Big time baiting... should it be legal? And do you consider it hunting?

"A fair chance"????

Are yall kidding. Yall sound like the antis. They post crap up like if we want to kill animals we should use a knife so it would be "fair".

You use a flashlight to get to your glassing spot. You set up a set of optics from Europe that are 5 times better eyes than your quarry has. You use calls that fool and draw animals to you. You use maps to decide how to make a move on him. You sit on his water sources. Then you take a rifle that can effectively kill an animal at half a mile and blow a hole in him. AND NOW YOU WORRY ABOUT WHAT IS "FAIR" TO AN ANIMAL????????

We don't go hunt to be fair to animals. We kill and slaughter them. These aren't humans. They are beasts.
 
Letshunt so setting up and ambushing the bucks coming in and out of an orchard is ok, but sitting in the orchard isnt? I'm going to set my bait then kill the buck on his way in, will that make it ethically ok?

I understand where you all are coming from but if we want to open up the can of worms of what is "fair" and what isnt we are just getting started....How about hunting bull elk in the middle of the rut with a rifle? How about blue tooth technology in your rangefinder that then puts a dot in your scope to put on the animal from 1000+ yards. My point is why ban something just because you dont agree with it?

I've never killed anything over a bait other than bears. It is work and in most cases is far from easy. You cant compare full time guiding operations to the average Joe packing bait in on their back.
 
There is some holes in your post Bocephus. Hunting by an Orchard is one thing- the Orchard is there. The state is not an Orchard so there is only an extremely small area for that. Now take the fruit from the Orchard and start putting it in many other places- now that is a whole different ballgame.
 
I suppose apples is the new "guides block roads wont allow access to there favorite spots."

Every year you hear stories of how guides cheat but you really do not hear about them stories from first hand knowledge it is always stories from someones brothers brother in laws friend.
Some on this site can only point at behavior of others no matter if it is legal or not.
Stop demeaning others for what they do try debating on merits.
But it is hard to debate on merits when we all use some form of hunting equipment that is just as unethical as baiting.
Lose the optics, lose the expensive camoe, lose the latest and greatest high power cartridge, lose the latest and greatest archery equipment, lose the atv/utv they get hunters into back country that hunters use to hike and pack sometimes for days, lose the latest and greatest light weight back packing equipment and back packing food it allows more hunters to get farther into the back country and for hunters to stay longer in the back country, lose the 500 yard muzleloaders, lose google earth or anyone of the other computer mapping services they allow hunters to learn the topography and lay of the land without ever stepping foot on the land, loose the many different scents and calls that we use to attract bucks and bulls.
After we stop allowing all of the equipment we use to give us hunters an advantage then we call start talking about hunter ethics.
I am not just talking about Utah ALL STATES ALLOW MOST OF THESE ADVANTAGES WHEN HUNTING.
I sound like an ANTI HUNTER.
 
Tristate said:
"A fair chance"????

Are yall kidding. Yall sound like the antis. They post crap up like if we want to kill animals we should use a knife so it would be "fair".

You use a flashlight to get to your glassing spot. You set up a set of optics from Europe that are 5 times better eyes than your quarry has. You use calls that fool and draw animals to you. You use maps to decide how to make a move on him. You sit on his water sources. Then you take a rifle that can effectively kill an animal at half a mile and blow a hole in him. AND NOW YOU WORRY ABOUT WHAT IS "FAIR" TO AN ANIMAL????????

We don't go hunt to be fair to animals. We kill and slaughter them. These aren't humans. They are beasts.
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Wow. It doesn’t take much to set you off ?

It’s is okay to have a different opinion than someone else and still be able to have a civil conversation without belittling or getting bent out of shape. I think I get your point and know where you stand and that’s fine. I just see it different. But I guess that makes me sound anti because I don’t see it the way you do huh? ?
 
Slamdunk is right and I also agree with the post DeerMadness just made.
I feel that baiting is an unfair advantage to those hunters that don’t have the time to spend packing bait in and setting up cameras and checking it all summer long.
Right now I have 23 non-resident points for deer and have been trying to draw the Pauns all these years.
I’ve been there scouting around and checking it out before and during the hunts and I know what’s going on and I don’t like it. I have seen the conflicts between guides and diy hunters.
I feel baiting should be banned. Scopes on muzzleloader should be banned. And cameras during hunting season should be banned.
 
So if you look around at most of the states in America where hunting is prominent you see the laws regarding baiting. It is a joke in Utah that baiting is not banned or regulated per species. Baiting is not hunting and it’s not fair chase hunting. This is not about long range guns and optics. Other states have those as well. Utah is the ONLY state among major western states that does not have it banned or regulated. This should be brought up and addressed.

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Bocephus said:
Slam are you bitter because your Paunsagunt hunt didnt end up in a 220" buck? Did you have a bad experience on your hunt? I'm just curious because most of your venom is being thrown that way. I spend a lot of time on that unit almost every year and I have never had a bad experience like you say happens all the time. If a guy struggles to find a buck better than 160 on that unit I dont think a guides bait pile is the problem.
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Absolutely not!
I passed on a few bucks better than the one I ended up taking on day 9 because I had to get back home.
I had a 17 year hunt, yes I did, but I didn't harvest a 200" deer and I am fine with that because I did not expect to kill one from the beginning to the end.

I have explained several times why I do not agree with baiting big game in numerous threads.

Funny how we are surrounded by states who all have a "no baiting of big game" laws, yet here we are right in the center of it saying "go ahead".
Those laws were put into place in other states for several reasons.
Does that make Utah dumber or smarter for not following suit?

My bitterness towards baiting has absolutely nothing to do with jealousy.
I too can set out several piles of apples and place camera's on them just like many others, but I do not feel it is right and I choose to "hunt", not just show up and kill the best buck that I've see on my laptop over a pile of chum......it's that simple.
 
Letshunt said:
So if you look around at most of the states in America where hunting is prominent you see the laws regarding baiting. It is a joke in Utah that baiting is not banned or regulated per species. Baiting is not hunting and it’s not fair chase hunting. This is not about long range guns and optics. Other states have those as well. Utah is the ONLY state among major western states that does not have it banned or regulated. This should be brought up and addressed.
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Excellent points... Except, here, if you think Utah is behind the game in allowing a practice that every other state has rightfully deemed as unethical it somehow means you're anti-hunting, trying to cram your beliefs on others, has something erroneously to do with common agriculture practices, or involves scopes on muzzleloaders and people shooting their rifle's beyond their personal abilities... smh

In Texas, they shoot over feeders. So what! In Africa they shoot Kudu as they're unloaded from horse trailers. It has nothing to do with what we're talking about here.

It still goes back to the most basic point... If the baiters were truly okay with it, they wouldn't avoid talking about it. Even they know their actions are unsavory.
 
"It still goes back to the most basic point... If the baiters were truly okay with it, they wouldn't avoid talking about it. Even they know their actions are unsavory."

I'm pretty sure I told you I bait and I don't give a flip if you approve.

I hunt for me. I don't hunt to see if self-righteous people approve of my methods or the fact that I hunt at all.

See grizzly this is the reality you get when you put everyone on ignore who doesn't agree with you and you turn into the thumbs up police. You start making foolish claims that are easy to prove untrue.
 
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I’m not big on the baiting, but I don’t think I could honestly say that shooting a deer at 800 yards is any more sporting than shooting one at 40 yards over bait.
Like many things, baiting is just another huge advantage we have over game. But it still doesn’t even come close to rifles shooting accurately at 800 yards. At least a deer coming into bait during an archery hunt has the chance of smelling humans, or seeing or hearing and escape. But 800 yards out, that deer ain’t hearing, ain’t smelling you and not likely to see you.

I think we all know of many huge advantages we have over game that is ruining our opportunity, but it seems everyone is only interested in banning the advantages they don’t take advantage of, and ignore the advantages they do take advantage of.
The long range rifle industry isn’t huge like it is because sportsmen have interest in keeping the sport of hunting a great challenge. It blew my mind how many rifles were at the expo that looked like they should be bolted to the top of a tank in a war zone. People are buying the stuff and hunting with it. A few people baiting with apples is small potatoes.

I will say however, because very few bait in Utah compared to those wanting to shoot 800 yards, banning baiting is much more likely to be banned than 800 yard rifles.

It’s just like my consulting in Wyoming, people argue how it’s the end of hunting and doing so much damage, but yet many of the same dudes are packing 800 yard guns or in the case of Outfitters, chasing the same buck with multiple clients for 3 weeks straight. They won’t recognize their advantages as being a problem but sure pounce on advantages that others may utilize.
 
Well said Founder. I want people to keep hunting the way they enjoy hunting and it seems unnecessary and illogical that other people's choices on how they are going to enjoy their hunt the most, influences the satisfaction other people do or don't get when they hunt.
 
I think for me personally in my opinion this is a Utah issue. And specifically the Paunsagunt premium limited entry Buck Deer hunts. And should probably also apply to the Henry’s as well.
And yes I want to kill one of the very biggest bucks on the unit.
If and when I do draw I really don’t want to deal with baiting And all of the problems that come along with it.
However I will if I have to.
I hope we can get baiting banned by then.
 
buckhorn said:
I think for me personally in my opinion this is a Utah issue. And specifically the Paunsagunt premium limited entry Buck Deer hunts. And should probably also apply to the Henry’s as well.
And yes I want to kill one of the very biggest bucks on the unit.
If and when I do draw I really don’t want to deal with baiting And all of the problems that come along with it.
However I will if I have to.
I hope we can get baiting banned by then.
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There’s probably a whole list of things that could be banned that would make your hunt better.
I’m not against regulation of things, but it seems that the only things that are spoke about when it comes to regulation are things that only a few people utilize, which change almost nothing in the grand scheme of things. The big stuff that the masses enjoy that have the greatest impact are ignored.
I just hate to see opportunity continue to diminish as it has over my lifetime.
 
buckhorn said:
If and when I do draw I really don’t want to deal with baiting And all of the problems that come along with it.
However I will if I have to.
I hope we can get baiting banned by then.
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Bingo.....exactly my argument ?

The GP hunters have to deal with enough, starting with waiting half their life to draw a tag.
 
The limited entry hunts sound like a circus. Maybe I’ll burn my points in Utah’s true hidden gem, the early north slope rifle hunt ?
 
Last year I was down on Pauns scouting in case I ever draw. I had a nice chat with the operator of one of the CWMU’s. While we were chatting he mentioned Baiting Off. I had never heard of that before so I had to ask what that meant. He explained it’s when public hunters set up bait stations just off of his fence boundary to lure bucks out of the CWMU to kill them.
That’s not the kind of hunt I want to be involved in.
I don’t want to have to butt heads with people that think they have exclusive rights to a deer or the area just because they have a bait station set up. In my opinion that’s not what hunting should be about. It’s hard to believe that Utah is allowing this practice to continue.
Is it some sort of outfitter welfare?
 
buckhorn said:
Last year I was down on Pauns scouting in case I ever draw. I had a nice chat with the operator of one of the CWMU’s. While we were chatting he mentioned Baiting Off. I had never heard of that before so I had to ask what that meant. He explained it’s when public hunters set up bait stations just off of his fence boundary to lure bucks out of the CWMU to kill them.
That’s not the kind of hunt I want to be involved in.
I don’t want to have to butt heads with people that think they have exclusive rights to a deer or the area just because they have a bait station set up. In my opinion that’s not what hunting should be about. It’s hard to believe that Utah is allowing this practice to continue.
Is it some sort of outfitter welfare?
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If public hunters also do it, then I’m not sure how it’s some sort of outfitter welfare? Maybe a “sportsmen in general” welfare.
BTW - The Paunsaugunt is a big place and you don’t have to hunt around someone’s bait sight. There are bucks all over.
That shouldn’t stop anyone. How many piles of apples can there really be down there?
 
If baiting is...

1- done by so few that's it's not worth worrying about

2- so easy that any DIY hunter can do it

3- so ineffective that it's still Fair Chase, as the deer aren't unfairly coerced

Then why is Utah the only state that has it? And why are those that do it so hell-bent on being able to continue doing it?

The arguments just don't add up.

We can talk all we want about radios, rifles, scoped muzzleloaders, modern bows, etc...

But, we should be able to talk about baiting on its own merits without people trying to distract from one simple item that already applies to turkeys and waterfowl.
 
I would debate that if you are so bent on the guides finding and killing the biggest deer on the unit then you are wasting your own time and experience. Those guys live on the unit and are killing the top 5% not because they throw apples out, but because they are putting in the time and work finding those bucks. That doesnt mean there aren't plenty of other bucks to hunt however you want to hunt them.

It seems we consistently keep coming back to "the guides kill the biggest bucks and I'm butthurt" my thoughts are quit being butthurt and go find your own bucks to hunt how you want to hunt them. Dont take your ball and go home or ban everything you don't agree with.
 
grizzly said:
If baiting is...

1- done by so few that's it's not worth worrying about

2- so easy that any DIY hunter can do it

3- so ineffective that it's still Fair Chase, as the deer aren't unfairly coerced

Then why is Utah the only state that has it? And why are those that do it so hell-bent on being able to continue doing it?

The arguments just don't add up.

We can talk all we want about radios, rifles, scoped muzzleloaders, modern bows, etc...

But, we should be able to talk about baiting on its own merits without people trying to distract from one simple item that already applies to turkeys and waterfowl.
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Maybe turkeys and waterfowl but not bears. It seems just as unfair to bait the bears. Let's outlaw all baiting.
 
ridgetops said:
Maybe turkeys and waterfowl but not bears. It seems just as unfair to bait the bears. Let's outlaw all baiting.
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I respect your point of view.

I, however, disagree with it based on a standard of commonly accepted practice as baiting bears is common throughout the Rocky Mountain West, whereas baiting deer is nearly universally banned. Thank you for your post though.
 
In 2003 and 2008 I shot deer at 450 yards. Both were with a 7mm mag. I have had better scopes and guns since then and I've never attempted a shot over that distance . I could shoot one at 700 plus but I won't.
 
grizzly said:
I respect your point of view.

I, however, disagree with it based on a standard of commonly accepted practice as baiting bears is common throughout the Rocky Mountain West, whereas baiting deer is nearly universally banned. Thank you for your post though.
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grizzly said:
I respect your point of view.

I, however, disagree with it based on a standard of commonly accepted practice as baiting bears is common throughout the Rocky Mountain West, whereas baiting deer is nearly universally banned. Thank you for your post though.
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It's only common because bears are a predator and many people want them gone or reduced in any way possible but a trophy buck is held at a higher standard. Personally, i don't consider shooting a bear or lion out of a tree 20 or 30 feet away fair Chase hunting but I'm not going to make a case to get it banned.
 
Bocephus said:
I would debate that if you are so bent on the guides finding and killing the biggest deer on the unit then you are wasting your own time and experience. Those guys live on the unit and are killing the top 5% not because they throw apples out, but because they are putting in the time and work finding those bucks. That doesnt mean there aren't plenty of other bucks to hunt however you want to hunt them.

It seems we consistently keep coming back to "the guides kill the biggest bucks and I'm butthurt" my thoughts are quit being butthurt and go find your own bucks to hunt how you want to hunt them. Dont take your ball and go home or ban everything you don't agree with.
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Bo, what you aren't understanding here is how many years I've listened to how guides are pimping our public land game for millions of dollars and I am explaining how easily they are doing it.
This ain't about the Lemon boy's being "good" it's about how they and others have utilized every shortcut they can to "kill" quickly, cash big checks and move on to the next one while with zero regard to the GP hunter that is actually "hunting".
 
ridgetops said:
It's only common because bears are a predator and many people want them gone or reduced in any way possible but a trophy buck is held at a higher standard. Personally, i don't consider shooting a bear or lion out of a tree 20 or 30 feet away fair Chase hunting but I'm not going to make a case to get it banned.
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Hounds for cats and bears, and baiting for bears was banned here in 96. We now are infested with lions and bears and have wolf problems too. I have no desire to hunt lions or bears with hounds, and no desire to bait bears. But losing those things has had a huge negative impact on our deer, elk and moose. If you still have hound hunting, you definitely want to keep it.
If i could snap my fingers and bring back hound hunting for lions, id do it. Its the only effective way to control them. I wouldnt change the bear regs though. You dont need baiting or hounds for bear to the extent you need hounds for cougar. If we still had those options for bear though, despite not hunting that way myself, i sure wouldnt vote to have it banned.
 
""" i don't consider shooting a bear or lion out of a tree 20 or 30 feet away fair Chase hunting but I'm not going to make a case to get it banned."""

Usually a little more to a Lion or Bear Hunt than just the Shot at the Tree!

A Bear/Lion Hunter Could Jump on Here & Say He Doesn't like TARDS Pounding PISSCUTTERS Out the Truck Window Neither!

But Most Hounds-men are Smarter than that!

When We as Hunters Start Arguing & Fighting Amongst Ourselves You're Only Helping the Anti's get what they want!

HELL-F'N-RIGHT!
 
Founder said:
If public hunters also do it, then I’m not sure how it’s some sort of outfitter welfare? Maybe a “sportsmen in general” welfare.
BTW - The Paunsaugunt is a big place and you don’t have to hunt around someone’s bait sight. There are bucks all over.
That shouldn’t stop anyone. How many piles of apples can there really be down there?
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Founder BTW I want one of those 5% of top bucks on that unit. That’s why I have been applying there for 23 years.
I am sure you can relate to that. Do you know that unit is totally blanketed by guides and every big buck is well-known. Just like the strip except the Pauns is worse because of the baiting issue. Yes I have personally hunted and guided on the strip so I know what’s going on.
I don’t know if you spend much time on the Pauns but the BIG deer are NOT everywhere. But wherever they are there will be people surrounding them and there will baiting. All of the guides and many of the diy hunters will have bait stations. Especially for the archery hunt and a lot of the muzzleloaders. The archery hunt is what I had hoped for but now I’m leaning towards the rifle just to not have to deal with the baiting issue. Problem with the rifle hunt is the 5% top end bucks will likely all be dead by then. That’s why I hope the baiting gets banned so it will be more of an even playing field for guides And diy hunters.
 
It seems the big issue people seem to have is the guides baiting. A few years back washington went from no baiting restrictions on deer and elk to a 10 gallon limit. This was put into effect specifically due to guides literally dumping dumptruck loads of apples in north central washington for mule deer. The 10 gallon limit seems to have fixed the issue.
 
You Don't Know TARDS Very Well!

They'll set out 50 10 Gallon Buckets!:D


HuckleberryHound said:
It seems the big issue people seem to have is the guides baiting. A few years back washington went from no baiting restrictions on deer and elk to a 10 gallon limit. This was put into effect specifically due to guides literally dumping dumptruck loads of apples in north central washington for mule deer. The 10 gallon limit seems to have fixed the issue.
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slamdunk said:
Bo, what you aren't understanding here is how many years I've listened to how guides are pimping our public land game for millions of dollars and I am explaining how easily they are doing it.
This ain't about the Lemon boy's being "good" it's about how they and others have utilized every shortcut they can to "kill" quickly, cash big checks and move on to the next one while with zero regard to the GP hunter that is actually "hunting".
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Slam I agree with you there, but banning baiting isn't going to fix that issue. The Expo thread addresses that issue more than banning bait. Pimping the resource comes from SFW you all supported last week. Quit selling/auctioning off tags in the name of conservation at every banquet that is held. If the tags are put into the public draw and not readily available to the guy or gal with the most money wont that help? Then the GP guy can go hunt however they want.
 
elkassassin said:
It'll be more than 5% already Dead buckhorn!
elk
That is very true.
Let me rephrase that. I want one of the top five bucks on that unit actually I want the biggest one.

And back to the baiting subject. While I was down there last year after the archery hunt I was out hiking around and I saw were someone had left a bait station. They also left an empty jug of that stump lick syrupy bait stuff. I could see where the deer had been pawing and licking the ground around where it was dumped.
I hate to see the litter left behind. They carried the jug up the hill full why couldn’t they carry it down empty?

I live in Nevada and I love the way we manage our hunting here. No baiting allowed, no cameras allowed during big game hunting season and no scopes on Muzzleloading hunts.
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Bocephus said:
Slam I agree with you there, but banning baiting isn't going to fix that issue. The Expo thread addresses that issue more than banning bait. Pimping the resource comes from SFW you all supported last week. Quit selling/auctioning off tags in the name of conservation at every banquet that is held. If the tags are put into the public draw and not readily available to the guy or gal with the most money wont that help? Then the GP guy can go hunt however they want.
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I respectfully disagree.
As many know, I am a huge supporter of the MDF and am highly active in my Chapter. We put 3.5 million dollars back on the ground last year just in Utah alone. I guarantee you all the conservation projects being funded by conservation groups would not be taking place if this state relied on funds from the Division alone......not even a fraction of what is being done would even be considered without our dollars generated from members and the Expo you so despise.

Could conservation groups survive without our auction tags?
Yes, I would certainly think so because we do not rely on these for our banquets, but they definitely play a big role.

Would the Lemon boys survive without 25k "killers"?
Sure they would, they would just have to lower prices and guide more common folk.

It's not the SFW or us, the MDF that are hurting your hunting rights, it is over hunting, modern gadgetry and the simple fact that today's hunters and guides are extremely effective at killing.
Then throw in excessive predators, loss of winter ranges in populated urban areas and vehicle collisions to name a few.

It is absolutely absurd to blame the conservation groups handful of tags as the root cause for our deer decline.
 
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What is hurting your deer heard more than anything is mismanagement of the herd . Period. You put the herd first and these childish bickerings will begin to dry up. Baiting ain't your problem.
 
Then why would you care? If it isn't effecting the deer herd negatively and you are still allowed to hunt using the methods you prefer then why would it matter.

That leaves two options. For some reason you illogically believe another person's hunting methods effect your enjoyment of your hunt or you believe you are seaking justice for unfairly treated deer.?
 
Tristate said:
Then why would you care? If it isn't effecting the deer herd negatively and you are still allowed to hunt using the methods you prefer then why would it matter.

That leaves two options. For some reason you illogically believe another person's hunting methods effect your enjoyment of your hunt or you believe you are seaking justice for unfairly treated deer.?
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You are so off the mark it isn't even funny.
 
Then give me a logical reason why you care and try not to use the word "fair". Like I said "Logic".

Everyone has their own idea of "fair" that none of us will agree on so don't waist your time.

I want to here some logic. Not some feelings or emotion. Show me some science, or maybe a public safety angle, or something, that makes it look more than you just not liking something so we have to screw every hunter that does like it.
 
Tristate said:
Then why would you care? If it isn't effecting the deer herd negatively and you are still allowed to hunt using the methods you prefer then why would it matter.

That leaves two options. For some reason you illogically believe another person's hunting methods effect your enjoyment of your hunt or you believe you are seaking justice for unfairly treated deer.?
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Your asinine assessments of why I am not in favor of baiting big game is just your way of badgering me and I am over it.
Send your questions to the hundreds of DWR directors and biologists in the 5 or 6 states surrounding Utah and the thousands of "hunters" who share the same views and support it, maybe they can add some further insight.
In the meantime, you can grease up your feeders and prepare for your "killing" sprees this fall while the rest of us prepare for our "hunts" ?
 
"Your asinine assessments of why I am not in favor of baiting big game is just your way of badgering me and I am over it."

I haven't made any assesments yet because you haven't honestly answered a question yet.

"Send your questions to the hundreds of DWR directors and biologists in the 5 or 6 states surrounding Utah and the thousands of "hunters" who share the same views and support it, maybe they can add some further insight."

That would be great. Maybe they could talk about how most of the rules in that book don't have anything to do with "fairness" but instead are attempts to limit success so they can market more tags than there are deer to be killed. That's the truth no one will talk about and the basis for the mismanagement of your herd. The fact is you have lived an entire life being told baiting isn't "fair" so you parrot it to anyone who asks. There's nothing wrong with you. You just don't know anything different. You were taught this was wrong. I bet you taught your kids this was wrong, and now the state doesn't have to explain why its actually just another way of limiting harvest.


"In the meantime, you can grease up your feeders and prepare for your "killing" sprees this fall while the rest of us prepare for our "hunts" "

And this is what the state agencies AND THE ANTIS want you to say. They want you to look down your nose self-righteously at other hunters and believe like some type of snob that you are better than some other group you don't agree with. Meanwhile none of the real problems have to be addressed by the DWR and our interests weaken a little more because you just ostracized millions of other hunters because you think you are better than them.
 
Slam
Getting in a debate with Tristate is useless. I have never responded to anything he has posted and I never will. He really is a joke and comes off like an arrogant jerk that thinks he is smarter than everyone else. He usually makes no sense at all and I have quit reading his posts because usually they are so far off base it’s a waste of time.
 
"I haven't made any assesments yet because you haven't honestly answered a question yet."

I don't think "honesty" has any real bearing on why you are choosing to single me out on this issue, it's extremely apparent that you wouldn't accept anyone's answer even if it came from a head biologist because it doesn't fit your agenda.
I have explained my views on this subject in numerous threads aside from this one and if you would have been following along, perhaps you'd accept my stance as is and let it go......just as you expect me to accept yours.
I don't badger you on why you think baiting is fine in your eyes, have I?

"That would be great. Maybe they could talk about how most of the rules in that book don't have anything to do with "fairness" but instead are attempts to limit success so they can market more tags than there are deer to be killed. That's the truth no one will talk about and the basis for the mismanagement of your herd."

This comment proves my point above about "honesty".

"There's nothing wrong with you. You just don't know anything different. You were taught this was wrong. I bet you taught your kids this was wrong, and now the state doesn't have to explain why its actually just another way of limiting harvest."

Yet another baseless assessment or assumption from you about me.
Neither my father, my uncle nor my grandfather whom raised me in the hunting world ever commented about baiting, it just wasn't done in my family, nor was it ever discussed.
Having said that, perhaps the way you were raised that baiting is perfectly fine.
So be it if so, perhaps you were raised to not know any better or differently "there's nothing wrong with you".

"And this is what the state agencies AND THE ANTIS want you to say. They want you to look down your nose self-righteously at other hunters and believe like some type of snob that you are better than some other group you don't agree with. Meanwhile none of the real problems have to be addressed by the DWR and our interests weaken a little more because you just ostracized millions of other hunters because you think you are better than them."

News flash....
Anti hunters are already attacking our rights as hunters and want wolves to manage our herds versus me or you.
You don't think killing deer over piles of apples dumped in the desert as a non native food source fuels their narrative?
You're sadly mistaken, and your hypocrisy knows no bounds.
 
Hey Slam, you know if you'd use the Reply function instead of copying and pasting Tri's stuff then it blocks it out for me and I don't have to see it?

I LOVE the Ignore function!!! Help a guy out! ?

I get such a kick out of the guys that pretend this is some anti-hunter wet dream that hunters want to police their own ethics and regulations. If that opinion was extended to it's logical end and a few guys wanted to spotlight deer, we'd all have to be okay with it because otherwise we'd be trying to force our beliefs on them!

It's perfectly okay for hunters to put ethics into law as everybody has different ethics and without it there would be guys poisoning wildlife, spotlighting, hunting year-round, over-harvest, shooting from aircraft, etc... as somebody out there is going to be okay with all that and more. That's why the majority decides what is fair and ethical and puts it into regulations. It's also the reason we have RACs and the WB set up as we do (preferably without so much special-interest interference, though).
 
grizzly said:
Hey Slam, you know if you'd use the Reply function instead of copying and pasting Tri's stuff then it blocks it out for me and I don't have to see it?

I LOVE the Ignore function!!! Help a guy out! ?

I get such a kick out of the guys that pretend this is some anti-hunter wet dream that hunters want to police their own ethics and regulations. If that opinion was extended to it's logical end and a few guys wanted to spotlight deer, we'd all have to be okay with it because otherwise we'd be trying to force our beliefs on them!

It's perfectly okay for hunters to put ethics into law as everybody has different ethics and without it there would be guys poisoning wildlife, spotlighting, hunting year-round, over-harvest, shooting from aircraft, etc... as somebody out there is going to be okay with all that and more. That's why the majority decides what is fair and ethical and puts it into regulations.
Click to expand...
Lol Griz, I know about the reply function, I was simply copying what he did to my post ?
 
That guy needs to sell his bow and get a rifle. Bad shot, bad penetration wounding a buck. Shoots another, arrow bounces off, shoots another quartering to, once agsin bad penetration but gets lucky, doesnt recover until hours later sfter coyotes rip it apart.... then posts this crap online for the whole world to see? Hes proud of this mess?
 
Last edited:
Will be interesting where this posting ends up - I remember years ago there was a posting on ATV's being in areas prohibited and the conversations got so heated that I believe the posting was finally pulled down - it was the first time I heard the term :tune up" After all the discussion we still see ATV's in restricted areas. Over years things change with new technology and with it creates diverse opinions on what is ethical don't see that changing.
 
Because it’s normal that 5 big bucks in the middle of the day come out and feed on the natural food source of desert fuji apples. Unless you are disabled or have serious health issues, you shouldn’t be allowed to hunt over bait. I don’t know you tristate, but please for the love of everything I hope you never get put on a wildlife board that makes any decisions on big game animals. You may be a good person and do a lot of good for people around you but you don’t listen to anyone, and you take phrases out of context to try and emphasize your points that have nothing to do with the main topic. I hope that it’s get banned soon and you will have your “evidence” that less big deer will be killed on these units where “baiting” happens so much.

6C4349EF-527B-43D5-88CC-E8251EDFF12F.jpeg
 
Yup!

And There are Still LAW BREAKIN Bittcchhes Earning Themselves a Free Tune-Up!




Aceman said:
Will be interesting where this posting ends up - I remember years ago there was a posting on ATV's being in areas prohibited and the conversations got so heated that I believe the posting was finally pulled down - it was the first time I heard the term :tune up" After all the discussion we still see ATV's in restricted areas. Over years things change with new technology and with it creates diverse opinions on what is ethical don't see that changing.
Click to expand...
 
grizzly said:
www.sltrib.com

Baiting big game is legal in Utah — for now. But is it right?

Imagine ambling through Utah’s national forests and coming across piles of apples inexplicably scattered on the ground.
www.sltrib.com www.sltrib.com
Click to expand...
Awesome article grizzly...So multiple guides and wildlife biologists say that it could cause major issues like the spreading of a major disease. But let’s ignore it because it could hurt the bottom line for some guides. And people who don’t want to leave a ground blind.
 
Perfectly sporting.....

Doesn't look like baiting works very good at all.....

I love the arguments that we are chipping away at our sport if we attack another hunters method of take.

I have posed this here before and got zero response but here goes again.

Why not sell a tag to every hunter who wants to hunt in Utah then open the season the 3rd weekend in August. Have a quota for each herd or unit in the state. Once the quota for a unit fills it is closed for the year. The tags are for one deer in any area of the state. So if the quota fills on the Henries you go elsewhere next.

Here is the best part.... EVERY HUNTER gets to choose how he hunts. Not the state,not the Antis and NOT OTHER HUNTERS, because this is what we are trying to avoid, right?

So rifle, bow , muzzleloader, bait, daytime at 1500 yards with a rifle, 200 yards with a bow or 600 with a muzzleloader with a 20 power scope.

From an airplane or your vehicle.

At night with a spotlight, why not?

Pathetic...

Bill
 
"I don't think "honesty" has any real bearing on why you are choosing to single me out on this issue, it's extremely apparent that you wouldn't accept anyone's answer even if it came from a head biologist because it doesn't fit your agenda."

Most biologists I talk to about it don't care one way or the other. They look at it in terms of alive or dead. They don't study or comment on ethics. Maybe that's the problem here since I was a wildlife biologist.

"I have explained my views on this subject in numerous threads aside from this one and if you would have been following along, perhaps you'd accept my stance as is and let it go......just as you expect me to accept yours.
I don't badger you on why you think baiting is fine in your eyes, have I?"

You have tried to insult people who do bait. Don't act like you have been something righteous here. Can you accept my thoughts on the subject and let it go? You haven't yet.

"This comment proves my point above about "honesty"."

Nope

"There's nothing wrong with you. You just don't know anything different. You were taught this was wrong. I bet you taught your kids this was wrong, and now the state doesn't have to explain why its actually just another way of limiting harvest."

"Yet another baseless assessment or assumption from you about me.
Neither my father, my uncle nor my grandfather whom raised me in the hunting world ever commented about baiting, it just wasn't done in my family, nor was it ever discussed.
Having said that, perhaps the way you were raised that baiting is perfectly fine.
So be it if so, perhaps you were raised to not know any better or differently "there's nothing wrong with you"."

I was raised it isn't my job to control other people. It isn't my job to be self-righteous and tell people I know "better" LIKE YOU JUST STATED. I can admit that I may have made an incorrect assumption but I am trying to give you the benefit of the doubt.

"News flash....
Anti hunters are already attacking our rights as hunters and want wolves to manage our herds versus me or you.
You don't think killing deer over piles of apples dumped in the desert as a non native food source fuels their narrative?
You're sadly mistaken, and your hypocrisy knows no bounds."

I'm not talking about whether anti-hunters have no ammunition with out this. They can make ammunition against us. What I am talking about is people like YOU dividing our forces against them. Who wants to go battle and lobby with Slamdunk to preserve our way of life when he was the jerk who tells kids they aren't hunters and lobbies for more regulation against his fellow hunters????? Your reading comprehension definitely knows bounds.
 
"Perfectly sporting....."

Why care. Go make your hunt the most sporting hunt ever. Let somebody else's hunt be the hunt they want.

Bill you are being melodramatic. Some things are issues of public safety and those are real issues that have to be addressed.
 
Show me one thing on my list that isn't done somewhere else for other animals and legally....

Then point out the thing on my list that the "public" has been injured or killed from..

Bill
 
Tri, you are one funny guy.
Just as I and so many others have pointed out....you aren't ever satisfied with anyone's opinion when it doesn't fit inside yours.
You dissect comments in your narcissistic manner simply because you enjoy it.
I am done with you because I have MUCH better things to do.
Good day Sir ?
 
"Tri, you are one funny guy.
Just as I and so many others have pointed out....you aren't ever satisfied with anyone's opinion when it doesn't fit inside yours.
You dissect comments in your narcissistic manner simply because you enjoy it.
I am done with you because I have MUCH better things to do.
Good day Sir "


Again you have failed to read. I LIKE THAT YOU HAVE AN OPINION. I like that it influences the way you hunt. I like that you are a hunter. And it doesn't bother me in the least bit that you try and use nickel words like narcissism and hypocrite to describe me.

I simply don't like it when people make it a point to control other people.
 
"Then point out the thing on my list that the "public" has been injured or killed from.. "

This is sarcasm, right? I mean you can't really be serious.
 
People get killed every year shooting out of helicopters. I've personally known three people killed in choppers and fixed wing aircraft shooting. I've known a lot of people who have accidentally shot animals they weren't wanting to shoot under artificial light. These become public safety issues. I'm not saying they should legislate against it but I can't say the people who discuss it are being irrational.
 
I googled it....found one guy who said his injury came from a helicopter hunter. Admittedly I didnt read the article but I assume he was shot. Didnt find one instance of death from helicopter hunters......the first search page did reveal a few articles about hunters gored by the deer they shot.

The fact that you know three guys who have been killed in this manner should make you want to advocate legislation to stop it. No?

So then the one thing YOU SAY ( I wont call you a liar) is a risk to the public on my list (yet you say shouldnt be stopped), is that the only thing on my plan you would throw out?

Hell i would bet my house more deaths and injuries were from falls from a tree stand.

So besides that are you good with my management plan?

Bill
 
Letshunt said:
So if you look around at most of the states in America where hunting is prominent you see the laws regarding baiting. It is a joke in Utah that baiting is not banned or regulated per species. Baiting is not hunting and it’s not fair chase hunting. This is not about long range guns and optics. Other states have those as well. Utah is the ONLY state among major western states that does not have it banned or regulated. This should be brought up and addressed.
Click to expand...

Actually, Oregon is just like Utah. Big Game baiting isn't even mentioned or considered an issue. But I guess it isn't considered a "major" western state.
 
I have no problem with your harvest strategy as long as the game is managed properly. I don't want to hunt using many of those methods but I don't want to legislate against them.
 
Fair enough. I did forget to add there would be a statewide quota in addition to regions.

In place of airplane I meant aircraft. Helicopters, powered parachutes included.

In addition to spotlights, night vision equipment.

Doesn't matter how they die, right?

Anyone else?

Bill
 
NO. It doesn't matter how they die to me. I still get to hunt how I like to hunt, you still get to hunt how you like to hunt, and they get to do whatever. It's called freedom.
 
Anyone else agree?

What about the other pro baiting guys?

Or the guys who say we undermine hunters by limiting how the other guy hunts? Or even questioning how another hunts.

Is anyone else cool with the proposal?

Bill
 
grizzly said:
You wanna bet...
View attachment 2102
View attachment 2103
Click to expand...
Being born on third base and hitting a triple are two different things. Yes money can buy great tags 20 spotters and if they feel great for spending the money they earned or inherit who gives a $hit. I’ve never been jealous of other hunters and the money they spend to have success. If your legal to bait in Utah quit bitching on the internet and lobby for your fish and game to change it.
 
In my opinion, its not how they are dying, its that they are. The big ones, the small ones, and everything in between. Its been said before, but we as hunters have just gotten too good at what we do. With all the technology, guns, bows, cameras, bait, # of spotters etc.. etc.. etc.. These animals don't have a chance any more. If you sent (100) hunters from 1990 into the woods for a week, what would that success percentage be compared to (100) hunters from 2019?
 
OpeningDay said:
In my opinion, its not how they are dying, its that they are. The big ones, the small ones, and everything in between. Its been said before, but we as hunters have just gotten too good at what we do. With all the technology, guns, bows, cameras, bait, # of spotters etc.. etc.. etc.. These animals don't have a chance any more. If you sent (100) hunters from 1990 into the woods for a week, what would that success percentage be compared to (100) hunters from 2019?
Click to expand...


Sounds like a faulty harvest model and mismanagement. Not an issue of what's fair or not fair. What you are describing is a very very easy fix.
 
OpeningDay said:
In my opinion, its not how they are dying, its that they are. The big ones, the small ones, and everything in between. Its been said before, but we as hunters have just gotten too good at what we do. With all the technology, guns, bows, cameras, bait, # of spotters etc.. etc.. etc.. These animals don't have a chance any more. If you sent (100) hunters from 1990 into the woods for a week, what would that success percentage be compared to (100) hunters from 2019?
Click to expand...
 
Tristate said:
Sounds like a faulty harvest model and mismanagement. Not an issue of what's fair or not fair. What you are describing is a very very easy fix.
Click to expand...
That is what I am saying. We are exploiting a resource that is already on the decline. My thoughts are we either need to heavily cut tags until the resource can rebound if thats even possible. Or, seriously handicap our success rates. Not beat a dead horse because we all already know these thing. There are many many factors to the decline. The problem is, nobody is willing to handicap their equipment nor is willing to give up their opportunity. We also cannot make this an all archery game. People want to hunt with a gun. We are fighting a very steep uphill battle.
 
Couple of excellent posts there OpeningDay. Once you get honest with people then you start finding solutions and you are definitely on the right track. The truth is a harvest management model that depends on hunter failure to relieve pressure on the resource but still provide opportunity is a proven failure. Most state agencies have practiced this form of harvest management for decades and it gets a little worse every year.

Here is the truth. There isn't a biologist, scientist, or statistician that can accurately predict failure of hunters. They have never been able to quantify human ingenuity. Therefore their harvest models fail time and time again. They come up with new laws to increase failure and market it to us as what is "fair" to the animal.

The reality is we will still have the same problems until our state wildlife agencies start treating each deer tag as a dead deer and not an opportunity to hunt. Once each tag is recognized as a dead deer then most of the other arguments become pointless. People can go collect their dead deer in September Or November. They can kill it with a bow or a 1000 yard rifle. They can bait it or stalk it. Doesn't matter. Either way the deer is dead and the tag is filled and the management objects become predictable.
 
You guys remember the buck Kato that was killed on the Heaton. He was killed off apples. The heaton kills a lot of bucks that way. Which the heaton is on the pauns. I believe in the Tines Up video it shows him munching on apples. And I was even told that by one of the guys who used to work for them. Deer that are around apples eat that stuff up like it's crack. Not saying it's right or wrong but a lot of Pauns. bucks die at the helm of apples. I threw some out on the WF one time they didn't last a week. I never hunted off them but they found em quick.
 
Tristate said:
Couple of excellent posts there OpeningDay. Once you get honest with people then you start finding solutions and you are definitely on the right track. The truth is a harvest management model that depends on hunter failure to relieve pressure on the resource but still provide opportunity is a proven failure. Most state agencies have practiced this form of harvest management for decades and it gets a little worse every year.

Here is the truth. There isn't a biologist, scientist, or statistician that can accurately predict failure of hunters. They have never been able to quantify human ingenuity. Therefore their harvest models fail time and time again. They come up with new laws to increase failure and market it to us as what is "fair" to the animal.

The reality is we will still have the same problems until our state wildlife agencies start treating each deer tag as a dead deer and not an opportunity to hunt. Once each tag is recognized as a dead deer then most of the other arguments become pointless. People can go collect their dead deer in September Or November. They can kill it with a bow or a 1000 yard rifle. They can bait it or stalk it. Doesn't matter. Either way the deer is dead and the tag is filled and the management objects become predictable.
Click to expand...
So I guess the question is..... If we look at every tag as a dead buck/bull, how many tags would be cut? What if you put say 100 tags on a unit this year, but only 75 tag out. Do you have to put 125 in that unit the following year to keep balance?
 
OpeningDay said:
In my opinion, its not how they are dying, its that they are. The big ones, the small ones, and everything in between. Its been said before, but we as hunters have just gotten too good at what we do. With all the technology, guns, bows, cameras, bait, # of spotters etc.. etc.. etc.. These animals don't have a chance any more. If you sent (100) hunters from 1990 into the woods for a week, what would that success percentage be compared to (100) hunters from 2019?
Click to expand...
Screenshot_20200225-061408_Instagram.jpg

Today's hunter ?
 
OpeningDay said:
So I guess the question is..... If we look at every tag as a dead buck/bull, how many tags would be cut? What if you put say 100 tags on a unit this year, but only 75 tag out. Do you have to put 125 in that unit the following year to keep balance?
Click to expand...

No. You might but you might not. Depends on a lot of factors.
 
What it means to the hunter is. If they want 100 deer killed they give out 100 tags. So if a unit had a 10 year average of 25% success then they were giving 400 tags to kill the 100 deer now they will give 100 tags.

Right?

Opportunity will suffer but because every tag is a dead deer you will be guaranteed to get one.....

Right?

Bill
 
Tri, tell me about a longterm management plan that has truly relied on hunter failure and has failed.

I get many states give lousy hunt dates etc. But these can be offset in some years by weather. Not truly a failure IMO. But I get the thinking.

I dont know of any management plan that has taken serious steps in offering opportunity to most yet limiting equipment etc. to cut hunter success by a large amount. That's what is being suggested.

I think it could be successful. But nobody is gonna like it. There would certainly be growing pains.

Bill
 
huntindad4 said:
Tri, tell me about a longterm management plan that has truly relied on hunter failure and has failed.

I get many states give lousy hunt dates etc. But these can be offset in some years by weather. Not truly a failure IMO. But I get the thinking.

I dont know of any management plan that has taken serious steps in offering opportunity to most yet limiting equipment etc. to cut hunter success by a large amount. That's what is being suggested.

I think it could be successful. But nobody is gonna like it. There would certainly be growing pains.

Bill
Click to expand...

I agree that few will like it at first. Dang near every western state's harvest management plan for deer and elk is magnifying their shortfalls in management. Every single state is limiting harvest to claim opportunity isn't decreasing.
 
huntindad4 said:
What it means to the hunter is. If they want 100 deer killed they give out 100 tags. So if a unit had a 10 year average of 25% success then they were giving 400 tags to kill the 100 deer now they will give 100 tags.

Right?

Opportunity will suffer but because every tag is a dead deer you will be guaranteed to get one.....

Right?

Bill
Click to expand...

Nothing is a guarantee but kill percentage would likely be very high.
 

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