Pray for moisture….I was on Kaibab late hunt last year and it was tough. Some was conditions for the year but fawn recruitment has been down the last 2-3 years, no doubt, and herd numbers are down overall. I’m glad they’re lowering the tags, bummer for opportunity but good for quality in the long run. I hope that herd can rebound quickly
You're likely competing with at least 20 other NRs for the 3 permits that MAY go to NR in the Bonus round. Two more will be available in the random 1-2 passes.With 23 NR points and being 55 now I may never draw the late Kaibab.
Much has contributed to the decline in numbers....but remember the 2000 does tags they had for a few years? I wonder what they think of that BRILLIANT idea now????To help the herd rebound, the number of youth doe permits was reduced from 100 to 25 on 12AW
Yes -75 from 12a and -5 from each of the 13sDid they cut NR archery tags again too?
At 375 tags NR shouldn't have gotten more than 37 tags for the 12A archery hunt. At 300 tags NR shouldn't get no more than 30 so yes NR will lose at least 7 tags from last year to this year.Did they cut NR archery tags again too?
OW, I thought half of the NR tags were required to go to NR's in the Bonus Pass. The remaining half went tossed into the 1-2 Pass, and could be drawn by NR's or R's. But the max NR tags was limited to 10% of the total.You're likely competing with at least 20 other NRs for the 3 permits that MAY go to NR in the Bonus round. Two more will be available in the random 1-2 passes.
Right. There are 50 total tags for the late west Kaibab season. That means the possible NR total allocation would be 5 (10%). Half 2.5 rounded to 3 MIGHT go in the bonus pass. Depends on how many of the top point holders are NRs & what their number is in the plucking order among the residents with the same number of points.OW, I thought half of the NR tags were required to go to NR's in the Bonus Pass. The remaining half went tossed into the 1-2 Pass, and could be drawn by NR's or R's. But the max NR tags was limited to 10% of the total.
No problema.OK. That's different than what I thought. Not arguing. I just had a different understanding.
Thanks.
Yup. That was about the same as when my son & I had 12AW permits about 8 or 9 yrs. ago.Wow ,what a change. Just 4 years ago I had 12a west late tag and there were 100 tags .The Herd will come back ,they just need to quit so many JR. tags and pray for Precipitation.............BULL!
Back when they first started the large doe tag quotas (2000 tags). I spoke with the biologist and her number one reason for all those doe tags was the desire to increase the buck to doe ratio. I'm sure that wasn't the only reason, but it was clearly the top of her list. I specifically brought up the argument that she might reduce the herd to a point at which it took the "cushion" out of it. This in turn would hamper its ability to recover from unforeseen events in the future. I specifically brought up issues like - Harsh winter, drought, disease, fire...etc. Been going up there since the 90's and it has been painful to watch. Now ya through a severe drought into the mix and it's simply very SAD! They have been SLOWLY reducing the doe tags for several years now. Given the current status of the herd, I am baffled that there are ANY doe tags available now.Yup. That was about the same as when my son & I had 12AW permits about 8 or 9 yrs. ago.
I haven't spoken with anyone at the dept. for a while now, but one reason they have continued to kill does is to protect whatever decent winter habitat that's left. I'm guessing that is also a thing of the past. We'll see when the 2022 hunt regs come out next month.
Yup. If I recall, that was way back when they decided to try for more 'quality' there.Back when they first started the large doe tag quotas (2000 tags). I spoke with the biologist and her number one reason for all those doe tags was the desire to increase the buck to doe ratio. I'm sure that wasn't the only reason, but it was clearly the top of her list. I specifically brought up the argument that she might reduce the herd to a point at which it took the "cushion" out of it. This in turn would hamper its ability to recover from unforeseen events in the future. I specifically brought up issues like - Harsh winter, drought, disease, fire...etc. Been going up there since the 90's and it has been painful to watch. Now ya through a severe drought into the mix and it's simply very SAD! They have been SLOWLY reducing the doe tags for several years now. Given the current status of the herd, I am baffled that there are ANY doe tags available now.
I have awesome memories of archery hunting the Kaibab in the late 80s and early 90s. Based on my own and other's recent experiences, lowering tag numbers is the right path, but to get it back to somewhere even close to what it was will take 12+ years. Tag number reductions will have to remain low during that time too.Back when they first started the large doe tag quotas (2000 tags). I spoke with the biologist and her number one reason for all those doe tags was the desire to increase the buck to doe ratio. I'm sure that wasn't the only reason, but it was clearly the top of her list. I specifically brought up the argument that she might reduce the herd to a point at which it took the "cushion" out of it. This in turn would hamper its ability to recover from unforeseen events in the future. I specifically brought up issues like - Harsh winter, drought, disease, fire...etc. Been going up there since the 90's and it has been painful to watch. Now ya through a severe drought into the mix and it's simply very SAD! They have been SLOWLY reducing the doe tags for several years now. Given the current status of the herd, I am baffled that there are ANY doe tags available now.
Yup. Three 100-yr. flood years in the '80s with nearly 96,000 deer permits allotted one year. The other good rains came in 1998-99.People forget that the 80’s had a couple a very wet years, way beyond above normal. Then a couple of above normal years in the 90’s. Those wet years were false hope: Drought would return.
In the last 25+ years or so, the pendulum has swung back the other way, closer to normal in the desert SW: Perpetual drought, with an occasional wet year or two thrown in for good measure.
Indeed. It was one reason I got my German shorthair pup, Ginger. Back then it was still possible to hunt quail just north of Happy Valley Rd & east of I17 at Skunk Creek. Not anymore.Those were my good ol' days. All those rainy years had an even bigger impact on quail numbers. Quail everywhere in the 80's.
Yes. Historical. '93 wasn't too shabby either. Record floods.Yup. Three 100-yr. flood years in the '80s with nearly 96,000 deer permits allotted one year. The other good rains came in 1998-99.
In an article I wrote in 2000 about this subject, Ray Lee, the big-game supervisor, said this about the '80s: “The result on our deer herds was quite predictable. For a few years running, all of the does had twins, their twins had twins, and those twins…and so on. We wound up with more deer than we knew what to do with."
We killed it for quail in the 80's. My goodness! What a great time for quail hunting! My best memories!Those were my good ol' days. All those rainy years had an even bigger impact on quail numbers. Quail everywhere in the 80's.
We used to shoot doves on the edge of the orange orchards exactly where the Superstition Mall is now. Unbelievable to see what’s happened and scary to imagine what it will be like 50 years from now.Indeed. It was one reason I got my German shorthair pup, Ginger. Back then it was still possible to hunt quail just north of Happy Valley Rd & east of I17 at Skunk Creek. Not anymore.
Good ol' days for sure. I remember a few years, maybe only two years in the 80's where you could get an extra deer tag & kill two bucks because they were so under prescribed. Lots of precipitation & lots of flooding back then. Agua Fria bridge blew out near Black Canyon City, both directions in maybe late 1978? The Mill Ave. bridge, Tempe got washed away a couple times in maybe 1980 & 1993 if I remember right? Kaibab was an amazing deer factory in that time frame through probably the mid 90's, and deer hunting statewide was fantastic. Lot's of great memoriesYup. Three 100-yr. flood years in the '80s with nearly 96,000 deer permits allotted one year. The other good rains came in 1998-99.
In an article I wrote in 2000 about this subject, Ray Lee, the big-game supervisor, said this about the '80s: “The result on our deer herds was quite predictable. For a few years running, all of the does had twins, their twins had twins, and those twins…and so on. We wound up with more deer than we knew what to do with."
Done. It's a long read, so it's posted in two messages.I probably read it back in the day, but yeah I'd like to read it again if I didn't catch it the first time. Thx!
Glad you enjoyed it. Both Ray Lee & Brian Wakeling were pretty straight shooters with me. We often had 'off the record' phone conversations on 'tender' issues.Awesome article Tony! Thanks!
Rabbits! Same here in NM. It’s rare to see a rabbit now, we had a 10 mile drive to town when I was a kid back in the 80’s and you would literally run over 2 or 3 of them everyday it seemed. We used to go rabbit hunting after school and on the weekends, thousands of cottontails and Jack rabbits everywhere. Not anymore, it’s rare to see a rabbit here. Pheasant are the the same. We used to be one of the best places in the Nation to hunt Pheasant, hard to find one of them now.We used to shoot doves on the edge of the orange orchards exactly where the Superstition Mall is now. Unbelievable to see what’s happened and scary to imagine what it will be like 50 years from now.
Im becoming more convinced the good old days are right now.
And will the rabbits ever come back?
Likewise - killed a boatload of rabbits back in the day.Rabbits! Same here in NM. It’s rare to see a rabbit now, we had a 10 mile drive to town when I was a kid back in the 80’s and you would literally run over 2 or 3 of them everyday it seemed. We used to go rabbit hunting after school and on the weekends, thousands of cottontails and Jack rabbits everywhere. Not anymore, it’s rare to see a rabbit here. Pheasant are the the same. We used to be one of the best places in the Nation to hunt Pheasant, hard to find one of them now.
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