Another mule deer discussion (mostly about predation)

[wimpy]

This is laughable. Where were you guys when I was trying to warn you about the twelve-year cougar plan that was passed last year?
[http://www.monstermuleys.info/cgi-b...thread&om=14589&forum=DCForumID5&archive=yes]
If you are really worried about your deer herd, you need to be at the bear RAC meetings. It is the bears that are taking the fawns out. Yes, I have been running dogs for over 30 years.

 

[FIREHAWK]

Land resources will only feed so much game. Biologists will tell you as you thin out predators the predators will respond by having larger litters due to more abundant prey in their ecosystem. You are probably better off killing coyote and other varmint on site digging a hole and planting some bitter brush over the critter to biodegrade and nourish the plant. It really brings things full circle. I know domestic cats chew the head off rabbits first thing I'm sure bigger cats are the same. Here is a deer kill found by a friend, probably by a cat or coyote in the mojave preserve in CA close to a water source. Lion are protected here as well.


http://www.monstermuleys.info/photos/user_photos/68043x3_head_.jpg

 

[bearman]

So you have seen two lion kills in your life and never seen a lion in the wild. But we have a lion problem? Coyotes eat so many more deer than lions.

 

[cannonball]

Sorry bearman, but you're wrong. I'm a senior Citizen and spent a lot of time those earlier years in the mountains and for the first 30+ years I saw nothing of a cougar, just a couple of kills. These last years I have seen 3 cats and haven't been in the mountains nearly as much. If fact the cougars have been close to the roads. A person is lucky to see these reclusive animals, you know that, if you don't you have blinders on. Mark my words, the report I'm getting from those hunting the Southern region of Utah. The deer are all, but gone, what ever the reason. A base number of doe are needed to maintain a herd and after the winter loss, most areas of the Southern Region will soon be on a draw. Believe me cougars are only part of the problem, but an increased aggression on that cat is needed.

 

[mevertsen]

cannonball - a couple of questions for you, and not trying be a smart ass, or ruffle your feathers, but I have some questions, and would like a fair, honest answer.

1 - we hear about the winter kill in SO UT - why was that. Was it just a hard winter? Was the habitat in poor shape?

2 - what was the spring and summer moisture/temps like this year? Was there enough to bring back feed to an acceptable level?

3 - if there was a hard winter, and there were does that survived it, with a lot of other deer dying, they probably aborted their fawns - so it may take a couple years anyway before you even see a good crop of fawns.

4 - if there is a good habitat base to support an increase in deer, and the weather was good this year, than whatever deer were left should breed, and providing there is not other catastrophic die off, the does next year should have plenty of fawns. And as long as DWR realizes this and eases teh hunting down there for the next couple of years the deer will be able to recover.

5 - Now - here is my final thought - if the winter kill had something major to do with habitat - I am sure it did - then that means the habitat cannot support an increase in deer. Obviously it can't because a whole bunch of deer died - IF that was the reason.

Killing cats will just make people feel good - "I save 50 deer this year."

So - if we kill a lot of cats, and the deer rebound some from the response of killing cats - and it has to be ALOT by the way, constant, non stop killing to make sure that there is no room for a new cat to move in - then what happens when those deer that are now doing "good" experience a bad winter?

They all die again, but yet people think we need to kill cats to bring them back!!

No - we need to make sure the habitat can support an increase in the deer - then if there is no increase in a reasonable amount of time - I am guessing 3-4 years, then look at other issues.

Really there are only 4 or 5 - Habitat, predation, poaching, hunting, and other animals.

Later,

Marcial

 

[Deersman]

I have heard of this winter kill. I didn't see it. I heard of it from a accomplished outfitter in Utah. But he was asking me to the validity of it since it was reported to be heavy on Monroe which is where I spend all my time.

Again the DWR is vague on the matter. I called the DWR office and they could only report the same they herd but not confirm.

I wholeheartedly believe that a predator management program will be a big effort and it must be sustained. As far as I am concerned as long as we want plentiful big game to hunt.

The DH program is in jeopardy. Take that pool of volunteer effort and apply it to predator management. Reward predator hunting with more big game hunting.

 

[cannonball]

This situation in Southern Utah has been slowing coming for the last several years. We're not Nevada, nor are we Northen Utah. It is just that no one listens to the sportsmen and the local people who live outdoors and can see it first hand. The Old Time DWR wardens told us that there was a "base" herd that could be maintained and when that "base" gets below a certain level the herd will go down in a hurry. In my estimation we have been below the base level for many years. I really don't care what the Nevada situation is, but when everybody here sings the same tune, about the deer herd and predators, that's a pretty strong case. I not a biologist, but it looks as if there is plenty of feed to sustain more deer in most southern foothills and they(the DWR) is so political I don't think they have the option to be free with their speech anyway.