Back to On-Line Applications...

Well your odds to draw a tag will be getting a lot worse than they are now if they don't charge the upfront fees. Be careful what you wish for..... you may have just added 2-3 years to drawing a tag.
 
Yea, I hear you Boskee. Guess it will depend on what hunts are applied for though. I could be wrong, but I thought that there were some statics soon after they pulled the on-line option a few years ago that showed that there was not a material decrease or increase in the applications for premium units based on the change back to manual process. I don't really apply for the hard to get trophy tags though, so I don't think it will impact me that much in the long run. I just want to get out and hunt for a few days year year.... ;-)

Looking at the world around us and where technology is going, I can't imagine that anyone would expect the manual process to stay around forever. Fortunately or unfortunately, depending on your point of view, I think it's inevitable.....

S.

:)
 
Alright! Now I can put me, my four kids, my wife and her mother in for tags. Normally it would be just me and one of the boys. Not now, every one in the family will apply. I might even start putting in for bighorn and buffalo again now that I wont have to put the money up front. Good days are here again...
 
Good luck to you & your family on the tags! I'll be putting myself and three kids in, just like always...... ;-)

Did you guys get tags this year?

S.

:)
 
I have to agree w the use of online apps, but they need to charge full price for the tags/licenses. If I remember correctly there was a lot of talk about the treehuggers applying for tags just to reduce what actual hunters could recieve.
 
Good point stealth_archer! I heard some of those rumors too, but I don't think I ever saw substantiated evidence from anyone. Though I suppose evidence of that would be hard to come by......

I agree with you though! If folks like Boskee and outback are concerned about the volume of potential applicants simply because of the up-front financial commitment necessary (or lack of it...), forcing the 'pay up front' rule on-line would be a good idea to help remedy that issue. I would not have a problem paying up front at all (like we do now.....). I simply like the convenience of being able to apply on-line.

Like it or not folks, technology is here to stay! ;-)

S.

:)
 
Here are the number of applicants for bighorn sheep
2000 -- 8,471
2001 -- 8,767
2002 -- 13,013
2003 -- 16,049
2004 -- 18,927
2005 -- 11,266
2006 -- 16,332
2007 -- 10,930
2008 -- 9,017
2009 -- 8,500
2010 -- 8,206

This tells me that online application significantly affect draw odds.
 
Bottom line is that AZGFD will sell more applications and nonresident licenses. Big money for nothing to AZGFD.... Especially the nonresident licesses used just to apply. I totally see the reason, like the convienence, but don't like more competition. Can't have it all... Anyone want an across the board price raise on everything to keep fewer applicants in the pool?
 
You get yourself and 2 kids putting in for out of state $600 tag, and it cant be done by some of us. I like the online application, at least my boys will have a chance to draw now.
 
Missedagain, those are interesting numbers. I'm curious what caused the up & down swings over the years. Anyone have the info regarding when they went to on-line, then back to old-school?? BIG dip from 04 to 05, then another dip from 06 to 07...... Two ups & downs. Anyone remember what events cooralted with those years?? I know what drove the latest (that's what we're talking about). But I wasn't aware of any event in 05......

Elmerfudd, I agree with you. Looks like easy money from the non-residents for the AZ G&F.

PCpython, YES! Like I said, I think they should definitely charge up front. Whether on-line or old-school! ;-)

swivelhead, why not?? ;-)

Missedagain, based on your statistics, unfortunately the Bighorn sheep scenario only affects between 8000-20,000 hunters. VERY much the minority, according to the AZ G&F and hunters in general. It may suck for those few that want those tags, but the masses (looking at the overall general numbers that are published) are not impacted that greatly by this decision, even though those that are passionate about sheep are impacted greatly.

Seems like some are concerned with having to put-out money up front. Some are concerned with draw odds. G&F can't please everyone, and at the end of the day I think it's about money, technology, politics, hunters, passion, BS, everything......

Good luck to ALL of us!

S.

:)
 
I admit I like the convenience of online apps and I like to know that my application was filled out correctly. However, I'll gladly trade the convenience and a little piece of mind for less applicants and a manual application system. To think that this will not affect odds is silly to me. People will not just apply for premium hunts they will apply for all hunts.

It seems to me Arizona has something in our banking laws that does not allow us to charge up front for something not purchased. Been a long time since I read or heard about it but that was the argument G&f made why they couldn't charge the full amount first. Other states do not have the law and that is why they can get away with it. Maybe we need a law maker on our side who will sponsor a bill that will remedy this? I knew this would come back to haunt us again.

Until then......... PLEASE no on-line applications.
 
Putting the money up front is not that big of a deal. You are putting it on a credit card for a couple of months. It's not like you were writing a check that would be deducted immediately from your account.

If you get drawn you can make payments if you want. If not it is credited back to your account.
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-12-11 AT 06:35AM (MST)[p]With the post bailout 20%ish rates, 2-3 months is pushing $100 for a nonsresident deer and sheep application. Add in the elk/lope draw and charge up front almost doubles the nonresident cost to apply. If the department wants more money for nothing nonresident applications, charge on draw will help get more nonresident applications. The interest makes no money for the department and discourages applicants through higher cost of application. What you think they are going to do?
 
LAST EDITED ON Aug-12-11 AT 09:12AM (MST)[p]huntaz, I do agree that it will likely impact the odds. Depending on what species and particular hunt, it could be a BIG impact. Looking at the Bighorn stats listed above, there is clearly a large correlation. I'm just saying that for the majority of the 'average' hunts, I doubt that the change in odds will be too statistically significant. Premium hunts are another story, but unfortunately the vast majority of hunters don't even get into that ring to play, so it is not of much consequence to them. Also, you make the comment that maybe there could be a law maker who could 'remedy' this? Remedy what? It's technology...... I have a hard time thinking that many lawmakers would take-on a cause simply to make it more difficult for folks to apply for hunts.

Creed, I agree.

Fudd, I'm not sure I'm following what you're saying. I think at the end of the day though, whether they charge up front or not, the on-line system is coming back. Inevitable.....

S.

:)
 
>Here are the number of applicants
>for bighorn sheep
>2000 -- 8,471
>2001 -- 8,767
>2002 -- 13,013
>2003 -- 16,049
>2004 -- 18,927
>2005 -- 11,266
>2006 -- 16,332
>2007 -- 10,930
>2008 -- 9,017
>2009 -- 8,500
>2010 -- 8,206
>
>This tells me that online application
>significantly affect draw odds.

In 2007, another factor also came into play besides the loss of the on-line app process. 2007 was the year that the fees were increased. Resident sheep permits fees increased from $200 to $272. This likely had a big factor in applicant numbers.

Also, why the drop from 19k to 11k in 2005? Or the increase from 11k to 16k in 2006? as Stan noted below.


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Gee buckhunter it seems that you may have been sleeping in math class a bit. Do you think it's easier to draw a tag with 10,000 applicants or with 5000(NOT GREAT EITHER WAY), but there's 5000 less people involved. The bonus points really only significantly increase your odds when you get to the max point pool because the only number they use is your lowest number of your 8 bonus points once they get past the max point round.

Let's see they increased tags and they're still losing applicants... maybe it has something to do with not getting drawn or poor hunting or a poor quality experience where they decide it's not worth hunting any longer. Adding more people into the mix isn't going to shorten draw times or fix the other issues mentioned.

You have to make changes to make hunting more desirable to people so they want to go or at least shorten the time between drawing a tag. People aren't going to keep investing $$$ when they don't get to go hunting and that's really the root of the issue. We have to devise a way to allow more folks to be able to participate in order to keep the interest alive by spreading the activity over a wider user base in some manner. The system needs to be changed in some manner in order to allow more individuals to be able to particpate. It's obvious that the sytems not working by the declining numbers and decreased interest. I'm not buying into the cost thing alone because MANY of the same people that are dropping out here do go out of state and hunt.

Many of those people have new trucks sitting in their driveways but have chosen to spend their discretionary income in a different manner and in a different state. I'll wager that archery elk tag application numbers have declined since they moved the hunt forward for the same reason. Not on just a hunt specific view but overall numbers since the best hunts will still have the most demand. I'll bet the statistics show this and I damn well know that the meat processors numbers definately will support this conclusion. Quality dropped so I'll bet interest did to.

I'd even guess that this was a factor in reducing quality for more opportunity of other hunt types and application numbers. It's not just about economic impact overall, hunt experience plays a big part in getting hunters to reapply. If they don't have a good time and see game the overall experience isn't as rewarding for them and they are less likely to reapply. Survey or not the more opportunity (tags per hunt) as opposed to quality card is rearing it's ugly head in a big way!!

It's a combination of factors and it's a user driven as the reasons why we choose to hunt any unit. The one thing I know for certain is that you will reapply for a hunt where you have a decent chance of filling a tag as opposed to a hunt where little to no opportunity presented itself or sitting at home year after year where you don't draw any tags while the guy down the street goes year after year and hunts for multiple species. Like it or not we're getting a lot closer to Nevada than we are Colorado and it's time our department woke up and realized their public support, jobs and funding are drying up as surely as our waterholes. The old guard managed things in a more conservative manner for a reason.....because it worked and had for decades upon decades (droughts included). Our new commission can alter this path but it won't be a popular stance, yet one that ultimately could insure the survival of hunting for future generations. Change is never easy but look at Kaibab things are improving there since they decided to listen to sportsmen as opposed to the budget!
 
Stanley,
My point is that charging up front will significantly increase application costs to nonresidents. Well over $100 in interest charges, maybe close to the cost of the nonresident license in just interest to the charge card company if a nonresident does antelope, elk, deer and sheep. And the ability to apply for all makes buying the nonresident license just to apply seem not so bad. So charge upon draw of the tag will get more nonresident licenses and applications sold. I feel that alone is why AZGFD will not charge up front.

But yes, online, charge tag upon draw is a tradeoff. More money to AZGFD (without really giving anything), convience and knowing you will not be rejected or the mail lost vs worse draw odds....
 
My hypothesis: With the online app service coming back, more people will apply for tags which means more people wont get drawn. This leads to more people complaining about not getting tags which THEN will lead to either less people applying in future years or g&f raising tag numbers which will ruin the quality of the hunts whose quality are already on the decline as it is. thats just my $.02
 
Well Boskee, I think you are looking through different glasses than Buckhunter. I would assume by his post that Buckhunter is a non res like myself. We apply in Arizona for a reason- YOUR PREMIUM HUNTS. We buy the license and apply year in and year out. We ##### and moan amongst ourselves about this system (UP TO 10% of the tags- NOT set aside for non res like most states).Numbers do not matter to us. We understand that we have to have a lot of bonus points to have a chance at the hunts we want ( I have 17 elk and 16 deer). Your draw system allows for the first 2 hunt choices to be considered when your app is pulled. If I was a res like you and wanted to hunt year in and year out I would swing for the fence on my first choice and then I would have a fallback hunt that I thought I could draw.

Your post is a little confusing. Are you concerned about hunting opportunities or sound management? They are 2 different issues. Sound management wins out with this crowd. Unfortunatley you cant't have both unless the pool of hunters goes way down. So to answer the question- yes, I love online applications, but make people pay up front. That will help keep the numbers down.
 
Stanley:
We need a law maker to change our Az banking/credit card laws. Az G&F has stated that due to our state laws they can not charge someone for something not purchased. After all, they are making you pay for something that you didn't necessarily purchase. Other states do not have the same restrictions and that is why they can make people pay at time of application, even if they don't draw a tag.

Call me selfish or whatever but I tend to believe hunters who want to hunt will save, work an extra job, plan and do whatever to apply for their hunts. People who are less serious and are not as passionate about hunting will drop out. When we have such a finite resource, I do not want to make it easier for the people who would just as soon play a round of golf at a fancy golf course as go hunting. Is this who we are trying to recruit? They do nothing for hunting. You either love it or don't. Pretty simple to me. Passionate hunters will do whatever they have to do to hunt.

If you can't fill out a paper application then you have bigger issues than whether or not we have an on-line system.
 
No Boskee I went fishing instead of crappy old math class.Thank you BRUIN4L I am a non-resi in AZ and your right many of us non-residents only want one thing from AZ a few of their premium hunts! Not just AZ but from all the western states.Ive allready spent my first round of max points in AZ and working on round two. I love on -line apps as it makes my application season a little easier. I will build the points no matter how many folks join me and will eventually draw my tags,( with the exception of sheep tags which still require a lot of luck even with max points). So bring on the on -line apps in Arizona and in the mean time there are plenty of hunts in other states. BH1
 
All you nonresidents who have been fixed on "premium" units, especially for elk, need to wake up and see the light. There are plenty of units you can draw with very few points every couple years. And they hold elk that are just as big as the "premium" units everbody wants to wait 15 years for.

I would love for paper apps to stay. They will now extend the deadline every draw because the system will crash on the last day like it always did before.
 
I see no "proof" that the paper applications decrease the numbers??? Sure the numbers are going down (for sheep at least and I hear elk too) but why? You are only guessing as to why unless the applicants that are not applying are asked why they are dropping out. Could it be paper applications? Yup Could it be the aging hunter population causing people to drop out? Yup Could it be that for many the economy has hit the skids the past three years? Yup Could it be something else? Yup Could it be a combination of all of the above? Yup So unless someone shows me the "proof" as in a reliable study you are just "guessing". You might be right but you could also be wrong. The number of applicants for moose permits here in Maine is half of what it once was. We have an on-line process but DIDN'T when peak was hit so ???????????
 
If Az has laws preventing the G&F from collecting the tag fees up front, how come I have to send a check in with my application now? I do think that with the change to the tag transfer rule (the parent, grandparent or great-grandparent who drew the tag but transfered it not having to be present during the hunt), on-line apps without up-front tag fees will make it less cost-prohibitive for a person to have elgible relatives who may not even hunt put in for the sole purpose of transfering it to their kid.
 
Online is CC or debit card only, the law is a credit card law... paper apps are check or money order only, no CC's... and some will still apply that way, sending the money in with the app.

That's the difference in the two systems and legal requirements.

Online apps will increase Granny Betty applying and decrease odds across the board, that's proven in the bonus point bulge per level in the statistics per species during the online years... look it up.

This helps no hunter getting a tag, only the odd chance of filling an app out incorrect. Decreases the odds in even cow elk hunts, but especially the premium hunts, and effects NRs the most.... and is a money maker for G&F.

Kent
 
I like the online process from a convenience standpoint and that the g&f are joining the modern era again. I wonder if it affect the odds that much or just for the premium hunts.I haven't had that much trouble at least having one big game tag in my pocket most years. Now you are dreaming if you think its going to happen every year, but as a resident I don't think the non premium hunts are that hard to draw.
 
"This helps no hunter getting a tag, only the odd chance of filling an app out incorrect."

I disagree with first part of this statement. Hunters who cannot afford to upfront cash will be helped by online CC apps. Hunters can easily enter the draw, as it should be in my opinion.

Game & Fish will likely sell lots of extra licenses and collect more app fee's. Good for them and our wildlife.
 
If you can't afford it in Feb, how will you afford it in April? You must have the money in the account at draw or you will lose your tag and all BPs. Whether it is real money or credit limit, there is no free lunch, though many believe there is.

Kent
 
Ahh.... I got it huntaz! Yes, if in fact, that is truly what is holding-up the department from collecting up front then I agree that might be a worthy fight.

At the end of the day, I personally don't care if they collect up front or not. I'll pay if I draw a tag, and I get my money back if not (assuming they collect up front). I just like the convenience of being able to apply on line.

Whether paper or electronic, good luck to all of you in the next draw!!

S.

:)
 
All I can say is some of you guys are application Nazis, haha. I don't care if you change the rules to require that applications be submitted by carrier pigeons, I will see to it that my application makes it. You aren't going to shake me :)
 

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