Significant restrictions are being proposed in 2024 Novembers RAC's

Airborne said:
@Vanilla I am surprised you are against this. You have been a great advocate for opportunity. You were 100% correct in advocating to keep GS elk OTC and the changes the DWR made were excellent. I was wrong then to advocate for it going to a draw. I think exploring ways to get that permit trend line up is the way to go and maybe weapons restrictions are a way to do it? I am open to all other ideas and to trying things out.
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Read what people are saying here an in other places.

Why only do this on limited number of units, we need APRs everywhere!

We are going to need to cut tags after a few years in Pine Valley to ensure we don’t kill off all the progress in one year. Pine Valley is going to become a LE unit at end of study.

We’ve done weapon restrictions and also weapon and season alterations in the past. Where has that led to increased opportunity in any meaningful or measurable way previously?

Make no mistake, this is not about increased opportunity. If it was, I’d make myself be okay with it. But it’s not. I made a public comment at a RAC that it’s time for the DWR to quit telling us all these restrictions are about increased opportunity when all the previous ones have led to further tag cuts.
 
Airborne said:
View attachment 161888

Here are your resident general season deer applicants and tags since 2010.

I want the permits line to match the up trend of the applicants line. Otherwise we have a loss of opportunity. We can manage for crowding. The wildlife board needs to be dynamic to keep those trend lines the same. This might mean thinking outside the box and coming up with more tags for lower harvest rate weapons. I don't think this is taking anything from anyone and should be explored.

@Vanilla I am surprised you are against this. You have been a great advocate for opportunity. You were 100% correct in advocating to keep GS elk OTC and the changes the DWR made were excellent. I was wrong then to advocate for it going to a draw. I think exploring ways to get that permit trend line up is the way to go and maybe weapons restrictions are a way to do it? I am open to all other ideas and to trying things out.

Let's not bring up past crap behavior of the wildlife board and assume it can't change. Let's come up with solutions to a real problem and advocate those good ideas to the RAC and WB
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Can you add Utah's deer population to that chart?
 
Mallardsx2 said:
Can you add Utah's deer population to that chart?
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Get me the deer population from 2020-2024. I can't find it, I have the other years.

it's going to show that we had an uptick in deer in the mid teens and the WB did not issue more tags like they should have.

I guess @Vanilla does not trust the WB and thinks they are disingenuous and this proposal is more about special interest and less opportunity. I get they have a history of doing bonehead things but they have done some stuff right. They do have a messaging issue and they need to better explain their goals and what they want to accomplish--that is for sure.
 
Airborne said:
Get me the deer population from 2020-2024. I can't find it, I have the other years.

it's going to show that we had an uptick in deer in the mid teens and the WB did not issue more tags like they should have.

I guess @Vanilla does not trust the WB and thinks they are disingenuous and this proposal is more about special interest and less opportunity. I get they have a history of doing bonehead things but they have done some stuff right. They do have a messaging issue and they need to better explain their goals and what they want to accomplish--that is for sure.
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I will look this weekend to see if I can find it. I just thought it would be interesting to see on the chart.
 
Airborne said:
I guess @Vanilla does not trust the WB and thinks they are disingenuous and this proposal is more about special interest and less opportunity.
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Correct. But it isn’t just the WB I don’t trust here.

Who benefits the most? That is just like following the money. Figure that out, and you will likely get the real motivations behind this.
 
Simpleton said:
I can't believe you can say this with a straight face. The RAC process allows for the public to have comment and serves its purpose as a pacifier that can be conveniently pointed to in times like these. Even when the RACs agree in a majority on a recommendation or change, the WB still does whatever the WB wants. I actually feel for the people who donate their time to the RACs and the countless committees the state creates because the WB has shown time and again that our prized public process doesn't matter to them, it is all a dog and pony show. I still continue to try, because it is all we have. But my belief in the process dwindles more each cycle.

Committees with dozens of people, especially with competing special interests, will result in compromise. Compromise is great in relationships, but it is terrible when the end goal is finding the very best solutions. You can't make everyone happy and committees are a prime example of this on even a small scale.

I believe the following still holds true: If it is a biology issue, leave it to the biologists. If it is a social issue, each individual should get an equal amount of say. SFW, MDF, RMEF, the NAACP or PETA shouldn't get more or less say just because they have an organization.
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I definitely agree that "it does feel" like the GP average Joe hunter gets very little voice, or action from that voice, but they do in fact get a voice.

You, me and everyone on this site should all agree that most comments, ideas or grievances by the majority of the GP are emotionally based and how it affects them personally.
Groups get heard, that's how it works in everything else, including political points.
 
Vanilla said:
Why only do this on limited number of units, we need APRs everywhere!
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My point is if we are going to do it. I think it needs spread out threw the state to get a better study.
Then they will have a general idea what areas this will work on if it even works at all.

Like I said a couple years ago! I think APR's will work, Most of us agree it's not long term!
But if we allow the youth hunters to be excluded from APR and I think it will be a better balance. Just maybe it could be a long term solution im not a biologist so I don't know. But Its worth a try
 
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Vanilla said:
Hoss, I’ve sat and listened to you say “follow the money” a million and two times on this forum. So here is my version of “follow the money.”

Who benefits the most from these changes?

Therein lies your answer that you seek. And if you don’t think certain people and/or groups benefit from these changes, I’ve got some property I want you take a look at. Ocean view, right outside Flagstaff.
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Who?

Optics companies don't. Gun companies? Not really. Guides don't. Outfitters don't.

High fence units?


I'm not being a smartass, I cannot figure out who, especially if you follow the money, pushes this
 
Vanilla said:
Read what people are saying here an in other places.

Why only do this on limited number of units, we need APRs everywhere!

We are going to need to cut tags after a few years in Pine Valley to ensure we don’t kill off all the progress in one year. Pine Valley is going to become a LE unit at end of study.

We’ve done weapon restrictions and also weapon and season alterations in the past. Where has that led to increased opportunity in any meaningful or measurable way previously?

Make no mistake, this is not about increased opportunity. If it was, I’d make myself be okay with it. But it’s not. I made a public comment at a RAC that it’s time for the DWR to quit telling us all these restrictions are about increased opportunity when all the previous ones have led to further tag cuts.
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The Wasatch front late archery tag is without a doubt the best non LE hunt in the state.

Year after year. Seems weapon restrictions don't wipe out age class
 
Vanilla said:
You tell me how unbiased these committees are, then finish it off with this. I’ll submit on that line, as it essentially proves my point.
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Nill, isn't this point the hot topic here?

Even i agree with you that the single one on one GP Joe Schmo has about as much power to win a shooting contest as a Daisy Red Ryder on a shooting range, but they ARE there for "diversity's" sake.

How many RAC's have you attended where a person stands up with his grievance and you yourself are silently rolling your eyes and shaking your head?

That is my point 👉

Groups have power, just like anything in life, common knowledge.

However, not all groups win or get what they want.
Look at SFW's bait and switch on the muzzleloader scope issue.
I was there, I saw their vote, then at the RAC's rescinded their stance.
Did they win, no.

In this case of new proposals, it IS about the GP, they are listening and even going against their own policies and implementing APR's because the GP is begging for it.
 
Why not try APR's statewide? We do it on the Elk Spike Hunt. Allow the youth to shoot a younger buck if they choose. This shuts down 99% of the complaints. They can cull a few of the spikes and 3 points out of the herd. And yes I know.....This is about quality!
 
quest said:
The thought of just hunting 4 points only it’s gonna wipe out any advantage they get in the Pine Valley unit in the long run. If they rotate it every other year you’ll grow deer/bucks and you’ll have a better age class. Only problem is everyone gonna want that tag bummer🤔
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I disagree.

If the success rates were high, then it could impact the high end age classes, but it's not.

I would hardly think the amount of 4 point bucks getting taken would be higher than the bucks that will become 4 points in the 5 year span.
 
slamdunk said:
I definitely agree that "it does feel" like the GP average Joe hunter gets very little voice, or action from that voice, but they do in fact get a voice.

You, me and everyone on this site should all agree that most comments, ideas or grievances by the majority of the GP are emotionally based and how it affects them personally.
Groups get heard, that's how it works in everything else, including political points.
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There is no disputing that most comments are emotional and no matter what happens essentially half of people will be happy and half will not. It just irritates me when people imply that everyone has an equal say when it is obvious, to anyone who pays attention, that isn't how it works.

I know a couple of people who were on this particular committee and have spoken to them about how it went. The idea that every individual on the committee is only their speaking for the "group" they represent and not their personal opinions is blatantly false. Some do, and I applaud them for it, but most are not capable of doing so and even openly admit it.

Ask yourself why the lower buck to doe ratio idea that has been discussed at length on multiple platforms wasn't recommended on a single unit? It was discussed, but each unit they suggested had at least one individual who was opposed to doing it on "their" unit so it was scrapped.

I'm not saying I have the answer for a better way. I am simply asking that the discussion remain honest. Don't tell me/us the general public has equal voice when, at the end of the day, there are a select few that are ultimately guiding the decisions under a veil to protect themselves from blowback.
 
slamdunk said:
I disagree.

If the success rates were high, then it could impact the high end age classes, but it's not.

I would hardly think the amount of 4 point bucks getting taken would be higher than the bucks that will become 4 points in the 5 year span.
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Right!
Slam if we can balance APR with youth and it works without compromising the health of the herd.
Do you realize how many more tags for Adults could be issued. There defiantly isn't a ton of 4x4 or 4x3 or 4x2 on GS units in this state.
 
Elkslayer2015 said:
Right!
Slam if we can balance APR with youth and it works without compromising the health of the herd.
Do you realize how many more tags for Adults could be issued. There defiantly isn't a ton of 4x4 or 4x3 or 4x2 on GS units in this state.
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These comments of "wiping out the older age class" are completely a far emotional reaching statement.

Even on high success rate areas like the Paunsaugunt where literally hundreds of average 4 point bucks are taken, the crop continues to replenish itself annually.
(Yes I realize the Paunsaugunt is a unique unit)

Pine valley isn't a high success rate unit and plenty of the older age class bucks will make it through, while the allowances of new crop will be created right behind them.
 
slamdunk said:
These comments of "wiping out the older age class" are completely a far emotional reaching statement.
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Agreed!
slamdunk said:
Pine valley isn't a high success rate unit and plenty of the older age class bucks will make it through, while the allowances of new crop will be created right behind them.
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Yes its not very high! But it is a prime unit for growing deer.

That's why I think if were going to try this APR lets get some real data cover different parts of the state. just my opinion.
 
Why is it every study of APR refute your hypothesis
slamdunk said:
These comments of "wiping out the older age class" are completely a far emotional reaching statement.

Even on high success rate areas like the Paunsaugunt where literally hundreds of average 4 point bucks are taken, the crop continues to replenish itself annually.
(Yes I realize the Paunsaugunt is a unique unit)

Pine valley isn't a high success rate unit and plenty of the older age class bucks will make it through, while the allowances of new crop will be created right behind them.
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?
 
middlefork said:
Why is it every study of APR refute your hypothesis


?
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Why is it several states still implement APR's?

I don't believe their data on deer numbers, nor does 90+ percent of the hunting population, but they still want us to believe and trust their "studies", why should we believe this?

Explain why both the Books and the Henry's were completely shut down 3 years after they lifted the APR's on both units?

Both units were crawling with bucks, bucks of every age class.

Those units were completely shot out by opportunists who just wanted to harvest a buck of any size and knew those two units were going to be a near 100% success rate.

My "hypothesis" is the state knew that lifted restrictions were an epic failure, so they came up with excuses for what they did.

I hunted the Henry's with the APR rule before and after it was lifted.
I witnessed that unit fall completely on it's face with extremely high success rates on the first 3 years until the emergency closure to rebuild it and create an LE.
 
How are you going to manage the buck/doe ratio if you’re just hunting 4 points or better. There’s not enough youths to keep that in check. Then there’s hunter's that just want the meat are you going to leave them out? I think my idea on rotating 4 points every other year will please most hunters for the Pine Valley unit.
 
quest said:
How are you going to manage the buck/doe ratio if you’re just hunting 4 points or better. There’s not enough youths to keep that in check. Then there’s hunter's that just want the meat are you going to leave them out? I think my idea on rotating 4 points every other year will please most hunters for the Pine Valley unit.
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I believe that's why it's only a 5 year plan, assessments will be made after the "study".
 
quest said:
How are you going to manage the buck/doe ratio if you’re just hunting 4 points or better. There’s not enough youths to keep that in check. Then there’s hunter's that just want the meat are you going to leave them out? I think my idea on rotating 4 points every other year will please most hunters for the Pine Valley unit.
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If their plan is to increase licenses to combat a buck/doe ratio that's too high, they'll be able to sell unlimited licenses because if they kill all bucks bigger than a 2 point, there will still be so many 2 points that the buck/doe ratio is over objective; hence, increase license sales. Cha... Ching!
 
Sooner or later you’ll have to harvest those surplus young bucks. Why not do it every other year? 5 years is to long it needs to be 3 years max and that will piss of a lot of meat hunters.
 
quest said:
How are you going to manage the buck/doe ratio if you’re just hunting 4 points or better. There’s not enough youths to keep that in check. Then there’s hunter's that just want the meat are you going to leave them out? I think my idea on rotating 4 points every other year will please most hunters for the Pine Valley unit.
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They will sell licenses hand over fist.
 
slamdunk said:
Explain why both the Books and the Henry's were completely shut down 3 years after they lifted the APR's on both units?
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Maybe it’s because the studies that show APRs are beneficial for short term increasing age class, and yet still have long term detrimental effects on the herd itself.

These aren’t only Utah studies. Your observations are essentially showing exactly what the studies have tried to tell us but some don’t want to listen.

Maybe the recent studies of too high buck numbers is bad for herd management are on to something…

But we won’t ever know. The “groups” will continue to push to get tags cut so a few can more easily hunt bigger animals and make hunting a more exclusive activity. As I said, it’s all part of the plan.
 
Vanilla said:
Maybe it’s because the studies that show APRs are beneficial for short term increasing age class, and yet still have long term detrimental effects on the herd itself.

These aren’t only Utah studies. Your observations are essentially showing exactly what the studies have tried to tell us but some don’t want to listen.

Maybe the recent studies of too high buck numbers is bad for herd management are on to something…

But we won’t ever know. The “groups” will continue to push to get tags cut so a few can more easily hunt bigger animals and make hunting a more exclusive activity. As I said, it’s all part of the plan.
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I agree, short term solution that can be alternated in time 👍

I do hunt a Wyoming 4 point restricted unit.
Every 3 point or smaller i let walk, speaks for itself.
 
Don’t just limited gun restrictions to a half of a unit. The Beaver is one unit so keep it consistent with the full unit. When did they ever do anything on just a half unit?
 
Elkslayer2015 said:
My point is it's a perfect unit to do a APR some units probably couldn't handle it.
If we are going to do a study well lets do it the right way and cover the whole state and see what happens.
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Generally in science you try to negate as many variables as possible.

Winter being the biggest. Roads would be next maybe?


Like I said, I hunt the Manti, I wouldn't complain.
 
APR the cache then with the gun restrictions and see what it grows
I let 25 or so bucks walk muzzle hunting I wonder how many made it through the last 7 days
Why restrict the weapons and not do a APR?
I only hunt the cache for deer and it could be so much better with a APR
I would like to see a 3 year APR one year off with that year having a 4 day season try that for 8 years and see what happens
 
Mallardsx2 said:
I will get roasted for this, but the Antler restriction rule should apply to youth too.

I have my reasons for saying this.....I live in a state where a lot of shenanigans happen.....I hate the youth exception, and I have a 13-year-old....
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I'll join you in getting roasted and called "anti youth" but I agree.

How many adult mentors are going to "party hunt" or have the luxury of placing their kids tag on a buck that was dad's mistake 🤔
 
Vanilla said:
Solution to what?!?!?

What are we “fixing” with this?
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Now you're just being difficult.

Short term solution by allowing an older age class to happen.
Then after the 5 year study, asses, evaluate and decide the next move based off of what the outcome is.

Where is the problem with this in your mind?

Do you hunt any of these three units and will be personally affected by a temporary change?
 
I already told you I’ve hunted Pine Valley multiple times. And I do anticipate, as I’ve also stated multiple times, that these restrictions will force people to other areas that will have downstream impacts on everyone.

And to fix what? Nothing.

I’m not being difficult. I’m pointing out the inconsistencies and the lack of transparency on these decisions. These are general season deer hunts. You want easy to find older bucks? Get in line. We’ve already got units for that. Quit trying to take opportunities away from others.
 
Why did they pick these units? Are they going to add more units before the 5 years is up or rotate through units or will they wait until 5 years then decide what to do?
 
Vanilla said:
I already told you I’ve hunted Pine Valley multiple times. And I do anticipate, as I’ve also stated multiple times, that these restrictions will force people to other areas that will have downstream impacts on everyone.

And to fix what? Nothing.

I’m not being difficult. I’m pointing out the inconsistencies and the lack of transparency on these decisions. These are general season deer hunts. You want easy to find older bucks? Get in line. We’ve already got units for that. Quit trying to take opportunities away from others.
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Ok, my apologies for missing where you said you hunt PV.

Perhaps some will jump ship and hunt elsewhere because of the restrictions, but i feel safe to suspect several others will go there simply for the experience and increased odds of drawing a deer tag.

Personally, it's not the first five years I'd be concerned about, it would be the following years that could cause an uptick in new hunters expecting an opportunity to take a good mature buck.
 
I guarantee the pine valley is going to see a huge influx of lifetime hunters. There really needs to be a cap on any unit of no more than 10 percent of the tags going to the lifetime hunter each year. If they don't get their first choice, then they get a preference point to be guaranteed a first choice tag the following year.
 
So what about the dedicated hunters that are having this chit forced on to them that are currently enrolled in the program for a unit that has changes? They burned several years worth of points. They did not sign up for this. I don’t remember clicking a box acknowledging that they can just change chit up any way they feel whenever they want when you applied for the tag
 
You Trying To Piss Nilly Off Even A Little More?

ridgetops said:
I guarantee the pine valley is going to see a huge influx of lifetime hunters. There really needs to be a cap on any unit of no more than 10 percent of the tags going to the lifetime hunter each year. If they don't get their first choice, then they get a preference point to be guaranteed a first choice tag the following year.
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Bux n Dux said:
So what about the dedicated hunters that are having this chit forced on to them that are currently enrolled in the program for a unit that has changes? They burned several years worth of points. They did not sign up for this. I don’t remember clicking a box acknowledging that they can just change chit up any way they feel whenever they want when you applied for the tag
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My guess would be they will get a chance to switch to a different unit that's not involved with the new changes.
 
Vanilla said:
Hoss, I’ve sat and listened to you say “follow the money” a million and two times on this forum. So here is my version of “follow the money.”

Who benefits the most from these changes?

Therein lies your answer that you seek. And if you don’t think certain people and/or groups benefit from these changes, I’ve got some property I want you take a look at. Ocean view, right outside Flagstaff.
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I’ll bite. Who benefits?
 
If I had a vote, I would vote to approve this.

But as to less people applying, I doubt it. Didnt happen so far with taking off scopes.

And about a month from the season, we will be getting a lot of posts like this:

“Never used a muzzleloader before, but I just bought this sidelock and I need to know how to load it and what powder and bullets to use”
 
yoteduster said:
Here's a couple..habitat improvement.. There's thousands of acres of winter range that's being over run with cheat grass it would help if this problem was taken care of...I live right off of a hiway where hundreds of deer get slaughtered every winter mostly does counting the unborn fawns that's pretty hefty number of deer wasted every year high fencing these roads along with safe crossings either overheads or tunnels would definitely improve many deer herds..and this is just for starters..there's much more that could be done..but very expensive
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Pinyon/juniper has got to go also. Just as invasive as chest grass if not more so. Areas of juniper that have been removed has a noticeably higher deer population. These trees do nothing for mule deer.
 
hossblur said:
The Wasatch front late archery tag is without a doubt the best non LE hunt in the state.

Year after year. Seems weapon restrictions don't wipe out age class
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This is 100 correct. This unit gets pounded by some of the most hard core, psycho hunters every year. Early season, November season, gets flat out raped! Has an extremely high cat population, mediocre winter range. And produces great deer every year. Weapon restrictions work very well, there is zero question about it.
 
So I wanted to weigh in on this just haven’t had time.

It’s weird but I agree with both Slam and Nilla on parts of their arguement.

I am old enough to know that APR do work and were incredible here in Utah. I watched as the APR was removed and the DWR literally slaughtered the Fish Lake herd.

I will say this about APR tho. I believe to be successful the unit must be somewhat remote without a mass of roads. This is my reasoning behind APR not working on the Book Cliffs where there is literally a road on every ridge. There are no safe havens for deer to survive. That scenario is not the case on the Fish Lake or Henry’s and the hunting was incredible.

Now, about this proposal. I am totally against it as it all stands right now.

Reason 1 and this is huge. Changing a unit to a much improved unit possibly even better than most of our LE units will just be one the ultimate LL holder unit. I think a change has to be made to limit the LL holders to no more than 10% of the tags per unit.

Reason 2. We already have HAMS hunts. This feels like a different thing. It seems like we have two different groups working totally independent of one another but pushing the same agenda. I think the groups need to get together and utilize HAMS where and when it would benefit a unit.

I am 100% in favor of primitive weapons. I believe you can utilize PW to increase age class and hunter opportunity. The Wasatch Front is a prime example of that.

If you want to maximize opportunity you have to give up something or the resource suffers. What has to give is efficiency of weapon.

What I don’t want to see is the Pine valley become a great unit and then see the “Groups” pull it into the LE and lose a huge unit full of opportunity tags. I don’t think any of you can say that isn’t a foreseeable option to this proposal down the road.
 
slamdunk said:
Ain't nobody going to EVER convince me the APR's didn't work, I was there!
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This is why the DWR's attempt to do the APR to try to make the dumbphucks see that UT isn't special and APRs are detrimental long term here same as the other places that have studied it, is completely pointless.

The folks foaming at the mouth arguing for "let's do APRs" have their minds already made up and refuse to accept even the possibility that they are wrong.
 
johnnycake said:
This is why the DWR's attempt to do the APR to try to make the dumbphucks see that UT isn't special and APRs are detrimental long term here same as the other places that have studied it, is completely pointless.

The folks foaming at the mouth arguing for "let's do APRs" have their minds already made up and refuse to accept even the possibility that they are wrong.
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They did work. And the same could be said of those if you saying they don’t work.
 
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I’m 100 in favor of APR. I’ll trust my own eyes over some “study” any day of the week.
I’m in favor of every unit in the state having APR in place.
Although, I would prefer 3 point or better like it was before rather than 4 point or better. Most 2 year olds are going to be dinky 3’s or 4’s. Age class should be the factor, not antler points. A two year old is a two year old. Not a fan of a herd having a bunch of BIG 3 points you’re restricted not to harvest. Big, old 2’s. Who cares, they rarely get old and stay a 2 point.
Utah has potential to be awesome. I’m glad to see a few of those who influence Mule deer management decisions are waking up to this.
 
fullthrottle said:
I’m 100 in favor of APR. I’ll trust my own eyes over some “study” any day of the week.
I’m in favor of every unit in the state having APR in place.
Although, I would prefer 3 point or better like it was before rather than 4 point or better. Most 2 year olds are going to be dinky 3’s or 4’s. Age class should be the factor, not antler points. A two year old is a two year old. Not a fan of a herd having a bunch of BIG 3 points you’re restricted not to harvest. Big, old 2’s. Who cares, they rarely get old and stay a 2 point.
Utah has potential to be awesome. I’m glad to see a few of those who influence Mule deer management decisions are waking up to this.
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Exhibit B, everybody!
 
johnnycake said:
Care to post up a reputable study to back up that position? I'll wait.


In the meantime, this is a pretty great review of the results of mule deer APR attempts across the West and what the results were.
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Studies can be twisted and manipulated to meet an agenda at any time. Not to mention no one management style can or ever will apply the same in all areas.

I can only post factual evidence from my own personal experience on 3 units in Utah. Unlike most in this thread I actually hunted during this time frame and the difference between the years with APR on the Henry’s and Fish Lake and the years following were drastically different. I will not argue that they didn’t work on the book cliffs - a unit with virtually no refuge and roads everywhere.

APR’s have been used with success in Idaho, Wyoming and Utah. I stand by my statement and belief. APR works and should be implemented where deemed appropriate.
 
johnnycake said:
This is why the DWR's attempt to do the APR to try to make the dumbphucks see that UT isn't special and APRs are detrimental long term here same as the other places that have studied it, is completely pointless.

The folks foaming at the mouth arguing for "let's do APRs" have their minds already made up and refuse to accept even the possibility that they are wrong.
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The dudes wanting APRs are also usually the ones who suck at hunting and think this will somehow make it easier for them to finally kill a ‘big’ buck.
 
Silentstalker said:
Studies can be twisted and manipulated to meet an agenda at any time. Not to mention no one management style can or ever will apply the same in all areas.

I can only post factual evidence from my own personal experience on 3 units in Utah. Unlike most in this thread I actually hunted during this time frame and the difference between the years with APR on the Henry’s and Fish Lake and the years following were drastically different. I will not argue that they didn’t work on the book cliffs - a unit with virtually no refuge and roads everywhere.

APR’s have been used with success in Idaho, Wyoming and Utah. I stand by my statement and belief. APR works and should be implemented where deemed appropriate.
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Exhibit C!

This is why even after UDWR wastes $$$ studying this if implemented, only to show that Utah isn't special and APRs don't lead to more mature bucks on the unit, people will still insist that their anecdotal view is more valid and correct.
 
fullthrottle said:
Hahaha. Nah. Just I way to implement some self control for those who have none. Which is most.
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Impose self control on those who have none, huh? What could possibly go wrong?
1000006519.jpg
 
Bux n Dux said:
The dudes wanting APRs are also usually the ones who suck at hunting and think this will somehow make it easier for them to finally kill a ‘big’ buck.
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I do just fine hunting. I don’t need anything extra to kill stuff. I never asked for APR. I’m against these proposals. To say APR didn’t work is just silly. Those units were better than the LE units of today. And, it literally changed in a weekend. The opener of the year it went to any buck.
 
txhunter58 said:
Didn't prove APR didn’t work. Only that Utah didn't enforce the regs.
Click to expand...
Define "work"

1000006521.jpg


And how can you say Utah didn't enforce the restriction? Makes it hard for UDWR to track non-compliance if they weren't enforcing it. Instead, sure looks like a lot of enforcement and finding of abandoned sub legal bucks ditched in the sage. Brilliant thing to bring back
 
I don’t buy the illegal harvest of yearling buck argument. Not every hunter on the mountain had spotting scopes and phone scopes back in the day. For many hunting has completely changed since the 80’s. Most didn’t even pack binos.

Personally, I believe APR work and work well. Seen its effects in numerous areas and states I’ve hunted.

Why would some suggest Pine Valley would become a lifetime license holder hotspot if they implemented APR?? Because those who know, know PV will be incredible in 3 years.

I’m not here to get in an argument, or take a hard stance one way or the other. I’m for point restrictions, some aren’t for them and thats great. I’ll leave it at that.
 
johnnycake said:
Impose self control on those who have none, huh? What could possibly go wrong?View attachment 161971
Click to expand...
Same exact thing happened for years with the spike elk hunt. They stuck with it and look where we are at. A great opportunity hunt mixed in with LE elk.

This literally states that Utah stopped the hunt due to lack of ethics and compliance not its ineffectiveness.

I love how in every thread on these forums the DWR is a bunch of idiots and can’t manage the deer worth a dang bit when they reference APR you guys are taking their studies hook line and sinker.

I was on those mountains during that time. The hunting was so much better it can’t even be compared to today’s hunts.
 
Silentstalker said:
Same exact thing happened for years with the spike elk hunt. They stuck with it and look where we are at. A great opportunity hunt mixed in with LE elk.

This literally states that Utah stopped the hunt due to lack of ethics and compliance not its ineffectiveness.

I love how in every thread on these forums the DWR is a bunch of idiots and can’t manage the deer worth a dang bit when they reference APR you guys are taking their studies hook line and sinker.

I was on those mountains during that time. The hunting was so much better it can’t even be compared to today’s hunts.
Click to expand...
Wrong. It actually literally states that it was abandoned for illegal harvest/non compliance (which is different that non enforcement), reduced total harvest, reduced participation, shifting hunter distribution to other unrestricted areas, and a reduction in harvestable mature bucks.

If you look across my footprint on these forums, you'll pretty much only find me taking issue with the DWR when they do stupid things to cave to uninformed public pressure, sweeping aside illegal actions by specific individuals, and giving out twice in a lifetime tags to folks that cry hard enough.
 
APR's FAILED Miserably In The Book Cliffs!

I Seen It With My Own Eyes & I Don't Need A COMMITTEE Or Some BULLSSHITT Study To Wonder What Happened Out There!

What A FUSTER-CLUCK That Was!
 
elkassassin said:
APR's FAILED Miserably In The Book Cliffs!

I Seen It With My Own Eyes & I Don't Need A COMMITTEE Or Some BULLSSHITT Study To Wonder What Happened Out There!

What A FUSTER-CLUCK That Was!
Click to expand...
Where did the BC's APR fail?
There used to be mature bucks everywhere on that unit during that era.

It failed when they opened it up to "Any Buck".
 
Everytime I Think Of The POORLY Managed DRATville Deer Herd It Reminds Me Of This Song!

Ya!

Go Ahead & Tell Me The Yearlings Ain't Breeding Their Mothers!

 
We Found Several 2 Points That Were Left To ROT Because Some JACK-ASSES Evident-ally Shot Them Before Counting Points,Some Of Them Were Good sized 2 Points,I'm Guessing SHOOT & COUNT Later? During The Rifle Hunt!

We Found Many Descent Sized 2 Points That Were Left To ROT!

How Much Time Did You Spend In The Book Cliffs Lion Hunting?

At This Time Of year We Couldn't Tell What For Surely Killed Them?

Kinda Funny Most Were Bucks That Rotted & They Were 2 Points For The Most Part!

I'll Agree with You On: It failed when they opened it up to "Any Buck".

But that Was The Icing On The Cake!



slamdunk said:
Where did the BC's APR fail?
There used to be mature bucks everywhere on that unit during that era.

It failed when they opened it up to "Any Buck".
Click to expand...
 
Last edited:
johnnycake said:
Wrong. It actually literally states that it was abandoned for illegal harvest/non compliance (which is different that non enforcement), reduced total harvest, reduced participation, shifting hunter distribution to other unrestricted areas, and a reduction in harvestable mature bucks.

If you look across my footprint on these forums, you'll pretty much only find me taking issue with the DWR when they do stupid things to cave to uninformed public pressure, sweeping aside illegal actions by specific individuals, and giving out twice in a lifetime tags to folks that cry hard enough
Click to expand...
So this will be my last post.

I don’t believe one word of the Utah DWR “counts” that say the age class decreased due to APR. that is simply false on the fish lake and Henry’s. Was not the case.
 
This Isn't Me talking:

The Utah Division of Wildlife Resources is looking for public input concerning deer hunting regulations in the Book Cliffs.

For the past five years, the Book Cliffs unit has been managed under a three-point or better hunting system.Originally, the recommendation was for a limited entry hunt there, but public pressure resulted in the the voting board opening it to hunting three-point buck or larger.

The DWR has monitored the impact of this harvest strategy for five years, now.


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On the positive side, the postseason buck/doe ratio was higher for the Book Cliffs than for the five buck-only units nearby. Postseason counts revealed an average of nine bucks per 100 does in the buck-only areas, and 18 to 100 in the Book Cliffs.

Other data was not so encouraging. While the number of spike and three-point buck increased, the percentage of two- and four-point bucks decreased.

More interesting is the fact that the percent of three-point and four-point bucks counted after the season was higher on buck only units than in the Book Cliffs. This indicated fewer bucks were living long enough to reach their potential as trophies.

Much of this is a result of increased hunter pressure. Hunting pressure jumped from around 2,300 to over 4,000 with the new classification.

The bottom line is that after five years of three-point or better hunting, the percentage of three- and four-point bucks left in the population is virtually the same in the Book Cliffs as in buck-only units.

Another problem is the high rate of illegal kills. For every 100 legal deer checked, 48 sub-legal bucks were shot and left.




View Comments
Two alternatives are to open the Book Cliffs to limited entry or return it to buck-only hunting.

Limited entry would regulate the number of hunters by issuing only a certain number of permits for the area. This would reduce pressure and the number of bucks harvested. The drawback is that fewer hunters would get to hunt the area.
 
Silentstalker said:
So this will be my last post.

I don’t believe one word of the Utah DWR “counts” that say the age class decreased due to APR. that is simply false on the fish lake and Henry’s. Was not the case.
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Sure. But then again, it's easy to defend your beliefs when you refuse to acknowledge the validity of anything but your own anecdotal experience.

And that's exactly why the DWR periodically gets sick of folks crying for ineffective management strategies and proposes to give them what they are asking for, biology be damned.
 
elkassassin said:
We Found Several 2 Points That Were Left To ROT Because Some JACK-ASSES Evident-ally Shot Them Before Counting Points,Some Of Them Were Good sized 2 Points,I'm Guessing SHOOT & COUNT Later? During The Rifle Hunt!

We Found Many Descent Sized 2 Points That Were Left To ROT!

How Much Time Did You Spend In The Book Cliffs Lion Hunting?

At This Time Of year We Couldn't Tell What For Surely Killed Them?

Kinda Funny Most Were Bucks That Rotted & They Were 2 Points For The Most Part!

I'll Agree with You On: It failed when they opened it up to "Any Buck".

But that Was The Icing On The Cake!
Click to expand...
Like was mentioned better optics better self-control hopefully tards could do that.
 
elkassassin said:
Kinda Funny How The Book Cliffs Partially Rebounded!

But It Took A Closure!
Click to expand...

This I can tell you works like a charm. Close an area for 5 years. Open it and shoot B&C bucks. Worked on Pauns, Henry's, and Book Cliffs (for the first couple years anyway, till their management kicked in to use the area as a point burner).
 
johnnycake said:
Sure. But then again, it's easy to defend your beliefs when you refuse to acknowledge the validity of anything but your own anecdotal experience.

And that's exactly why the DWR periodically gets sick of folks crying for ineffective management strategies and proposes to give them what they are asking for, biology be damned.
Click to expand...
I don’t refuse all data or surveys or counts. I refuse to believe that any one style of management does or doesn’t work. Especially from our DWR who have a history of running our deer and elk into the dirt based on bad numbers.

As I stated before, I’m not in favor of this proposal as it currently stands. There are far better things we could do to improve our deer herd than change the rules every 12 months. Bigger herds breed age class and better hunter satisfaction.

We need to help the deer herd, period.
 
johnnycake said:
Care to post up a reputable study to back up that position? I'll wait.


In the meantime, this is a pretty great review of the results of mule deer APR attempts across the West and what the results were.
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I thought so rotation works 4 points first year then open it back up to any legal buck 2nd year then back to 4 points. Then reevaluate and see where we’re at.
 
Silentstalker said:
I do just fine hunting. I don’t need anything extra to kill stuff. I never asked for APR. I’m against these proposals. To say APR didn’t work is just silly. Those units were better than the LE units of today. And, it literally changed in a weekend. The opener of the year it went to any buck.
Click to expand...
I wasn’t talking to you, but congrats on your puffed up ego. You must be so proud of yourself.

Focusing 100% of the adult hunter pressure on a certain age class of deer is not the right answer. Also allowing the kids to plow whatever buck they see in the same unit is also not the right answer. You’re turning it into a hand me my trophy/special Olympics Easter egg hunt for the kids and a cut throat hunting environment for the adults. The division has done an incredible job at ******** up all types of Utah hunting in the last 20 years, just about every way possible. They have done it to the extent that none of us could have ever predicted. But just when you think they can’t make it any worse, they say hold my corn sack and watch this!
 
Bigwiffy said:
Time for Archery only across the board. Kids can use guns and guys that wear skirts......
Click to expand...
Screw the kids. At this point they can just have their video games. We won’t have the resources for them in the coming years.

I’m convinced some of the comments on here are made by people who already do wear skirts
 
elkassassin said:
We Found Several 2 Points That Were Left To ROT Because Some JACK-ASSES Evident-ally Shot Them Before Counting Points,Some Of Them Were Good sized 2 Points,I'm Guessing SHOOT & COUNT Later? During The Rifle Hunt!

We Found Many Descent Sized 2 Points That Were Left To ROT!

How Much Time Did You Spend In The Book Cliffs Lion Hunting?

At This Time Of year We Couldn't Tell What For Surely Killed Them?

Kinda Funny Most Were Bucks That Rotted & They Were 2 Points For The Most Part!

I'll Agree with You On: It failed when they opened it up to "Any Buck".

But that Was The Icing On The Cake!
Click to expand...
Yes there were some two points shot illegally, but look how many are shot now.......the majority of them.
 
slamdunk said:
Yes there were some two points shot illegally, but look how many are shot now.......the majority of them.
Click to expand...
Making it a 4 point or better will only make the shot and left issue even worse than it was when it was 3 point or better.

That and the party hunting issue will be out of control. Dad accidentally thumps 3 point and throws the kids tag on it.
 
I Won't Argue that!

But When They Admit For Every 100 Legal Deer That Were Checked There Was 48 Deer Left To ROT!

We Don't Have That Kinda Deer Numbers Anywhere In This State To Waste!

I SWEAR TO GAWD Some DRATS Can't Let Anything Live!

This Is Where HELL-F'N-RIGHT Comes In!

Oh But Everybody Hates That!

There is A Difference Between Shooting 2 Points & Tagging Them! (Which Me & My Family Will Proudly Eat Our tags Before Tagging/Shooting A PISSCUTTER,But that's Just Us!)

Versus:

Shooting 2 Points & Wasting Them!

Then Moving On & Killing More Deer!

We've Got Some Real F'N DANDIES In This State!

Do We really Have Deer Herds That Can Stand/Survive A 48% + Kill rate On Top Of What Tags Are Already Issued/Allotted?

If We Do I Haven't Been To That Part Of DRATville Yet!





slamdunk said:
Yes there were some two points shot illegally, but look how many are shot now.......the majority of them.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
I Won't Argue that!

But When They Admit For Every 100 Legal Deer That Were Checked There Was 48 Deer Left To ROT!

We Don't Have That Kinda Deer Numbers Anywhere In This State To Waste!

I SWEAR TO GAWD Some DRATS Can't Let Anything Live!

This Is Where HELL-F'N-RIGHT Comes In!

Oh But Everybody Hates That!

There is A Difference Between Shooting 2 Points & Tagging Them! (Which Me & My Family Will Proudly Eat Our tags Before Tagging/Shooting A PISSCUTTER,But that's Just Us!)

Versus:

Shooting 2 Points & Wasting Them!

Then Moving On & Killing More Deer!

We've Got Some Real F'N DANDIES In This State!

Do We really Have Deer Herds That Can Stand/Survive A 48% + Kill rate On Top Of What Tags Are Already Allotted?

If We Do I Haven't Been To That Part Of DRATville Yet!
Click to expand...
I agree with you that one wasted 2 point turns into two dead deer, 100%.

But i would have to argue the amount of wasted Deer left in the field, there's no possible way to have an accurate count on that.

But in the end, a dead 2 point is a dead deer regardless of waste or not.
The fact remains that the mass majority of young bucks are being legally taken now versus a very low percentage during an active APR unit.
 
I’m trying to figure out how we went from an opportunity type hunt structure to a trophy type hunt structure in the span of a year. The public voiced pretty hard that they wanted an opportunity hunt, so this idea originally got the axe. A year later, they bring it back up again like they’ve forgotten we even had this conversation once before.
 
Silentstalker said:
Same exact thing happened for years with the spike elk hunt. They stuck with it and look where we are at. A great opportunity hunt mixed in with LE elk.

This literally states that Utah stopped the hunt due to lack of ethics and compliance not its ineffectiveness.

I love how in every thread on these forums the DWR is a bunch of idiots and can’t manage the deer worth a dang bit when they reference APR you guys are taking their studies hook line and sinker.

I was on those mountains during that time. The hunting was so much better it can’t even be compared to today’s hunts.
Click to expand...
I hunted during that time and it absolutely worked. I hunted the wellsville and no roads it was a blast
 
Just looking at what surrounds the Pine Valley unit. I could see why they would consider turning it an LE unit (trophy potential). That unit could be a great deer area if managed a little higher buck to doe ratio, ( again I do not know the history here just speaking in facts about the NV side/AZ side but why not include Zion also ? I have 12 General points built up because I have been busy with other hunts and will be curious to see how this plays out the next couple years. Looks like I maybe glad I did. Is there a middle ground that could be reached between traditional LE and what the general units are now as far as B/D ratio? This would/will create crowding on other units and more general point creep for sure however. 7 Points for PV rifle now is a lot, but if a few older bucks start showing up with the 4pt APR in place it will be 10 points fast. Bottom line is they will never make everyone happy that is for sure and I understand why residents do not want the opportunity taken out of opportunity deer areas.
 
I'll Agree There's No Way For An Accurate Count Of Illegal Deer Being Taken/Killed/That ROTTED!

But If They Admitted To & They Did/Have,That Per every 100 Deer Legally Taken There were 48 Wasted,That's A Mighty BIG Number!

AKA Every Other Hunter On The Unit KILLED 2 Deer Or Mighty Close To It!

They May Not Of Took Em Home & I'm Living Proof A Bunch Were Wasted!

Make Ya F'N SICK!




slamdunk said:
I agree with you that one wasted 2 point turns into two dead deer, 100%.

But i would have to argue the amount of wasted Deer left in the field, there's no possible way to have an accurate count on that.

But in the end, a dead 2 point is a dead deer regardless of waste or not.
The fact remains that the mass majority of young bucks are being legally taken now versus a very low percentage during an active APR unit.
Click to expand...
 
elkassassin said:
I'll Agree There's No Way For An Accurate Count Of Illegal Deer Being Taken/Killed/That ROTTED!

But If They Admitted To & They Did/Have,That Per every 100 Deer Legally Taken There were 48 Wasted,That's A Mighty BIG Number!

AKA Every Other Hunter On The Unit KILLED 2 Deer Or Mighty Close To It!

They May Not Of Took Em Home & I'm Living Proof A Bunch Were Wasted!

Make Ya F'N SICK!
Click to expand...
I know illegal bucks were taken but most of us didn’t have binoculars or spotters then our 4X redfield or 3x9 bushnell was it and guys crossed their fingers the ones I knew of weren’t wasted but didn’t make it right for sure
Due to “technology “ the avg joe has a pair of binoculars and you put in for the tag knowing the regulations before you were able to go to any unit in the state and there will always be assholes that just can’t comply
 
Bux n Dux said:
Making it a 4 point or better will only make the shot and left issue even worse than it was when it was 3 point or better.

That and the party hunting issue will be out of control. Dad accidentally thumps 3 point and throws the kids tag on it.
Click to expand...
My vote would be doing a 3pt or better rule versus 4pt, and it should be argued at the RAC's.
 

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