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Anti-SFW Organization

Birdman,

Your buddy Don also helped. Why not ask him the same question? Why not ask him what has happened to the money after Tony left? Simple questions and simple answers please. Can we ask you to do that and report back to MM without the usual SFW rhetoric?

I love on their web site how they list donating $600,000 plus to Utah wildlife? Isn't that the money they were required by law to give back? If so, then that not a donation. Or can I consider my taxes a donation? All the smoke and mirrors stuff is getting old. Tell it straight and people might start to get behind them. Lie and divert and we stay status quo.
 
You are incorrect in assuming that birdman. I traveled to EVERY rac twice and the wildlife board as the General Manager of the MDF and committed to a "significant" amount of the money raised going to Utahs wildlife. My definition of "significant" was/is at least 50%.

The profits were to be divided up as follows at MY recommendation.
40% revenue of tags to SFW
30% revenue of tags to MDF
30% revenue of tags to FNAWS

This was based on MDF and FNAWS got the booth revenue because we were national groups and sold the booths and SFW was not a national group and had very little ability to sell booths.

All 3 groups agreed to this.
Also to my knowledge FNAWS NEVER put 1 CENT of their 30% into Utahs wildlife.

And MDF and SFW have use the VAST majority for things other than Utahs wildlife.

So the promise was made but once I was no longer involved with the expo my opinion is the greed set in and the money went other places and most of it is un accounted for.

Hence this is why I have not been to the expo in 4 years or put in for the expo tags. My actions are louder than my words.

I understand why guys still go and put in for the welfare permits and I dont blame them. Guys just want to hunt. But for me it is a principle issue.

Nothing more or nothing less.

Let me know if you need anymore clarification on the tags or the expo.





Tony Abbott
 
This post alone would indicate to people that YOU are now saying there is no accountablity for those 200 tags just like everyone is saying:

Birdman (82 posts)
Feb-17-12, 11:27 AM (MST)
99. "RE: Anti-SFW Organization"
Tony, You helped creat the 200 tag rape. You never put in any accountablility for the money for those tags? Why didn't you.


What is it Bro---Yes or no or just more BS!
 
400elk

You touched on the problem I have with SFW in UT and AZ. Everyone here has been commenting on what should be done for the wildlife and habitat, and whether quality or quantity should be the issue as if SFW would ever do anything to improve the situation. SFW exists to generate revenue for SFW. SFW spends as little as possible on wildlife, but just enough to keep sucking in the uneducated and fleecing them for dollars.

According to the 2007 tax returns for SFW, which is the latest year I've benn able to find, SFW took in $3,348,790. They spent $3,068,613 and of the total money spent, $83,687 went to big game habitat improvement, $30,000 went to a grouse study, $334,365 went to habitat projects and $1,914 went to turkey feeding for a total of $449,966 spent in a manner somewhat related to wildlife. The other $2.6 million was spent on management fees, consulting fees, Expo costs and tag purchases. If you want to understand the priorities of a company or an individual, you need only to look where they spend their money. SFW spends 14% of their revenues on wildlife and 86% on funding raising and paying their cronies. In AZ, its even worse. 95% of the funds raised by SFW in AZ went to one individual to prepare their monthly e-newsletter and maintain the website. Zero went to wildlife. I haven't loked into MT, WY,ID and AK, but I'm sure its much the same.

Anyone that thinks SFW exists for the benefit of wildlife is just refusing to face the facts or is the recipient of their dirty money. How much good could've been done if $3 million in donations were given to an organization that actually spent the money on projects? In my opinion, SFW, and any other similar organization, sucks the vast majority of discretionary funds available to benefit wildlife out of the market and squanders it on their own greed. Guys like this need to be exposed and drummed out of the wildlife community.
 
Sage here the problem, in Ut there's TOO many people on the payroll that have influence. The guides, the politicians, outfitters, wildlife board etc. They have greased ALL the wheels on the right people. If your pro sfw your getting money indirectly from there wealth tags or sent you or family member hunting or fishing on the publics wildlifes dime.
 
Michael

Not sure if you were talking to me or Birdman on this post.

BUt if was me I did put in accountability for the convention tag revenue. But I am not there anymore so I know have ZERO say in how it is used.

Does that answer you question?

Tony Abbott
 
Dang Sagebrush...... After that information there's nothing but "Crickets" chirping now............
 
>LS338---After reading your comments, I honestly
>have to ask why you
>are doing that legwork as
>a lowly foot soldier for
>the organization when you speak
>so negatively in your post
>about DP/SFW?
>
>U400E---That's because Birdman is obviously not
>seeing the forest for the
>trees, which is very similar
>to a lot of the
>DP sheeples, LOL!

Topgun, I ask myself that very question everyday sfw was great in the beginning but then things/people changed and imo greed set in
In the beginning people like ryon fauts/ troy justesen didnt exist because there were groups of people that took on the responsibility of putting on the banquets for free back then we used to pack a house and make 100,000 in a night And we could put that money directly on the ground where it belongs now we are barely able to cover costs and make payroll All we are doing is going through the motions and for what sfw board members bills.

[email protected]
[email protected]


'IT AINT EASY BEING ME'
 
If you read the numbers in SFW's tax report that sage just provided and you still defend SFW, you are part of the problem.
 
So after all the whinning. What now ???? I would like to hear what comes next, solutions or just more banging on a keyboard.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-12 AT 04:13PM (MST)[p]>So after all the whinning.
>What now ???? I
>would like to hear what
>comes next, solutions or just
>more banging on a keyboard.
>

Bluegoat,

Thanks for directing us back to where I intended this thread to go in the first place.

I've been researching and exchanging some e-mails with a few people, including Tye (TREE). His org seems to be the only one I can find that is actually trying to battle the situation via working with legislators.

http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org

Still researching. What he has described sounds good. Although I am not sure if the strategy is aggressive enough. It takes time just to figure out what legislators are bought and paid for. Takes time to see who you can work with. These are skills that DP has obviously mastered. I don't know how realistic it is to depend on any one central org to help stomp out tag theft attempts in all states. Seems that would be heavily dependent on residents of those states. That is, of course, why SFW sets up their tag theft rings in each state individially independent of each other on paper.

Anyway UWC may be all we have right now. Worth everyone who cares to check out.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-17-12 AT 05:28PM (MST)[p]fishon---That post of mine was to the Birdman. He seems to have flown the coop after the dismal figures of what SFW returned for on-the-ground habitat work was posted!!! As was stated in another post, anyone who tries to defend SFW after reading those figures is definitely part of the overall DP/SFW problem!!!
 
Topgun, Guess I am part of the problem. Do not think that those figures are complete. But then it does no good to try to talk to a follower of bad information. Just like the SFWaz. Ill bet even fishon knows it has nothing to do with the Utah group. But then you guys know everything so it does me no good to talk to you. But then for a guy from a state that is loaded with wolves and has a Fish and Game dept that issued a few tags when the season starts. What can you expect. O by the way HAVE A GREAT EVENING.
 
UWC is a great bunch of guys. I've gotten involved with them this year myself, and the board members are all straight shooters that give generously of their own time and resources. It's true that they aren't quite the powerhouse that SFW is right now, but they are growing fast. Membership is free right now, so get signed up! And donate $ if you can, I did. The more voices they have backing them up the more legislators will listen. And within a few short years they will have the membership and funding to really make a big difference. Heck, they are already making a big difference! They have done more for our deer herds this year with their meager hard-earned budget than SFW has with it's millions of dollars worth of tag-scam earnings.
 
I live in AZ and watch the legislative agenda I close as I can. Nice thing in our state is almost every senate and house committee meeting is captured on video and accessible via internet. So my comments are what I think you should do in UT.

You need to get behind an organization that is willing to take the time to lobby against SFW. Find the legislators that support SFW and get them voted out. Find candidates that are sympathetic to your cause and put the boots on the ground to get them elected. Basically use the same strategy SFW used to line their pockets. Then you need to start a fund raising drive to put the dollars where you need them. Maybe the money goes directly to DWR or maybe you hire wildlife managers to put together a plan to hand over to the DWR. You hunters need to stay involved to provide the necessary oversight and blow the whistle if the direction starts to change. It will take some time and a lot of hard work, but it will be worth it in the end. If you guys can kill all the critters in the dragon nest in UT maybe we can reclaim our hunting heritage throughout the west.

Meanwhile, down here in AZ we will keep the SFW lookalikes in check until we can get them dismantled. I hope our brothers in MT, ID, WY and AK will do the same.
 
Well Zim, I have to admit that this cause you are promoting is better than back in the day when you were enamored with George Taulman and US Outfitters. But I'm still skeptical of your motives. While I don't like the idea of SFW tag grabs I know that YOUR primary goal is always to screw the resident and give to the nonresident.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-12 AT 09:42AM (MST)[p]
Birdman (86 posts)
Feb-17-12, 05:53 PM (MST)
112. "RE: Anti-SFW Organization"
Topgun, Guess I am part of the problem. Do not think that those figures are complete. But then it does no good to try to talk to a follower of bad information. Just like the SFWaz. Ill bet even fishon knows it has nothing to do with the Utah group. But then you guys know everything so it does me no good to talk to you. But then for a guy from a state that is loaded with wolves and has a Fish and Game dept that issued a few tags when the season starts. What can you expect. O by the way HAVE A GREAT EVENING.


You definitely got that right when you say you are part of the problem. You just keep up this crap of saying I'm following bad information and now you are saying that tax return SFW submitted was not complete, LOL! After 5 years do you not think if it wasn't complete that the IRS wouldn't have jumped all over that return? We aren't talking about Utah here Bro, so quit trying to bring up Utah and NM in your posts. If you haven't read the letter AZSFW sent out yesterday admitting their culpability in the tag grab scheme, you had better sit down and read it closely, as well as the sad excuse of a letter their partner AZSFWC just came out with! You really should quit because the more you post the worse you look with all the incriminating evidence being put on the net to debunk you and your SFW supporters. I'm sure you are for wildlife just like the rest of us, but please wake up and smell the coffee brother!!! I know it's difficult to admit when you are wrong about something, but it's about time you think hard and admit that everything that has been introduced these past couple days about your leaders are overwhelmingly negative and getting worse as each day goes by.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-12 AT 10:00AM (MST)[p]>Well Zim, I have to admit
>that this cause you are
>promoting is better than back
>in the day when you
>were enamored with George Taulman
>and US Outfitters. But I'm
>still skeptical of your motives.
>While I don't like the
>idea of SFW tag grabs
>I know that YOUR primary
>goal is always to screw
>the resident and give to
>the nonresident.

Excuse me??? This past year here in Illinois I hunted public land deer for 21 days. Each day I drove in one of the parking areas i was greeted by no less than 75% nonresident vehicle plates. Do you have 75% nonresident hunters in Nevada? How would you feel if you applied for states with a 2 1/2% nonresident quota after you bought into their system for 10 years before they screwed you? If you want to disagree fine. I personally Wish every state had 10% unguided NR tags for public lands at no more than 10X resident prices, including my own state of current residence. I am also 100% against outfitter welfare of any kind am a huge proponent of the north American model for wildlife conservation. That is all. In the last 10 years I've watched SFW destroy everything I believe in and am very pleased others are finally seeing the light. Any other questions?

BTW - the public I hunted here wasnt even federal it was state owned I paid for. I did take action by meeting with the property manager, writing a letter with recommendations, and turning in a poacher nobody else would. Probably won't change anything but I tried.
 
Topgun, Well done. You are right that the two groups are the same group. They work together. They are just not affiliated with DPs group. Nice try thou.
Zim, I bet you do have 75% none residence hunting when you pull into a parking area. Ill. has many more deer there and are trying to thin them out. Over Populated. Whitetail deer are almost like rabbits. From what I understand, some states allow you to shoot a doe every day of the hunt. Many have liberal hunts on does. In Kansas a NR hunter buys a tag and for $25 a tag more can buy up to 6 doe tags. Out west not all states have whitetail. Therefore the hunting is limited. Not all residents can get a deer permit. That is why non res. are limited. I Hope that you both have a great day.

PS. I am glad that you took the time to turn in a poacher. They all should be turned in.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-12 AT 10:39AM (MST)[p]NV don't call out zim for his motives out in the open.....cause he will send you a scathing PM, insulting you for ever stealing a breath of his precious air......how dare someone that is as dumb as you take away from Zim's life!!!
 
>Stillhunter,
>
>most of what you have to
>say is correct, in principle.
> the reality of it
>is that there is no
>possible way to have high
>quality every 'couple years' or
>so draw. the general
>season hunters will still want
>to have a piece of
>the quality pie and in
>most cases will invariably migrate
>to the draw units making
>them harder and harder to
>obtain......while still wanting to hunt
>general season.
>
>the reality of it right now
>is that Utah is in
>no shape to offer any
>more tags. The deer
>herd has seen a consistent
>drop for nearly half a
>decade, for as of now
>inexplicable reasons. the tags
>have consistently followed out of
>necessity.
>
>the numbers that the division comes
>up with are fundamentaly flawed
>if not out right lies.
> in order for any
>change to happen it will
>only occur with drastic changes
>within the state organization, meaning
>people need to be fired
>over this. In any real
>business, if the current organization
>showed a 5 year continual
>drop, let alone fifty they
>would be removed and the
>entire business would need massive
>overhaul......
>
>like others before me i refuse
>to hunt this state any
>more, i can't afford to
>do it, for the experience
>that is given. This
>was happening long before SFW/BGF/UWC/RMEF/etc
>etc. it is sad
>really, a management scheme born
>out of fear is doomed
>to failure just as an
>organinzation that appears as a
>result of the same fear
>is as well......
>
>Perfect principles are impossible to achieve
>with imperfect individuals furthering them......
>
>
>it may seem quite pessimistic, but
>it is reality, hunting in
>utah as opposed to other
>states including those ravaged by
>wolves is quite sad.
>
>
littlebeaver.jpg


I hear what you are saying berrysblaster. I have a deep and passionate love of hunting mule deer, and will try with all that is whithin me to help keep them viable for future generations to do the same. I try to keep optimism as high as I can even in the face of dismal failure, for once that is gone it becomes a road nearly impossible to travel. Hopefully, the western states will find a way to bring the mule deer back to a sustainable level that can benefit all types of hunters.

www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
Brokeback, I think it's pretty obvious to all you are an outfitter benefitting from auction tag clients or have something to gain financially from SFW. Those are the only people in favor of them any more. And it's a waste of breath arguing with you because you'll always follow the $.
 
Geez Birdman, you just don't get it! Nowhere did I use the word "afflitated"! The whole argument here is that DP helped these other organizations get started, even though they run with their own separate charters and chapters. They may not be "affiliated", as you put it, because on paper they have done a good job of creating separate identities. Who got BGF started with Ryan Benson running it and if your answer is anyone other than Don Peay, you really need to wake up? Please read both letters in their entirety that AZSFW and AZSFWC just came out with this week if you haven't already. These groups are closely tied together with a number of their members being on both Boards of Directors, even though paperwork establishing their charters may not actually affiliate them with each other or with UTSFW. They may not be an affiliate with UTSFW, but they openly espouse in their letters the exact things that UTSFW and DP started and they are certainly not following anything close to the NMA of Conservation.
 
Broken_beaver, I am very familiar with Zimbo. Back in 04 when USO was trying to screw the residents of western states out of tags Zim was a huge proponent. Since then he moved from Indiana, didn't shoot a buffalo in Utah, became world reknowned in Illinois, became a real lady's man with the mail order brides and hooked his rickshaw to this anti SFW wagon.

How IS George anyway Zim?
 
Zim, i have not nor will ever be a proponent of SFW.....nor will i ever be a fan of blowhards like you who go off half cocked, and only jump into things when you have something to gain......

I'll be absolutely clear about this, I am firmly convinced that every single sportsmens organization within the state of UT is a crock.....anyone who trusts the DNR numbers are up in the night hence the reason i'm not all hopped up on UWC. SFW hasn't got anything effective done in a long time and all have consistently shown that they are incapable or indifferent about doing anything effective for the deer herd.....RMEF is more concerned about building 48 million dollar facilities than doing much for the elk herd......MDF well SFW is all that needs to be said bout that right???

all are born to fail.....i know thats a pretty bleak out look but we have two decades of failure to back up the idea.....
 
>Broken_beaver, I am very familiar with
>Zimbo. Back in 04 when
>USO was trying to screw
>the residents of western states
>out of tags Zim was
>a huge proponent. Since then
>he moved from Indiana, didn't
>shoot a buffalo in Utah,
>became world reknowned in Illinois,
>became a real lady's man
>with the mail order brides
>and hooked his rickshaw to
>this anti SFW wagon.
>
>How IS George anyway Zim?



LMFAO!!!!!!!!!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-12 AT 11:49AM (MST)[p]You sure paint a lousy picture of someone that you wouldn't know if he walked by you on the street! Furthermore, unless you're a friggin clairvoyant how in the he** do you know what motive(s)Zim or I have in this fight? The fact that ANY tags are being taken and used for private gain should alarm anyone and your characterization of Zim or anyone else that is trying to end this debacle, even if it may have some positive repercussions down the road for NRs is really pretty sorry IMHO!
 
This should piss off a few people. Our money has been well spent on wildlife projects. This was taken from a GRAMA that shows where SFW has spent some of the money.

Per division rule R657-55 the purpose of the program is ?for purposes of generating revenue to fund wildlife conservation activities and attracting a regional or national wildlife convention to Utah"

There was an audit done in 2010. Here is where some of the money went. You be the judge if it fits the intended purpose. Certainly some good causes on the list, but wildilife conservation? Keep in mind of the 3.4 million raised in the first four years only 800k was even accounted for by expo organizers in the audit. In fairness and for the sake of full disclosure about 500k of the 3.4 million did seem to go to good wildlife projects but they are vague in description.

$117,671 - Wolf Litigation/ Washington DC Policy
$21,000 - Donation to Cancer Patients
$20,000 - Orem Pritchett/Tatloil Gift
$14,000 - Jessica Clark Scholarship Fund
$14,000 - Edwards-Beaver Property
$11,000 - Kevin Conway Scholarship Fund
$10,000 - Chance Phelps Endowment Fund
$5,450 - Wyoming/Pinedale
$5,000 - SFW Wyoming
$5,000 - St George Livestock
$5,000 - Eye Donation
$5,000 - Deputy Josie Greathouse
$3,000 - Sean Pearson Cancer

These projects will help our mule deer herds!!!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-12 AT 12:35PM (MST)[p]Tikka, you numbnut SFW lovers were very intent on hating any nonresidents and totally making up the USO bs. My only issue was 10% minimum NR unguided in each state. Period. If you want to criticize me for that we can agree to disagree. Anything else was pure fantasy the mm thugs made up. I also remember when it later came out that hired USO for 3 hunts and tried to sweep that under the rug! Been fishin with George lately?

Birdbrain, please don't pretend to be an expert in a state a you've likely never hunted. In 3 weeks I saw a total of one mature buck on il public. I have no problem with nrs coming here to shoot does but buck tags for public should be regulated like western states. Our public is grossly over hunted and certainly not overpopulated!
 
birdman -

If these figures are incomplete then its because Sportsmen For Habitat dba Sportsmen for Fish and Wildlife didn't report them accurately to the IRS.

5192001.jpg
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-12
>AT 12:35?PM (MST)
>
>Tikka, you numbnut SFW lovers were
>very intent on hating any
>nonresidents and totally making up
>the USO bs. My
>only issue was 10% minimum
>NR unguided in each state.
> Period. If you
>want to criticize me for
>that we can agree to
>disagree. Anything else was pure
>fantasy the mm thugs made
>up. I also remember
>when it later came out
>that hired USO for 3
>hunts and tried to sweep
>that under the rug!
>Been fishin with George lately?
>
>

Totally making up the USO bs? Zimnochio, your nose is growing.

10% NR is what Nevada has always had but it wasn't good enough for you.
Hired USO for 3 hunts? Now you're smoking opium. And YOU are the one with ties to George. I recall something about a hunt and dinner.

I am in complete agreement about SFW. Don't need them or want them in MY state. But your motives have NOTHING to do with how they spend their money or where it comes from. You are all about Zim ad only Zim getting tags.
 
I am not a supporter of SFW, I am not happy about the expo tags and their being no accountability for them, I think the leaders of SFW are making too much money off of a public resource. I think SFW caters to the rich and not the average Joe. That being said what the hell does a nonresident from MI, who has stated that he never intends to ever hunt in Utah, and one from IL that is just pissed that he can't draw a NR tag, have to do with anything SFW (Utah) related. Can either of you vote in this state? Have either of you actually worked on wildlife related projects in this state? Have either of you attended a RAC meeting to voice your concern over wildlife management in Utah?
Now come back and jump all over me, but really neither one of you actually has a dog in this fight as I see it.
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-12
>AT 12:35?PM (MST)
>
>Tikka, you numbnut SFW lovers were
>very intent on hating any
>nonresidents and totally making up
>the USO bs. My
>only issue was 10% minimum
>NR unguided in each state.
> Period. If you
>want to criticize me for
>that we can agree to
>disagree. Anything else was pure
>fantasy the mm thugs made
>up. I also remember
>when it later came out
>that hired USO for 3
>hunts and tried to sweep
>that under the rug!
>Been fishin with George lately?
>
>
>Birdbrain, please don't pretend to be
>an expert in a state
>a you've likely never hunted.
> In 3 weeks I
>saw a total of one
>mature buck on il public.
> I have no problem
>with nrs coming here to
>shoot does but buck tags
>for public should be regulated
>like western states. Our
>public is grossly over hunted
>and certainly not overpopulated!


Zim

My LMFAO comment had nothing to do with SFW,it had everything to do with NVBighorn's truth he wrote in his post.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-12 AT 02:17PM (MST)[p]Hey dipwad! That's because you must be blind!!! Would you rather have us on your side fighting for your rights or have us fight for PETA? What a jackass post when all of us should be fighting for our collective rights no matter where we live! You, Sir, with your attitude is probably where the term UTARD came from, LOL!
 
Frankly, the future of our hunting heritage is in the hands of all hunters, regardless of their choice of where to live. If we as hunters see the wolf "baying at the door" of a place we don't call home at the time, we are certainly obligated to do what we can to send it away!(I know, wolf might be a bad choice for a metaphor ;-) ). I for one welcome any and all passionate and caring hunters who are willing to voice their concerns for our wildlife, regardless of where they live.




www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
It shows one's true intelligence that when confronted by someone else's oppinion they resort to name calling.
Is SFW an anti hunting organization? Their organization actually promotes hunting doesn't it? Don't they auction off hunting tags? Who's tags do they use to raise money at the Expo in SALT LAKE CITY, UTAH? How many tags from MI or IL are in the auction pool.
If SFW were an anti hunting group of any kind I would hope to get support from hunters everywhere, no matter where they live to voice concern, but since they are a Utah organization, using Utah tags to fund their organization I see no relevance to someone that never intends to hunt here and that it really doesn't affect.
JMHO, and you know what they say about oppinions.
I don't see a "wolf baying at the door" over how a wildlife organization in Utah is being run.
 
I haven't resorted to calling anyone names, not sure why you would say that to me, but so be it. Since this thread is about SFW, I chose to respond in kind. SFW is not just a Utah org, it is spreading across the west. As far as using Utah tags to "just" fund the Utah chapter, I think you need to look again at where the money it raises here goes...

I've made my point before about SFW and other organizations, no point in reiterating at this point. What I will say is they have/are dividing hunters with a philosophy that goes against the NAWCM, by both it's methods and implementations of same. ANY organization that promotes hunting is subject to review and criticism or praise by all hunters, especially when they expand said philosophies across several states. If I lived in another state, I certainly would look twice at any org that might sooner or later expand to where I lived, and had a reputation of acts and philosophies I did not agree with. But hey, that's just MY opinion, and yeah, I know what they say about them.




www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
Stillhunterman
The name calling reference was for the post before yours by Topgun.
Its nice to have an intelligent discussion without name calling. I think every resident in Utah should educate themselves on the SFW organization and what they actually do for wildlife in Utah, then make their own decision on whether they are good for you and your interests or bad for you. I know they have done some good things for wildlife in our state, I just don't like the directors getting rich from our resources.
I'm sorry if I don't see any relevance from complaints from nonresidents that never intend to ever hunt in our state but that is my oppinion, and no one with a different arguement has swayed me from that oppinion yet.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-18-12 AT 05:40PM (MST)[p]

Perry---He was talking to me in that last post for calling him a dipwad, not you! Anybody that comes on here and chastizes me for being so passionate about the main thing in my life, regardless of where I live, is lucky I didn't call him a lot worse! His post was absolutely ridiculous when Zim and I are trying to help fight against what I would characterize as the scourge of the west right now. I could give a rip if he never gets another tag with his attitude, but you would think the way almost all the Utah folks on this website detest the SFW that anyone pitching in from anywhere to help the cause would be welcome. Go figure!!! What really amazes me is that I still think the quickest and easiset way to get rid of that bunch is to simply get everyone together and not buy into that EXPO. There is no way that just auctioning those tags off to the wealthy like they do would keep them afloat. I suggest that your group start a grassroots attempt over the upcoming months to get as many people as possible to do just that and I would bet that 2013 would be the last EXPO held by DP and his UTSFW! The only other way that I see to take care of the problem is through the DWR and/or legislative process and that may be impossible or take a long time to acomplish when a much simpler method could be successful. Just my opinion and only that, but the main thing I'm interested in is that SFW does not exploit any more states like they currently are. The longer that the Utah EXPO succeeds in taking in millions of hunters dollars, the more chance there is for them to take their crap out to other states and I don't want to see that happen!

Edit: I see he filled you in on who he was referring to while I was typing this post. The one thing he fails to realize is that he brought that on with a more than stupid post calling me and Zim out for trying to help! Obviously with his continuing thoughtless comments he is incapable of having the intelligent conversation he mentioned since anyone that differs with him gets a scolding!!!
 
GUN you are correct, it would take an act of God to have Utah's
Legislature get the dollar signs out of their eyes long enough to realize the scam they support with these 200 tags.

It may be a better tactic to approach the RAC / WB and get the rule changed so that 100% of these funds MUST go to the Division.

Let SFW and MDF pay for the Expo without using these tags to cover overhead.





2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Right now if someone were to say i'm putting an organization together to get people fired, i'd be on board in a second......

the sad reality is the all of the failing organizations and problems have been born as a result of the failure of the UT DNR.

SFW was born because of the fear generated by the Divisions inability to fix a declining muledeer herd among other things. UWC was born at least partially out of the same fear, coupled with the fear fostered by the influence of SFW.

You really want to fix it?? go right to the root of the problem. The State. IMHO and i'm sorry to dax and others who read this but every biologist in the state should be fired right now. if we take away the failing aspect and replace it with a private entity like the horribly bankrupt Workers comp was a few years back, accountability will return.

Simple solution, privatize DNR, hold them accountable and run it like a business if they fail they are removed and held accountable by law for the money.

littlebeaver.jpg
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-19-12 AT 08:29AM (MST)[p]>I'm sorry if I don't see
>any relevance from complaints from
>nonresidents that never intend to
>ever hunt in our state
>but that is my oppinion,
>and no one with a
>different arguement has swayed me
>from that oppinion yet.

Apexmtnman,
For the record, I think you'll find most of the nonresidents posting here likely have hunted Utah previously, and have been the source of 90% of the UTDOW funding for decades. Personally I've hunted there twice, and will likely return this year to burn my 15 deer points. After that, I will likely dump all my other points and get out due to horribly regressing NR draw odds since the SFW takeover. However, I intend to remain a UWC member and a vocal opponent to SFW due to my principals, and belief in the North American Model for Wildlife Conservation which SFW is destroying. I owe it to my kids and other honest sportsmen.

This year I am celebrating my 40th year of honest working and paying taxes, and have yet to collect a single unemployment, workman's comp, nor welfare check. That includes 20 years of hard physical labor framing homes. As a result, it outrages me when I see parasites like Don Peay and his cronies do business the way they do, and I intend to do anything I can to stop them, even from a distance. If that means just supporting UWC, and educating residents of the other SFW franchised states, so be it.
 
but how much more could be done - peavy sfw gets 70% cut of the money - 30% to wildlife funding which gets split into smaller allotments !


Show me the money - SFW is ripping you off and you are thanking them!??
 
Zim
License sales makeup about 46 percent of Utah DWR's annual income and if you think non resident sales make up 90 percent of that you're crazier than I thought you were. You're just pissed that you can't draw a tag, plain and simple, and you're taking it out on SFW because you think they are taking too many nonres tags out of the pool. Lets be honest here, living in IL you could care less about Utah and the expo tags you're just pissed that you can't draw a tag. Well join the club, I've got 12 elk points and I can't draw a tag either, even as a resident. And sorry to piss on Topguns parade but I am a lifetime license holder in Utah so I'll get a deer tag every year till I die. Oh by the way I have an Aunt that lives in IL and a few cousins that deer hunt there also but I don't ever intend to hunt there so I don't intend on bad mouthing any local wildlife orgs there either FYI.
 
A lot of information and accusations have been thrown around recently regarding SFW. I am not a member of this organization and am simply attempting to educate myself a little more on the how the tag convention / raffle is managed. I really am just looking for the facts on this. Is the following basic outline truth or fiction?

1. UTDOW issues a certain allotment of tags to SFW for a raffle

2. SFW raffles this allotment of tags

3. SFW then keeps in its possession the monies that were generated from these raffles / tags

4. SFW controls how and where the money is spent without any true UTDOW oversight (no pre-approved allocation of funds? / no true documented costs for funds generated by the sale of Utah?s tags?)

Is this the basic procedure or not regarding the Utah tag convention / raffle?
 
BattleBorn, you have it right. There is no oversight whatsoever on the convention tags. SFW is not the only organization involved, they just get most of the credit for it. MDF is another major player.

Conservation tags are different. Those are the ones where the DWR gets back 30%, the org keeps 10%, and 60% gets used on "approved" projects.
 
NVBighorn - Thank you for the link. The laws / regulations in place for the Utah conservation tags seem to have good intentions, at least on the surface. I question why the 60% of public funds allotted for actual on the ground work is retained by the conservation group and not a UTDOW controlled conservation fund. I also wonder, when I see the words "upon request" (R657-41-9-5-ix), if there is any true application of the words taking place by UTDOW. Also, seems to me it should not be "requested" but mandatory when it comes to public funds. As a native resident of Nevada I have an interest in not seeing my home state repeat mistakes made by other states, no matter how well intended they may have been.

El Matador - So if I understand you correctly, the tags raffled at the convention (200 tags?) are not "conservation tags" governed by R657-41-9? I find that hard to believe but if so......WOW!
 
El matador is correct. At one time I had a link to that information but can't find it now.

I am only observing this discussion (except for harassing Zim) because I know that SFW has its eyes on Nevada. Currently any organizations that market tags for Nevada (so called Governors tags) do not keep ANY of the proceeds. That's how I'd like to see it stay.
 
The 60% must be used in two years. Also the money can only be used when both the DWR and the conservation group agree upon its use. Neither group can use the money with out the others ok.
 
I agree with you 100% NVBighorn, this is why I am attempting to become a little more educated on what has taken place in Utah. I realize NDOW / NV is not perfect, but I see no reason why they should not be in control of our public wildlife conservation funds. I have nothing against "conservation groups", I am a member of a couple of them, but putting public funds (generated by public tags / resources) directly in their hands is not a road I care to see traveled.
 
What????? The DWR can't use its own money without the conservation groups approval??? You gotta be $hittin me.

You Utah boys need to make some serious changes to things. I'm starting to agree with beav. Fire them all and start over.
 
When I see things like this, and see odds posted on the convention tags, it feels almost to me like you have another DOW in the mix. Again, I am sure there were some good intentions upon its conception, but what I see is.........SFWDOW
 
NV and Battleborn
Its a slippery slope boys be careful, be very careful. I think
SFW started out with good intentions but like anything, money and power took over and the leaders got greedy and forgot about the little people that initially gave them the power. I think unaccountability is a very big reason things got out of hand the way they have. Accountability and full disclosure should have been written into their bylaws or it should have been no deal as far as I'm concerned, it didn't happen so thats why we're in the mess we're in.
 
I am going to read thru that again when I have more time later tonight, but at a glance I didn't see anything in there tying it to R657-41. Looked like basic guidelines on how to hold a public raffle. I just can't fathom that there is absolutely zero regulation on the funds generated from these tags. Even if they are required to adhere to R657-41, it is a concept that I would never support in Nevada. Please tell me that they at least have to adhere to R657-41?
 
Battle, things in Utah will never change. Ya see it's an automatic
That every person that votes will circle the candidate with the "R"
Next to their name. Peayday has all of them convinced that "He Speaks
For Utah's Sporting Community" "And this is what we all want".

As long as the current LEADERSHIP exists at the Ut. DWR we will
Get nowhere. Styler has to go, Karpowitz has to go as well as most
Of the Wildlife Board. The voters in Utah simply won't elect someone
That will call B. S. on SFW and all of the other tag whores in the state.

Beav wildlife management in Utah is privatized and is crony
Capitalism at its finest. These groups tout conservative ideals
All the while being subsidized by over 500 of Utah's tags.









2010 TOTALS
P.E.T.A. = 0 HUNTERS GONE
UTAH WILDLIFE BOARD = 13,000 HUNTERS GONE
 
Ww Utah is not privatized it is run by the government with heavy private influence..... Probably the worst combo imaginable....

When I say privatize it I mean bring in a neutral independent contractor who understands the ideas of customer base, inventory, and profit margin.....WW workers comp was in a similar state of disarray and the state put it out for bid to private companies a close family friend took it over and went from around a hundred million dollars in the hole to one hundred andfifty million on the black within five years....,

littlebeaver.jpg
 
Good advice Shot!

Beav - I am a small government is good government kind of guy but I disagree with the privatization of wildlife management. Privatize Insurance yes, but wildlife management no. When you start using corporate words like ?customer base?, ?inventory?, and ?profit margin? in regards to wildlife conservation and management???..well it sounds like a lot more tag auctions and raffles to me. Someone will have to pay for all those big bonuses!
 
battle, that is absolutely true but any real business owner who is accountable must realize that 1000 people with 100 dollars is more than one guy with 10000 dollars.

think of that in terms of ratio, ok the one man has 100 times the money of the others but collectively they are far greater than the others.

if it is privatized and the the only option is to be successful and build a future, then there is really only one viable option.........

i understand that, what this sounds like is what we have now but the truth is what we have now is failing, so it can't be run this way. tag auctions, expo's and biology aren't the way to run a successful business.....

ultimately what i'm suggesting here is accountability, there is no accountability at the root of the problem, the biologists of the DNR. SFW is not root of the problem, they are a product of the fear of sportsmen brought on by the DNR.

as far as i'm aware, no one checks on the numbers that are submitted by the flights of the UDWR. those numbers prompt the proposals that are presented to the RAC's and WB, we just trust blindly that they are doing their jobs and that the numbers are right........

50 YEARS OF DECLINING HERDS SUGGEST THAT THEY AREN'T!!!!!!!!!!!!!

littlebeaver.jpg
 
The way that the DNR counts numbers of animals is terrible. Just have to look at the Fish Lake area. The area is set up to handle between 6,500 to 7,000 elk. The biologist for the DNR in the past years has suggested cow tags. We all know what happened last year. Three cow elk hunts were drawn. The first went off but in the middle of the second, the biologist noticed that the elk numbers were not there. They ask people to turn in there tags on the second hunt and cancelled the third. Now our numbers on the fish Lake is around 4,000 to 4,500 elk. The DWR has decided we do not need more elk there now. Truth is the cattlemen do not want more elk there. The feed is there for elk, but the DWR does not want the elk numbers increased. There is other areas in the state that are simular. Our biologists are not on top of things. They need to be accountable.
 
SFW isn't the same deal as it was back in it's first days.Money changes people.

AZ sfw sure would like people to believe that they are seprate from the Ut SFW. Now if the UT SFW is NOT so bad why would you care.

"I have found if you go the extra mile it's Never crowded".
>[Font][Font color = "green"]Life member of
>the MM green signature club.[font/]
 
berryblaster - What you are suggesting will result in hunting for the wealthy and the rest of us would just be staring in from outside the fence. We could name it Sherwood Forest.
 
Gator, The reason that they say that they are not part of DPs group is because it is true. They may have had help from DP I do not know that. I know when I talked to them that they patterned themselves after SFW because of the success that Utah has had. They are made up different. Operate different. You tell me of another group of SFW that is made up of different smaller groups. They have more members than UT SFW. The two groups that are being talked about in Arizona are the same. Both groups have nothing to do with DP. They really have different names. Now, you guys will not believe me and will not take time to check it all out. that is fine. You can continue to hate SFW and what it does. That is fine. I really do not care. You have the right to hate who you want. But facts are facts. Now all of you have a great Presidents day and a great week.
 
Apex,

"living in IL you could care less about Utah and the expo tags you're just pissed that you can't draw a tag."

Dude, your post doens't even make sense. SFW was directly responsible for stealing those 200 premium tags taken directly from the NR pool, and morphing them into the expo raffle tags you refer to. They are one and the same! And you claim I could care less about the expo tags??? What up?

Sorry if you don't like nonresidents educating residents as well as other nonresidents to the scourge that is SFW, but I believe in the North American Model for Wildlife Conservation. Some of us out here are actually not selfish like you are. We don't think in terms of ourselves first. But you just don't get that. You just hate easterners or nonresidents whatever. Guess what, I used to live out west. So what? SFW is infecting several states now. Not just Utah. Sorry if you don't like nonresidents complaining about orgs founded in your state stealing tags in your state, but they are stealing federal land tags from both residents AND nonresidents.

I don't know you and don't give a piss what you think of me. You've never met me. You are just prejudice against nonresidents. Deal with it. Why don't you just start your own thread on that topic? I'm not going to stop educating people on SFW because you don't like me in Utah!

If any of you folks out there are old enough to remember the United Way scandal, not going to look it up to confirm numbers, but it came out that like 95% of the donations were being used for administrative expenses and only 5% made it on the ground. That is SFW but in their case it's like 14% getting on the ground, but that number is probably skewed still. That is what we have in SFW.

Apex, I expect I pissed in your corn flakes by jointing UWC (a Utah based org). Sorry about that, but they value nonresidents. BYW - I also have relatives currently lliving in Utah, SLC. A physician, who pays a lot of taxes there too.
 
Looks like this week is starting with the same old BS there Mr. Birdman! We do not care whether DP is directly involved with the group(s)you mention. The facts are that he was instrumental in getting them started. You have even agreed that is the case. A bunch of the people in charge are his hand picked people to run them just like he did Ryan Benson to run the BGF and if you don't believe that you are the one who needs to get with the program and check things out. You keep telling us to check things, but there is nothing more to check out, other than their word and that is just more BS! Do you think they are going to admit being tied in with DP? Come on, you can't be that dumb, can you? This sentence in your last post says it all, so why don't you give up. "I know when I talked to them that they patterned themselves after SFW because of the success that Utah has had." What the he** success have they had other than to pilfer millions of dollars out of hunters pockets, LOL!
 
That must be it Topgun. After all, I should never question your thoughts. Those thoughts are always right. I been thinking about it and realize there is nothing that you do not know. You are perfect with the knowledge. I guess I should be asking you where I should hunt. Do you think that I should put in for the Wasatch or the Nebo for my elk permit this year. What of the 30 deer units do you think I would have the best success on. I Have enough points that I will draw any area that I put in for. What is your opinion to the best area. Thanks for all your help. Have a great day.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-20-12 AT 06:12PM (MST)[p]I like how birdman says how AZSFW was pattered after SFW Utah but "they're different". Were they different when AZSFW tried to do a sneaky BS backdoor tag grab? Utah SFW or AZSFW, Sounds like the same 'ol SFW to me.

If it looks like $hit, if it smells like $hit, it's probably $hit.
 
AZSFW certainly appears to want to model their "fund raising" program after Utah's SFWDWR. Not sure why any sportsman would care to see that experiment repeated after learning all the facts.

On a brighter note, I like the new smaller management units for deer in Utah. This is how Nevada has done it ever since I can remember, and I believe it should allow UTDWR to manage their herds better. That is as long as they truly do put the time and science in to utilizing the new system correctly.
 
>zim
>
>did you use to be illarcher?
>
>
>

I don't know about illarcher but he did get outted as Bearbow a while after Founder told him to pound pavement. He wrote a very scathing tantrum on the Bowsite about what a horrible site this was and said Founder was in bed with SFW.
 
>zim
>
>did you use to be illarcher?
>
>
>that would explain why you can't
>do math


He said;

"For the record, I think you'll find most of the nonresidents posting here likely have hunted Utah previously, and have been the source of 90% of the UTDOW funding for decades."

A little fuzzy on the math there I think.

Didn't he show us pictures of his mail order bride packin his tree stands in for him once, thats my kind of woman. Hey Zim where do I pick one of those up?
 
Zim
I hear that there are some nice women down in Ecuador, in fact I think there's one named Lorena thats looking for a new husband and she's already in the states. Might be something to look into there big guy although you might have to sleep with one eye open if you know what I mean.
 

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