opinion deerfanatic, if I scouted for an outfitter and told him where some of the biggest bucks are, then are you okay with scouting for compensation??? And if not, do you want to see all scouting by outfitters and their guides outlawed?
Just curious.
One thing is for sure, an outfitter hunting a particular buck for 3 weeks has a far better chance of getting it than a fellow from back east coming out for a 5 day backpack hunt.

Founder,

Isn't this exactly what you are advertising in the hunts and tags section? You are now working for or with an outfitter and going to do all the scouting for him? And you are looking for clients to book?
I guess I can see why you are butt hurt Old Wiley is in favor of cutting NR tags. This will cut into your outfitters clients, and your own personal cash crop.

Interesting
 
Can someone explain to me as to why there are and need to be "guides or outfitters" anymore at all?

I went in to H last year completely blind other than my gps and google earth pics. I found 7-9 bucks that would be worthy on any guide's website.

Does the state of Wyoming really make that much money this way? Why not just charge more money for the tags and do away with guides?

There's no way Founders thing is doing near as much damage as even one guiding outfit. Besides, isn't Brian's last Wyoming buck an archery kill like 3-5 years ago? He's not the problem........his videos are. They give me the energy to go do it myself, yet still I fail.

"That's a special feeling, Lloyd"
 
>Can someone explain to me as
>to why there are and
>need to be "guides or
>outfitters" anymore at all?
>
>I went in to H last
>year completely blind other than
>my gps and google earth
>pics. I found 7-9
>bucks that would be worthy
>on any guide's website.
>
>Does the state of Wyoming really
>make that much money this
>way?
>Why not just charge more
>money for the tags and
>do away with guides?
>
>There's no way Founders thing is
>doing near as much damage
>as even one guiding outfit.
> Besides,
>isn't Brian's last Wyoming buck
>an archery kill like 3-5
>years ago? He's
>not the problem........his videos are.
> They give me the
>energy to go do it
>myself, yet still I fail.
>
>
>"That's a special feeling, Lloyd"


Ummmmm because some people like to go guided? Why do you go out to eat when you can cook?

You saw 7 or 9 bucks worthy of the outfitters page? Lets see the one you shot...

Also are you not the same guy that cried about seeing guys in one of your spots?

Hahahaa why do guys cry when they see other hunters?
 
Lots of comments on here about how the outfitters pushed for the tag cuts because they are "concerned about the deer herd". I say BS!!! If they were "truly" concerned then maybe they should reduce the number of hunters they take out, or better yet maybe they should quit their business of killing big bucks. I think they have enough hunters booked that they don't need those 200 NR tags. But they do know that the percentage of NR hunters that get deep into the high country is much higher than the percentage of resident hunters in the high country competing for the same bucks they are after. Therefore it is easy for them to reduce competition for those bucks by reducing the NR tags. In my opinion, their push for tag cuts was self centered for the betterment of their business by reducing competition for the bigger bucks.
 
Yup you hit the nail on the head! In my opinion there were a couple of different groups that used this horrible winter to drive personal agendas none of which had the deer heard in the best interest! The game commission is either very easy to manipulate, they are stupid, or they are crooked. I am not sure which is worse but mark my words that this year is going to be one we look back on down the road and get sick over the decisions made. Mother Nature gave us a great test this year and we failed miserably!
 
LAST EDITED ON May-02-17 AT 08:16AM (MST)[p]I must have been at a different Commission meeting or just wasn't paying attention. I only remember Wiley talking about putting the cut back to -200 from G. Before the meeting the G&F buckled for the outfitters, Brimeyer said "compromised" and reduced the cut in G & H to -100 each.

Most outfitters did not want the 200 tags to go away, they just wanted to bash resident hunters.
 
LAST EDITED ON May-02-17 AT 08:18AM (MST)[p]>I must have been at a
>different Commission meeting or just
>wasn't paying attention. I only
>remember Wiley talking about putting
>the cut back to -200
>from G. Before the meeting
>the G&F buckled for the
>outfitters, Brimeyer said "compromised" and
>reduced the cut in G
>& H to -100 each.
>
>
>Most outfitters did not want the
>200 tags to go away,
>they just wanted to bash
>resident hunters.

That's interesting Jeff. I guess before we make comments we should have been at the entire meeting to see what transpired. My bad!
 
I was not at the meeting but did take the time to watch and listen to the whole thing. Now granted I was not privy to the conversations that took place on the side but this is what I took out of it. Wiley spoke of this huge perceived hunter shift problem. That is into area 135. He made it a point to suggest that was going to be and I guess has been the biggest "problem" with how G and H are managed. And because of the horrible winter we had this year that must change. As you said above he did lobby for the 200 tag cuts for non residents.

Everything stated above I think we all can agree on.

So here are my questions and points to be made about what happened at the meeting.

1) how many years prior has he lobbied for 135 and the rest of G and H to be closed at the same time? I truly don't know the answer to this question but I have my suspicions.

2) Is "helping" area 135 of this perceived hunter shift which is only about 5 percent of G and H going to help a deer heard that was decimated this winter. So in other words we have the worst winter maybe ever and the big guns go and lobby for something to help 5 percent of that heard???? That raised some serious red flags with me.

3) where does Wiley primarily guid most of his hunters?

4) yes he did lobby for less non residents tags... Is there being less tags for non res going to affect his bottom line in his business?

5) would having less non res hunters in G and H ( do it yourself) guys increase his chance on the mountain of getting his target bucks?

6) is his business currently booked all the way through 2020?

7) Did the smoke screen of hunter shift into an area he doesn't hunt that much 135 help seal the deal on closing all of G and H pretty much on the same day? And did that in turn make sure to keep G and H where he primarily hunts open for that extra week? So now he still operates on the same scedual he has been.

So now I look at this as a whole and think to myself... Worst winter that at least most of us can remember... Deer herd completely destroyed this year on the winter range. All the while outfitters are lobbing for a change that will help 5 percent of the area and a few less hunters in the field. All the while the bottom line of their business will not be affected....

In my mind this is what happened here. They got together and knew with the harsh winter and all the reduced seasons the biologist and wardens were wanting they knew there were going to be some changes made. Put up a huge smoke screen and make it look like they would do anything for the better good of the heard even cut non res tags all the while not affecting their bottom line one bit and the commission bought it hook line and sinker!

Maybe I am a huge conspiracy theorists but I do not think it is to far of a stretch to connect those dots
 
Help me understand this.
Does Wyoming regulate the number of resident hunters in the state each year?Does Wyoming regulate the number of resident hunters In the field for each area/unit?
Nonresident tag numbers are limited and have to choose an area. With a brutal winter that you had, would it make sense for Wyoming to regulate its residents too until deer numbers bounce back?





"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
>Help me understand this.
>Does Wyoming regulate the number of
>resident hunters in the state
>each year?
***Only in LQ draw areas

Does Wyoming regulate the
>number of resident hunters In
>the field for each area/unit?
***See above answer

>Nonresident tag numbers are limited and
>have to choose an area.
>With a brutal winter that
>you had, would it make
>sense for Wyoming to regulate
>its residents too until deer
>numbers bounce back?
***Probably IMHO, but cutting resident numbers in certain general areas like G & H when they can hunt any general area on that same tag would require some changes that has not yet come about.
 
My questions were in regard to resident general tags. Thanks for the answer.
To me, due to the brutal winter, it would make sense for Wyoming to begin limiting the resident tags to a specific areas and certain weapons. Increase the resident tag prices to 40$, get rid of regular tag prices and make the special prices a standard for nonresident fees. End the doe harvest option for youth, adjust the hunt dates.

It makes absolutely zero sense to drastically reduce nonresident tags but keep it unlimited to residents.
I believe these things need to take affect in order to help rebound the dramatic loss in mule deer populations due to the severity of our winter conditions



"Wildlife and its habitat cannot speak. So
we must and we will."
Theadore Roosevelt
 
Why doesn't wyo shorten the season for non res? Non res may hunt harder but they talk funny and look funny. They also smell funny. Lets limit them to a week. Theres only so many days a year flat brimmers with lifted up trucks should be able to hunt.

Non res in G should be a 7 day affair!
 
>Why doesn't wyo shorten the season
>for non res? Non
>res may hunt harder but
>they talk funny and look
>funny. They also smell
>funny. Lets limit them
>to a week. Theres
>only so many days a
>year flat brimmers with lifted
>up trucks should be able
>to hunt.
>
>Non res in G should be
>a 7 day affair!


7 days max! Love it fault!
 
Founder...don't take this personal. You have figured out a creative way to make some extra cash, doing something you love to do. I applaud your creativity and entrepreneurship. Everyone should be so lucky to find a way to make some money doing what they love. In no way am I assuming you are making a killing at this business...I don't know, care, or venture to guess if you even covered your expenses. That is none of my business.

What you have done however, is opened a new door and method to exploit cash from public wildlife. In doing so, it is only fair to allow the public an opportunity to debate and recommend action, if any on such methods. To your question about working for an outfitter would I be ok with it...my response would be, if you are on an outfitters payroll, working under and within their permits then I would be ok. That said, I fail to even see the logical comparison in activities . I would better compare it with the question...am I ok with the "under the table outfitter" that brings a handful of his potential "business partners" up to my hunting camp year after year. Cash or business opportunities are exchanged either under the table or via an indirect exchange of goods and/or services. I could also compare it to the debate surrounding utilizing drones to scout for wildlife or using an airplane.

Outfitters are regulated. From what I have read, on this site, I am under the impression that you are not performing your services under contract or within the bounds of their permits. If that is false information, please accept my apology. And let's continue the discussion to this question...should the practice of trading GPS coordinates of public wildlife with the intention to hunt or harvest said wildlife in exchange for cash, services or other goods be an acceptable practice with zero limitations or controls in place.

In my opinion that practice should be controlled. By exploiting public wildlife with the intent to better oneself, the practice is impacting the opportunities of the general public. Additionally, in doing so it provides zero gain to improving the overall health and vitality of wildlife in general. While today, the practice may only be performed by a few responsible individuals with good intentions , the practice will spread exponentially year after year to the point that the general public will get scammed, and every game animal will have a price tag attached to his head. Bigger antlers or horns will continue to increase in value to the highest bidder. Irresponsible people will come up with creative ways to ensure they deliver and their client connects. Game cameras hooked to satellite phones monitoring every move...heat detection cameras mounted to drones monitoring movement...who knows. Money will drive the cheat. Connecting with that dream buck... will turn into an activity reserved for the monetary elite and the general public will suffer the consequences.

To use history as a lesson, the monetary value of antlers started to sky rocket in the late 80's and early 90's. Horn hunting started getting out of control. In western Wyoming the public asked the game and fish to enforce the harassment laws on the winter range or implement a season. The mighty dollar had people chasing big bucks on winter ground in hopes they would drop. The G&F wouldn't respond, so the BLM did and closed access to huge blocks of public ground until May 1st. A couple years later the G&F implemented a "season" on the west side of the continental divide. Two decades later the BLM still has all that land closed from Jan 1 to May 1 to the general public. Again all the public suffered the consequences from the irresponsible few.
 
Tknez, I believe Wiley runs 3 camps. Grey's River Camp. Lake Alice area camp in 135, and a new camp in 135 along 89 near Border based out of property he purchased last year.

I may be incorrect, but I think it's public record. As for permits, the first two are Forest Service, latter is BLM.
 
Billybob wants us to raise our deer license's by a whopping $2... ?????

Thank you for that info ASB... That guy is truly everywhere!! No doubt that business is booming for him, and rightfully so, as I feel it can't even be debated that he is the best for sure at his craft in western Wyoming. I would like to be clear that the reason all the things above that I did was not to bash on Wiley. He has a job to do and that is how he provides for his family and I get that... All I am wanting to do as some others have also done on here simply through in there a "not so fast" on praising him for how he lobbied to the commission. I really do feel there is more to it then just what appears at face value.

I for one and many other hunters that I know would have been happy with a complete closure of all of G and H for this year and even next! Then lets revisit after we see the true effects of this winter. I know that was probably never going to happen and I even know more today then did I yesterday about why that had no real chance of happening this year.
 
Gotcha' deerfanatic. Well, the day may come when they pass a law.

Crazy to think there could be a law to stop me from telling someone where I saw a deer even in exchange for a cup of coffee.



>Founder...don't take this personal. You
>have figured out a creative
>way to make some extra
>cash, doing something you love
>to do. I applaud
>your creativity and entrepreneurship.
>Everyone should be so lucky
>to find a way to
>make some money doing what
>they love. In no
>way am I assuming you
>are making a killing at
>this business...I don't know, care,
>or venture to guess if
>you even covered your expenses.
>That is none of my
>business.
>
>What you have done however, is
>opened a new door and
>method to exploit cash from
>public wildlife. In doing so,
>it is only fair to
>allow the public an opportunity
>to debate and recommend action,
>if any on such methods.
>To your question about working
>for an outfitter would I
>be ok with it...my response
>would be, if you are
>on an outfitters payroll, working
>under and within their permits
>then I would be ok.
>That said, I fail to
>even see the logical comparison
>in activities .
> I would better compare
>it with the question...am I
>ok with the "under the
>table outfitter" that brings a
>handful of his potential "business
>partners" up to my hunting
>camp year after year. Cash
>or business opportunities are exchanged
>either under the table or
>via an indirect exchange of
>goods and/or services. I
>could also compare it to
>the debate surrounding utilizing drones
>to scout for wildlife or
>using an airplane.
>
>Outfitters are regulated. From what I
>have read, on this site,
>I am under the impression
>that you are not performing
>your services under contract or
>within the bounds of their
>permits. If that is false
>information, please accept my apology.
> And let's continue the
>discussion to this question...should the
>practice of trading GPS coordinates
>of public wildlife with the
>intention to hunt or harvest
>said wildlife in exchange for
>cash, services or other goods
>be an acceptable practice with
>zero limitations or controls in
>place.
>
>In my opinion that practice should
>be controlled. By exploiting public
>wildlife with the intent to
>better oneself, the practice is
>impacting the opportunities of the
>general public. Additionally, in doing
>so it provides zero gain
>to improving the overall health
>and vitality of wildlife in
>general. While today, the practice
>may only be performed by
>a few responsible individuals with
>good intentions , the practice
>will spread exponentially year after
>year to the point that
>the general public will get
>scammed, and every game animal
>will have a price tag
>attached to his head. Bigger
>antlers or horns will continue
>to increase in value to
>the highest bidder. Irresponsible
>people will come up with
>creative ways to ensure they
>deliver and their client connects.
>Game cameras hooked to satellite
>phones monitoring every move...heat detection
>cameras mounted to drones monitoring
>movement...who knows. Money will drive
>the cheat. Connecting with
>that dream buck... will turn
>into an activity reserved for
>the monetary elite and the
>general public will suffer the
>consequences.
>
>To use history as a lesson,
>the monetary value of antlers
>started to sky rocket in
>the late 80's and early
>90's. Horn hunting started getting
>out of control. In western
>Wyoming the public asked the
>game and fish to enforce
>the harassment laws on the
>winter range or implement a
>season. The mighty dollar had
>people chasing big bucks on
>winter ground in hopes they
>would drop. The G&F wouldn't
>respond, so the BLM did
>and closed access to huge
>blocks of public ground until
>May 1st. A couple years
>later the G&F implemented a
>"season" on the west side
>of the continental divide. Two
>decades later the BLM still
>has all that land closed
>from Jan 1 to May
>1 to the general public.
>Again all the public suffered
>the consequences from the irresponsible
>few.


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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I disagree with that simple assessment Brian. That would hold merit if you were at the coffee shop talking big bucks. Difference is you are promoting the hell out of it. At this point in time, I'm not saying it's right or wrong. My comments are to say it's not as simple as you put out there, for what it's worth.

I am just getting out of hibernation & haven't talked to Neil, which guide are you working for?
 
Sure I simplified it, but the line has to be drawn somewhere. Is it at coffee, lunch, dinner, free dental work, gas for the scouting trip, etc.??? That's all. Just wondering where others say the line should be, if there should be one at all.


>I disagree with that simple assessment
>Brian. That would hold merit
>if you were at the
>coffee shop talking big bucks.
>Difference is you are promoting
>the hell out of it.
>At this point in time,
>I'm not saying it's right
>or wrong. My comments are
>to say it's not as
>simple as you put out
>there, for what it's worth.
>
>
>I am just getting out of
>hibernation & haven't talked to
>Neil, which guide are you
>working for?


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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Just beating a dead horse here.
The line is drawn when you advertise "packages" for different bucks at different prices and you give GPS or map locations.

Simple enough?
 
That would an interestingly written law. Sounds simple to me. Real "simple". ha ha


>Just beating a dead horse here.
>
> The line is drawn when
>you advertise "packages" for different
>bucks at different prices and
>you give GPS or map
>locations.
>
>Simple enough?


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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>Sure I simplified it, but the
>line has to be drawn
>somewhere. Is it at coffee,
>lunch, dinner, free dental work,
>gas for the scouting trip,
>etc.??? That's all. Just wondering
>where others say the line
>should be, if there should
>be one at all.
>
> How about it's drawn at the fact you are taking compensation for a service in the state of Wyoming yet not paying a single dollar of that to taxes as a business in Wyoming. Unlike all outfitters who have required permits, insurance, and pay taxes to the state they operate their business in... also, now that you can't draw a tag every year like previous, it doesn't effect you at all to sell off locations of those bucks.. so once again, if you do this because you just like to "help" people like you seem to suggest...We have still yet to see you offer this service in your OWN state
 
>That would an interestingly written law.
>Sounds simple to me. Real
>"simple". ha ha

Brian, you understand this is being studied in the interim Travel, Rec & Wildlife committee, right? It's not just outfitters that think this practice is unethical and should be illegal. I know, this is where you list long range guns, trail cameras, optics and super duper power bars as all being "new" technology that give us advantages. It goes way beyond that. Plain and simple this is wholesale selling of wildlife or at the very least, the selling out of hunting as we know it.

I have a question for you: As someone who puts out the effort and busts your butt to get in the backcountry, spends hours upon hours locating big mule deer bucks, and pits your skills against a particular buck, either winning or losing that challenge, what makes it so easy for you to sell out all those other bucks you worked so hard finding? Is it really the money?

If it is, you and I hunt for totally different reasons.
 
SNS Outfitters is who I'll be working with. Like others, obviously, outfitters can increase their chance of success with preseason scouting. SNS has done their scouting in the past, just now I'll be working for them too. I won't be doing any guiding. I don't think I have the people skills, horse skills, patience or time to be a guide. Maybe someday when I no longer have my own hunts to go on...??
Hopefully I'm a good addition to their team and what I bring to the table helps.

Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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If I recall correctly there are other folks that have been offering "scouting" packages in western states for many years. From my understanding they dont provide GPS coordinates for specific bucks but do provide basic information such as population and quality of animals, trail locations, access, etc.

So if Founder dials back on the detail in his packages it seems he's doing nothing different than the others have been doing for some time. From my perspective it appears folks are upset because Founder is posting pictures of specific bucks with estimated B&C scores and pricing for each.

Would cutting out the details that Founder provide satisfy the WY folks? Or is WY looking to blanket outlaw this practice such that anything remotely similar could land someone in legal trouble?
 
Come on man, you sound like one of those politicians who think that me telling someone where I saw a deer makes it so easy to harvest that deer. Have you ever scouted? Are the bucks you find scouting that easy to just show up and shoot? If they are that easy, then scouting for all should be outlawed. Come on man! I ain't selling a deer in a cage. They're really hard to get, even when you know where they live.

Outfitters who say that I'm unethical because I tell someone where I saw a deer should look in the mirror. They take people to deer!!! Sometimes they even take people to deer they found preseason scouting!?!?! LOL
The unethical angle was what that politician tried to use to get the law passed. "It's unethical, so you should have to have a guide license to do it". That was amusing. Kind of silly really.


>>That would an interestingly written law.
>>Sounds simple to me. Real
>>"simple". ha ha
>
>Brian, you understand this is being
>studied in the interim Travel,
>Rec & Wildlife committee, right?
>It's not just outfitters that
>think this practice is unethical
>and should be illegal. I
>know, this is where you
>list long range guns, trail
>cameras, optics and super duper
>power bars as all being
>"new" technology that give us
>advantages. It goes way beyond
>that. Plain and simple this
>is wholesale selling of wildlife
>or at the very least,
>the selling out of hunting
>as we know it.
>
>I have a question for you:
>As someone who puts out
>the effort and busts your
>butt to get in the
>backcountry, spends hours upon hours
>locating big mule deer bucks,
>and pits your skills against
>a particular buck, either winning
>or losing that challenge, what
>makes it so easy for
>you to sell out all
>those other bucks you worked
>so hard finding? Is it
>really the money?
>
>If it is, you and I
>hunt for totally different reasons.
>


Brian Latturner
MonsterMuleys.com
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mtnguide what amount of those outfitter fees goes to wildlife? I love it when Joe Texan borrows the outfitters long range rifle whom he has never even held and pops a buck at a 1000 yards.
 
>>Sure I simplified it, but the
>>line has to be drawn
>>somewhere. Is it at coffee,
>>lunch, dinner, free dental work,
>>gas for the scouting trip,
>>etc.??? That's all. Just wondering
>>where others say the line
>>should be, if there should
>>be one at all.
>>
>> How about it's drawn at the fact you are taking compensation for a service in the state of Wyoming yet not paying a single dollar of that to taxes as a business in Wyoming. Unlike all outfitters who have required permits, insurance, and pay taxes to the state they operate their business in... also, now that you can't draw a tag every year like previous, it doesn't effect you at all to sell off locations of those bucks.. so once again, if you do this because you just like to "help" people like you seem to suggest...We have still yet to see you offer this service in your OWN state


This guy.... Nailed it!
 
Come on
>man! I ain't selling a
>deer in a cage.


I think that's the whole issue, you are selling the information.

We obviously won't ever agree on this Brian, hunting means different things to different people; world turning round. I wouldn't become a consultant to an outfitter either and show them all or most of my hunting spots.

See, it's not about money to me.
 
"Come on man, you sound like one of those politicians who think that me telling someone where I saw a deer makes it so easy to harvest that deer. Have you ever scouted? Are the bucks you find scouting that easy to just show up and shoot? If they are that easy, then scouting for all should be outlawed. Come on man! I ain't selling a deer in a cage. They're really hard to get, even when you know where they live."

Come on man, don't make it seem like finding a buck in G or H is all that hard to do. What is hard to do is find a 180 or better buck. That is what you are selling, a B&C score and you are selling it to people that are so worried about going home with 160" buck or worse yet an unfilled tag that they are willing to pay you to hunt the critter for them. It is emblematic of everything I think sucks about modern day hunting, if you could even call it that. Earlier you used the example of a guy that waited for 7 days to kill a buck you hunted for him as proof that he is a hunter. Well, if I buy some piece of crap furniture from IKEA and it takes me 7 days to put it together do I get to call myself a woodworker?

I agree with you that what you are selling is no different than some outfitted hunts. However, not all outfitted hunts are like that. What you are selling is as lame as whitetail hunt over a corn flinger, an African bowhunt from a concrete blind over a waterhole or a Sask whitetail hunt over bail of hay. I wouldn't go on any of those hunts and I wouldn't use your service either. The fact that so many want what you are selling is the problem. Whether it is taxed, legal or illegal is irrelevant in my mind. It is just lame.
 

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