Anti-SFW Organization

Zim

Zim

Very Active Member
Messages
2,342
For those of you concerned sportsmen out there who are watching our public land tags being prostituted by SFW/BGF and their politics, I am wondering if there is any organization out there who's primary agenda is stopping them.

I've seen this org posted in a few places, but by the looks of the site, it appears they are focussed specifically on Utah.

http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org/ORIGINS.html

I've been aware of SFW and their tag thefts in Utah for years, but now the cancer is spreading out of control to all trophy game states. I have been a board member of the largest conservation org in my former home state of Indiana, but feel totally helpless as a nonresident living out east. It's going to take spirited fights by resident hunters to have a spit of a chance versus the big politics that is being put in place by Don Peay. Therein lies the problem. Legislators & F&G depts don't give a chit what nonresidents think. They get no votes from us. So I am wondering if there is any organization out there at all who has fighting SFW/BGF as their top agenda, and a real plan of attack. If so, I'd like to be a member as that is about all I can do from my vantage point. Thanks.
 
Hell yeah!! I'd join up also.
We've kept em pretty much at bay here in Idaho but they are persistent, SFW/BGF need to be put out of business for sure.
 
I'd also join a group like that in a heartbeat even if it's just to fight the Utah tag grab! The only problem I have with that link is they want you to go to Facebook and I will not go on that website. If they would update their website and get a membership drive going, I would bet a lot of people on this site, as well as Big Fin's OYOA website, would join. Maybe some of you guys living in Utah that represent the bulk of members on this MM site could look into this for us and we could get the ball rolling instead of just getting on a couple websites and complaining!
 
Zim,
Wow these posts crack me up. So please tell me how you are going to help our wildlife??? Or is that not the point of your proposed group? Is the idea to start a group to only fight against SFW/BGF???? I guess I just don't understand how a group like that would be a benefit????
 
@muley_73,

Whats so funny that its a crack up??? Its a serious problem and the general public is tired of the blatant arrogance of the SWF. In my opinion, the only way to help the mule deer is to get our legislative leaders and our governer to accept the fact that our big game is a serious asset to the state of Utah. If enough people show support of giving the DWR more money to help our deer herds we would not need to worry about the SFW at all. Make our Utah goverment aware that their jobs are on the line unless something is done. Then if they dont do what they say, vote them out.
 
Dont worry hooper he has had so much kooliade it controls his brain!



+1 on the fight.



hornkiller.jpg
 
And just where do you think that money is going to come from???? Again....I am NOT a SFW member...but where is all the money you talk about coming from. I have watched on this site as they talk about the possibility of raising tag fees to help...and the guys on here go WACKO....Just give the DWR more money...I am good with that! Where is it coming from????????
 
>@muley_73,
>
>Whats so funny that its a
>crack up??? Its a serious
>problem and the general public
>is tired of the blatant
>arrogance of the SWF. In
>my opinion, the only way
>to help the mule deer
>is to get our legislative
>leaders and our governer to
>accept the fact that our
>big game is a serious
>asset to the state of
>Utah. If enough people show
>support of giving the DWR
>more money to help our
>deer herds we would not
>need to worry about the
>SFW at all. Make our
>Utah goverment aware that their
>jobs are on the line
>unless something is done. Then
>if they dont do what
>they say, vote them out.
>

Now thats a "novel idea", gettin the government to do what their suppost to do.
 
Well Fishlake! There are alot of people out there that have alot of money the would like to see some changes! Well like I am sure I could through more than a few k to a good cause if needed!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-14-12 AT 06:05PM (MST)[p]Zim

I didn't realize that UWC was trying to stop SFW/BGF. I don't see where that is there agenda. I'm not here to defend SFW/UWC/BGR or any pro hunting group but If you are looking to join some that are, here you go.

I didn't know how much time and money you want to invest in your efforts but I listed a few below, I'm sure they would be glad to take your money for membership.

www.peta.org/

www.nywolf.org/

This one has a bunch you could choose from.
http://www.all-creatures.org/links/hunt.html

www.defenders.org/

Todd Black

Visit our YouTube page
http://www.youtube.com/user/bulls4bto?feature=mhum
 
come on guys,

Don't try to do anything positive guys. Just forge ahead and let's all keep fighting among ourselves!

Why don't you all get together and help CHANGE the SFW's mission if you think there's a better direction.

I fail to see the good in biotching about it when you're not involved and simply founded your opinion on other's sourgrapes. I can hear it all now; you've done your "research". LOL,

The same thing happens when a tag goes unfilled or undrawn. Some guys look around at someone else to blame. Some of you guys are not old enough to remember that the good old days were NOT all that good. We can't give SFW all the credit nor can we give them all the blame. They just happen to be the biggest target on which to take out your frustrations.

The negativily and name-calling is counter-productive for all sportsmen. Remember, we're all in his together....

What CAN we do to make more progress?

Zeke
 
If SFW and MDF were forced to open their books to the public, so we can really see where all the money goes, I think they would be thought of in a different manner. Until then, they are only steeling tags from joe public and this should stop. I have already made contact with my state rep and he is undenyably aware of my feelings.
Vote them out if they refuse to at least debate and do something to stop the theivery!
Todd your sarcasm is in poor taste.
 
I see it as Todd just saying things the way they are.

Hunting is such a selfish, private sport that we'll have a tough time banding together like the anti's do. Too many guy want to be "tough dudes" on this site. It's getting us nowhere fast!

God bless us all.

Zeke

PS: Todd, you and I have never met but yet a guy PM'd me to tell me that you (my supposed buddy) and I were full of shiite. I guess it makes me like you even more! I certainly pay attention a little closer to what you say!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-14-12 AT 07:35PM (MST)[p]William--

Not a touch of sarcasm, I believe I pointed Zim to a few organizations that were anti SFW, that is what he asked. I fail to see any sarcasm in that.

I just get tired of hearing the same old thing over and over again, it gets old--or maybe i'm just old.

To me it comes down to this. The UDWR cannot do what they are doing without generating more money then they currently are through license sales and a few governmental matching programs. So a conservation origination steps up offers a solution (right wrong indifferent, it was and is a solution to generate more dollars). Now nearly all the conservation organizations in Utah buy into this model (of varying degrees) and support it by taking the time to 'prostitute' our wildlife. I'm not saying its the best model by any means. BUT, I would be willing to bet if anyone else suggested a model/idea generating money from wildlife they would certainly be criticized by someone some where for doing so.

Its really do bad we don't live in a perfect world and have a perfect wildlife management system. Its too bad we really can't be united about something as simple as hunting and wildlife.

I guess if we can't even unit over religion or Christianity why should anyone expect us to unite over wildlife:(

By the way its stealing (meaning to take something from some one) not steeling. How was that for sarcasm;)



Todd Black

Visit our YouTube page
http://www.youtube.com/user/bulls4bto?feature=mhum
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-14-12 AT 07:51PM (MST)[p]Well it took a month but looks like finally some of the SFW lovers Blanding Boy and Zeke are crawling out from under their rocks after the Arizona midnight tag rape attempt.

Now you have a big audience.

Kindly provide your explanation for your SFW boy's John Wayne Gacy impersonation down there.

This thead is based upon a simple question. Nowhere did I claim I was founding any organizations so stop lying.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-14-12 AT 07:57PM (MST)[p]Blanding Boy and Zeke,
This thread is intended to be productive and on the topic. If you love Don Peay and SFW so much please start your own thread called "We Love SFW" or something instead of crashing mine. Thanks. Please go away.
 
For clarification, UWC is not "anti-SFW". We recognize that SFW has done quite a few good things, especially in the past.

Do we oppose the expo tags and no earmarks? Absolutely. Do we oppose the use of wildlife to complete the circle of leverage on our resources and game managers? You bet.

There is a HUGE issue with this "circle" I am speaking of. When any entity is allowed to generate funds based on a public resource and then turn around and have the capacity to lobby for the benefit of the revenue generated from the resource, there is absolutely a conflict of interest. Both hands in the cookie jar with a gun to the head of the lady making the cookies.

UWC will continue to support sound, science based management and lobby for our members and the heritage they represent. Do we end up with the anti SFW crowd in our ranks? You bet, but it has to do with ideals, not a mantra that says we are against everything SFW does.

This last December, we co-sponsored a proposal with MDF, UBA and BOU. Do we still want change with the expo tags, even though we were in cahoots with MDF on this specific topic? Yep.

In short, we stand FOR our members and their ideals, which is to preserve our heritage and to keep our sport driven by the North American Wildlife Conservation Model and specifically out of the hands of politicians who aim to put price tags on our animals. Sometimes our stances end up on the other end of certain groups and their agendas. That does not make us anti.



http://unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
I'm not the mouth-piece for the SFW and I have no details of the AZ situation other than what I've read on this site.

I'll be the first to disclose that I'll not pass judgement on anyone based on some internet rant, speculations or opinions.

Regardless of the direction of any sportsman's groups we'll all have slightly different opinions. We're free to share them on the site.

I do want to commend you since you didn't resort to silly name calling and arrogant belittling. I also didn't suggest that you were starting an org to derail SFW. You did say you wanted to join one and Todd simply gave you some valid options.

Good luck in your quest.

Signed; Mr Average Joe,
Zeke
 
Todd....I totally agree with you...

Zim....I think you are better off joining one of the groups Todd pointed you towards. All you do is help the anti's with you non stop bitching and moaning!!!
 
Zeke, I suggest you join PETA with your boy Blanding. And you offered no excuse for your boy's midnight tag rape in Arizona. What up?
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-14-12 AT 08:22PM (MST)[p]Make it a 3rd SFW lover crawling out. Fishlake please explain your boys
Midnight tag rape in arizona. Then go join PETA.

Signed Mr Average Joe Zim
 
Tree,
Thanks for the response to the thread. I will look into what you say your organization is all about. It sounds like it's a good fit for me and a lot of us, on many levels. Does your org attract pro SFW members too or are they excluded?

Here again, my guess is that there is no way that everyone would agree with 100% of what you're doing, especially if you're trying to do something to benefit wildlife. We all can't agree on everything. He!!, I'm married and certainly have learned that point.

Zim, don't stoop too low. You've made your point and I can appreciate you position. It's just that I have no answers for you on the AZ deal. It's not that I won't say, it's that I can't because of my lack of credible info.

Average Joe, Zeke
 
>LAST EDITED ON Feb-14-12
>AT 08:22?PM (MST)
>
>Make it a 3rd SFW lover
>crawling out. Fishlake please
>explain your boys
>Midnight tag rape in arizona.
>Then go join PETA.
>
>Signed Mr Average Joe Zim

GOOD SIGNATURE ZIM! YOU MAY USE IT IF YOU WANT.

ZEKE
 
Just about a year ago, when I came onto MM and introduced the UWC as finally up and running, and described our philosophy regarding hunters and wildlife, I got hit hard by some very passionate folks. That was fine, at least they had the passion to voice their opinion whether it be positive or negative. Since then, more than a few MM'ers have joined our ranks. I have no doubt whatsoever that some of those fine folks are also SFW members as well, or at minimum believe in what SFW promoted when they began.

So yeah Zeke, if you believe in what the UWC represents and are also an SFW member, then by all means, join our cause as well. We are always looking for pro active, passionate hunters and fishermen/women who are willing to let their voices be heard loud and clear. I'd bet there are even a few BGF members who have joined the ranks too :) And you are right, no individual or group will ever get 100 percent agreement from the gallery. But when the majority agree in principal, then there is a reckoning to be had.







www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
Please, Mr Hanks,

Throw out one solid project that one could get involved in right now! Anything to get away from this bickering.
 
Damn Todd, now you are getting on the spelling bee bandwagon. ;-) My one and only problem with SFW/MDF is the accountability of the funds generated by 200 coveted tags that have been arguably stolen(stoolen) from the public.
When they refuse to open the books for an audit, even one conducted by DWR or UDNR, then this whole operation should come to a shreaking (?) halt.
 
>Please, Mr Hanks,
>
>Throw out one solid project that
>one could get involved in
>right now! Anything to get
>away from this bickering.


I hear you, the bickering does take a toll. We're having a board meeting tommorrow night to set up a variety of projects to get underway asap. I'll let you know (and anyone else) how you can help....and get away from the bickering. ;-)

www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
Before SFW:
Less Elk
Less Turkeys
Less Big Horns
Less Mnt Goats
Declining deer herd!!!!!

Fact: SFW is NOT the biggest problem facing our states wildlife, as much as some would lead all of us to believe.

Fact: SFW has made some bad decisions.

Fact: No other group has helped wildlife over the last 20 years in the state of UT more than SFW.

Fact: Some will agrue the previous Fact.

Fact: No one will be able to tell me which group has done more.

Fact: If is was not SFW the same guys would be crying about something else.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-12 AT 04:36AM (MST)[p]"SFW has made some bad decisions"

Muley - So that is your justification for SFW's Arizona midnight John Wayne Gacy tag rape attempt?

Just checkin. Because none of the other SFW lovers seem to have an answer.
 
Zim
Would you PLEASE enlighten us on this Az rape thing your talking about? Your the only one mentioning it so you must know more than the rest of us.

I would like to see more accountability for where the money is being spent, but IF ANY money is being spent on wildlife its a step in the right direction. Do I think another group could do better? Maybe, but I haven't seen another group try to step up or anyone take any other solutions to the Big game board. If someone wants to draw something up that the majority of hunters/sportsmen can agree on and stand behind, I'm sure the big game board would have no option but to listen to it. I'm sure thats how sfw got their foot in the door. We as Sportsmen need to band/stand united. This bickering and fighting will do nothing but sink this ship we're all trying to float in.
Just my .02. We are all pationate<---Spelling? about wildlife.
catman
 
CATMAN---It's "passionate" and if you aren't aware of the under the table deal that SFW and Rep. Weiers tried to pull recently to take hundreds of big game tags and put them up for auction like Utah does at it's SFW EXPO, you must have been out hand plowing the back 40!
 
Sorry Topgun I don't spend hundreds of hours on the internet. I do have a job and so I guess I have been in the back 40 plowing. And thanks for the spelling
 
I know Blanding Boy and Zeke, they are both very credible men. The question I have to ask myself is, Am I better off now than in 1994 when we first went up on the steps of the Utah State capitol building? The answer is YES! Muley 73 is right, there is much more game than ever, we are now living in the good old days. Sure I want more deer, probably more than most but we can't point a finger on one problem, there are many reasons for the decline. I find it interesting why there is so much contention, whether it be this topic, the CWMU or whatever. In my opinion if someone benefits from wildlife and it benfits me also, then that is a win/win situation. Maybe you guys should go to Peta or those other sites, I am sure they would be waiting with open arms. I betthey would be greatly entertained in reading all this turmoil going on among the sportsman.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-12 AT 09:09AM (MST)[p]It's been pointed out here many times over that during that same time period almost all the western states improved game numbers similarly during that time period, without 550 wealth tags. Search the archives.
 
Interesting. I went through both listings and the first time I seen Don Peay mentioned was by gleninaz. No where did it see Don was there to start it other than someone saying to much like Utah. Then it went crazy. Interesting, the blind following the blind.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-12 AT 09:22AM (MST)[p]Birdbrain, You have been beaten to death by everyone on that topic on other threads. You can't even put a spin on it like a good SFWer does, so it's now making me wonder if you are in fact a SFW board member like I originally suspected. So I'm going to guess you're an unemployed SFW wolf lobbyist?
 
Zim, You are right about one thing, I am unemployed. Have not worked since I was 54. Have not had to. I am not on the Board for SFW. Sorry. Just that I check out things that are on here. If you guys are right I would give you the credit. If not then I do not. I do check out things to see what is really right or not. Something I think you should do. But that is ok. I know you will not. You are just one of those that think that they know everything. If so start an organization that will fix the mule deer herd and hunting in the state of Utah and I will back it. But it has to be one that will work.
 
Birdman (64 posts)
Feb-15-12, 09:32 AM (MST)
40. "RE: Anti-SFW Organization"
Zim, You are right about one thing, I am unemployed. Have not worked since I was 54. Have not had to. I am not on the Board for SFW. Sorry. Just that I check out things that are on here


So are you retired and drawing a retirement check, and if not, why don't you have to work? Did you hit the lottery or have a rich relative that left you with plenty of bucks? Anyway, what I'm getting at is if you have all this free time on your hands and say you check things out, then why haven't you been able to look up everything we have that completely contradicts what you and the other SFW followers on this site are trying to push off on us?
 
Seems like someone is trying to "push off" what on whom?

Topgun, You have a lot of time to do your "internet" research but we still don't need to agree on everything. I admit that I was a bit disappointed when you stooped to name-calling though. I just figured you were above that.

Zeke
 
The Utah watershed restoration initiative is the only major player in the west that have put millions of dollars on the ground as projects, this is being funded by the "tag" money generated by SFW and others. It is the envy of all the surrounding states when it comes to habitat projects and restoration work being done. Now, whether we can say that it has helped restore the mule deer herd is still in the air, but it has helped all wildlife as a whole. IMO mostly elk right now. So, when people ask for one thing that was done, this is one very big thing.
 
No rich relatives, just some good investments. I have taken time to read what you guys have put on to prove your point. Only thing I have seen is that someone draws an opinion and the others of you decide to run with it. Doesn't matter if it is fact or fiction. Someone said it was right so lets spread it. Again I look at things first. Take time to make a phone call or two and check things out. You should try it. It is great and fun.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-12 AT 10:29AM (MST)[p]

CATMAN---Sorry I came across like I did im my post to you! I was just shocked that you asked Zim that question because the tag grab, or rape as Zim calls it, has been all over the net and all over this, and most major hunting websites, for some time now. It really doesn't take hundreds of hours to stay up on all this stuff the way it's all over the place.

ZEKE---Sorry I disappointed you on a couple words I've used in retorts to these SFW supporters, but it's getting old when that organization pulls the crap it does and then their people try to come on and portray themselves the way they do when it's so easy to see through the group with a little time spent searching out the facts. Three lashes with a wet noodle for me as Ann Landers used to say, LOL! I'll try to do better, but the longer these friggin threads last and the more BS that is spouted by them with no facts to back themselves up, the madder I get!!! Sorry Bro!!!

Birdman---That's nice you have investemnts to support yourself, but I DID put up what should have been a very easy to read post on the other thread regarding both organizations being basically the same and located at the same address. What is your response to that? IMO you really just came back with more BS with no substance to negate what we have proven. Why do I need to make any phone calls when the stuff is right up on their websites to read in black and white showing they are closely tied together with the same address for all their business and donations!
 
LOL, You're forgiven! "you had me at HELLO"

I don't agree with your hyper-negative assessment of SFW but I do enjoy your posts. You usually have something intelligent and entertaining to say!

Keep on truckin'

Zeke
 
Now that's funny and I don't care who you are!!! Thanks for at least realizing I'm trying to research stuff before I speak and I'll definitely keep on truckin and trying to ferret the truth out before I do, LOL!
 
Topgun, I did read the posts and see that they both have the same address. I also know that they are connected. Just not the DP or the Utah Sportsman for Fish and Wildlfe. They are an organization started in Arizona buy some groups in order to get clout. I did talk to them on the phone a while back. They said thay they liked the success Utah was having and patterned there organization after it. They copyed Utah. They also said they started by themselves with nothing to do with DP. I also know that Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife do not accept them as a chapter or break off group. I have looked at their web sight and can see nothing to do with the DP organization. The only thing alike is the SFW. Even that means two different organizations.
 
Birdman,

I am not here to argue with anybody about the AZ SFW...That being said, when AZ SFW was in the process of being started Chris Denham told me that Don Peay had met with the group and helped them form the organization. I am not sure who you talked with but I talked with Denham and he stated Don had helped in the formation of that organization. Denham is listed as one of the board members for AZSFW.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-12 AT 11:27AM (MST)[p]Birdman- You seem to be level headed in this match. Why did D. say the following on the other AZSFW topic?

dkpeay (475 posts) Jan-11-12, 07:18 AM (MST) 20. "RE: SFW-Arizona"


SfFW believes in local control
Each state sfw organization is:

1. a complete separate legal entity
2. Has a totally independent board of directors electEd by sportsmen in their specific state
3. Each state keeps 100 percent of the money they raise in their state


So to try and link any state is not true in any sense of the word.

When their are issues of common agreement such as wolf delisting. There is cooperation

http://www.monstermuleys.info/dcforum/DCForumID5/18877.html#20

If AZSFW was not in any way a part of SFW, why did D not just say so to begin with? It looks like the AZSFW has ties in with SFW, just like NMSFW, WYSFW, COSFW, AKSFW.

I think SFW has done some good and some bad. As a former member, who still donates a little here and there, I got tired of the claim that everything good to come to Utah's wildlife came through SFW and all the bad came from somewhere else.
 
Could be, I also talked to AZSFW. They told me that they wanted to pattern their organization after Utah. They very well could have ask DP about How to set it up. They also told me that they have nothing to do with Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife. I do know what states are involved with DP's group and Arizona is not one of them. There are 7 states involved. Although it was tried to get Arizona involved with SP's group it never happened. Not to argue either. Ask Denham if they are part of Dons Group. He will let you know.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-12 AT 01:49PM (MST)[p]I have no need to talk with Denham. He has told me in the past that AZ SFW would be different than Utah SFW and that they would not ask for wealth tags. He lied once so I have no need to ask him anymore questions. It should be very clear to everybody that AF SFW is a separate organization from SFW however; Don Peay does have influence within AZ SFW. AZ SFW is too close to SFW for me. Everybody needs to make up their own minds and do their own research.
 
First of all what don said was right. But stand back and look at the whole picture. Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife is made up of 7 states. They have one President and they all have their own board of directors. The all work in a simular way. If I understand what he said, Arizona SFW is their own group. Meaning not Sportsman for Fish and Wildlife. They call themselves Sportsmen For Wildlife. I do know that they patterned their organization after Utah and ask for help setting it up. No question. The do not have the same name and operate totally different. If they were part of the Utah group they would be included in their magazine and so forth. All the other groups come to the expo everyyear with a booth. Arizona does not because it is not in the same organization. They are their own seperate distinct group.
I do not believe SFW is the answer to everything. Never have and never will. I have been members of other groups and still am. I just see a group that is pushing forward trying to make a difference. Lots of other groups are sitting back watching when action needs to be taken. I also see that Elk foundation and SFW are working again together as is other groups. Dispite what has happened in the past they are working together to fight the wolves. The past is past. Right now they are working together fighting a fight that must be won.
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-12 AT 01:49PM (MST)[p]I really did not start this thread to attract all the SFW cockroaches resurfacing after the Arizona scandal. I just questioned if there where a formal organization based on the North American Model for Wildlife Conservation with the priorety to defend it. So based on the feedback I am assuming there is no such organization. Apparently the org I posted above is the closest thing to it.

So it seems the only option is to educate sportsmen of SFW's antics, and informing them of the need to bombard their legislators with complaints as each bill is introduced.
 
ZIM---Shame on you for calling them cockroaches, as it may get you a rebuke from my buddy Zeke! Seriously though, I have been looking into the organization after you put up their link and I talked with the President of the organization yesterday. I was impressed enough with what I heard and read on this site from him that I have joined their membership, even though I'm way up here in MI. If, after a while it appears that I've chosen the correct group, I have assured him that they will at least get my monetary support since I can't be involved in on-the-ground work!
 
The DWR can get the MONEY needed very easily. Why the hell dont they run the EXPO or conservation expo at the Salt Palace. Then, They get 100% of the $$$ to pay employees, habitat projects, patroling, predator cantrol and so on.

Think about how much $$$ SFW and MDF get from this thing. Put that 100% into DWR control. Just my thoughts!!!
 
Thanks for the link. On the lighter side 30inch I would love to post a picture on that ranger rick photo contest with my boy holding a dead buck. lol
 
zim

from what i get out of your posts your big ##### about sfw is that they stole or stooleddd all the expo tags from the non-res hunt pool ? if you can show some proof of this i will send you $30 bucks and join your new hunting org. look back at how many tags their were before and after sfw !!
 
coon, It's a waste of breath to try to convert long lost lemmings talking in circles per SFW protocol. I'd really just like to collect some relevent info on honest orgs from ethical sportsmen and move forward.
 
You guys are something else.If anyone disagrees with your point,they are a cockroach or an idiot.I mean,really.Ever take a good long look in the mirror?Maybe you should.I never expressed any view other than get off your a$$ and do something about it if you're so damn worried about it.Never said I was for or against anything.Seriously-TOPGUN-you're retired,aren't you?If you're so concerned about hunting out west,use some of your time to do something proactive!Get together with ZIM,and you guys can start up the new pro wildlife,pro hunting group that we all are searching for!I'll be your first member!
 
ZIM, keep up the good fight!! You find the right org. and I'll send my money. Just like politicians SFW lovers sure seem to spin everything they say, laugh it off, deny it. It reminds me of Obama talking to a conservative reporter. I for one will never forget the Arizona midnight tag rape,grab,steal and I ....VOTE!!!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-15-12 AT 04:43PM (MST)[p]nontypical---FYI I AM quite involved in trying to do exactly what you mentioned. If I wasn't, you wouldn't see me on here debating with these people that I feel are completely for the opposite of what all hunters should be striving for! This is from a person who has no thoughts of ever hunting in Utah, where this all started. I have taken a look at the link Zim posted, talked with it's leadership, and have chosen to become a member. If things go well and they are what I think they are, I fully intend to support them physically and monetarily. SFW should feel lucky I don't live in Utah because I would already be on the front lines attempting to send them packing if I did!!!
 
We don't need a perfect system, just one that works. If DWR did their job then we wouldn't have SFW. Us hunters wouldn't need to be voted in on a board to represent hunters and give our oppinions to the DWR. Take care of business and the finances will take care of themselves. The DWR are horrible businessmen. They control the resource, there are not multiple groups of resources (big game) trying to put each other out of business. They are squandering the one and only resource and some of them need to be replaced. If you mess up at your job continually you're not around much longer....you're hitting the gate or kicking bricks.
If they managed the herds better, none of us would be joining someones group for $30 a year. We would apply it directly to the resource and very likely would pay a little higher tag fee.
Take care of business DWR!
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-12 AT 08:14AM (MST)[p]Here ya go 30inchbuck,

http://www.rainn.org/

It would be in all our best interest if you and your buddies Don Peay, Blanding Boy, Zeke & Birdbrain would hook up with this org.
 
zim i'm not a fan of SFW, but your a giant bag of DOUCHE.......
seriously, SOME of the people you just named are stand up guys who would take their shirt of the back for even a ##### like you....

grow up....

and please by all means jump back on and light me up with some scathing comment about how i'm all hopped up on koolaid, dumber than the average post, and part of the great scam that is robbing you and yours of all your hunting opportunity.......

i'm all primed and ready to take it! haha
 
I'm not opposed to either the convention or conservation tags. Alot of good has been done with the money produced from both activities.

I see no other way to have funded many of the projects and IMHO we are better off then a lot of states in the area of habitat, transplants, highways, and predator control because we have the tag systems.

I do have trouble with the closed nature of the organizations that are utilizing a public resourse. There is nothing that mandates the DWR or any other organization to apply more control or requirements on the sportsman organizations. After many converstions with the DWR regarding this situation, it is clear that they will not apply any more control without a mandate or law from the legislature.

It is the gift horse or golden goose situation.

If someone knows someone who would carry a bill requiring audits and control, setting standards and guidelines and openess for the sportsman organizations as a requirement to obtain the tags. Then I'm good with the tags. The DWR is good at many things, but this area is not their expertise and regulation should be given to someone else.

And, yes I have read the audit on the conservation tags program. It was meaningless and didn't cover the right areas.

I'm OK with the tags, I just want a neutral party with the right expertise looking at the books.
 
So did you and BigFin start that one as well?








Outside of a horse is good for the inside of a man.
 
Brokeback,

It's your "stand up buddies" who first personally attacked me on this thread. Not the other way around. "Stand up guys" would not go out of their way to crash someone else's thread with childish personal attacks.

The title of my thread is not intended to be sarcatic. It is a serious inquiry. Some posting here have expressed to be similarly interested.

Kindly go away.
 
Zim,
Your original post just cried out contempt not sarcasm. You've gone on to prove your point... YOU DON'T LIKE SFW.

I respect you opinion and we all need to do a better job of communicating rather than attacking.

If you've felt attacked by me then sorry for that! It was not my intent. When I've read you posts I certainly have seen attacks and name calling but I'm not whining about it.

Keep up your antics! It makes you look so smart!

Topgun,
I do expect and receive a higher level of communication when we banter. You're a stand-up guy even though our views diverge on SFW. Other than that, we agree on almost everything else.

Zeke
 
Blue goat almost explains my feelings pretty well, I will not attend nor subscribe to any orginization that has free rein.
My state rep, Hutchins knows how I feel. If those of you that have a problem with this, then contact your reps as well. Applying pressure to the State House and Senate is the only way this will be resolved. Waddoups is not persuing(?) another term, Thank GOD, or I would be on his back too.
 
Zeke---I've really been pretty tame on here in regards to the DP/SFW/BGF when you come right down to it! I can assure you that if I lived out there they would have he** to pay because I would be a leader of the pack to dump the whole friggin bunch and start over. DP and the likes of him prey on people's greed and the residents out there that go to the Expo and buy all those tags while complaining how corrupt the thing isare really hypocrites in my book. I still maintain if there are as many out there that think his tactics suck that a one year boycott of the thing would send him packing. Short of that it will take what buttshot mentioned and that is to put tremendous pressure on the legislators to put a stop to it, up to and including voting their azz out of office!
 
Mr TG,
That's the way things get done, NOT all the petty crap here on MM. (although it's entertaining)

If you were here I suspect you and I could sit down with a few real SFW dudes and your view would moderate a bit. Your not here so I suspect your view won't change and I respect that.

I'll admit they're far from perfect and they've bet on the wrong horse from time to time. I have seen the good side of the org too. Some guys want to hash and re-hash all the "bad" and igore all the good. Even when good things are done the anti-SFW crowd won't see it.

I think that both sides are simply too set in their ways to have a meaningful discussion.

Peace,
Zeke
 
LAST EDITED ON Feb-16-12 AT 12:21PM (MST)[p]That may well be the case since I'm far removed from the situation and can only go by what I read. I will admit that you are probably correct in your assessment! I have a strong feeling after numerous discussions with my buddy in Wyoming, who belongs to a WYSFW Chapter, that it is not the common guys that are involved with the "on-the-ground" work who are to blame, but more so the top brass for what appears to be nefarious goings on, including these tag schemes that do not help the average Joe one bit. Therefore, I have probably been way too critical of those who come on this website to defend what good they see being done and that I can't see being 1500+ miles away. For that I do apologize for what has probably been a lack of good judgement in chastizing some of these members whose heart is more than likely in the right place!
 
Well i commend you for not stooping so low as to insult me as i most hypocritically did you.....for that i apologize......

However, i find it very ironic that you don't want an opposing opinion of yours. Politically that would be considered dictatorship or totalitarianistic government. You posted wanting anti SFW organizations. Zeke, and blanding boy were the first to respond with options.....legitimate options.

your response to that was to state that they were crawling out from hiding.....they didn't seem to be hiding to me....

I have never in my life given a dollar of my money beyond 60-80 bucks on the five dollar tags to SFW. I have been the recipient of some of there money for donations furthing projects i have been involved in enhancing and providing viable options for hunters and fishermen. Isn't that interesting, never have i ever given money and yet they have freely given to things i hold dear.

So whilst they may be going in directions that you and those who share your ideals don't agree with, you must admit that they have at least attempted to help. they for all the wrong that so many propose they have done, have also been the proprieters of much good......

if you can come up with an organization that can maintain a high level of quality that many hunters and sportsman desire while still maintaining a grand amount of opportunity i'll be right in. but as of now, it seems to me that it must be one or the either and i tend to want quality as a opposed to quantity.....
 
Very Nobel TopGun.


And for what it is worth, state laws/regulations on the books, in UT and NM do dictate that 90% of the money from the tags goes on the ground.

So as far as some guys saying that all that goes into the pockets of the "top brass" well state regulations say otherwise. I think I will take state regulations over what joe smo says.



Outside of a horse is good for the inside of a man.
 
30"buck---Regardless of what may be on the books, we are talking about transparency as to whether it really is happening and not that it's supposed to! Have a good day!
 
brokedown_beav, Quote: "if you can come up with an organization that can maintain a high level of quality that many hunters and sportsman desire while still maintaining a grand amount of opportunity i'll be right in. but as of now, it seems to me that it must be one or the either and i tend to want quality as a opposed to quantity....


I can certainly understand where you are coming from, and do agree that SFW has used monies form conservation tags to accomplish good things for our wildlife, as have a few other organizations who also benefit from tag monies, I won't dispute that or ignore it. However, when the upper echelon of ANY organization promotes dissension amongst the ranks of hunters, continues to lead our hunting heritage farther and farther away from the principles of the NAWCM, and promises transparency over and over yet does not comply, we as hunters have every right to chastise, question, and demand that that organization rights the ship...or sink.

I would disagree with what I quoted from your post, but also agree that this is a major sticking point for hunters. The management philosophies dealing with social issues is not an easy one to accomplish, but it isn't impossible either. The majority of hunters just plain want to hunt with a reasonable expectation of seeing and maybe harvesting a buck: It's size is almost always irrelevant. But there are also those who would prefer a chance at an older class animal, and even those who would harvest nothing but a book animal. Premium Limited Entry, Limited Entry units are developed for those explicit purposes. GENERAL units are for opportunity. Why should an organization have the power to influence those who manage our wildlife to the point of virtually eliminating the general season hunter? They shouldn't!

Taking that into consideration, the Wildlife Board (after hearing both scientific biological reasons, and sane social reasons) chose to reconsider the buck to do ratios that had been chosen for 2012 deer hunting. It makes sense to have some general units run with a little higher buck/doe ratio to give those hunters who don't mind waiting a couple of years to have a better chance at a more mature animal, and some(most) units that gives opportunity to the general Joe hunter. Agree or disagree?

Where there is a will, there is always a way...



www.unitedwildlifecooperative.org
 
Sorry I guess I stole this from Robb aka please deer "Sfw pitting hunter vs hunter" ps this is NOT a good thing!
 
Stillhunter,

most of what you have to say is correct, in principle. the reality of it is that there is no possible way to have high quality every 'couple years' or so draw. the general season hunters will still want to have a piece of the quality pie and in most cases will invariably migrate to the draw units making them harder and harder to obtain......while still wanting to hunt general season.

the reality of it right now is that Utah is in no shape to offer any more tags. The deer herd has seen a consistent drop for nearly half a decade, for as of now inexplicable reasons. the tags have consistently followed out of necessity.

the numbers that the division comes up with are fundamentaly flawed if not out right lies. in order for any change to happen it will only occur with drastic changes within the state organization, meaning people need to be fired over this. In any real business, if the current organization showed a 5 year continual drop, let alone fifty they would be removed and the entire business would need massive overhaul......

like others before me i refuse to hunt this state any more, i can't afford to do it, for the experience that is given. This was happening long before SFW/BGF/UWC/RMEF/etc etc. it is sad really, a management scheme born out of fear is doomed to failure just as an organinzation that appears as a result of the same fear is as well......

Perfect principles are impossible to achieve with imperfect individuals furthering them......

it may seem quite pessimistic, but it is reality, hunting in utah as opposed to other states including those ravaged by wolves is quite sad.

littlebeaver.jpg
 
Correction Bluegoat.

Lots of good has been done with the conservation tag revenue and ZERO good has been done for wildlife with the convention tag revenue.

JUst keep your facts straight. COnvention tag money has ZERO accountability and is used for day to day operations like salaries.

Tony Abbott
 
Tony, Explain what tag money you are talking about. The tags auctioned off do have limits on them. The money off the application fees for the 200 tags is different.
 
Prove it! Display a total accounting for all revenue raised.



I wanted to take a scalp,but the kill was not mine.
 
Birdman,

No need to cloud the issue. By Utah state law 90% of the money from the conservation tags must go back to the state. I believe they have two years to spend the money but it must add up to 90%. On a side note I don't believe there has been an actual accounting that shows 90% actually went back but I could be wrong. Can you point that out to me if I am? I know that is the states job but it sure would be nice to know that the money that is required to go back does. Now on to the Convention tags. NO money from the Convention tags is required to be used for wildlife. Again NO MONEY required. Please keep those two strait. To try and say that 90% of the money from the tags SFW is given goes back to the states is not true. 90% of the conservation money and 0% of the convention money. That is the actual accounting?
 
You know what bothers me the most about these threads, is that don byron, troy and ryan just set idle and let these fires burn and we all know that none of them go unread, then expect me to try to sell corporate, sponsor, and dinner packages to a banquet and half to carry around a big a$$ friggin fire extinguisher to even try to get people to talk to you.

[email protected]
[email protected]


'IT AINT EASY BEING ME'
 
Dang shooter your going to need something bigger than a fire extinguisher. The fire is already out of hand, but hey as long as your getting paid it's cool.
 
I think you are right about the tag money. I think thou that 30% goes to the Fish and Game with 60% going into the fund that has to be spent in two years on projects agreed upon by both the Fish and Game and the organization. There are a few that think that the auction tag money also has no accountability. As for Troy, Ryan, Don and Byron getting on to answer questions, Everytime that they do they are slammed big time and called liars so why should they waist their time.
 
As far as the accountability of the auction money, last year it was given at a Big Game Board Meeting, I think after the meeting talking about how many units there would be on the deer hunt. It was the very last thing that was given and was presented by the Fish and Game. It listed all the organizations that had received tags and there was one organization that was going to be suspended as they had not accounted for the money that they had received. Another organization had was late in turning in there information to the dept.
 
Thanks for that. Now, why cloud the issue with tag %? Why not say the Expo is a cash cow for SDFW and MDF and move on. No shell games, just the facts. The expo is a great deal for the two organizations not for wildlife or conservation.
 
>Dang shooter your going to need
>something bigger than a fire
>extinguisher. The fire is
>already out of hand, but
>hey as long as your
>getting paid it's cool.

Deerlove, I hope your smarter than you sound or your verry mis informed im just a lolely foot soldier that has never recieved a dime in my 15 years of service to sfw, but sfw isnt what it used to be fifteen years ago either when don spilled the beans on the dixie collage campus to 20-25 of us about broading our horizons (THEN DIXIE WILDLIFE FEDERATION) to make things great in utah again, So hey anythings possible now

[email protected]
[email protected]


'IT AINT EASY BEING ME'
 
Birdman you just dont get it do you? Where is the expo $ going?? The 200 tags?? These are not auctioned.
 
Birdman

The conservation tag money (auction permits) is accounted for 100% and and does some really good things in this state. That is not in question.

What is in question is the 200 convention tags (welfare tags) that there is no requirement to account for and that was suppose to be used for UTAHS WILDLIFE.

That is an indisputable fact. I know because I help create the 200 convention permits.

Do not cloud the 2 different programs as they are NOTIHING alike.





Tony Abbott
 
LS338---After reading your comments, I honestly have to ask why you are doing that legwork as a lowly foot soldier for the organization when you speak so negatively in your post about DP/SFW?

U400E---That's because Birdman is obviously not seeing the forest for the trees, which is very similar to a lot of the DP sheeples, LOL!
 
Tony, You helped creat the 200 tag rape. You never put in any accountablility for the money for those tags? Why didn't you.
 

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