Another mule deer discussion (mostly about predation)

[Deersman]

I know I know here we go again. Sorry, I'm bored and think about this all the time.

Let me preface by saying I don't take fish and game statistics as gospel. I tend to believe in general fish and game #s often can be manipulated to fit "the agenda" wherever or whatever it may be.

Seems to me 80% of the blame for declining deer herds often fall on habitat or some other issue related to weather. And predators only account for small share of the blame. I would contend it was just the opposite. Follow me here.

Utah's average deer population hovers around 300,000 for the last 15 yrs.

They claim a statewide average a little over 17% bucks I will help them out and call it 20%. (it also keeps the math simpler) So that makes 60,000 bucks leaving 240,000 doe. Number of fawn per 100 doe has averaged around 60 for the last decade.

So that means a ball park 144,000 fawns born each yr.

Now I find it very suspicious that you cannot get the Utah state cougar reports online. (its been down since Jan) But you can read the Utah Cougar Management Plan online and on page 7 it states Utah's cougar population was last estimated to be between 2528 to 3936 cougars. A second estimate of 2927 was generated.

So I will go with the later figure and call it 3000 cougar.

Many will say a cat can eat 50 deer per yr. I tend to believe this to be a close estimate. For those who disagree with 50 deer lets say 30.

So 3000 cougar that likely take 90,000 deer per yr. Remember we are only birthing 144,000 new ones at best. I wonder what coyote account for? Its probable that its at least 30,000 statewide. So now we are at 120,000.

Hunter harvest has hovered near 25,000 the last decade as well. And now you have a figure of 145,000.

Why would we allow a population of 3000 cougar. Why not 1000 cougar and up the amount of hunter harvest? To keep deer in check or increase the herd size.

 

[bucklover]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-25-10 AT 07:12PM (MST)[p]You might want to throw in road kill. Not sure what it is but it has a major impact. The problem Wy is having with elk may well be a factor in Utah for deer. Most calves are being killed by wolves, so very few young new breeder cows are coming into the picture. The old cows are getting past their prime so can no longer have calves. It's a double edged sword cutting away at the elk herd. We still have some areas with good, all be it old elk populations, but many area have practically been wiped out. The same may be happening with your fawns. I don't recall reading about how many doe hunts you have but I suspect not many, so your does are getting old also. Just another thing to put in you thought stew.

 

[2lumpy]

We've done this math for the DWR since 1984.

They know.

Go figure.

Makes one wonder why they are allowing the mule deer to decline.

What's more, the last three years in South Central Utah has experienced a stunning and accelerated decline in over all deer numbers. The Monroe, Pahvant, Fish Lake, Thousand Lake and the West side of the Boulder are so far down I'm not sure they'll ever have viable herds again. I fear they've lost 90% of our base herd. I've spent considerable time on the range this year and I didn't think it could get worse than it's been the last ten years, but was wrong, it's far worse again this year.

Winter counts will be of great interest this year, at least to the sportsmen.

Nice to see someone that's still worrying about it. Seems better to try for viable herds than the folks that simply say, "we'll never have large mule deer herds again, get over it!" Too much of that attitude to suit me.

Don't let my discouragement keep you from trying!

DC

 

[cannonball]

AMEN TO THAT!!! There is a quick solution however, double the price of a deer tag and cougar tag. Half the price of an elk permit and watch the DWR in action.

 

[2lumpy]

CB

You been up to Upper Box Creek yet. Has the moss sunk?

The browns will be running into the Fremont any day. Let's give it a go.

DC

 

[Deersman]

UBC still has moss.

Big Lake is fishing well. So was Deep as of 2 weeks ago although the water is getting very low.

 

[Deersman]

Back on subject. Are you guys familiar with the Monroe Unit?

 

[2lumpy]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-25-10 AT 10:27PM (MST)[p]LAST EDITED ON Sep-25-10 AT 10:26?PM (MST)

CB's in Richfield, DC's in Glenwood. That means our houses are on the Monroe, we've spent a day or two in the quakez.

CB made me eat tube steak at Deep Lake 2 weeks back.

He got both boots stuck in the mud, he's older than me, by a lot! And...........he uses a clear bubble that he fills in a bucket cause he knows I'll boot him in if he stoops over to fill it in the lake.

I, on the other hand, are a purest, nothing but the hair and hackle for me. To hell with how many fish he caught!

Just when the sun sets and the fish move into my range, he wants to go look for unicorns, he's like that!

DC

 

[Deersman]

What do you know about the cougar study going on Monroe?

I have heard all kind s of crazy thing about it. Its hard to find any info on the subject.

I cant help but think there is something very fishy when it comes to the DWR and there outlook on cougar. Same with SFW, RMMF and the UBA surely they know the math also. Why are they so silent on the issue.

I read in the Utah Cougar Plan. One of there primary issues and concerns is to "Educate public about true relationship between cougar and prey populations."

Sounds like they want a propaganda campaign. I'm certain the message isn't that a healthy cougar population is reason Utah will never see more than 300,000 deer ever again. Or the reason we will eventually have a total LE hunting system in Utah for all big game.

Is there a Mule deer outreach and education education program.

Because there is one for cougar to "increase awareness and appreciation within the general public for the role of cougars in Utah's ecosystem by 10% through 2021.

Also the DWR intends to "contact a minimum of 30% of the big game hunting public that belongs to sportsmen's organizations about the relationship between cougar and prey populations."

I think ever single big game hunter should read Utah's Cougar Management Plan. I cant help but get a sinister feeling from it.

 

[2lumpy]

If:

300,000 deer = 3000 cougars, then 100,000 deer = 1000, and then 600,000 deer = 6000 cougars.

You tell me, if you like cougars, which management plan would you support.

Without needing to research the current cougar plan, all you need to know is this: a number of years ago the DWR was called the Utah Fish and Game Department and "they" changed it to the "Utah Department of Wildlife Resources" to more closely reflect the mission of the department. The change in name should explain a lot to anyone trying to figure out who these folks are and their objectives.

DC

 

[cannonball]

2Lump

Haven't had the time to go fishing since you and I went. Had deer on my mind, put a heater and soft doors on the RZR so I tried it out on the Pauns during the middle of the week. There was a ton of people (non-hunters) out there. Does anyone work any more. I would not have shot any of the buck we saw. We saw some, but they had very small horns. I hope the management hunt is not driving the numbers and quality of deer down because if it is we're doomed. Now the management hunt is on, they (BGB, DWR)will never change it even if it's bad.

Give me a break on the fishing - purist - HA!! If they were only taking a worm you would be fishing with a worm - now me - I only fish with a fly one way or the other. As for filling my bubble with water using a bucket, I'm not dumb. I'm not going to stoop over like you do until the blood rushes to my head and I fall in the drink.

I'm ready to go fishing - there are not many deer out there to see. I sure glad my kids have other outside interests to go along with hunting. I hate them to go down the path of frustration!!!! like I have with the deer herds.

 

[Deersman]

Where are outdoor retailer and manufactures on this issue.

Cabela's, Sportsman's warehouse, Hoyt Easton, Browning, Barnes and 1000s of others.

Seems to me they have more to gain from a viable deer herd than anyone. Remember when Utah's deer hunt was an industry?

I wonder if a letter to a few board members and stock holders of these corporations would spark some interest in change?

I hear Governor Herbert is open to change for the right price.

 

[cannonball]

Change??? Change??

Very little chance. Over the years the only change I've seen is when the ranchers complained to the biologists. They would call them in the middle of the night and complain - they would see them in the mountains and complain - they would see them while they were eating lunch and complain. Then the hounders would complain about not being able to find a lion day and night. Then the rights of animals would complain the same way.

GETTING THE PICTURE! I think they just took the route of least resistance - the biologists, the game wardens, and the top dog in the DWR.

The deer herd is finished as we have known it. California here we come - patterned you. Sad, isn't it.

 

[2lumpy]

Deerman,
If you doubt CB, find out who caused the DWR to cancel the Plateau Doe Antelope hunt. It wasn't the sportsmen, nope. It wasn't the businessmen in Loa or Bicknell, nope. It wasn't buying the Gov, nope. It wasn't the Forest Service or BLM habitat scientists, nope. It wasn't the SFW, the RMEF, or the Wild Life Federation, nope. Wasn't PETA, or the Friends of Animals or the Humane Society, nope

So..........who?

Could it have been a letter from the Plateau Sheepmen? Could it have been a letter that said they were worried that the angry and crazy hunters would express their frustration by shoot sheep? (paraphrased)

Could it be the sheepmen where the only ones pressuring the DWR to remove the antelope?

Could it be the sheepmen know full well why sportsmen are frustrated?

Or, for some unexplainable reason the DWR recognized their mistake and for the first time in the last 50 attempted to right a wrong?

Which do you think happened?

Which group do you think is controlling Utah fish and game decisions?

Who do you need to sell your concerns to?

Best wishes in your quest, I truly hope you succeed!

DC

 

[Deersman]

I come by it honestly. I cant help it its in my blood.

And I obviously have a thick skull because I have been beating my head against this wall for decades.

I have yet to talk to a big game hunter who doesn't want more deer.

As far as I am concerned this is a Western States issue not just Utah.

 

[bearman]

I can't answer for Utah as I'm from Nevada. Although here in Nevada Lion's are not a problem nor are the coyote. Habitat is by far the biggest problem. Then we have a long list of other factors. I did hunt Utah this year for 21 days for archery deer and not one time did I see a lion, lion sign or any dead deer buried. I did see lots of Pinion and Juniper covered hills.

 

[swbuckmaster]

there are no lions in Utah

here is what I find on a regular baisis in Utah. This is this summers scouting.

Last year I saw at least 4 elk kills and several more deer kills.

There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL

 

[NVBighorn]

Neither animal has the nose eaten off. The nose is usually eaten by lions. just sayin...



Back on topic I have one question. Is that 300,000 deer population estimate a post winter estimate? If so you need to look at the post birth pulse population number before you start deducting dead deer. So that means you start out at a much higher summer figure than 300,000, more like 450,000.

 

[Deersman]

I suppose we could split hairs and muddy the conversation about how to exactly quantify how many fawns are born in spring.

Utah has a cougar population as high as 4000 cats and as low as 2500. If a cat eats as few as 25 deer and as many as 50 per yr.

So a high figure of 200,000 and low of 62,500 deer eaten by cats.

That may be practical if the goal is to reduce or limit a deer herds size. I thought the idea was to increase the deer herd.

I want to know what would be wrong with having less cats and letting hunters harvest more. Even if the goal is to reduce or limit the herd.

I certainly don't like the idea of my conservation dollars going toward cougar food. Restore habitat? For what? More cats?

Would a population of 1000 cats be unhealthy? I would think that they would be fat cats. Less competition, bigger territories, more game.

 

[Deersman]

Sorry NVB your going to have to spell that out better for me.

Utah does their counts (extrapolations) based on winter observations. So when they figure 300,000 deer its a potential 145,000 fawns.

Sure the herd may be a potential 450,000 but it comes back to 300,000 by the next winter count.

Where did the 145,000 gain go?

 

[SMELLYBUCK]

Would anyone support some mountain ranges go to general cougar hunts as opposed to the le hunts? I'd like to see a few ranges just allow open cougar hunts where anyone can buy a tag and fill it. I wonder what would happen to the deer population in these areas.

 

[NVBighorn]

I wasn't arguing with your point. Is was just making sure you were beginning at the right spot. I think you'd probably find that 150,000 fawns being born is way too low. Who knows what the fedrtility rate is but I bet the fawns being born are way higher than 50%. I'm not talking about fawns going into or coming through winter. I'm talking about fawns being born because they figure into those 50 deer a week being eaten. Secondly I don't think youd really want huge survival rates adding 150,000 deer a year.

 

[bearman]

Who said there was no lions? Where are the lion tracks in your pictures and why aren't they buried? Who says lions eat 25 to 50 deer a year? What if they eat 5 deer a year? They eat tons of porcupine's and many other things. We have some dumb azz people here in Nevada called hunters alert that think all the problem is predators.

 

[Deersman]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-27-10 AT 12:39PM (MST)[p]Actually in Utah we now have a Harvest Objective tag. Available over the counter 365 days a yr for most units.(finally they have opened Monroe and I fully intend to take advantage of it.)

I think one of the problems is complacency on part of big game hunters. It seems the propaganda campaign has lulled folks into thinking cougar have no effect on a deer herd and habitat is the primary issue to tackle.

The same for coyotes as big game hunters I believe we should all take part in predator control. How many deer hunters actually go out and shoot yotes in the winter? Not as many as should. And often they go to the desert to do it. I hunt yotes right in the same place I hunt deer. And do quite well. 9 yotes so far in 2010.

In the past I have proposed a reward system for filling a cougar tag or a bounty for yotes in form of deer tags.

There is no campaign to inform the hunting general public that if a range is not at capacity. Then reducing the predation rate will result in a net gain in prey populations.

I'm in favor of deer herds at or near capacity.

That brings the question. Is given range at capacity? Well there are symptoms to over capacity. And we see none of them on 90% of units in Utah. Winter kill being the most obvious. Not just in a severe winter.

 

[NVBighorn]

ok without even getting into whether or not lions are the limiting factor on deer...

How many guys ever see a lion that they could kill? If you gave every Tom ##### and Harry a lion tag how many do you think would get killed? I bet damn few. Here in NV there is no limit on lion tags overall and each person can buy two. There are only harvest objectives which govern how many lions are taken each year. Very few are killed by all the "interested sportsmen" who buy a tag with the hopes of shooting one. Almost all lion harvest is done over dogs either by sport harvest or animal damage control.

 

[Deersman]

I have never seen one in my lifetime. I would expect very few cats would be taken just by sight. Never the less A guy should be able to shoot one if he did see one.

And I don't expect to just spot and stalk one. I will hire some hounds to chase one for me.

 

[walleye1121]

I am convinced that the Utah DWR has no clue how many deer they even have.

They pull numbers from a hat and unbelievably they always come up with about 300,000 deer.

I have hunted the same mountain for the past seven seasons and know it pretty well. It has been on a steady decline and really hit rock bottom this season. But, the population numbers the DWR posts paint a much rosier picture. They believe there is actually a 25% increase over the past seven seasons. I too call BS.

Here are some other interesting numbers from the available annual reports.

I can only use data from 2002-2008. The 2009 info has not been posted.

5 units were shortened this year due to low deer populations.

Cache with a population of 13,700 and an objective of 25000
Ogden with a population of 5500 and an objective of 11000
South slope Vernal with a pop. of 11300 and objective of 13000
Oquirrh Stansbury with a pop. of 9000 and an objective of 10600
Monroe with a pop. of 6300 and an objective of 7500

So, Cache is at 55%, Ogden is at 50%, but South slope is at 87%,
Oquirrh is at 85% and Monroe is at 84%.

But according to their numbers many units are much worse off than these.

Central mountains Manti is 52%
Central mountains Nebo is 49%
Wasatch mountains Currant Creek is 54%
Plateau is 53%


I could go on, but it is pointless. Why do they never have to justify these numbers?

When will it change?

 

[travishunter3006]

i heard they pulled 42 cats off the pahvant and relocated them... dont know why they didnt just kill them... or issue more tags, etc...

 

[Deersman]

Walleye, I think your spot on with the DWR purposed statistics. I think the reality is much worse than what the published #s indicate.

But its all we have and to try and convince anyone of anything based on hypothetical figures is pointless. What is astounding to me is the dismal picture is painted even with Utah's generous deer counts.

Someone mentioned porcupines. Good point. I remember you could see a dozen pigs a day while out in the woods up until the early 90's. Now I'm lucky to run into one per yr.

Is it just coincidence that the porcupines decline parallels the deer decline? And LE cougar went into effect in 1990.

Is porcupine habitat in danger?

 

[walleye1121]

I don't see porcupines anymore either. I've never really thought about why.

Isn't it crazy that the population numbers in their own annual report paint such a wonderful picture of the Monroe deer population. Everyone has heard how poor it is on Monroe and they have it running very close to the long term objective.

Far better than the statewide average.

 

[larzmang]

Does anyone know if the DWR holds public meetings? I wouldn't mind showing up and voicing some concerns I've read on this topic. Makes me wanna do my research and see what the DWR has to say in response to the questions posted here.

You're all thinking it, but I'll say it. Sasquatch. He's single handedly ruining the Utah deer population and would be doing the same to cougars, but reports say he's allergic to cats.

 

[travishunter3006]

have you ever counted stars? star gazers will count the number of stars with in a certain area and then multiply the number of areas that fit into the night sky... i think this is how they guestimate the deer population here in utah.. they get out in the winter, count the number of deer they see in ten square miles and multiply that by the number of square miles there are in that area.... so, its like counting how many donuts there are in utah and starting at krispy cremes and using this method... it just over inflates a little...


on the subject of porquipines, east canyon is teaming withthem... i saw probably 25 i one day.... all in the tops of trees. maybe by the way the dwr counts there are millions of them here in utah as well???

 

[bearman]

You have never seen a lion but "think" there is to many. Yes they have public meetings. I too used to spout off about things I didn't know about. Although I thought I did. I got my own hounds and started hunting. Then started going to all wildlife meetings and also spent hundreds of hours talking with biologist. I have flown on deer and elk counts. I have spent the last fifteen years studying wildlife and habitat. I am doing every thing I can for wildlife and sportsmen.

We have many problems facing deer. Lions and coyotes are only a small part and in many places not one at all. Do you know that a doe will abort her fetus? To much pressure, not enough feed or one of many other problems. The land scape is ever changing and that means so will our wildlife.

In Nevada we have many places over grazed bad. Sportsmen will never be able to do anything about this in Nevada. Ranching can be a good thing or a bad thing for wildlife. When it hurts wildlife there is nothing you can do, there is to much political control.

 

[NVBighorn]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-27-10 AT 04:23PM (MST)[p]>You have
>never seen a lion but
>"think" there is to many.

Now that is funny! Too many lions, too many sasquatches, too many ghosts. Never seen one but...


25 porcupines in one day?!?!?! I bet I haven't seen 25 live porcupines in my life! Maybe you should be worried about the damn trees. Import a few lions to eat them.

Where oh where is nvmuley. He loves this discussion.


edit: Deerdude, you say you will hire someone with hounds. What does a good guided lion hunt go for these days? Now how many lion haters will spend that? Not to mention put out the effort required.

 

[Team_UNC]

lmfao... humans are a bigger threat to deer than Lions. Not sure on the #'s but Id bet more deer are killed by cars than by lions.

 

[isayNUNYA]

Seen 7 lions that were not over dogs. Most of them didnt make it through the winter.

 

[travishunter3006]

i saw those 25, could have been 10 or so, but 25 sounds cooler on forums, but i really did see a ton up east canyon. in all honesty i never have seen any in trees like that before and they were all up in the tippy tops... cool to see

 

[Deersman]

Well we know humans harvest aprox 25,000 deer per yr.

Just how many deer do you think are hit by cars in Utah per day?
10, 20, 50, 100. Even at 100 (which is ridiculously high) that's only 36,000 deer per yr. Where are the other 80,000 deer going each yr?

I have however seen 1000s of predator kills over the yrs. I never seen a grizzly bear while working in Glacier NP and Yellowstone. Does that mean they aren't there?

I don't think we need to debate the elusiveness of a cougar. They are about as stealthy as they come. Just as you know NVBH you need a dog to effectively hunt them.

 

[Deersman]

>
> We have many
>problems facing deer. Lions and
>coyotes are only a small
>part and in many places
>not one at all. Do
>you know that a doe
>will abort her fetus? To
>much pressure, not enough feed
>or one of many other
>problems. The land scape is
>ever changing and that means
>so will our wildlife.
>

In Utah we had a bad winter 92. When the deer herd was reduced nearly in half due to winter kill. From just under 600,000 statewide to the present day 300,000. Are you suggesting a genetic switch was thrown in Mule deer. Causing them to be susceptible to human activity aborting fetus left and right. And the mule deer habitat that went to crap overnight in 1993. With less than half of its modern day herd has not made a recovery in 20 yrs. When over the coarse of the last 70 yrs it has seen dozens of overgrazing droughts and floods and made dozens of recoveries.

 

[bearman]

What is the one hundred year average of Utah deer herd? How many in the 1900, 1910 and so on until today? If you have never hunted lions before than you have no clue just guessing. I have yet to hear from a lion hunter that feels there is a lion problem. The houndsmen know first hand if there is a lion problem in an area. There are areas that could benefit from lion control but most often not.

 

[swbuckmaster]

The front also has loads of porcupines. In fact the quakey trees are getting destroyed by them. They eat the bark all around the tree. I hear them at night eating when Im trying to sleep. they sound like a dog eating a bone.

so why does the front have lots of cougars, lost of coyotes, lots of deer "at carrying capacity", lots of moose, starting to get loads of elk, tons of grouse, high buck to doe ratios, no winter range, high mortality with cars, no sfw money, Henry quality bucks, and lots of porcupines. you can shoot a doe if you want also. So what could be the missing clue? its not rocket science is it?
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2+2=4 it all adds up in my mind!

Ooooo its rifle hunters. maybe some of these guys just get tired after they cant find a buck so they start blasting anything and everything else.

However I do get sick of seeing dead critters in June/July. I also get sick of seeing lion tracks in the winter months which seem to always be following the buck tracks.

There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL

 

[2lumpy]

Deersman,

Ain't this cool!

And the fiddle plays while the smoke thickens................

I hear their plannig in some debauchery over at the Colosseum this weekend. What say we...................

Is there any wonder sportsmen get our butts handed to us. Darned if we don't deserve it.

Sad, sad.

DC

 

[PleaseDear]

I would like to see the 2 point pools (Pref-Gen tags & Bonus LE tags) be combined to only 1 point pool.

5 choices and you would loose your points if you drew your 1st or 2nd choice.......get rid of the 2 year waiting period.

Kinda move people in and thru the point pool faster.

Robb

 

[Deersman]

I would rather not go into a rant about the houndsman. I will just say they hunt cougar for crying out loud. Why would they complain about to many cats. Never have and never will and I don't expect them to. My condolences to them but the pass time of 50 houndsman should even flicker to the benefit to what a viable deer herd generates.

And after reading the new Cougar Management Plan its obvious they are very adept at propaganda. Not to mention they only have 50 guys to let the cat out of the bag. (pun intended)

Utah's current deer herd is far far closer to pre settlement days. Than to is hay day during the 50s 60s and 70s. Do you want to know another neat fact. So is the cougar population. It is at its traditional highs like before settlement.

I'm not looking to have the cougar exterminated. I do however realize them as natures tool to prevent over population in several species in the west. Primarily deer.

My contention is that we are stewards of the land and we have the ability and responsibility to manage game in a sustainable manner. I am not calling for 2 million deer. But there has got to be some middle ground. I am calling for a reduction of predators for a sustained period to allow for a increase in the mule deer herd at or near its true capacity. And the DWR's mule deer objectives would be a nice start.

I'm not talking fluke science. Read the DWR big game report it even goes on to say predation reduction can be used to increase a herd size but it must be sustained and it is costly.

Well I have a solution for the DWR that is free of charge for predator control. Include filling a cougar tag in the DH program let that fulfill hrs. And Coyote ears as well. They could even get real radical and implement a bonus system that awarded points or general season deer tags as bounty. Free to the DWR they could even charge you for the tag and you would happily do it.

 

[bearman]

How old are you deersman? Do you live in the city?

 

[larzmang]

I have never seen a lion, nor do I think there are too many. Call me ignorant, but my concerns for the situation are relatively new due to this discussion. Nevertheless, because I enjoy participating in an array of hunting activities throughout the year and throughout my state this is an issue I choose to get involved in. I understand that there is more to the depletion of deer herds than lions on their own and I'm not arguing that fact.

You're the manbear, and you have years of biological, deer flyer miles, aborting fetus' experience; so would you tell someone with a legitimate concern to not worry about going to DWR meetings because they just don't know what they're talking about? Or should they go and show the DWR that hunters of all skill levels want answers?

 

[Deersman]

I'm old enough to identify what was and what is. And I spent enough time on the mtn to have a valid concern.

I was able to dig up another statistic be it old data. But it should give us some kind of picture on the amount of deer we are loosing to the highway.

Yearly Summary of Reported Deer Highway Mortality

Year Deer
1990 3185
1991 2230
1992 2039
1993 936
1994 1356
1995 609

Now these are reported incidents. I assume there are much more that go unreported. It would be nice to have some more current data that reflects how many deer are hit when the herd is as low as 300,000. You can see it falls below 1000 in 93 and 95. I would estimate it currently falls below 1000.

You must admit predation is one factor that exists in every single unit in Utah. Highway is certainly not the reason for the Book Cliffs not being able to attain objective. Its not loss of winter range either. Whats going on with the predator population out there? The answer is thriving. Could this be the factor why in spite of wonderful range and low human activity and a very LE deer hunt. The herd is in static and cant reach even the lowered objective.

If predators are at capacity doesn't that mean there prey base should stay stagnant and if they are over capacity prey base will drop until the prey population drops.

Bearman, You biologist type love to flaunt you Additive and Consumptive. Can you disprove this dynamic.

Again I just think that we should and need not let the majority of the mule deer to go to predation. I rather reduce cougar and coyote predation and increase hunter harvest's to keep the deer in check.

Sorry this city boy needs to go golfing. Were the big bucks still are. Talk at you later.

 

[bearman]

Predation can have an impact but not usually. I deal with a few people like you that scream predators that have no knowledge about it at all. I have studies that show predation has no impact on deer at all. I don't think this is fact but I do spend around 180 days a year in the field and don't feel predation is a big problem. Yes I do think every sportsmen should get involved in going to every meeting. Then they will educate them self and not talk about what they know nothing about. Why is it that the Mule deer foundation's mission statement isn't predation over habitat.

 

[2lumpy]

Nonsense Bear, pure BS and utter nonsense. Damn my lying eyes.

"predation has no impact on deer at all"

Was the study you did on the BYU campus?

The "only" study ever done that has been done that showed "predation has no impact on deer at all" is a study on a location that had not deer!

Ask the Northern Idaho hunters what they think of a study that concludes "predation has no impact on deer at all"?

Bear, did you find one of those mountain weed patches with a black pipe network. If you spend 180 days in the field and don't "feel" predation is a big problem, your boss needs to reconsider his investment.

Sorry man, it's not my nature to go off on anyone but there are people who are going to read this and believe you.

Course, I knew all along you are just joking, so was I.

DC

 

[bearman]

Do predators kill deer? Yes they do. Have they always been around killing deer? yes. That is not our biggest problem with the deer herd! There are many factors. We as sportsmen are best served by not having people that have no idea whats going on. So maybe you guys should stay in your office that one week a year you get out. I'm done here, I to started talking because people would read the BS about lions. Some people just have no commonsense like yourself.

 

[tradarcher]

If there are to many lions then go buy some hounds and tell all of your friends to buy lion tags. Hunt your ass off all winter long and see how many lions you kill. You will be very suprised at few few you will see let alone kill.

 

[travishunter3006]

wait, are people serious when they say that predators have no impact on deer? thats like saying peanut butter doesnt go with jelly. You need to get out to a SFW meeting and a guy will get up on stage and scream about wolves until he is blue in the face( a little to radical for me)on how they will demolish elk herds, etc. i would believe you if you said that all predators are preying now on grass tree huggers... but seriously, no impact??? WOW.

 

[swbuckmaster]

>If there are to many lions
>then go buy some hounds
>and tell all of your
>friends to buy lion tags.
>Hunt your ass off all
>winter long and see how
>many lions you kill.
>You will be very suprised
>at few few you will
>see let alone kill.

I did just that. I picked up a lion tag and picked the worst area or best draw odds and got a tag. I hunted for 4 hours and killed a tom. Man if I only would have picked a premium cat area I could have killed a b&c cat in 1 hour of hunting.

seriously if you cant find a cat with your dogs you probably have a dogs like these.

The only problem in cat hunting is finding a big enough cat you want to put your tag on. If we managed all the cat units like the Henry's tags we could never be able to hunt deer.

There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL

 

[tradarcher]

I just happen to hunt all winter long with the guys you hunted with and the lion you killed wasn't just luck. I don't think you have a clue how many hours went into killing the lion you killed.

 

[tradarcher]

No you didn't go buy your own dogs and hunt them. You have no idea how much time and effort went into killing the lion you killed. The bookcliffs isn't the worst cat unit, and im pretty sure it was more than four hours.

 

[tradarcher]

And after you cut the track and left it how many miles were covered lokking for a better one and no other tracks found.

 

[adamsoa]

Ok trad archer, you are right it is very hard but, -----I do know that SW came out the night before to stay at my house so that he could leave early to go on the hunt, and by the time my family got back home for the night he had his cat skinned and was waiting at my house------- I'm just saying.

respect my authorita

 

[swbuckmaster]

I never said I had dogs.

The guys I went with didnt have coon humping dogs either.

I know exactly how much time goes into training their hunting dogs. That's why I don't have my own dogs "no time".

We did cover lots of miles, and there were other tracks cut. Just not buy us. We had several trucks cutting tracks.

The bookcliffs is one of the worst units to kill a b&C cat on I did the research. It is also one of the easiest LE draws. I new what kind of a hunt I was in for and it turned out just as I hoped it would.

I will use my guides again when I draw for bear or cats again they were awesome guys. Major props to them for knowing how to get it done! Next time though I will have my kids with me though!

There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL

 

[cannonball]

Bearman, With a handle like that I'm sure you probably run dogs. I'm going to sound like a cracked record, but I'm going to say it again. A retired DWR biology said he thought one of the biggest problems we have today is the hounders who complaint about there not being any cougars when in reality they are there.

The second year of the dedicated sportsmen program I was in Cedar to the meeting there and another DWR biologist said that hunting lions did not help the deer herd. The room was packed and not a sole spoke up. Well I did and I was libid. He said now hear me out. The hounders who take the hunter after a cougar - DO THEY SHOOT THE FEMALE - NO!! They shoot the biggest male they can find. That male can hundle more than one female during breedig time and the tree'd and released female becomes smarter and further away from the road. You know as well as I do that most hounders start by cutting a tract from the road.

As suggested I wish a few mountain ranges were open to cougar hunting. They're such a reclusive animal I don't believe anyone (DWR Biologists or anyone) knows how many cat are there. The only thing I know from being here these many years is that cats are seen in the valley NOW and NEVER BEFORE has that been the case. To me thats a very strong case along with the fact I'm in the mountains less and have seen 3 cats in the last 15 years and was in the mountain more the previous 40 years without seeing one cat.

 

[Deersman]

That is exactly what I would like to see.

A few or even single unit opened to heavy cougar control for a sustained period of time. As it stands there is not one single public unit anywhere in the Western United States that I'm aware of. That has been managed for a low cougar population.

May I suggest Monroe as the guinea pig. After all it fits all the so called "triggers" for a reduction cougar.

 

[bearman]

Like I said many times you guys that think there are tons of lions have no clue. fifteen to twenty years ago there was ten times the number of lions. Can a person go out and get lucky and cut a lion track first day out "yes". For the most part in Nevada you can go seven days or more with out cutting a track. Houndsmen do a hell of a lot more then drive the roads. They can out hike most people out there by far. My guess would be you guys are young kids that live in the city. You guys have no clue!!

 

[2lumpy]

Bearman,
I owe you a full apology. I am very sorry that I did to you today what I preach against. Please forgive me for attacking you so personally. I know we all see the world from the prism of our own experiences and you are just as entitled to express your experiences and observations as any other sportsman.

I was completely out of line with me comments, passion is no excuse for my behavior. There is never any excuse for that kind of behavior. I believe you want the best for all wildlife and the outdoor lifestyle and I allowed myself to do the vary thing I dread seeing others of our community do.

As one sportsman to another, I am ashamed and sorry.

DeLoss Christensen

 

[bearman]

That has to be the best apology I have heard! I am sorry for saying anything degrading. I have been going to every county and state meeting in Nevada for some many years now I cant remember. I got involved because I truly care about our wildlife.

 

[cannonball]

Lumpy,

Does this mean you agree with Bearman? Does this mean you are a youngster and from the city? Does this mean your boys embellished when they hiked above Burrville and said they saw a lion and coyote and no elk or deer? Does this mean you don't know the mountains around you? Just exactly what does this mean?

As for me I've been around for a number of years and just an o' country boy who sees what he sees and tries to sort fact from fiction. The fact is the deer in the south are now going by the way of the deer north of the Payson/Dixon line - and thats down - NOW THAT'S A FACT! And I still maintain it is from predators and I and you both have been in them thar hills a long, long time that you readers can bank on....No city boy here.

 

[Deersman]

If you truly cared about our wildlife. Wouldn't you support even one unit to be managed for low predators just to see if it would help? Or is it you care about wildlife but don't care about sportsman or their concerns?

I see on the news tonight about the over population of deer in Bountiful. What that deer herd need is a good predator base. All that human activity and pressure isn't causing those doe to abort there fawns.

 

[bearman]

Yes take a unit or more kill every lion in it. What you will find is no difference or very little. Do you have a clue how much it cost to kill predators and not see any difference. Here in Nevada we did it in an area for five years and spent millions of dollars. What did we get less fawn to doe's than before. How many lion kills have you or the few others that think lions are killing every deer seen?

 

[2lumpy]

CBalls,
My experience, more or less, gives me no right to berate another member of the outdoor community. Teasing and provoking like stinky and b-bop enjoy are fine, what I did is unnecessary, counter productive and immature.

We have got to try to come together some how or the nay-sayers will be proven right. You know how I feel about mule deer. Bear is correct when he say's that predation is not the only reasons we have lost our mule deer.

Besides predation in the last 40 years we've added these things and more to mule deer impact.

Roads that a Lexus can take to the top of nearly every mountain.
ATV trails that penetrate every drainage and rock pile.
Hundreds of mountain cabins.
97,000 3x20 rifle scopes
Calibers that drop 15 inches in 400 yards.
1500 yard range finders.
80 mm spotting scopes
Windage calibrators that fit in your watch pocket.
Fifth wheel trailers we and shower, shave and live in for weeks at a time.
Muzzleloaders that can kill like a 30-30.
Bows that release to 20lbs and fire a carbon bolt at 320 feet a second.
Vacations that last for 3-6 weeks a year.
Hunting seasons that run from Aug. through December
Wide spread wealth that allows every tag in the State to be purchased for a hundred times the current price. ( If Utah offered all 97000 tags to the highest bidder there are enough wealthy sportsmen in the country to out bid us for every tag, (a guess of course)
Two radios
Cell Phones
Satellite Phones
Google Earth.
GPS.
Topology maps on-line
Paraplanes
Internet Hunting Forums
Trophy Hunting Magazines
Troops of Guide associated spotters
Digital Cameras with 40 power optical zoom
Trail Cams that take 2000 images over a 4 month period.
Evolved hunter expectations.
Occupational Hunters.
Shed hunting pressures.
1080 poison regulations.
Demand for large antlers vs venison.
Vehicles that travel gravel roads at 70 mile per hour.
Freeway fences that block all winter range in many rural areas of the State.
Hunters that can easily hunt Logon as the sun comes up and Pine Valley as sun down on the same day. (and eat at Red Lobster for lunch)
Would managing cats, dogs and bears help mule deer, yes, in my opinion, I've said so many time but lets not fool ourselves, and this is where Bear is right, if we don't do something about these other issues that also impact mule deer, we still loose our deer.

So, yes, I want aggressive predator control but we must also have the guts to do something about these other equally overwhelming issues. There is more to this than just habitat and predator reductions. But just because we may not be able to control all of them should not keep us from doing what we can, where we can.

Or so it seems to this old man, who only gets out a day or two a year.

DC

 

[Deersman]

What unit and where can I find statistics? To make the case that a unit void of cougar for 5 yrs resulted in less deer.

And I wouldn't propose the DWR pay trappers to control predators. I would start with unlimited OTC on given unit. And if I didn't get enough interest I would propose a bonus for harvesting in that unit. Absolutely free of charge to the DWR and hunting public.

My beef is that serious predator control has never been on the table since 1990. And 100s of millions have been spent on habitat and we still preside over a dwindling deer herd. Meanwhile just about every other big game species continues to thrive. Unless they are on the cats menu as well. (sheep, pronghorn)

There is no undisputable data I have ever seen that shows low predation results in stagnant or declining mule deer populations. But there is a mountain of data that will point to the contrary.

 

[cannonball]

Lumpy,

Are you a career politican? The list is long and it is quite accurate, but I believe you're just clouding the issue. Most units do not shoot doe, or very few, so ---- why are those numbers going down. Is the base unit too low? Is the habitat poor? Not enough watering holes? Yes, elk - are they influencing the deer herd for some reason? Encroachment - North yes - South a little, very little? Is it predators? A combination of all of the above?

Years ago on the Henry Mountains they could not maintain a deer herd. To save them, they just could not maintain that herd. They shot some 50 cougars off of that unit in some short ridulous amount of time and the herd came back.

I cannot see that it would cost a tremendous amount of money, or any money for that matter to open up a unit for cougar hunting. I just think they (DWR) are afraid to do it because it might be a success for the deer herd and then what would they tell us deer hunters.

Ain't going to happen - never will!!!

 

[cannonball]

By the way Deersman if you want fodder for research, talk to the people in Hanksville about their Henry Mountain. The old timers will give you an ear full. They remember the reduction of cats and what is did for their mountain.

 

[NVBighorn]

lumpy1,

Once again you have put in the argument stopping post. You have given a very comprehensive list of whats wrong with mule deer today. Thank you so much. You appear to be a rather wise man. Add in things like predation, drought, loss of winter range etc, etc and you have captured the problem. It is no single thing that a silver bullet will fix. And I'm sorry Deersman but many or most of these things are ADDITIVE to the problem, not compensatory.


Deersman,

one thing has not been mentioned here. Again I am neither arguing for or against predator control, but you are completely overlooking the political quicksand you are on advocating widespread killing of large predators. It just won't happen. Whether you care to admit it or not Utah is a very urban controlled political climate and you will play hell getting anything passed like you are proposing. Feel free to say here "the anti's be damned! We'll just take what's rightfully ours" or some other fairytale-1800-minded drivel. But the fact is you won't get it. The majority of people in this country don't give a damn whether you have mule deer to kill. In fact most wish you could not kill any. And yes, before you ask, they would rather see 10,000 lions in your state than 600,000 mule deer.

 

[4000fps]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-10 AT 08:51AM (MST)[p]Everyone is missing the key point...the western states do not want to increase deer numbers. If they did, they would shut down hunting for a bit, since man is still deer's #1 predator. Hunters want more deer so they can hunt them. The govt wants more hunters to make money. And the govt will make the money regardless of whether a hunter kills one or not. I imagine they would go into panic mode, and actually do something about deer numbers if you only had to pay for a deer tag if you harvested one.

Can you imagine how good the deer hunting would be even with only a two year moratorium on hunting? How about 5 years?

 

[Deersman]

You are talking about the 25,000 hunter harvests right.
1# predator?

What about a conservative 90,000 to Cougar, Coyote, Bear and If the biologist have there way Wolf.

 

[bearman]

Shouldn't you be in school right now? Once again you have no clue. East Humbolts in area 10 in Nevada was the predator removal. You listed other animals on the diet as not doing good. Antelope and bighorn sheep in Nevada are doing better than ever. I guess lion only eat deer? Nevada is open to lion hunting, OTC tags. Guess what doesn't matter. 90,000 deer killed please show me that count! There is no such count only speculation by people like yourself that have no clue. If you only grow up and start educating yourself you would see many studies that show that lions have little to do with deer numbers. Can a lion or lions affect some places or species "yes". Just not the normal thing. Your mind is already to full to learn, I guess you know it all. Typical teenager.

 

[swbuckmaster]

hunters only affect the buck population! you kill less bucks and you will see more bucks but the herd wont grow any faster!

Utah is a baby factory. Utah's deer look like a polygamist colony one buck to every 10 does. every 10 does has 2 fawns. The herd should be growing out of control.

So why isn't it? Predators are affecting it cause hunters don't kill does!

I've never seen bears until the last couple of years. Now I see them all the time. You here of how many cougars and bears end up on the news in peoples back yards. This didnt happen very often when I was a kid in fact I cant remember when it ever happend but happens often now.

Why are the rabbits non existent? If there were any rabbits you would probably have a few more fawns left over. But since there are no rabbits like there was several years ago you have the predators preying on the deer.


Ya predators don't have an effect on deer like wolves don't have an effect on elk!

There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL

 

[bearman]

You guys are so smart, your right it is the lions. They only eat deer thats why deer are declining but not elk, antelope or sheep. Only if you guys could run things. We would have millions of deer in the west. Maybe you guys could put on a class to educate all the people who have spent their life working on deer. I wonder how much time, school and age I would need to learn as much as you guys? My kids know more than you guys do.

 

[Deersman]

In Utah we have had all kinds of problems with our sheep. As a matter of fact the DWR has called for a reduction of cats effecting these herds.

And just recently a antelope hunt had an emergency closure due to under population.

If you told me that tying bells around deer would increase the herd but it would cost $5 millions dollars a unit. I would think it was crazy and wouldn't work. I wouldn't have such contempt for you and put up a major fight over decades. Now if you came up with a way to put bells on free of charge. I would say here's a unit do your bells and see if it works. If it did great if it didn't then shut up and put the issue to bed.

But then again all I want is for my and your family and friends to enjoy even a fraction of what we used to.

 

[NVBighorn]

Deersman, please give me your thoughts on what I had to say in post 70. How will you overcome that.

 

[Deersman]

LAST EDITED ON Sep-29-10 AT 06:33PM (MST)[p]I think its completely practical to call a cougar population below its maximum capacity healthy. In Utah the estimate is aprox 3000 cats. Would a population of 1500 be unhealthy? Why cant the objective population on cats mirror its primary food source population to fit our needs. There are many who would call Utah's current deer herd healthy. I am not saying 1500 is the magic number I will let the biologists and RAC figure that one out based on the best available science.

And as for the treehugging public that was worried about killing cougars. I would inform they are nowhere near endangerment and it was a part of managing a healthy population. And the tragic effects of over population.

To me a maximum capacity predator population results in less hunter opportunity directly.

I'm advocating not maintaining predators at maximum capacity unless the prey is at range capacity and there is a lack of hunter interest.

NBH, Whats your stance on Wolf in Nevada and Utah and elsewhere? Are they needed to keep our elk in check? Or do you believe humans can manage the herd from overpopulating with hunting?

 

[NVBighorn]

I'm gonna dissect your response as if I was a lion loving anti hunter. The kind you WILL encounter in this battle.

>I think its completely practical to
>call a cougar population below
>its maximum capacity healthy.

Your interpretation of healthy does not matter to me. If man wasn't killing all the deer the lions would be healthy.

>In
>Utah the estimate is aprox
>3000 cats. Would a population
>of 1500 be unhealthy?

To reach 1500 cats you would have to murder 1500. That is completely unaaceptable! To kill such a magnificent animal just so you can then in turn murder the helpless deer is wrong!

>Why
>cant the objective population on
>cats mirror its primary food
>source population to fit our
>needs.

Isn't that what the lions are doing in your example? Just enough deer reproduction to maintain a healthy lion population. Keeping the deer population in check. The killing of deer that is not necessary is by you hunters and you do it for pleasure. The lions were here first and are only doing what they need to do to survive.

>There are many who
>would call Utah's current deer
>herd healthy.

See previous response

>I am not
>saying 1500 is the magic
>number I will let the
>biologists and RAC figure that
>one out based on the
>best available science.

Really? Isn't it the best available science that is being applied today? Just doesn't happen to be the science you agree with.


>
>And as for the treehugging public
>that was worried about killing
>cougars. I would inform they
>are nowhere near endangerment and
>it was a part of
>managing a healthy population. And
>the tragic effects of over
>population.
>

Over population? Like you propose to have with deer? You can't have both Mr Deersman.


>To me a maximum capacity predator
>population results in less hunter
>opportunity directly.
>

Exactly what we would like to see. No need for humans to needlessly murder deer.

>I'm advocating not maintaining predators at
>maximum capacity unless the prey
>is at range capacity and
>there is a lack of
>hunter interest.

Maintaining the two in sync without hunting would be ideal
from my perspective.



>NBH, Whats your stance on Wolf
>in Nevada and Utah and
>elsewhere? Are they needed to
>keep our elk in check?
>Or do you believe humans
>can manage the herd from
>overpopulating with hunting?
>

As "NBH": I have no use for wolves. AGAIN I am not arguing that lions do not need to be controlled in some areas. I am merely trying to make you stop and think a little and take the emotion out of your argument and prepare you for the $hit storm you are running headlong into with the anti crowd.


As the anti: We love wolves. They are a magnificent animal with a place in the ecosystem.

 

[Deersman]

I would go ahead with my plans and leave it to the treehuggers to prove that cougar were being over hunted and under maximum capacity. Then battle them in court if needed. And I could do that with a fraction of the conservation dollars spent on habitat restoration.

 

[NVBighorn]

BUT! you have to get past them to ever publicly implement a plan to choose deer over cougars. There will be public hearings and YOU will have to prove your case. They have NEVER been made to prove theirs. ANYWHERE! Besides that the sportsmen won't even show up because, as a whole, we don't give a damn and are suspicious of everything our own game departments do and do not publicly support them. We will all be too busy hunting or fishing or playing sports and will figure "Ahhh, someone else will take care of me". You will never make it to court.

One of the biggest challenges facing lion hunting today is keeping it open, not whether or not they eat deer.

 

[bearman]

Nvbighhorn is right on the money. deerman you have NO science behind you at all actually just the opposite. Stick with trying to graduate high school then move on to wildlife biology 101.

 

[Wildman]

Comments like this are exactly why the thread "Blubbering Academics" was posted.

 

[Deersman]

NBH, Then I may do something like get rid of mandatory harvest reporting on cougars and leave things nice and vague as to what really is happening with cougar harvests. There is already a model to do that. Open cougar hunting on a regional basis. You know incomplete data. Like we have today in concern to deer mortality.

 

[cannonball]

Bearman go back to Lumpy's comments and learn.

 

[isayNUNYA]

How can DWR say lions don't have a huge effect on deer and sheep and then open ALL sheep units in Utah to year round Lion hunting with high quotas.
Lions were and are still targeted and largely removed from the Henry Mountain deer unit. Which also happens to be the best mule deer hunting in the world. Why would they do that if lions were not a problem?
Mule deer numbers in Utah started their decline in the early 80's funny but that is also when Lion hunting became a limited entry hunt and $25 dollar lion permits were no longer sold over the counter.
I'm not blaming lions for the total problem but they are a large portion of it. The article on predator-mediated competion in july/Aug issue of Muley crazy was excellent!
Asking a houndsman if lions are a problem is like asking Larry Flint if pornography is a problem. You already know what the answer is going to be.

Not a scientist just sayin.

P.S. BEARMAN I am "old enough" and I have a GED. I have also spent my fair share of time at the tree with some of the best lion and bear dogs around.

 

[swbuckmaster]

lol Larry flint is a good analogy.

lions don't have an effect on deer like wolves don't have an effect on elk.

There are no big bucks in Utah! LOL

 

[cannonball]

isayNUNYA, we need you as the spokesmen for the "SAVE THE MULE DEER FOUNDATION" for Southern Utah.

Just talking to some of the Sportmen who were archery hunting and others who went out on the opener of the ML hunt and the story was the same. From Boulder, Fishlake, Monroe, and if fact not a place did I find anyone who had said they had seen much. In fact they said it was down right poor, worst they have seen. These are people in the mountains at daylight and dawn.

 

[Deersman]

Come 2012 with statewide LE deer.

I propose the Monroe Mtn Deer hunters assoc. I can think of about 500 members right off hand.

 

[NVBighorn]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-01-10 AT 09:55AM (MST)[p]Not trying to dump gas on this fire but I saw something pretty cool a little over a month ago. I was with friends who were hunting cow elk with an archery tag in eastern Nevada. We were there 4 days. First morning there I glassed a big mature lion. My heart sank thinking this was gonna be bad for our hunt. A few days later we got trail cam pics of two younger lions watering on a guzzler about 5 miles from where I saw the big lion. What was funny about the whole thing is I saw more deer and especially more good bucks in those 4 days than I have seen anywhere in years. Keep in mind archery deer season was in full swing. Funniest part was on the same camera we saw cow elk, calves, bulls, does, fawns, small bucks and a bachelor group of 9 nice big mature bucks that came in to water on the same days as those lions. Clearly they did not get the memo.

I know it was an isolated example and I'm not suggesting anyone draw conclusions from it but it does kinda make me say "Hmmmm...".

 

[isayNUNYA]

That only makes sense. I wouldnt expect to see lions in an area with no food source.
Houndsmen say there are very few lions. True that may be. Maybe thats in direct relations to the lack of food source.
I do believe there are enough lions to keep deer from rebounding.

 

[cannonball]

Big Horn the only thing I can say is this ain't Nevada and we ain't in Dodge City. You are so spread out with different mountain ranges and different problems than Utah with all of your population mass in Las Vegas, most of who don't know what hunting is. I'm here to tell you with our road system here most, if not all, lion hunters here ride around in their trucks, with their dogs, until they cut a track in the snow, then chase. If it is a release hunt, don't you really think the lions learn from this experience and get further from the road and eat the deer which are further from the road and that's one of the reasons why the deer now live along side of the road (or in the valleys).

The only hounders I ever seen out away from the roads are bear hunters and that's a subject for a different day and topic and bear eat deer also.

One thing we can all agree on is that lions eat deer.

 

[NVBighorn]

> That only makes sense. I
>wouldnt expect to see lions
>in an area with no
>food source.
> Houndsmen say there are very
>few lions. True that may
>be. Maybe thats in direct
>relations to the lack of
>food source.

Wait! Which is it? Lots of lions means lots of deer? Or few lions means few deer? Or lots of lions means few deer? Or few lio... You are sort of contradicting yourself nunya.



> I do believe there are
>enough lions to keep deer
>from rebounding.

I too believe this on a case by case basis. I do not believe killing lions everywhere is the answer to all the mule deer woes in the west today.

 

[cannonball]

You're correct Nevada to the point of putting EVERYWHERE in the blog. The question at hand is knowing when it's the predator on those herds struggling for survival. There may be other reasons such as drought, etc, etc, only to have the predators finish the herd or reduce it to a point of no return.

Life is about options. Sometimes we make the right choices and sometimes we make the wrong ones, and some things we have very little control over. Cross those off of your list and move on and with deer for me on most units in Southern Utah top of the list is predators.

 

[bearman]

I'm friends with many wildlife biologists that work for the department of wildlife. They all went to school to be wildlife biologist because they love and care about what happens to wildlife. If it was as easy as killing lions they would be all for it. Mule deer foundation was formed to help mule deer and they don't think lions are the fix all. All you guys have a right to think what you want. How many of you have seen deer killed by a lion? How many and how did you know it was a lion kill? Predators are a necessary part of wildlife and belong here. If I felt for a second that lions was going to fix our deer herd I would kill every one of them.

 

[Deersman]

LAST EDITED ON Oct-01-10 AT 05:30PM (MST)[p]How many fawns have you actually seen aborted?

Do you see sick skinny deer?

Are there 1000s of deer running in town in winter?

We had a great spring and good summer moisture. How is this yrs fawn crop?

And you look to biologist and houndsman to tell us about cougar populations. After all they spend so much time afield. What about the sheepherders observations? I have yet to have one tell me no cats. Now the sheep owner might have a different program on how bad cougars are but the dude up in the hills 12 months a yr says "Mucho Puma aquie".

My best tool for finding plenty of yotes is the sheepherder that camps up behind Marysvale on the Monroe. And he has yet to let me down.

 

[mevertsen]

I guess I will jump on this with bearmand and nvbighorn.

I am a houndsmen, and we are fighting the same battle here in NV, as the original poster. "the lions are eating all the deer."

OK - so lets go kill lions.

Just remember, when you kill one, there is another to takes its place. It may take a while for it to get there, but it will get there.

In order to have a direct impact on the lion population, it would take a long time, of continuous harvest of lions to actually dent that population, and the population that feeds it.

I have been paying attention to the deer predation project in unit 014 here in NV, and also saw the BS with the one in 101, which showed no increase in doe/fawn ratios at all, and was never better than the control where there was not a project going on, and the sport harvest was negligable. It appears in 014 that they are constantly having to keep an eye on that unit, and I have yet to see any data that suggests the deer population is getting better, and they have been killing a lot of cats.

I offer this one challenge for people who think that lions are a problem.

Take one day per week, in the winter, pick a day. Every wednesday, friday, whatever, and go for a drive. Snow or no snow, windy or not. Drive the same route, every time, hit the same canyons, draws, etc. Do this in an area where you think there a "too many cats eating the deer."

Document each track you find, the weather conditions, the apparent track condition, etc, and take a photo of it, with a measuring device of some sort - the same one every time. If you travel the same route, and there are any cats there, you will get familiar with the cats, if it has kittens, if it is a rather large tom, etc. Also pay attention to birds, as this would indicate an abandoned kill site, or a dead animal from another cause, and hike to it. Document what it is, how fresh it appears in relation to the others you have found, and other pertinent information you find.

Also, on every third week, follow the tracks on foot for about 2 miles one way. See if you find any kills, where it has layed up, etc. Document and photograph that, with what is around it. A recent site where it was buried, obviouse struggle marks on the animal, crushed vertebrae or throat, etc.

Also, document every type of animal you see - mice, voles, chukar, porcupines, horses, elk, deer, etc, etc, etc.

I am betting that -

You will burn a lot of gas.

You will find few tracks indicating a "large" lion population

You will get very sore

You will find very few dead deer

You will find many other "snacks" that a lion might enjoy (if you walk)

You will get tired, say screw this and head home more than once

You will be glad you don't have hounds to take care of, don't "lion" hunt, and will still ##### because the lions are eating all the deer.

Later,

Marcial

 

[bearman]

Very true post! I'm from Elko Nevada. Deersman I want to go out with you so you can show me all the lion kills. I will spend two weeks with you every day we can look twelve hours each day. At the end I will pay for the fuel if you show me more than one deer killed by a lion. If you don't you pay for the fuel and shut your mouth about lions.

 

[cannonball]

Bearman,

You're reaching and stretching your argument way out there. Years ago I was on the Pahvant Range of mountains in Utah. If it makes any difference to you Nevada guys, that's the mountain range between Richfield and Filmore. Anyway, this was during the archery hunt. I could see some drag marks that went down to an out of the way place where a cougar had mostly buried a deer. One rain storm and a person would have never found that deer.

A few years before that a couple of freinds and myself were fishing upper box Creek above Koosharem, we were camped at lower box creek and had followed a path up which any hunter after a deer would have taken and was about a mile apart. Anyway our friend said he knew a short cut, which no deer hunter, would take. On the way down we smelled a stench and found where a cougar had a deer inside a pocket in the rocks. Our friend was so scared he slid down the mossy rock and got his sit down infected from the moss.

The point is that they were definately cougar kills and their cache was out of the way there nothing would find it. This does not alway happen, but does happen more than one may think.

We all know that hounders are a necessity for the health of the deer herd, but they don't seem to understand that a healthy deer herd means a healthy cougar population. I think the main problem in Utah is that when deer populations are down the predators can move on to the elk. The cat numbers stay up and continue to feed on the easier species (deer) until their numbers have depleted then move on to the elk and other game.