Significant restrictions are being proposed in 2024 Novembers RAC's

I'm Not Against APR's!

But I Seen It FAIL!

How You Gonna Enforce It?

And Without The Amendment I Posted Above To HELL-F'N-RIGHT, A PISSCUTTER Fine Or A Slap On The Wrist When Joe Blow Couldn't Hold Back Long Enough To Count Points & Wastes A Buck/Or A Few Bucks Fixes Nothing!

And Here's Another Deal!

There Are More Than Just 3 or 4 Units In This State That Need Drastic Change!
 
Again if our deer herds are that bad come out and tell us no food salads please just straight up. I can work with the truth.
 
elkassassin said:
We Can't Do This Tikka!

The 1080 Would Kill The Coyotes!

The Raven That Eats All The Sage Chicken Eggs Would Tip Over Cuzz he Chewed On The 1080 Induced Coyote!

The Magpie Who Is HELL On Small Game Birds & Eggs Would Chew On The 1080 Induced Coyote As Well & He'd Go TEATS Up!

The Perty Turkey Buzzard Would Get A Taste & He'd Go Belly Up!

Oh We Can't Have This.........................!
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It would solve all the world's problems... 😁
 
I have hunted the Boulder and Thousand Lake my whole life, so these proposals hit close to home. I will do whatever it takes to draw a permit. I have been in the Dedicated Hunter Program five different times, and I hunt Muzzleloader or Archery in the years I'm not in DH.

I read the entire proposed management plan, and there are some real head-scratching moments in there: https://wildlife.utah.gov/public_meetings/rac_minutes/2024-11-mule-deer-statewide-management-plan-2025-30.pdf

For example, why the Boulder Unit? The Boulder unit is doing great right now and improving every year! I just finished my 3rd year of Dedicated Hunter and saw lots of mature bucks, and their data corroborates that.

The Boulder had nearly 31 bucks per 100 does last year. That's on the high end of what LE units are managed for.

This proposed plan also suggests reducing the buck-to-doe ratio as quoted here "In the interest of long term-herd health as well as optimizing hunter participation and engagement, this plan sets buck-to-doe ratio objectives for all units in the state and directs us to manage more general season deer units to a buck-to-doe ratio objective of 15-17 with fewer units managed at 18-20 (see Table1). "

The table shows the Boulder as a unit being lowered into the 15-17 range.
screenshot-wildlife_utah_gov-2024_10_30-11_54_16.png


They will have to increase tags significantly to bring this and most other units to their objective of 15-17 bucks per 100 does.
If weapon restrictions are in place to reduce success rates, you will need to increase the permit numbers even more to reduce the number of bucks on the landscape. It just seems odd that they chose a unit that is already improving to be one of their guinea pigs...
 
elkassassin said:
I'm Not Against APR's!

But I Seen It FAIL!

How You Gonna Enforce It?

And Without The Amendment I Posted Above To HELL-F'N-RIGHT, A PISSCUTTER Fine Or A Slap On The Wrist When Joe Blow Couldn't Hold Back Long Enough To Count Points & Wastes A Buck/Or A Few Bucks Fixes Nothing!

And Here's Another Deal!

There Are More Than Just 3 or 4 Units In This State That Need Drastic Change!
Click to expand...
Have we ever seen an APR implemented on a limited quoata unit?
 
Now for the Thousand Lake. That unit is a dumpster fire. I'm not sure how they found 100 deer to get their buck-to-doe ratio. (I'm convinced that the deer they count migrate onto the unit from the Fishlake after the hunts are over.)

Their solution? Weapons restrictions (including archery) AND making it a Limited Entry unit!

You can already draw this permit with 0-1 points for archery and muzzleloader! Who in their right mind would burn LE points on it?!?!?

Sure, try the weapons restrictions, but why tag it as LE? They already tried that, but it wasn't a great unit.

Thousan.png
 
I am all for more opportunities to hunt. I would like a tag every year. I feel that if we really want to increase opportunity, we should make people choose between limited-entry deer hunts and general season.

Those who want tag cuts can apply for limited-entry units where the tags are reduced, and the buck-to-doe ratios and mature buck numbers are higher.

They can then deal with the consequences by only drawing a tag once every decade or two (that's what they want right). That would address the point creep issue on limited-entry units and make drawing a general season tag much easier.
 
One more...

Did anyone catch this in that long list of proposals?


Another option the statewide mule deer committee explored to get more opportunity to our hunters was ways to reduce applications. In 2024, 88% of dedicated hunter applicants also applied for general-season buck deer permit. The Division would like to propose to only allow hunters to apply for a general-season buck deer permit/point OR the dedicated hunter COR/point– but no longer allow them to apply for both types of permits.

I was one of those 88%. I get why you do that, but why stop there...
 
Plateau said:
One more...

Did anyone catch this in that long list of proposals?


Another option the statewide mule deer committee explored to get more opportunity to our hunters was ways to reduce applications. In 2024, 88% of dedicated hunter applicants also applied for general-season buck deer permit. The Division would like to propose to only allow hunters to apply for a general-season buck deer permit/point OR the dedicated hunter COR/point– but no longer allow them to apply for both types of permits.

I was one of those 88%. I get why you do that, but why stop there...
Click to expand...
I think this was mentioned above in this thread…..
 
If you want to save some mature bucks on general units, then the #1 thing that need to be addressed is guiding. I have seen a bunch of great bucks killed this year on general units that were guided. It's a fact that most of these people would not have harvested these bucks if it were not for paid guides.
 
diablo said:
I think this was mentioned above in this thread…..
Click to expand...
It was!
Simpleton said:
Back to the recommendations.. what do you all think of the little tid bit about only being able to apply for either GS or DH, not both, but still keeping the points separate?

I think it is a step in the right direction, however, I think they would be better off if they took it a tiny step further and made DH an option in the General Season Draw rather than having two sets of points for the same species on the same units. Seems it would be cleaner if they just said DH is a general season option (archery, muzzleloader, early ALW, regular ALW, and DH) and keep them all in the same point pool.
Click to expand...
Plateau said:
One more...

Did anyone catch this in that long list of proposals?


Another option the statewide mule deer committee explored to get more opportunity to our hunters was ways to reduce applications. In 2024, 88% of dedicated hunter applicants also applied for general-season buck deer permit. The Division would like to propose to only allow hunters to apply for a general-season buck deer permit/point OR the dedicated hunter COR/point– but no longer allow them to apply for both types of permits.

I was one of those 88%. I get why you do that, but why stop there...
Click to expand...
SPOT ON! Speak to me Plateau! Unless having points in their pocket makes people feel all warm and fuzzy, there is zero benefit to having the GS, DH, and LE draws and points be separate.
 
Are You Saying None Of The Same DRATS Wouldn't Be Hunting There Pulling The Same BS Tactics?

Like You've Heard Me Say It A 100 Times Before This Thread Showed Up:

I'm All For APR's!

But Embed My Amendment Of HELL-F'N-RIGHT In To The Rules & Most Of The BS Would Stop!



slamdunk said:
Have we ever seen an APR implemented on a limited quoata unit?
Click to expand...
 
I've Also Said Many A Times:

Start 3 OPPOR-F'N-TUNIST Deer Units!

Let The OPPOR-F'N-TUNISTS Manage Them 3 Units As They Damn Well Please!

But Within A Year Or 2 Don't Come A BAWLIN After They Are F'ED Up Beyond A Repair!

Let Them Have Un-Limited Tags!

Let Each One Of Them buy 5 Tags If They Like!

Give Them All The OPPORTUNITY They Want On Them 3 Said Units!

But when Then 3 Units Are Destroyed They Can Just Keep Getting Tags & Have Their Opportunity At ABSO-F'N-LUTELY Nothing!
 
To Let The MOTL Bucks Live Past Age 2!

APR's Are Not For Everybody!

To Let SOME Guys Have A Chance At A Decent Quality Buck That Have Waited UMPTEEN Years To Finally Get A Tag & A Chance At A Decent Buck!

To Maybe Bring Some Decent Genetics Back In To The Herd!

A Buck That Was Sired By 5 Generations Of Spikes/JUNK Genetics Will Only Be JUNK No Matter How Long He Lives!



ktg said:
What is the desired outcome of having an APR?
Click to expand...
 
slamdunk said:
Pick a unit, purchase one of two tags.
Either a mature buck only or a yearling buck only.

Which will sell out first?
Click to expand...
Sell out? Mature Buck Only. Everyone sitting in their comfy chair dreams of a big buck, but something magical happens when the aroma of last night's booze and gun powder fills the brisk morning air after thoughts of dozens of Instagram likes danced in the dreams of last night.
 
elkassassin said:
How Many Opportunists Are In The Pile Compared To Guys That Want A Chance At A Decent Buck?
Click to expand...
What's a decent buck? With APR, if everyone is thinking a 2.5 year old buck is decent, that's what they'll get, although not as many as they might expect. If they expect something older than that, they'll be deeply disappointed.
 
It would make an interesting poll question.. but pitted against one another, one doesn't stand a chance.

Maybe if asked in a set of questions:

If tags were spike/two point only for GS deer, would you buy a tag? Paired against the same question if tags were for mature buck only, would you buy a tag?

I think I know how that would go in the poll, but hey, I've been surprised and wrong plenty before.
 
Simpleton said:
It would make an interesting poll question.. but pitted against one another, one doesn't stand a chance.

Maybe if asked in a set of questions:

If tags were spike/two point only for GS deer, would you buy a tag? Paired against the same question if tags were for mature buck only, would you buy a tag?

I think I know how that would go in the poll, but hey, I've been surprised and wrong plenty before.
Click to expand...
I'm sure the mature buck tags would go first, but then the others would be gone in no time.
 
Hey ktg?

If You Look Above You'll See Where I Recommended An APR of a 5 Point Minimum!

Agreed,Not All Of The 5+ Point Bucks Would Be Big But Some Of Them Would Be!

ktg said:
What's a decent buck? With APR, if everyone is thinking a 2.5 year old buck is decent, that's what they'll get, although not as many as they might expect. If they expect something older than that, they'll be deeply disappointed.
Click to expand...
 
I Can Just See The WHINING BEACHES Now If A 5 Point Minimum APR Was recommended & Approved!

Guess Where Them Same WHINING BEACHES Would Be Applying For A Tag The Following Years?
 
elkassassin said:
Hey ktg?

If You Look Above You'll See Where I Recommended An APR of a 5 Point Minimum!

Agreed,Not All Of The 5+ Point Bucks Would Be Big But Some Of Them Would Be!
Click to expand...
That would work out perfectly for opportunists They could sell unlimited tags over the counter. No matter how many people hunted, the buck:doe ratio would still be over the DWR's target. (which would also happen under any APR, except a 'reverse APR')
 
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Buck : Doe Ratio is such a useless tool to describe the health of a deer herd, imo.

A herd could have 15 bucks and 75 does alive in an entire unit from drought and hard winters and the DWR would sit and tell us the unit is above objective and they need to issue more tags and extend seasons because "bucks don't have fawns."

How about DWR improves our deer herds before pretending they're the expert on improving deer herds. Utah is easily one of the worst states in the west for deer herds, maybe only above Idaho. I'm sick of the people managing a failing herd telling me they're the experts.

:: rant over ::
 
grizzly said:
Buck : Doe Ratio is such a useless tool to describe the health of a deer herd, imo.

A herd could have 15 bucks and 75 does alive in an entire unit from drought and hard winters and the DWR would sit and tell us the unit is above objective and they need to issue more tags and extend seasons because "bucks don't have fawns."

How about DWR improves our deer herds before pretending they're the expert on improving deer herds. Utah is easily one of the worst states in the west for deer herds, maybe only above Idaho. I'm sick of the people managing a failing herd telling me they're the experts.

:: rant over ::
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I couldn't agree more!

Carrying capacity has to be in there somewhere 🤷‍♂️
 
Bigwiffy said:
Speaking of carrying capacity how much would you say your Lapua weighs with your 40x scope?


When you talk to your tech committee please let them know you all look silly worrying about APR's when you are carrying a weapon you can shoot across continents with.
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I wonder what he used to illegally kill that wounded 2pt he mentioned putting out of its misery in the book cliffs back in the 90s?
 
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My Comments to the Wildlife Board and RAC

I have been been in the Dedicated Hunter program since its inception. I have hunted the same area in the Cache Unit for over 46 years. I have been extremely satisfied with deer hunting. Last year hunters were required to pull magnifying scopes off of muzzleloaders. This change cost $500 for a new sight system. Under this new proposal I will have to scrap my current muzzleloader and invest $500 to $600 for a muzzleloader that fits the restricted muzzleloader definition.

We will also be required to remove our scopes off our rifles. “If only our rifles had iron sights”, so back to the store to purchase a rifle with iron sights. Another six to nine hundred dollars. This research study could cost each hunter a minimum of $1,200 if they are in the Dedicated Hunter program or $500 to $900 if they draw muzzleloader or rifle tag.

The Cache unit currently has around 200 Dedicated Hunters. Each hunter completes 32 hours or they buy their hours at $40 per hour. If half of the dedicated hunters drop out due to the new equipment requirements, it could be a loss of 3,200 volunteer hours. Will other sportsman’s organizations step up to complete the volunteer hours? Will habitat projects on the Cache unit not be completed?

What is the purpose of this proposal? Is it to increase the number of licenses sales or is it to increase the number of bucks?

The Cache unit currently has 17 bucks per 100 doe’s post season.

Objective is 15 to17 bucks per 100 doe’s post season. The Cache unit is very weather dependent. When we have a hard winter we lose our deer. If we have more bucks than objective, it takes longer for the deer herds to rebound from winter loss. The bucks out-compete the doe’s for survival, reducing the reproduction and survival of fawns.

Next year I will be 62 and my eyesight is declining. I depend on a scope to insure I make a humane harvest. Open sights including a peep sight with a globe front sight has made precision shot almost guess work. I can’t imagine a new hunter using open sights when the hunter education course allows them to use scopes to pass their shooting proficiency test.

Lets wait until the data is collected from this years hunt before significant changes are made impacting the 4,000 plus hunters that hunt the Cache unit.

This proposal doesn’t do anything for habitat that will sustain deer numbers.
 
We've Got 100 Head Left In The Unit But BY GAWD 15 Of Them Are PISSCUTTER Bucks!

The WORST GAWD-DAMNED Deer Management Ever DREMPT The Hell Up!


grizzly said:
Buck : Doe Ratio is such a useless tool to describe the health of a deer herd, imo.

A herd could have 15 bucks and 75 does alive in an entire unit from drought and hard winters and the DWR would sit and tell us the unit is above objective and they need to issue more tags and extend seasons because "bucks don't have fawns."

How about DWR improves our deer herds before pretending they're the expert on improving deer herds. Utah is easily one of the worst states in the west for deer herds, maybe only above Idaho. I'm sick of the people managing a failing herd telling me they're the experts.

:: rant over ::
Click to expand...
 
Hunter61 said:
My Comments to the Wildlife Board and RAC

I have been been in the Dedicated Hunter program since its inception. I have hunted the same area in the Cache Unit for over 46 years. I have been extremely satisfied with deer hunting. Last year hunters were required to pull magnifying scopes off of muzzleloaders. This change cost $500 for a new sight system. Under this new proposal I will have to scrap my current muzzleloader and invest $500 to $600 for a muzzleloader that fits the restricted muzzleloader definition.

We will also be required to remove our scopes off our rifles. “If only our rifles had iron sights”, so back to the store to purchase a rifle with iron sights. Another six to nine hundred dollars. This research study could cost each hunter a minimum of $1,200 if they are in the Dedicated Hunter program or $500 to $900 if they draw muzzleloader or rifle tag.

The Cache unit currently has around 200 Dedicated Hunters. Each hunter completes 32 hours or they buy their hours at $40 per hour. If half of the dedicated hunters drop out due to the new equipment requirements, it could be a loss of 3,200 volunteer hours. Will other sportsman’s organizations step up to complete the volunteer hours? Will habitat projects on the Cache unit not be completed?

What is the purpose of this proposal? Is it to increase the number of licenses sales or is it to increase the number of bucks?

The Cache unit currently has 17 bucks per 100 doe’s post season.

Objective is 15 to17 bucks per 100 doe’s post season. The Cache unit is very weather dependent. When we have a hard winter we lose our deer. If we have more bucks than objective, it takes longer for the deer herds to rebound from winter loss. The bucks out-compete the doe’s for survival, reducing the reproduction and survival of fawns.

Next year I will be 62 and my eyesight is declining. I depend on a scope to insure I make a humane harvest. Open sights including a peep sight with a globe front sight has made precision shot almost guess work. I can’t imagine a new hunter using open sights when the hunter education course allows them to use scopes to pass their shooting proficiency test.

Lets wait until the data is collected from this years hunt before significant changes are made impacting the 4,000 plus hunters that hunt the Cache unit.

This proposal doesn’t do anything for habitat that will sustain deer numbers.
Click to expand...

And people will claim this doesn’t take opportunity away from anyone.

Very well said Hunter61.
 
It’s only a 5 year study, so just don’t hunt your backyard anymore for the next 5 years, right bessy? No biggie! Not taking any opportunities away from anyone here…
 
Vanilla said:
It’s only a 5 year study, so just don’t hunt your backyard anymore for the next 5 years, right bessy? No biggie! Not taking any opportunities away from anyone here…
Click to expand...
I was told from the top it will be changed to a 6 year due to "cycles".

I think it's safe to assume this also is part of the "proposal" as well.
 
But How Many More 5 Or 6 Year Studies Do We Have?

I Know I Probably Don't Have Any Left In Me!

But I'd Sure Like To See Every-bodies Kids/Grand-Kids Have A Chance At Something!



Vanilla said:

​

It’s only a 5 year study, so just don’t hunt your backyard anymore for the next 5 years, right bessy? No biggie! Not taking any opportunities away from anyone here…
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
But I'd Sure Like To See Every-bodies Kids/Grand-Kids Have A Chance At Something!
Click to expand...

We agree on that! So let’s keep doing things that do NOT build our deer herd at all and add in making it harder to actually hunt. That ought to do the trick, huh my friend?

But at least some on here will be able to find that 4 pointer on the hunt going forward!!!
 
Maybe if more would look beyond the actual hunting and killing part and what affects our personal success, maybe we'd see a bigger picture of what's being done to help deer and other wildlife increase or at least sustain.

Just this morning while having my coffee i was reading about 50 deer underpasses that have been built or being built and all the GPS collared deer to study migration routes and where to help the animals.

There's far more to management of wildlife than how to kill them.
 
slamdunk said:
I couldn't agree more!

Carrying capacity has to be in there somewhere 🤷‍♂️
Click to expand...
It amazes me that someone like grizzly doesn't understand how the unit by unit management plans actually work and how a biologist determines tag numbers each year but for you to not understand, is plain out disappointing. Especially with your heavy involvement with the MDF and the DWR committee's. I would have thought you knew the unit deer plans inside and out. Carrying capacity and herd numbers most definitely are part of the equation, along with buck/doe ratios when determining tag numbers for each unit.
 
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ridgetops said:
It amazes me that someone like grizzly doesn't understand how the unit by unit management plans actually work and how a biologist determines tag numbers each year but for you to not understand, is plain out disappointing. Especially with your heavy involvement with the MDF and the DWR committee's. I would have that you knew they unit deer plans inside and out. Carrying capacity and herd numbers most definitely are part of the equation, along with buck/doe ratios when determining tag numbers for each unit.
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I never insinuated i don't know how it works, I apologize if it came out that way.

My comment was more in tune with carrying capacity and herd management as a whole and how it varies from unit to unit.

I get in a hurry to comment sometimes when I'm at work.
 
ridgetops said:
It amazes me that someone like grizzly doesn't understand how the unit by unit management plans actually work and how a biologist determines tag numbers each year but for you to not understand, is plain out disappointing.
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I understand how they say it works; I've read many white papers on mule deer and habitat improvements and spoken directly to Todd Black about mule deer management plans, not just gotten a bunch of anecdotal opinions on forums and from what I think I see in the woods.

I also know the proof is in the pudding (at least it would be in the private sector) and that Utah's mule deer management is not actually working, i.e. improving Utah's mule deer.

I don't know anybody that would say Utah's mule deer are faring better than 15 years ago, 30 years ago, 50 years ago, etc... Do you?

Undoubtedly, range encroachment is a huge part of that decline. Does anybody think range encroachment will lessen in the next 50 years? Will there be less homes on the foothills? Heck, our legislature is openly trying to sell BLM land to developers to build more homes on deer habitat (and they're using our tax dollars to lobby the citizens for support).

Where will our deer herds be a decade from now, or 20 or 30 years from now, at the current trajectory? What are we doing to change that trajectory?
 
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grizzly said:
I understand how they say it works; I've read many white papers on mule deer and habitat improvements and spoken directly to Todd Black about mule deer management plans, not just gotten a bunch of anecdotal opinions on forums and from what I think I see in the woods.

I also know the proof is in the pudding (at least it would be in the private sector) and that Utah's mule deer management is not actually working, i.e. improving Utah's mule deer.

I don't know anybody that would say Utah's mule deer are faring better than 15 years ago, 30 years ago, 50 years ago, etc... Do you?

Undoubtedly, range encroachment is a huge part of that decline. Does anybody think range encroachment will lessen in the next 50 years? Will there be less homes on the foothills? Heck, our legislature is openly trying to sell BLM land to developers to build more homes on deer habitat (and they're using our tax dollars to lobby the citizens for support).

Where will our deer herds be a decade from now, or 20 years from now at the current trajectory? What are we doing to change that trajectory?
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Todd is a good dude, he knows his stuff about wildlife.
I missed him on Deseret but occasionally see him on MDF projects.
 
Which western state is seeing a better mule deer situation today than they were 15, 30, or 50 years ago? Which states have increased their mule deer numbers over that timeline?

I’m certainly not saying Utah is doing well with this, because we are not. However, it seems ignorant to single out Utah when every state is seeing similar results and declines pretty much across the board. There may be short term outliers of improvement, we’ve even seen that in Utah, but where are all these mule deer success stories in western states for us to copy?
 
I haven't read it myself, but I was told Colorado is going to all draw on their deer state wide, no more OTC.

As stated above, it's all over the west.
 

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